The Denethor stuff might be the worst change in the movies IMO. Denethor in the book is, for all his flaws, still a competent leader and a shrewd military commander with unbelievable willpower (he withstood Sauron's attempts to dominate him via the Palantir) who was pitted against hopeless odds and mentally manipulated by Sauron until he cracked and went nuts once his last son fell, dying in a tragic scene where a broken desperate man dies by his own hand. In the movie he is an irrational incompetent madman who does irrational and crazy things because he is crazy. He doesn't have any of the reasons and explanations for his behavior he gets in the book, and far from his tragic death in the book his film death is absurd and silly and is played for laughs. A complete disgrace, worse than even movie Faramir
I don't even think he went nuts. In the book his sons are dead or dying, his city is surrounded, the enemy's master ring is days away from being captured, and he's just seen in the palantir that even IF they win the battle, there are other armies pushing all over the front line, Dale, to Lorien, to Pelargir. And more than this still waiting to be deployed as a reserve. There is literally no way to win this war. So he calls it quits, resigns his commission and sets the fire. He's pretty upset but having to do this, so seems emotional, but his actions aren't those of a madman. Just a man who has given in to despair.
You are the youtuber from whom I am most anticipating a War of the Rohirrim review. I just saw it and I am not displeased, though I'm still mulling it over. It was decent enough to deserve a second viewing for me to cement my thoughts, and whatever you might have to say would also help me weigh its merits. I appreciate that you are a critical thinker without being a "critical drinker."
Not sure about beer but wine certainly. Generally, the movies made the Elves in general and Legolas in particular more serious. In the books, it was him who is the one cracking jokes, not Gimli.
Even if Legolas has never had a drink in his life, in the movie he is this know-it-all loremaster type of character who knows everything about everything so him not knowing about something as common as wine and beer breaks that part of his character. If they wanted to make the joke without creating a hole in Legolas' character they could have had him know what beer is but to never had tasted it
i just re-watched the scene there is no inference that Legolas does not know what beer or alcohol is. Only thing that might is that he asks "so its a drinking game?" which is more a statement of questioning what the game is rather than what alcohol is. Ironically i think this scene is specifically saying Legolas is a lush- he is not even affected by the beer. Probably because him and the elf royal family are drinking middle earth equivalent of Everclear.
What makes Denethor the book character so fascinating is that while the realm of Gondor is in steep decline and he is "just" a Steward he is still noble, wise, and strong. That unfortunently is not as apparent in the movie.
Love these deep geekish dives. I have 3 daughters, 2 of whom have read the book (maybe not as many times as me lol) and one who hasn't though she enjoyed the films. We were watching one of the Extended versions one time, and she was there with a friend, and she said 'see this is what they are like watching these films, they go into every detail about how the extended films are different to the cinema ones, and why they are different to the book, and which one is closer to the book' 🤣 Btw- you got me with the black outer wall of Minas Tirith.. need to look that up now 🙂
You learn something new everyday. I have read the books many many times and I never knew or at least never picked up that the outer walls of Minas Tirith are black😱
For when Gandalf rides out to get Faramir and Pippin is with him; in the commentary to the extended edition, Peter Jackson says they did it that way because they forgot to film a scene with Gandalf riding by himself so they had to reuse a scene they had already filmed with Pippin. It has nothing to do with setting up a meeting between Pippin and faramir. 👋😁
Indeed. I heard that in the original screenplay/storyboard, Gandalf and Pippin arrived at minas tirith and See The Retreat in real-time. So Gandalf rides to help them. Which is why Pippin is still with him. Can only guess as to the reasons for the change, but yeah, they didn't have a shot of him riding without Pippin, so it looks like he said "I must save them, here pippin, ride with me to fight these demons!"
Faramir and Eowyn sort of popped up as a couple with no backstory in the movie; if you haven't read the books, that particular detail would have come as a bit of a surprise.
If you just watch the movie you might not even realise they're together now, it's a blink and you miss it -kind of scene. They might as well have left it out altogether
In many instances, I don’t think Jackson borrowed from Tolkien to pay homage or to delight fans of the books, but because the writers knew they could not replicate the eloquence and gravitas of Tolkien’s “noble” diction. This is something the hack writers for Rings of Power are either too proud or too stupid to realize.
I do wonder how the movies could have better shown the effect of the Nazgûl on mortals. The fear and despair they were able to inflict on their enemies always fascinated me as an ability to wield in battle. Which then also played up the importance of Gandalf having one of the three rings to help counter that effect.
There is a slight contradiction about the wall of Minas Tirith. When Pippin first sees the city we read "the walls passed from looming grey to white, blushing faintly in the dawn" ('Minas Tirith'). Only in 'The Siege of Gondor' is the main wall described as "like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth". Orthanc itself is definitely black, but possibly the wall is only like it, not the same. Of course, "whiteness" is relative, and even a dark grey substance can look white against an unlit background (like the Moon, for example). Or maybe to begin with only the upper walls are in sunlight.
I think the “walls” described as white are probably the upper levels, because only the outer wall is described as dark, and the city is called the White City after all.
To me, the changes from book to film that I dislike are not so much the details, but more the character changes and motivation. I am specifically thinking of Denethor and Faramir.
Absolutely. Getting details like the color of Minas Tirth's walls wrong and even adding entire scenes like the elves in Helm's Deep are acceptable changes, but completely rewriting entire characters into much worse versions of themselves is not. Denethor and Faramir are the worst, Theoden, Gimli and Elrond are bad too. Aragorn is different too but IMO not as bad, he is basically book Faramir which isn't a downgrade, but it's still an unnecessary change
Yes, the elvish princeling knows what slchohol is. That being said, even as a mostly Tolkien purist, the drinking game between Gimli and Legolas is one of my favorite scenes in the movie.
I always took it that Legolas was being a bit disingenuous about the drinking - pretending he didn't know about it so Gimli would think he had an easy win. A hustle. If I were picking nits I would be more concerned about Saruman falling from Orthanc after being stabbed by Grima (never happened) and the whole handling of the Palantir in that scene. Yhete sre a whole load of lines given to the wrong people, people turning up ehete they were never present (Aragorn at least tried to heal Frodo with Athelas and met eith Glirfindel, one of the more powerful elves, not with Arwen who was never there). The whole thing of Paths of tge Dead and its treatment really irritated me when I watched the film the week of its release. The horses bolting was annoying and the Stone of Erech being right at the exit of the Paths was jarring too, I agree. I have taken tge view since, that the adaptation is so much better than I ever thought was achievable (remember the dreadful animated version?) that I now just accept it and put it down to artistic licence.
@TolkienLorePodcast Oh yes, I understand that. You could make a video as long as The Fellowship if you chose. Overall, I still thought it was better done than I thought possible. (Pity he didn't do that with a single-movie Hobbit.. )
My take on his facial expression is that he’s cautious of the unknown, not that he knows already that he dislikes it. Which is why we see him draining cups later with no problem.
@@TolkienLorePodcast it shows him react to the smell. I approach beer similarly lol. Being able to down them for the sake of the contest doesn’t negate the idea that he doesn’t like beer
I really don't like the line swaps - often lines end up being shorn of their context and significance. The Witch King breaking Gandalf's staff is completely inappropriate - for all his power he is ultimately a Man, and Gandalf is a Maia recently endowed with new authority - and the Witch King simply doesn't have the *authority* to break Gandalf's staff, not just a tool but a symbol and vessel of his authority from the Valar. Denethor is better in the book, Théoden is better in the book, Faramir is better in the book, Éomer is better in the book (Jackson reduces him to a spear character) , Elrond is better in the book, Aragorn is bette in the book (doesn't behave like a dishonourable thug with the Mouth of Sauron and doesn't have the tedious "I don't want to be king" angst), the Ents are better (decide to go to war all by themselves)....even the king of the Dead is better. My fellow countryman systematically diminishes characters in the interests of cinematic conflict and sometimes I think because he just doesn't understand a pre-modern culture.
The wall not being the color of Orthanc, and the Pelennor Area being just an empty field just rubbed me the wrong way back then, when in one of the documentaries they were bragging how they specifically made sure this place was to be as book accurate as possible. I'd say they are right if they mean by that having a valley with a river in it, but all the other little details are omitted quite willingly I'd say. No Rammas Echor, or cultivated farmland. Just makes me curious why people say things that are not true on the face of it.
I’m not a fan of the cinematography in any of these movies. It looks CGI or New Zealand to me. I don’t feel like I’m in middle earth for the most part.
Agreed, the empty scrub lands were not as good as the populated farms and villages. Also, I always hated the LOOK of Pelenor, and Ithilian as shown from minas tirith.. The mountains of shadow just Jump out of the land, there is no Ithilian, and there are no foothills. Just scrubland and then tall mountains. These mountains are meant to be 50+ miles away. For those who haven't done so, find a picture of 3000m mountains from 50 miles away. They're small... And blurry.
@@JackChurchill101 I like to compare pelennor to the rhine valley actually as it is similar in size, and there you barely see the other end of the valleys mountain or hill region, so yeah I'd agree, and the book itself hints at the fact that the mountains of shadow are just faintly visible in the far horizon. PS: The rhine valley is also full of vineyards and farmland.. So it made it easy for me to imagine. You don't actually see the highlands if you are in the valley itself, only if you get to higher ground do you see the actual hilltops.
Yes, that's right. I remember being north of Carcassonne in France looking towards the Pyrenees. They were a long straight line on the horizon. That's kinda how I imagine them for Mordor. From what is seen on screen, optically, I would guess it's five miles to osgiliath, then maybe five more to the abrupt mountains of shadow. A silly oversight, for a crew that crew up around mountains. But everything in TLOTR looks too small. - biggest example is after helm's deep, the heroes looking to the east and seeing red light from mount Doom on the horizon. - that's meant to be like 250-300 miles away?!!!!
I thank you for defending Denethor. He doesn't deserve the treatment he got from Peter Jackson
I quite agree; nevertheless, James Noble gave a first-rate performance in the role.
The Denethor stuff might be the worst change in the movies IMO. Denethor in the book is, for all his flaws, still a competent leader and a shrewd military commander with unbelievable willpower (he withstood Sauron's attempts to dominate him via the Palantir) who was pitted against hopeless odds and mentally manipulated by Sauron until he cracked and went nuts once his last son fell, dying in a tragic scene where a broken desperate man dies by his own hand.
In the movie he is an irrational incompetent madman who does irrational and crazy things because he is crazy. He doesn't have any of the reasons and explanations for his behavior he gets in the book, and far from his tragic death in the book his film death is absurd and silly and is played for laughs. A complete disgrace, worse than even movie Faramir
I don't even think he went nuts.
In the book his sons are dead or dying, his city is surrounded, the enemy's master ring is days away from being captured, and he's just seen in the palantir that even IF they win the battle, there are other armies pushing all over the front line, Dale, to Lorien, to Pelargir. And more than this still waiting to be deployed as a reserve.
There is literally no way to win this war.
So he calls it quits, resigns his commission and sets the fire. He's pretty upset but having to do this, so seems emotional, but his actions aren't those of a madman. Just a man who has given in to despair.
@@exantiuse497Sheesh. Tell us how you really feel, haha.
Thanks for continuing these videos, very interesting!
You are the youtuber from whom I am most anticipating a War of the Rohirrim review. I just saw it and I am not displeased, though I'm still mulling it over. It was decent enough to deserve a second viewing for me to cement my thoughts, and whatever you might have to say would also help me weigh its merits. I appreciate that you are a critical thinker without being a "critical drinker."
Legolas is the son of Thranduil, king of the wood elves. He would know what beer and wine are, and mead. No question.
The wood elves drink wood alcohol..... 😐
Not sure about beer but wine certainly. Generally, the movies made the Elves in general and Legolas in particular more serious. In the books, it was him who is the one cracking jokes, not Gimli.
Even if Legolas has never had a drink in his life, in the movie he is this know-it-all loremaster type of character who knows everything about everything so him not knowing about something as common as wine and beer breaks that part of his character.
If they wanted to make the joke without creating a hole in Legolas' character they could have had him know what beer is but to never had tasted it
i just re-watched the scene there is no inference that Legolas does not know what beer or alcohol is. Only thing that might is that he asks "so its a drinking game?" which is more a statement of questioning what the game is rather than what alcohol is. Ironically i think this scene is specifically saying Legolas is a lush- he is not even affected by the beer. Probably because him and the elf royal family are drinking middle earth equivalent of Everclear.
Mellon Geek: You remind me of so many details I had forgotten. For that alone, you deserve your title of Lore Master. Namarie.
What makes Denethor the book character so fascinating is that while the realm of Gondor is in steep decline and he is "just" a Steward he is still noble, wise, and strong. That unfortunently is not as apparent in the movie.
Love these deep geekish dives. I have 3 daughters, 2 of whom have read the book (maybe not as many times as me lol) and one who hasn't though she enjoyed the films. We were watching one of the Extended versions one time, and she was there with a friend, and she said 'see this is what they are like watching these films, they go into every detail about how the extended films are different to the cinema ones, and why they are different to the book, and which one is closer to the book' 🤣 Btw- you got me with the black outer wall of Minas Tirith.. need to look that up now 🙂
You learn something new everyday. I have read the books many many times and I never knew or at least never picked up that the outer walls of Minas Tirith are black😱
See?! Lol
For when Gandalf rides out to get Faramir and Pippin is with him; in the commentary to the extended edition, Peter Jackson says they did it that way because they forgot to film a scene with Gandalf riding by himself so they had to reuse a scene they had already filmed with Pippin. It has nothing to do with setting up a meeting between Pippin and faramir. 👋😁
Indeed. I heard that in the original screenplay/storyboard, Gandalf and Pippin arrived at minas tirith and See The Retreat in real-time. So Gandalf rides to help them. Which is why Pippin is still with him.
Can only guess as to the reasons for the change, but yeah, they didn't have a shot of him riding without Pippin, so it looks like he said "I must save them, here pippin, ride with me to fight these demons!"
Faramir and Eowyn sort of popped up as a couple with no backstory in the movie; if you haven't read the books, that particular detail would have come as a bit of a surprise.
If you just watch the movie you might not even realise they're together now, it's a blink and you miss it -kind of scene. They might as well have left it out altogether
In many instances, I don’t think Jackson borrowed from Tolkien to pay homage or to delight fans of the books, but because the writers knew they could not replicate the eloquence and gravitas of Tolkien’s “noble” diction. This is something the hack writers for Rings of Power are either too proud or too stupid to realize.
I do wonder how the movies could have better shown the effect of the Nazgûl on mortals. The fear and despair they were able to inflict on their enemies always fascinated me as an ability to wield in battle. Which then also played up the importance of Gandalf having one of the three rings to help counter that effect.
There is a slight contradiction about the wall of Minas Tirith. When Pippin first sees the city we read "the walls passed from looming grey to white, blushing faintly in the dawn" ('Minas Tirith'). Only in 'The Siege of Gondor' is the main wall described as "like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth".
Orthanc itself is definitely black, but possibly the wall is only like it, not the same. Of course, "whiteness" is relative, and even a dark grey substance can look white against an unlit background (like the Moon, for example). Or maybe to begin with only the upper walls are in sunlight.
I think the “walls” described as white are probably the upper levels, because only the outer wall is described as dark, and the city is called the White City after all.
@@TolkienLorePodcast its definitely not certain. For the record most artists always depict Minas Tirith as being white.
To me, the changes from book to film that I dislike are not so much the details, but more the character changes and motivation. I am specifically thinking of Denethor and Faramir.
Absolutely. Getting details like the color of Minas Tirth's walls wrong and even adding entire scenes like the elves in Helm's Deep are acceptable changes, but completely rewriting entire characters into much worse versions of themselves is not. Denethor and Faramir are the worst, Theoden, Gimli and Elrond are bad too. Aragorn is different too but IMO not as bad, he is basically book Faramir which isn't a downgrade, but it's still an unnecessary change
Yes, the elvish princeling knows what slchohol is. That being said, even as a mostly Tolkien purist, the drinking game between Gimli and Legolas is one of my favorite scenes in the movie.
Time to see if I'm a superfan.
To me the operative explanation is that the ring appropriates power to the person possessing it according to his stature.
Explanation of what?
I always took it that Legolas was being a bit disingenuous about the drinking - pretending he didn't know about it so Gimli would think he had an easy win. A hustle.
If I were picking nits I would be more concerned about Saruman falling from Orthanc after being stabbed by Grima (never happened) and the whole handling of the Palantir in that scene.
Yhete sre a whole load of lines given to the wrong people, people turning up ehete they were never present (Aragorn at least tried to heal Frodo with Athelas and met eith Glirfindel, one of the more powerful elves, not with Arwen who was never there).
The whole thing of Paths of tge Dead and its treatment really irritated me when I watched the film the week of its release.
The horses bolting was annoying and the Stone of Erech being right at the exit of the Paths was jarring too, I agree.
I have taken tge view since, that the adaptation is so much better than I ever thought was achievable (remember the dreadful animated version?) that I now just accept it and put it down to artistic licence.
Well, for these videos the only bits I’m picking are things that cause internal contradictions. If I nitpicked everything it’d take way fore videos 😂
@TolkienLorePodcast Oh yes, I understand that. You could make a video as long as The Fellowship if you chose.
Overall, I still thought it was better done than I thought possible. (Pity he didn't do that with a single-movie Hobbit.. )
I don’t think the idea is Legolas doesn’t know what beer is, rather that he dislikes it.
My take on his facial expression is that he’s cautious of the unknown, not that he knows already that he dislikes it. Which is why we see him draining cups later with no problem.
@@TolkienLorePodcast it shows him react to the smell. I approach beer similarly lol. Being able to down them for the sake of the contest doesn’t negate the idea that he doesn’t like beer
@Themiddleborne I might have to watch that scene again to see what you’re talking about.
Ahoy there! Superfans. I'm really digging that War of the Rohirrim tee-hee!
Hi there fellow fan. What's the animation like? What's do you like about it?
All artists concepts are white M.T., Gondor 14:15 ?
You can find both colors if you hunt around but the black outer wall is rarer in my experience.
@TolkienLorePodcast I will. Thank you
I was looking for a test. Thank you!🎉
I really don't like the line swaps - often lines end up being shorn of their context and significance.
The Witch King breaking Gandalf's staff is completely inappropriate - for all his power he is ultimately a Man, and Gandalf is a Maia recently endowed with new authority - and the Witch King simply doesn't have the *authority* to break Gandalf's staff, not just a tool but a symbol and vessel of his authority from the Valar.
Denethor is better in the book, Théoden is better in the book, Faramir is better in the book, Éomer is better in the book (Jackson reduces him to a spear character) , Elrond is better in the book, Aragorn is bette in the book (doesn't behave like a dishonourable thug with the Mouth of Sauron and doesn't have the tedious "I don't want to be king" angst), the Ents are better (decide to go to war all by themselves)....even the king of the Dead is better. My fellow countryman systematically diminishes characters in the interests of cinematic conflict and sometimes I think because he just doesn't understand a pre-modern culture.
The wall not being the color of Orthanc, and the Pelennor Area being just an empty field just rubbed me the wrong way back then, when in one of the documentaries they were bragging how they specifically made sure this place was to be as book accurate as possible. I'd say they are right if they mean by that having a valley with a river in it, but all the other little details are omitted quite willingly I'd say. No Rammas Echor, or cultivated farmland. Just makes me curious why people say things that are not true on the face of it.
I’m not a fan of the cinematography in any of these movies. It looks CGI or New Zealand to me. I don’t feel like I’m in middle earth for the most part.
Agreed, the empty scrub lands were not as good as the populated farms and villages.
Also, I always hated the LOOK of Pelenor, and Ithilian as shown from minas tirith.. The mountains of shadow just Jump out of the land, there is no Ithilian, and there are no foothills. Just scrubland and then tall mountains.
These mountains are meant to be 50+ miles away. For those who haven't done so, find a picture of 3000m mountains from 50 miles away. They're small... And blurry.
@@JackChurchill101 I like to compare pelennor to the rhine valley actually as it is similar in size, and there you barely see the other end of the valleys mountain or hill region, so yeah I'd agree, and the book itself hints at the fact that the mountains of shadow are just faintly visible in the far horizon.
PS: The rhine valley is also full of vineyards and farmland.. So it made it easy for me to imagine. You don't actually see the highlands if you are in the valley itself, only if you get to higher ground do you see the actual hilltops.
Yes, that's right. I remember being north of Carcassonne in France looking towards the Pyrenees. They were a long straight line on the horizon. That's kinda how I imagine them for Mordor.
From what is seen on screen, optically, I would guess it's five miles to osgiliath, then maybe five more to the abrupt mountains of shadow. A silly oversight, for a crew that crew up around mountains.
But everything in TLOTR looks too small. - biggest example is after helm's deep, the heroes looking to the east and seeing red light from mount Doom on the horizon. - that's meant to be like 250-300 miles away?!!!!
@@JackChurchill101 yea id assume they did it for dramatic reasoning though it does take away the scale of it all