Seeking the Truth About Polygamy, Part 1 with Michelle Stone
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- Опубликовано: 26 июл 2024
- Meghan is joined by Michelle Stone of the RUclips Channel 132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy in this two-part discussion. Topics in this part include:
- Identifying False Beliefs and Traditions
- Scriptural Teachings on Polygamy
- Asking the Lord to Tell You the Truth
- Healing the Pain and Iniquity of our Ancestors
- Who or What are you Converted To?
Michelle Brady Stone was raised in a happy Mormon family in Salt Lake City. Her father was the Bishop and her mother wrote children’s music like, “I Lived in Heaven,” “When I Grow Up I Want to be a Mother” and “I’m a Mormon.” She attended BYU on full scholarship where she had to make the painful choice between the basketball court and the stage. She majored in Music, Dance, Theater, but always hated that she couldn’t also major in English, Physics and Psychology. She and her husband, Shane, are the parents of 13 children (11 living), (Yes, all ours. No, not a blended family. Yes, one set of twins), and are many years into raising their own happy Mormon-ish family.
In addition to her family, her RUclips channel, 132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy , takes most of her time. Michelle spends any leftover time in her garden, and, on occasion, sleeping.
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I listened to this as someone who has grown up with positive stories of polygamy, who believed that it would be a part of the hereafter. Needless to say the information presented was difficult to hear. I took it to the Lord and I listened. I was shocked to feel such peace to learn and know that plural marriage is not and never was of God. This truth has distilled so much light, filled a hole in my soul which I didn’t know I had. I know better who my Heavenly Parents are, how They feel about their daughters 💕. Now I can’t unsee this truth. It seems that everything testifies that monogamy is the mode of heaven from the creation, the fall, Noah’s Ark… this truth has been so lightening, so freeing. Please be open to pondering and asking with a sincere heart.
My story is similar to yours! Once I heard the words "Joseph Smith was monogamous" a burden was lifted!
I can relate that I can't unsee the truth about the false tradition of polygamy.
Thank you so much for doing this interview. It is time for us to openly wrestle with the doctrine of many wives and concubines. If it is of Christ, it will be able to withstand the scrutiny and become more beautiful the closer we inspect it. If it is not of Christ, it will wither in the Light. Truly, thank you both for your beautiful desire for truth and willingness to shed false traditions.
I’m so thankful for your contribution to this work as well, Gwendolyn. I love your work! 🩷
@@briarhill4950 That is very kind, thank you! 💜 I am so heartened by how many people have taken their questions and desire for further light and truth to God. That is Who gets credit for my efforts for sure!
@@gwendolynwyne 🩷
I love Michelle Stone! Her podcast has profoundly helped heal my heart about polygamy and subsequently my relationship with God. Once I understood that He would never instigate this harm on his daughters I was able to connect more deeply to HF.
Thank you for having her on and spreading awareness for her channel. I have now found your channel now and am excited to see what it is about.
That was my exact experience as well. I just never felt God loved his daughters as much as his sons so why bother with a relationship? All those speaking out are songs to the aching soul.
Why would it be that traumatizing. It's better and more respectful than today's porn and hookup culture.
@@rocksteadyras is it though? It’s fornication and infidelity. Sounds pretty shit to me.
@@rocksteadyrasare you sure.. it was a hook up culture for the men... they could even take other men's wives if they held a higher priesthood... you should really look into real church history. It's kinda hard hitting stuff.
I love this girl. She's refreshing, brave and does not have a grudge or axe I grind. On her podcast, she digs in and accesses source materials. She has a message worth hearing.
Michelle now has 21.5K followers. She has shared such amazing and informative information. I’m so grateful people are finding her! I have learned SO much! I started with her from the beginning. I’m so grateful for her and all that she studies and shares.
I had an interview with a member of my bishopric a few weeks ago to renew my temple recommend, and I was very honest about my thoughts on polygamy and Joseph Smith not practicing it, etc. I was a bit surprised when he told me he didn't believe that Joseph Smith practised or taught polygamy either. He said that Joseph Smith was accused of many things. He then compared the polygamy accusations to the fraudulent "Salamander letter" in the 80's and simply said: "The truth will come out".
Sounds like your bishop is experiencing his own apostasy on a severe level!
I can see why you might say that. I sense that you deeply care about your brother's and sisters in the gospel. I also care deeply.
My personal journey in learning about polygamy has been very painful. As I've prayed and studied to find the truth about how God feels about his daughters--especially with regards to the "doctrine of many wives and concubines", my testimony has been pruned and simplified and I feel as though I've landed on the doctrine of Christ: faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, and baptism.
I don't believe that polygamy fits into the doctrine of Christ. And in the defense of myself and my bishopric, I don't think it's fair to judge any sincere seeker as one who is on the road to apostasy simply because they are asking difficult questions or because they've found historical documents that don't support the Church's official narrative.
That's my perspective, anyway. Thanks for engaging. I sincerely wish you all the best in your efforts to care for those who you love. God bless.
@@michelmehanna5655 Thanks for engaging. You definitely put thought and time into your response. Thank you.
We are probably coming from different places and so I don't expect we'll see things exactly the same way, but I'd like to offer you some thoughts to consider.
The source you cited (October 1843), is not the original quote from Joseph Smith; rather, it's a revised version. (I didn't know this until recently) It originally read: "Thursday October 5. … eve at home walked up and down st. with scribe. and gave instruction to try those who were preaching teaching or the doctrine of plurality of wives. on this Law. Joseph forbids it. and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife."
Under the direction of Brigham Young this quote was revised, deleting about 10 words, and adding 45 words. It now reads: "Evening at home, and walked up and down the streets with my scribe. Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives; on this on this law for according to the law I hold the keys of this power in the last days, for there is never but one on Earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred-and I have constantly said Joseph forbids it and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife at a time unless the Lord directs otherwise." You can actually see the edits made to this entry on the Joseph Smith papers website.
From my perspective, these changes were significant, flipping the whole meaning of the author's original intent.
As for Jacob's sermon (chapters 1-3), it is clear that God is commanding his people to have one wife and no concubines. He calls having more than one wife "whoredoms", "abominations", and "crimes". When looking at verse 30, I've had to ask myself, is God saying that sometimes in order to raise up seed, He'll command His people to commit whoredoms, abominations and crimes? That logic didn't make sense to me. Rather, in order to raise up a righteous seed, it seems He's commanding his people to depart from polygamy. Verses 25 and 26 are similar to verse 30: "Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old". He has led them out of Jerusalem because of the polygamy that was being practised in that wicked city. He's commanding his men to be true to their one wife, "otherwise" they shall hearken to "these things". . Or in other words: "the things (the grosser crimes) which were written concerning David and Solomon" (verse 23). Jacob 3 also helps us understand how polygamy affects the children or the seed, verse 10: "Wherefore, ye shall remember your children, how that ye have grieved their hearts because of the example that ye have set before them; and also, remember that ye may, because of your filthiness, bring your children unto destruction, and their sins be heaped upon your heads at the last day."
I discovered a beautiful pattern while studying "Zion" and "righteous seed". Every time God wants to "raise up seed" he does it monogamously: Adam and Eve, Noah and his wife, Lehi and Sariah. And every time the people in the book of Mormon are the most zion-like, they are monogamous: King Benjamin's people, Alma's people who repented and left the wicked and polygamous King Noah; and, finally, the people to whom Christ visited. The Book of Mormon record demonstrates this in Mosiah 2:5 "And it came to pass that when they came up to the temple, they pitched their tents round about, every man according to his family, consisting of his *wife, and his sons, and his daughters, and their sons, and their daughters, from the eldest down to the youngest, every family being separate one from another". 3 Nephi 19:1 "And now it came to pass that when Jesus had ascended into heaven, the multitude did disperse, and every man did take his *wife and his children and did return to his own home." I actually wonder if monogamy was one of the 'prerequisites' to receiving, accepting and living Zion-like teachings.
In contrast, every time they are polygamous, they are lifted up in pride. Examples of this are: The Nephites whom Jacob taught, King Noah, and Riplakish.
Birth rates in polygamy are also interesting to consider. If you look at the birth rates among our early Mormon mothers, those who were married polygamously had fewer children than their monogamously married counterparts. Brigham Young (for instance) had 56 wives, who bore 57 children (1child/woman). Heber C Kimball had 37 wives who bore 65 children (less than 2 children/woman). Other higher averages show about 3.5 children born/woman in polygamous households. In contrast , the birth rate in the US at this time period was about 5 children per woman on average.
As for section 132, there are some interesting problems...but I'll stop there. I've said enough now :)
Thanks again for your thought-work.
@@michelmehanna5655Not long ago, I believed very similarly as you. For many years I read and listened to a lot of things in trying to understand the "doctrine of many wives and concubines". I essentially believed the same as you, and at times I defended it. So I can sincerely say that I appreciate where you are coming from. I also sincerely appreciate that you care about the truth. Thank you for being an example of thinking deeply about important topics.
In the last 2-3 years, and through a series of personal experiences regarding this topic on polygamy, I was absolutely *compelled* to be humble and was led to study seriously what Joseph Smith taught. I'm not talking about secondary, non-contemporaneous sources or church manuals (although they can sometimes be useful), I'm talking about diving into the actual journals, minutes of meetings, letters, etc. In the process, I have found that Joseph Smith and Hyrum actually preached against all forms of polygamy. The October 5th, 1843 source you cited earlier, is not an original source. It is a revised, edited source that completely changed the meaning of what Joseph Smith actually said.
In his October 5, 1843 journal, the original words read this and it contains nothing about keys of the plurality of wives: "eve at home walked up and down st. with scribe. and gave instruction to try those who were preaching teaching or the doctrine of plurality of wives. on this Law. Joseph forbids it. and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife"
I too, believe that Joseph was a prophet, that he restored the gospel and he translated the Book of Mormon. I also believe it's incredibly important to look at the primary, contemporaneous documents when quoting Joseph Smith. I believe him when he said he had one wife. I believe him when he called polygamy a crime. I believe he was an honest chosen servant of God who was not secretly practicing polygamy. Most importantly, I believe in a loving God who guards and cherishes his daughters and their "tender, chaste and delicate feelings" which are "pleasing unto God" Jacob 2:7. I believe in an unchanging God who worketh in light and not in darkness.
Please know I am sincere, and that this message is intended to be shared with genuine kindness.
Thank you for the conversation :) Wishing you all the best.
I appreciate all of those who have been willing to engage in a broader discussion, and who have done so tactfully and sincerely. I know this topic is challenging, especially considering many church members are the direct descendants of polygamous relationships, and how much of our church organization has been historically centered on this and related practices. It hits close to home. It requires the careful evaluation of our "triangles" or paradigms, which we have inherited, incorporated into our lives, and upheld, even with passionate apologetics. I respect the right of each individual to disagree with Michelle, and to form their own opinions. I do not pretend to have all the answers and I don't imagine to know the full truth on this issue yet, although it has been a matter of consistent study, prayer, and meditation. I believe Michelle would say the same. What I can say is there is more to this issue, Church history, and the evolution of truths within the Church than what we tend to explore. Those who have grown up in the Church have been raised with a certain narrative, as is unavoidable in any sub-sect of human development. And that narrative contains both truth and untruth, as is found in all places. To discuss the specific issues of polygamy as a command from God, Joseph Smith's supposed polygamy, the historicity of the resources we rely on, the various motives of the many, many parties involved, etc. would require 132+ episodes. For that reason, I invite those who are open to doing so to explore Michelle's podcast episodes. I find her approach to be refreshing, honest, insightful, and balanced, even and especially as she incorporates the same resources others use to make the opposite argument. She approached the topic with the opposite opinion, but in being open to God's direction regardless of its price, was able to learn incredible things. We have the same opportunity, if we are but willing to shatter our triangles, explore new avenues to truth, even more direct ones than are typically allowed for in secular society, and take the Holy Ghost as our guide. What I can declare is that we each have the right to learn truth directly from God. But we won't do so if we aren't asking questions, or if our spiritual eyes are closed. My invitation with this, and every, podcast episode, is to allow the Spirit to direct each individual with whatever they need to be seeking, learning, asking, practicing, and embodying, in order for them to move forward in the path of justification, sanctification, and ultimately coming unto God in the most literal terms. If no answer comes from certain episodes, that's ok! But it is the purpose behind this and every conversation I have. I hope this makes sense, and above all I hope you and all others can know of the genuine LOVE I feel for my brothers and sisters, and most especially my love for God, for light, and for truth. If anything I say or do fails to convey that, it is on me. Thank you!
Thank you so much for having this conversation and choosing such a knowledgeable and sincere guest.
I would ask this question to those who do not think that you should have done this podcast; Are we going to just pay lip service to the idea of shattering triangles?
If we sincerely believe in pursuing truth, we must put everything we believe on the alter and wrestle with it, it must be purified in the furnace of opposition. God will confirm truth and teach us more through the journey and the false traditions and misunderstandings will be burned off as dross.
Thank you Meghan! I love Michelle and her insight and study. It’s time for the members of this church to wake up and stand up. We preach that we love truth and then we shut people down who reveal it in a way that bumps up against our limiting beliefs. The only way to draw closer to our Heavenly Father (who is a God of truth) is to be open to all of the good, the bad and the ugly. I vote that you have her on again for another part 2!!!!
Yes! Please post part 2!! Maybe in a protected way that only those who are ready for this triangle to be shattered can come across it!!
Pres Kimball himself said to avoid the false doctrine of early prophets and leaders and he was a real prophet 😇.
To call Joseph a polygamist is to call him a liar. I am so grateful for Michelle’s efforts in clearing up the roots of polygamy. There are so many sources that are out in the open that one can look up and back up what she’s saying.
I recently found sources from BYU where Helen Mar Kimball (who claimed to be Joseph’s wife) was involved in satanic rituals to see an angel and Bishop Whitney told them that it would have worked had they killed one of the 3 babies that became possessed during the ritual. Then two of the babies never recovered physically, so one of the mothers decided to kill her baby in hopes that the other baby (from a sister wife) would live. Yet that baby died as well. And we take these women’s word that Joseph practiced polygamy over Joseph denying it and fighting against it until his death.
Also that God is a liar.
Would you share the Helen Mar Kimball sources you found so we can check it out before it "disappears" from the records?
@@littleredhen3218
"her house (Vilate Kimball) was the place appointed by the voice of the Spirit to hold the fast meeting, and the great blessing to be gained thereby was the administration of an angel or angels. I had a promise that day that I should be healed by the power of God. Up to this time I had remained feeble and unable to sit up but little, or to walk to a neighbor’s without having to lie down, and this I desired more than anything else of a temporal nature. In obedience to that spirit Mother Whitney, her daughter, Sarah Ann, Sisters Louisa Pitkin, Presendia Buel, Sarah Lawrence, Frances Swan, Harriet Sanders, Persis Young and two or three others who were there, all being my father’s wives but Sister Persis and Mother Whitney, met the next morning without eating or drinking. But no sooner had we begun to offer up our united prayers than the devil commenced his operations on the three little ones that were there, mother’s Brigham and her little babe, and Sarah Ann’s son, who was born on the journey from Nauvoo. It would be one and then the other. The eldest was playing in the room adjoining, and without any known cause, he commenced screaming; floundering and going into the most frightful contortions, which obliged us to stop and administer to him and rebuke that spirit in the name of Jesus, when the child quieted down and went to sleep. We had no sooner begun again to seek in prayer for the promised blessing, than we were again interrupted by my mother’s babe screaming, and it had lain sleeping peacefully till then. He was operated upon in a similar manner to the other, so we were under the necessity of again stopping to administer to him, when he was immediately relieved, and went to sleep. But just as soon as we commenced again to struggle for the blessing that had been promised, the third one was seized, and this continued through the day, and every time the evil spirits were rebuked by the power of the priesthood, which had been conferred upon us in the house of God in connection with our husbands. This only stimulated us to persevere, and that wrestle continued between the two powers, each seeking the supremacy, till finally we became satisfied that we would have to part with one of those little ones before we could obtain the coveted blessing. Therefore, when the day was nearly spent, and we had witnessed the workings of the two powers-one just in proportion to the other-the mothers concluded to call Bishop Whitney and relate this day’s experience and leave the decision with him, whether or not we had been directed by the right spirit. We broke our fast, and the bishop came about dusk and spent the best portion of the night in answering questions and explaining doctrines and things which the sisters had never before understood. He had previously expressed some fears that the sisters might be out of the way, seeing them meet together so often, but he changed his mind, for he was filled with the Holy Spirit the moment he entered the house. His mind was clear and like a fountain, and we only had to ask and receive, for our faith was such that it would take no denial. He told us that we were nearer obtaining what we had sought for, and the Lord was nearer than we had any idea of, and that our desires would have been realized had we given up one of those children. He said it was only through similar struggles that any great manifestations from on high were ever obtained. There were things that he uttered that night that he did not know of himself, but by the Spirit some choice truths were revealed through him, and they were of a most consoling nature to women, particularly to those who were making a willing sacrifice in helping their husbands to accomplish the great and mighty purposes which the Lord had commanded them to do, and they were promised that eventually all that were true and faithful would enjoy all that their hearts desired, or could conceive of; their trials and sufferings here would be swallowed up in the glory they had attained to through obedience, and they would be enthroned and reign as queens in the presence of God, eternities without end." - Women’s Exponent, vol. 14, no. 14, 15 December 1885, p. 105-6.
"her house (Vilate Kimball) was the place appointed by the voice of the Spirit to hold the fast meeting, and the great blessing to be gained thereby was the administration of an angel or angels. I had a promise that day that I should be healed by the power of God. Up to this time I had remained feeble and unable to sit up but little, or to walk to a neighbor’s without having to lie down, and this I desired more than anything else of a temporal nature. In obedience to that spirit Mother Whitney, her daughter, Sarah Ann, Sisters Louisa Pitkin, Presendia Buel, Sarah Lawrence, Frances Swan, Harriet Sanders, Persis Young and two or three others who were there, all being my father’s wives but Sister Persis and Mother Whitney, met the next morning without eating or drinking. But no sooner had we begun to offer up our united prayers than the devil commenced his operations on the three little ones that were there, mother’s Brigham and her little babe, and Sarah Ann’s son, who was born on the journey from Nauvoo. It would be one and then the other. The eldest was playing in the room adjoining, and without any known cause, he commenced screaming; floundering and going into the most frightful contortions, which obliged us to stop and administer to him and rebuke that spirit in the name of Jesus, when the child quieted down and went to sleep. We had no sooner begun again to seek in prayer for the promised blessing, than we were again interrupted by my mother’s babe screaming, and it had lain sleeping peacefully till then. He was operated upon in a similar manner to the other, so we were under the necessity of again stopping to administer to him, when he was immediately relieved, and went to sleep. But just as soon as we commenced again to struggle for the blessing that had been promised, the third one was seized, and this continued through the day, and every time the evil spirits were rebuked by the power of the priesthood, which had been conferred upon us in the house of God in connection with our husbands. This only stimulated us to persevere, and that wrestle continued between the two powers, each seeking the supremacy, till finally we became satisfied that we would have to part with one of those little ones before we could obtain the coveted blessing. Therefore, when the day was nearly spent, and we had witnessed the workings of the two powers-one just in proportion to the other-the mothers concluded to call Bishop Whitney and relate this day’s experience and leave the decision with him, whether or not we had been directed by the right spirit. We broke our fast, and the bishop came about dusk and spent the best portion of the night in answering questions and explaining doctrines and things which the sisters had never before understood. He had previously expressed some fears that the sisters might be out of the way, seeing them meet together so often, but he changed his mind, for he was filled with the Holy Spirit the moment he entered the house. His mind was clear and like a fountain, and we only had to ask and receive, for our faith was such that it would take no denial. He told us that we were nearer obtaining what we had sought for, and the Lord was nearer than we had any idea of, and that our desires would have been realized had we given up one of those children. He said it was only through similar struggles that any great manifestations from on high were ever obtained. There were things that he uttered that night that he did not know of himself, but by the Spirit some choice truths were revealed through him, and they were of a most consoling nature to women, particularly to those who were making a willing sacrifice in helping their husbands to accomplish the great and mighty purposes which the Lord had commanded them to do, and they were promised that eventually all that were true and faithful would enjoy all that their hearts desired, or could conceive of; their trials and sufferings here would be swallowed up in the glory they had attained to through obedience, and they would be enthroned and reign as queens in the presence of God, eternities without end." - Women’s Exponent, vol. 14, no. 14, 15 December 1885, p. 105-6.
Can you share the rest of the story? About the mother actually sacrificing her baby?
Up until the end up 2022, I didn't even know that polygamy not being of God was even an option. As you can imagine, I experienced some pretty sever depression over the matter... Every time I would try to open myself to understanding it, I would cry for hours and hours. Because I thought it was a true doctrine, I kept God at a distance. Always knew He was real, I just didnt' want anything to do with Him. I couldn't understand why a loving God could care so little about His daughters. Thankfully, I ended up finding out the truth (thanks be to God for leading me to Michelle's channel!) and I am forever free from this false doctrine! I am so very grateful for the people who speak the truth! I hope and pray that this message reaches everyone who is struggling like I was. "The truth shall set you free."
For all the people bashing Michelle look to your own heart and don’t judge!!! This is her path and she’s helping masses of people. It’s her right to believe what she receives from God. If you believe she’s misguided that’s your problem. It’s very wrong how we are taught in the church we have a right to our personal beliefs however if you make it public and challenge any narrative other than what’s it the cultural respected “truth” then you’re wrong and fallen. It’s so very wrong!!!!
Keep doing what you’re doing Michelle! ❤
In his 2015 talk "A Plea to My Sisters", President Nelson pleads with the women of the church to have a bedrock understanding of the Doctrine of Christ, to raise a sin-resistant generation, and to detect deception in all its forms. I have taken his counsel very seriously as I am currently raising a lot of young children. As the world normalizes polyamory, polygamy among other things, I really want my children to be solid on God's law of marriage and his doctrine. As I've studied and scrutinized the doctrine of "many wives and concubines'' as described in D&C 132, I've had to question whether it really fits into the Doctrine of Christ.
When I was being taught by the missionaries when I was 11, one missionary told me "oh and when you're 16, you can go on double dates". "Why would someone want to do that?" I asked. He responded, "so you don't do anything too crazy, it keeps you safe". Based on his limited explanation, he didn't know that I thought a double date was taking two girls out.
Fast forward a few years, my school teacher was telling us about the Mormon trail. I asked my teacher "why did the Mormons get kicked out?" She responded "it was because of polygamy - they believed in having multiple wives". From that moment it all made sense why I would go on a double date with two girls.
Fast forward even more years I now understand that the Mormons were indeed kicked out because of polygamy and many other things. I still maintain the belief that Joseph is a true prophet and the book of Mormon forsaw the pitfalls the latter day church would encounter.
They mainly got kicked out of Missouri because they were against slavery and they voted as a block.
Some Mormons counterfeited American and Mexican money, and a grand jury indicted Young and other church leaders in 1845. If BY was innocent, why would he flee? Why were those who stayed fine staying in nauvoo?
@@joym9061 Look into brigham young and making bogus. He was on the run for counterfeiting Mexican and US currency.
Also, why were Emma and several others able to live in Nauvoo in peace while BY had to flee?
@@joym9061 meh, look into Brigham making bogus. He fled because he was counterfeiting Mexican and American currency. Emma and many others stayed behind and they seemed to be fine.
@@defythegrid9577 I never heard such a thing, and we cannot trust all sources, especially newspapers and apostates. Brigham was upright enough to be a prophet, and he tried to get Emma to go to Utah but Emma did not like him.
Oh sisters. Please be carefully. I want clarity and hope in a topic that is challenging and emotional. However, gathering barbs and thorns is much different than light and truth. Does this interview testify of Christ and his glory? Discernment in the last days is more important than ever.
Wow what a beautiful and IMPORTANT conversation! Thanks, Meghan, for having Michelle on! For me, as I said the same thing as you did and asked God just to show me truth, no matter how hard or ugly, the Spirit said to my mind sooo clearly, “You are called to break a generational curse”. Wow! I realized that not only were my Mormon pioneer ancestors practicers of polygamy (were even sent off to Mexico to continue practicing 😣) six generations ago, but they stopped four generations ago. This is biblical! And now my eyes are being opened to discovering the truth. It’s so exciting! Sooo many members of our church are being freed by this false tradition and teaching and it is bringing such tremendous peace.🥰🎉 Great episode!❤
I also reached a point where I felt like, “If this is women’s eternal destiny, I need to know. And I’m willing to accept whatever is true, even if it’s my worst nightmare [polygamy].” And then I started looking for how God-not people but the Creator-could communicate to us who women are in the Plan.
And I see that same generational pattern in my life, which the scriptures testify of! It’s amazing isn’t it?
@@gwendolynwyneamen sister!
Love, love, LOVE this! Father adores His daughters. I believe He and Mother have chosen this particular time to enlighten and empower us for a myriad of purposes. I can't help but feel that They are a little disappointed in Their boys at this point. 😕
I have come to believe that HPs are beyond feeling disappointment. They ARE pure love. They are in anxious anticipation, though, that Their children awaken and begin to fulfill their missions. There will be natural consequences for individuals, men and women, who fail to do so. We each deeply need repentance. But the time is coming, as you noted! Men and women will arise and do the work. It will be so glorious!
Having "many wives" is not "right in the sight of the Lord..." In the Lord's words polygamy is "wickedness", "an abomination", "whoredoms", Seems clear. The Book of Mormon clearly teaches that it was an abomination in Jerusalem, for the Nephites, King Noah, and for Riplakish & the Jaredites. There is no loophole. What's the controversy? Oh that's right...the Church isn't immune to precepts. Well then read the scriptures, especially Nephi, Isaiah, Jesus, Mormon and Moroni to understand what they prophesied about our day, about the people who bring forth and receive their writings. We all have a lot of repenting to do.
Cant wait for part 2!! This was awesome
Thank you for bringing this to light .
34:45 “We’re just used to it. It’s our tradition.”
SO true! There are a lot of things in the church where that’s the honest answer- it’s just tradition! Ok, now I’m going to start singing the song from Fiddler on the Roof…
I am truly surprised that you had her on your podcast. It just doesn’t fit what I thought you represented. I have listened to her several times and felt lost and confused about things and then I found your podcast and felt I was back on the true path. Just confusing when you have someone who openly opposes our prophets.
Not my experience at all! I believe Joseph. He fought polygamy. Brigham met and married a Cochranite, Augusta Cobbs. Brigham brought in their beliefs or faults doctrine.
That was a great interview -- very refreshing. I'm a man, and I agreed wholeheartedly with everything that was said. I have been a strong member my whole life, as were my parents and grandparents (and beyond). I am totally active in the Church, but am realizing more and more that we need to do our own research, then go directly to the Lord and ask. I follow Gwendolyn Wyne's channel, which has been so helpful in opening my eyes. Then looking at some of Rob Fotheringham's research has also been very helpful. And this interview was excellent. I also firmly believe that women and men are equal in importance and purpose in God's eyes and that we have a glorious Heavenly Mother. The Gospel of Christ is so true, but we need to watch and not just accept things in the Church that don't match up with what the Savior taught. The Savior is perfect, the leaders here on earth are not.
That's why the Lord promises to remove the prophet before allowing him to lead us astray. Follow the Prophet he knows the way.
@@davidsprague6250That is a non scriptural and false teaching that was born out of polygamy.
. We all have things in our lives that we justify in such a way that we can live with it.
Very interesting interview. As a lifetime active member of the Church and a male, I have struggled greatly with polygamy. Like many, I tune into the topic from time to time and learn more each time, yet I am not at the point of feeling fulfilled in "understanding" it. It pales in comparison to my newly found understanding of the ban on temple and priesthood which with new publications, we have been able to explain it as an error of the post-Joseph Smith leadership who misinterpreted scripture and chose to accept unclear accounts of where it originated in the latter-days. This allows me to reconcile myself with it, for I can now accept it as an error. For many years, the old adage of "The Lord will never lead us astray" was what was used to explain it. It is the same thing used in polygamy. However, as you have said, we do not talk enough about these two topics and we simply skim past those sections of the D&C explaining it away as though the Lord must have had a reason to implement such practices. One thing is certain, Heavenly Father allows men and women to err even when they hold leadership roles. There is much evidence of this even though many members of the Church feel that all leaders from Joseph to the present have always acted in true alignment with the Lord's will.
I sympathize and agree with some of what is discussed here but there are some points that show a heavy slant towards secular feminism. If you are serving as a president in the Primary or RS, you still have to go through the Bishop. You can't have presidents calling whoever they want without an overseer to guide and direct the work - that is what the bishop is trying to do. He's not trying to suppress your ability to do the work you are called to do. He's there to try and make sure the entire ward functions well and that includes your organization. This kind of topic can become slippery so if you don't have a firm foundation it can take you away from God the Father and Jesus Christ and His church pretty quick - I've seen it happen all too often.
Take a look at how the Women were originally organized through Joseph. Originally they were entirely able to make decisions without them being approved by male leaders. When Brigham reorganized the RS it was under a hierarchy of men, but that wasn’t original.
Spend some time with this. What you’re seeing as feminism, might not be that at all, just Michelle trying to honour the original RS organization.
@@briarhill4950 I can be open to that being true but the way the ward functions now is likely not like it was in 1840 either. We have males and females serving in Primary and other organizations so I think it makes more sense to have the bishop being an overseer in that regard. I would not be surprised if Brigham Young really screwed this up but I am not sure that necessarily means RS is completely autonomous.
@@duncansh81 👍
At 7 minutes, Michelle says 2004 and 2006, but I know she means 1904 and 1906 because I’ve heard her story before.
When you start tearing sections out of the D&C… soon you are left with nothing. No prophets, no church, just a great and spacious building full of people happy to traffic in your misery, bordered by a river of filth, and people wandering in mists of darkness.
Agreed. This is absolutely horrid. It’s amazing people can force the gospel into their own personal perception and then find joy in their newfound “revelation.”
We as a church seem to be still coming to understand our history. Do either of you know what actually was removed from the D&C, without a vote of common consent? It was the rules for marriage that the Saints covenanted to, which expressly forbid polygamy. The original Section 101 was among those “carefully selected from the revelations of God and compiled by Joseph Smith [etc]” that was in the Doctrine &Covenants until it was removed in 1876 and replaced with Section 132.
Were Jacob’s words edited that say the Lord can command polygamy? Did we also add to the OT regarding the wives and concubines of the great patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who are now gods themselves? David had many given unto him and finally sinned when he took one who was not authorized through the prophet. These are things that don’t fit Stone’s narrative.
You don't know the history about it do you? It is different and separate than any other section in the D & C. You will have to know about this topic in which way you TRULY believe. The time is now to start studying with God on it.
Not a chance. The anti-polygamy movement in the church is where the purely selfish congregate. The issue is a stumbling block serving its purpose. Best of luck to you.
I love this sister with my whole heart. However, I’ve been commissioned to wield the sword of justice in defensive of truth and virtue. This line of thinking of hers is the road to apostasy. Please read doctrine and covenants section 112:24-26. I know that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and all of their successors are prophets of God. I know that Joseph Smith and Brigham young were asked and required by God to restore the doctrine of polygamy in these last days and that they did so at great sacrifice, and they did so in the name of the Lord. Although we do not fully understand this at this time, I know that they were right in what they did. Obsessing over this topic and making it a life mission will lead you down to apostasy. Please rely on revelation and the Holy Ghost to see you through this difficult topic.
I loved the first part of this video. However, about halfway through though, my hackles started to go up and I strongly felt that something was off about this woman's opinion. She definitely comes across as someone with an axe to grind against "the patriarchy". I agree with others who stated this felt like "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture". Especially once she went off on having same-sex attracted kids, and thoughts about leaving the church, etc., etc. While I will call this an 'interesting listen", I won't be changing any of my beliefs.
So what is the purpose of Prophets and apostles and how do you feel about temple ordinances? I agree with some points but see you treading on dangerous ground. Does the church offer any truth in your view l? Do you believe you are choosing to belong to God's church? I still don't understand why you stay. Why should I listen to your views?;I am asking sincerely looking for answers, not trying to attack.
I appreciate Michelle's perspective on this issue. Please understand that it is only one perspective. For whatever my words are worth, I would ask anyone who listens to this episode or the next, or to Michelle's podcast/videos, to do something simple: Don't stop your research here. Meaning, if you're going to engage with this topic (which is a sensitive and incredibly complex one), please don't make the mistake of picking out a single perspective that seems to confirm your worldview and supports the conclusions you've already decided you want to arrive at. I know that is tempting by experience. My journey into the Church itself was prompted when God shattered my hatred and distrust for it and told me to look at truths that I didn't want to believe. My experience investigating polygamy also involved both historical research as well as personal revelation, and it ended up being crucial to my liberation from false beliefs and unrealistic expectations about relationships and marriage. That very fact gives me certain insights as well as potentially certain blind spots or, shall we say, "motivated reasoning." That's not a bad thing. It's just a human thing, and all of us are susceptible to it because we come at history with our own perspectives. Michelle is a human, and therefore she is not invulnerable to cognitive bias, selective exposure to evidence (i.e. cherry-picking), and motivated reasoning -- no more than myself or Brian Hales or Don Bradley, historians whose work I would strongly suggest you listen to at least as carefully as you listen to Michelle's. (By the way, I appreciate also that Michelle has engaged to some extent with them.) I'm not here to argue, but to raise a warning voice. Remember my invitation to you, the viewers: If you're going to get into a subject of this depth and complexity, you owe it to yourself and everyone you might influence to not let your research stop with one side of the story. And you should know going into this that, for better or worse, it might be a real test of your faith. I say that as someone who knows and witnesses of the reality of God, Jesus Christ, and Their leadership over our imperfect but blessed restored Church.
I completely agree! As mentioned in the episode, Michelle and I both came at this and related issues from the opposite position we may hold now, and I think I speak for both of us when I say we reserve the right to adapt again in the future! Cultivating an openness to explore TRUTH, no matter how it impacts your biases is absolutely essential. As I said in the episode, I have asked God to teach me the truth of this issue, even and especially if it goes against what I currently think, because I want that truth above all else. Balancing the masculine approach of looking for logic with the feminine gift of intuition allows for a more solid, holistic foundation on which to build. We should not be afraid to engage with the Lord and learn by the spirit of revelation and prophecy for ourselves what is true.
@@lddisciplespodcast Having Don Bradley or Brian Hales on would be such a good idea. What you do is much appreciated, by so many!
listened to a three-hour interview that Brian Hales had with someone when I was desperately trying to feel peace and understand polygamy. Afterward, I literally spent the entire night sobbing in my husbands arms. I was so beyond depressed. I felt like I had a dark cloud surrounding me. That is not the fruit of the spirit!! Fast forward a few months later, I finally gave it all to God and said, They Will be done! I'll do polygamy if it's ever asked of me...if it really is the right thing to do. Then a few weeks later, I was led to watch Michelle's podcast. The dark cloud that had been consuming me for over a year was finally lifted! Polygamy has never been of God. EVER! I'm no longer weighed down by this evil false doctrine! I will forever be grateful to God for leading me to the truth.
@@lisa143justin I appreciate your perspective and wish you continued peace. As I listen to your experience, I am reminded of many women who experienced all that emotion and more who were actually called to practice plural marriage, as well as the spiritual experiences they reported that helped them live it. Sometimes diverging spiritual experiences need not lead to a crisis, but to empathy and understanding that God has a unique plan for everyone in messy circumstances. And if we agree on nothing else, I think we should both agree, and hopefully focus on, the fact that God has an eternal future prepared for all His faithful children than will be nothing but unspeakable joy.
When I first listened to Brian Hales as a guest on someone's podcast, I was thinking who is the guy? I truly had no idea. I thought, what is wrong with him, he doesn't seem to have the Spirit at all (and he wasn't even talking about Polygamy). After a couple months I heard his name again and then again. After some understanding I became aware he is the one documenting the case about Joseph Smith and Polygamy. I am so glad that the Lord led me on that particular route. It gave me all I needed to know as I had already received my answer about Polygamy not long before and that is not of God and that it is an abomination. I know with certainty that whatever direction things come up I already have a peaceful reassuring answer. I had spent decades not knowing so all this coming together is most definitely getting us ready to go to Zion. I hope everyone will pray deeply and sincerely with God because you will have to know!!!
This channel spoke to me early on but seems headed in a strange direction that no longer appeals to me. I used to wonder what disputations might lead to the church being broken up in the last days but not so much anymore. Too bad some of those “doctrines” are being promoted on this channel.
Have you studied the words of Isaiah...really studied them? You will know what is coming and how to endure. I can't give you the answer but I can say God will reveal a few things you may have never suspected.
I have been loving your podcast and it has blessed my life. This was an interesting listen. I’m not a scholar in church history, and there are some beautiful things Michelle said, however, I sense a bitterness in her against men and the patriarchy that I won’t be taking her story for anything more than her opinion and experience. I feel It is missing the truth. In my desire to learn about this topic, i have felt feelings that there must be a greater understanding that God has with polygamy that i do not. And I can only receive this understanding through the spirit because it can’t be comprehended through the natural man.
Michelle has been horribly mistreated by her bishop & other males, including Brian Hale. So she understandably has some struggles with her feelings towards them. However, she is an incredible researcher & her personal struggles in no way negates the truths she reveals. She is human & not perfect just like the rest of us. All she shares may not be perfectly accurate but that doesn't mean you should throw the baby out with the bath water. Use discernment.
You would really benefit watching Gwendolyn Wyne's videos. Always pray, I believe that is what all of us women are doing.
I have SO many questions! Can i email one of you, Meghan or Michelle? One quick ? though: Meghan, why in one other discussion, i think it was one with Todd McLachlan (dont know how to spell his name, sorry), you were kind of singing a different tune about Brigham; maybe not defending or siding with him but ... ugh, i wish i could remember the conversation better, but it sounds like you are tailoring your position with whatever guest you have on. PLEASE believe me, I mean NO disrespect. I am just wondering why. I am SO confused about ALL this stuff!!😑😒😦
This is Todd McLauchin - I respect Meghan's willingness to explore hard topics, but can't disagree more with Michelle and the movement to disparage Brigham in this way.
@@hikaritoshinriTHANK YOU! It means a lot to mean that you would share your thoughts, and I highly respect your knowledge and position on what I have heard from you. I have listened to most of the episodes on this channel and have been greatly enlightened. She does have courage, no doubt, when bringing on hard topics. I don't want to be one to bury my head in the sand but I find it very troubling that many people who are sincerely striving to find truth and say they are "told by the Lord " or were "lead by the spirit" to things so contrary against leaders past and present. I'm sure there are some faults and mistakes, but some of it is so outlandish it's hard to believe that they could hold such stuff as true. So my questions are: Where are the getting their info? Who are they listening to? And do these sources bring contentions? If so, are they to be suspected as false because the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are grieved by contention. They would not uphold sources which state such malice, right?
@@hikaritoshinriHer own son's name is Brigham. She has talked about how she doesn't want these feelings toward him. We all have struggles, but she also has found out truths. It's a difficult situation to be in to know where the roots started
@@hikaritoshinri Hey Todd, I hope you're well brother. My name is Elior, and I just wanted to say that you, Joseph Smith, and Blake Ostler have done more to help me grow into a knowledge of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit than any other thinkers. I know that He works through you. Can't wait to meet you face to face some day king 👑 Praise YHWH and Yeshua
Emma is my hero too. I'm related to her on my father's side so I never took well to people attacking her. Brigham and his minions were predators.
Wow. So very, very sad. The only thing I can say about this video is follow the Prophet he knows the way.
If we do as Pres. Nelson has encouraged us to do issues such as this if they are issues in the first place become non-issues.
As pointed out in this video, we didn't live back then to have firsthand knowledge about such things, which means we have to rely on others and the records they kept via journals and the such like. I don't know about anyone else, but are you completely honest in all your journal entries? Do you record everything objectively and not allow our personal feelings to possibly cloud the issue/s? Do we make such recordings immediately or do we wait months or even years later to put pen to what we may have been wrestling with.
I believe that if we are truly trying to be converted unto the Lord, these kinds of issues become non-issues.
D&C 132 is part of our canonized scriptures and is labeled as a revelation. Now, if I understand the flavor of this video, it is being declared, not a revelation. That's a pretty hefty accusation. If that were true, don't you think it would have been corrected?
If this is or isn't what you are declaring, a simple yes or no will suffice for correcting my initial impression.
Don't get me wrong. We are all human and are all affected/effected by the society we are raised in and the people we are raised by, which is a part of our overcoming and becoming converted unto the Lord.
This is the first video I have watched that I have had screaming in my head during the whole video 'evil speaking of the Lord's anointed'.
I guess I had more to say than I thought. I apologize if my comments offended anyone, but I felt that I had to express my thoughts and feelings on this video.
I find it interesting that we could have kept a false doctrine for over a hundred years that was ended in 1978, but we cannot believe we might have more to shed from the Brigham era.
Also remember, evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed is Brigham.
However scripture gives us permission to discern leaders, teachers our church and doctrines.
@@briarhill4950Follow the Prophet he knows the way to helping us stay on the covenant path even though our covenant path is individual.
I get what your saying about the " weirdness" of a male and female friend being not teaching together if not married, I Think the reality is the biggest part of that is about liability and so that people are less likely to get false if cues do things. Church doesn't need scandal with the paper if somebody accusing someone to be inappropriate. That's just the sad time we live in. People are slanderous and lawsuit happy.
I would love to hear her reasoning when it comes to the Biblical Patriarchs.
She covers the scriptural case for plural marriage extensively in her early podcast episodes! I highly recommend reviewing those.
Why would all the 12 apostles lie about Joseph Smith practicing polygamy? why would the official history of the Church include lies about Joseph Smith? Why would Church historians go out of their way to tell about Joseph Smith practicing polygamy?
Great questions to take to the Lord and learn whether or not there’s anything further to explore here.
Joseph was excommunicating people for polygamy during his lifetime (and taking them to court and condemning them publicly, writing in his journal, etc.). There were men like Brigham and Heber who served their missions amongst the Chocronites who lived a life of free love and spouse swapping. Brigham got a married woman pregnant and brought her to Nauvoo, and Heber was writing in his journal about women he was spending a lot of time with (he had a wife and kids at home). Michelle has all of the resources about this on her podcast 132 problems. Look up the ones with Jeremy Hoops, they’re great ones that talk about this. There’s a reason why Brigham hated Emma so bad, and why Emma denied Joseph ever having been in polygamous relationships. There’s also a reason why D&C 132 didn’t see the light of day until 8 years after Joseph’s death, and at the time Joseph had canonized the original D&C 101 that condemned polygamy by name.
It wasn’t all of them. Some of them jumped ship and were replaced. In addition to all of that, those left in authority to preside and excommunicate polygamists were ran out of town. You do know that after JS died, the last remaining member of the First Presidency was ran out of town as well as the Nauvoo Stake president, right? Neither of them polygamists. Hmmm…
Not all 12. Those that didn’t fall in line got replaced.
Why would the Book of Mormon, the most correct of any book, consistently teach against the abomination of polygamy? Joseph, Hyrum and Emma taught against polygamy until their dying days.
I was open-minded at the beginning portion of the interview, but Michelle had taken the mask off completely by the end. Her attacks on Presidents Brigham Young and Russell M. Nelson were disgusting and you just smiled and nodded. "I completely agree!"
It definitely gives reason to pause when I ponder continued support of this podcast.
You need to read the Journal of discourses. Brigham Young isn't who the Chutch portrays him to be.
Search the words of Isaiah, they've been a source of comfort knowing that these things have been prophesied well before today.
@@allthingsarepossiblethruchristBrigham Young did nothing wrong
I stopped supporting this channel with this podcast. Such evil speaking of the Lord's anointed.
@@davidsprague6250 would you have stopped supporting Jesus who spoke evil of the High Priests and the pharisees sadduces and scribes too?
If you are a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints saying that Plural Marriage is not from God means you really don't have a true understanding of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Plural Marriage is inextricably connected to the doctrine of the Son of God's atonement. If you discard Plural Marriage you are in essence rendering the atonement of Christ a false doctrine. You will need to think very hard and pray very hard to understan why, but I will give you a clue. If you are a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saint and understand at least a bit of its doctrine you should wholehartedly believe God the Father has a wife, who is our mother in heaven. Jesus Christ is not the physical son of that mother.
So you don't accept D&C 132 as revelation either?
I would not recommend any faithful member to this lady. She said a lot of things that caused my discerning eyes to raise its eyebrows, but as soon as she started criticizing the 1st presidency, I said, “I’m out!” That is a line that I do not cross. We are in trouble with learning when we think we know more then the Brethren know.
Well said, good job using discernment based on correct principles.
The fact that I played a part of this podcast makes my phone feel dirty. The darkness was palpable.
As long as 132 is Scripture... it is scripturally of God.
I agree with much of what she is saying. People should trust their own instinct and follow what they believe. What I think is interesting is that she doesn't believe that JS practiced polygamy and that only BY and the prophets that followed fell into that false teaching. I assume that is to maintain some of the beliefs or teachings that she values from JS and to possibly stay in the church. The issue with this is that the church openly admits that JS had polygamous and polyandrous marriages that included sexual relations. JS often denied being engaged in polygamy to the public. This is problematic because there is a lot of evidence saying he was. This is why the church and church historians would claim he did despite it causing problems for many with JS. If they could deny or find a way out of JS being involved then they would. Second, this either means that JS lied or the leaders from BY until now are lying about JS and polygamy as they all state he did. It would also mean that the Lord has allowed men who are lying to lead the church and many who were involved with a very false teaching (polygamy). According to JS, an angel with a sword came down and commanded him to practice polygamy. Is JS lying about that or are you saying that people made that up and put that into history? Either way, it doesn't sound like a healthy organization to belong to. How can you trust any doctrine or policy at that point? Was everything made up or created or backdated. There is other evidence of JS lying or God lying depending on how you want to look at it (see book of Abraham)? In conclusion, there is a lot of evidence that JS lied and retrofitted words back into revelations of texts. It wasn't just Brigham Young and the prophets that followed. Either way, if it was just BY all prophets following have taught false doctrine regarding polygamy as well as race and the priesthood. The polygamy would be considered unrighteous dominion so amen to the priesthood and the power thereof per the oath and covenant of the priesthood. Also, polygamy was always illegal in the US so there goes article faith 12 where we are supposed to obey, honor, and sustain the law.
This guest opposes not only the historical reality of Joseph's polygamy, but also the temple. Surprising to see her on this channel hawking her wares.
Joseph’s history on polygamy was to preach and write consistently and persistently against it. He excommunicated those practicing and sued those accusing him. Emma and Lucy claimed Joseph was only ever seal to one woman, Emma.
@@DerekPayne1791 That's the biggest bunch of BS ever. It makes hundreds of faithful early members and leaders out to be liars...simply not the case and mathematically impossible. Michelle is a false prophet.
I agree that polygamy is not right for most people. Having one spouse is difficult enough. If it is a sin to have more than one spouse then that is for Heavenly Father to judge... not you or me. I can see that there might be times when it is necessary to have more than one spouse for the purposes that I might not know or understand. I will keep searching as I can see that you are too. In the end everything will be alright. I pray that day comes soon.
Isaiah 4: 1 "... We will eat our own bread, & wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach."
Everyone is given hardships & trials. They are for our learning. I don't want to murmur about what others did when I realize that I am struggling with my own problems. If someone saw my trails & how I handle them, then I am sure that many would criticize me for my decision. This is my experience & for me to learn & grow. More will be revealed when I am prepared & ready.
What happened to us telling the story called "The Gift of the Magi"? It seems that for over 100 years that story was told to show that marriage is about selfless sacrifice & caring for each other. Now it seems that as a collective, those in the church have decided to focus on self love & getting my way. I am certain that those that sacrifice for others, to give glory to our Creator, are blessed in unimaginable ways.
First of all its not Mormons, it is the church of Jesus Chirst of latter day saints, hearing her consistently say Mormon doctrine already make me not feel this is from Jesus. I agree with the scriptures in Jacob, so polygamy goesnt make much sense. But i do read all the scriptures not just the parts i want. Sometimes God does establish it, almost all the phrophets of old had more than one wife. And it said God walked with them. God even got mad at jacob/Israel for not loving both wives he said that he gave him. This feels like, because we dont know or understand, people are trying to pull the wool over there head because of there feelings. But even in Isaiah it says 7 woman will take up one man, cause not enough good men. It says God will make the woman bald and stinky to humble them, so it looks like things are going to get real bad before people humble themselves to truly listen to the holy spirit and not there own feelings. Im not saying polygamy is right in all time, but ive read the scriptures enough to see there are times God tells people to do it or allows it. Its not the Mormon church it is the restored church from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Yes, a lot of red flags for me too, and good point about the seven women wanting to marry one man in our future! This will be because so many men will die at war. Some women truly want to have children more than not have children. Maybe Leah would have never married so God blessed her that way. I am sure she will be with a man who loves her for eternity. Her children will have their own spouses. We're all just couples in the end with access to our loved ones. We will all be sealed as sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, and we'll be one big family of God.
@@joym9061 I agree, I dont know how and why all the stuff is the way it is but I trust that Heavenly Father does. I don't know if everyone in heaven will have just one to one spouse which thats what evidence to me with birth rates of about the same amount of men to woman are around the same. Or if the saying that more woman than men will go to the celestial kingdom which in turn some might have more than one spouse. I don't know, I know that lehi was said in the scriptures that she had a lazy eye and a different face. She will be perfect in the next life, she might be given a new husband, or not cause in Jacobs later life he started loving both his wife's. Me in a perfect plan it would be amazing everyone has one person in the end. But God's ways are not my ways. And in hard times I can't believe woman would be so heartless if they saw another woman in need and it was the middle of war times and no power and they would cast them aside simply cause they want all the attention to themselves and are ok to watch other woman in need die alone, cause they don't have someone to protect them. In bad times I see it in good times I dont.don't. In the end we are all God's children, we only are sealed together cause the grace and love of Jesus Christ. His ways are higher than our ways and he sees the big picture, in the end it will all work out.
Isaiah speaks in code, yours is not a correct understanding, take a look at Rob Kay’s description of the seven woman verses.
@@syrogziel7231 Re-read the Old testament accounts of polygamy very carefully. See if you can gain a greater understanding of what went down. Imagine if you can if Leah was down syndrome. Consider why Laban might have shifted the care of his daughter into Jacob. Remember, Jacob was deceived by Laban and was downright dishonest with Jacob for many years. Check out Joseph Smith translation of the Old testament and include them in your re-evaluation. Also consider Sarai's desperation to get a baby. It was HER idea to force her bondwoman to get pregnant by Abram.
I struggle with the latter day saint title myself. I still find myself saying "mormon" so it's still habit and I'm an active member
There are so many things I don’t agree with during this podcast. I think I’m in a mood or something. But I do believe there is a matrialartical order of things we don’t quite understand. Anyways this was kind of sad and I love our prophet and past prophets.
This video of scripture prophecy explains really well what is supposed to happen with leadership. Once we understand what was foretold, things will make more sense.
ruclips.net/video/csMe3FWEe-8/видео.html
I feel like they actually don't know. They have not poured over all the documents, records and journalis. They are not bad they just don't know yet. Prophets are not perfect people with unlimited knowledge. They may be able to see some of the future to know what's good for us though. They also do their best according to their own understanding. When we say they are not perfect we have to understand that by saying they don't know everything or make mistakes is saying the same thing.
I understand they are not perfect and we too don’t have a perfect knowledge of things, but how do you honestly answer the temple question sustaining the prophets when you believe they all been leading us astray this whole time which goes against everything we believe. We believe prophets speak for God. And I 100 percent stand behind our prophet and the last prophet and also believe God has things the way they are for a reason. And also trust God to not let the latter day prophets lead us astray.
@@julieannecottam this Jeremiah prophecy may be helpful to understand what is happening and how to navigate through out prophets
ruclips.net/video/csMe3FWEe-8/видео.html
@@julieannecottam I believe in the prophets too. I love President Nelson. Sustaining doesn't mean submitting to every word that comes from their mouth. A lot of Brigham Young's prophetic words have been taken away from other prophets. So why not something that is also wrong like polygamy?
I hate to break it to you but Joseph never ever mentioned anything about a mother God. It wasn’t until some years after his death where this doctrine was introduced. My opinion on why the LDS church doesn’t want anyone touching on that subject too heavily is because when you look back in LDS history where this doctrine began, it was always mother Gods (plural). It was a way to justify polygamy. If God was a polygamist and we were to become like God, then we would live eternal lives as polygamists. Mary the mother of Jesus in the flesh was God’s daughter but also later became one of his many wives, they claimed. Sick, huh? Don’t believe me. Read the writings of Orson Pratt who, by the way, also introduced D&C 132 to the Utah saints in 1853 for the very first time.
That also explains why they added that verse in D&C saying God has flesh and bones and removed the Lectures on Faith, which was canon during Joseph’s Smith’s life. They had to recreate the nature of God to make it fit with their doctrine. It’s sad.
Maybe Joseph Smith didn’t teach it, but if a woman leader taught it, it is still be true doctrine. Perhaps it was a doctrine specifically meant to come through inspired women. “..truth is reason,” as Eliza Snow’s song “Oh my Father” testifies. The thought of NOT having a mother “makes reason stare”, as she puts it.
Other prophets and church leaders since Joseph Smith have testified of Her, including by using the phrase “Heavenly Parents.”
I’ve learned through study and also prayer. I know She’s there by direct communication to my spirit. You can know too!
Additionally, the existence of our Mother in Heaven is in the Bible! Adam was instructed to leave father and mother and cleave unto his wife.
If you’re interested in where else in the Bible, and even the Book of Mormon, Mother God is mentioned, Margaret Barker’s studies are a fascinating resource. Dr. Val Larsen is another to look into.
I hope this is helpful.
@@jjhardy2000 Eliza Snow? The one that lied about being a plural wife JS while she was actually the one living polygamy as one of Brigham’s many wives? The woman verifiably lied as proven by her own contemporary diaries which contradict her later stories entirely. Sorry, but no, she is not someone to be believed.
I am very familiar with Val Larsen’s interpretations of the Book of Mormon and have been openly critical of them. The BofM is meant to be for everyone and in fact, one of its purpose was to make plain the doctrine of Christ and put to rest false doctrines and traditions. Dr. Larsen presents it as some kind of coded scripture that would require someone with knowledge in Hebrew to grasp fully, which defeats the purpose of the book entirely. Instead of reading it as it is, he takes his own precepts, most of which are Utah born doctrines, and forces them to “fit” into the text in a way that twists such plain and precious words to mean something else entirely.
I do hope one day you can read again the BofM with a fresh pair of eyes, all while leaving what you think you know behind you. Once you do, I promise it will change your life like it did mine.
@@jjhardy2000 Would being the leader of the Lion House qualify someone as a leader worthy of divine inspiration? Serious question.
Anyone who is living worthy of inspiration can receive it, but I was referring to Eliza’s leadership capacity as president of the Relief Society.
In section 132, we are told that God's house is a house of order. Vs 8.
Polygamy was an Abrahamic test. (Vs 51)Emma was told to stay herself, and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her, for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice. "
Polygamy would not have happened if Joseph had consulted with Emma and had brought polygamy together in prayer and came to a consensus in the Lord. Marriage is a partnership with the Lord. Polygamy got off on the wrong foot yet it will be reconciled in the Lord in the future . As long as polygamy was lived with a desire to serve God, faithful hearts were blessed by acting in obedience. The purpose of Polygamy was to try their faith as was Abraham.
Eventually, many who carry the genetic memory of polygamy will fulfill the promises made to the fathers to overcome the curses placed on the earth.
The same is true of Eve because she partook of the Tree of knowledge outside God's time, will and way without Adam. A curse was placed upon the earth that distorts the correct order of true marriage being made one in the Lord.
Please invite the other side of this discussion on your show!
The other side of the discussion has been all we have ever heard. Deseret books, Manuals, Conference talks, BYU education week,…. Let a different look at the history have a chance.
That’s what I also said in my own comments. And of course you got the same response here as I did with someone coming on saying that polygamy has always had a side to the story. To which I strongly argue that it has never had a fair argument based on correct understanding or truth. It has only ever been painted with dishonestly to propagate fear and manipulate members to reject such doctrine! Very few have the correct understanding of plural marriage, they wish to only apply earthly standards of mortality to a celestial doctrine. The first thing people think about is perversion and jealousy! Neither of which will be present in the celestial kingdom!
@@jamieforbush3375 Could you point us to a scriptural example of polygamy working well? That was one of the things that caused me to rethink my faith in it. I can’t find any example in scripture where it works.
Oh no! I really, really don't want to offend-I only want to warn viewers that Sister Stone may not have a clear and accurate view of polygamy. Things she's said have led me to believe that she believes polygamy was never condoned by Joseph Smith, let alone by the Lord Jesus Christ. But she's very subtle is how she introduces her ideas. She begins by citing scriptures that, of course, we agree with. She uses these to build a relationship of trust (whish, by itself is a great way to share the gospel!). She then shares quotes and a few scriptures that, without context and related scriptures, seem to indicate that polygamy is and has always been a sin. Then she talks about how Joseph Smith would never betray Emma by engaging in polygamy; this is the start of a devious psychological snare. While we consider the idea of Joseph Smith betraying his wife by engaging in a practice that she's just primed us to doubt, we experience a strong cognitive dissonance. It's uncomfortable and our conscious and unconscious minds want to resolve it. That's when she provides an easy way out of the emotional dichotomy-she claims that Joseph Smith never practiced or taught polygamy. This "resolution" provides a quick exit from our discomfort, i.e., it is pleasing to the carnal mind, and many will ignore (or forget) what they already have learned about the matter to "test" this new idea. As the idea sinks in, more cognitive dissonance erupts as the ramifications become apparent. But Sister Stone is right there to provide more "answers"-Brigham Young introduced polygamy to satisfy his lusts, he lost the rights of the priesthood, the church diverged from the path established by Joseph Smith, etc. It is true that secret combinations control most of the governments on the Earth. Conspiracies reign in politics, the media, education, and much of organized religion-so why not in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? If you choose to go down this hole-which is tempting to do because Satan is helping rather than hindering your descent-you will find yourself in a group organized by a man named Phil Davis that calls itself, "Doctrine of Christ". You will no longer sustain the Prophet and the Twelve Apostles of Jesus Christ. You will come to see temple worship, like Sister Stone does, as idolatry. You will begin to believe that Brigham Young orchestrated the murder of Joseph Smith. You will also learn to forget and disregard the many, many spiritual witnesses you have received of the truthfulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the church that He established. The Doctrine and Covenants makes it very clear that the keys of the priesthood will never be taken from the earth and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints-regardless of the fallibility of it's leaders-will last to the millennium. Joseph Smith declared, "The standard of truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done." The philosophies of men, no matter how subtly they are presented, cannot stand against the witness of the Holy Ghost. Pray about these things! Remember times when the Holy Ghost spoke peace to your souls! I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints IS the Kingdom of Jesus Christ on the Earth. I declare it in His holy name.
I didn't like where she was headed with "oh!! I'm for the gospel of love!!! And Oaks is too harsh!!!" Meaning she doesn't want to touch in her daughters being gay as a problem. Well, daughters being gay come from an effeminate dad or sexual abuse, so....does she honor her husband and his role?
I’m just curious if you’re going to give the other side of the argument a fair and balanced chance? A part 2 perhaps? Michelle Stone is very biased one way which unfortunately goes against canonized doctrine and what is currently still and always will be core marriage doctrine within the church. As a “latter-day disciple“ it’s walking on very shaky ground to give Michelle Stone a voice which goes against a major part of the restoration as well as church history without giving someone else a chance at the counter argument
The other side of the argument has had a very long time to make their case. It’s everywhere, it’s all we LDS have ever known.
And yet, the light it’s always ever been painted in has been negative! The little that anyone will even talk about it within the church has it unfairly painted as dirty, naughty, sadness, jealousy, and about every other worldly viewpoint! All based out of ignorance! When in fact, marriage is a blessing from God toward a family, and plural marriage is multiplying of those blessings onto a family. Just like those who multiply their talents
Listen to Don Bradley for the other side of the argument who collected the 1500 manuscripts for the books "Joseph Smith's Polygamy". I personally believe it was necessary to jump start the Church because there have always been less faithful men than women, and God knew there would be a "very small remnant" in the end who would form Zion according to Isaiah. Yes, God does not like polygamy, but we force His hands, and He will support those who fully rely on Him. Isn't that God's end goal as well that we learn to fully rely on Him? When Joseph Smith's wives were on Family Search, I followed them all, and half were married to Heber C. Kimball and half to Brigham Young when Joseph died. Many went onto having a third husband and having their first child with that man. The Lord also did not like faithful Blacks denied the priesthood, but likely the general membership of the Church could not have grown like it needed to with racist white people. God had to wait for people to change. The Lord also knew the vax was not safe or effective, yet, again, His hands were tied, so He allowed the prophet to keep his trust in healthcare organizations. His hands were tied because His main goal is to get temple knowledge to the members, so we can be apart of Zion, and we only get into nations and stay in nations because we say we'll follow our governmental leaders. LDS soldiers in Germany were told to follow Hitler.
@@joym9061 Interestingly, I’ve listened to Don Bradly speak on this quite a bit and he consistently puts forward the proposition that Joseph could have been/probably was a polygamist but making that mistake doesn’t nullify the gospel. Don Bradley says nothing about polygamy being divine. He expresses it as wholly a mistake of men.
@@gwendolynwyne that is NOT what I've heard Don say! He definitely knows Joseph practiced polygamy, and he's never said one way or the other about it not being divine.
Hi Megan, let me first say that I’m a heart lander,Brother Joseph was NOT a stone in the hat guy nor was he a Polygamist. I gotta say this was really weird to me. Michelle seems to have a lot of other issues going with the church aside from polygamy. She plays the victim card in every topic she addresses. We love your content and all the work you do but this one was just weird.
The ending did it for me. She wants delicacy because she has 2 gay daughters.
Where is the evidence that Joseph Smith taught about a heavenly Mother? You cannot say that he taught heavenly Mother while saying he didn’t teach polygamy.
I use to love this podcast but I fear you are getting off track.
Way too much philosophy of man
Mingled with scripture.
Totally agree
This is what I'm hearing, too. A lot of assumptions being taught as facts
🚩
I think this gal is on a slippery slope with her opinions.
Parallel could be those who supported blacks in having the priesthood when the ban was still in place, only decades later for the church leadership to denounce that it was wrong. Or those who believed Brigham that Adam is God, only decades later for it to be announced as false doctrine in general conference. Our foundation needs to be on the scriptures, because trusting in men/leaders have shown they get it wrong sometimes.
These aren’t parallels. We believe God directs the church. Continuing or discontinuing a practice does not change the core doctrine.
Catholics figured out the need for a feminine divine. That’s why the Virgin Mary was elevated to a divine stature. My mom was constantly praying to Mary directly for help and guidance in her life.
Did Jesus teach your mom to pray to the virgin Mary? Just asking, because I'd like to see that in scripture.
@@littleredhen3218 I don’t know where she was taught it. Maybe in Catechism class or by the priests and nuns in Catholic school. But yeah it could have been Jesus as she prayed to him too. Praying to the Virgin Mary was a huge component of my Catholic upbringing. The women in my life (mom, sisters, aunts) seemed to especially like praying to a female divine entity that was more relatable. I never knew that other faiths DIDN’T pray to her until my 20’s when I started reading about other faiths. The Mormon faith caught my interest as one faith that did not pray to any feminine divine.
That truly is a problem when Mary replaces God and Jesus, and as littleredhen said, it's not what God has asked us to do. Mary received no status above being a righteous mortal in the Bible, and there is no such commandment to pray to her or any other other so-called "saint".
@@joym9061 I don’t think replaces is an accurate word. It’s a feminine option for divine prayer. Female Saints too. Plus it’s a matter of faith. My Catholic family was very faithful. I’m not critical of various differences in beliefs. If you choose to believe in a feminine divine entity and pray to her that’s great. The Catholic faith provides that feminine option that provides comfort to many people. If your particular faith doesn’t provide that option and you are happy then wonderful.
cringe episode
Plural marriage is a central component of LDS theology and it's always entertaining to me to watch mainstream LDS twist around to make sense of this reality. Being a fundamentalist is freeing
How would explain Joseph’s clear denunciations of polygamy as being fundamental? It seems more like a new doctrine introduced by Brigham. So fundamentalist would really be following Brigham and not Joseph. - 'If a man commit adultery [polygamy] he cannot receive the Celestial Kingdom of God.” JS HC 6:81
- “What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.” HC 6:408
- “For it will surely bring a curse upon any person who commits such deeds” HC 6:81
- “Why are you using my name to carry on your hellish wickedness? Have I ever taught you that fornication and adultery was right, or polygamy or any such practices? Times and Seasons 3 [August 1, 1842]
- “because they say they have authority from Joseph, or the First Presidency, or any other Presidency of the Church; and thus, with a lie in their mouth, deceive and debauch the innocent, under the assumption that they are authoriz’d from these sources? May God Forbid!…you may be inform’d that no such authority ever has, ever can, or ever will be given to any man, and if any man has been guilty of any such thing, let him be treated with utter contempt, and let the curse of God fall on his head…for we do not want any one to believe any thing as coming from us, contrary to the old established morals & virtues & scriptural laws, regulating the habits, customs & conduct of society; and all persons pretending to be authoriz’d by us, or having any permit, or sanction from us, are & will be liars & base impostors, & you are authoriz’d on the very first intimation of the kind, to denounce them as such, & shun them as the flying fiery serpent, whether they are prophets, Seers, or revelators; Patriarchs, twelve Apostles, Elders, Priests, Mayers, Generals, City Councillors, Aldermen, Marshalls, Police, Lord Mayors or the Devil, are alike culpable & shall be damned for such evil practices; and if you yourselves adhere to anything of the kind, you also shall be damned. Now beloved Sisters, do not believe for a moment, that we wish to impose upon you, we actually do know that such things have existed in the church, and are sorry to say that we are obliged to make mention of any such thing, and we want a stop put to them, and we desire you to do your part, and we will do ours, for we wish to keep the commandments of God in all things, as given directly from heav’n to us, living by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord. Mar 31, 1842 www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book/109
- “I preached in the grove and pronounced a curse upon all adulterers and fornicators, and unvirtuous persons and those who have made use of my name to carry on their iniquitous designs” Grove Sermon Apr 10, 1842
- “Satan taking advantage of this [false accusations] has transfigured it into lasciviousness, a community of wives, which things are an abomination in the sight of God…contrary to the law of God, which says, “Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife. He that lookeht upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in his heart.” T&S 1:82-85 [April 1840]
- “Joseph forbids it [polygamy] and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife” JSP Oct 5, 1843
- “As this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. (Original D&C 101 removed by Brigham Young)
Sounds to me like you need Don Bradley to come and clean up this sisters mess.
Don Bradley explicitly believes that Jacob provides no exception for polygamy.
@@DerekPayne1791 which is totally fine. He has his opinions because he methodically goes through evidence and doesn't let emotion become the focus of the argument. I can't say the same of Michelle Stone. I don't care either way when it comes to polygamy.
People believe what they want to believe. Let’s be honest about that. It is good to hear each other. It is good to learn. However, I have heard her on Mormonism podcast and that interview made
me feel that her efforts may not always be pure.
Hate to break it to everyone but if you are a second wife to a widower, you are in a polygamy marriage. Michelle is treading a slippery slope. I just urge caution. I don’t know the “TRUTH”. Neither do these women.
“If you are a second wife to a widower, you are in a polygamy marriage.” Source??
I feel the Spirit is telling me she's not someone I should spend much time learning from.
check out Joseph's law on marriage found in D&C section 101 in the 1835 version. It remained in cannonized scripture throughout his lifetime and for many years to come. In 1872 Brigham young had it removed and replaced the marriage doctrine taught by Joseph Smith with the polygamy doctrine found in Brigham's creation of section 132.
@@joym9061Are you certain that isn't your fear rather than the spirit? 😏
@@shaunaguymon2960 yes, I know how the Spirit feels and I strive to be fully obedient so I am not deceived.
Oh! It's not just widower women. I have 3 kids out of wedlock in this culture. You have no idea how many men will tell you they don’t want a woman with kids.