F1’s MAJOR track limits problem explained
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- The 2023 F1 Austrian Grand Prix was more about track limits than the actual racing it seemed, with an extreme number of laps deleted due to drivers going outside of the track's white lines. Do you think F1 needs a better solution to track limit offenses?
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#f1 #formula1 #austriangp #austriaf1 #formulaone #fia #tracklimits
They don't need barb wire around football or tennis fields, they just need to be consistent in applying the rules.
To add to that, they clearly need to make the punishment stiffer. That's the easiest, cheapest, and quickest way to mirror the effect of a gravel trap without having one. Let them have their 3 strikes, then make the penalty 30 seconds for turn 9/10. It's comically severe, but no more so than how comical the infractions were this year.
Ocon have so much time penalty that it sends him in 2021
😭😭
Go back 25 years and nearly every corner had grass and/or gravel on the outside; running off the track came with real consequences so the drivers had to maintain at least a tiny bit of caution, unlike today where most of the corners have tarmac run-off areas.
What I would propose is having grass or astroturf just past the edge of the track (at least one car width), followed by tarmac run-off. Makes it so that drivers have to stay on the track to achieve the best times, while not compromising safety too much.
I think Tsunoda has got it spot on. Put more curbs on the outside of the track so it punishes drivers from going too wide.
But what especially was frustrating was that the fia was not talking to some driver and teams (ocon) about track limts so they thought i was fine and first after the race they told them
True, but tbf there were only more penaltys cause Aston complained
One solution would be to add rumble strips outside track limits. That’ll give the driver some feedback that the car indeed is/was outside limits without the car being damaged.
That's what Yuki said lol
why not just widen the track in the crucial corners so everyone can gain lap time therefore no one will be gaining anything form going illegally wide, as they will all be allowed to go wider.
some might say "they will still go over track limits", however going to much over the current "limit" will hinder lap time not aid it.
Then I thinking for eSports T3/T4 at Silverstone shouldn't exist...
But I do get your point, although it's quite differnent.
Why not just demand the highest paid and supposed to ve best drivers in the world just learn to driven within the tracks limits. Why have to change a track to accommodate a driver that paid 6++ million dollars a year. ( thats the average F1 driver Earnings )
At this point someone should've already come up with some sort of lasers, pressure pads or some shit on the track that detects how much they go off-track.
The GPS should be precise enough.
@@stefanmisch5272 It can be but it can also not be. I think the real solution is local gps, so to speak, where the stations are based around the track instead of in space.
@@LeCharles07 So basically "Assisted GPS", where there's an additional GPS signal with a reference point of a known location so that you can measure the current inaccuracies and calculate a much more precise (in the 1cm range) location. I'd be surprised if they don't use that already. Your regular smart phone GPS is already very precise but I don't think they're using such a generic system in this hightech sport.
32 seconds in and already a glaring error. Zhou Guanyu did not go the whole weekend without a lap time deletion (Sprint shootout, he was the first driver to have a time deleted at 12:02:51).
Also, clever wording ("Weekend" rather than "Race weekend") so that you can ignore Friday's qualifying where both Russell and Zhou had lap times deleted, seems a bit disingenuous.
It’s like what lando said last year. It should be evaluated on each corner and some should be more lenient then others. Or they should just add a wall so the drivers stay on the track
Two simple solutions
1ribbed lines around the track. This is already done on roads
2 sensors in the tyres or on the cars and around the track.
Honestly, they don't need to do much about it. Just keep the 3 strikes thing they're doing. Relay any possible infraction to the team and now it's their responsibility to tell the driver. The drivers should be able to manage or deal with the consequences. The FIA doesn't seem to understand that the rules aren't really the ones that are failing, but their communication and application of them.
Personally the solution is drivers could just keep the car on track😅. On the other hand, FIA need sensors so they can quickly see who has gone off track to gain an advantage
This is lazy thinking. No driver would ever overtake mid-corner if leaving the track meant losing the whole lap. Gravel or grass allow drivers to really play with the limits in competition without gaining advantages for stepping over. If your solution was actually plausible, then no driver would ever hit a wall in qualifying. But they do, and we all love it, and you freaking know it too!
I honestly do not get the problem /misunderstanding with the drivers? The rules of "no 4 wheels can be outside the whitelines of the circuit" for touring cars, GT and prototypes for years. Why does F1 at redbull ring find this so hard? I understand pushing to the max and extracting everything on corner exit but it Russel and Zhou can do surely so can the others!
I am glad F1 has track limit rules. I would live to see other forms of motorsports do the same (NASCAR I am looking at you). What I see as the issue is the lack of policing track limits for so long. It became a "we cares" attitude. Between all of the major technology in F1 racing now you should be able to keep the car in the lines.
As for the penalty give F1 the ability to flash a notice on the drives dash about violations. Once you go over the grace period number it becomes a 5 second time penalty. The next penalty gets you a drive thru then its a stop and go.
NASCAR very much has track limit rules. On the superspeedways (Daytona and Talladega), you cannot cross the yellow line to the apron. At the Rovals, if you miss one of the chicanes, you are obligated to stop in a predetermined area.
The problem this weekend was that the system was overloaded, so those warnings on the dash would not have happened.
My solution is, for "high risk" corners (9 & 10 at Austria, Parabolica at Monza, etc.), have a run-off zone that is unlikely to be in the firing line somewhere on the circuit. If you have a track limits violation at those corners, for whatever reason, you are obligated to, at some point during the next 3 laps, go to that safe zone and come to a complete stop before returning to the race. The penalty for failing to do this would be a black flag, DQing you from the race.
Nascar does have linits on some of the big tracks you cant drop below the line and pass another car. If you do its a drive thru penalty
Here in American racing, we do have track limits, they're called walls.
Have deep kerbs running parallel to the circuit with very narrow raised parts to significantly reduce the contact patch of the tyre reducing the grip and discouraging drivers going out there. Adjust/ remove/ fill in for the bikes. Or just have grass, reduced grip and the bikes will slide straight over
Make the corners wider and let them race
The drivers would just drive faster and go wider. Having a gravel pit or grass at the edge of the track would give them enough reason to stay inside the track limits since time penalties aren't reason enough.
@@bigsmooshflopdong33 and at a certain width it would be disadvantageous to go wide.
Not gravel ... LAVA!!! ;-)
Oh hell yeah, the ACTUAL solution.
Here's what I don't get. You get 2 warnings before a penalty so clearly the teams weren't communicating that to the drivers or the drivers weren't listening. I get that the cars are heavier so they tend to understeer more but isn't that part of, you know, driving? Norris was talking about how it's really easy to be under pressure and drift out; isn't that called, you know, "racing"? If your opponent can pressure you into a penalty then they don't need to pass you on track, well played opponent. /shrug
Or the warnings were coming a bit too late. Which is was pretty much the case since now we know the absurd amount of off track records (over 1200) that race had.
That's almost humanly impossible for the stewards to keep track (no pun intended). Even they said "Please, do something about it, because we can't have another race like that" 😅
Best drivers in the world lol
So just sticking to driving within the white lines isn't an option then? No? Kay.
nascar and indy: ''what tracklimits?''
I'd say pave the runoffs with a smooth concrete finish. In other words, make it really slippery.
I think Tsunoda has the right idea with a small curb to give feedback.
Put a sensor in the car and if they go over track limits, it puts the call in anti-stall for 5 seconds.
What the hell needs to be explained . If you drive with all four wheels over the painted lines on either the inside ir outside if the track without being forced by another car to have left the racing surface. And a penilty is given. Want to stop this first time a penalty the next time they park your car for the rest of the race . If these really are the best drivers in the world they' ll stop. Back when leaving the racing line could result in death or injury due to the objects surrounding the track they didnt exceed the limits just to gain time .
I would clamp down on the track limits issue more. Two warnings, then the black and white flag, then a DT penalty on the 4th offense. Black and white flag on the 5th offense and 10s Stop&Go on the 6th.
Black and white flag on the 7th (warning for nearing disqualification) and DSQ on the 8th.
That would definitely stop track limit abuse from happening and would encourage drivers to slow down for turns 9 and 10 to ensure they don't go over the white lines.
We are missing a decent camera angle on turn 10.
If they consistently enforce the rules, the drivers will change their driving to avoid track limits violations.
The issue is that enforcement has been lackadaisical for years. The policy of non-enforcement essentially trained drivers to push the limits to gain an advantage.
Now they want to start cracking down, so drivers will need to unlearn those lessons from the past several years. As some of the best drivers in motorsport, adapting should be something they are all capable of.
(EDIT: apologies for the essay, but I have stronger feelings about this than I thought I did on starting to reply...)
To be honest, I am far more concerned about the pit entry position in Austria. It's a blind turn; if teams don't tell the relevant drivers that someone is coming up fast behind a pitting car, and vice versa, (looking at you Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull. Ferrari out of habit - especially that close call in the tunnel in Monaco, the others because of the near miss last weekend), one day there's going to be an almighty accident.
For those of you who watch the highlights on Channel 4, you'll know what happened to Billy Monger. Going fast over a blind crest, he didn't know there was a stationary, broken down car on the other side (I don't think his class had "ship-to-shore" radio). Losing the bottom of both his legs at 18 wasn't exactly on his "to do" list of things during his career.
(He still managed to win the Pau GP from the back, in the rain, in an adapted car. Just goes to show that even the most talented drivers can have things go horribly wrong. Not that he complains, bless him.)
I am _genuinely_ afraid of something similar happening at the pit lane entry, particularly if someone is going extremely slow due to a mechanical issue or accident damage.
Having said that, move the track out a few yards at the worst offending corner, and then stamp down hard on anyone who takes the p**s. Avoiding an accident, being pushed onto it, having one's own "moment" - they're among the genuine reasons for going over any track edge. But even I, who would undoubtedly be the world's worst F1 driver, can see why they're going over the last corner so much. A) they have next to no "ground vision" because they sit so low in the car, and B) the track itself pushes them out that way if they go 1kmh over whatever is the ideal maximum speed (which might change from lap to lap.)
The DRS monitoring point being where it is, and having the first (last? Depends on exactly where it starts on the main straight) DRS area just after the last corner is not so much _inviting_ them to go too fast to stay on the track, they _have_ to do it to make use of the reduction in drag, or get mugged constantly, then have to fight back at the beginning of the next lap at turns 1, 3 & 4 in particular, and risk being driven into "accidentally", or going off the track trying to avoid a crash. If the grass is wet, there's a good chance ("good" being the worst description) that the car will speed up , smash into the barrier and rebound onto the track. That horrendous and tragic accident in Spa on the weekend that also reminded us of Antoine Hubert... I think we want to avoid such rebounds.
There are two safe options that I can see. Neither include significantly raised kerbing. Yuki clearly isn't a bike fan. I've seen some horrendous, including fatal, accidents due to a rider crashing and ending up on them (or crashing because they touched them), oftentimes at the "behest" of the rider on the inside... Remove the DRS from that whole area, or as I said above, give the racers room to drift out with the G force that pushes them in that direction (but again, clamp down _hard_ on those who are being too greedy). Make it part of the track, but in a position where they'll absolutely _need_ to get back onto the current track layout asap, or end up heading for the grandstand. Not recommended!
When it comes to putting things like gravel down, sure bike races go places where there are gravel traps, but they can absolutely wreck a bike. I've even seen them speed up as they cartwheel over the gravel. Last weekend at Donington, one of the WSB bikes ended up standing upside down in the gravel because it had dug in too much! Even with their safety equipment, riders can, for example, lose their visors and end up with a bleeding face and a helmet full of sharp stones - and their eyes are exceedingly vulnerable in such a situation. And despite the weekend's tragedy, bikers are far more vulnerable than F1 drivers. As mentioned, F1 takes up one weekend a year of any track. That's how they make the money to pay the ridiculous sums for the "honour" of holding a GP. The rest of the year is worth far more than F1 to the majority of tracks. It's going to get to the point where there'll be no tracks left willing to play F1's games.
just add walls and spikes in them
The perfect solution is to have gravel immediately after the red and white curbs. But moto GP will always be here to stop that from happening.
I think all four tires should stay inside the track
George : i can stay on track but no promises to stay on my track
More harsh penalties for exceeding track limits would be the easiest answer. Make it harsh enough that the risk of penalty is too great to possibility overcome. Rather than 5 seconds, make it 10 or even 30. The harsher, the more the drivers will slow down to avoid it.
They could also set a cap to the number of track limit violations before disqualification. They could arbitrarily set it to any number but for now lets say 5 violation will be tolerated before DQ. This rule is specifically designed for tracks like Austria, Monza, and Austin(tracks with large runoffs) as well as Belgium, Japan, and Abu Dhabi(tracks that have had cutting in order to continue fighting for position).
Tsunodas Idea is god deamn right
Do we really need this rules based nonsense? Racing off the track should be it's own penalty-the driver goes slower. But why the 'nanny' based rules?
Honestly I don’t see an issue with the track limits for the Austrian Grand Prix. Yes it’s difficult to keep it all inside the limits when you are trying to push the limit but. That’s the name of the game. It is difficult for a reason and this gives other drivers with different driving styles a chance as well so I don’t see an issue with the penalty
Or ya do what nascar does and only apply track limits on legitimate shortcuts
Ocon the time traveler
What if its just so much more slippery and bumby outside of the line that you want to avoid it in any cost... it just would be slower.
Two drivers proved it can be done. It's discipline and skill.
You can't do it. Unless you are red bull
LoL NASCAR was much better during the weekend🎉🎉
I propose we, as a community, begin to refer to Michael Massi circa 2021 as "he who shall not be named".
Origionaly finished !
Max: "it's not that easy."
.... didn't know F1 was supposed to be easy.... 🤦♂️
The way biggest farce was how most drivers' approached the track limits. They should first set their own ways right, not point at control/stewards whining "we're racing drivers, that's what we do"...
Astroturf like 🇶🇦 and 🇯🇵
Yes it is VERY simple Max, to stay within track limits, in your car, or anyone else’s car.
It’s called slowing down. You know, lifting the throttle at the right time or god forbid, even using THE BREAKS 😂🤣
Yes Max Verstappen. It is really easy to keep the F1 car within the track limitis. The solution for that is.... SLOW DOWN!
No. F1 shouldn’t be about keeping the car within the track, it should be about pushing it to the limits. It’s obvious that, without hard stops such as gravel traps or high kerbs, drivers would keep extending the track.
@@simo_viewer_pr9030you achieve the LIMIT my little bro by being fast in the TRACK. The place the car was made to be driven at. If you can take any route as it suits you, why don't we simply start cutting chicanes instead of rounding them?
People against track limits are so unreal.
Do they have a working steering wheel and a brake and throttle ? Then the only problem is the driver. We don’t change where the end zone is every game in American Football.