How Do You Solve a Problem Like Track Limits?
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2024
- Track Limits is the discussion that goes on and on and on. He cut here, he extended there, why was X punished and not Y?
It seems the FIA can't get its backside in gear when it comes to this thing. It's confusing. It ruins the show, it makes morons on the internet spout opinions as though they are facts without bothering to check said facts because they hate Max Verstappen, or they hate Lewis Hamilton.
So let's see what we can do to fix the situation.
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By having a race director who's not scared of the teams. Like the guy from wec and elms who tells the teams what the rules are and punish them for breaking them.
Well, money have the power to scare you.
@@R4M_Tommy at the end of the day they pay to race on the track, not on the run off. But f1 will be f1 and do what ever they want compared to every other series in motorsport
Eduardo Dr Freitas(sp?) in WEC. He's the best director I've ever heard. Sounds like the Formula E director is trying to copy him - he does exactly the same thing in the same way regarding FCY timing, and to be fair, FE has some very strict rules that it applies to everyone. I'm very unimpressed with F1's director and stewardship these days. Though stewards have been a dodgy subject for decades!
Eduardo Freitas is such a good director
@@y_fam_goeglyd i agree even the IMSA sportscar director is strict. Eduardo Dr Freitas is the best director in all of Motorsport though and is the leading person for others to learn from. Imagine if he did 1 GP weekend how interesting and shaken up that weekend could be in F1. Teams complaining its unfair the punishments and he is like "nope thats the rules and track limits" Would be a reality wake up for the drivers and teams as tbf they need it and too stop whining. As you don't get complaints by teams and drivers about track limits in WEC they know the rules and get on with it.
Just get Codemasters to enforce the rules since the F1 games are strict as hell with track limits
Yeah, the F1 games are strict, but they are spot on accurate, they are enforced exactly how it says in the sporting regulations. It says a lot when a SIMCADE is doing a better job that real life.
@@McPlayer8t I mean not really. Having this corner cutting system is perfect for quali. But in the race you can get a warning because someone pushed you off the track. Frederic Rasmussen lost an Esports race due to that.
That is precisely why you get three warnings, if you do get pushed off, you get another chance before you get a penalty. It is also pretty easy to get away with running wide if you don’t want the warning, you just lift off a bit and you’ll get away with it. Obviously you lose time, but it is better than a penalty. My point was that the F1 game polices track limits exactly how they are written in the rules, whereas IRL, they hand out these event notes telling all the teams that the stewards are too lazy to do their job properly at corners x, y and z. There is literally no upside to letting drivers run off track to gain time. It looks bad, it confuses everyone, they change the rules mid-weekend, it’s a mess. They just need to put their foot down and say no, you cannot keep a smashing the track limits, it really is not that difficult. If that means giving Hamilton 30s worth of penalties for his driving in Bahrain, so be it, they will respect track limits if you force them to. I liked the system in Russia where you get no warning for cutting the chicane, it made drivers respect track limits there.
@@McPlayer8t the game sometimes hands out instant time penalties without warning, when it thinks you gained a significant advantage. for example by straightlining a chicane.
@@HeavyMetalGamingHD well as it should be
I've been advocating for putting a strip of grass and/or gravel before the tarmac runoff, so that drivers don't wanna exceed track limits, while keeping the safety of tarmac runoff. I personally don't like it when a race is decided from the steward's room, so to reduce that, have the track punish the behavior rather than the stewards.
absolutely agree. the track should force the driver to respect the limits. one caveat: no stupid ass annoying sausage curbs. those are highly annoying for the drivers and destroy the flow of the track not to mention possible damage to the car and/or the drivers back when the car goes over them.
yeah that isnt there because of bikes
@@dylancotton2061 I'm fairly sure bikes prefer lots of gravel because it is more likely to slow down bike and rider, while cars tend to skip over the gravel
@@Revvenge the fastest way to slow a bike is with the brakes a strip of gravel between track and tarmac run off will get riders killed.
@@richardbudd5334 There has to be a way to cover the gravel strips for bikes then.
In V8 Supercars, they have a transponder fitted to the underside of the car along the centreline, and the offending corner(s) (eg the turn 1+2 chicane at Adelaide) have a magnetic strip that triggers if you cut it too much. Each driver gets 3 strikes and will get a drive through if they go for a 4th offence. Seems like a good solution to me for F1 as well.
It also adds a bit of strategy to the equation where a driver that behaved himself can, late in the race, use it as a way of defending against another driver on newer tires. I'm a fan!
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the SRO series also uses this system. Otherwise how would they be able to police cars going through Eau Rouge and Raidillon for 24 hours straight?
AI image recognition software can also do this and the camera feeds are already there.
8:54
Or, and hear me out. Police every corner. Because as you said earlier, if their wasn't an advantage to be had the drivers wouldn't be extending the corner.
Exactly, they are just making excuses for being lazy.
or maybe they made an actual error and didn't gain an advantage. Pro drivers are WAY better than the rest of us, but they aren't perfect (yet)! ;)
@@mikespencer9913 remember when the FIA said you couldn't extend at turn 4 anymore and lewis stopped the next lap. They can stay between the white lines if you enforce it. Ots only when you give them the chance to exploit the limits that they will take advantage of it.
Never been any problems with track limits at Monaco.
I wonder why.
I agree, as harsh at it will be just put up something like of those nascar SAFER barriers, just redesigned for open wheel cars, at the corners that are historically ignored. I mean if they can develop the rules to govern the most advanced cars in the world, and come up with things like the HALO, they can surely institute barriers that won't kill the driver yet keep them on the track.
@@anydaynow01 Actually, I believe the SAFER barriers were originally intended for open wheel cars, and first installed at Indianapolis.
Monaco has self-enforcing track limits. Can't argue with a nice barrier.
This.
build tracks on top of mountains with shear cliffsand have the track end at the cliff.
Ahh, the Pikes Peak strategy.
Want run off? You can try the mountain side, but you will be judged.
Can't tell if you're referring to Pikes Peak or Pescara.
Spa
@@ThePapaja1996 Spa has cliffs?!!
Ya hold every race at Geldingadalur. Track limit is a caldera.
Just make it the whole track. You need to have at least 2 wheels in between the white lines that define the track AT ALL TIMES. It makes it a lot easier to police. As for penalties, make it the same like they do in video games for all I care. I'm also one that struggles to keep my car on the track at all times, but the difference is that I'm a casual virtual racer, these guys are pros. Pros should be able to do this no problem. That said, I still try with all my might to keep within the bounds of the race track
This.
don' go ova t' white line
simple as
-Big Baz
I have been saying this since before this was a big thing.
Ate mercedes
Ate ferrari
Luv me garagistas
Simpel as
This is no more difficult than calling ins and outs in tennis. It can easily be done objectively by machine. But, if they did that, the FIA couldn't favor Mercedes and Hamilton at every opportunity. And no one wants that.
Isn’t that the way it’s always been? I seem to have the idea that it was always the rule.
@@johnkluge3421 Now who would ever do such a thing as that? Preference of the more dominant team? Really??? Not that it has ever happened in the history of anything has it? ;) lol
It’s real simple, when all four tires cross the white line or the edge of the curbing, you’re out of track limits and unless you had a safety reason for doing so.... you get a penalty. I really don’t understand why this is so difficult.
*edit* - the reason why I strongly suggest that this rule be kept as simple as possible, and be enforced as often and consistently as possible is because as you’ve said.... give the driver’s an inch, and they’ll take a foot; because that’s their job, it’s what they’re supposed to do. Don’t make statements about how you’re going to enforce this corner or that, don’t talk about where there’s an advantage and where there isn’t, don’t concern yourself with the grass, just set a very simple boundary and enforce it viciously. If there was a safety concern such as a driver running wide to avoid another car or to gather up their car after starting to lose it... waive the penalty, but when you see upon review that someone had been extending the same corner over and over again throughout the race, not penalizing the guilty driver sends a message, that it’s ok if we’re not looking, which is giving the drivers an inch, which they’ll go on to abuse....
Rainbow road has pretty good track limits
One suggestion I've heard which (superficially at least) sounds attractive is to have a metre strip of gravel around the edge of the track before the tarmac runoffs. The theory goes that that'll stop drivers cutting/extending corners, but it won't make much difference for accidents of cars or bikes.
I guess until it's formally evaluated or tried, we won't know
I think 2 wheels on the White line is the perfect measurement, also the documents of which corner limit is being monitored is public information, the TV network I watch F1 had access to it, so did Chain Bear F1
They're trying out something new in MotoGP this year, those green bits outside the curb have pressure sensors in them, and so far they're incredibly accurate.
So the monitored corners are set, rigged up and the human element of detention is essentially removed too. Could see similar coming to F1 if they continue to work as intended..
Take a way one championship point per corner cut that would stop cutting
...
10. Haas -113 points
Embed glass in the white lines. The first few times they hit it the drivers will get massive grip, but their tires will wear out in no time
This makes actually sense except for quali
I really hate the fact that they don’t police track limits at every corner, it just sounds bad, and even lazy, when they say it. They are literally admitting “Yeah, we are not going to do our job at turn 4.” and it makes things far more complicated than they need to be. Just stay between the white lines, EVERYWHERE, it says it in the sporting regs, no need for the changes in the event notes.
I completely agree. Like y'all have hyper cars worth millions of dollars... But you can't buy cameras?
My suggestion is to use abrasive material like at Paul Riccard on and beyond the white line. Slows down the driver and wears down the tires. Doing it once or twice to avoid lap 1 carnage won't hurt you that much. Doing it repeatedly will mean your tires give in earlier in the stint. The bonus you can use bright pigments to colour the surface and make small chunks of it come off and attach to the hot rubber - weakening the grip a little more until it wears down a lap or two later but also giving a visual aid to the driver, spectators and FIA that a driver went off track.
I'm sure there are places this won't work, but it is an immediate and clear punishment. The FIA could work with Perrelli and track surface manufacturers to get just the right balance of how punishing on the tires this abrasive material will be to different tire compounds. Tweak it from season to season until the loss of grip and time is just right.
Great idea. Maube something like coloured tennis court chalk that kicks up a little cloud and marks the tyre and slows drivers down while wearing the tyre. If it's no longer a benefit they'll soon stop taking liberties. So in essence track limits will be 2 wheels on the kerb and no further. Shouldn't be too dangerous to bikes either. That'd be something to look at. And enforce it everywhere not selectively
Chain Bear suggested putting a type of coloured dust to identify when a driver exceed track limits, since the tyres will get dirty. This is pretty smart, I think
Here is how you solve the problem of track limits: Make every circuit Monaco or just enforce the limits at every turn
The problem with gravel traps as limits is that cars running on the edge will throw gravel onto the track, which becomes a hazard for the following cars (and isn't very good for the tires and cooling ducts).
8:55 The FIA actually does post the race notes for the weekend on their website in PDF form which is pretty helpful
And they change them for every session - which isn't very helpful.
They actually have applied the "on or off" to MotoGP this season where they've placed pressure sensors at track limit locations. They actually had record setting quali times scratched from the session because a rear tire went a few millimeters into track limits 2 weeks ago or so.
Not the guy with the Senna livery and helmet going for a divebomb that was never going to work.
Was the second time he’d tried that as well.
Obviously has the same attitude to holes and goals as senna too lol
While gravel and grass are generally bad as a runoff, they have one advantage over gravel - a driver gets penalised immediately. We can give those drivers penalties, but let's be honest - noone likes penalties. We all want the result to be clear once the race ends. In that regard gravel and grass (whether natural or artificial, doesn't matter) has an advantage - if a driver extends, he gets penalised immediately, on site, and we don't have to think about it again. There's also a clear limit of where you can and can't go. Of course there are places where putting gravel is just a bad idea, especially if cars go really quick there - but there are also places when that doesn't apply. See Monza T2 outside - cars go really slow there and that grass/gravel combo makes sure noone extends.
I think Silverstone has the best approach to runoff out of all F1 tracks - you have artificial/natural grass just outside of the track which prevents drivers going wide, then you have safe tarmac (plus we could add those high grip stripes from Paul Ricard), and then gravel just by the barriers, which slows car down, when they're already going slower.
At places where that isn't possible - wide kerbs, or for example T4 Bahrain, where the runoff is also a tarmac for alternative layouts - it's pretty simple. Tell everyone "see those white lines? yeah, don't cross them or you get your time cancelled, and in the race you get 3 warnings and then a penalty". Like cmon, I don't even get why FIA does that "you can go wide there, but not there" thing. Tell drivers to go between white lines - they're there for a reason - and that's it. Drivers will complain - but who cares? Their job is to follow the rules. So set those rules in a way that makes sense. Half of this drama could've been prevented by simply saying "track limit - those white lines".
You can follow the FIA logic but it's actually funny that they had normal high curbs behind the line painted white and red, then flattened them for safety, and then added some green painted cement behind the curb, then added a normal high curb 2m away... but this time painted yellow? The new curb is just as unsafe as the old white and red curb and now the drivers put 2 wheels on the new yellow curb. Time for a reset.
in my opinion there's already a great system in place to sort this out. it's the two continuous white lines on eighter side of the afphalt that define the edge of the track. if the FIA would just say: just act as if everything outside these lines is gravel. stay on the track everywhere. the runoffs would still be there if need be, but the rules would apply everywhere and it would be much easier to police. that's just my lemen opinion. great video, keep up the good work, cheers!
Really easily, install sensors at the edge of the track, when a car triggers the sensor, a 5 second penalty is applied.
Agreed, they can keep the same system where it goes warning, black and white flag and after that a time penalty. Just automate the system. It's formula 1 there's no reason this should be a issue with all the technology available to them.
Solution 1: Roofing nails.
Solution 2: Brakes get applied automagically when crossing the line.
Solution 3: DRS disabled for 2 laps, because you are a naughty boy.
Solution 4: Forced to wear lederhosen for the season & yodel for 1 minute during every interview. Added bonus: unwanted attention from Toto & Horner. I'm fully aware this may scare some drivers into hiding under the table in their motor-homes....but this in turn will reward us with guest appearances from Hulk Hulkenburglar & Championship Points Thievery. Excitement all around.
It's adorable that you think reminding people during the race would stop social media meltdowns.
My sweet summer child.
As a PCA instructor told me a long time ago, "if they put race track out there, you might as well use it."
By defining limits, and adhering to them. For me “all of any tyre over all of the white line is considered exceeding track limits” today we have the technology to enforce that I believe. Obviously avoiding a collision should be considered acceptable infringement
Take the grid autosport approach:
Any time all 4 wheels go off track and you didn’t obviously loose time is an instant slowdown.
Now obviously you can’t do instant slowdowns irl but you could easily do instant penalties at the stewards discretion in terms of size and way it is applied.
Love your content. But the particular bgm of this video reminds of that Family cutaway clip “distracting trumpet”. Thus creating some unintended comedy Lol
They need to make minor track adjustments that make cutting or extending runoff not an advantage. They have used sausage curbs for this in the past but I think there are safer options.
To address extending corners, I think they could come up with a kind of astro turf type piece that goes beyond the exit curb that provides nearly 0 grip. They would place them strategically, so that in an accident a driver would only pass over them for a very short period of time and shouldn't inhibit slowing down much. Make it wide enough so that if someone touches it they lose grip and very clearly go beyond track limits. As long as the driver can keep from going beyond the low grip piece they are ok. This should both make the difference between valid laps and invalid laps very obvious as well as make the fastest way through the turn a valid lap.
For inside curbs, I think they need to be raised. The outside tires are providing the majority of the grip, so having a low grip surface on the inside won't do anything. In order to reduce grip you have to raid the curb so that the outside tires are no longer at an optimal camber. You can make the curb fairly wide with a progressive ramp, but it has to reach a significant height above the track. Having the significant height would also discourage incredibly aggressive cuts as it would be like driving over a small jump where rejoining the track probably would not be good for your car.
Definitely needs to be something done about it. IMO, it needs to be an automatic "cut" of all drive power for the same duration that a driver was outside the track limits, and it needs to commence immediately upon reentering the track limit.
I don't know how this could be achieved - GPS can be down to the centimeter if walking in the bush or four wheel driving. Whether it can accurately keep up with 20 cars driving at hundreds of kilometers per hour for one and a half hours though, we might have to wait and see.
Maybe (as a more expensive solution), rather than the detection pads simply being place conveniently, they should be placed on the inside and outside of every corner on tarmac runoff, such that if they measure a car touching them (or crossing them), they record the total duration where the breach took place, and the power cut is applied from there.
In the past with big gravel run offs, drivers would see a driver rejoining the circuit and move over to avoid the vehicle, to pass it. Drivers would see cars they are following run wide, and they could move over in anticipation for the pass. In the pass this would have been visually confirmed by a puff of dirt (or otherwise), giving the following driver the inclination that the car they are following will not have gotten an optimal exit by dipping a wheel off, so move out for the potential overtake. Such a power-cut penalty would require drivers to be aware if the car they are following touches the "outside track limits" perimeter, and move over to pass and avoid hitting an instantly slowing car.
Just a thought...
I am occasionally a track limits judge of fact, this isn't a difficult problem, the white lines define the track, 4 or 2 wheels over is a track limits offence, depending upon who's rules you are playing under.
Decisions can be made in the case of drivers being forced off/lost control by either a video reviewer, or better, the observer/post chief on the ground.
The only remaining thing to sort is what level of punishment is applied, this is frustratingly varied from formulae to formulae. A lot of club racing is extremely strict, whilst supposed more senior series let people get away with all sorts. Altho, the BTCC is a lot better than it used to be.
IRacing has strict corner cutting rules
*laughs in Project Cars ridiculously strict rules*
At tracks like Bahrain have the best of both worlds. Put a 2 meter gravel trap at the track limits of corners where cars will take the piss, that way when they go wide they are punished, then past that gravel trap there is still tarmac for drivers to have the ability to slow down to prevent that driver from being hurt in a big accident.
About the track limits being sent to broadcasters:
I remember at the start of last season before the race in Austria that Mylander did a demonstration of the track limits that would be observed on the exit of Turn 9. Two wheels off was fine (though very bumpy because of the giant sausage strips on the exit), 4 wheels off was illegal. That was on ESPN (well, technically Sky Sports because here in the States we get it through ESPN via Sky).
In regards to Bahrain, I get why Lewis did what he did. FIA said they weren't going to watch the Turn 4 exit all weekend and he would extend. Far too much of a gray area. FIA should just say: we're watching every corner, keep 2 wheels on track. Speaking of Portimao, I wonder if they're going to do the same thing they did last year for turn 1 (keep 2 on and if not you're breaking track limits)
Here's an idea. Enforce the track limits on the whole track. This pick-and-choose which corners are policed on a given session is stupid. I can't believe that F1 cannot automate the whole thing with a few cameras. Maybe put a drone up over every corner with a direct feed back to race control.
Sensors in the wheels and on the (critical) edges of the track? Crossing = punishment
Most tracks handle track limits fairly well regarding corner entry and apex, but a lot of the discussion comes from extensions on exits of fast corners. You can’t add speed bump-type kerbs otherwise cars can get too out of control, and gravel traps don’t suit all racing series well enough. I think what should be investigated into is a temporary and artificial substitute to gravel; something which deforms and drags along with cars without spinning them, and being able to be replaced / removed once a different racing series comes along. Something like a bubblewrap design where cars depress plastic or other deformable balls and the added friction slows the car enough without sending it into a spin. Could be inexpensive as well if the system is reusable, but who knows maybe there’s a better solution
Imagine if the metropolitan police announced that "This weekend we'll be policing muggings but not auto theft, and only in counties ending in the letter g. Unless the criminals don't like the idea in which case we'll change it."
Rules are rules, obey them or be penalised. End of.
100% agree.
It's like the double yellow rule at dega or Daytona, some drivers get blacked flag some don't. Its so hard to figure it out apparently on what to do.
Great solution Aidan. Making them publicly accountable is the best way to ensure fairness
I believe that everything up to and including the white lines on the edge of the track is fair game, so long as there is at least two wheels on the track
It is easy to say just put gravel and grass back, but I'm not the only one that thinks this way, Spa is bringing back gravel traps for their track limits. I think we have to accept that there isn't a one size fits all solution, its just as controversial as VAR. Its had a negative impact on football and I believe digital track limits is bad for f1 aswell; it's easier for the viewer to understand a car going wide and chucking up dirt and getting unsettled rather than a notice 3 minutes after the lap has been completed it gets deleted. I don't think they have to commit to one type of track limit, but I would like to see commitment to a better process of explaining them to the viewer... And tbh is it actually cheaper to set up light beams and running computers to detect the limits than it is to fill in some grass again? I don't know
I suspect that the new 18 ins wheel rims will be a simple way of enforcing track limits by being more easily damaged because of the thinner sidewalls.
nice video, i agree that the FIA should make the rules publcly available and stop changing their mids about which corner drivers can do what on in terms of track limits
They should install automatic systems that police the limits exactly like Iracing. Obviously they should manually override the penalties if a driver is forced off, something that can't be done in Iracing. Lots of people blame runoff, but runoff inspires driver confidence which leads to more risk taking and better racing. The problem is the enforcement, not the runoff.
Watching endurance racing (IMSA in particular) most of the tracks that they race at, the wedge shaped rumble curbs (don't know their official name) are not back filled on the back side, leaving a 1-2 inch vertical face. It is easy to see when a car gets its wheel fully on the other side of the curb as the car drops onto the outer asphalt strip. This provides a visual and audible que that the car has breached track limits. For the corners that don't have curbs, the drivers usually stay within the same footprint. Its usually only once a year that you'll hear about the stewards warning a driver about track limits.
Just put grass back at the absolute edge like brands hatch
Facts. Correct answer
@@akaDOOD Functional and its not an eyesore
Or gravel to help prevent incidents like Russell and Bottas at the weekend.
@@Nicksanders99 gravel increases the chance of the cars flipping
@@mattpinky7125 as a fan and spectator, I would rather watch a car flip then read twitter arguments about track limits. Just my personal preference maybe
Landmines just over the kerbs would sort it out, one way or another...
I remember Mika Hakinen running wide at I think is turn 4or 5 at one of the early Melbourne GP's a number of times during qualifying, he would go into the left hand corner with more speed, run wide off the track ( a couple of car widths wide mind you) then go back across the track to go into the next right hand corner. at the time there was no rule against doing it so nothing was done about it and his times stood.
As for F1, I feel sorry for the poor bugger that has spent a lot of time painting those white lines and is the most disrespected person in all of F1. I hope they give him access to a shrink, he must be one shattered individual.
Need to start dishing out time penalty's, have at least part of one wheel in contact with the line ( like in tennis ) and have a half second penalty applied to the first 3 infringements then any more after that it goes up to 1 second penalty for each there after. So for example at Bahrain Hamilton would have had about a 20 second time penalty applied at the end of the race.
And someone really should start a GO FUND ME page for the line painter.
The white lines define the limits of the track. Police every section of the track exactly the same, if all four wheels leave the track, lap deleted or if it is during the race = time penalty, even if it is just 1s per infringement, the drivers will soon stop doing it.
I get accused of cutting the track. Even though two wheels are on still. First Monza chicane mostly.
I've long thought that there is a technological solution that removes the human element altogether: synthetic ice. It's used for ice skating where the cost of cooling real ice would be prohibitive. Simply bolt plates of that stuff onto the ground at strategic locations during car races (remove it for bikes) and tell the drivers to go wherever the hell they want, NASCAR style.
So Scott Mansell of the Driver 61 RUclips channel says that the British Club Championship puts pressure plates out at any place they think people will run wide, they apparently always do so at the apex of turns, and anyone who triggers a plate gets a warning the first time and then a time penalty every time after. Makes me wonder why isn't the FIA of all organizations applying such a solution? You would think they would have the money to place them.
With all the track monitoring and telemetry technology on vehicles, I wonder if they can program the vehicles with a sort of red flag when a vehicle goes off track. It would remove any bias.
As a motorcycle track monkey, I am against the sand traps and high curbs from the 90's, my body's still paying the price for those mistakes.
The white lines mark the track edge, must keep 2 wheels on the track at all times. Its such a simple thing and yet its treated like its super complicated. The track is there to be raced on not just a rough guide :)
Edit: I don't watch f1 all that much I'm much more into sro and wec, its like sausage curbs don't exist on alot of corners for those guys its also a joke and track limits is abused just as much
The FIA should consider the use of available tech. to police 100% for them, in my view.
Mandate that the GPS should be located in a certain location in EVERY car, along its centre line.
Use that as the measure to track limits with available map data. If the centre-line of the car breeches the defined track limits (ie; the white line) then fire out warnings via media and pit lane/teams comms.
The mode of recompense could be either; yield 0.xxx seconds within xx laps for each individual transgression, or gain more than x seconds and you will accrue warnings up to a defined time penalty of 5 seconds - at least something that will be harsher than sticking to track limits.
The money this sport has, I think it's a given that it has to explore and invest in the technological solutions to these issues of controversy which exposes the biases and incompetences that are naturally present, wherever people are involved.
If the FIA cannot influence the objective application of its rules, then it has a duty to step aside and let innovation do its thing.
Have like 10 feet of grass outside the track, then gravel, then spaced walls if its treally needed
This controversy is good for F1. It's keeping people talking. It's making qualifying more tense and creating drama.
...and making the stewards look like a bunch of clowns.
No good for drivers though. I can imagine if someone broke my RBR World Record by taking some track limit that they just suddenly allowed because "it's difficult to police". You must be fair, since this is a sport, not a TV soap or something idk. It's less of a sport and more of a comedy nowadays, with Maspin
@@gigadonis8684 It's a business first and a sport second. All this talk is good for business.
All professional sports are like that.
Two tyres on track at all times (excluding spin-offs and collisions, of course). During quali, if you don't abide that lap time is deleted. During the race you get two warnings - third occasion = a drive-through penalty, and a further drive-through for each subsequent violation. Simple.
I did watch the whole video but my answer is still grass and gravel and no track extensions. That is the best way to keep the cars within the limits of the track
Yes Fernando Alonso did have a barrel roll at Australia in 2016, but this is why we have crash tests to ensure the cars are safe to drive. An even better question is why that crash deserved a red flag
Just have a simple: over the white line? Time deleted
Elevate all the tracks 2ft off the ground, so if you go beyond, you’re out, like that one in Mario Kart.
They don’t go off the track at Pikes Peake 🤷🏽♂️
If different vehicles have different track limits, why not maybe 1 to 3 colored strips which as has been suggested can be set up to electronically monitor track limits. Each strip is a different color and each series can make their own call as to which strip will be used. I also think it's the inside tire that should be monitored, as it's the most natural as a driver to focus on and doesn't give cars of varying widths any disadvantages. Too many violations automatically trigger a penalty without official intervention.
MotoGP has added pressure sensors to exit kerbs (green paint past the red and white kerb) to prevent riders extending.
And the rules are simple: extend in qualifying and your lap time is deleted
extend in the race 5 times and you get a long lap penalty
The rules are clear and apply to everyone in all classes
I would make it an incremental penalty, first offense is one second, second it two and so forth, there will be some very careful drivers after a few GPs.
The simplest method would be a detection system built into the track itself..
e.g. a light beam detection system installed in the runoff areas, the cars dimensions are known and set by the organizing body, if a car goes beyond the width of say the the outside edge of the outer wheel to inside edge of the inner wheel time is deleted, basically the 2 inner tyres MUST be within the white lines or the time is automatically and INSTANTLY deleted.
If infractions happen in the race it immediately gets flagged to the stewards for review.
If it happens multiple times then a corresponding penalty is applied.
Point is this would be automatically reported to the stewards and also applied for ALL drivers INSTANTLY, removing the need for investigations and appeals after the fact.
I wish F1 would take a firm stance on this, like the TCUK rules. As long as the rules change race by race, the controversy will continue.
The way I'd do it, is that cars must remain on track at all times, but the painted kerbs also count as part of the track. This is basically what drivers do anyway (just look at the lines drivers take through Raidillion and Malmdey at Spa), but it leaves without any doubt that you're not allowed to take the piss, like Hamilton did for the first part of Bahrain.
Also I think the idea that the FIA should tell teams what corners they're policing is a terrible idea. When the FIA tell the teams this, all they hear is "Feel free to track extend here, here and here."
A great example of this would be the pole lap (ruclips.net/video/PKKqWvEP_RY/видео.html) from last years Spa 24 hour. The lines they were taking through the whole lap was a complete joke. The organisers originally said that they wouldn't police track limits as they didn't have enough staff to do so. After Quali and Superpole, they changed their tune rather quickly, as they realised how far the drivers were willing to take things and managed to police track limits for the whole of the race afterwards.
Track limits violations are a sign of lazy track design: let the drivers find the quickest way around the track and if they don’t want them to use the run off they should make it slower to do so
There must be a way to stop track extending being an advantage while minimising damage-eg a lil strip of grass or something slippery at least just outside track limits so that you lose time but keep the runoff outside it so that it isn’t dangerous
I'm just thinking of Indy at COTA where they gave up on track limits and the run off became the racing line
Track limits? Simple. You put spike strips that will puncture the tyres at the line of the limit. Keep it on the track or visit the pits for new tyres. The most legit time penalty you can get and no grey areas.
the btcc a knockhill on one corner stops track limits but putting a huge bale in the way too force drivers too do it properly
Don't see a whole lot of track limit debates at Monaco do we? Maybe there's the answer
a concrete wall directly outside of the white lines?
Collapsible bollards that damage the car.
Personally I would say, the whole track is policed and the moment all 4 wheels are outside the white line they are cautioned, 5~10 cautions in a race... drive through, its tough, but just imagine how quickly the drivers would adjust to doing it properly.
Rainbow road on super mario kart never had these issues 😂
For me, I think make it only penalized if all fours are off the astroturf.
Also agreed that EVERYONE, be it the drivers, marshals or us watching, know where are the limits.
All wheels are outside of the white lines. Simpel and clear.
Yes
Enforce every corner and I say touching the white line is a violation. Add two seconds to race time. Two violations at the same corner and it is a stop and go.
Have tarmac on every run off, but a strip of incredibly slippy plastic immediately after the kerb. Breach track limits and you're off for a spin, but you're then on tarmac so you have a chance to regain control before going in to a barrier, or reduce speed and rollover risk before hitting gravel. No cameras or stewards needed. Instant karma.
That's exactly how I would do it. All corners monitored, the white line is the track edge. One wheel on the black stuff at all times, two seconds added to your race time for every infringement, no exceptions (or time deleted in Quali). Put a tangible cost on it and they will soon start honouring track limits.
grass or sand for about a meter before the massive tarmac runoff, thus no running wide but a car that goes off can then scrub speed
should do what they do in motogp three warning and then a penalty lap around the longer part of the lap
Let the drivers decide for themselves!
One thing that gets my goat: going off track on the same corner 29 times in a row is deliberately, intentionally breaking the rules. It's not reasonable to call that a mistake or a safety issue, it's clearly a matter of the driver not respecting track limits. Children on go-kart tracks are expected to do a better job of adhering to the rules than that, and if they fail to do so, they get black flagged. Entirely aside from the debate of where precisely the line should be drawn on when someone is off the track, it is absurd that F1 drivers are held to a laxer standard than children having a go at amateur motorsport.
Consistency in the application and public acknowledgment of the rules would go a long way. The FIA creates these disputes because they are never consistent and the drivers know this. Hamilton played them like a fiddle in Bahrain. The fact the other teams didn't pick up on the changes for the race tells me they don't look for the gray area as well as the Mercedes boys.
The FIA has to do your touring car group did Aidan. One rule, that is it for the weekend. Period. Done .
It isn't hard ..they just make it hard because it gives us all something to talk about . Publicity and attention bad or good works for the FIA and F1 apparently
...You police it properly, the way V8 Supercars do it. X number of breaches, you get a warning, one more and it’s a five second penalty.
Whilst I am a huge fan of Tsunoda, I was somewhat glad he was penalised during the Imola race. Not because I wanted it to happen, but because it meant the stewards were actually doing their job.
IED's on the outside of the track
Easy solution, make the white lines 4 times thicker and keep spraying them with water throughout the race. The only time drivers avoid exceeding track limits is when it's wet because when wet those lines are evil.
Why not have a strict "every off track excursion is monitored" BUT have a three strike system for each one? So e.g. you let them go wide 3 times and then penalise them 5s for doing it a 4th. Then the drivers will stop intentionally going wide there anyway because the risk outweighs any potential reward and you get back the safety buffer the astroturf area behind curbs was originally created for.
Brutal consistency would help
I don't understand why they don't just say that the white line defines the edge of the track, and that drivers must have at least one wheel inside or in contact with said white line at all times.
At all parts of the track.
Another problem ive noticed is at places similar to the outside of the long left hander at russia… Why is the wall so far away? The farther away the wall is the more head-on the car hits the wall… hitting a wall at 100mph but running alongside means youre actualy only coming at the wall at about 20mph. Hitting a wall at 40mph but almost head on means you go at the wall at about 30 mph
It is a problem that potentially will solve its self with next years cars. Any damage to the underside of the cars ground effect and the driver will feel a huge reduction in down force. Drivers who keep all four wheels on the track and therefor keeping the chassis flat are going to go faster than those who run wide and break the air flow under the car.