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Compact Tractor Hydraulics Explained
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- Опубликовано: 14 авг 2024
- Compact tractor hydraulics explained by Ken from Bolt on Hooks and Tractor Time with Tim! Great information for new tractor owners and experienced owners.
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Came across this vid today. Great knowledgeable guest on fluid hydraulics. Thank you for your presentation.
Liked the explanation of the power beyound.
Tim and Ken, what an excellent explanation and illustration of a typical hydraulic system. This is a great “go-to” video that answers a lot of basic questions about tractor hydraulics. Blessings to all!
This is how a gear pump works in a nutshell. As the gears are turning on the suction side a tooth is pulling out of a pocket between teeth and causes a small void and draws a small amount of vacuum. 14.7psi of atmospheric pressure pushes the fluid into that void via the breather on the reservoir. The fluid is carried around the gears and on the pressure side a tooth is going into a pocket between two teeth and this creates flow. Pressure is a product of resistance to flow.
Pp
Good video explaining the way hydraulics work! And nice to see a local guy (Ken) on your channel!
Ken lives close to me, stopped in and picked up some hooks and parts in person and have had shipped a couple times. Great products, works with local vendors and better pricing than box stores
Where does he live. I'm in western Maryland.
@@joshuaplacka8480 We are in Westminster MD
Thanks Joe!
Thanks for presenting this video. Great Information.
One thing I have heard from way to many people is statements that resemble ‘my hydraulics have no flow/pressure until I operate a valve’.
Ken and you addressed this on the flow side quite well. Less so with how pressure works in the system.
Now I realize that typical operation stays under that relief valve pressure, I also realize there are mays to increase the pressure in the system up to that relief valve setting. You addressed this as well in the deadhead examples and the overloaded examples. There are others as well.
Bottom line without pressure (however not necessarily max pressure) there is no flow. But as Ken and you discussed, there can be pressure without flow (deadhead) until the relief valve activates and flow (not full volume) is restored.
Yes, maybe we shoulda explicitly talked about normal 'pressure'. In this system, you will see maximum flow all of the time. The loop will always be flowing. When no work is being performed (no hydraulics actually used), there will be very little pressure. The only pressure will be what we call 'parasitic pressure' caused by restrictions in the loop. For example, 90 degree elbows, couplers, etc.
We have tested roughly 100 psi in this scenario. The pressure only increases when hydraulics are used, and then only sufficiently to perform the action. So, if the loader is empty, it might take only 500psi to lift it. If full, it might take 1900psi.
So, the phrase "my hydraulics has no pressure until I operate a valve" is essentially correct...and close enough to help understand the system. ...but it DOES have FLOW.
One other point. this is an 'Open Center System'. Closed center is used on larger tractors and is different.
This video got me over the hump of understanding how this works. Thank you!
Excellent discussion on the tractor hydraulics. A lesson for everyone.
Great Video Tim 👍 You may want to get Ken to talk about been Safe while working around these High Pressure Hoses. The High Pressure Hydraulic Hoses can hurt you bad if they get a hole in them while under pressure
Good job Kenny and Tim. 👍
Great video guys. Simply explained and to the point. Very informative.
This is great stuff, very informative and useful for a student like myself going through agricultural mechanic training. I'll be watching your content regularly, thanks for the uploads!
Tim Ken great stuff this what most of us need thank you
God Bless All
PaK
Good morning Tim !
I want to make sure I got the explanation correct. I have watched a few of your videos. With the summit valves I just need to hook up the valve to the output of the backhoe and then the other side of the valve to where the backhoe originally connected.
Yep! You got it!
Could not wait to watch this. Kenny is a great asset to GTT .
I always knew how hydraulics worked but I wasn't exactly sure where to put the pressure relief loop. Now that y'all talk about it it makes perfect sense. This will help me figure out how to put a small hydraulic system on a riding lawn mower. I want to build my own implements rototiller, log splitter, auger etc.
Although you talked about the loop always being on. I'm going to be able to disengage the pump to prevent bulging down my engine when I'm not using the hydraulics.
It won’t use much power as long as there is no pressure. The only time pressure is generated is when hydraulics are actually doing something. So no need to turn off pump.
Thx for posting Tractor Tim! Very helpful...
Good morning Tim and Ken. Very very helpful episode - thanks! And thanks for taking the time to edit in the pictures as you spoke to help me understand the information. Tim - Thanks - excellent content. Ken, let me know when you set up a distributor for Canada! Cheers - all the best guys!
As others have said the power beyond explanation was good. Simplified it in my mind. Thanks!
How fast and how much.
Good explanation.
Thanks for the straight forward explanation.
Thanks for explaining to me how this works. I was told to keep my mini excavator on high because of the pump now I understand why
Why don't they call it "fluid beyond" instead of "power beyond"? :-) Great video and explanation. Us newbies to subcompact tractors appreciate it.
Very informative!
Love it. Thanks for this, it’s important for all tractor owners to understand what these machines are doing “behind the scenes”
Thanks guys. Great instructional video
Super informative as always.
That was very interesting and informative. Thanks for Keeping It Simple for us folks. I look forward to seeing the flow testing & results too. Thanks again Tim, Ken & Christy.
Tim Really Really like this video!! Going to use it for my Ag class here at EC! If you ever are home I'd love to have you come talk to the class about your channel a little bit!
That would be loads of fun!
Contact me via email. Tim at tractor time with Tim dot com
…and check out last year’s Ohio state University video if you haven’t seen it.
Thank you for the lesson of the day Prof. Tim and Prof. Ken. Should make for a good educational and entertaining series.
Wow, I had no idea Ken was here in Maryland! Only about 45 min. from me. Looking forward to buying some stuff from him & using coupon code TTWT, lol.
Great explanation of the hydraulics.
Love the education. Thanks.
Interesting. Anxious to see the test results and learn more about how my tractor works. Great job!
Great explanation. Looking forward to the flow test episode
Curious where you are going to take the flow measurements from as there are a couple school of thoughts on that. Good explanation of an open center system.
Really really useful thank you!!
Great video Tim, Currently 6,333 views and 675 likes. I am not sure I have ever seen >10% "like" content!
Awesome video and thanks for providing great information. I’m looking forward to the video on the hydraulic flow tests.
Great info and more info to come, 👍🏻
And now I know. Thanks guys!!!
Very interesting. I would be interested on Ken's opinion on those bigger more flow pumps.
I'm curious how he feels about the PTO driven power packs. They look like a good investment if the need is right.
We showed a PTO power pack earlier this week.
@@TractorTimewithTim I was wanting to ask what Ken's thoughts are on Kevin's hydrosplus bigger hydraulic pumps on a 1025R for more hydraulic oil flow. To see if Ken thought it would be a good idea or not.
@@philsmock4943 As of now, I think think the Hydroplus solution is fantastic! Kevin put an insane amount of work into it and I have confidence it will hold up well.
Great video!
Looking forward to the rest of the series.
Great video. Thanks a lot. I learned a lot. I love your scripture quotes at the end your videos.
I learned something today
Good episode, that was informative. :)
I have a bit of a power beyond horror story for you. When I worked at the Mahindra dealer, we had a customer buy a Max26 with power beyond and backhoe. He apparently didn't realize the power beyond hoses had to be connected together when the backhoe wasn't attached. This tractor came back with 11 hours on it, with a hydraulic pump split in half. Mahindra would not cover it under warranty, since it was due to the owner not reading his manual. I should also add they have yellow tags on the ends of the hoses with instructions on what to do. We went round and round with him, and Mahindra, trying to come to an amicable solution. Long story short, the tractor never left our shop, and Mahindra repossessed it because he refused to pay the bill.
Seems like a poor design to not have the relief valve plumbed in before the power beyond. If Mahindra had done that, then it would’ve been fine.
all good stuff
Can you try lifting the rated load, and adjust the relief valve until it lifts as designed?
Great info, very helpful!
Hello Tim and community!! I'm adding a JD 260B backhoe to my JD4100 HST. The tractor already has a 200CX loader. Because Power Beyond kits are basically no longer available for the 4100 (the ones I did find are over $500, I need some guidance on assembling my own kit from off the shelf parts. I have read that the 90 degree fittings, hoses and quick connects needed are similar to a JD 2520 as follows:
DSCV BLOCK, FRONT PORT
9-6805-6-6 SAE 6M TO 3/8" NPTF 90 ELBOW, QTY=1
DSCV BLOCK, REAR PORT
9-6901-6-6 SAE 6M TO 3/8" NPTF 90 SWIVEL, QTY=1
9-5503-6-63/8" NPTM TO 3/8" NPTF 45 ELBOW, QTY=1
PB HOSES
903-3836 3/8" X 36" 3/8 NPTM X 3/8 NPTM 2750 PSI HYD HOSE, QTY=2
9-A2-172-D 3/8 IN SINGLE WIRE DUAL HYDRAULIC HOSE CLAMP, QTY=1
VALVE INLET/OUTLET PORTS TO PB HOSES
9-6901-8-6 SAE 8M x 3/8 NPTF 90 SWIVEL, QTY=2
VALVE WORK PORTS TO DIRECT ATTACHED QUICK COUPLERS
9-6902-8-6 SAE 8M x 3/8 NPTF 45 SWIVEL, QTY=4
9-7184 3/8" NPTM - 3/8" NPTM HEX NIPPLE, QTY=4
9-7381-F 3/8 NPTF QUICK COUPLER, QTY=4
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated if I'm on the right track and where do you recommend ordering hydraulic components.
Oh, the video on the Summit hydraulic rear connection kit was awesome as was the adding power beyond videos. Great job!!
discounthydraulichose.com or summit-hydraulics.com use code ttwt for 5% at each site.
Good informative video guys. Can i bring my 3E down and join the flow testing party? Ha ha
Sure!
Great information. Is the pressure relief mounted in line or in the pump and can it be adjusted to increase pressure.
Mostly they need to be shimmed if and when it is safe to raise it Google your specific machine there will likely be a forum on how to do it
flow can be done with a water meter and the correct hydro lines connected just make sure the machine is off before connecting and make sure the machine comes completely off before disconnecting. water meters aren't designed for the higher pressures until you get to sky scraper meters.
Roughly electrically... Flow is voltage, Pressure is amperage, load is resistance. 10K volts at tiny amperage won't hurt you, static shock. 120 volts at 10 amps may kill you. So 100 gallons an hour at low pressure is a trash pump. One half gallon an hour at 10k PSI will cut your finger off.
Great video, Flow=Fast, Pressure=Power
Pressure is force, not power. Power is force x time. Cheers!
As an analogy, seems oil pressure is like voltage and oil flow is like amperage. Pressure does the work and flow gives the power.
Hey I know you have done this before but I need a few links . A while back you posted a link for Tie Down Straps ( I think ) The heavy duty tire down straps I buy from TSC are a pain to operate. I mainly use them for tying down hay loads .
Think of pressure as voltage and flow was amperage. In hydraulics if the flow is low but pressure is normal (voltage is normal) then you have a bypass somewhere. If it is not popping the relief valve where ever the bypass is will heat up. We used to test dual hydraulic motors by placing them under heavy load and the one that got hot was the bad one. We did have a testing device called a hydrosluth back in the 70’s that you could use to isolate the suspected component to test it. If the flow is low but the pressure is ok not much work will get done, think of low current as low flow.
What stops the flow after line repair change? No fluid is flowing into my rear element panel, so nothing on the back is working.
If you are going to add a valve to the power beyond (if you have those hoses on your tractor) you must install a control valve that has a power beyond port (as is or with a special PB plug). A regular control valve only has tank return (low pressure) and will damage the hydraulic system.
Yes. The summit-hydraulics rear hydraulic kits that we promote are rated for ‘back pressure’. So, they can handle being directly in the PB circuit.
Check out our later episodes showing this kit.
Great video guys. Learned a lot.
Summary flow test can be done by timing the speed of raising the FEL empty.
My 2038R does not have a rear remote or. 3rd function for a grapple. I would like to get a rear remote installed. Would you recommend mother Deere or an aftermarket like WR Long .
Deere for the rear remotes. Artillian diverter for the 3rd function up front.
If it works like your diagram, how would it ever be possible to send fluid to 2 cylinders at once? It looks like whichever cylinder is first in line will stop all flow from the following cylinders.
my Kubota mechanic told me if i unhook the backhoe and not re-hook up the power beyond to the return hose, it will blow up the hydraulic pump in 3 seconds if i start the tractor, 1. is that true, 2, does that mean power beyond doesn't have a relief valve ?
That is incorrect, you do have a PRV. Still not a good idea to run the tractor without the PB lines connected though.
Here's a test you could do. Test the pressure loss of a short hose to one say triple the length. Then let folks know why steel lines are used as much as possible. A set of calipers gives a good visual. ;)
I see most compact tractors have two ratings for flow. One for implement and another for steering and then a total of the two. If you arent using the steering does that flow go to the implement?
No. Tractors which list them separately have two separate pumps, with two separate circuits for steering and implement.
The steering number is basically a waste…assuming the tractor steers fine. Only thing you need to care about is the implement flow.
Wonderful explanation. Now as to your comment on the difficulty of connections for a flow test, if your tractor has a power beyond loop, would it be easy enough just to tap in right there at the quick connectors? If I understood correctly, that's just a longer length of the main loop so it should have full flow and pressure right? So it's just a matter of some easy connections and the cost of the gauge/s. Love your videos, keep up the good work!
We got a pre-owned Mahindra 1533 last November and it came with a backhoe from the manufacturer. The main seat swivels backwards. I am curious (with the backhoe off) what it would take to connect onto the back hydraulic line and to bring a (pair) line to the front loader for a grapple. Obviously it needs a controller between the line and the front. Is that all? perhaps even use/steal the backhoe controllers?
Good stuff!!!
Can you estimate the flow by just taking the diameter and length of travel for a cylinder (or two if it's a loader), and then time it and calculate the volume of fluid that moved into the cylinder(s) during that period of time to get gallons per minute?
Yes.
Great Info
First Comment. Thanks for the basics on hydraulics.
You didn’t mention anything about the effect of cylinder piston size on the force of a cylinder . The bigger the piston , in square inches , the more force the cylinder will exert, but at a slower speed . For example if a log splitter in connected to a tractor hydraulic system it’s cylinder will be larger that most tractor cylinders so it will move much slower but will more force .
i know this is a old video but i have a question concerning the ''pb'' power beyond circuit, my tractor( duets allis 5220) has a 7 port control valve , in , out ,4 work ports & a power beyond.My control valve went bad & the front bucket won't raise but the 3 point hitch cylinders still work . So my question is can i run a Y (split the incoming fluid) for the in & the pb? thanks
Is your tractor open center or closed center?
I don’t know much about closed center hydraulics. For open center, never use a tee. Always keep the ‘loop’ flow intact.
@@TractorTimewithTim it is a open center, from what im gathering ''after'' messaging you is that i need a PB valve & it would go to the N port on my control valve, thats info im gathering & thanks for the reply ,appreciate it
How to a tractor hydraulics deutz 3006 to come out air?
Can you do a show on adding a secondary pump to a pto so you can use available HP to use front mounted brushes, blowers, mowers, hole diggers or anything else with high flow requirements and can two systems be combined to increase total flow?
We have shown a front loader mount mower with rear hydraulic power pack.
No, systems cannot be combined.
What would cause high pressure, but weak hydro transmission in an X748? Anti cavitation screens partially blocked? Or something else?
Unplug power beyond loop connect each end to flow guage.
Hi guys, great video,was wondering if you could direct me to info on bleeding the hydraulics in the backhoe of a mahindra e25 max.I had to change a line on the bucket, which worked fine, but since that the boom and swing function dont work properly.
Just extend all the way then bring it all the way back in several tiems
Great explaination. Can you reverse the connections to the port to make the cylinder work the opposite without doing any damage, for example, can I reverse the loader to the raise position and make it go down instead and vice versa?
Yes.
Probably a dumb question... Do hydraulic line extensions come with fluid in them? Or do they reduce what's in the reservoir?
They use oil from the reservoir.
i figured you would talk about open and closed loop systems, most Deere are closed loop I think, I know 40 series are
Small ones are all open center.
I have a shaver Hd8 post pounder. I would like to put it on my 3025e on the power beyond. It has two hoses. One pressure going in and one that hooks to a case drain. Could I make a loop like you have Tim that had a T on it to feed the pounder so it doesn’t block the loop but feeds off it. The relief hose on the pounder has to go to a case drain so the pounder will fall as it should. Thanks for any help you can give. Im hoping the T will work.
Anytime you say ‘T’ in open center Hydraulics, you are typically on the wrong track.
My 2R (same basic tractor) has 3 ports for PB. P, R, and T.
Pressure, return, and tank. If you have that, you are set! If not, work with your dealer to get a direct tank drain line.
The R line goes to the 3 point…it is not a direct tank drain.
@@TractorTimewithTim thanks. I will work with them to try to find the right configuration. Best wishes and always great work. 🙌
How do you isolate the steering hydraulics so you can drive a broken backhoe home?
Depends on where the problem is. I won’t be able to help remotely. Sorry.
Virtually all Hydraulics work in a circuit. Automotive power steering, Skid Steer, etc. Even the main 3-point is a circuit, it just has one side of the piston. There was a point in the diagram that really shows how the line is diverted from the main loop to do some work, but you didn't really point it out. The reason operating 2 or more functions at a time slows down is because you are tapping that main loop multiple times, so the overall flow is reduced to each. Pressure should remain the same, but the flow is reduced. IF the functions are all the exact same flow rate, the reduction would be 50/50, but in the real world, things rarely ever divide that evenly.
When a function operates:
1) the loop is blocked so that the flow will go to your function.
2) the function supply is opened and the return is opened.
3) fluid is pumped into the function.
Like you said, if flow is stopped for any reason (load, end of travel, etc) the pressure relief opens.
My bucket seems like I need to build up pressure or it's a little floppy with the bucket tilt function, any ideas what would cause that?
Read the sticky thread about "regeneration" or "regen" in the hydraulics forum on the GTT site
You have air in your cylinders. Air is compressible so when you operate the valve the air will become compressed by the hydraulic oil and the floppy ness lessons. You will need to bleed the air out of your cylinders. Air can enter when you uncouple & couple the quick disconnects.
@@michaeleisinger8668 The systems self-purge air, there is no need to "bleed" them.
Hopefully you gentlemen will develop a kit to reposition the rear hydraulic ports on a LX 2610 or LX 3310. It seems Kubota didn't know the tractor would have a ROPS in the way when locating them. Sad situation on an otherwise great design.
Had a thought to propose for resolution. Take a pair of Ken's ROPS clamps and attach one of his diverters to each one so they are outside the ROPS like ears on the tractor. Use through mount switches that can be cut into the plastic, one in front of each of the rear remote levers. Run a hose pair from the current rear remote block to each of the two diverter boxes. Solves problem, and doubles capacity. Make flat face females on the blocks an option so hydraulic fluid is not always leaking down the fenders :-). This way I could use the ditch bank flail and not have to disconnect the hydraulic top link. Haven't yet located a workable hydraulic tilt for this tractor. Keep up the great work!
you can measure the flow by counting the time a cylinder with known volume takes to extend, for free
If you wanted to measure flow rate, couldn’t you just disconnect a hose and let the pump run fluid into a bucket with a stop watch?
That would be at about zero pressure, of course, so maybe that wouldn’t be helpful for troubleshooting problems.
For a few seconds until the reservoir is empty!
As an aviation mechanic I know where i can barrow one of these flow gauges because we use these on our aircraft.
UNITED Airlines crj 550 Go Jet Airlines.
Question... during winter warm ups, will it harm the pump to hold down on the hydro pedal for any length of time???
oh yes... while in the netural position.
I dunno. Never even thought of that!
Now cover open vs closed circuit spools! :)
No need really for our audience. All compact tractors are open center.
Came here trying to figure out why my JD 1025R will only lift bucket half way. Help.
Unplug/reply your hydraulic couplers.
Do you know if Hydraulics use a lot of electricity to lift something, or does the device itself make the action of lifting less strenuous on the machine lowering the energy needed to lift it?
Very little electricity….just enough to ‘switch’ the valve. The lifting is done by the tractors hydraulic pump.
Help!
I bought a ford 1920 tractor(1996 year) model and it has the added two cylinder valve block. One is for top link and one for right link. If I pull up lift it does nothing until I move one of the added levers, then load will raise. Is it plumbed wrong??? Drives me crazy when blading or raking!
Thank You
Sounds like it is plumbed wrong.
@@TractorTimewithTim I think so too! I'm seeking someone who has the same setup to help me out. I'm baffled by the fact that either lever can be moved for one second and it raises 3-point. It's like it is tied into draft sensing circuit. Maybe it needs to be on it's own pump. It does NOT have a loader.
Recommendation for future videos, do not let a person with nervous movement tendencies hold a piece of paper near their microphone...quite distracting.