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Principles of Discernment: Tim Ballard, Visions of Glory, and Seeking Truth
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2023
- Meghan is joined for this special episode by Todd McLauchlin, Josh Chandler, and Mark Kehoe. The group discusses the following topics, in connection to the recent events surrounding Operation Underground Railroad (OUR) Founder, Tim Ballard, and the book, "Visions of Glory," as connected to Thom Harrison.
- The Necessity of Seeking and Discerning Truth from Error
- Overcoming Fear
- Cultivating Humility and Charity
- Perspective on Recent Events
- The Spirit as the Iron Rod
Please join us on Thursday, October 26th at 7pm Utah time for a follow-up discussion on this topic! The team will be taking your questions, and sharing additional content for clarity on this crucial topic. Access the Zoom link: us06web.zoom.us/s/83871297344...
Register NOW for Awake and Ascend: The Mountain of the Lord, our virtual conference being held on November 3-4 at latterdaydisciples.com/events/conference.
The purpose of this event is to explore ancient and modern temple types and their patterns, to more deeply understand the significance of temple worship, and the application of temple living in our mortal journeys.
Also, we have an EXCITING ANNOUNCEMENT, which we will share during the Saturday session. You won't want to miss it!
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This has been the BEST discussion ever! Thank you so much. Really amazing thoughts that are going to make me watch this with pen in hand to take notes of those things I want to contemplate.
Loved this discussion! So much wisdom borne of walking the path.
Many times we discern according to our life experience. When I entered the Special Interest Program I learned so much from the people there as to what really goes on in the world. We are very sheltered and trusting as a people. The many financial scams have hurt many of us. Other crimes are out there too.
Special interest group?
This was a great podcast, y'all 👍
I'd like to comment on VOG. It was given to me when first it was published. Tom's NDE experience didn't bother me in the least. However.... there was a point towards the latter part of the book when they were traveling north towards Canada when the Spirit asked that I read no further. It was quite clear, so I closed the book and donated it. A few years later, a friend and I were talking about it after we'd seen Tom at an Avraham Giliadi conference. She gave me her copy and suggested that I read it again. I took it home, read it, and the Spirit stopped me in the exact same spot! Undeniable was the strong visceral response from the request that I stop reading it. So....I don't know how it ends, I've never asked anyone. One thing that has disturbed me since it came out is how some members treat it as scripture. Big mistake there. Although Tom published his vision, it is HIS VISION and no one else's.
I must be out of the loop on what has happened with it because it was lightly touched on in this podcast. What's happened?
So are you saying that Giliadi is tied into people who are into the book? That is very scary as I watched a video showing that Lori and Chad Daybell were tied up with this group.
@@icecreamladydriver1606Chad and Lori also went to church in a specific ward. Maybe the ward and it's bishop were bad like them? There was no group that anyone is a part of. Avraham Gilliati has conferences where he teaches about the book of Isaiah. VOG is simply a book. No groups, no weird things going on, other than weird people doing their weird things and bad people like Chad and Lori doing their bad things. Individuals making individual decisions.
@@mrk7525oh no, there are groups, he did spoke in fire places. He regretted, but the apostle told him not to write a book. After the apostle died he went ahead and wrote VOG. I think he is suffering from depression, and probably for a long time. To me, his dreams and visions are all made up. It is sad that some people are using the book as preppers, and as gospel. Now is too late to take it back, but he made a huge mistake by writing this book or to be compel to write. I am a Christian, it is in the Bible they we will have dreams and vision, but nowhere it’s said that will be to guide people to do anything. Prophesy is first for us, not to others.
Repentance is certsonly key... the kind that causes you to really see things fresh.
Wow, great conversation, Meghan, your interpretation of the wheat and tares is awesome, I agree and that makes sense. Also Todd, Josh and Mark, you all have great comments and many things for me to ponder on.
Fantastic! So many things to ponder. Thank you!
Todd’s comment on charity was totally on for me. What a great thought.
I was sent the book from someone that is now serving as a mission president. The reason he sent the book was because I had a dream which are the best words to describe my experience. It was as I lived a day in the future and that dream I shared only with a few including my bishop to see if he understood why I had such a dream. My dreams are usually a warning or an answer to a question. My dream although at a different location was described in Visions of Glory, my husband at the time was not only inactive but was doing a lot of things wrong. He read just the chapter where he notices that this was my dream and he was overwhelmed with tears. It answered many of my questions. This book changed my husbands life and inspired him to repent and he now serves in the temple. The book itself says that changed things etc. But a person that can discern I believe gets the meaning of this book. I can’t imagine trying to fully interpret my own dreams and finding the words here to explain them, sometimes it takes years for me to understand my own dreams. In the Bible Old Testament and repeated several
Times in the New Testament that Hod gives us dreams. My dreams have affected many around me so I was shown that and that surprised me because we are taught basically that our dreams are sacred and to be kept to ourselves. Father showed me this is not true. I know many will disagree but one day soon you will understand why this is. Father knows not everyone goes to church, hears our prophet etc. He will speak to many of his children and in many cases he does this through dreams. Many who have dreams may not know how to explain them. This can go in the wrong direction. Joel 2:28 Acts 2:17-18 1 Nephi 2:1
Did not Lehi affect others than his immediate family because of his dream. Think about that?
I've been reading a book all about Christ appearing to Muslims, in particular, in dreams.
I
Have a Muslim friend who also had an amazing dream. She dreamed that she was woke up in the middle of the night and we had to leave very quickly. Ensign was saying grab your backpacks grab food grab whatever you can’t. We have to leave we have to leave. She said there was a lot of water coming in a great earthquake it happened and in the middle of the park a giant river rand what was so amazing about that. She told us about the dream at my office on Tuesday and that weekend we had a downpour in Las Vegas. I actually videotaped because a river port down the middle of the park, which I was amazed because I’ve never seen that happen before but I learned later there is an underground tunnel that runs were the water flows out of the park and she didn’t know it either and neither did I but it her dream she saw this.
@@rebeccabradyaycock267Spencer’s book was clearly for himself, not others. If Jesus, from the Bible does not inspires you to serve him, why a human dream will? Does God shares his glory with man? No way, God is mighty, yes, he will save some Muslim or someone else that can’t hear about the gospel, but in the USA? We are free to buy and read bibles anywhere, anytime. Spencer was wrong by writing his visions and dreams, and he knows.
@@laurenmay2098???
@rebeccabradyaycock267 yes, I can't understand thar either!
Mark! Thank you so much for your explanation of the centrifuge!! 🙌 I thought that I was becoming more sinful, but I’m not! It is me SEEING more clearly my faults and weaknesses. So I can repent of them. BECAUSE I am seeking the Lord and His truth, He is opening my eyes and helping me to become purified
“And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness.” Ether 12:27
When I read the book VOG... I felt enlightened! I don't worship the Book or the author. There were no bad feelings as I read it. Great discussion!!
VOG changed me! It inspired me to asked questions and i got answers I never dreamt of.
@@leannekuhlmann4443 I have read it 3x!! My spirit sored with joy as I read it! It has also reminded me that ALL my thoughts and actions matter!! That I must be valient!! I had a dream about the water covering Salt Lake 2 years before I even read the book. What is going on with "Spencer"? Has he done something wrong? 🥺
@tammyiraheta5010 I'm not aware of "Spencer" going astray or anything. I personally haven't discovered anything that contradictory to the gospel, but I guess it's not for everyone.
I agree. The book is remarkable and it inspired me to be a better, more sincere latter-day saint, and adhere more closely to the prophets and apostles.
The portals seemed odd until I read Joseph Smith's account of Moroni appearing in his bedroom. He says a conduit opened above Moroni, and he ascended up through it. Then suddenly it wasn't so weird.
I wish this conversation had given just a modicum of context for what VoG has to do with Ballard, or anything else for that matter.
I also enjoyed the book and it made me think a great deal about things, but I never took it as scripture. It is a metaphor, but surely not everyone feels the same way and that's ok.
The example of the temple endowment slightly changing is a great example that we still have the truth, but we’re getting a more fullness of it as time goes on.
I also feel like Joseph said about the Apocrypha is another example of needing discernment because part of the book is true.
I’m feel very grateful to have the spirit help me discern things. 😊
Ironic, if the Catholic Church had changed baptism as much as the LDS has changed the endowment we would say it was in apostasy.
@jamescrane6583
Isaiah 28 teaches that we are given wisdom line upon line, precept upon precept. The Endowment Ordinance has not changed, only the presentation of the endowment in order that our wisdom and understanding can grow precept upon precept.
The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are the milk that can nurture all of us spiritual infants and toddlers. That is why the principle of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentence, and Baptism are so clearly spelled out in the scriptures and the account of the manner of Christ's baptism has been available since the times of apostles.
The pattern of the endowment can be found in many accounts in the scriptures, but requires the guide of the spirit to recognize beyond a surface glance. Since meat does not nurture infants and toddlers who have not first grown and developed through feasting on the milk, the meat is not freely offered to all like the milk is. It is meant to take more effort to seek and knock, but we are promised if we seek we will find and if we knock, it will be opened to us. As we have sought more light and knowledge, we have been given more understanding through the changes in the presentation of the endowment. It isn't the Endowment Ordinance that has changed. It is us.
@@jamescrane6583agreed. In fact, it's not the case that we have had more revealed in the temple but rather that parts of the endowment have been taken away.
Read your Bible, not the Book of Mormon, the Bible and the Holy Spirit will help you to understand. Joseph wasn’t a prophet. Study who he was for real.
@@laurenmay2098 why should I trust the holy Spirit?
I truly enjoyed listening to the Visions of Glory and I never once felt deceived by its content, rather I felt enlightened by its message! In fact it opened within me the desire to be more righteous than I ever have been before so that I can be worthy of Gods protection and guidance in the days of tribulation!!
I felt the same!!! 🩷. But why is everyone talking about "Spencer" as if he did something wrong??
@@tammyiraheta5010it all about perception, if your looking for deception you will find it!!
Because he started a mini cult out of his own doctrines and making people into their own prophets.
@@cameronbrown5134 How does one start a mini cult without followers, meetings, or some sort of hierarchy? He spoke about the book at one meeting, as one of many speakers on unrelated topics, over 10 years ago - hardly enough to establish his own cult. And how does he accomplish making people into their own prophets? The book was out there for public consumption, so no author has control over how a book is received or what whackadoo things people will infer from it. It's quite a stretch to say he's responsible.
Jesus died in the cross, we must to look to be like him, but do you think by your works you will deserve anything from God? Please read your Bible and the Holy Spirit will help you. I listening to Spencer podcast, it was unbelievable how he thinks that his own works will leads to salvation.
Re Josh at 1hr 21 minutes. “What we’re lacking today. I feel this is so correct. We’re taught to defend our ego, when it needs to be forsaken, so we can be Christ’s light.
Yes. I agree with your persuasion comment. I hate the line of…join us and be happy or don’t join us and be miserable. Not a great persuasion tactic.
100% correct. The ego works against God
Stay close to the Spirit. Don’t do anything that would drive him away. Study the scriptures daily. Seek truth by fasting and humble prayer.
I hope the scriptures you are mentioning are only the Bible as known today. Not the Book of Mormon. May God bless you to read and follow only his Bible, inspired by his Spirit.
This ties into this weeks Come Follow Me lesson so well.
This is soooo good!
Wow, first 23 minutes so far...so good!
I guess I’m doing it right so far. Because it’s been a very painful process. Shedding the natural man is tough. People say they would do it all over again to get where they are, I think maybe I’ll say that someday but not there yet. 😂
Right!?! I'm having a discussion with HF where I'm telling Him ok back up, I can't do this! It's soo hard. Never mind I'm not ready!
😂
Key to not being deceived, if their words are flattering then you are at risk of being deceived.
Personally I have been accused of being flattering in my conversation and I used to try to avoid it. However, I have felt impressed over and again that I need to be kind and express my feelings to people. I easily love others and I have gotten very comfortable sharing my good feelings. I am still accused on occasion of flattering however I feel people need to know they are loved. 😂
It may be helpful to consider that in Hebrew, many of the words for “flattery” are connected to “hypocrisy”. If you are moved to speak genuine kindnesses, that is not the flattery we would be referring to. Rather, flattery may be better termed as a false compliment, or kindness given with guile and ulterior motives.
@@lddisciplespodcastgood point....thank you.
By listening to Spencer talk I was very concerned of his motivations. He speaks softly and he says someone about being “deliciously “, his words and connotation is creepy and directed to female audiences.
Thank you for the insight. @@lddisciplespodcast
Why is there a strong connection from VOG to Ballard, Vallow, Daybell, Hildebrandt, Franke, AVOW, etc.? It must be more than coincidence. 😮
It is more than coincidence. The discussion here is for sane people. Fair enough. All of the ones you mentioned are mentally challenged, IMHO. The book is dangerous. This podcast wants to defend the book. IMHO, Spencer is a sick man. I have many dreams, some real, but it is not gospel. It is for me, my family and maybe friends. I pray about, but not share at all. I believe God gives us dreams, so we can pray about and minimize the effects of what is about to happen anyway.
Triangles? Any video you can point me to to understand triangles?
By their fruits ye shall know them and to many evil fruits have come from visions of glory will not seek after these things we are suppose to seek after good things
What a profound conversation. Discernment between the light and the dark and counterfeits is so important.
Great discussion. As a subscriber to this channel, I find great value in the content.
I first saw Todd at a 2016 UVU Gileadi conf featuring Thom H as a speaker whom Todd introduced. I am so grateful Thom shared those experiences through that amazing and inspiring book, and I definitely won't be among those currently calling for its burning!
I also listen to Denver Snuffer, and the Lord has led me down a path to receive a new covenant. I take no offense to the implication of being misled. I pray every day that my will is aligned with His.
God bless you all, great discussion!
What did you think about Jesus being in a suit and tie and no one knew it was him until he stood up to speak?
@@MommaCrissa Indeed, what a powerful book!
@@petertaylorpedro Interesting. I didn't feel the spirit with that situation at all. It turned so sour for me that I couldn't believe others would think it is from God.
@@MommaCrissaI didn't take that part, or a vast majority, of the book literally. I think there is some beautiful symbolism there. Before Christ stood up to speak in the conference He was working in and around the people to help clean and offer relief to those in need. He was with them from the start and played an active role in their aid.
At the conference people didn't recognize Christ and truly know Him until He spoke their name. There is some temple symbolism there.
I think it is an error to interpret the book in a literal sense. I also think those who take it as fact are wrong. They did a good job in the podcast explaining that we are different and get value out of different sources. I think that is wonderful and speaks to just how well our Heavenly Father understands us.
I heard no promoting of books or requests for donations. Nor did I hear any mention that visions of glory was all truth. If you have opposition than you must be doing something right.😉I enjoyed this discussion. Keep up the good work!
I guess you didn't see his white board👀 i posted it on my community section in a short someone made about it. They show it and explain
It makes me marvel that the prophets warned us about priestcraft in our modern day. It seems like one of the indications that someone might be going astray is when they start benefiting financially from their interpretation of doctrine. When book sales, seminars, and monetized media becomes the way you provide for yourself, and what you are selling is just a repackaged form of the Gospel which should be free, then it leads to puffed up pride, sensationalism, and eventually apostasy. I think a lot of these creators and LDS thinkers should bear the warning of priestcraft in mind.
What is the Daybell and Vision of Glory controversy currently? I only know of the Tim Ballard controversy going on.
Also, do these guys have a podcast? They have incredible insights!
youtube.com/@ShatteringTriangles?si=NWr-s5-bQFcazD1W
Please explain the part abt the veil of forgetfulness that Josh spoke of - that w/out it, the adversary would completely overwhelm us & possess our bodies. How would remembering our pre-earth life w our heavenly parents give that power to the adversary?
In order to have this earth-life be a proper test, with opposition in all things, the veil must let in good and evil equally and without discrimination. Then we choose which influences to let affect us. So if you are to open the veil, if you want to keep the test of mortality a test (which you must in order to maintain the plan of salvation) you can't open it selectively. You can't open to just good. If you open it, both good and evil will get in. In that way, not knowing truth protects us from knowing or being influenced by evil. And we qualify to open the veil further to receive righteousness precisely when we are able to discern and withstand the evil that will also come through the veil if it is opened. If you think back to the temple, to the moment that the veil is put in place, the Adversary says he will possess us. And he would have if we had not been protected by the veil. Which we are now even more clearly taught represents Jesus Christ.
Please read your Bible and study for yourself. The Holy Spirit is in you and He will help you. There is no way that a temple, your body, be taken if the Holy Spirit is there. Dear saint, God does protect us from the enemy. Where the HS inhabited, there is no space for the enemy. Read your Bible, I am not a Mormon.
Yes, I do like and understand the 1:04 mark or so. Yes, abide by the Spirit and Hear Jesus Christ. This is from the prophet or rather from the words of Christ. The pattern to follow in all things.
“Many of you know that you cannot get your endowment without the Devil being present;“
Brigham Young JD 3:50
This group seems like it would benefit from reading The Demon Haunted World. I highly recommend.
There are many good books to learn from. VoG isn't the hinge point for truth and knowledge.
I was hoping to hear more around the Dark Daybell teachings of dark spirits and Multiple lives that came from this book( as per my understanding from others statements. I haven't read the book).
I am going to find his podcast about his vision, it was before the book was released. If you listen to him, you will know why chad and Lori wanted to kill people around them.
About 4-5 years ago, my son lent his copy of VOG to me and asked me to read it. I read it, but felt like it was not for me. I heard about it later through Chad Daybell’s comments. But after I finished the book, I watched some videos where a book club was discussing this book and they were talking about portals and keeping Satan out of your house by drawing a square around the person you needed protected, and other bizarre (to me) teachings. It was incredibly strange. I tried just a few days ago to go back and listen to this book club and they still have the VOG that they study, but none of the “strange” things. I don’t understand why they have taken off the first book club and replaced it. They sounded very much like the Daybell beliefs. I don’t believe members should have these firesides, as they allow the mind to wander to forbidden paths. Satan can easily deceive us if we don’t study what we know God has revealed. Once you’ve been deceived by Satan, you find out how easily Satan can turn our lives upside down and enjoys every minute. He is laughing at the ease he can lead us into strange paths, I know that for sure.
I'm loving this as I go deeper into my relationship with the Lord. But why is the video so blurry? Keep up the good work!!
Love visions of glory. Felt prompted to to read it. I took it as his experiences and dreams, not necessarily doctrine and it was uplifting and enlightening to me. I agree we are all susceptible to being deceived, we all need to stay diligent and not think we are above losing our way.
At his talking, before the book was released, he said over and over, this is my experience. Then what happened? People made gospel out of his visions and dreams. People are the problem, not his book. I do not believe anything about his book, but people are taking away by a simple testimony, a simple dream. I am sure there is a group or groups that take his book as gospel. If he followed his apostle advice, he wouldn’t had written a book. I feel bad for him, he made a mistake and continue to go deep into the same.
...in a nutshell, the heart can be so deceptive.
I don’t necessarily agree. I think the heart is a powerful instrument to know truth, in as far as the heart is whole and healed. It’s easy to misinterpret the heart’s knowing if we have wounds and trauma and false beliefs. We need to repent and be healed of these things and then we can trust the heart’s knowing better.
Talking about Visions of Glory, and the answer "to be more faithful to the church" is incorrect...it is to be more faithful to God and our Savior. The church is only a place holder for organization.
Spencer said that it is by paying ou titles and going to the temple we will be worthy of going to heaven. He completely discarded Jesus sacrifice on the cross. And he had followers, it is unbelievable.
Todd, your walking in the spirt. Thanks so much for the comments
Keep in mind that Tom Harrison didn’t get to make any initial changes to the book because Jon Pontius died and his wife didn’t make any changes. He told his stories to Jon and the initial draft was created. He wants to make changes and it didn’t happen. The point of this should be did the book say anything about multiple mortal probations and the church absolutely has never taught that or that we are married to multiple people.
The book never talked about multiple mortal probations.
That’s my point, these are bad actors who are preaching things the book and the church never did.
Can't believe how much back and forth there is about this book. People saying the Spirit led them to it. People saying the Spirit told them not to read it. People saying the author has partially disavowed it. People saying the author has secret apostolic approval. And the list goes on.
It talks about portals, that we lived before in heaven. The book is a crazy dream, imho.
@@CMZIEBARTHhis apostle told him not to write a book. To wait the lord would tell him how to interpreted. He said h was lead by the spirit and he was going to met a man named John and when he met Jon he opened his heart about his visions and dreams. Jon was the one doing the interpretation. Then he died, the rights of the book was with his wife, she changed nothing and published. To me, his dreams and visions were for his growth only. Portals are in the book. He said he choose to be born, and we are the ones building our own portals. I don’t know why Jesus said he was going to go to heaven to built our mansions if I was the one building anything. We are nothing without God, he will build nothing. Jesus will came back and we will rein with him, we are not working, we won’t be busy, we will worship God day and night. By the way, when Jesus build anything, he is not busy, he creates from nothing by speaking to existence. Why are we not reading our bibles but a Mormon book and visions and dreams to be convicted of Jesus promises? 😢
This discussion assumes the listener "knows" the Tum Ballard & VOG controversies. A little background would've been helpful to kick off the discussion. I am one who is unclear on these controversies.
For almost two years now all we hear around is an scandal about people following the teachings from the book. Unless people live under a rock they don’t know about this book and the devastation he caused.
@@laurenmay2098 then consider me a bug under a rock.
I want to know more about the spirit of the accuser?
It's the parable of the Talents, isn't it? The Lord say being afraid to "invest wisely" spiritually is not a reason, it's an excuse. Where much is given, much is expected.
Did you not hear him talk about the Savior and how he looks forward to feeling the prints of the nails in His hands & feet? These men are already saved by Grace and they look to live out the rest of their lives doing the works of the Lord. Didn't Jesus say to Peter: "lovest Thou me?" And Peter said yea, Lord. And Jesus said, "Feed my sheep."
Feeding the Lord's sheep calls for action.
"For it is by Grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
Is it I , Lord? Always the best question
The peace and spirit I feel when I read VOG can’t be compared to any other book I’ve ever read short of scripture. The veil is pretty thin for me and I’m literally accompanied by a spirit when I read it that gives me peace and comfort I’ve also had similar visions as him. Anyone who tries to discard his experiences or make him wrong is not using the Holy Ghost or discernment. They need to check themselves rather closely for their personal agenda and intentions.
I hope you turn to Jesus, the one without Joseph Smith and BY. Only Jesus. May the Holy Spirit opens your eyes. In the book Spencer said that it is through your titles and temple attendance you will go to heaven. What happened to the salvation that Christ died in the cross for me, not by works, but by grace?
Amazing how you all can speak on behalf of the Lord and make declarations of what he will or will not do. So amazing how you can declare what Satan will do.
People who quote from the book of Moses are any good at determining the truth.
This podcast is geared towards those who have faith and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I love the book of Moses!
@@hikaritoshinri having faith doesn't give anyone the ability to speak on behalf of God.
@@mrk7525 love it all you want, that doesn't make it true.
@@hikaritoshinri none of these panel members should be declaring gods motivations/behaviors with such certainty. They are just another flavor of tom Harrison.
This is odd. I feel I've been told by the spirit that visions of glory is not doctrine or scripture. I dont think we should be peer pressuring people into believing visions of glory.
The veil is the body. Without the body we would still be in a spirit world. That's why we have a veil. What are you talking about why we have a veil. We have to have a veil, of forgetfulness so we can be tested in morality.
I love all the big words so delicately delivered these guys liked to hear themselves say. Doesn't the spirit speak plainly? Are they wanting to appear learned? Good content, but good grief does truth suck the life out of everyone and have to be so heavy? It was simply arduous to get through.
I thought they guys were very intelligent, but I think they need to remember that the gospel is the good news. There is so much to be happy about. They were extremely serious. The gospel is full of light.😊
Wow how misguided and delusional … absolutely mind blowing!
You’re spot on with seeing how the book will end and it always ends just as expected. You follow Chad Daybell, Thom Harrison, Julie Rowe, Tim Ballard, Aviraham Giliadi, (insert everyone on this podcast name), the ending is the same. Jesus never shows up, prophecies fail, time and relationships are wasted and ruined. Take a step back and realize the entire church is the exact same thing on a larger scale. It’s all such fantasy and make believe (BUT I’VE HAD EXPERIENCES!!! -everyone in every religion)
So, you don't like religion and you just troll youtube channels?
What...talking everyday to each other for hours on end? Is that hyperbole? What about wife and kids? Sounds to me they are missing out and therefore you're missing the whole point of the gospel. (51 minutes etc.)
My issue is the stirring that Tom Harrison has creating. I think church authorities need to look at him seriously because he is still teaching things that are incorrect as a therapist. Tim Ballard is buying in just like Chad and Lori did and also Julie Rowe. I just think he’s a root cause of a lot of the evil things that are coming about because of his book and the things that he is currently teaching.
He hasn't practiced therapy for years. And he isn't teaching anything and hasn't talked publicly about the book for 10+ years. Please do not spread falsehoods.
Knowledge can lead to pride and priestcraft:
2 Nephi 26
29He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.
When a member says listen to my video or read my book on a Gospel subject then that can be seen as priestcraft. We are not to be the light on the hill with Gospel Knowledge but share and point to the Savior, his church, or his servants.
The other thing is don't lust for knowledge that dose not align with the scripture, his prophets including the current prophet, and when there is no edification from the Holy Ghost.
It is always a temptation to set yourself up as a light. Whether you are bearing testimony in a sacrament meeting, as a missionary teaching an investigator, as a bishop in a ward, and even as a parent; whenever you venture into teaching and ministering in the gospel, and when sharing a testimony, the risk is always doing so out of pride. However, just because someone shares a tesimony it does not follow that it is priestcraft. If this were the case you should cancel all church activity.
To the the assertion that "knowledge can lead to pride and priestraft". Yes, that it is true. But knowledge is also the salvific principle of the gospel. It is ministered through pure knowedge. It is ministered through testimony. If we are going to be consistent about suggesting people should not publishg books or videos with their own views, we should close the doors on Deseret Book, BYU, and every outlet except for official church publications. And this standard, by the way, would require you to discount even President Nelson's own books, which all contain the disclaimer that they are his opinion and do not represent the views of the church.
@ShatteringTriangles I understand priestcraft to be similar with pride. "My will" vrs "the Lord's will." Bearing a testimony or sharing an experience in the Gospel to lead people to Christ or build the kingdom of God is good and not priestcraft. The issue I see is one setting themselves to be the authority on the Gospel and establishing a cult following. Example: "The prophet and Apostles don't understand Isaiah like I do" or "listen to my theories on this Gospel topic."
CES is authorized to teach the Gospel for coin by the first presidency. However, they get called to repent for priestcraft when they teach philosophies of men instead of the orthodox Gospel.
@@cdmbcgm I think what you point out is valid. But I also think contextually it could be a strawman. Your Isaiah example I am assuming is a criticism of Gileadi. If it is, I think it is unfair because the Apostles rarely, if ever, talk about Isaiah so its not really a credible critique. When it comes to "theories" of the gospel - they certainly exist - but I also think this type of criticism is sort of a dishonest approach to disagree with those who don't share your personal views of your own "theories" on the gospel.
@ShatteringTriangles I don't believe it is dishonest to align with the scriptures, the phrophet, and church resources. As an Elder of Israel, it is my duty to warn others. Anyone who teaches theories contrary to the orthodox doctrine, I have a duty to speak up, especially when I have personally seen these ideas embraced by apostates. You can rationalize the why, but anyone who understands all the scriptures knows those Ideas don’t align with church doctrine. If I say anything that doesn't align with the scriptures or church leaders then critique my behavior with scriptures or resources from the Apostles/Prophets and I will repent. As for priestcraft, I will let Elder Oaks explain it:
"With a trained mind and a skillful manner of presentation, a teacher can become unusually popular and effective in teaching. But Satan will try to use that strength to corrupt the teacher by encouraging him or her to gather a following of disciples. A church or church education teacher or LDS university professor who gathers such a following and does this 'for the sake of riches and honor' (Alma 1:16) is guilty of priestcraft.
Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion. [2 Nephi 26:29]
Teachers who are most popular-and therefore most effective-have a special susceptibility to this form of priestcraft. If they are not careful, their strength can become their spiritual downfall. They can become like Almon Babbitt, with whom the Lord was not well pleased because, as the revelation states,
He aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church; and he setteth up a golden calf for the worship of my people. [D&C 124:84]"
@@cdmbcgm Have the brethren spoken against Visions of Glory? Where is the scriptural contradiction? I think you are shadow boxing with an enemy you wish you could have rather than one that is based in reality. I don't normally like making assumptions about an individual's motive when using a dishonest representation of a perceived enemy, so I will observe generally that when I see arguments like yours, it is a reflection of someone that wants to be content in a perceived saved status by virtue of institutional affirmation rather than actual repentance and the required transformation upon which all salvation is contingent.
If people are staying in the church because they rely upon some kind of emotional/mental sugar high from a book like Visions of Glory (that Thom admits is to a great extent fabricated, "misinterpreted," and doctrinally-incorrect), then they are being set up for a hard crash when they find out that Thom himself has little or no confidence in its message. There is much more to come on this issue, and it is not going to go well for promoters of the book. One of the worst fruits of the book is that many people who read the book end up losing their confidence that we have an authentic prophet leading the church, because he does not give them the same mental/emotional sugar high.
None of what you said is true. It’s a projection of your hope, not born from a charitable desire to serve the truth.
I think it's disingenuous to say Thom has little or no confidence in the message of the book-it just isn't true, and I think you have to want that interpretation to see his statement in that light. Unlike those being sold the John Dehlin narrative, I knew Thom's feelings on this book long before two days ago. It's been bizarre to see those feelings twisted and reframed to support a narrative bent on slandering a good man. You can join their ranks, but they mock from the great and spacious building.
What are you so afraid of? Why do you feel that people should not be free to garner truth from any source they so choose? Why do you feel it is such a threat?
@@mrk7525 It’s not a threat to me, because I see it for what it is. But for other people? I think the answer to that question will become evident in the near future.
@@cameronmayer2153 Thom was clear that at least a third of it was John’s material, and among the remainder there is material that is doctrinally incorrect, coupled with Thom’s and John’s misinterpretations of Thom’s experience. Those are his words, and they do not sound like confidence to me.
And he really might be a good man, or at least sincere. I can acknowledge that. I have my own theory as to what happened with Visions of Glory, and it does not involve Thom being evil.
I first read this book several years ago. It was also the last time I read that book. Although there were many interesting stories that seemed to be mingled with elements of gospel truth, the vast majority of the book felt ridiculous to me. How can members of the church, who are all striving to listen to the same spirit receive such different responses from the spirit about this book? I let my parents read the book, and they quit reading it halfway through. It felt apostate to them as well. The book is so far removed from the simple teachings of the savior, and it has proven to be the downfall of many of its readers. I think this book should be avoided at all costs. Honestly, I am completely embarrassed to know that I share the same church with people who believe this ludicrous, and satanic book to be scripture.
I found many true things I received before reading the book...confirmed in the book. The spirit of it scares some people... but that doesn't make it false.
Look at it this way. I've had such incredible experiences with the Book of Mormon that it has changed the trajectory of my life. It's like a fire hydrant and I can't even drink it quickly enough. My Bible loving evangelical sister believes it to be the most apostate book. She began reading it and says it is so far from Christ's original Bible teachings and that I am deceived. She won't even allow me to have a copy of the BOM in her home. How can two Christ loving people be having vastly different experiences?
I in no way believe it to be scripture, but it did cause me to want to learn how to repent more deeply.
These sentiments of being ashamed of members of the church for accepting something so satanic are the same things my family accused me of for being baptized into the LDS church. Just be careful of where you are treading with blanketed statements like that. 🤍✨🤍✨
Let's define Satanic as of the characteristics of Satan. Satan is hateful, rebellious, forceful, antifreedom, deceptive in order to destroy, and he has an insatiable desire for power, control, and worldly pleasures. Are those actually the fruits of the book Visions of Glory? Are those the fruits the author was seeking? Are those the fruits that "Spencer" was seeking when he agreed to tell his story to the author?
Just as the Book of Mormon doesn't force people to believe it is scripture, neither does the book Visions of Glory. The Holy ghost speaks to our minds and hearts to help us recognize the true principles found in the Book of Mormon. It is those true principles that the Holy Ghost manifests to us that create our conversion. We are here on earth to learn through our own experience to discern the good from the evil. The focus should be on seeking out of the best books words of wisdom. Anything that is lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. If you didn't personally find the book lovely or praiseworthy, seek after something else that does inspire you, but turning around and criticizing anyone who did find something inspiring and lovely from V of G isn't praiseworthy. I don't find the color orange lovely, but that doesn't mean others can't find something lovely there.
On the flip side, placing the words ofany person above the words of God's current prophet is dangerous. Our current prophet said "Learn to HEAR HIM." Its OK if you didn't hear Him in Visions of Glory. That doesn't mean other people couldn't.
Ouch
Josh Chandler quotes Joseph Smith as saying: “I have never heard of a man being damned for believing too much, but they are damned for unbelief.”
This is the essence of the malignant soul of the Mormon Church; don’t use your own reasoning ability, but establish your faith in what the exalted leader tells, no matter how what he says contradicts what is right and moral.
The revelation concerning Tim Ballard’s outrageous sexual exploitation under the guise of being a spiritual leader is a continuation of the deception established by Joseph Smith. It’s rooted in the core of the Mormon faith as is clearly demonstrated in this 1842 deposition of Seventeen-year-old Martha Brotherton, concerning her secret conversation with Brigham Young. Notice similarities to Tim Ballard?
BY: This is our private room, Martha.
MB: Indeed, sir, I must be highly honored to be permitted to enter it.
BY: Sister Martha, I want to ask you a few questions; will you answer them?
MB: Yes, sir.
BY: And will you promise not to mention them to anyone?
MB: If it is your desire, sir, I will not.
BY: And you will not think any the worse of me for it, will you, Martha?”
MB: No sir.
BY: Well, what are your feelings toward me?
MB: My feelings are just the same towards you that they ever were, sir.
BY: But, to come to the point more closely, have not you an affection for me, that, were it lawful and right, you could accept of me for your husband and companion?
MB: If it was lawful and right perhaps I might; but you know, sir, it is not.
BY: Well, brother Joseph has had a revelation from God that it is lawful and right for a man to have two wives; for as it was in the days of Abraham, so it shall be in these last days, and whoever is the first that is willing to take up the cross will receive the greatest blessings; and if you will accept of me I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom; and if you will have me in this world, I will have you in that which is to come, and brother Joseph will marry us here today, and you can go home this evening, and your parents will not know any thing about it.
MB: Sir, I should not like to do anything of the kind without the permission of my parents.
BY: Well, you are of age, are you not?
MB: No, sir, I shall not be until the 24th of May.
BY: Well, that does not make any difference. You will be of age before they know, and you need not fear. If you will take my counsel it will be well with you, for I know it to be right before God, and if there is any sin in it, I will answer for it. But brother Joseph wishes to have some talk with you on the subject, he will explain things, will you hear him?
MB: I do not mind.
BY: Well, I want you to say something.
MB: I want time to think about it.
BY: Well, I will have a kiss any how.
😢
Thanks for your concern. We'll be fine. Just go and follow your own conscience. You don't want to listen to us & we don't want to listen to you. Leave room on here for our people.
@@nancylowe2692 But I am listening to you. I have presented a quote from Brigham Young. I can send you more quotes from Journal of Discourses that are even more hair raising than what I presented here. B.Y. is the mouthpiece of God and if you disparage him as you have aren’t YOU the apostate?
Where have I disparaged Brigham Young?
@@nancylowe2692 Okay, I chose the wrong word. But would you agree with me that it is scandalous that the founders of a major World religion are clearly sexual predators?
Paul said .. if you are deceived …. CHECK YOUR MOTIVES !!!!!
Bad guessing is nothing of God. First step is repentance until you are visited of the covenant (willing to take upon you the name of Jesus Christ with full purpose of heart and at any hazard in this life!) God makes this at prayer and accepted you are visited with the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.....LDS assume the HG tragically. NO spiritual confusion after you have been visited of God's baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. It is added upon and given of God what at times to go and do or write or speak. LDS are too shy to admit every member can be a true prophet, apostle, and called and sent witness.
Bad guessing at righteousness is folly!
This book completely and utterly destroyed my father, the most spiritual person I’ve ever been around. This book takes people on the edge over the edge into Toon Town. It’s complete horse manure! Do yourself a favor, become a student of early Mormon history…culture and context of the time. Consider ALL information and then see what you really think…
Lori Vallow certainly wasn’t “damned for unbelief”. I think the criticism of those media channels discussing this issue is that your cosplay is a big problem because it’s abusive and dangerous. Otherwise there would be no discussion whatsoever - you’re otherwise not interesting.
Cosplay?
visions of Glory is a fiction book written by a imperfect messed up human being like us all why do you call it truth?
I didn't like the book at all. I enjoy many life after death stories but that one is not great.
This book changed my life and was the impetuous to my spiritual journey. I've been a member of the LDS Church my whole life and this book woke me up and the fruits have been unmistakable.
I think the whole point of the podcast is to not rule anything out. That's how I feel about Visions of Glory, I'm not ruling anything out.
How do you know it’s all fictional… They were his dreams! They were not your dreams!
@@DavidParrishSlythe problem is just that. His dreams . They are for him. And so many members take it almost as scripture. I read it twice and it gave me yucky feelings both times. The review on FAIR..is dead on.
Stick to the prophets and you will be fine. These people came and go
Stick to the Bible and you will be fine. Joseph Smith came and go, BY as well. They were only men trying to be god.
I can’t listen anymore, a whole lot of shoulding, of you have too, of expression of knowing/truth… It’s laughable as if you KNOW.
The Holy Gost is the purest epistemology