Fixing TF2's Worst Weapons - Demoman
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- Опубликовано: 1 мар 2023
- With some minor exceptions, TF2 is a pretty balanced game. However it's certainly not perfect, which is easy to see when you consider how many weapons in a class's kit are downright not worth using. So what if we fixed that? In this video, I aimed to fix every bad (and underused) Demoman weapon in the game by giving them slight tweaks and complete reworks. Balance is definitely something that needs to be tested, but overall the changes aim to make the weapons more fun to use and more viable overall.
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Outro music by liledix4: • 🎵 Graze the Roof ︱ PvZ...
Gameplay with weapons that go below D on a tier list is hard. Quality of clips has suffered and I am apologetic. 
Игры
In light of recent feedback, I am going to 1984 the Loose Cannon section of the video since I agree the changes were shoddy. I really hate doing stuff like this because the resulting discussion is usually worthwhile even if the suggestion is bad, but most of the feedback for this particular section of the video has been the same point that I can't help but agree with. So, since this video was more rushed than usual and because my mind has been changed on the Cannon, I'll cut its section out for the sake of getting actual feedback on the other weapons. (It'll take a few hours for the edit to show up so you'll still be able to see it for now)
I mean what? What Loose Cannon section?
Are we gonna see a server where we can try these changes? That would be awesome
GOOD. GOODY GOOD GOODERSON. GOOD SWAN. YOU GET YOUR BREADCRUMBS TODAY.
Dang, i literally just got here and shit's already gone down
what’s 1914ing something?
@@itscznben8728 fucking american
Putting a harsh deploy speed penalty on a melee weapon that was designed as a last resort option seems inherently contradictory
Sounds like Valve.
Holster and deploy are different stats
Which is why it should have the holster delay, not the deploy delay: quick to pull out, once your done it takes longer to put it away and switch back to your primary or secondary
technically all melee weapons are "last resort" weapons, that's been their main purpose in FPS games for decades. I think the idea they were going for is it is a slower to deploy last resort option but in return it does much more damage.
@@minneelyyyy8923 technically, you're very wrong. Engineer, Spy, Demoknight, and even to an extent Pyro all rely very heavily on their melee weapons.
Additionally, games like l4d2 have melee weapons being much stronger than ranged weapons in most situations.
I get what you're saying, but my point is that TF2 is not like most games, and has its own balance process.
Caber rework idea:
+1000% explosion damage
+1000% ragdoll knockback
Automatically plays demo voiceline during enemy's respawn.
this is the best rework yet
And the knockback is straight at a 45 degree angle, and the ragdoll bounces off walls and ceilings.
But would it kill the user and the vitctim for double the ragdoll?
@@royalhydra9790 That's the point, yes
Plays the demo MEDICCCC sound specifically
I feel like wanting to remove double donking from the loose cannon makes any take you have afterwards automatically invalid.
Based
it can just feel a bit over the top sometimes tbh
People would revolt
@@fortnitesexman That's only because those who have used it long enough have figured out how the timing works properly, so skill based
Double donking is the FUN of the Loose Cannon, taking it away is like not being able to rocket jump with the wrangler
If the pyro can set fire to the sniper's arrow, then engineer must repair the Demoman's Caber
That could be pretty cool
that doesnt make sense, you dont even need a pyro to lit arrows, medieval mode has these torches, why would a mechanics based class help explosives based class?
@SuperTroll2003 And to repair Caber you have a resupply cabinet? Well at least it should recharge over time, or else this is just a silly weapon
@@SuperTroll2003 bro unless you only play like 3 maps for the torches, you do need a pyro to light the arrows
The reason why the Loch-n-Load is bad is that it has 3 grenades but only two tubes. If I used it, it would drive me to insanity.
also all the grenades are loaded into 1 single tube so idk what the second tube is for
bottl
I believe in iron bomber superemacy for this reason. 4 slots, 4 grenades... as it should be.
@@sirGuy1995 *barrels don't move*
*t h e a n i m a t i o n s d o n' t f i t a t a l l*
Valve does not update weapon model only texture for skins
I just wish one day the caber could be refilled by ammo pick up, and also increase the base damage of the caber to always do 125 damage no matter ramp up or fall off
omg actually i just realized how based that would be
If you did that Caberknight would become the greatest pick class in the game
@@callumbreton8930 it deserves to be tbh
@@callumbreton8930 To be fair, you're basically throwing yourself at the enemy, which if they allow you to get that far in the first place, they definitely deserve to have their medic caber'd
What if you basically make it "yes, you can one-shot light classes, but you WILL die". So if you swing you ALWAYS inflict enough self damage to kill yourself. Now it's a kamikaze dive-bomb into the enemy medic-combo.
The only reason the loch-n-load was nerfed to only deal additional damage to buildings is because of a now removed mechanic in the form of damage variation. Meaning, really, all you need to do to fix it is revert it back to a generalized damage bonus rather than a damage bonus that only applies to a very particular category of target - one which demo frankly already excels in and doesn't need hep with.
Well spoken
no shit, everyone knows this at this point. What you dont know, is that this gun actually had a fix made to it, so RDS wouldnt roll high enough to kill light classes, and the damage buff got removed a couple months later regardless.
I’m pretty sure the nerf happened because the Loch n Load was buffed to have a clip of 3 instead of 2 and there was a lot of complaining around this time about the LL combined with the Charge n Targe which also had afterburn immunity, and Valve decided this combo was too much, removing the afterburn immunity and changing out the damage bonus to only buildings.
@@TheMistermastermario the three pipe was post damage nerf
...
As a Persian Persuader enthusiast, it’s never crossed my mind that the weapon could be weak. Gaining (effectively) instant charge on melee kill and not having to use the Tide Turner to do it has always been really fun for me, and I’d hate to see that go.
the thing is none of demo's swords (unless you count skullcutter) are weak
we got the healer sword half zatoichi which is best on a tanky playstyle
the eyelander which is pretty powerful into being a dominant option making the rest of the swords looking weak
the Persian persuader being the weapon that allows you to charge much more at the cost of gimping you if you play hybrid knight
and the sword of difficulty to type and to pronounce which is the best trimping tool demoknight has in his arsenal allowing you to go from one corner of the map to the other if you're good enough at using stairs that are effectively made of ice
the only real problem is that the eyelander is very dominant which overshadows the other swords
@@user-oy2zg3bt6n Really the best way to fix this is to buff the other swords or nerf the eyelander, some other swords could use more to them like the half zatoichi should give a short speed buff, or the cladmear should give even better mouse turning speed. The Eyelander could also just have its total speed per head reduced.
@@silverdededestruction2197 correct
buff the other swords or nerf eyelander
Not to mention, the Persuader is meant to be a pure demoknight sword. It feels like sticking a damage vulnerability on that, though making it more generally usable, would make it a lot less workable in that role.
@@user-oy2zg3bt6n I think it's more interesting to buff the other swords instead of nerfing the eyelander, though I still think the eyelander needs a nerf. I remember in a balance server the eyelander still had the speed increase on heads, but increase shield recharge time, making you rely more on your base speed increase than having 2 sources of speed.
Demoman does not need a second sword that punishes him for holding a sword.
third?
@@artifactUwell it's an axe but yeah
@@lambsauce5312 that doesnt matter
Remember when the Persian Persuader used to give you health for every ammo box you picked up
Based mechanic, would be more used probably
candy cane but better
I like the current iteration a bit more- good for when you just watched a Solarlight video and want to mix some more charges in for when you miss the trimp. Also loud screaming fast man = fun; more charges per second is more better.
Maybe another sister-weapon that’s basically just the old one like how Escape Plan got split.
old persuader was goated in arena
I genuinely think the Loch-N-Load should have a blast radius increase since you only get the explosions on directs and thus should be rewarded for getting them
I think it does that already, I've gotten kills with it while hitting someone else plenty of times, they've always been standing right next to each other tho so I think it's small
Great blue: "So how do we let the caber be a instant delete button without allowing demos to repeatly dive and oneshot the enemy medic every life"
The market gardener:
MG at least requires you to land your jump, the theoretical 1st swing caber just means "reach melee with a medic"
Not that either are particularly fun but MG has at least an ankle high kerb labelled "barrier to entry"
Why is the Persian Persuader here? It's by far one of the best swords Demoknight can utilize. Like, if the Eyelander didn't exist as it is, it would be undeniably be the best.
Being able to gain the benefit of full charge on kill of the tide turner while still keeping crit kills and stronger resistances of the other two shields and not needing to wait for a recharge by picking up ammo packs alleviates one of Demoknight's weaknesses: down time. If the player misses or even succeeds with their charge, they're essentially left needing to wait to play the game. This is usually balanced out by other bonuses, like health on kill, more charge duration, etc.. The Persian Persuader does the opposite. It's rewards on kill aren't as flashy as the other swords, but that's to compensate for its lower risk, allowing Demonkight to actually play the game against other classes outside of Medieval Mode.
To draw out the video
it wouldnt undeniably be the best, it would be a side grade.
Weapon balances in tf2 have always been a strange case to me. On one hand, some weapons are peak game design that reward mechanical skill or provide interesting alternative ways to play a class. But on the other hand,
some people doesn't have mechanical skill like this blue goose
for the record i literally only just saw this comment
It's likely that there is little testing done for the weapons overall in different uses
@@champagnesupernova1839 No you stole it
@@LowProfile0247 uh, no. multiple people can come up with the same joke when it's something as obvious as this.
I think a good idea would be getting feedback from a couple of people that play the class you are reworking as their knowledge would provide good insight and could bring up points you might not have thought of
tru
Yeah, but you should bare in mind that people have a positivity bias, where they're less likely to address brokenly op things if it's overpowered-ness is in their favor, which is why I'd suggest getting people that play the same class, _and also_ the class that gets hard countered by it, so you can weigh their respective values for a fair common ground, to avoid echo-chambering or "Ah no the Iron Bomber's like totally underpowered lmao"
@@commodorex True.
Sometimes I'm very glad that Valve doesn't directly take weapon rebalance ideas from the community.
Persuader change #1 essentially took one of Full Demoknight's best multi-kill swords in the game (on top of a decent hybrid mobility weapon if you were willing to use melee more often) and gutted it in favor of... a minor speed boost while active? You reduced the refill on kill from 70% to 50, since you removed the ammo mechanic. This is a clear nerf, and that's ignoring the *actual downsides* you put on there. If you want a Hybrid Demoknight sword that grants better mobility and refill on kill, just equip the Claidheamh Mor with the Tide Turner. It's not like that weapon needs any changes either, it's already serving that role just fine. If you want a weapon that gives stock Demomen more mobility, this should be a new weapon.
Remember the Tough Break change, which gutted the Claidheamh Mor? This Persuader change reminds me of that. How did you even come up with this?
As for the second design, it would once again be better as a new weapon entirely, and I don't agree with removing a perfectly fine weapon from the game. In fact, that goes for pretty much all of your Demoknight changes besides the Caber and Skullcutter. If you want my honest feedback, I'd say you should present these ideas as original weapon designs, rather than rebalances. Especially since you tossed in a bunch of decent unlocks into a "bad weapons" video. Either for the sake of padding content, or because you don't have solid takes yourself.
It's okay to not be good at something, I'm not putting you at fault for that. Just... don't be surprised when you inevitably get something wrong and get promptly criticized for it
i agree, the persian persuader is currently okay, however it definitely rings wrong to me that the downside can be FULLY bypassed by equiping different tool (somewhat making it a "straight" upgrade), on top of reducing potential option by making them really crippling if you decide to go against them, they should be at least made manageable, but also affect you if you decide to go full demoknight, here's my proposition
-Persian Persuader
Reduced charge duration by 20% (1.5-->1.2, charge crits and mini-crits work the same way)
primary/secondary ammo downside reduced by 30% (80%-->50%, stock ammo: 3-->8|5-->12)
now you can possibly play hybrid with it, doesn't give you just upside if you decide to go full, on top of that it's more of a sidegrade then a nerf, you get to charge more often , get crit hits faster and be more reactive with slower turning shield. You get more option and it demarks itself from other weapon, i would see this as a positive
The legend himself
omg demoknight tf2
He's kind of mocking people for valid feedback he cites as "WOAH FUNNY DOPAMINE GUN" in the pinned comment.
_Sigh..._
Edit: He removed the pinned comment and replaced it with another.
Panic Attack moment
Added a fix to the panic attack that completely changed it into a new weapon, leaving the original cool idea into the dust.
13:30 It already exist in game, but not for Demo.
The Samurai robots of MVM, while they seem to use a normal splendid screen, their shield is apparently a diferent weapon that allows those kind of vertical free movement charges.
So give it that stat so you can samurai demo across the map.
They don't use a different weapon.
They have an attribute that allows them to jump automatically while another attribute gives them an extended charge and a damage bonus.
they actually just have a lot of jump height and are restricted to charging in mid-air, they have an ai attribute that makes them randomly jump
@@StilvurBee I don't think its random considering they home in on players.
@@mariustan9275 it might be on a timer, i've never messed with the attribute but i do know their charge recharges way faster than how often they actually charge in-game
I definitely want the Lock 'n Load to have only two shots.
- Weapon has 2 barrels
- Weapon has a clip size of 3
Wtf Valve?
@@Spanishdog17 To be fair, it did originally only have a clip size of 2 and they didn't bother to update the model.
That's also why the Grenade Launcher has 6 slots in the model despite having a clip of 4.
Honestly, at this point I'd like the Iron Bomber model to be Stock to fit the 4 clip, rework the Loch-n-Load so it goes back to 2 clips and rework the Iron Bomber (now with the Stock model) to have a clip of 6.
just update the model to have three barrels, if you make it a two shot loch then it is going to suck against fighting sentries
@@silverdededestruction2197 Just slightly buff the damage again, then.
@@NonApplicable1983 they buff the damage against players then people are gonna complain about it being bullshit no skill braindead. I don't want to deal with that, I'll take needing more technical skill to fight than having to deal with enemies calling the loch and load a crutch if it ever gets a damage buff to compensate for returning it back to two pipes
Making the Caber into a desperation weapon might work. Having it do the same or even reduced damage at full health in return for slowly ramping up damage bellow half might work. Demo can still potentially pull off some important moves with a caber in exchange for his own life, but a nearly dead demo running around with his melee out would be a pretty easy issue for pretty much every class to deal with.
Sticky bomb jumping demons might be able to pull some shenanigans off with it, but setting up a situation in which said demo will be bellow half health after a jump and with enough damage taken the ramp up would be meaningful would be a big asked of that demo.
Dude, you just made a Demo Market Gardener.
I like that idea.
The Caber does X amount of damage, if Demoman's health is below X, it does +50% or something. Basically, if it's going to kill you, it does more damage.
There's still the problem where you can just damage yourself by sticky jumping in to alakablooie the medic or an entire gang of fellas
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 I mean, if you can Rocket Jump into a Medic and Market Garden him, why should you be able to do it with the Caber? If you make part of the threshold the initial melee hit, it’ll one shot the Medic but not necessarily everyone around him.
@@johncronk8867 Caber used to do that, it was nerfed because medics were basically useless if the demo decided to focus him with the caber. Making it a last resort weapon is a better idea.
Wouldn't the shotgun lock and load be completely busted on hybird knight? You can charge into someone's face with great mobility(with the wheel) and burst them down even if they aren't in your sword range.
Reminds me of a technique I tried and failed to make work: play hybrid knight, charge with your grenade launcher out, pipe your target down as you’re charging at them. Maybe that would work with this tweaked Loch and Load, because it really just doesn’t at the moment.
i think this episode had much worse ideas than the Scout's
you said the second Loose Cannon idea would be more of a "crowd control weapon"... but Demo already has Sticky Bombs? the idea of having a 1 shot grenade launcher that demands skill is nice. your first suggestion was more interesting in my opinion
the Claymore is super janky. i don't think there should be a sword dedicated for hybrid knight. i think hybrid knight is supposed to feel clunky because you shouldn't have the toolkit of both Demoman and Demoknight without some drawback (in this case, deploy speed).
i honestly thing that loose cannon by itself is good for crowd control. u can time when it detonates and it pierces enemies.
i agree these ideas are worse than scouts.
you already lose stickybombs to play hybridknight so i think a sword specifically for hybridknight is fine. infact saying that hybridknight is supposed to feel clunky is a blatant lie since the chargin targe & eyelander predate the wee booties so hybridknight was added before full demoknight
For when you get to sniper, i hope you can give some of his backpacks team synergy, such as the cozy camper acting as a lvl 1 dispenser heal to nearby teammates. Something to make the sniper more collaborative with medics and engineers is what the class really needs instead of being the “lone wolf” character he is now.
it's an odd idea, but i kinda like it. As long as the CC regen doesn't stack with other CC users
Yes let’s have the class that’s countered by team coordination have more reason to play by his team and never be stabbed / ran at again I agree
This is why I like playing huntsman + jarate, pretty fun
On one hand, I kinda like it. On the other, a big reason why he’s such a lone wolf class is because he’s not meant to be near his team in the first place. Jarate throws a wrench into that logic, sure, but you can use Jarate without being with the team.
The cozy camper is a good example for this effect. For starters, I doubt Great Blue will discuss it since I think it’s the most used of the backpacks; he still might, but I don’t see it as underrated or underpowered. That aside, though, let’s look at your tweak, making it a wearable lvl 1 dispenser. I honestly do like that, but again, sniper’s not really supposed to be in the thick of it where that would actually benefit his team. So the only teammates getting the buff are fellow snipers, assuming they didn’t pick different spots to snipe from. At its most useful, this would just make snipers harder to deal with, without helping the rest of his team that much.
All that said, the other two backpacks, that absolutely do need reworks, have a lot more room to add team support, so long as you keep in mind that the sniper isn’t often with the team. For example, the Razorback, I just thought of this: though only stab attempts will stun the spy, any back attack will break the shield, BUT a broken shield gives the team wallhacks on that spy for a few seconds. Might be a bit much, spy has enough to deal with as it is, but it’s a starting point for a Razorback that isn’t completely invalidated by just shooting the sniper, and it helps the team by making it easier for them to take the spy out.
@@isenokami7810 I feel fairly confident in saying that making the CC a mini-dispenser would encourage the team to come to the sniper, rather than the other way around. Any place you might put a dispenser is probably already a decent place for a sniper to peek from, no? So I feel the problem is less "sniper doesn't want this and his team won't really care," and more 'now Sniper can oneshot you AND keep his team alive!" which is just... obnoxious and kinda unfair. You'd need to change other things about Sniper for it to be reasonable, which maybe those changes would need to happen anyways for the health of the class, but we're only talking about weapon reworks here.
Why not have Double Donk also pierce resistances as well? It would still be underpowered, but combined with reduced self damage, it could at least see occasional serious usage.
listen to this guy, he knows his shit
Unless I'm missing something, he didn't cover the loose cannon. Unless this is a re-upload or something.
@@Revan_The_Knight he removed it cause the changes sucked.
All the cannon needs is to fix that bug where my cannonball bounces off instead of going through sometimes. It is so annoying to lose a donk cause your cannonball went backward.
@30thCenturyFish Makes sense.
the lochnload being more like the soda popper would be an insanely fun and fitting change
yeah!
I can't wait to see your take on medic weapons in this series. the stock syringe gun and the blutsauger are severely outclassed by the crossbow, so I'd love to see how you can balance them.
Not even a shoutout to the Overdose god damn
@@daniellemurnett2534 weapon is so incredibly mediocre the poster( and like 70% of the player base forgot of it lmao
Bro he'd probably nerf the hell out of the Crossbow
@@ScorbunnyProductionsYT honestly, i wouldn't mind a crossbow nerf at all, maybe reduce the ammo count to about 12, so that every shot counts and you can't spam, plus no self-healing to make survivability harder
@@ScorbunnyProductionsYT he specifically states in the rules that he plans and buff bad weapons, not nerf good ones
Quick little issue with the pain train rework.
Although I am *VERY* inexperienced with the hammer editor, I do know that the specific way capping the intel, the point, or pushing the payload works is with a specific brush that will function no matter where you are, just as long as you’re touching it, so it would cause issues and need a LOT of reworks on a LOT of maps.
Valve could change the definition of what "touching it" really means, give it a new hitbox on the player that has the same size as the old one but can be bigger.
Here's my Loose Cannon fix recommendation: Give it the hitbox buff it was intended to have but was instead given to the Iron Bomber due to a mixup.
That's not true, that's a false rumour
@@transorm987
It definitely IS true. There was a thread two years ago showing a screenshot of the visualized hitboxes. I'll post a link in another comment, if you don't see it it means that RUclips auto-marked it as spam.
@@transorm987 Ok, yeah, RUclips auto-deleted the link. So I'll do this instead.
Look up "iron bomber hitbox visualisation" on r/tf2. That's the title of the post, it shows a screenshot of a stock pill, a loose cannon cannonball, and an iron bomber pill with hitboxes shown. The hitbox for the iron bomber pill is massively oversized compared to the actual model, but is perfectly scaled for the loose cannon's cannonball. Meanwhile, both the stock pill and the cannonball have the same hitbox, which is scaled decently well for stock _and the iron bomber pill_ but is massively undersized for the cannonball.
@VestedUTuber I'm well aware. They weren't swapped though, it's another issue entirely. I should point out that further tests indicate that screenshot isn't entirely accurate
@@transorm987 shounic has a video about this issue
The first loose cannon rework is alright, but the second one is awful. Half the reason people use the weapon is because of how amusing it is and removing the double donk removes its charm. Also the stats are just awful. 1 shot launcher with really ineffective benefits? No thanks.
A big problem I have with your ideas is that a lot of the weapons aren't being fixed, they're being made into a new weapon
unfortunately some weapons just don't work or serve a niche that simply isn't needed or is already done better, hence why some of these are functionally fine but just not used
*Gun Mettle/Meet your Match updates in a nutshell*
Unfortunately that's what has to be done for some of them. That's also what Valve does anyways though. Simple number tweaks isn't always an option, especially for the weakest or most unusual weapons.
and then of course there's the persuader, which was already fine to begin with and a not so rare pick among experienced demoknights. The ammo box thing means that when you walk over someone's corpse you get half your charge back. The whole reason for using the persuader is so that you simply do not run out of charge, not necessarily just for extra mobility. While I think the second concept is decent, the damage vulnerability makes it so that it takes one less melee swing to kill a full demoknight using it. Honestly, I feel like those stats might fit claid better since it already has the vuln and extra mobility on your charges.
I think the problem is that he aims to give all weapons equal usage. It's fine to have situational or loadout specific weapons like the Persian Persuader.
It's weird for me the forgotten random damage mechanic after the 2015 update, it was up to you how much damage you dealt to the enemy
Didn't do the series in order
L+ratio+a literal heron+Weapon Reskins in TF2 have always seemed like a strange case to me. On one hand if you like how a weapon works but hate how it looks it's nice to have another option to choose from. But on the other hand, reskins usually look like they would function differently from their counterpart. And I've always thought it would be neat if cool looking weapons like the maul had more of an identity than "Its the Homewrecker but for rich people" So I took a large number of weapon reskins currently available in the game and gave them their own set of stats ranging from "Slightly modified sidegrade to the original" to "Completely new weapon idea that's not balanced at all but a ton of fun"+consistently forgets to take schizophrenia meds at the same time to play MvM+cope+seethe+mald+less than 150k subs
(I'm just kidding, I love all of your videos and wish you the best of luck in all of your future endeavors)(also please bring back x10 tier lists)
Good video! I enjoyed your unique takes on all of the weapons and appreciate that you thought outside the box for most of them.
Gonna jump on the Loose Cannon train here and say that I think your first change idea was going the right direction, but how I'd change it would be to reduce the fuse time of the cannonball on hit. This would make the timing on double donks far more lenient as the projectile would explode much faster on a successful first hit, and it'd change the weapon in a way that solely makes it more fun to use and more viable alongside stock. I'd also make it that the cannonball's *explosion* is what has all the knockback to still allow silly fall damage kills.
Really liked this video! Keep up the good work!
Would the pain train change even be possible? I was under the impression that the size of capture points/briefcases was a map thing.
The self-damage change is honestly the only thing I would do for the Loose Cannon, just to promote a more hybrid play style if you don’t have a Stickybomb Launcher.
That, and probably a hitbox increase to match the cannonball, but even that is slightly minor.
Im not surprised by all the comments regarding the loose cannon lmao
If you think about it, the pain train, as it is, is a straight upgrade in DeGroot keep
Ehhhhhhh, Techchnicallly, the Huntsthman arrows and crossbow shoths both count as bullet damage, so it's not completely uh especially a heteronormative change-uh.
The loose cannon needs no change.
based
Well, the reduced self damage would be nice.
Wrong. It might not need the changes offered here but it sure could do with some.
@@doubledee8677I feel like the projectile speed actually messes with how it's aimed. If they have the projectile speed lowered but the fuse time increased, it could go the same distance but be the same, reliable speed.
While I loved all of the changes you proposed (especially the airborne persuader that sounds AMAZING) I really disagreed with your philosophy on changing the loose cannon, your proposals were much too “This weapon needs a complete rework in order to match up with stock better” this is a really one sided look on the weapon, especially because the weapon isn’t even bad, it’s just too specialized into a gimmicky nature.
I think if you wanted to change the loose cannon you would want to change it to be more consistent overall, double donks are by nature gimmicky and using the weapon can feel frustrating if you’re not used to it, even in my case where I use the loose cannon MUCH more than stock I can agree that there are way too many times where I’ll say to myself “Man that should’ve been a double donk” or “man I feel like I wouldve easily killed that guy using stock” but I definitely don’t think that the weapon needs a complete rework in order to specialize in a different aspect of the game, it’s fine where it is, and if you think it really needs a change, you should focus on just changing one small aspect of the weapon rather than completely reworking it.
fr though, the persian persuader is also fine by the way, but i do love the rework. just make a new weapon like that instead of changing it
If the Loose Cannon could use any buffs, I would say it just needs a little more consistency. The projectile LOOKS huge, but it has the same hotbox as stock. I think making the hitbox bigger would be a good change, since the player is already precisely timing their shots, aiming a slower projectile, and sacrificing fire rate for damage. Making the hotbox the size of the projectile would be way too much, but shrinking the projectile and increasing the hitbox so they line up would make it a little more consistent and a little more intuitive.
@@calsalitra4689 That was exactly what I was thinking when I commented, it doesn’t need a buff, and it especially doesn’t need a rework, but it could absolutely use a change to it’s overall consistency. How this would be done I’m not entirely sure, I think it’s knockback is perfectly justified, I don’t think that should be changed as knocking away an Ubered player is a huge draw of the weapon, but doing that can be inconsistent as well. It’s and a weird state, which is why I honestly think it shouldn’t be tweaked.
they just need to fix that glitch where the balls bounce off of enemies instead of going through.
The ullapool caber should get the same unique trait as the rainblower taunt -> dealing damages Split amongs all the players hit. Like let's say it does 65 melee damage + 150 explosion damage.
If you hit 1 person it does 65 to the guy + 150. If there are 3 people in explosion range, you deal 65 + 50 to the guy hit and 50 explosive to the 2 others.
You take 50% of the explosive damage taken by enemies (so 75 if there is one dude, 25 if there is 3, etc...).
Do that, tweaks the explosion damage numbers, give a 45s cooldown on the explosion, and make the taunt throwing the grenade as an arc like the halloween bat spell allowing for ranged boom.
Keep deploy + swing speed penality and no random crits.
cool buff idea you got there
but i would not want to loose the potential to become a nuke that can kill evrything with a crit
Hm if explosion is set to 200, it means that a Crit caber can OS 2 heavies. Or 4 medics. The best part is that you fully remove explosion falloff so enemies don't take random BS amount of damage because you didn't aimed at their feet, and the self-damage is making some more sense and is less punishing for Big plays with multiple players, and more punishing for solo picking medics. And it's less unfair to get focused down as Medic by those as you get some counterplay (being stack with your mates) and allow counter-counterplay (as demo has better use of it's other explosive weapons if all the enemies pack up to get ready for a caber charge).
good idea
A major issue with the Caber(which you addressed in your 1st rework idea) is that it is currently the ONLY weapon in the game where you have to visit a resupply locker to rearm.
Weapon balance in TF2 has always been a strange case to me,
why did you say the exact same comment as me 30 mins ago
@@LowProfile0247 why would he not????
Weapon balance in TF2 has always been a strange case to me,
@@LowProfile0247 why did you say the exact same comment as me 30 mins ago
@@CricetoFunni why would he not????
Another idea for the Caber:
It's a stick-grenade. Why not allow it to be used as what it is designed after and make it THROWABLE, and explode? Sure, it then leaves you without much to bonk people in the face with, but that's the trade-off you get for a very neat if situational ranged attack.
A sober person would throw it...
Yes that'd kinda remove the entire joke of the weapon. A sane/sober person would throw it as a grenade but Demoman uses it as a melee weapon
@@garrettbates9124 Nothing stopping you from still using it as a club, maybe even keep it as it is right now - but as alternative attack, throw it for a nice boom.
Idea: If you have boots or a shield, you use it as a melee. If you don't have either, you use it as a grenade and then have to use your fists (which would have a slower attack speed and so 30 damage)
@@cookiecraze1310 ehhhhh one of the main draws of the caber is to have a melee that isnt focused purely on demoknight
Many of your major reworks would simply function better as new weapons ngl. Personally I do not believe in straying from the core design of a weapon like the Loose Cannon or Persuader, and would only suggest major reworks as a return to a weapon's previous better state.
Most of your general reworks are much more palatable however, like the Loch.
Well we know valve isn't adding new weapons anytime soon.
What if, And hear me out, we made the caber a market gardener. If we do this, we will most likely have to lower the damage a bit to make this more consistent but instead we make it mini crit while airborne by explosions. So if we set it’s base damage to 105 on explosion, we can make it mini crit, doing 158 damage. Also, it should probably be able to crit in the first place cause the caber can’t do that with its explosion (for some reason). What do you think?
I don't think ANYONE asked for the loose cannon to be changed, or even buffed. We all love it exactly as it is, keep your filthy rework 2 away from it.
Also, a suggestion for the caber is to give it a very sizeable damage bonus if the demo is below 70 health or something (aka, ultimate suicide bomber)
good and real opinion
No "we" don't. I want a buff.
I love the Loose Cannon, whenever I play Demo it's what I use as my actual primary weapon (sticky spamming is for apes), but there's no getting around the fact that it is often decidedly underwhelming:
The incredibly low damage means that in a lot of cases you can directly hit an enemy and do about 30-50 damage at best, where you would be doing up to 100 damage with the other grenade launchers - 2 direct hits often isn't even enough to kill a Scout, whereas you'd obliterate everything shy of a Heavy, Battalion's Backup Soldier or overhealed classes using another grenade launcher.
The knockback often serves as a detriment instead of an upside, shunting enemy players out of your now drastically reduced range....
So reduced in fact that you're basically neutered with it against sentries (even mini sentries are a massive pain to destroy with it) or long-range players like Sniper.
Yeah, you can land a double-donk and hit for 120-150 damage if you time it perfectly, but unless you're a god-tier player that can be pretty rare, oftentimes your enemy can make their escape on low health. That's provided you're not killed in the extremely lengthy charge up time to prepare said perfect donk.
I use the Loose Cannon because it's a fun and engaging weapon. It is absolutely not an effective one though.
YES. I want to suicide bomb demo. So the idea is like the equalizer, it's damage increase th eless health you have and you cna suicide kill with it?
@@mariustan9275 I was more thinking the Shahanshah
@@Moss_Dude what about both. we just give it the equalizer effect and then add +25% damage from shahansha because why the fuck not lol
Just make the caber does the 100 explosive damage again but with no extra damage from base melee hit.
Give it 2 tier of Market Gardener effect base on the state of the weapon.
When you still have the explosive charge. It's a mini crit.
When you don't have the explosive charge. It's a full critical.
So we can give the demo a Market Gardener.
*be beep*
WEEEEEEEEE
*explosion*
I always saw the persuader as a sword for spamming charges, so I wish that it could somehow make shield bashing easier and you could weave it into combat more
I do like charge spamming; PP is probably my favorite sword.
Increasing the bash damage would be fun. Could even make the charge a bit faster to justify it-maybe even add a little knockback to the bashed personnel so you really feel like you just slammed some scout into the stratosphere.
Could also buff the shield-charge crit window ti be longer so you can wombo combo medics more easily; the Double Donk of melees
Might need some more nerfs to balance it as would be too good at that point.
As a caber knight main all you need to do is give it random crits, but I would love the regenerate
DO NOT give it rng, regenerate is good enough.
This. A random crit is all i need, the caber should be a mutual mutual assured destruction weapon for mad people.
At 7:53 I think the idea of giving stock melees the Gunslinger's "third successful hit in a row always crits" should instead be given to all melees. Then, whenever a melee weapon has "no random critical hits" it would instead have "no combo critical hits". Since random crits are most impactful on melee weapons, giving them a version of it if random crits are removed should keep that aspect of them.
For other weapons, I don't think a major change would be necessary. Most often, when a weapon other than melee crits, it makes the interaction less fun, at least for the one who receives the crit. So simply removing random crits would ultimately be fine.
Fun fact about the Scotsman's Skullcutter: it's legitimately Demo's best tank-busting option in Mann vs. Machine. No, seriously, even without crit-on-kill. Boosted-damage random crits are already enough to outclass the sluggish grenade and stickybomb launcher.
True for every class right? Melee is king for tank busting sans maybe the Engineer’s point-blank Widow Maker
sniper with cleaner's carbine/bushwacka is surprisingly effective and a heavy using steak sandvich/warrior's spirit also works quite well but is less common
@@DoABarrelRol1l doesn't Pyro deal double damage to the tank with their flamethrowers if they hit a sweet spot or smthn
@@azurabbit12 Yeah I recently saw a video on that actually- not sure if it counts as an exploit but I suppose pyro's pretty good with that then too.
One thing I’d add to your Pain Train idea: On top of the doubled capture range and movement speed while capturing for offense, if you’re playing defense, all of the effects apply when you’re blocking the objective (Standing on the point or near the cart), and you don’t need to be blocking someone actively trying to cap, just standing near the objective in general will count, but the damage vulnerability will also apply on top of you being a sitting duck on the objective, so now it actually has a use for defense
The console version of the RUclips app has made this video unwatchable. The Loose Cannon section was previously removed, but for some unknown reason, the audio from that section actually persists on the console version, but not the visuals. Great Blue starts talking about the Loose Cannon in the bottle section, and from that point forward, nothing he says matches what the video is showing. You can probably try it yourself if you have the app on Xbox (what I used), Switch, Playstation, or even an app on your TV, the glitch probably persists as they all use the same version.
I wouldn't call the Persian Persuader "bad" more than overshadowed by its brother the eyelander
Oh wow something like Celeste's Dash as a Demoman weapon ability with the Persuader is just an interesting thought. I'd be down for that. Crazy movement tech would be pretty cool. Combine that with source movement tech you can make some crazy movement with that.
the loose cannon just need a slight demage buff, the fact that the double dong is hard if the fun of it, and remove it is just aweful, the weapon is really good at where it is today
Honestly agree
I don't really see it needing real changes
It's concept id very cool, Its rewarding and the knockback/Overload mechanics allow for some fun use cases
Its a good sidegrade, as what non stock should be!
Honestly if the problem was dps then why not just make the weapon faster? A bit faster projectiles and a bit shorter fuse would easily serve the same purpose hopefully without making the weapon op.
i think its 100% fine tbh
hey great blue what kind of drugs did you take while thinking of the rebalance concepts in this video? i am very interested about that
You know, the more I play this game, the more I feel random crits are not nearly the problem so many people say it is. I think the only reason why people complain about random crits is because Valve's competitive mode sucked.
I feel like random crits is a love/hate situation for TF2. If they actually removed it officially then i'm 99% sure that people would ask for it to come back because "It makes the game chaotic and fun!" n such.
I've never heard anyone besides you associate the dislike of random crits with valve's competitive mode lol.
I think having the loose cannon work more like the Fighting Lion from Destiny 2 would be awesome. Having grenades that fire on click/hold and remote detonation on click release. It could not explode if it hits but knockback so it could still doubledonk. In exchange, you basically have to watch your target and stand there not attacking until your grenade either hits its mark or you detonate it so you can fire another
“But because of how limiting charging itself is”
Solar light making an hour long video explaining everything charging can do: And I took that personally.
Okay. From the title of the series I would NEVER expect to see fuckin' Loch-n-Load or Loose Cannon.
the loch isnt that good
The pain train should be given to pyro as well
Change my mind
actually kinda true
give it to every class tbh
The first loch n' load rework is a super good way to make it more viable compared to stock & the iron bomber while still maintaining the core concept that made it good in the first place. Stellar video
For Claidheamn Mor i have an even better idea for hybrid knight. What if we give it the Frontier justice Treatment and make it so every kill you get with the sword gives you One primary minicrit?
A third rework idea for the caber: have it do bleed damage after it explodes.
Finally a sequel thank you great blue
Agreeing with everyone in the comments that the Loose Cannon changes don't feel right. Everyone who uses the Loose Cannon loves how it functions, it has it's audience of people who use it and people who can use it effectively, therefore I don't think it would need any changes. Sure a buff for jumping would be nice but it doesn't feel warranted at all as well as a rework or a nerf.
Cant wait for Engies Episode which is just Fixing the Pomson
Man why are weapons that can absolutely destroy you something bad?
God forbid people develop the spatial awareness to see the demoman flying to hit them with the caber, or notice that he has the loose cannon equipped.
The issue with the caber is being able to use it with the stickybomb launcher and fly across the map at mach 3 to pick a medic off.
It basically means that if your team has no pyro or has a pyro that's not constantly staring at the sky instead of contributing to the fight, you can instantly lose your medic at any time with basically no counterplay.
The caber with a shield is perfectly fine and it's just a skill issue if you're constantly getting picked off by one. But with the sticky jumper it becomes a free pick on any light class at any time on any map that isn't completely indoors.
@@MistaHoward
that already happens in the exact same circumstance except its a little more annoying because the demo has to hit the medic twice (which he will probably)
things that help: the medic looking up and dodging constantly, sentries, pyro (that can listen to demo falling or see the meteor coming), snipers looking up, anyone thats on ground knowing to hit the demo before he hits the medic...
all of that already applies, and they dont even have to do anything about it because the demo gets fall damage and explosion damage lol
@@MistaHoward Ah so the problem is someone that if not noticed by the rest of the team could jsut one shot a medic? Ah I ge tit now. Well, good thing valve never amde a weapon that would grant the user a significant damage boost for being mid air, or worse yet, make soem sort of class that can shutdown any player if its not dealt with by the team.
Airblasting isn't the only way to stop a flying demo, hell I'd go out and asy every class can, even the light classes themselves can by adding it to the list of "things that really want me dead", by the side of spies and snipers. This all really jsut feels like excusing players lack of care. ANd it is without entering ont he whole topic of how (personally) "unfun to play against" is just a bullshit term.
@@ThrashRats You clearly don't really understand how mobile the dticky jumper can make someone.
People have already stated the reasons why the loose cannon and Persian Persuader reworks don't fit but one I wanted to bring up for the skull cutter specifically in a no random crit environment. What if it has the three hit crit function but instead of three it becomes two hits. Downsides would have to be thought about for how you would balance something like that but it could be interesting.
Was just bingeing great blue Glad to see a new upload
Claidhemor or whatever you write it just needs the damage vulnerability removed. Not having random crits as demo is already enough of a pain, not to mention the holster/deploy penalty. Maybe even increase said penalty, so it isn't a straight upgrade to stock on Random Crits Disabled servers.
i dont think it should have the vulnerability removed, the 0.5 second longer charge is already good.
I don’t even like using The Loose Cannon but your own shitty design choices would just leave it as a worse Soldier Rocket Launcher with a single shot lol
Weapon balance, Weapon balance have always seemed like a weird case to me from one hand....
.... if you like how a Weapon look and not how it plays meming around with it but from the other hand balance.
I personally think the persian persuader is fine how it is. It's perfect for a full demoknight loadout because if you're using the booties, it grants you almost limitless charge at no cost.
For the caber, nerf the sticky jumper by making explosive airborne demos take mini crits when sticky jumper is equipped, and revert the caber changes while nerfing swing speed or while caber is deployed take more knockback (hit scan stops you midair)
For the Eviction Notice you should replace the 'On Hit: Gain a speed boost & +15% faster move speed on wearer' stats with a 'On Hit: Bleed for 5 seconds' stat, and replace the 'Maximum health is drained while item is active' with a 'No random/triple hit critical hits' stat.
Not sure if I said this on the previous video but I am against and dislike changes that revolve around the preconception that the game needs to be competitively balanced and not casually balanced. The example you use for the caber "not being able to one shot people by flying through the air" . While I understand how this can be annoying to some, the fact of the matter is that it's not that big of a deal. In the past this required demo to constantly go back to spawn to refill and while I understand his sticky jumping mobility is incredible and on some maps he can do it quickly, it still takes him time to do it and isn't just freely jumping around, like a market gardening soldier per se, and one shotting most classes.
I think that the philosophy should stay casual and fun the way TF2 was meant to be played, and if that philosophy is removed TF2 will lose its charm. Which is also why I'm an advocate for random crits. It's a video game, who cares. It sucks sometimes but it always comes back around and it adds to the humour of the game. Games are supposed to be fun. Even the Loose cannon suffered from this a little bit.
i agree with everything you said except random crits, theyre unfair & unfun
Ok, so in my opinion, I think the way these weapons are balanced is more central to competitive mode. Sure, the melee 3-hit-crit system may sound good, but if your hitting a class up close 2 times, the third one is going to kill anyways except for classes that you shouldn't be meleeing anyways. The other problem Im finding is that the craziness of some weapons is being kind of covered up, like the claymore's charge time increase, some people love doing larger trimps. (This was a lesser point, and I still agree with most of the changes, especially the pain train {you did awesome on that one [three layers in, but I digress]}) Anyways, awesome video, just some nitpicks and opinions that I had.
i feel that like a propeller demo shield would actually fill that niche well. no shield bash and only mini crits but the vertically mobility and slightly faster recharge would open up so many flank routes
That loose cannon idea is so bad lol, the grenade launcher is already an excellent crowd control tool, not even mentioning stickies. And the Persian persuader is also not great, a lot more boring than the one we have now Great video though, despite the loose cannon idea not being my favorite
hi I have nearly 5k hours in TF2 with a lot of those on Demo so I wanna make notes as I watch
- I really like the idea of giving the LnL a piercing effect but I worry that it'd be toooo much of nerf to the Vaccinator. Vac medics are annoying as fuck but it seems like just switching to the Loch n Load would make Vac ubers worse than the Quick Fix's. I think it's something worth testing out though.
- I've used the Loose Cannon a lot and I agree with your reasoning for why it's currently lacking. But your reworks don't really fix it's issues. For one the Double Donk HAS to stay. Yes it's less effective than landing multiple grenades in a row but it's a core part of the weapon's entire identity. Instead of removing it double donks should be buffed. How? Well in the video itself you can see how the damage is inconsistent. Even with a double donk there are times you're dealing less than 125 because the target was too far out of the cannonball's explosive radius.
A (probably) easy fix would be to give double donk explosions full splash damage with zero damage dropoff. But only on targets who get donk'd (or maybe minicrits as a whole for it as a general buff, and against buildings too because minis should die in one grenade cmon now).
Reducing the knockback also shouldn't be attempted either as it's a) the main utility of the weapon and b) already inconsistent. Getting hit by a cannonball either sends you to the moon, freezes you in place, and anything in between. If it's possible to make it's knockback more consistent without making it toxic to deal with that would also be a good QoL buff. At the very least fix the splash damage so you can reliably kill light classes. We can also give it a self damage reduction too because that's fun.
- I like the first caber rework :)
- The Persian Persuader is weird. I too thought the weapon needed some work but when I suggested it could use a buff on reddit (yeah i know "lol reddit") SolarLight himself came in and defended the weapon. And while I have a lot of experience with demoman my demoknight skills leave a lot to be desired. So when THE demoknight main (or at least the most well known) comes in and says that the Persian Persuader is "the second best full demoknight sword" you can't really ignore that. I still think the sword could use something because it's definitely under-used (and yes I do think that's an issue even if others don't) but it shouldn't be a huge buff or rework. A small change to help give it more synergy with it's matching shield the Splendid Screen could be just what it needs while keeping it relatively the same. Give the PP the same head collecting mechanic as the Eyelander but just for the shield bash damage increase. Nerf the Eyelander by taking away a small part of it's snowball effect or just copy/paste it onto the Persian's, whichever. I think spreading the Eyelander's strength by removing that stat and putting it on something else would help diversify loadouts a bit more instead of the Eyelander being far and away the best sword for all occasions. Or it'd ruin the subclass completely who knows lol
- I think the ClaidMor is fine but the little buff you suggested would be nice to have.
- As a Quickie fan I'd be very okay with small buffs.
- I really don't think the Pain Train needs all those changes. I think weapons that provide small situational upsides are fine. Honestly the only change I'd like to see made for the Pain Train would be to give it to Pyro like originally intended. He could probably make more use out of it than Soldier at least.
Final thoughts: give Demo the Gunboats, enough time has passed that nobody should care about the WAR! update anymore. And while we're at it give him the Manntreads (a weapon he'd probably have MUCH more use out of than Soldier) and the Market Gardner.
The loose cannon already got no fall off on donk explosions, its the DIRECT hit that has fall off
@@steambot3000 Other way around.
i agree with everything you said except the persion persuader, a weapon being snowballing makes you play differantly than if it wasnt because you really dont wanna loose your bonuses. also id give the pain train to every class.
For later on in the series you should give the pyros melee the following change: 10% faster switch speed. While this change overlaps with the axetinguisher slightly the only real area that a melee could help it is an even faster burst of damage than it's current w+m1.
I thought it would be hilarious if, after you explode the caber, you could throw it as a projectile.
Can you fo medic next?
I wanna see what your going to do with the vacc and syring gunns and pretty much ever melee that isnt the ubersaw
The Vaccinator is incredibly powerful, just slept on by people who don't know how to use it effectively. Syringe guns on the other hand desperately need to be brought in line with the crossbow, although personally i'd think the crossbow needs to be brought down, while still preserving the fun design
@@spameron7575 the vaccinators power is why i want a rework for it, its so powerfull that its the only medigun used in comp(yea its valve comp but still), the shere powr of a juiced up heavy that is getting constint healing immun to crits and a resistens makes him bascily a walking wrangled sentry, i dont want a rework for it beacuase its bad, i want a rework for it beacuase its so unfun to fight.
this series is only supposed to buff bad weapons not nerf good ones
@@artifactU yeah which leaves everything except the vacc.
The 1st caber rework is fine. All we really wanted was a quicker deploy time and the ability to terrorize snipers again. No need to propose a 2nd rework. Sniper is already overpowered I think it's fine to let him get trolled by a few sticky jumping caber demos every now and then
gigabased
I think the 2nd rework was more for fun than anything else but I do agree that the first change is an overall solid one
Actually, my stats for the caber would be something like:
+Mini crits while wearer is sticky jumping
+Regenerates after 1 minute
-40% primary ammo
i'd make it from any explosive launching not just sticky jumping personally
i'd put it more of a regens after 30 second but otherwise ur completely right! 👍
loch-n-load buff
+50% direct damage
-50% clip size
-25% blast damage
projectiles explode on impact with surfaces
this is a skill weapon, you hit your shots, you can one shot scouts, medics, snipers, spies, engineers, and you 2 shot heavies, and overhealed demos pyros and soldiers
man really wants to ruin the most fun weapon in the game cause he doesn't really like using it himself
fr
weapon balance in TF2 has always seemed like a strange case to me
You seem like a strange case to me
what loose cannon really needs is: remove the stun lock from its knockback, change the ball to not flop around in the air (like how LNL doesnt flop) so that the knockback angles are consistent, make 0% charge balls have a fuse twice as long (without changing the timers for any other charge levels) so you can actually hit stuff further than 20 feet away, fix airblast so reflected canonballs can minicrit (currently they NEVER minicrit even if you reflect donk), and make airblast reset the fuse timer to be the same length as when demo shot it so reflecting it actually prevents it from instantly exploding in your face and gives you the chance to reflect donk against anyone that actually tries to use the weapon properly.
I love your content. It makes me remember the community does care!
SO BETA... nice video lol
TF2.
TF2.
TF2.
Heres the problem with that 45 second regen time for the caper. Yes thats nice to that you don't have to go back to spawn but 45 seconds is a long time and most people still will just go back to spawn to regen it. The timer would need to be shorter for it to be actually useful.
alright, time to rank these suggestions:
great proposals: (there are no changes that I'd even remotely consider great)
good proposals: loch-n-load
meh: pain train, quickiebomb launcher, scottish resistance, claidheamh mor
bad proposals: stock melee, scotman's skullcutter ("oh but isn't just a direct buff?" good guess but actually no. this skullcutter exists in a random-crit-less world which is the far bigger change to this weapon.)
trash proposals: ullapool caber (
Not a single thing is worth taking away my double donk dopamine
Removing double donks ... you have just theorised a murder in cold blood.
I feel the Pain Train doesn't need a change
as a Pain Train Knight main, I have seen the hidden potential that the Pain Train unleashes when on a CTF map, its downright op if you can control its unstable power. Its the most op Demo weapon and should've never been in this video
i want to have the scottish handshake (or whatever the square bottle is called) turned into a demoman market gardener because he needs one in my opinion