A friend of mine that is a skilled shotgunner taught me all the techniques you showed plus one more. Once I had done everything you mentioned then he said "get mad because you are about to fight with a shotgun" and it worked. No issues and fast shooting. Sounds silly but it works.
It's very true. I happen to be used to shooting steel butt plated 30 caliber battle rifles, so I'm not bothered by hard kicking firearms, but when I shoot my 12 gauge 870, I handle and shoot it very aggressively, because, as your friend pointed out, if you ever have to use it for real, it's going to be an ugly day and most likely somebody's gonna die. Another point taught to me by a police firearms instructor is to train with target/bird shot. You save a lot of cost and recoil, and when the time comes to use it for real, fight or flight will kick in and you won't even notice the harder recoil of the buckshot or slugs.
Would be nice to use bird shot but my range does not allow it. They say the bird shot would bounce back but buckshot and slugs do not. Ah well, moving soon, maybe a range that allows other rounds will be in my new area.
Are we talking an indoor range? Or outdoor? That reasoning sounds like a load of rubbish to me; from my experience, bird shot loses its energy very quickly. Even if it were to bounce back, which is unlikely, it would have so little energy left that it would be effectively harmless. Would they let you use a target shot, like a #4 for example? It's significantly larger in size than bird shot, but still far less expensive and less recoil than buckshot.
Ahhh, okay, well that might be another matter; I shoot at outdoor ranges almost exclusively, and nothing ever bounces back.. Although I would think setting a minimum distance might address it. I still doubt that bird shot would have much of any energy left after bouncing back off a rubber backstop, but the annoyance factor could be enough to justify it.
I purchased a shotgun for home defense over a year ago and it has been siting in the closet boxed up because I have been terrified of recoil. Never ever shot it. Watching your video has encouraged me to unbox this purchase and go to the range to try to shoot it with buckshot. I commend you on your excellent presentation. I was going to spend the morning researching videos on how to shoot the shotgun. Yours was the first I watched and I am going to stop there and go to the range to see if I can implement your pointers. Keep up the good work
The most unpopular and loudest are the ones given the platform. People our age are disgusted with the way the country is, lying when polled out of fear, and some are true ideologues.
I inherited a shotgun a few days before the Coronavirus shutdown because of one of your videos. I want to thank you for your video training. I am able so sort myself out at the range and protect my family. You have made a big difference in my life. Thanks.
Tip number two is honestly the absolute best tip. In the sheriffs department they taught us to use the trauma pad in the center of the vest as the butt plate to pull the shot gun into. Without it the closer into the center of the chest or where ever you have the most muscle to lock that stock into will help with recoil and keeping the shot gun from climbing. Good stuff.
@@grits_taste_good415 I'd love to see how to do that with makeshift tools. I've kept a bunch of shells. I guess I could try to start punching out old primers with a regular brass punch or even a nail.
@@VTPSTTU After watching some videos you can get creative and combine some of the cheap items/elements of makeshift setups. Look up "Simple 12 GA Reloading Kit" on RUclips. The thumbnail should have a single shot shotgun, a Cigar box, a rubber mallet, and a black bottle.
@@grits_taste_good415 Thanks for the tip. I want to try that. I had thought about just drilling a hole in a piece of wood to use as a base for removing the spent primers. His device would last longer, but the wood could be replaced if it started to deform too much. His priming setup with the pipe inside the shell looked awkward, but maybe I could make something that would be the equivalent of that antique priming tool. I think I'd rather use shot and powder recipes from a reloading manual and just use commercial wad cups. Not being able to crimp the shell bothers me a little. Have you tried his method on shells that you cycled through a pump-action shotgun? If the shell has the strength to cycle through the action without deforming and getting stuck, this could work very well. I would also consider using paraffin instead of glue to seal the end.
@@VTPSTTU I haven't been able to get out to the range. Not enough time. Otherwise I would've tested my rounds. If you would like to look at a load graph, check out the Hodgdon website. Over 2300 12 gauge loads on there.
I love the affordability aspect of a shotgun. I picked up my 18" Mossberg Maverick 88 for $199. I've been getting S&B Buckshot for $.28 a round. I'm not sure how MidwayUSA sells it so cheap but $69.99 a case for buckshot is the cheapest I've ever seen.
BlackLS1Pontiac hello, it’s been 100% on everything, unbelievable really considering how cheap. I like your username/picture what year is your Pontiac ? That’s my dream second car. I love the 4th gen Camaro’s and Trans Ams. I’d love to get an SS or WS6. I’ve noticed they’re either cheap, but beat to hell with 250,000 miles or they’re bone stock showroom condition and run $20,000 to $30,000. I’m normally a bike guy for my cheap thrills
Absolute Respect to You and Your Ammo Preference. Although expensive, Federal Flite Control Copper Plated .00 Buck from Improved Cylinder Muzzles give us TWICE the Trustworthy Manstopping Range. Less than 8 Inch Groups at 25 Yards! If beyond indoor range shots interest you this option is valuable.
He nailed it , the length of the stock is too big for most , I knew this from the start , Which is why I chose the Mossberg ATI Scorpion with the adjustable stock , big difference.
I may have commented on this 8 years ago when I watched it too, but I've been revisiting your shotgun series--because I'm finally taking proficiency seriously, and these are some great videos. I chose this one because it's one of the best examples of converting one's personal physical makeup to the techniques you demonstrate. Awesome video! I recommend them all, but this one improved my technique immensely--a shotgun isn't a rifle, don't shoot it like one. :-)
As others have pointed out, your videos are very well made with the information being conveyed in a clear and concise manner. The content of the videos is spot on with what I learned in the 90s from Bill Jeans of Gunsite fame. Thanks for being professional and realistic in your presentation and conveyance of information.
EXTREMELY high quality videos amazing tips and reviews, and your blog is cool too. Congrats, keep up the good work you are going to be big no doubt about it!
Federal 8 Pellet Flite Control reduced recoil Tactical buckshot is the best defensive load available for the 12 gauge shotgun. It’s also quite tam in recoil, allowing rapid and controllable follow up shots, a huge benefit for the defensive shotgun.
A very helpful video, a new shotgun owner here and have been looking for some useful tips for improving the use of it in home defense situations. Your other video on home defense techniques was a great watch too, thank you!
Good point about the length of the shotgun,. This is exactly why I bought the Mossberg 590A1 12ga “Youth Model”. It’s exactly the same as the others besides the stock being shorter. I did it so I could rack the slide without taking it off my shoulder or feeling like I had to reach way out and being in an awkward shooting position for the follow up shots. With your technique of squaring up it makes it even more necessary. Thanks for the tips, these were excellent and your video was to the point and without any fluff.
I’m 5’5 and about 140 lbs. was intimidating at first but proper stance and leaning forward allow me to shoot 3” magnums all day long. Also having an inertia system helps a lot too.
Excelent video, short and full of information. Im saying that because I tried this technique in the field, I couldn’t believe how much control I have and follow up for the next shot. Very less muzzle rise. When I tried the conventional technique the weapon through up and right every time. However as you mention I found it bit difficult with normal stock because the pump handle will be far away so I kind of grab it at the end, but still manageable. Excellent video again
Great points! I was *extremely* fortunate to have proper firearms training at a very early age. (To my Mom's chagrin!) But thankfully, even at an "advanced" age, I have no fear of "kick" and I'm able to enjoy firing even the most abusive firearms. Technique is everything. Thank you for the video!
Worthwhile advice. I was looking first at a hardware solution rather than improving my stance and grip (push/pull). I will check the length of pull on my factory stock as it is probably too long as you suggest. In the video the MagPul stock appears to give you a better drop angle and hand grip to facilitate recoil management.
Lots of good tips. I think the push pull works great for Rem. 870, Mossy 500/590, and similar. It does slow down follow up shots (for me) on my Winchester 1300. With the rotating bolt of the 1300, as soon as the trigger is pulled, the slide can come back. For that shotgun (I’ve used all 3 pumps, the Remington, Mossberg, and Winchester), pulling the slide back snug to your body as you fire can give you incredible cycling speed (with practice). I, personally, haven’t noticed any recoil benefit to the push/pull on the 1300. Then again, I don’t think much about recoil. As long as you can maintain your sight picture and stay accurate on follow up shots. That’s very important. On the rise, in a fight, I doubt you’ll feel it anyway. Just my own personal experience. YMMV
I taught myself all these things from both techniques Travis Haley teaches and just understanding physics! Great video. I would prefer a rifle to my 870 but this is what I've been given by blood
I’m 6.3 and the 13” stock stock showed me too much barrel. Got a magpul stock and had to add 3 of the spacers so I could see the bead better. Spacers are.5” wide. Love it.
Chris: The music in your outro is what the Paul Harrell toobz use. That's a great tribute. I've always wondered what piece that is, and by whom. Could you tell us, please?
I picked up a 12 gauge ATI nomad. Believe its technically a short barrel. Not trying to use it for home defense but definitely gonna check on that push pull method to see if it helps.
Just bought my first gun, it's a Mossberg 590M, and the recoil wasn't as bad as I imagined. These techniques should help me level my shots better though. I'm practicing with slug rounds, whenever I can find them to become more accurate. I recently installed a pistol grip stock, the Knoxx Breachergrip, and the recoil was absolutely horrible. I think I may have to stick with a regular stock or explore other options.
An afermarket stock is almost a must buy in a defensive shotgun. It might cost almost the same price as a used Maverick 88, but it makes wonders on recoil managing. Oh, and also a sling, unless you are so lucky that you'll keep your ground and end the encounter in just one shot without moving.
Excellent video. This helped me at the range. I noticed that he lifts his right shoulder. This enabled me to get the gun butt under my collar bone and into my pectorals and still sight down the barrel without straining my neck. I also found a good selection of shotgun food at their website. :-)
I think fast forward a couple of years and voila! the Raptor grip. I call it a revolution in recoil management and it has already migrated to a non-Shockwave platform. It on a 500 Mossy in 20 gauge and 20"bbl is my next project.
Recoil does suck but if someone is breaking into my house I don’t think I am going to care if I get a bruise on shoulder, it sure will beat a shot in the head. If I gotta pick my poison...
I still feel like recoil control is important. I'm sure felt recoil is effectively neutralized, but muzzle rise is still going to occur regardless of the amount of adrenaline pumping through your chest if you aren't holding the shotgun correctly.
Recoil matters when your training for that home invasion scenario. You still have to learn to aim, quick shoulder your weapon, walk while firing, and keep the gun on target with the 12 gauge recoil. Yea, you won’t feel it in the moment. But you’ll feel the lack of training.
The point of the video is not that recoil causes pain or discomfort, it is that recoil affects your performance in regards to accuracy, controlling muzzle rise, and quick follow up shots on target. I thought he made that clear. Seems to be a lot of people in this comment section that don’t understand recoil affects performance.
The push part of the push pull technique is the key. If you get the timing right, much if not all of the recoil can be buffered in your support arm. Trained with a 60kg kid this weekend and he was shooting #4 32gram effectively from a rice paddy squat once he got it.
I just cut off 1 3/4 inches off my synthetic stock to bring it to 12". Since I use a slip-on pad, I had to modify it a bit to make it all work. Yeah, I like it. Thanks.
On the subject of pull length; I didn't want to spend money on a new stock so I took the polymer stock that came on my Mossy 500 and cut about an inch off using a table saw. (tip: use tape to protect the parts of the stock you don't cut off.) The butt pad went back on with a little lip hanging off the bottom. I could have cut it down but decided it wouldn't inhibit use. I imagine this could be done with a wood stock also. As for stance; when I turn my shoulder square with the target my accuracy goes all to hell no matter how much I practice. But I'm large enough that I don't have issue with recoil. I like shooting the heaviest, fastest slugs I can find.
I’m going to try a muzzle break on my Mossberg 500 for slugs. Most deer shots here in Texas are under 100 yards. It seems to make sense. Don’t know yet.
For some reason gun enthusiasts really like that song that you can hear in the outro... for a second I had to double-check if this s Paul Harrell's channel or not lol
Still, using low recoil 12 Gauge shells definitely helps out a lot! I recommend to people, use low recoil shells for reduced felt recoil, and the fighting stance for reduced muzzle flip. Even with proper technique, I get beat up and burned out if I go through a whole session with full power 12 Gauge shells. I don't have that issue with the low recoiling shells. Easiest ways to find low recoil shells are to either buy 12 Gauge loads that say low recoil or reduced recoil or buy any 2.75 inch loads with a muzzle velocity of under 1200 fps. That being said, I've shot some low recoil 12 Gauge loads with muzzle velocities faster than 1300 fps like the Winchester AA Fast Dove & Clay loads.
Love the videos especially as I'm a first time gun owner! I recently purchased a SXP Defender and have noticed that the stock is long for me. You've suggested a Magpul short or youth stock for more comfort and I agree. But, I've found that their are no options out there for a new 12 gauge SXP Defender. Does anyone (including Lucky Gunner) have any suggestions on what I may not be finding out there? I'm surprised Winchester has not made a compatible option (as they only have them for the 1200/1300's... Thanks!
Good tips & a well made video. I'd add that any shotgun owners or armed professionals looking for tactics might want to research Massad Ayoob and the late Lewis Aweback(check spelling). Aweback taught many new shooters & armed personnel how to deploy/shoot 12ga fighting shotguns.
I'm gonna remove my spacers tomorrow and incorporate the push pull technique aswell in the range. I've used that method for quite some time with handguns but never thought of it with my shotgun. cool.
Thank you very much i have just purchased a 12 gauge shotgun and even though i work Security in a private company i have had trouble managing the shotgun recoil.
I’ve heard that having a shorter range of pull makes the gun more tactical. But honestly, I kind of like the idea of having the shotgun more on my chest. Do you think that having a shorter stock mounted more to my center mass will make me less accurate in shooting trap?
+6236003 Yeah sweet sixteen never really caught on like the 20 gauge did. Like guy above said, 20 Gauge can be very capable too with right loads. I started on a 20 gauge and moved up to 12 as I didn't have issues with the recoil. But for persons recoil sensitive the 20 is can be a great compromise.
+Mike Campbell Nice collection! Sound like me a bit. I don't need a double barrel 12 gauge when I have a Mossy 500 12 gauge.. But I had to have the double barrel anyway after all. It is a firearm! :-)
Try shooting with the butt on the empty section of the upper arm. Just below the deltoid and above the bicept. It creates a complete sweep fulcrum. If you are right handed. It is harder for you to sweep right. This gives you about 20 degrees additional to your sweep to the right. It also gives you about 9 degrees to the left. It gives you a off body mass shock absorber system. It also gives you an automatic push to set the sites. It gives a 1/2 to 3/4 inch forward stroke on your shell extraction strokes. With a pump. It mitigates rapid shoot fatigue.
If you're really adamant about using a 12 gauge pump for home defense, and you dislike recoil, number 7 birdshot works for low recoil and decent protection, but the best 12 gauge load would probably be 00 buckshot mini shell. I personally do not believe shotguns are good for home defense, due to the high recoil, loudness, and major flash (you could use a suppressor to remove most of them, but that's gonna increase the length or the shotgun by 3 - 6 inches. I strongly believe you got three excellent options (all suppressed, of course): a 5.56 carbine, bullpup, or SBR; a .40 S&W carbine, bullpup, SBR, or pistol; or a .45 ACP carbine, bullpup, SBR, or pistol. The best, in my personal opinion, is a suppressed MSAR STG-E4 or a IWI Tavor; both of which could be found for about $1500, which is still a bit pricey, but worth it.
I have an m1 carbine and 32. Everything else has a log barrel. They may be small, but no recoil and fast AND you can keep it on target with high capacity
I put a Remington Shurshot stock on my 870, and having the extra point of support, to me, makes all the difference in the world, not just in control but in felt recoil. What is your opinion about stocks like this?* * The only argument I have heard against them is that it limits the way you can hold the gun (tactical issue?).
It’s funny that the auto play started a Paul Harrell video right after this one finished. I couldn’t tell when this video ended and his video started 😂
Agreed. I hadn't shot a 12 ga in damn near 20 years. Bought a Mossberg 590 retrograde a few days ago and have about a hundred rounds of 00 through it already. It certainly is an aggressive gun, but is painfully enjoyable to shoot.
HI Barry, I'm wondering IF you might have some Recommendation for some Shot Gun Shell's that isn't quite so Strong in Recoil? What my problem is for right now I had Open Heart Surgery and I need some Less Powerful shell's in my 12 ga. for a while.
+Danny Walker Any reduced recoil birdshot would be where I would start for practice ammo. To be honest, though, if I just had my chest cracked open, I would stick to low recoiling rifles for a good while before picking up a shotgun again.
I've only fired a 12 gauge pump action shotgun once, during a wilderness survival course. A local hunting enthusiast went before me and rapid fired 5 rounds on the target so I felt I had to match him. The stance is not much different from firing an assault rifle in combat. I instinctively did everything you said to do and didn't notice the recoil or get off target, even as I blew it off the branch and pumped the last two rounds into the falling paper. Great fun!
It's funny I really taught myself how to shoot and I use his first squared up stance for shooting trap and birds. For rifles I kinda stand at an angle to my target when hunting and put my weight in my front foot
Not sure I like the idea of moving the stock onto the pec and the mention of collarbones and recoil does not sound good. Any MD input on how much force it takes to broken collarbone make?
The tactical types of shotguns aren't even the worst ones. Most of them have a spring in the stock which absorbs some of the recoil. Double barreled hunting shotguns often do not have this feature. Yesterday, I fired rottweil semi magnum hunting shells (4.0 mm shot) from my Browning over and under. The recoil was absolutey ridiculous. Subjectively, it felt even more powerful than the recoil from brenneke slugs.
Push pull is a dangerous one in my opinion I’ve seen a lot of people fuck up the racking of the next shell with this technique. I’m time trials and other high stress training scenarios you might be surprised how often you start the pull in the push pull before you have completely racked your shotgun. Just food for thought
Chris, you have a fantastic channel. Have you ever explored 20 gauge as an alternative? I heard that at 15 yards and in, the efficacy is comparable for home defense. Thoughts? Thanks for all you do!
It's plenty powerful enough, but there tend to be other issues. Good purpose-made 20 gauge defensive ammo is in short supply. The shot spread is often very wide, making it difficult to maintain accountability for every pellet. It's tough to find 20 gauge shotguns set up for defensive use, and even more difficult to find stocks and other compatible accessories. I would like to see all of this change because I think 20 gauge has great potential, but as it stands, it's a real pain in the rear from an ownership perspective. A short stock and low recoil buckshot can make a 12 gauge almost as easy to handle as a 20.
Awesome quality videos! Here in Brazil (high gun control) we are only allowed to have 12ga in 24" barrel. It is very difficult to maneuver inside the house, so I`m thinking on getting a pistol grip. Have you ever used it? Can you share your experience about it? Thanks for the videos!
+André Trevisani If you're referring to a pistol grip with no shoulder stock, I wouldn't recommend it. The lack of shoulder stock makes the gun almost impossible to aim and control. A pistol grip with a shoulder stock is okay and some people like them, but I find them to be awkward to use. Are you allowed to have a handgun? If a 24" barrel was my only option for a shotgun, I would probably just use a handgun instead.
+Lucky Gunner Ammo The regular citizen is allowed to also have .38SPL revolvers and 380ACP handguns (Taurus only) and you can only buy (and keep) 50 ammo per year. Criminals usually use .40 or 9mm handguns. On the other hand, with 12ga we can buy (and keep) 200 cartridges per month (it is considered a hunting gun). But anyway it is VERY difficult to get a buying permission, the majority are denied (with no reason). You would be amazed how things happen here. No surprise that Brazil is one of the most violent countries in the world. Fight to KEEP your freedom, if you lose it you might not have the power to get it back!
I just recently discovered your channel and really enjoy the educational value and quality. I have never heard anything bad about Remington or Mossberg, but what is your take on the Kel-Tec KSG?
+Patrick Simon Thanks, glad you're enjoying the channel! I don't have any first hand experience with the KSG, but like most Kel-Tec products, I think of it as a novelty that's probably pretty fun at the range but a poor choice for a serious self-defense tool. And just so you don't think I'm playing favorites, there's plenty of criticism that could be leveled at Remington and Mossberg too, but I think you're more likely to get a reliable fighting gun from either of them than from Kel-Tec.
A friend of mine that is a skilled shotgunner taught me all the techniques you showed plus one more. Once I had done everything you mentioned then he said "get mad because you are about to fight with a shotgun" and it worked. No issues and fast shooting. Sounds silly but it works.
It's very true. I happen to be used to shooting steel butt plated 30 caliber battle rifles, so I'm not bothered by hard kicking firearms, but when I shoot my 12 gauge 870, I handle and shoot it very aggressively, because, as your friend pointed out, if you ever have to use it for real, it's going to be an ugly day and most likely somebody's gonna die.
Another point taught to me by a police firearms instructor is to train with target/bird shot. You save a lot of cost and recoil, and when the time comes to use it for real, fight or flight will kick in and you won't even notice the harder recoil of the buckshot or slugs.
Would be nice to use bird shot but my range does not allow it. They say the bird shot would bounce back but buckshot and slugs do not. Ah well, moving soon, maybe a range that allows other rounds will be in my new area.
Are we talking an indoor range? Or outdoor? That reasoning sounds like a load of rubbish to me; from my experience, bird shot loses its energy very quickly. Even if it were to bounce back, which is unlikely, it would have so little energy left that it would be effectively harmless.
Would they let you use a target shot, like a #4 for example? It's significantly larger in size than bird shot, but still far less expensive and less recoil than buckshot.
Indoor range, they do have a rubber back stop and I have seen the #410 self defense pistol rounds bounce back so maybe they are telling the truth.
Ahhh, okay, well that might be another matter; I shoot at outdoor ranges almost exclusively, and nothing ever bounces back.. Although I would think setting a minimum distance might address it. I still doubt that bird shot would have much of any energy left after bouncing back off a rubber backstop, but the annoyance factor could be enough to justify it.
I purchased a shotgun for home defense over a year ago and it has been siting in the closet boxed up because I have been terrified of recoil. Never ever shot it. Watching your video has encouraged me to unbox this purchase and go to the range to try to shoot it with buckshot. I commend you on your excellent presentation. I was going to spend the morning researching videos on how to shoot the shotgun. Yours was the first I watched and I am going to stop there and go to the range to see if I can implement your pointers. Keep up the good work
if my 110lb daughter can fire one repeatedly with accuracy im thinking you should be fine lol
Cherubim666999 as a 90 pound teenager, I can say that I can fire about 3-5 rounds before my shoulder starts to hurt
That's the thing it doesn't feel good but you just find how to manage it.
Agent Derpbeef Dislikes tuna casserole as a 40lbs toddler it sends me through the wall but I hold onto it and fire accurately
Darian Ruttenberg nice, your recoil control is amazing. I only dislocate my arm every time I fire lmao
A young guy has clear thoughts and logic. Makes me feel better about the future. Great videos.
The most unpopular and loudest are the ones given the platform. People our age are disgusted with the way the country is, lying when polled out of fear, and some are true ideologues.
@@vashlash6870 not that deep bro
@@osiris654it is literally that deep you close minded brainde3d niqqer
Did your comment age well? Are there still young men that have clear thoughts and logic?
I inherited a shotgun a few days before the Coronavirus shutdown because of one of your videos. I want to thank you for your video training. I am able so sort myself out at the range and protect my family. You have made a big difference in my life. Thanks.
Tip number two is honestly the absolute best tip. In the sheriffs department they taught us to use the trauma pad in the center of the vest as the butt plate to pull the shot gun into. Without it the closer into the center of the chest or where ever you have the most muscle to lock that stock into will help with recoil and keeping the shot gun from climbing. Good stuff.
Best video I've seen yet about how to manage 12 gauge recoil. Thanks very much for making it!
The hardest part about learning to tame the recoil of a shotgun is affording ammunition.
Then start reloading. You can start reloading with makeshift tools under the price of $15. Of course, discluding the reloading components.
@@grits_taste_good415 I'd love to see how to do that with makeshift tools. I've kept a bunch of shells. I guess I could try to start punching out old primers with a regular brass punch or even a nail.
@@VTPSTTU After watching some videos you can get creative and combine some of the cheap items/elements of makeshift setups. Look up "Simple 12 GA Reloading Kit" on RUclips. The thumbnail should have a single shot shotgun, a Cigar box, a rubber mallet, and a black bottle.
@@grits_taste_good415 Thanks for the tip. I want to try that. I had thought about just drilling a hole in a piece of wood to use as a base for removing the spent primers. His device would last longer, but the wood could be replaced if it started to deform too much. His priming setup with the pipe inside the shell looked awkward, but maybe I could make something that would be the equivalent of that antique priming tool. I think I'd rather use shot and powder recipes from a reloading manual and just use commercial wad cups. Not being able to crimp the shell bothers me a little. Have you tried his method on shells that you cycled through a pump-action shotgun? If the shell has the strength to cycle through the action without deforming and getting stuck, this could work very well. I would also consider using paraffin instead of glue to seal the end.
@@VTPSTTU I haven't been able to get out to the range. Not enough time. Otherwise I would've tested my rounds. If you would like to look at a load graph, check out the Hodgdon website. Over 2300 12 gauge loads on there.
I love the affordability aspect of a shotgun. I picked up my 18" Mossberg Maverick 88 for $199. I've been getting S&B Buckshot for $.28 a round. I'm not sure how MidwayUSA sells it so cheap but $69.99 a case for buckshot is the cheapest I've ever seen.
How has your Maverick 88 been treating you? I just picked my first one up
BlackLS1Pontiac hello, it’s been 100% on everything, unbelievable really considering how cheap. I like your username/picture what year is your Pontiac ? That’s my dream second car. I love the 4th gen Camaro’s and Trans Ams. I’d love to get an SS or WS6. I’ve noticed they’re either cheap, but beat to hell with 250,000 miles or they’re bone stock showroom condition and run $20,000 to $30,000. I’m normally a bike guy for my cheap thrills
Absolute Respect to You and Your Ammo Preference. Although expensive, Federal Flite Control Copper Plated .00 Buck from Improved Cylinder Muzzles give us TWICE the Trustworthy Manstopping Range. Less than 8 Inch Groups at 25 Yards! If beyond indoor range shots interest you this option is valuable.
Ew poor
so funny, and sad, reading this in 2022.
He nailed it , the length of the stock is too big for most , I knew this from the start ,
Which is why I chose the Mossberg ATI Scorpion with the adjustable stock , big difference.
I may have commented on this 8 years ago when I watched it too, but I've been revisiting your shotgun series--because I'm finally taking proficiency seriously, and these are some great videos. I chose this one because it's one of the best examples of converting one's personal physical makeup to the techniques you demonstrate. Awesome video! I recommend them all, but this one improved my technique immensely--a shotgun isn't a rifle, don't shoot it like one. :-)
As others have pointed out, your videos are very well made with the information being conveyed in a clear and concise manner. The content of the videos is spot on with what I learned in the 90s from Bill Jeans of Gunsite fame. Thanks for being professional and realistic in your presentation and conveyance of information.
Great video! Wish I had seen it 16 years ago when I was going through academy. I cracked a molar running an 870 in training.
EXTREMELY high quality videos amazing tips and reviews, and your blog is cool too. Congrats, keep up the good work you are going to be big no doubt about it!
+kungfuverde1 Thanks!
Federal 8 Pellet Flite Control reduced recoil Tactical buckshot is the best defensive load available for the 12 gauge shotgun. It’s also quite tam in recoil, allowing rapid and controllable follow up shots, a huge benefit for the defensive shotgun.
Tried out this tip a couple weeks back with my friend's Browning Auto 5 12 Gauge.
It works!! Even with rapid fire!
Thanks Chris!!!
My department just changed all the stocks on our 870 police magnums to a 12 inch length of pull. I like the shorter stock.
A very helpful video, a new shotgun owner here and have been looking for some useful tips for improving the use of it in home defense situations. Your other video on home defense techniques was a great watch too, thank you!
Good point about the length of the shotgun,. This is exactly why I bought the Mossberg 590A1 12ga “Youth Model”. It’s exactly the same as the others besides the stock being shorter. I did it so I could rack the slide without taking it off my shoulder or feeling like I had to reach way out and being in an awkward shooting position for the follow up shots. With your technique of squaring up it makes it even more necessary. Thanks for the tips, these were excellent and your video was to the point and without any fluff.
I’m 5’5 and about 140 lbs. was intimidating at first but proper stance and leaning forward allow me to shoot 3” magnums all day long. Also having an inertia system helps a lot too.
Excelent video, short and full of information. Im saying that because I tried this technique in the field, I couldn’t believe how much control I have and follow up for the next shot. Very less muzzle rise.
When I tried the conventional technique the weapon through up and right every time.
However as you mention I found it bit difficult with normal stock because the pump handle will be far away so I kind of grab it at the end, but still manageable.
Excellent video again
Great points! I was *extremely* fortunate to have proper firearms training at a very early age. (To my Mom's chagrin!) But thankfully, even at an "advanced" age, I have no fear of "kick" and I'm able to enjoy firing even the most abusive firearms.
Technique is everything. Thank you for the video!
Paul’s music at the end. I got excited thinking I was going to see Paul.
Worthwhile advice. I was looking first at a hardware solution rather than improving my stance and grip (push/pull). I will check the length of pull on my factory stock as it is probably too long as you suggest. In the video the MagPul stock appears to give you a better drop angle and hand grip to facilitate recoil management.
The outro to this video made me wanna watch Paul Harrell
Lots of good tips. I think the push pull works great for Rem. 870, Mossy 500/590, and similar. It does slow down follow up shots (for me) on my Winchester 1300. With the rotating bolt of the 1300, as soon as the trigger is pulled, the slide can come back. For that shotgun (I’ve used all 3 pumps, the Remington, Mossberg, and Winchester), pulling the slide back snug to your body as you fire can give you incredible cycling speed (with practice). I, personally, haven’t noticed any recoil benefit to the push/pull on the 1300. Then again, I don’t think much about recoil. As long as you can maintain your sight picture and stay accurate on follow up shots. That’s very important. On the rise, in a fight, I doubt you’ll feel it anyway. Just my own personal experience. YMMV
Great tip about pulling with close hand and pushing on far hand. Also about the stocks being too long and Meng TV of oull
love the way u logically explain everything. ur fan from Pakistan
Without the Magpul SGA stock my 870 would still be on the store shelf....made all the difference in the world....its not an upgrade, its a MUST
a mustgrade
You're a good teacher.
I taught myself all these things from both techniques Travis Haley teaches and just understanding physics! Great video. I would prefer a rifle to my 870 but this is what I've been given by blood
I’m 6.3 and the 13” stock stock showed me too much barrel. Got a magpul stock and had to add 3 of the spacers so I could see the bead better. Spacers are.5” wide. Love it.
Chris: The music in your outro is what the Paul Harrell toobz use. That's a great tribute. I've always wondered what piece that is, and by whom. Could you tell us, please?
You are excellent at these videos. I typically buy my ammo from the Ammo Drop app but will start looking at LG because of your consistently fine work.
Thanks!
Man your shotgun is so nice I just love the look of it. Definitely makes me want a Remington 870.
Looking forward to trying it out. Thanks from Texas.
Push-pull technique works very well
It does, it does.
3:48 *Paul Harrell has entered the chat*
I picked up a 12 gauge ATI nomad. Believe its technically a short barrel. Not trying to use it for home defense but definitely gonna check on that push pull method to see if it helps.
Just bought my first gun, it's a Mossberg 590M, and the recoil wasn't as bad as I imagined. These techniques should help me level my shots better though. I'm practicing with slug rounds, whenever I can find them to become more accurate. I recently installed a pistol grip stock, the Knoxx Breachergrip, and the recoil was absolutely horrible. I think I may have to stick with a regular stock or explore other options.
An afermarket stock is almost a must buy in a defensive shotgun. It might cost almost the same price as a used Maverick 88, but it makes wonders on recoil managing. Oh, and also a sling, unless you are so lucky that you'll keep your ground and end the encounter in just one shot without moving.
Mag pul is adjustable, I'm s small guy so I took 4 out of the 5 spacer out. But after 50 or so rounds of 00 buck I had to take a break.
Excellent video. This helped me at the range. I noticed that he lifts his right shoulder. This enabled me to get the gun butt under my collar bone and into my pectorals and still sight down the barrel without straining my neck. I also found a good selection of shotgun food at their website. :-)
quick, clear, and effective... always the best videos!
At the end I thought a Paul Harrel video is about to start
Watched a few of these now, this fella is everso good.
Please keep this excellent series of videos coming!
Watched four videos...you gained a subscriber. Great videos. Great instruction.
Nice segue at the end to the Paul Harrell video I’m watching next.
I think fast forward a couple of years and voila! the Raptor grip. I call it a revolution in recoil management and it has already migrated to a non-Shockwave platform. It on a 500 Mossy in 20 gauge and 20"bbl is my next project.
Recoil does suck but if someone is breaking into my house I don’t think I am going to care if I get a bruise on shoulder, it sure will beat a shot in the head. If I gotta pick my poison...
Padme Raven
In a real fight, you won’t feel the recoil. Worrying about recoil is for target practice and competition.
I still feel like recoil control is important. I'm sure felt recoil is effectively neutralized, but muzzle rise is still going to occur regardless of the amount of adrenaline pumping through your chest if you aren't holding the shotgun correctly.
Recoil matters when your training for that home invasion scenario. You still have to learn to aim, quick shoulder your weapon, walk while firing, and keep the gun on target with the 12 gauge recoil. Yea, you won’t feel it in the moment. But you’ll feel the lack of training.
The point of the video is not that recoil causes pain or discomfort, it is that recoil affects your performance in regards to accuracy, controlling muzzle rise, and quick follow up shots on target.
I thought he made that clear.
Seems to be a lot of people in this comment section that don’t understand recoil affects performance.
@@araknidude it is, recoil control still would come into play even with an adrenaline rush.
The push part of the push pull technique is the key. If you get the timing right, much if not all of the recoil can be buffered in your support arm. Trained with a 60kg kid this weekend and he was shooting #4 32gram effectively from a rice paddy squat once he got it.
I just cut off 1 3/4 inches off my synthetic stock to bring it to 12". Since I use a slip-on pad, I had to modify it a bit to make it all work. Yeah, I like it. Thanks.
On the subject of pull length; I didn't want to spend money on a new stock so I took the polymer stock that came on my Mossy 500 and cut about an inch off using a table saw. (tip: use tape to protect the parts of the stock you don't cut off.) The butt pad went back on with a little lip hanging off the bottom. I could have cut it down but decided it wouldn't inhibit use. I imagine this could be done with a wood stock also. As for stance; when I turn my shoulder square with the target my accuracy goes all to hell no matter how much I practice. But I'm large enough that I don't have issue with recoil. I like shooting the heaviest, fastest slugs I can find.
I’m going to try a muzzle break on my Mossberg 500 for slugs. Most deer shots here in Texas are under 100 yards. It seems to make sense. Don’t know yet.
For some reason gun enthusiasts really like that song that you can hear in the outro... for a second I had to double-check if this s Paul Harrell's channel or not lol
Still, using low recoil 12 Gauge shells definitely helps out a lot!
I recommend to people, use low recoil shells for reduced felt recoil, and the fighting stance for reduced muzzle flip.
Even with proper technique, I get beat up and burned out if I go through a whole session with full power 12 Gauge shells. I don't have that issue with the low recoiling shells.
Easiest ways to find low recoil shells are to either buy 12 Gauge loads that say low recoil or reduced recoil or buy any 2.75 inch loads with a muzzle velocity of under 1200 fps. That being said, I've shot some low recoil 12 Gauge loads with muzzle velocities faster than 1300 fps like the Winchester AA Fast Dove & Clay loads.
Love the videos especially as I'm a first time gun owner! I recently purchased a SXP Defender and have noticed that the stock is long for me. You've suggested a Magpul short or youth stock for more comfort and I agree. But, I've found that their are no options out there for a new 12 gauge SXP Defender.
Does anyone (including Lucky Gunner) have any suggestions on what I may not be finding out there? I'm surprised Winchester has not made a compatible option (as they only have them for the 1200/1300's... Thanks!
The hacksaw is our friend.
Good tips & a well made video. I'd add that any shotgun owners or armed professionals looking for tactics might want to research Massad Ayoob and the late Lewis Aweback(check spelling). Aweback taught many new shooters & armed personnel how to deploy/shoot 12ga fighting shotguns.
+DL Lambert Yeah, Louis Awerbuck was one of the greats, and Mas is a great resource, too.
+Lucky Gunner Ammo hope your day has been a good one Sir! Hay what do I go under to find your video on hardware solution for managing shotgun recoil ?
I'm gonna remove my spacers tomorrow and incorporate the push pull technique aswell in the range. I've used that method for quite some time with handguns but never thought of it with my shotgun. cool.
+ray hanes Don't forget to do it opposite of the handgun technique, though (pull w/ strong hand, push w/ support hand. Pistol is the reverse)
Thank you very much i have just purchased a 12 gauge shotgun and even though i work Security in a private company i have had trouble managing the shotgun recoil.
Also depends on type of ammo type of shotgun type of action and length of barrel
Port the barrel, throw a recoil pad on, and get some kind of recoil reduction device. They help. A lot.
I’ve heard that having a shorter range of pull makes the gun more tactical. But honestly, I kind of like the idea of having the shotgun more on my chest. Do you think that having a shorter stock mounted more to my center mass will make me less accurate in shooting trap?
Thanks for the tips. Now I see what I'm doing wrong and how to improve my technique. A+ video.
Another solution if you're still being punished and can't handle the 12 gauge with these techniques is to drop down to a 20 gauge.
+6236003
Yeah sweet sixteen never really caught on like the 20 gauge did. Like guy above said, 20 Gauge can be very capable too with right loads. I started on a 20 gauge and moved up to 12 as I didn't have issues with the recoil. But for persons recoil sensitive the 20 is can be a great compromise.
+6236003
Screw it..
8 Gauge! LoL
Yeah unfortunately if you want to easily find ammo you've got to stick to the more popular calibers.
+Mike Campbell
Nice collection!
Sound like me a bit. I don't need a double barrel 12 gauge when I have a Mossy 500 12 gauge.. But I had to have the double barrel anyway after all. It is a firearm! :-)
+Mike Campbell
Infact the more I watch Lucky Gunner and see Chris' short barrel Remington 870 the more I find myself needing that too!
plus double barrels are just fun to shoot
Try shooting with the butt on the empty section of the upper arm. Just below the deltoid and above the bicept. It creates a complete sweep fulcrum. If you are right handed. It is harder for you to sweep right. This gives you about 20 degrees additional to your sweep to the right. It also gives you about 9 degrees to the left.
It gives you a off body mass shock absorber system.
It also gives you an automatic push to set the sites. It gives a 1/2 to 3/4 inch forward stroke on your shell extraction strokes. With a pump. It mitigates rapid shoot fatigue.
Your content is always so informative yet entertaining 🔥
What are those thing that look like large flat head screws on the side of your 870 receiver? Did they take the place of the pins?
I was wondering the same thing, I've never seen that before
Screws replace the lockwork pins when mounting a sidesaddle ammo plate.
@@yrocnaeb Screws replace the lockwork pins when mounting a sidesaddle ammo plate.
If you're really adamant about using a 12 gauge pump for home defense, and you dislike recoil, number 7 birdshot works for low recoil and decent protection, but the best 12 gauge load would probably be 00 buckshot mini shell. I personally do not believe shotguns are good for home defense, due to the high recoil, loudness, and major flash (you could use a suppressor to remove most of them, but that's gonna increase the length or the shotgun by 3 - 6 inches. I strongly believe you got three excellent options (all suppressed, of course): a 5.56 carbine, bullpup, or SBR; a .40 S&W carbine, bullpup, SBR, or pistol; or a .45 ACP carbine, bullpup, SBR, or pistol. The best, in my personal opinion, is a suppressed MSAR STG-E4 or a IWI Tavor; both of which could be found for about $1500, which is still a bit pricey, but worth it.
Congratulations, you're an armchair commando
Whatca mean? Contrary to what the democrats say, a shotgun is harder to control than an AR. That and bullpups are designed for CQB.
All Games Amen to this. that's my setup...I have a tavor and p226 in .40
All Games wait people actually think that an AR has more kick than a shotgun. People really need to be educated on these types of things
I have an m1 carbine and 32. Everything else has a log barrel. They may be small, but no recoil and fast AND you can keep it on target with high capacity
I put a Remington Shurshot stock on my 870, and having the extra point of support, to me, makes all the difference in the world, not just in control but in felt recoil. What is your opinion about stocks like this?*
* The only argument I have heard against them is that it limits the way you can hold the gun (tactical issue?).
Another quality video. Thanks.
It’s funny that the auto play started a Paul Harrell video right after this one finished. I couldn’t tell when this video ended and his video started 😂
Great video & useful tips!
Thanks Chris!
Most youth models are actually perfect for a modern shooting stance. The stocks are normally way too long on regular models.
In personal experience, is just a matter of practice, get to know your gun and rounds and you'll be alright, the more you shoot the better
Agreed. I hadn't shot a 12 ga in damn near 20 years. Bought a Mossberg 590 retrograde a few days ago and have about a hundred rounds of 00 through it already. It certainly is an aggressive gun, but is painfully enjoyable to shoot.
This all seems like great advice. I wonder if it would work the same for ladies?
Good job Chris thank you for the information
HI Barry, I'm wondering IF you might have some Recommendation for some Shot Gun Shell's that isn't quite so Strong in Recoil? What my problem is for right now I had Open Heart Surgery and I need some Less Powerful shell's in my 12 ga. for a while.
+Danny Walker Who is Barry?
Sorry I got your name Wrong, Chris....wasn't Intentional.
+Danny Walker Any reduced recoil birdshot would be where I would start for practice ammo. To be honest, though, if I just had my chest cracked open, I would stick to low recoiling rifles for a good while before picking up a shotgun again.
Excellent video as always.
Love your videos.
You attention to detail is great.
I subbed and hit the bell icon after I saw a video and a half. I hit like on all of them. Keep up the roll
Thanks!
I agree! Very solid advice
Top notch content man! Much respect! 👍
I've only fired a 12 gauge pump action shotgun once, during a wilderness survival course. A local hunting enthusiast went before me and rapid fired 5 rounds on the target so I felt I had to match him. The stance is not much different from firing an assault rifle in combat. I instinctively did everything you said to do and didn't notice the recoil or get off target, even as I blew it off the branch and pumped the last two rounds into the falling paper. Great fun!
Cool story bro
What should be the stance and grip when shooting a Mossberg shockwave, Emperor duke 111 for example?
Great job. Really like your videos as i'm considering buying a shotgun for home defense.
Extremely well done videos.....in every regard.
What about using a COMPENSATOR at the end of the barrel to control muzzle rise?
It's funny I really taught myself how to shoot and I use his first squared up stance for shooting trap and birds. For rifles I kinda stand at an angle to my target when hunting and put my weight in my front foot
Lucky Gunner - What are those silver anti-walk screws on the 870. I see Miculek uses them too. I can't find them anywhere.
Greatly appreciated!!!! I just bought my first 590 mossberg. Presently I have those bruises on my shoulder LOL
THANKS
Not sure I like the idea of moving the stock onto the pec and the mention of collarbones and recoil does not sound good. Any MD input on how much force it takes to broken collarbone make?
*Below* the collar bone. If you fire with the stock on your collar bone, you will not do it a second time.
The tactical types of shotguns aren't even the worst ones. Most of them have a spring in the stock which absorbs some of the recoil. Double barreled hunting shotguns often do not have this feature. Yesterday, I fired rottweil semi magnum hunting shells (4.0 mm shot) from my Browning over and under. The recoil was absolutey ridiculous. Subjectively, it felt even more powerful than the recoil from brenneke slugs.
Push pull is a dangerous one in my opinion I’ve seen a lot of people fuck up the racking of the next shell with this technique. I’m time trials and other high stress training scenarios you might be surprised how often you start the pull in the push pull before you have completely racked your shotgun. Just food for thought
Chris, you have a fantastic channel. Have you ever explored 20 gauge as an alternative? I heard that at 15 yards and in, the efficacy is comparable for home defense. Thoughts? Thanks for all you do!
It's plenty powerful enough, but there tend to be other issues. Good purpose-made 20 gauge defensive ammo is in short supply. The shot spread is often very wide, making it difficult to maintain accountability for every pellet. It's tough to find 20 gauge shotguns set up for defensive use, and even more difficult to find stocks and other compatible accessories. I would like to see all of this change because I think 20 gauge has great potential, but as it stands, it's a real pain in the rear from an ownership perspective. A short stock and low recoil buckshot can make a 12 gauge almost as easy to handle as a 20.
You do a great job on your channel. Thanks.
Good advice. With shotguns you just gotta man handle it. It hurt for about 2 months but now I can slam fire slugs all day and be fine
Awesome quality videos! Here in Brazil (high gun control) we are only allowed to have 12ga in 24" barrel. It is very difficult to maneuver inside the house, so I`m thinking on getting a pistol grip. Have you ever used it? Can you share your experience about it? Thanks for the videos!
+André Trevisani If you're referring to a pistol grip with no shoulder stock, I wouldn't recommend it. The lack of shoulder stock makes the gun almost impossible to aim and control. A pistol grip with a shoulder stock is okay and some people like them, but I find them to be awkward to use. Are you allowed to have a handgun? If a 24" barrel was my only option for a shotgun, I would probably just use a handgun instead.
+Lucky Gunner Ammo The regular citizen is allowed to also have .38SPL revolvers and 380ACP handguns (Taurus only) and you can only buy (and keep) 50 ammo per year. Criminals usually use .40 or 9mm handguns. On the other hand, with 12ga we can buy (and keep) 200 cartridges per month (it is considered a hunting gun). But anyway it is VERY difficult to get a buying permission, the majority are denied (with no reason). You would be amazed how things happen here. No surprise that Brazil is one of the most violent countries in the world. Fight to KEEP your freedom, if you lose it you might not have the power to get it back!
I just recently discovered your channel and really enjoy the educational value and quality. I have never heard anything bad about Remington or Mossberg, but what is your take on the Kel-Tec KSG?
+Patrick Simon Thanks, glad you're enjoying the channel! I don't have any first hand experience with the KSG, but like most Kel-Tec products, I think of it as a novelty that's probably pretty fun at the range but a poor choice for a serious self-defense tool. And just so you don't think I'm playing favorites, there's plenty of criticism that could be leveled at Remington and Mossberg too, but I think you're more likely to get a reliable fighting gun from either of them than from Kel-Tec.
Yeah, I was kinda reluctant to aim down the sights of a real shotgun when I'm not lying down (the way I did it in camp 10 years ago)