Farmer Maggot was a friend worth having. Even though he didn't like the Rider's presence he was indignant that HIS land had been treated with disdain. Bravo Maggot !
EVERYONE loves Farmer Maggot. His dogs trusted him, too. They would have gone after the horse and spilled the Rider if Maggot gave the nod. ALL dogs go to heaven or Paradise, or wherever the hell we want them to be.
Great work, my friend! It was great to work alongside you again for the collab! And you have a really great choice here, for it is indeed the heart of the story of the Hobbits is in their finding of hope and courage. Cheers brother, and excellent work!
I always had a _geographical_ explanation for the Nazgul being less powerful in the Shire. They get more powerful the closer they get to Mordor and weaker the further they are from Sauron.
In my mind I kind of feel like the nazgul can use their ability to spread fear with a greater or lesser intensity depending on how useful it is for their purposes at the time. Basically they can dial it up or down according to what they're trying to achieve. They are quite different at the start of the story than how they are towards the end and I think it's because their mission changed. When we first meet them in the shire, they are trying to keep a low profile and not draw any attention to what they are doing. They are quietly gathering information and they are more interested in secrecy and stealth. Instead of exposing the locals to their full might they simply intimidate them a bit and just ask them questions or even recruit a few dodgy characters to spy and help them gather information. It would be hard to ask people for directions if they were all running away screaming. If they were causing mass panic and everyone was fleeing in terror wherever they went then it would advertise their presence to everyone for miles around and all that unwanted attention would hinder their mission. Maybe even some powerful enemies like Elrond or Glorfindel or the rangers might have tried to intervene or even kill them. So instead, they cloak themselves and suppress their full power and quietly go looking for Baggins without causing too much of a disturbance. Later on, when they are on the battlefield, there is no more need for secrecy. They openly show themselves to the enemy, dressed for war and riding on terrifying winged beasts. They are now leading an army in open all out war. Now their ability to spread fear is a potent weapon that can be deployed to maximum effect to aid their troops in battle and weaken the enemy. Now they can dial it up to the max because their mission is to completely destroy anyone who opposes them. No need to ask questions. Their master, Sauron, who controls them, has also gone from quietly building up his strength in the shadows, and secretly searching for the ring, to openly displaying his strength and unleashing his armies and all his mightiest weapons in full force with maximum effect. So the behaviour of the Nazgul mirrors the behaviour of their master and the change in their situation and purpose at different points in the story. Or maybe they get their power from Sauron and he gives them as much as they need or as much as he can spare for them to do whatever task he has given them. So when they are out leading armies to war he projects more of his power into them to make them more potent weapons. When he sends them out as messengers or spies they don't need to be quite so terrifying. Maybe when he doesn't need them they become weak and dormant. That's my thoughts on the matter at least.
@@richard0007 You've clearly given this a lot of thought. Thanks for adding new items to the stew. I would've never had the sense to even wonder what the Nazgul might be up to.
My take of the Hobbit-Nazgul interaction in the Shire was always that the Nazgul were looking for interaction and information, which mission would be hampered if everyone they met would be a whimpering wreck. So they didn't even try to invoke the similar fear as they would later on during the attack on Gondor, and the Hobbits they talked to had no idea who they were and why they should be feared. You can also contrast this to what happens at Weathertop (in addition to the Fatty Bolger example you gave): "Terror overcame Pippin and Merry, and they threw themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo's side. Frodo was hardly less terrified than his companions; he was quaking as if he was bitter cold, but his terror was swallowed up in a sudden temptation to put on the Ring." I am not saying that the Hobbits are not courageous, but I think the examples of Nazgul talking to Hobbits rather than intimidate them has more to do with the intent of the Nazgul, rather than a special courage of the Hobbits. There are also examples of humans resisting the Nazgul: Aragorn at Weathertop, Faramir and his men retreating from Osgilliath, Eowyn at the Pelennor Fields. Although I admit that all of these are major heroes in the story, unlike Gaffer. :P
There is certainly an element of that, but compare the reaction of Butterbur when they come to his door asking after Baggins. He’s clearly afraid even though their intent would have been the same there as in the Shire.
@@TolkienLorePodcast It was actually Nob, the hobbit, who was afraid: " 'These black men,' said the landlord lowering his voice. 'They're looking for Baggins, and if they mean well, then I'm a hobbit. It was on Monday, and all the dogs were yammering and the geese screaming. Uncanny, I called it. Nob, he came and told me that two black men were at the door asking for a hobbit called Baggins. Nob's hair was all stood on end. I bid the black fellows be off, and slammed the door on them; but they've been asking the same question all the way to Archet, I hear. And that Ranger, Strider, he's been asking questions, too. Tried to get in here to see you, before you'd had bite or sup, he did.' " Indeed, Butterbur seems quite combative: " 'I hope not, indeed,' said Butterbur. 'But spooks or no spooks, they won't get in The Pony so easy. Don't you worry till the morning. Nob'll say no word. No black man shall pass my doors, while I can stand on my legs. Me and my folk'll keep watch tonight; but you had best get some sleep, if you can.' " Merry feels terror as well, when spying on the Nazgul: " 'I don't know,' said Merry. 'Neither brave nor silly, I think. I could hardly help myself. I seemed to be drawn somehow. Anyway, I went, and suddenly I heard voices by the hedge. One was muttering; and the other was whispering, or hissing. I couldn't hear a word that was said. I did not creep any closer, because I began to tremble all over. Then I felt terrified, and I turned back, and was just going to bolt home, when something came behind me and I... I fell over.' " Aragorn does list Harry the Gate-keeper being white and shaking as the Nazgul interrogate him. So while I am sure that there is also the time of day and group size to consider (daytime and a lone Nazgul in the two Shire encounters), I don't think that evidence supports Hobbits being any more immune to the fear effect of the Nazgul than a brave human would. Even Butterbur comes off about the same level as Gaffer and Farmer Maggot in the above scene.
Ah yeah, forgot that was Nob. But in Butterbur’s case he had minimal interaction and likely went up to the door ready for a good telling-off. And I don’t necessarily think Hobbits are more immune. As with any kind of courage it varies by individual. But Maggot and the Gaffer seem to be the only two people in the whole story who have extended interactions with Nazgul who don’t walk away afraid. Butterbur’s interaction appears to have been short, and even Faramir was visibly shaken by his first encounter.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Given that Faramir and his men were actually attacked by the five Nazgul on their flying beasts, who were trying to panic the men and horse (and succeeding, save for Faramir, who rode back to help them), I think it is fair that Faramir was a bit shook up afterwards. I doubt Old Gaffer would have done any better! :) As for the length of the encounter, I get the impression that both Butterbur and Farmer Maggot had about the same length. Both told the Black Rider(s) to take a hike. The difference is that Farmer Maggot recounts the full conversation whereas Butterbur summarizes it. Sure, maybe Maggot had a slightly longer interaction with a bit of back and forth, but even he was feeling it ('I felt a sort of shiver down my back.') whereas Butterbur doesn't mention feeling any fear, even though there were two Black Riders to Maggot's one. Nob was clearly afraid, despite being a Hobbit in his own home (since he lives at The Prancing Pony, IIRC). In summary, I think that the Shire encounters are amply explained by: 1.) The Nazgul were not trying to terrorize the Hobbits. 2.) There was only a single Nazgul each time. 3.) It was daytime. The fact that the people being questioned were Hobbits seems, to me, be mostly immaterial, and definitely only the fourth thing down the list. We have so many examples of Hobbits feeling fear from the Nazgul and being utterly terrified that I don't think they have such special resistance, and it is more of a matter of Old Gaffer and Farmer Maggot being crusty oldsters in their own yards and without explicit threat to their safety. Although as I mentioned above, Maggot was feeling a shiver, and the Gaffer reports to Sam: "There’s been a strange customer asking for Mr. Baggins of Bag End, and he’s only just gone. I’ve sent him on to Bucklebury. Not that I liked the sound of him. He seemed mighty put out, when I told him Mr. Baggins had left his old home for good. Hissed at me, he did. It gave me quite a shudder." So we have pretty much explicit mentions of fear reactions in all Hobbit-Nazgul encounters, which goes counter to your conclusion.
I never said they had no fear reactions, just that they were relatively unaffected. And compared to Nob they certainly seem to be. Butterbur seems to have shown up to his door only to tell them off, not engage in conversation like Maggot. And bear in mind the conversation with the Gaffer is at dusk, not broad daylight.
You plumb the depths, as usual, Tolkien Geek. I can only add you might have talked about Merry's nighttime walk in Bree when he was nearly overcome by the "black breath." I don't know that he succumbed to the fear prevalent among the other peoples of ME, but he certainly didn't argue or resist in the same manner as Maggot or Gaffer Gamgee. But I believe you are right. There is a virtue in the Shire that Tolkien is showing off as often as he can in the course of the narrative. "Blessed are the poor in spirit" may account for it partially. But perhaps a better reference might be "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." The hobbits prized the important things in life much more than other people prized them--with some obvious exceptions. It is this prizing of the essentials--of the spiritual--that gives them the courage to face down the terrors of the wicked. At root, Tolkien is showing that their "normal" or "common" virtue overcomes evil no matter how great it may be. Keep up the good work! Namarie!
I always got the impression that when push comes to shove hobbits are simply far hardier (both physically and spiritually) than they seem. We see repeatedly throughout the books instances where the hobbits bounce back from traumatic experiences and quickly find cheer, like Merry and Pippin after they escape the orcs; they don't even travel out of earshot of the battle before they decide to have a quick meal. Or Merry recovering from his encounter with the Witch King far faster than Eowyn. With that one Aragorn says "But these evils can be amended, so strong and gay a spirit is in him. His grief he will not forget; but it will not darken his heart, it will teach him wisdom." Meanwhile Eowyn's heart had already been darkened by the life she had lived, and so her hurt was much more severe. I don't necessarily think it's the hobbit's homes that give them their spiritual strength (Frodo didn't hesitate to sell Bag End), but rather their love of the simple things in life, the things that really matter. Sam manages to resist the temptation of the Ring at least partly because conquering Mordor and winning glory with a large army isn't the sort of thing he's interested in the slightest, he just wants a simple garden to himself. "but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command." I think humility and the love of a simple life are what strengthen hobbits. Similarly I think the wisdom of elves is in part shown by how they're willing to sing and laugh, not taking things too seriously unless the situation is truly dire. Tolkien seems to make a statement about ambition and a desire for glory with these two races in LotR, and then contrasts it with characters like Boromir and Eowyn who do have ambition and a desire for glory, which turns out poorly for them. Eowyn is lucky she met Faramir, who is very much like elves and hobbits in what he truly loves. Without him she likely would have thrown her life away needlessly in a battle.
The Shire was a special place for a few reasons. It was one of the few places in Middle Earth where there was safety and freedom without the threat of war or other incursion - somewhere like Rivendell or Lothlorien was safe, but only at the price of vigilance, and those living there had perpetual reminders that they were actively defended. Gondor was a realm under siege and in decline. The Shire was defended without their knowledge by the Rangers (until the very end of the Third Age, when they started to realise how much they had owed to those unsavoury types who'd been loitering around scaring decent folk after they left...) giving them security without any awareness of its cost or fragility. There was also the presence of Tom Bombadil, whose self-imposed boundaries overlapped the Shire and who was so totally alien to anything the Enemy is or does, and may, or may not have played a significant part in shaping the Shire as a result. Then there was the nature of the Hobbits themselves - whose ambitions were to have their own homes and communities, seeking to be left in peace and ignored by the wider world, not to impose their will on anything beyond what they could tend with their own hands. It's very telling that the power the One Ring grants to Hobbits is to become invisible - to pass unnoticed even more than they do naturally. Arguably the most significant feature of the Shire when it comes to resisting the Enemy is that it gives the lie to the Enemy's fundamental philosophy. The Enemy believes that power is the most important thing - that your only choice is to submit to greater power, or to become one yourself. That's what the One Ring offers - submission to Sauron's will, or power to overthrow him and supplant him as the Great Power yourself. The power the Hobbits have from the Shire is to see through that lie - that shadow and darkness are not all there is, that there is light and goodness in the world. In Sam's darkest hour, the memory of light and laughter, the knowledge that there was more to the world than Mordor, fuelled hope and ultimately saved the world.
Gandalf in the Unfinished Tales in The Quest Of Erebor Chapter said, "I began to have a warm spot in my heart for them {Hobbits} in the Long Winter; They were hard put to it then, dying of cold and starving". Gandalf added, "It was by their pity as much as by their tough uncomplaining courage that they survived." That was when Gandalf saw how tough and brave with pity for one another that really enamored them to himself. In the Tale of Years Timeline it said that Gandalf during that terrible time went to the Shire to aid the Little People instead of going to Rohan and helping Helm Hammer Hand who could of used a Wizard's help.
My take on is that The Nazgûls quest for Bilbo Baggins was a secret campain. They hid in cloaks, and rode horses. The emissary at the lonely Mountain did not strike fear, only suspicion. They needed information. Just like Sauron hid and transformed himself to a beautiful figure to learn the skills from Celebrimbor, the nazgûl tone down the scaryness to get the info they need. Like spies , not intimidating warriors. The reason they are scary in battle is because they are in war. All their magic is projected to demoralise, and put fear into the hearts of men.
The farmer maggot part is o e of my favorite. It shows the simple courage and goodness of the Hobbits. Didn't know what was going on, just knew this clearly evil being wanted Frodo. Farmer Maggot's last encounter with Frodo was Frodo stealing his mushrooms. And Maggot still tells the Nazgul to scram. And when I read my 6 year old the hobbit, I made sure to emphasize Thorin's last words. How important the small inns in our lives really are. Friends, family, a home, a good meal, love, growing things.
I don't mind mentioning that I get misty eyed when I think of it, but my favorite image of all is of the rain-filled clouds and yellow mountains through the vines and red flowers of Tom's and Goldberry's pole beans. It seems more like Paradise to me than Frodo's dream of the undying lands.
Well both the old Gaffer and farmer Maggot are both old, ornery country folk. Such people are not so easily intimidated. Other hobbits may not be so resiliant. But thats just my take.
You didn't mention Sam's encounter by Weathertop. He was definitely scared. I believe Tolkien intended the Nazgul to have some control over projecting fear. of course there can be other factors
My focus was on Hobbits in the Shire itself. The courage extends outside the borders of course but the power of the Shire Gandalf mentions likely does not.
I would appreciate your thoughts on the Ring of Power that Saruman made for himself. One idea was how it may have empowered him as his will seemed to be described as stronger. Nice job on your vlogs!
I don't know. I like your reflection, but I don't think it really applies to the Nazgûl here. You overlooked the most important point to me: that causing immeasurable amounts of fear that cause everyone to flee in terror would be pretty hindering to their mission in the Shire, investigating and posing questions while trying to keep as low a profile as possible, whereas that fear is advantageous in almost every other situation we see them. Them trying to suppress the induced fear as well as they can seems to be the simplest and most probable explanation here. And if we consider the messenger of Mordor to Dáin Ironfoot a Nazgûl, which he probably was (though we don't know for sure), it supports this argument, as that was another situation where they would probably want to tone down the terror factor, and from what little information we get, the result seems to be pretty similar: the Dwarves seem a bit frightened and feel that something isn't quite right with the dude, but they don't cower in insurmountable dread.
I think you're touching on a few VERY important themes. I've been trying to promote these for a good long time. The hobbits are, in essence, post-apocalypse Christians. They live in a peaceful, rural world where no one lives off the sweat of somebody else's brow, where there is no great wealth, greed is not admired, where they make their own tools and implements (rather than use slave-produced cr*p from China), they eat food raised and prepared by themselves, and they are happy, generous, and social. They love song and beer, and they respect the past. And CRITICALLY, somewhere Tolkien notes (I think it is in the last chapters), that NO Hobbit has ever murdered another. That' record is broken in spades every weekend in Chicago. There is much to admire about the hobbits.
The shire has been protected by the rangers for a really long time. The Hobbits of the shire might not know to fear in the same way that animals in places with no humans don't know to fear us.
Happy Tolkien Reading Day! This is an excellent analysis, and I greatly appreciate your reference to the Beatitudes. Tolkien's faith informs his stories again and again, and I think readers can understand the narratives more deeply if they are familiar with some of the major the biblical references (although of course that's not an absolute requirement for enjoying the stories :-)
I want to give a nod to Fatty Bolger. He wasn’t used as a character in the movies, but he still managed to find a spark of courage when the chips were down. Here’s a toast to all of the heroes who found their courage in the most unlikely instances!
Well he didn't know about the Nazgul; he wasn't brave so much as SMART, and he got out as soon as he sensed danger; and Kamul waited too long to attack the house.
I have two points to suggest. I have no textual bases for these, but I'd love your corrections if I'm wrong! For the black riders, I always assumed that they had the capacity to control the dread they inspire to a certain degree. In the battle of osgiliath, in the pelenor, and traveling across mordor they have every reason to increase the dread. However, if they're searching house to house, and offering gold and bribes, they are using a different tactic than dread to inspire obedience and it would be to their advantage to decrease it to whatever degree they could. This wouldn't be the case for Fatty Bolgar, since they were attacking him, explaining a bit of that difference. I don't know if there are any textual justifications, but thats been my head cannon. The second point I wanted to add, Tolkien was inspired by a lot of European folklore, and most of those collections were created in the mid 1800's by romantic nationalists in various counties. Most of those folklore collections were created with a desire to "Discover the spirit" of whatever country they were in in order to to create a sense of national identity that was being lost to the cosmopolitanism of the cities. They largely they drew from rural communities because those communities were less impacted by the cosmopolitanism. Tolkien would have undoubtedly be inspired by the theory underlying the folklore, and there are clear romantic nationalist strains in his writing. Locating spiritual powers in rural communities like the shire follows along with this ethic of romantic nationalism.
I think your first point is definitely accurate as far as it goes, but given the reaction of Nob in Bree under similar circumstances it’s hard to reconcile everything merely on the grounds that they can dial the terror to whatever level they like.
One of the weirdest things to me is that Aragorn and the hobbits could fight off five Nazgul, but the Witch King alone is said to possibly be 'a match for Gandalf' (and Gandalf says this may or may not be true). But I wonder if he was later empowered further as Sauron grew in power and gave him more power?
Worth noting that hobbits were supposed to be aprticularly hard to daunt. Sméagol was able to lie to Sauron, and Sauron knew it but couldn't convince him otherwise. Something about them in general is just really, really tough, when it comes to being mentally dominated. Though Merry was terrified on the fields of Pelennor with the Witch King.
Is it anything to do with the Brandywine River? I don’t recall mich special about the Brandywine in itself, but it’s definitely a divide between the kind of cultures of Hobbits one side and the other. Maybe somehow that’s related to Merry being “Black Breath”ed twice but also helping to take down the Witch King. Something about his Hobbit “genetics” makes him more susceptible and those from Hobbiton-direction less so?
Like Crocodile Dundee said about the aborigines they don’t so much own the land as belong to it! One thing that does occur to me is that the Dwarves don’t seem to be affected much by the Nazgul like the hobbits. Perhaps as the Nazgul were all originally human they were more able to exert their power on humans. Hobbits were unknown to them. I also wonder whether Gollum’s terror of them was more due to his torment in Barad Dur and fear of losing the Ring forever than the influence of the Black Breath. Elves also seem relatively immune as well for similar reasons I suspect.
I've just been re-reading Lord of the Rings. What I find interesting about the Hobbits in the book is that the individuals that are part of the Fellowship, and certain individuals that help them on their journey, are courageous and steadfast. But as a people I think Hobbits as described on the page are not as admirable. They are clannish and closed-minded. They look upon people they don't directly know with a great deal of suspicion. Even towards other Hobbits, if they live farther away than walking distance, Hobbits tend to view them as Outsider, not to be trusted. Hobbits in the Shire look down upon those living on the Brandywine River as suspect because they swim or boat on the water. They seem to be proud of their own ignorance, and suspicious of education in others. Even though Bilbo returned decades ago with great wealth, they still look at him judgmentally, and talk smack about him behind his back, while still hoping to grab some of his wealth for themselves. Even Frodo is looked upon less than favorably, because his parents made the bad decision to die while boating.
Pagans are deeply connected to their lands and typically agrarian. They are earth based religions with strong community bonds. So I agree with most of your assessment but I don't think it falls along religious lines.
What about the encounter that Gloin tells of about an emissary from Mordor who comes to offer the dwarves great rewards if they can lead them to the hobbits? The way Gloin tells it, the dwarf who spoke to the representative from Mordor (Dain, I think) didn't sound terrified, but just suspicious of the motive. I always thought it was a black rider who went to the dwarves. That is one exception of all other mortal creatures who apparently didn't have such horrific fear of them. Gimli, though, certainly had that kind of fear of the paths of the dead, so we aren't led to believe that dwarves have any kind of special courage. How does all of this affect your take on the hobbits being the only non-powerful beings who are not so terrified of the nazgul?
@@TolkienLorePodcast Thank you for taking time to consider my question & giving me an answer! It certainly does fit with the profile Tolkien gives us of dwarves. Happy Tolkien Reading Day!
Remember that, even rings of power only make dwarves greedy, leading to their ruin. They are too stubborn and strong willed to be dominated, but gold, metals, precious stones are irresistible for them.
This is another reason why I think Hobbits were created by Eru specifically to destroy the ring, return balance to Middle Earth, and usher in the time of Man.
I know that the professor reworked and changed the story many times but I cant help but think that the difference between the nazguls in the shire and in the rest of the book is a remnant of what the story was early in Tolkiens mind and what it later became. The depth of the world created by Tolkien is amazing and I can understand the inclination to analyze it like the real one but some times it gets a bit overboard in my mind.
Tolkien definitely didn’t start with the idea of it becoming so grand, but he did rework early passages to match up with later developments so you can’t really explain it away quite that easily.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Eh did you read my first sentence? But anyway my point is that all we are talking about is the output of JRRT:s mind and not a real world. So we should not expect everything to be coherent in that world and that there is a real truth to be found if we break it down enough.
Could it be that when the nazgul were interacting with farmer Maggot and The Gaffer that they did not want to terrorize them because that was not their goal and so didn't reveal their true power and just wanted to get information from them, but when they approached fattie bolger they did for they were hunting for the ring
Maybe the hobbits just werent scared of them because they werent particularly acting threatening and the hobbits hadnt heard of their reputation before.
I have a question concerning the poem "The adventures of Tom Bombadil" I quote: "But one day Tom, he went and caught the river daughter, ... He caught her, held her fast! ... Said Tom Bombadil: 'Here's my pretty maiden! You shall come home with me! ... You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother In her deep weedy pool: there you'll find no lover.' " end quote. Is that just me, or does Tom Bombadil kidnap Goldberry? I find that the poem kind of reads like it and that kind of has lessened my enjoyment of it. I will give it that, the german translation is worse in that regard and I am not sure, if I had come to that conclusion had I not read the german version first (I'm from Germany, and not regularly read poems, so that seemed easier). However, I came to that conclusion and I hope that someone can prove me wrong. Thank you and have a great day :)
One could read it that way but I don’t think it’s necessary. The fact that there’s a wedding feast seems an indication Goldberry was willing, and given her own history in the poem of dunking Tom in the river you could see it as playful rather than malicious, with Tom being aggressive in the wooing.
I just have looked it up again and reread the end in its entirety. That indeed seems way more plausible. I guess the german version just kind of primed me in a bad way. It was quite a while that I read the poem, but my mind back than jumped to that conclusion and stayed with it. So, thanks a lot :)
The Hobbits couldn't - not if Sauron put all his willpower into destroying them directly through his Ringwraiths. But the wraiths weren't there to start a war, they were there to seize the Ring as quickly and as secretly as possible, and also the ringbearer so that he could be questioned as to what the powers against Sauron knew about the situation. Frodo probably would have been stabbed by a Morgul-blade regardless of whether he put up any resistance, so that his spirit could be quickly dominated and brought under Sauron's control.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Both. I really respect your premise - if we accept that the Nazgûl had lesser power in the Shire because of what Aragorn says, then what you say has some merit. But I think it's more likely in Tolkien's way of thinking that the Nazgûl's power to terrorise was something that they turned up and down. It wasn't like a constant emotional drone at full power. They were in the Shire as spies and kidnappers, not as warriors and terrorisers. So they toned it down. Also, Sauron's force of will wasn't in them to conquer and dominate the Hobbits in their path.
@@TolkienLorePodcast When we consider that the Nazgûl have the power to create a kind of despairing unease from a distance - for example on the march to the Black Gate where they fly high above - then this certainly must be a power they can turn on and off. Otherwise the Breelanders would be feeling it from a much closer distance with at least one of the Riders within the city walls. And yet we get no hint of that at the Prancing Pony from any of the characters.
@@TolkienLorePodcast One last thing to consider. I think that it was the Mouth of Sauron who tried negotiating with Daín for news of Bilbo. But most people think it was a Black Rider. Fair enough. So if it was, then the Rider must have been able to tone down the terror factor, or he'd be useless as an emissary. So too in the Shire.
Hobbits don't really care about the outside world and their riches and adventures, the dragons and what have you. All they desire is their home. Come at that? They will stand up to defend it no matter who is in front of them. That is where their courage comes from.
Warning, this is long! The Battle of Bywater is not the first time the hobbits have had to fight. The Battle of Greenfields was against a force of orcs from Mount Gram led by their orc king and the hobbits won the battle and this was after much of Eriador had been overrun by the orcs! After the hobbits killed the orc king the orcs fled Eriador within the year! The Hobbits saved Eriador! The hobbits were ready to fight Sharky's goons but the mayor was under arrest. The Thain was stuck in his own lands and was leading the defences. The Master of Buckland was having his own issues, so they had lost their leaders. Yes Fatty had led a resistance, but had been defeated and was not close to the leaders. Merry and Pippin were the heirs to the Thain and the Master, Sam was well known amongst many of the other hobbits of the area as he was a worker like them. One of their own, and Frodo was respected by many locals and was close kin to the Master and had grown up in Buckland after his parents died as his mother had been a Brandybuck, until Bilbo took him in. Also, the Travellers had seen things far worse than bullies and knew they had their people and were on their land. They also knew their mood and looks gave them power and emboldened their people. Merry and Pippin had experienced real battles and come out without serious aftereffects. What they were facing now were not soldiers and they were fewer. Another power the Shire has is most hobbits are kind to everyone, but mostly their friends. This is why Merry didn't run from the Witch-King. He stayed with Eowyn, his friend, and is why Pippin went to Beregond before rushing to get Gandalf to save Faramir and why Pippin saved Beregond before the Black Gate, they were friends and why Sam went into Cirith Ungol when he learnt Frodo was alive, they were friends. It's why Sam, Merry and Pippin said they were going with Frodo, they were friends. It's why Sam, Merry and Pippin didn't leave Frodo when the Nazgul attacked their camp. They were friends. Frodo had the influence of the Ring wanting to be found and the fear of the Nazgul and that the Witch-King, the most powerful, was there against him. The Hobbits greatest power, one they learn without knowing it, is the power of loyalty and friendship. That is why it was so easy for them to take back their land once they had leaders. Leaders they knew and were friends with. The reason the hobbits didn't fear the Nazgul is that they are not used to being afraid as danger almost never comes so far west. This is something the other land of Middle-Earth don't have. They are used to war and the fear of dying or their family dying or of enslavement. The power of the Shire is friendship and lack of fear.
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Love this topic, mellon! I've always enjoyed the part where Farmer Maggot tells the nazgul to buzz-off. haha. Great work, my friend!
And the Gaffer.
If they’d try to steal his mushrooms they would have been toast!🤣
Farmer Maggot was a friend worth having. Even though he didn't like the Rider's presence he was indignant that HIS land had been treated with disdain. Bravo Maggot !
EVERYONE loves Farmer Maggot. His dogs trusted him, too. They would have gone after the horse and spilled the Rider if Maggot gave the nod. ALL dogs go to heaven or Paradise, or wherever the hell we want them to be.
Great work, my friend! It was great to work alongside you again for the collab! And you have a really great choice here, for it is indeed the heart of the story of the Hobbits is in their finding of hope and courage. Cheers brother, and excellent work!
I love how the Big Folk are regularly consternated by the hobbits' resistance to fear and dread.
Olórin :
The weak will be our salvation when the wise fail.
Eru Iluvatar was playing us all along 🤣
I always had a _geographical_ explanation for the Nazgul being less powerful in the Shire.
They get more powerful the closer they get to Mordor and weaker the further they are from Sauron.
And don't forget, Master Tom was next door in the Old Forest. Funny how no riders showed up there while the boys were paying a visit.
@@kevinrussell1144,
That's an excellent point.
@@fuferito what a polite and thoughtful board, populated by fans who have thought deeply about what they've read. Tolkien would be pleased, I think.
In my mind I kind of feel like the nazgul can use their ability to spread fear with a greater or lesser intensity depending on how useful it is for their purposes at the time.
Basically they can dial it up or down according to what they're trying to achieve.
They are quite different at the start of the story than how they are towards the end and I think it's because their mission changed.
When we first meet them in the shire, they are trying to keep a low profile and not draw any attention to what they are doing. They are quietly gathering information and they are more interested in secrecy and stealth. Instead of exposing the locals to their full might they simply intimidate them a bit and just ask them questions or even recruit a few dodgy characters to spy and help them gather information. It would be hard to ask people for directions if they were all running away screaming.
If they were causing mass panic and everyone was fleeing in terror wherever they went then it would advertise their presence to everyone for miles around and all that unwanted attention would hinder their mission. Maybe even some powerful enemies like Elrond or Glorfindel or the rangers might have tried to intervene or even kill them. So instead, they cloak themselves and suppress their full power and quietly go looking for Baggins without causing too much of a disturbance.
Later on, when they are on the battlefield, there is no more need for secrecy. They openly show themselves to the enemy, dressed for war and riding on terrifying winged beasts. They are now leading an army in open all out war. Now their ability to spread fear is a potent weapon that can be deployed to maximum effect to aid their troops in battle and weaken the enemy. Now they can dial it up to the max because their mission is to completely destroy anyone who opposes them. No need to ask questions.
Their master, Sauron, who controls them, has also gone from quietly building up his strength in the shadows, and secretly searching for the ring, to openly displaying his strength and unleashing his armies and all his mightiest weapons in full force with maximum effect.
So the behaviour of the Nazgul mirrors the behaviour of their master and the change in their situation and purpose at different points in the story.
Or maybe they get their power from Sauron and he gives them as much as they need or as much as he can spare for them to do whatever task he has given them. So when they are out leading armies to war he projects more of his power into them to make them more potent weapons. When he sends them out as messengers or spies they don't need to be quite so terrifying. Maybe when he doesn't need them they become weak and dormant.
That's my thoughts on the matter at least.
@@richard0007 You've clearly given this a lot of thought. Thanks for adding new items to the stew. I would've never had the sense to even wonder what the Nazgul might be up to.
My take of the Hobbit-Nazgul interaction in the Shire was always that the Nazgul were looking for interaction and information, which mission would be hampered if everyone they met would be a whimpering wreck. So they didn't even try to invoke the similar fear as they would later on during the attack on Gondor, and the Hobbits they talked to had no idea who they were and why they should be feared.
You can also contrast this to what happens at Weathertop (in addition to the Fatty Bolger example you gave):
"Terror overcame Pippin and Merry, and they threw themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo's side. Frodo was hardly less terrified than his companions; he was quaking as if he was bitter cold, but his terror was swallowed up in a sudden temptation to put on the Ring."
I am not saying that the Hobbits are not courageous, but I think the examples of Nazgul talking to Hobbits rather than intimidate them has more to do with the intent of the Nazgul, rather than a special courage of the Hobbits.
There are also examples of humans resisting the Nazgul: Aragorn at Weathertop, Faramir and his men retreating from Osgilliath, Eowyn at the Pelennor Fields. Although I admit that all of these are major heroes in the story, unlike Gaffer. :P
There is certainly an element of that, but compare the reaction of Butterbur when they come to his door asking after Baggins. He’s clearly afraid even though their intent would have been the same there as in the Shire.
@@TolkienLorePodcast It was actually Nob, the hobbit, who was afraid:
" 'These black men,' said the landlord lowering his voice. 'They're looking for Baggins, and if they mean well, then I'm a hobbit. It was on Monday, and all the dogs were yammering and the geese screaming. Uncanny, I called it. Nob, he came and told me that two black men were at the door asking for a hobbit called Baggins. Nob's hair was all stood on end. I bid the black fellows be off, and slammed the door on them; but they've been asking the same question all the way to Archet, I hear. And that Ranger, Strider, he's been asking questions, too. Tried to get in here to see you, before you'd had bite or sup, he did.' "
Indeed, Butterbur seems quite combative:
" 'I hope not, indeed,' said Butterbur. 'But spooks or no spooks, they won't get in The Pony so easy. Don't you worry till the morning. Nob'll say no word. No black man shall pass my doors, while I can stand on my legs. Me and my folk'll keep watch tonight; but you had best get some sleep, if you can.' "
Merry feels terror as well, when spying on the Nazgul:
" 'I don't know,' said Merry. 'Neither brave nor silly, I think. I could hardly help myself. I seemed to be drawn somehow. Anyway, I went, and suddenly I heard voices by the hedge. One was muttering; and the other was whispering, or hissing. I couldn't hear a word that was said. I did not creep any closer, because I began to tremble all over. Then I felt terrified, and I turned back, and was just going to bolt home, when something came behind me and I... I fell over.' "
Aragorn does list Harry the Gate-keeper being white and shaking as the Nazgul interrogate him.
So while I am sure that there is also the time of day and group size to consider (daytime and a lone Nazgul in the two Shire encounters), I don't think that evidence supports Hobbits being any more immune to the fear effect of the Nazgul than a brave human would. Even Butterbur comes off about the same level as Gaffer and Farmer Maggot in the above scene.
Ah yeah, forgot that was Nob. But in Butterbur’s case he had minimal interaction and likely went up to the door ready for a good telling-off. And I don’t necessarily think Hobbits are more immune. As with any kind of courage it varies by individual. But Maggot and the Gaffer seem to be the only two people in the whole story who have extended interactions with Nazgul who don’t walk away afraid. Butterbur’s interaction appears to have been short, and even Faramir was visibly shaken by his first encounter.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Given that Faramir and his men were actually attacked by the five Nazgul on their flying beasts, who were trying to panic the men and horse (and succeeding, save for Faramir, who rode back to help them), I think it is fair that Faramir was a bit shook up afterwards. I doubt Old Gaffer would have done any better! :)
As for the length of the encounter, I get the impression that both Butterbur and Farmer Maggot had about the same length. Both told the Black Rider(s) to take a hike. The difference is that Farmer Maggot recounts the full conversation whereas Butterbur summarizes it. Sure, maybe Maggot had a slightly longer interaction with a bit of back and forth, but even he was feeling it ('I felt a sort of shiver down my back.') whereas Butterbur doesn't mention feeling any fear, even though there were two Black Riders to Maggot's one. Nob was clearly afraid, despite being a Hobbit in his own home (since he lives at The Prancing Pony, IIRC).
In summary, I think that the Shire encounters are amply explained by:
1.) The Nazgul were not trying to terrorize the Hobbits.
2.) There was only a single Nazgul each time.
3.) It was daytime.
The fact that the people being questioned were Hobbits seems, to me, be mostly immaterial, and definitely only the fourth thing down the list. We have so many examples of Hobbits feeling fear from the Nazgul and being utterly terrified that I don't think they have such special resistance, and it is more of a matter of Old Gaffer and Farmer Maggot being crusty oldsters in their own yards and without explicit threat to their safety. Although as I mentioned above, Maggot was feeling a shiver, and the Gaffer reports to Sam:
"There’s been a strange customer asking for Mr. Baggins of Bag End, and he’s only just gone. I’ve sent him on to Bucklebury. Not that I liked the sound of him. He seemed mighty put out, when I told him Mr. Baggins had left his old home for good. Hissed at me, he did. It gave me quite a shudder."
So we have pretty much explicit mentions of fear reactions in all Hobbit-Nazgul encounters, which goes counter to your conclusion.
I never said they had no fear reactions, just that they were relatively unaffected. And compared to Nob they certainly seem to be. Butterbur seems to have shown up to his door only to tell them off, not engage in conversation like Maggot. And bear in mind the conversation with the Gaffer is at dusk, not broad daylight.
You plumb the depths, as usual, Tolkien Geek. I can only add you might have talked about Merry's nighttime walk in Bree when he was nearly overcome by the "black breath." I don't know that he succumbed to the fear prevalent among the other peoples of ME, but he certainly didn't argue or resist in the same manner as Maggot or Gaffer Gamgee. But I believe you are right. There is a virtue in the Shire that Tolkien is showing off as often as he can in the course of the narrative. "Blessed are the poor in spirit" may account for it partially. But perhaps a better reference might be "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." The hobbits prized the important things in life much more than other people prized them--with some obvious exceptions. It is this prizing of the essentials--of the spiritual--that gives them the courage to face down the terrors of the wicked. At root, Tolkien is showing that their "normal" or "common" virtue overcomes evil no matter how great it may be. Keep up the good work! Namarie!
I always got the impression that when push comes to shove hobbits are simply far hardier (both physically and spiritually) than they seem. We see repeatedly throughout the books instances where the hobbits bounce back from traumatic experiences and quickly find cheer, like Merry and Pippin after they escape the orcs; they don't even travel out of earshot of the battle before they decide to have a quick meal.
Or Merry recovering from his encounter with the Witch King far faster than Eowyn. With that one Aragorn says "But these evils can be amended, so strong and gay a spirit is in him. His grief he will not forget; but it will not darken his heart, it will teach him wisdom." Meanwhile Eowyn's heart had already been darkened by the life she had lived, and so her hurt was much more severe.
I don't necessarily think it's the hobbit's homes that give them their spiritual strength (Frodo didn't hesitate to sell Bag End), but rather their love of the simple things in life, the things that really matter. Sam manages to resist the temptation of the Ring at least partly because conquering Mordor and winning glory with a large army isn't the sort of thing he's interested in the slightest, he just wants a simple garden to himself.
"but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command."
I think humility and the love of a simple life are what strengthen hobbits. Similarly I think the wisdom of elves is in part shown by how they're willing to sing and laugh, not taking things too seriously unless the situation is truly dire. Tolkien seems to make a statement about ambition and a desire for glory with these two races in LotR, and then contrasts it with characters like Boromir and Eowyn who do have ambition and a desire for glory, which turns out poorly for them. Eowyn is lucky she met Faramir, who is very much like elves and hobbits in what he truly loves. Without him she likely would have thrown her life away needlessly in a battle.
well said
Brilliant.
The Shire was a special place for a few reasons. It was one of the few places in Middle Earth where there was safety and freedom without the threat of war or other incursion - somewhere like Rivendell or Lothlorien was safe, but only at the price of vigilance, and those living there had perpetual reminders that they were actively defended. Gondor was a realm under siege and in decline. The Shire was defended without their knowledge by the Rangers (until the very end of the Third Age, when they started to realise how much they had owed to those unsavoury types who'd been loitering around scaring decent folk after they left...) giving them security without any awareness of its cost or fragility.
There was also the presence of Tom Bombadil, whose self-imposed boundaries overlapped the Shire and who was so totally alien to anything the Enemy is or does, and may, or may not have played a significant part in shaping the Shire as a result.
Then there was the nature of the Hobbits themselves - whose ambitions were to have their own homes and communities, seeking to be left in peace and ignored by the wider world, not to impose their will on anything beyond what they could tend with their own hands. It's very telling that the power the One Ring grants to Hobbits is to become invisible - to pass unnoticed even more than they do naturally.
Arguably the most significant feature of the Shire when it comes to resisting the Enemy is that it gives the lie to the Enemy's fundamental philosophy. The Enemy believes that power is the most important thing - that your only choice is to submit to greater power, or to become one yourself. That's what the One Ring offers - submission to Sauron's will, or power to overthrow him and supplant him as the Great Power yourself. The power the Hobbits have from the Shire is to see through that lie - that shadow and darkness are not all there is, that there is light and goodness in the world. In Sam's darkest hour, the memory of light and laughter, the knowledge that there was more to the world than Mordor, fuelled hope and ultimately saved the world.
Gandalf in the Unfinished Tales in The Quest Of Erebor Chapter said, "I began to have a warm spot in my heart for them {Hobbits} in the Long Winter; They were hard put to it then, dying of cold and starving". Gandalf added, "It was by their pity as much as by their tough uncomplaining courage that they survived." That was when Gandalf saw how tough and brave with pity for one another that really enamored them to himself. In the Tale of Years Timeline it said that Gandalf during that terrible time went to the Shire to aid the Little People instead of going to Rohan and helping Helm Hammer Hand who could of used a Wizard's help.
Happy Tolkien reading day everyone!
My take on is that The Nazgûls quest for Bilbo Baggins was a secret campain.
They hid in cloaks, and rode horses.
The emissary at the lonely Mountain did not strike fear, only suspicion.
They needed information. Just like Sauron hid and transformed himself to a beautiful figure to learn the skills from Celebrimbor, the nazgûl tone down the scaryness to get the info they need. Like spies , not intimidating warriors.
The reason they are scary in battle is because they are in war. All their magic is projected to demoralise, and put fear into the hearts of men.
The farmer maggot part is o e of my favorite. It shows the simple courage and goodness of the Hobbits. Didn't know what was going on, just knew this clearly evil being wanted Frodo. Farmer Maggot's last encounter with Frodo was Frodo stealing his mushrooms. And Maggot still tells the Nazgul to scram.
And when I read my 6 year old the hobbit, I made sure to emphasize Thorin's last words. How important the small inns in our lives really are. Friends, family, a home, a good meal, love, growing things.
I don't mind mentioning that I get misty eyed when I think of it, but my favorite image of all is of the rain-filled clouds and yellow mountains through the vines and red flowers of Tom's and Goldberry's pole beans. It seems more like Paradise to me than Frodo's dream of the undying lands.
That was a pleasant and deep dive into different types of fear and the "foundation" of some characters. Also nice collaborating with you :)
Well both the old Gaffer and farmer Maggot are both old, ornery country folk. Such people are not so easily intimidated. Other hobbits may not be so resiliant. But thats just my take.
You didn't mention Sam's encounter by Weathertop. He was definitely scared. I believe Tolkien intended the Nazgul to have some control over projecting fear. of course there can be other factors
My focus was on Hobbits in the Shire itself. The courage extends outside the borders of course but the power of the Shire Gandalf mentions likely does not.
Always love these in depth discussions! Great job as usual ❤️
I would appreciate your thoughts on the Ring of Power that Saruman made for himself. One idea was how it may have empowered him as his will seemed to be described as stronger. Nice job on your vlogs!
I don't know. I like your reflection, but I don't think it really applies to the Nazgûl here. You overlooked the most important point to me: that causing immeasurable amounts of fear that cause everyone to flee in terror would be pretty hindering to their mission in the Shire, investigating and posing questions while trying to keep as low a profile as possible, whereas that fear is advantageous in almost every other situation we see them. Them trying to suppress the induced fear as well as they can seems to be the simplest and most probable explanation here.
And if we consider the messenger of Mordor to Dáin Ironfoot a Nazgûl, which he probably was (though we don't know for sure), it supports this argument, as that was another situation where they would probably want to tone down the terror factor, and from what little information we get, the result seems to be pretty similar: the Dwarves seem a bit frightened and feel that something isn't quite right with the dude, but they don't cower in insurmountable dread.
Great video my friend! With the hobbits, ignorance is bliss! Happy Tolkien Reading Day!
Hamfast "Gaffer" Gamgee was old and grumpy, you don't mess with old and grumpy!
Excellent video! Your knowledge within this legendarium is vast :)
Thanks!
You can take the hobbit out of the shire, but you can't take the shire out of the hobbit
Great topic, sir! And Happy Tolkien Reading Day to thee!
I think you're touching on a few VERY important themes. I've been trying to promote these for a good long time. The hobbits are, in essence, post-apocalypse Christians. They live in a peaceful, rural world where no one lives off the sweat of somebody else's brow, where there is no great wealth, greed is not admired, where they make their own tools and implements (rather than use slave-produced cr*p from China), they eat food raised and prepared by themselves, and they are happy, generous, and social. They love song and beer, and they respect the past. And CRITICALLY, somewhere Tolkien notes (I think it is in the last chapters), that NO Hobbit has ever murdered another. That' record is broken in spades every weekend in Chicago. There is much to admire about the hobbits.
The shire has been protected by the rangers for a really long time. The Hobbits of the shire might not know to fear in the same way that animals in places with no humans don't know to fear us.
Awesome topic, you've gotta love the Hobbits! Happy Tolkien Reading Day!
Happy Tolkien Reading Day! This is an excellent analysis, and I greatly appreciate your reference to the Beatitudes. Tolkien's faith informs his stories again and again, and I think readers can understand the narratives more deeply if they are familiar with some of the major the biblical references (although of course that's not an absolute requirement for enjoying the stories :-)
I want to give a nod to Fatty Bolger. He wasn’t used as a character in the movies, but he still managed to find a spark of courage when the chips were down. Here’s a toast to all of the heroes who found their courage in the most unlikely instances!
Well he didn't know about the Nazgul; he wasn't brave so much as SMART, and he got out as soon as he sensed danger; and Kamul waited too long to attack the house.
"Its best to love first what you were fitted to love" is a very powerful statement. One that seems to be loosing its meaning as of late, sadly.
I have two points to suggest. I have no textual bases for these, but I'd love your corrections if I'm wrong! For the black riders, I always assumed that they had the capacity to control the dread they inspire to a certain degree. In the battle of osgiliath, in the pelenor, and traveling across mordor they have every reason to increase the dread. However, if they're searching house to house, and offering gold and bribes, they are using a different tactic than dread to inspire obedience and it would be to their advantage to decrease it to whatever degree they could. This wouldn't be the case for Fatty Bolgar, since they were attacking him, explaining a bit of that difference. I don't know if there are any textual justifications, but thats been my head cannon.
The second point I wanted to add, Tolkien was inspired by a lot of European folklore, and most of those collections were created in the mid 1800's by romantic nationalists in various counties. Most of those folklore collections were created with a desire to "Discover the spirit" of whatever country they were in in order to to create a sense of national identity that was being lost to the cosmopolitanism of the cities. They largely they drew from rural communities because those communities were less impacted by the cosmopolitanism. Tolkien would have undoubtedly be inspired by the theory underlying the folklore, and there are clear romantic nationalist strains in his writing. Locating spiritual powers in rural communities like the shire follows along with this ethic of romantic nationalism.
I think your first point is definitely accurate as far as it goes, but given the reaction of Nob in Bree under similar circumstances it’s hard to reconcile everything merely on the grounds that they can dial the terror to whatever level they like.
Interesting discussion, thanks
One of the weirdest things to me is that Aragorn and the hobbits could fight off five Nazgul, but the Witch King alone is said to possibly be 'a match for Gandalf' (and Gandalf says this may or may not be true). But I wonder if he was later empowered further as Sauron grew in power and gave him more power?
Wow some EPIC comments here 😍 been a subscriber for probably 2 years now love you simple style but where's the swords bro!?
I’m temporarily in an apartment waiting on a house to be built. I’ll have a more permanent setup soon(ish).
Worth noting that hobbits were supposed to be aprticularly hard to daunt. Sméagol was able to lie to Sauron, and Sauron knew it but couldn't convince him otherwise. Something about them in general is just really, really tough, when it comes to being mentally dominated. Though Merry was terrified on the fields of Pelennor with the Witch King.
Is it anything to do with the Brandywine River? I don’t recall mich special about the Brandywine in itself, but it’s definitely a divide between the kind of cultures of Hobbits one side and the other.
Maybe somehow that’s related to Merry being “Black Breath”ed twice but also helping to take down the Witch King. Something about his Hobbit “genetics” makes him more susceptible and those from Hobbiton-direction less so?
Well, this could be a short answer.
Because Hobbits are hidden badasses.
The entirety of the LotR and The Hobbit back up my theory.
Like Crocodile Dundee said about the aborigines they don’t so much own the land as belong to it! One thing that does occur to me is that the Dwarves don’t seem to be affected much by the Nazgul like the hobbits. Perhaps as the Nazgul were all originally human they were more able to exert their power on humans. Hobbits were unknown to them. I also wonder whether Gollum’s terror of them was more due to his torment in Barad Dur and fear of losing the Ring forever than the influence of the Black Breath. Elves also seem relatively immune as well for similar reasons I suspect.
I chalked up hobbits resistance to the ring / wraiths to not having had a ring made to control them in the first place.
That doesn’t really explain it because the One Ring’s power is over the other rings, not races generally.
I've just been re-reading Lord of the Rings. What I find interesting about the Hobbits in the book is that the individuals that are part of the Fellowship, and certain individuals that help them on their journey, are courageous and steadfast. But as a people I think Hobbits as described on the page are not as admirable. They are clannish and closed-minded. They look upon people they don't directly know with a great deal of suspicion. Even towards other Hobbits, if they live farther away than walking distance, Hobbits tend to view them as Outsider, not to be trusted. Hobbits in the Shire look down upon those living on the Brandywine River as suspect because they swim or boat on the water. They seem to be proud of their own ignorance, and suspicious of education in others. Even though Bilbo returned decades ago with great wealth, they still look at him judgmentally, and talk smack about him behind his back, while still hoping to grab some of his wealth for themselves. Even Frodo is looked upon less than favorably, because his parents made the bad decision to die while boating.
LOVED it!
What do you make of Merry's interactions with the Nazgul at Bree, kind of atypical wasn't it?
I don't remember anybody else going comatose
That seems to have been deliberate on their part-they were trying to overcome him and so intentionally ramped up the terror.
@@TolkienLorePodcast cool flex
The Nazgul are no match for 3000 torches and pitchforks!
Pagans are deeply connected to their lands and typically agrarian. They are earth based religions with strong community bonds. So I agree with most of your assessment but I don't think it falls along religious lines.
What about the encounter that Gloin tells of about an emissary from Mordor who comes to offer the dwarves great rewards if they can lead them to the hobbits? The way Gloin tells it, the dwarf who spoke to the representative from Mordor (Dain, I think) didn't sound terrified, but just suspicious of the motive. I always thought it was a black rider who went to the dwarves. That is one exception of all other mortal creatures who apparently didn't have such horrific fear of them. Gimli, though, certainly had that kind of fear of the paths of the dead, so we aren't led to believe that dwarves have any kind of special courage. How does all of this affect your take on the hobbits being the only non-powerful beings who are not so terrified of the nazgul?
Well, let’s just say that IF it was a Nazgul, Dwarves are built to be indomitable.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Thank you for taking time to consider my question & giving me an answer! It certainly does fit with the profile Tolkien gives us of dwarves. Happy Tolkien Reading Day!
Remember that, even rings of power only make dwarves greedy, leading to their ruin. They are too stubborn and strong willed to be dominated, but gold, metals, precious stones are irresistible for them.
Just a quick question. Is your greeting Westron or some strange elvish tongue, and how does it translate? I like it.
Mae govannen is Sindarin Elvish for “well met.” Glorfindel uses it when he meets Strider and the hobbits.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Mae govannen, and many thanks, brother.
This is another reason why I think Hobbits were created by Eru specifically to destroy the ring, return balance to Middle Earth, and usher in the time of Man.
may be a slepping or dead dragon in shire
I know that the professor reworked and changed the story many times but I cant help but think that the difference between the nazguls in the shire and in the rest of the book is a remnant of what the story was early in Tolkiens mind and what it later became. The depth of the world created by Tolkien is amazing and I can understand the inclination to analyze it like the real one but some times it gets a bit overboard in my mind.
Tolkien definitely didn’t start with the idea of it becoming so grand, but he did rework early passages to match up with later developments so you can’t really explain it away quite that easily.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Eh did you read my first sentence? But anyway my point is that all we are talking about is the output of JRRT:s mind and not a real world. So we should not expect everything to be coherent in that world and that there is a real truth to be found if we break it down enough.
Could it be that when the nazgul were interacting with farmer Maggot and The Gaffer that they did not want to terrorize them because that was not their goal and so didn't reveal their true power and just wanted to get information from them, but when they approached fattie bolger they did for they were hunting for the ring
Yes, but in Bree the effect seems stronger even when they have the same incentive to dial back the fear.
Maybe the hobbits just werent scared of them because they werent particularly acting threatening and the hobbits hadnt heard of their reputation before.
I have a question concerning the poem "The adventures of Tom Bombadil" I quote:
"But one day Tom, he went and caught the river daughter,
...
He caught her, held her fast!
...
Said Tom Bombadil: 'Here's my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me!
...
You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother
In her deep weedy pool: there you'll find no lover.' " end quote.
Is that just me, or does Tom Bombadil kidnap Goldberry? I find that the poem kind of reads like it and that kind of has lessened my enjoyment of it. I will give it that, the german translation is worse in that regard and I am not sure, if I had come to that conclusion had I not read the german version first (I'm from Germany, and not regularly read poems, so that seemed easier). However, I came to that conclusion and I hope that someone can prove me wrong.
Thank you and have a great day :)
One could read it that way but I don’t think it’s necessary. The fact that there’s a wedding feast seems an indication Goldberry was willing, and given her own history in the poem of dunking Tom in the river you could see it as playful rather than malicious, with Tom being aggressive in the wooing.
I just have looked it up again and reread the end in its entirety. That indeed seems way more plausible. I guess the german version just kind of primed me in a bad way. It was quite a while that I read the poem, but my mind back than jumped to that conclusion and stayed with it. So, thanks a lot :)
Heavyweight convo here
The Hobbits couldn't - not if Sauron put all his willpower into destroying them directly through his Ringwraiths. But the wraiths weren't there to start a war, they were there to seize the Ring as quickly and as secretly as possible, and also the ringbearer so that he could be questioned as to what the powers against Sauron knew about the situation. Frodo probably would have been stabbed by a Morgul-blade regardless of whether he put up any resistance, so that his spirit could be quickly dominated and brought under Sauron's control.
Did you watch the video or just go off the title?
@@TolkienLorePodcast Both. I really respect your premise - if we accept that the Nazgûl had lesser power in the Shire because of what Aragorn says, then what you say has some merit. But I think it's more likely in Tolkien's way of thinking that the Nazgûl's power to terrorise was something that they turned up and down. It wasn't like a constant emotional drone at full power. They were in the Shire as spies and kidnappers, not as warriors and terrorisers. So they toned it down. Also, Sauron's force of will wasn't in them to conquer and dominate the Hobbits in their path.
Sure, but they still spooked Nob pretty badly in Bree and they had the same mission there.
@@TolkienLorePodcast When we consider that the Nazgûl have the power to create a kind of despairing unease from a distance - for example on the march to the Black Gate where they fly high above - then this certainly must be a power they can turn on and off. Otherwise the Breelanders would be feeling it from a much closer distance with at least one of the Riders within the city walls. And yet we get no hint of that at the Prancing Pony from any of the characters.
@@TolkienLorePodcast One last thing to consider. I think that it was the Mouth of Sauron who tried negotiating with Daín for news of Bilbo. But most people think it was a Black Rider. Fair enough. So if it was, then the Rider must have been able to tone down the terror factor, or he'd be useless as an emissary. So too in the Shire.
Hobbits don't really care about the outside world and their riches and adventures, the dragons and what have you. All they desire is their home. Come at that? They will stand up to defend it no matter who is in front of them. That is where their courage comes from.
Yes but the house of Bagend is a very rich house with plenty. Just saying. The are not anywhere close to meek.
Warning, this is long!
The Battle of Bywater is not the first time the hobbits have had to fight. The Battle of Greenfields was against a force of orcs from Mount Gram led by their orc king and the hobbits won the battle and this was after much of Eriador had been overrun by the orcs! After the hobbits killed the orc king the orcs fled Eriador within the year! The Hobbits saved Eriador!
The hobbits were ready to fight Sharky's goons but the mayor was under arrest. The Thain was stuck in his own lands and was leading the defences.
The Master of Buckland was having his own issues, so they had lost their leaders. Yes Fatty had led a resistance, but had been defeated and was not close to the leaders.
Merry and Pippin were the heirs to the Thain and the Master, Sam was well known amongst many of the other hobbits of the area as he was a worker like them. One of their own, and Frodo was respected by many locals and was close kin to the Master and had grown up in Buckland after his parents died as his mother had been a Brandybuck, until Bilbo took him in.
Also, the Travellers had seen things far worse than bullies and knew they had their people and were on their land. They also knew their mood and looks gave them power and emboldened their people. Merry and Pippin had experienced real battles and come out without serious aftereffects. What they were facing now were not soldiers and they were fewer.
Another power the Shire has is most hobbits are kind to everyone, but mostly their friends. This is why Merry didn't run from the Witch-King. He stayed with Eowyn, his friend, and is why Pippin went to Beregond before rushing to get Gandalf to save Faramir and why Pippin saved Beregond before the Black Gate, they were friends and why Sam went into Cirith Ungol when he learnt Frodo was alive, they were friends. It's why Sam, Merry and Pippin said they were going with Frodo, they were friends. It's why Sam, Merry and Pippin didn't leave Frodo when the Nazgul attacked their camp. They were friends. Frodo had the influence of the Ring wanting to be found and the fear of the Nazgul and that the Witch-King, the most powerful, was there against him.
The Hobbits greatest power, one they learn without knowing it, is the power of loyalty and friendship. That is why it was so easy for them to take back their land once they had leaders. Leaders they knew and were friends with. The reason the hobbits didn't fear the Nazgul is that they are not used to being afraid as danger almost never comes so far west. This is something the other land of Middle-Earth don't have. They are used to war and the fear of dying or their family dying or of enslavement.
The power of the Shire is friendship and lack of fear.
Tom Bombadil is the answer.
Not in the books, still as books were hobbits would defeat a Nazgul really easy : /
Mate just shave your head bald. No shame in that. You're handsome already with a full beard and moustache
Well I wouldn’t call it a full beard bu thanks. 😂 But in all honesty I like my hair, even if it is super thin lol
I believe the "poor" in "poor in spirit" means to be humble.