The Dueling Expert: A Unique Rogue Paladin Multiclass | D&D 5e
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- Опубликовано: 8 ноя 2023
- One of the multiclass options I see the least is Rogue and Paladin, but today we're going to take our shot at it.
This build is a multiclass combination of the Swashbuckler Rogue and the Oath of Conquest Paladin.
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IF (and it's a big if) Critical role content is allowed, I think a Oath of the Open Seas 3/Arcane Trickster X is amazing. You always have advantage thanks to your Channel Divinity, plus you can Booming Blade with a Whip, adding Smites on top of it. Add Sentinel for some crowd control and you have a wonderful damage dealing front liner that doesn't actually get hit that often.
I actually don’t believe booming blade works with whip as the range of BB is self (5 foot radius) and BB says you attack a creature within 5 feet of you
It can but you have to get spell sniper feat
Totally forgot about BB's range. Thank you to the people that pointed that out. I still believe it's a good build, even with that extra feat toll.
The range of booming blade is now self (5 ft). Unfortunately, this means it no longer works with spell sniper.
Infuriating change, but that’s the way it goes I guess.
@@pjenner79 yeah I don’t believe spell sniper works on radius or self effect spells, but if you want reach go bugbear and use a d8 weapon and your better off anyways
For me rogue paladin is an sacred assasin, some kind of inquisitor and for that I'll take vengance paladin + assasin rogue, you can inflict some big numbers and give yourself advantage against an enemy so you can always use sneak attack against it.
I like when someone thinks like me.
Maybe add in a single Level Warlock hexblade - means you can push Charisma as your Main stat, Gain the Shield Spell, And above all Booming blade til you get to Paladin 5. - Thanks for asking how we all are, that’s nice energy!
One thing I don't think you mentioned that is another benefit of the Swashbuckler: You add your Charisma modifier to your initiative roll.
I'd also go Swashbuckler, but pick Oath of the Watchers for the Paladin Oath, since Watcher's Aura is a boost to initiative, which is always going to be relevant. At high levels, this character's initiative rolls are d20+Dex+Cha+PB, so they are going to be going first a lot.
I'd also throw in a level of Hexblade Warlock, so I can just take 13 Str and 14 Dex for multiclassing and maximizing medium armor AC, then putting the rest into Charisma and Constitution. At tier 3 play, I'd probably also mix in levels of College of Whispers Bard for the extra spell slots and Psychic Blades. In a hypothetical 20th-level character, it'd be something like Swashbuckler 3/Hexblade Warlock 1/Watchers Paladin 7/Whispers Bard 9.
My take on that build would be 13 str, max Dex, rest into charisma and wisdom. Then, take the Gloomstalker Ranger and a 1 level dip into twilight cleric, 2 level dip if you want the channel divinities, and the alert feat. Now your initiative is D20 + Dex + Cha + Wis + Proficiency + 5, with advantage, as well as having an additional attack on the first turn.
It's true that you'd be front loading the damage, but Rogue 7, Paladin 7, Ranger 4, Cleric 2 is still a solid build. Moreso if your DM runs the "Total Level ASI's" Varient rule, so you don't have to work it around ASI's. Plus, with Gloomstalker, as long as you're fighting at night or in darkness, and the enemy doesn't have blindsight or truesight, you just get advantage to hit and they have disadvantage to hit you.
I think a homebrew rule that could open the door to a lot of fun builds would be to eliminate the STR and DEX requirements for multiclassing paladin and ranger, while leaving the CHA and WIS, what do you guys think?
I think ranger needing two stats at 13 with how underpowered they are is a crime.
Paladin is fine. It is a strong class and the double stat requirement in strength is more like bells and whistles because smite does not work with anything than a strength weapon.
I'd say the better fix, is that, much like with fighter, the restriction should be 13 Dex or Strength. Dex Paladins are fun, but you're kinda cooked if you want to Multiclass, unless you want to waste an attunement slot on gauntlets of ogre power.
Doing well enough. Maybe a solid 80% on the scale of well to unwell.
Would love to see you build the "dwarfiest dwarf". Someone who focuses around the dwarf racial feat.
Glad you're well! Neat idea! I'll add it to the list
Uber dwarf? Chad dwarf?
Yeah! I'd love some sort of dwarf that takes advantage of the bloodwell vial + dwarven fortitude + monk
@@adamfitzpatrick2366 anything with a weaponized bonus action works well too. Cleric with spiritual weapon and spirit guardians comes to mind. Or sorcerers and quickened spells. Or artificer for infusion items and theif rogue for fast hands with the healer feat
I have essentially this same build sitting around unfinished in a roll20 sheet somewhere, really cool to know I'm not the only person who sees paladins as duelists rather than exclusively frontliners with some damage skills
I feel the same! I've had people argue with me about them being solid duelists which is just confusing to me :P
@@DnD_Daily class identity runs deeper than mechanics sometimes, but if you look at Ike in Smash Bros dashing around the screen and dropping gigantic flaming sword hits and don't think it absolutely screams Paladin then idk what to tell you 🤷
Hey. Thanks for asking! I'm good.
I’m working crunch hours to get a bunch of inspections done before snow and cold really set in. 12 hours each day, but I’m paid hourly and I’ll be done mid next week so it’s not too bad.
My dnd group is getting a little frustrating though, a few of us want to start the next campaign at level 3 so we can all have our subclasses or maybe get a little multiclassing in. 2 others in our group, including the guy who would be running the game, are very much that the story of the character starts at level 1. I’m just kinda tired of playing levels 1 to 5 and then things stop. Plus it lets me make a character with more personality and identity if they have a couple levels and abilities.
Dang, way to put in the work! Hopefully your group can work it out in a way everyone's satisfied. Good luck!
Get that level mentality so so much. I've been playing off and on since D&D 3.0 in 2001 and I've very rarely ever got a character past level 5 before group issues happen but just like you half or more of the group insists lvl 1 is the proper way to start😕
there's only so much goblin fighting I can stomach too!
Life's allowing me to watch your videos, so I can't complain 👍
Hmm. I would probably go vengeance paladin and arcane trickster rogue. Namely if I’m playing a rogue paladin I want to lay down that devastating blow of sneak attack and smite. The problem is if I want to get big sneak attack that requires deep investment into rogue, but if I want smites I need spell slots. The arcane trickster rogue solves this. I could see going only 2 paladin and the rest in rogue just for smites, but if you wanted more of a martial feel you could get extra attack and if you did aura of protection is right there at 6. If I did pick up a subclass I would go vengeance for vow of enmity so I could have guaranteed sneak attack on the target I wanted to make no longer living.
What level spell is “Chad Energy?”
11th
Assassin Rogue + any Paladin sets up an instant crit for your smites, which can be silly sometimes. Plus, i like the idea of an oathbound assassin, think a zealotous assassin devoted to the church, targeting those who attempt to undermine or roadblock the church's progress.
Awesome idea!
The grappling is kinda tricky. Have to have a free hand. You would have to not draw your weapon until after or forgo the shield. Could land you in a situation where youre either down 2 AC until you use an action to ready the shield or leave you unable to make opportunity attacks until your weapon is drawn.
Couple tricks i see here is to go with an elf and take the double scimitar for a finesse weapon and a free hand with the defense fighting style to not lose AC or play a Loxodon and have your weapon being held in your trunk for quick access.
I'm currently playing a Paladin/Rogue "Duelist" in a campaign of almost 2 years now. He is a halfling paladin of Tymora (watchers oath) and Swashbuckler. I decided to go full Dex vs strength (rolled stats, so was still able to put 13 into STR for the multi-class restriction without having to dump two stats to compensate), although, if you have a class to dump Int and Wis on with lowest repercussion, Paladin definitely is one (thanks to Aura of Protection). Very high initiative from Watchers Aura + DEX + CHA has me going first 95% of the time (and the rest of my party going early too thanks to them getting aura boost too). Cunning action helps most mobility issues of short race to get into position early. Luck feat + Halfling really helps deal with natural 1s and natural 20's. Duelist fighting style also does wonders to help increase damage from my Rapier and shield setup. Sentinel feat as well helps to keep groups engaged with me vs my group or use tactics like you mentioned for one-on-one isolation of bosses.
I think people too often stereotype Rogues as shady or unscrupulous characters, which is why they don't see them fitting with their ideal Paladin vibe. Truth is Rogues can be devout and upstanding just as Paladins can now be cold and calculating. Building a character to utilize some of the great synergies that can exist between the classes can be a really fun character to play from both a mechanical as well as roleplay perspective. My Halfling Paladin of Tymora is a reformed Gambler with an addiction that he is constantly struggling to overcome. Hense his proficiencies in Deception and Sleight of Hand.
Doing good. Love the content. Did a one shot with your heavy armor blaster sorc build. Was a ton of fun. Have you ever built a character specifically focused on tackling enemies?
Excellent video as always. Fun concept. I never really look at paladins anymore ( bad experiences with them in earlier editions of DND) I'm doing well, your videos make my work day much more fun. Wondering if you could and another challenge build idea to your list, you already have your version of the aberrant mind sorcerer build, and you did the blaster version of it , was wondering if you could do a gish version of it. I've been racking my brain to make it single class, I know I have to start with shadar kai for the weapon profincy,. Im trying to make it into something like the bladesinger using quicken spell to bonus action spells and booming blade as the melee attack. And I know I need the gunner feat or the crossbow feat for being able to cast without disadvantage within 5 feet.
Thanks Glitch! Seeing you around always brightens my day so I'm glad it's mutual. That's a tricky challenge! I've added it to the list!
@@DnD_Daily thank you, and yes very tricky, but each time I reread the 6 lvl ability to cast the expanded spells with sorcery points without verbal or somatic or material as long as they are not consumed it really opens up a gish play style without the war caster tax. But this makes them a glass cannon. No armor proficiency and small hit points, but like you say often, if a subclass can do something unique and interesting, even if it's not the most efficient, do the interesting thing
14 dex and 13 cha with +2 dex and +1 cha from racial on top of a 14 con. Oath of devotion gives +CHA mod to hit and Bless is an amazing buff for the party. What levels you take when depends on where youre at when you start the campaign. If you start 3rd level or earlier take paladin for survivability but if youre level 4 or later you can start of with swashbuckler and take magic initiate: Wizard. Booming blade, mage hand, and find familiar. Familiar (owl) gives advantage, Booming Blade works perfect with stick and move, and Mage Hand is Rogues best friend. So by character level 7 (4 rogue, 3 paladin) you have +8 (+d4) with advantage to hit. And damage would be 4d8+2d6+5 (30 avg) with another potential 2d8 (9 avg) once they move. After that go to paladin 6 picking up +2 to CHA then Rogue the rest of the way.
I did an Urchin Pally build but i went the oposite of you Rogue one high Dex going 14 17 10 8 10 14. Human with the Sheild Master feat at first level. he was a sneak up (your fault if you did not hear him) and sheild bash knocking you prone (you should have been stronger the the 14 year old) then stab him. He wore a breast plate and used Bear hide rather then leathers or pad under it. It was a gift from the an half or preistess that helped him out. Because of his size and age behind his back he is called the teddy bear palidian to his face he is defencive but secretly loves the nickname
Friend of mine is playing a Half-elf (high elf variant for booming blade) Swashbukler 3 / paladin vengeance 5 (aiming for paladin 6 then going rogue 7) she have 18 dex and 16 car, almost always proc BB for the hit and run stile and the ammount of damage she does when she smite is insane, Wrathful smite block enemy from follow and she will have all the mobilty that she need for end the round in a place where the aura is most effective. she started rogue for all that good prof
after paladin 11th with the extra 1d8 radiant damage on each strike could be worthwhile discussing with your DM if Tavern Brawler and/or Shield Master could grant you an offhand attack for 3 attacks a round...roughly equating to the same damage output as an 11th level rogues SA! This on the rounds where your bonus action isn't needed to disengage or cast spells.
I think putting 3 levels into paladin and the rest in rogue with the subclasses Vengeance and Arcane Trickster is also a good choice. Arcane Trickster gives you spell slots for smites while Vengeance allows get off sneak attacks easy. Some feats you can take are mobile to get out of danger, Elven Accuracy for triple advantage, and Lucky is always good.
I wanted to try swashbuckler oathbreaker so the weapon attacks have the charisma added on to them
Eh. Holiday blahs. It will improve cuz I have great wife and lots to be thankful for
A good woman makes all the difference. I'm glad you're appreciative of yours 😊
Redemption paladin with a pike or other 10 ft weapon and polearm master rogue bugbear is a pretty cool combo
Vengence + Phantom - Be an elf for the Double bladed Scimitar Feat. Take Great weapon fighting to reroll the sneak attack damage.
I did something different where I did Open Sea Paladin and swords bard. I thing choosing Open Sea for your build would work better than Crown
For a duelist Rogueadin, I would dump strength at 13 and be a dex based half elf with the elven accuracy feat. If the half elf variant feature is allowed, I would take the Eladrin's Fey Step ability, the potential season effects seemed too useful to pass up, but shadar kai or high elf could be good too if you want to be a bit more durable or get green flame or booming blade.
For level allocation, I would ultimately aim for swashbuckler rogue (8) & vengeance paladin (12). I would go paladin first for wis save proficiency. Fighting style will probably be defense, though blind fighting is also appealing. Expertise in Stealth, Athletics, Acrobatics and either deception, persuasion or intimidation for out of combat. Perception or another charisma expertise might be more optimal in lieu of one or 2 of the others.
You will want to have a good dex and charisma score, stats are 13 17 14 8 8 15 after applying the +2 +1 +1. For feats: resilient +1 dex, elven accuracy +1 charisma, +2 charisma, +2 cha, +2 dex.
You will eventually have +10 to initiative, +16 to dex saves [and evasion, and made with advantage while hasted], +10 to wis saves [with immunity to fear and adv on saves against being charmed], +7 to con saves. Your Fey Step and spell casting DC will be 19. When two weapon fighting you are eventually adding 1d8 radiant to all 3 [and on a readied attack with more sneak from haste. Alternatively when haste is too risky, you could add +1d6 or 1d8 to your 3 attacks if concentrating on Hunter's Mark or Spirit Shroud respectively], and you can save your 4d6 sneak attack and smites dice for a crit or your 3rd attack, given the their likelihood from the vow of enmity and elven accuracy interactions. Between fancy footwork, cunning action-dash and haste, you can have AMAZING mobility, making it very difficult for non-ranged enemies to get their strikes in and swash a lot of buckles while you're at it. You could occasionally opt to use a shield in place of two weapon fighting for 20 AC [22 with haste] and uncanny dodge available for when you do get hit, could be a good idea if you find your bonus action is usually busy with other things [channel divinity, fey step, cunning action, or the abundance of paladin bonus action spells]
Also, that last +2 dex is not essential. If you want more durability [beyond the potential +60 of recovery from lay on hands] you could swap the +2 dex ASI for +2 con, or the tough, healer or Inspiring leader feats. Sentinel or Mage Slayer are options if you want to try to go for reaction sneak attacks. There's also Dual Wielder for this, allowing you to wield whip and rapier to have both 5' and 10' reach ranges, which would allow for enemies to provoke sneak attack when they moved out of either range [and could be useful for party positioning from the Relentless Avenger feature] . Slasher +1 strength could further increase the mobility divide, reducing an enemies speed by 10 and giving their attacks disadvantage whenever you crit. Or, there's always Alert for +14 to initiative and surprised immunity]
I'm enjoying a Monk/Rogue build with a dip into Fighter. It's not perfect, but I'm trying to keep this build from relying on any spellcasting.
I completely see in the original D&D lore the Halfling Goddess Yondalla had a mental brake and got a split personality causing a her to manafest as Dallah Thaun the godess of mischievous and opportunistic
I'm doing quite fine tbh, Just had a rough week but i'm recovering now.
^^
How about you man?
Glad things are getting better for you! I'm doing well, looking forward to going to a concert with the family!
@@DnD_Daily hell yeah!
What concert is it if i may ask?
Like, what band or artist you going to enjoy??
Doing ok. 🤷♂️
I'm not gonna lie, it's been a long week already. But thanks for asking, it means a lot.
Hope the weekend is good to you!
Thankfully it's a 3 day weekend for me, I finally made it. Your video helped me get through the day today, thank you. @@DnD_Daily
Lol had the rest of my upper teeth pulled so im doing pretty bad lol but thanks for askin😂
It would be interesting to hear how you would rank all your builds i terms of power, and other parameters as utiliti, flavor etc.
As for multiclassing a duelist, i probably would go straight paladin, og go fighter for 3 lvl instead. Rouge for 3 lvls dosent give alot imo.
Level 3 swashbucklers can walk in and out of combat without needing to disengage. That is definitely worth it
@@paulknowles3018 but. You are an ac 19 to 22 ish front liner with good hp. You would weaken your team more by going in and out of combat like that.
Just seems not worth it for the few ekstra features rouges get.
Make no mistake, i am currently playing a swashbucler/Battlemaster with basically the same playstyle, but im goint 3 fighter rest rouge. More rouge lvls justify it a bit more i think 🙂
Paladin is just very hard to lvl out of
@@MrTuc0b101010 you're not weakening your team because you will have compelled duel or wrathful smite, so they have disadvantage on attacks against anyone but you.
☕️ ☕️
Hey Trying to make a Build that has every additional type of Damage, I have almost everything but is Janky Multiclass!
So Far I have an Protected Aasimar (Radiant)
Giant Foundlings for Fire Strike (Fire)
8 Level Order Cleric for Divine Strike (Psychic) + Spirit Shroud (Cold)
3 Spores Druid - Symbiotic Entity (Necrotic)
3 Drakewarden Ranger Draconic Infusion (Lightning)
6 Blade Singer Wizard for Booming Blade (Thunder)
Took Feats-
Gift of Elemental Dragon (Acid)
Poisoner (Poison)
I was having Trouble trying to add the Force Damage can't find a feat or non-concentration spell to get it on top of it all. So at level 20 allowed one Magic Items Eldrich Claw for (Force)
This is a very all over the place one to stack a bonus action per round so takes minimum of 6 rounds to get active. But curious is there a better way to achieve this or a way without an Item
psi warrior fighter 3 could get you force damage when you attack. The fighter levels also get you action surge so you could set up the aasimar transformation in the same round. I would drop both order cleric 8 and drake warden ranger from the mix, you can then access psychic damage from fey wanderer ranger 3 and take the druidic warrior fighting style for primal savagery, then take djinni genie warlock 1 for thunder damage. We'll get necrotic damage once per sort rest from death cleric 2's channel divinity. With bladesinger wizard 6 you get spirit shroud [cold] and cantrip extra attack, which you could use to cast primal savagery from your ranger levels of acid damage. We will swap your strike of the giant's association from fire to lightning, and for the fire damage, you will wield a lit torch as a melee weapon. Since it's seems highly likely that a dm won't let you poison a burning torch, we will drop that feat, and get poison damage from gift of the chromatic dragons instead of lightning.
So it's online with 15 levels [PW fighter 3, FW ranger 3, Djinni genie warlock 1, bladesinger 6, death cleric 2], 2 feats [the strike of the giants from your background, and gift of the chromatic dragons] and 1 burning torch. Psychic, thunder, necrotic, force and acid require no setup, a torch burns for an hour, you can get everything else setup with 2 action [transform, extra attack-cantrip and 2 bonus actions [spirit shroud, chromatic dragon feat]. That's the best I can think of right now
RAW, a torch isn't a weapon, so ymmv regarding the dragon feat and psi warrior dice. If torches won't fly, switch to efreeti warlock and add armorer artificer 3 for thunder gauntlets.
In hindsight, ascendant dragon monk 3 could cover 4 different elements with one action and bonus action on its own if all the attacks hit, or 5 if you cast haste [via wizard] on yourself.
@@elliotbryant3459 Just seeing this, Incredible work I would never have though to just use a torch for fire!
I may stat them out to see is everything covered but amazing it was achieved in 15 Levels!
@@elliotbryant3459 Looking at this the only other thing that I think by RAW wont work too Primal Savagery, WIth Booming Blade and Green Flame blade it states that the weapon does its normal effects while Primal Savagery is done by your nails/teeth and doesn't state additional melee effects carry over!
@@AdamM17895 thanks! Acid Splash [via wizard] is also an option in lieu of primal savagery. Could be flavored as emerging as a splash damage part of the previous attack like GFB but with a saving throw
2nd!
Yeah but why don't Just go Dex and medium armor? There's also the medium armor master feat
You need 13 strength to multiclass out of paladin, so he decided to use that strength to tank.
@@paulknowles3018 thanks, I always forgot the multiclass in or *out* thing
Batman
I'm just glad you went strength. So tired of Dex builds. Especially Dexadins. Thank goodness you still need Str to wear heavy armor or no one would make them. When making my characters, I am kinda racist. Not in a derogatory way, but just characters should conform to their racial stereotypes unless there is an overriding reason that's core to the character (but most of the time, there isn't). So half-orcs, dragonborn, and goliaths should be big and strong. So thanks for that. My version would be a half-elf crown paladin/swashbuckler. (I'm really going to miss half-elves and half-orcs next year. That's one change that really bothers me. Half-races have a rich history in D&D and getting rid of them for the sake of the twitter mob who's never happy anyway get me irked) As for me, I'm good. Just had my 50th birthday and I'm healthier and in better shape than I've been in years. And I'm attempting to adapt some old AD&D modules for my backup group.
Happy half a century! That's impressive my friend! And Yeah, Dex is for bottoms ;)
From what I understand, they aren't getting rid of half-races conceptually. They just won't have mechanical differences; you'll choose one of the parent races for your stats. Are you more elvish or humanish? Use the stats of whichever seems closest. That way you can have half-whatever. Want a half-tiefling/half-orc? Go for it. Half-elf/half-dwarf? Yessir! Half-goliath/half-kobold? You're nuts, and you're DM should punish you severely! But regardless, you won't be limited to half-human and half-orc/elf.
That's what I mean. Half-elves and Half-orcs were special. They were distinct from their parent races. Now I can have a half elf/half human but it's really just reskinned human or elf. The history and traditions of half-elves and half-orcs will be gone. By making it possible to have ANY combination, you eliminated what made these races special. Because when everyone is special, nobody is. The way they are handling lineages in 1D&D basically minimizes the differences between the races. Being a halfling meant something! Or a dwarf or an elf! By tying your ability modifiers to your background, you are taking the heritage and culture away from the races.
Honestly, paladin is so MAD already that spending almost 20% of your points on DEX when you're never going to actually use the stat is practically indefensible. Even with a one-level Hexblade dip, I don't see where the points come from (assuming point buy or standard array) to make this build anything but mediocre. You need at least a 15 STR to wear plate mail effectively, after all.
The only way I can see to optimize this build would be to play a Mountain Dwarf, use the Tasha's optional rule to place +2 in CON and CHA, and take a one-level Hexblade dip immediately after taking paladin 1. And even that isn't exactly "optimized" since you're wasting 10 points (using point buy) on attributes you'll never actually use. Plus the build won't actually come together until *AT LEAST* level 5 (most campaigns end around level 10-11) and you wouldn't get your first ASI until level 8.
If you really want to know how an optimizer would combine paladin and rogue, it would be to not bother and multiclass into bard instead. 😛😉