Catastrophic Cam/Lifter Failure Caught As It Happens - Chevy Rat Eats It's Valvetrain During Breakin
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- Опубликовано: 21 июл 2024
- Our buds at DD Speed shop are the latest victims of the widespread cam and lifter failure epidemic, but Dan was lucky enough to cut the engine off at the precise moment one of the lifters began to disintegrate. The witness marks on this lifter point to the exact cause of the problem on this engine.
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Sucks when it happens and I sure learned alot thought the process. UTG was super helpful and talked me off the ledge a couple of times haha. Hopefully these videos can same some people from the heart ache.
Yeah, roller time for me.
DD Speed Shop. I'm impressed at the work you do, I actually angry at Comp Cams since this happened. I don't think I'll ever use their products again because of the way they handled it.
dd speed shop dd speed shop dd speed shop?!
DD speed shop?
so glad you're whole engine wasn't ruined because of comp cam's quality failure.
I read an article about cam/lifter failures, it stated that some American name brand companies were having lifters made by Chinese companies who were not properly heat treating lifters to the proper hardness. A soft lifter will fail. When you buy parts beware of Chinese Junk. The American companies who are doing this should be held accountable for selling inferior parts.
Thanks for the explanation of what happened to Dan’s engine.
I’ve been running stock engines all my life, On the farm, in tractors and trucks and I have many classic cars and trucks. In almost 40 years I’ve never had trouble with a camshaft or lifters. Every type of flathead, small block V8’s, you name it, never a single problem.
It seems absurd that something that has been manufactured successfully for a century can suddenly no longer be counted on for reliable service.
Same here.
I had one of the mid 1970s Chevy 305 engines with the soft camshaft. Totally stock, bought new from GM. GM sold a bunch of them. They were probably the main cause of the lawsuits over Chevy engines in other divisions' cars.
An early sign of civilisational failure documented by Dan and Tony. 😢
Agreed. This is one in a long line of things going to shit all around us right now.
It's pretty bad when you have to hold on to decades old used parts because they are way better made than brand new ones.
@@Driven_Dragon Planned obsolescence.
@@Bloodbain88 ITS THE SIGN OF THE TIMES, quality from the past has spoiled us,we counted on quality ,cause in american made products,that's what you get and bought,i'm old,prior to 1975 every car made in america could be abused daily as long as you did not over rev it and changed the oil,now,you can't get parts to make it out of the stall,its not pitiful its criminal,tell everyone to buy quality now if they are building any thing that runs with oil in it,i'm retired from 47 years of building quality in my work,now its impossible with out real parts,i've experienced all of this just using wild cat parts on wheel bearings,installed three sets in my conversion van,they all failed within 4000 miles,now i had to go to pic n pull and get factory bearings from old trucks and cars,and they now have 130 k miles on pic and pull used parts,the factory has to buy or build the good stuff or suffer from warranty failures,think on that,its the sign of the times,you go with it,walk on
@@strattuner That's why I have a 1983 Chevy K30 truck with a 12 valve Cummins engine in it. I just don't have to worry about it. There are a few American companies still making quality products and I try to by from them whenever possible.
1.5 deg radius was ground into the base of the lifters where I worked in the early 80's...
Jegs Lifters are Made in USA and are Made by Eaton
Tony, your exactly right. The quality of the grinds along with the heat treatment that goes into the manufacturing process has become a problem. Even if you check the individual lifters as well as the taper on each lobe, you'll never be certain that the heat temper and the hardness of the components is there. I have personally built motors and checked all parameters, used moly on all lobes and lifter faces, primed the engine with zinc break-in oil. Fired the motor up and ran it the way you have told everyone in your videos. Guess what, out of twenty nine engines I have built in the past five years, two didn't pass the break in process.
Roller Cams from now on. Spend the extra money, I tell everyone. Less heat, less resistance, free up some HP. Peace of mind, you can't put a price on less stress and reliability.
Happened to my uncle. Luckily the part manufacturer paid to replace the motor. 6,000 bucks
Thanks for explaining the math on the camshaft and lifter program... I did not know any of this before you said it.. it helps me understand the issues that Dan is going through the frustration and the time & $ .. cheer from Canada
Hey UT....I watch your channel for three reasons and I'm not much beyond the very basics but I also watch for entertainment (1) besides knowledge (2). In this video, when you showed the witness mark on the lifter the first thing you asked is what does that witness mark mean? And immediately I knew the lifter was not rotating .....BECAUSE OF YOU AND YOU TEACHING ME THAT.....some time ago. It was exciting for this senior citizen to get it right and right the first time. And that great feeling produced is the third reason I watch UTG. Thank you!
Hey Fireball,.....I also had same response to UT's "What does that witness mark mean" question, .... No lifter Rotation obviously, but Exactly why (in this specific case) is Key, as can have Several reasons....This witness mark is Exactly Symmetrical & Centered across lifter Face & can Only be caused by No cam lobe Taper as Good taper would generate an Offset, Non-centered lifter face witness Mark....I initially Missed this important Exact cause Clue as explained by UT during 1st viewing but am learned now !!.....Just putting this out there as someone else could have missed it.....
Oooooh, so the lifter is supposed to be slightly offset when seated on the cam. Lol I always felt weird when I pulled my intake manifold and looked inside and saw it offset, like that doesn't look right 😅 but now I know it supposed to be like that
I reused 35 year old roller lifters on my last 5.0 Ho 302 build. They still don't bleed down.
I have a 69 Ford 302 which I'm putting in a project vehicle and was going to replace the cam and lifters but after seeing Tony's and Dan's issues I am just going to change the timing chain and gears and call it good. It has been sitting on my engine cart for 30 years. The old saying if it ain't broke don't fix it definitely has new meaning.
And they wont ever wipe the cam out because ford has been using superior ROLLER lifters since 1986.
PEOPLE GAVE A DAMN ABOUT their products reputations back 35 years ago,now everything is shipped from some butcher company 8 thousand miles away,and piss on you,they could care less,pay the money,buy the quality,build it in,slam the hood and forget about it,till oil change time comes,use american companies that make their own products and do their own clearance checking,people who have to do it right or go under,brand names isky crower a few,i want lifters out of the box,oil them coat the lobe,get on with it,I'LL PAY FOR THE QUALITY AND DO IT ONCE,and no i don't work for them,i've used over a hundred of their cam and lifters,over the last 47 years of doing what tony does,get dirty
Rebuilt a 3 liter mercruiser this summer ran good for 3 minutes then started running rough fought with it end up tearing back down cam lifters were destroyed all the metal went threw bearing and cylinders wrecking the hole rebuild
@@heaveymelt on getting parts for that build,i can't help you,i'm a master like tony is,only thing i ever did in the last 47 years with boats was engine exchange,didn't have to build them,just R&R,WHICH,just made me very happy,doing R&R from a technican point of view is never having to worry of the installation,you did't build it,just install it,the quality of parts right now,is a conspiracy,they are pushing people to buy the expensive stuff overseas and you will not buy quality at any price,TONY KNOWS THIS,your boat engine,to get rid of the grief,i'd put a new one in it,cause now there is no quality in aftermanrket,none i can see,unless you get a american company that builds in quality with a phone call down the road,and i'm serious,and i practice what i preach,i only want to do it once,this NARROWS DONE PARTS SELECTION REAL DAMN QUICK,NOW YOU KNOW,BUY QUALITY FROM PEOPLE WHO GIVE A DAMN,ROLL ON OR BOAT ON
Good catch, you understood what you were seeing.
So my neighbor and I are about to break in probably the last flat tappet we'll ever build. A serious BB Chevy with a pretty serious cam in the 280 duration range. As with all of my flat tappet motors, as soon as that engine lights, I'll lift the valve covers and make sure the push rods are spinning. If any of them are stalling, we'll shut it down and find out why ... I am not going to shrapnel load an $8K short block. It ain't worth even the possibility 🙃
And just a note (I have no affiliation), we are using Rhodes lifters. Partly because this is a jet boat with wet exhaust and we are trying to stop water reversion at low engine speed, but also because all Rhodes lifters are still made in the USA by Johnson Controls with properly heat treated USA steel. Ain't cheap ($250+), but a scattered motor is more expensive. The other choices are Howards Direct Lube and Crower Cam Saver. Howards and Crower do not have the designed bleed down to reduce duration at lower engine speed, but they are the same lifter body metal.
I seem to recall from long ago the refrain to make sure the push rods were rotating , did't really think too much why they should
nice
before firing it up
consider with intake off but valvetrain assembled , index the lifters on paper then hand rotate engine 20 rotations or so, one can verify the lifters are rotating before first startup
100% agree with your “bad lifters after the year 2000” assertion. Saw it as it was happening at the parts store I worked at as a kid. I always just assumed the lifter failures were caused by moron customers… but it just kept happening even to the smart guys, and I started to catch on.
Theres clearly an issue. But Id say theres a lot of morons who blow up stuff and blame the cam/lifter issue.
Buy Jegs Lifter Made in USA or ELgin
ARound 2000 all these fast ramp trendy cams were getting a lot of marketing in car mags too. Harvey Crane and Old man Iskendarian used to preach about "intensity factor" limits, even Vizard knew then.
If ones using a steep ramp high rpm get a solid and premium springs.
Stuff like this was rare in the '70s and 80s, if it did happen...you let everyone know. The lifter (flat-crown) problem has been a problem w Auto Parts stores for at least a decade, now. The cam lobe measuring was a good catch!
Yay! I guessed the problem the instant you put the picture up! All thanks to learning from the boss. Thanks for sharing all the Knowledge of the things you have learned in your prolific life UT! 😎👍🏻
9:29, a telling statement, "we never worried about it." In my past builds, I've mixed original lifters on original cams, replaced a couple of bad lifters with new ones, the last build of an SBC with a Melling cam and lifters done in the late 90"s is still intact. Current build of a race prep SBF will be with the Blue Racer 514 lift and NOS set of Rhoades lifters bought in the 80's because we are weary of the current state of production. And my wife ask me all the time why I haven't gotten rid of these old internal engine parts! Words to the wise from you and DD, "Check everything!"
I just watched Dans video a few seconds before coming here. The problems are obvious. The question is, why are parts being made this way? Dan used a Comp cam. I think he bought the lifters at the same time, both from Summit Racing. Didn't you have a Comp cam where the journals were machined oversized, and wouldn't even fit in the block? I believe it was for the hemi in that '67 GTX.
@ Gerald Scott, are these new parts being manufactured in factories outside of the U.S. , or has the quality actually gotten that bad here in the U.S. ?
Why? Smfh... Not to "make everything political". But some things ARE. The answer to why is simple. Whenever incompetent politicians gain power and start raising taxes on business after saying "Derp make the wealthy pay their fair share derp." What happens is they DON'T. They simply pack up and move their manufacturing to another country that dosen't overly tax them, AND *they get cheap labor*. .The cheap labor offsets the cost of logistics, ending up with it being more profitable in the long run.
The end result is (1) American jobs go overseas, (2) The products we buy are cheap as f. And (3) Americans get screwed but will keep voting for the idiots because they're stupid AF themselves.
Hope that helps you understand "why".
In fact, these days, if the product says "Made in Mexico" then you have a decent product. . Also Taiwan and Japan... But "Made in China" will most likely be a pile of 💩
He said not all lifters from the same set could be bad.
A lifter from the same set might have a crown.
If it is used to test a lifter that is flat it will still rock.
If it is used to test a lifter that has a crown it will rock twice as much.
Better to use something that is surely flat.
@@gordonwelcher9598 yep. that's why a straight edge is better.
I had cam failure from that company in the early 90's, two of the lifters we pulled out showed no lobe taper. Haven't used that brand since, also haven't had a failure since.
Never knew cams had tapper so lifters rotate learn something new everyday Thanks Tony
At this point in time, a cam swap is a complete joke and isn't worth it anymore. Unless you got deep pockets and go roller(which are also having quality control issues) or can somehow magically find a perfect NOS cam and lifter set from 30+years ago without paying an arm and a leg for it. The good old days of swapping in an "RV" cam in you stock SBC or BBC and picking up 25+ easy HP are over. Honestly at this point a known good used cam someone pulled out years ago is a better choice, even if the lifters may have gotten mixed up you still have a better chance than using a new POS cam and lifter set.
Yep. Good reputable roller cam in a set is in my opinion way to go on street cars that get beaten on. It costs 3 times more but done right it will last pretty much forever. But I am looking at it from perspective of European taking care of classic American cars. When shipping costs double to triple of the camshaft itself it hurts less to spend more on nice parts😁.
@@woodendoorgarage You are very correct. Buy once, cry once, eh ?
I've successfully broken in 2 different flat tappet camshafts in the same engine in the last 6 months and there will be another next week... (Because I apparently enjoy trying out camshafts!)
All I do is check for taper on the lobes, crown on JOHNSON / CROWER Cam saver lifters and I use driven break in oil which has high zinc/phosphorus & Low calcium which is very important! If your valve springs are over 120 PSI on the seat, or if you don't know what they are, you are looking for a disaster and if you do not get a visual of spinning lifters before you put the intake manifold on, you are again flirting With disaster.
@@Projects5309 at the end of the day, it's still ridiculous that you can't trust new parts. There is absolutely no good reason why you shouldn't be able to just grab a new cam and lifter set right out of the box, lube it up and shove it in without checking anything, its the manufacturers job to ensure quality parts get produced and sold, the end consumer should not have to be the QC man that should all be caught before the product even gets packaged. For decades thousands of people would blindly throw cam and lifter sets in all the time with an extremely high success rate, failures were alot lower than success. In today's age, even the pro's that have been assembling engines for decades are having trouble getting them to make it past the first 20 or so minutes of run time. And even if you bite the bullet and go roller, there have been alot of people experiencing lifter bleed down and in some cases having the roller on the lifter fail and scatter needle bearings all through the engine, so just because you choose a roller set up isn't 100% safe either. It's so hard to get decent useable parts anymore. Known good used parts are honestly the best choice now for people trying to build on budget.
@@briang4470 I get it, these companies have sold their souls to China in order to maximize their profits and quality with nearly everything has plummeted... It sucks but it's our reality.
I see all of these budget build up RUclips channels are using parts store brand lifters the vast majority of the time with more than a few sour outcomes.
I know purchasing Iskendarian or Crower lifters (which are both Identical made by Johnson USA and cost $225 for 16) throws the budget aspect out the window which is the major theme for these channels...BUT unfortunately, using these parts store parts totally negates the budget after a failure. If you can't afford good parts, it's in everyone's best interest to maybe wait or do what you have to do to come up with the extra $ for quality parts.
last flat tappet mill i built was around 1999-2000 . it was a sbc had crane anti-pump up lifters and crane rockers , seems like this mill had the cam swapped once from a huge comp to a l79 repo and re-used the same lifters-- remember when you could buy a good cam from PAW for $49 lol funny thing is i can't recall ANY of those cheap cams failing-- although there could have been some bad ones out there
USed a few of those SSI cams never had a problem either.
@@gordocarbo were all made by Melling and HQ
@@Schlipperschlopper Thanks...guess that explains it. Melling was/is a mfr for the big 3 arent they?
Thanks. Very informative. I just took for granted that stuff out of the box was good. The last engine I did I had night mares of doing the break in. I also use the Zinc oil and took all steps. It worked but now I know I was lucky.
Tony i saw this same thing happen when my buddy tried to use a roller cam with flat tapped lifters ten years ago
🤔
@@rheidtech I think Dan bought it as a set where the cam and lifters come in the same box. But that doesn't mean they didn't send a mismatch. Good point.
I have been there had a lifter fail back in the spring in my small block,Love D and D"s stuff !!
Exactly why I went to a roller cam. My cam on a new build earlier this summer, cam was pooched in 25 minutes. 2x zinc Maxima oil and installed by a reputable machine shop. They helped me out quite a bit in labor to fix the damage to the bearings, rings and cylinder hone from the cam/lifter trash.
I like his new engine hoist. lol
It was funny that all the damage was on the face/hump of the lifter, esp. the one that mushroomed.
I saw Dan's video, this is going to get worse in many things, not just engine parts. There is no pride in what many companies make these days. I think it is also a backdoor way to try and do away with IC engines.
That's what I've said for years now! Faulty parts and positioned gas will kill off the old vehicle's!
Does Competition Cam really make more money by selling inferior Chinese products and then losing customers?
@@gordonwelcher9598 Don't know, you should ask them to let you see their books.
I doubt this is an issue in factory parts. Although the bad cams in GMs past sould act as a reminder. There are very few engines being produced today that use cam in block technology. And those that do are using roller cams. Probably the last flat tappet cam engine produced in the US was the inline 4.0 used in the Jeeps. Cam issues with both the LS and the New Hemis do point out that there can be issues. But from the information I've seen this is more of a lubrication problem involving a different issues. Primarily high amounts of idling. Run anything without oil and it will fail. The SOHC & DOHC engines I've seen in production* use small roller cam followers that rest against a small hydraulic flash adjusters on one end.
*both no longer in production.
@@mpetersen6 you sir are correct , flat tappet cams were the norm 30 yrs ago when billions of dollars were invested in them and they had to work and they did ! Everytime those days are gone roller is the only safe bet now
Great information! Thanks Tony!
This was a great episode!!! It is important to know about things like this... The camshaft, lifters, and the rest of the valve train in the truck I drive, is all original equipment, well over 500k. Miles, which is over 46 years old... Oil changes & flters every 3-4k. Miles... 15w-40 Rotella with a bottle of Rislone detergent , Bosch (#3510) filters.. The timing set, the oil pump, fuel pump, water pump, distributor, alternator, starter, t-stat, carb have all been replaced/rebuilt at least once, but engine and heads have never been out of that truck.. A stock Chevy 350 4-bolt main engine... It is still running good.. Great vehicles were made back then...
I'm sold on rislone also
@@zelenskysboot361 It's a product that has been around for many years... Originally sold in the waxed-paper 1-qt. Round cans, that needed a can-opening tool to put holes in the metal ends... It was less concentrated back then, and replaced 1qt. of oil on an oil & filter change. It really helps to keeps the rings free- from sticking in the piston grooves and it helps to keep the lube passages open and to keep the valve train & lifters free from sludge build-up.... Worth every penny to help keep the engine running properly.
Good on you, for looking after it, as it has looked after you too!
@@MsKatjie She (my truck) does look after me, and I'm happy to have her. I guess it is the care of the important things, that can make a difference...
@@michaelmartinez1345 500k miles? I bet if you did a compression check its running on 6 cylinders maybe. Pull the cam youll have flat lobes. I made alot of money changing cams on Chevy 350's in the 80's. They rarely go over 80k miles with out at least one lobe worn.
Thank you for this very educational program.. I have been following Dan. He's not very happy.. I did hear it running with a knock knock. He did show the lifter but I haven't seen the cam. Seems his supplier has gone South..
Another RUclips channel just got through touring Comp Cams factory & they (Comp) were bragging on how advanced they were, what kind of high zoot, triple throwdown, high tech machines they got now, yet Tony gets oversized journals, Dan & others get bogus cams & garbage lifters. That's not even mentioning ignition boxes & bad dog high tech computer systems going after a little bit!
Like many others, they utilize China to maximize the profits. Only ex employees will admit the garbage materials and bogus words they feed us.
Its everything wrong with American manufacturing today. Checking one part and assuming that the other 100 are good.
@@oldblueaccord2629 Chineseum my man! That's where the lifters come from. Now the camshafts, some here, some not. Whether the metal they use is Chineseum or USA is up for debate.
@@vincentenk4449 Johnsons are made here from what little I know, As far as Chinese your talking to someone that stopped buying Chinese products 20 years ago.
First time veiwer and you answered some questions I've had for a while, thanks for taking the time to explain it
I have been subbed to Dan and you for years and yes you are both great channels. Yes, Chinesium strikes once again - planned obsolescence - who knows, but definitely zero quality control in the factories these parts are being built.
Try using the Comp Cams lifter grooving tool kit. It cuts a groove in the lifter bore to allow oil to run down on lifter lobe. Supposedly only loses 2psi oil pressure. I started using this on all flat tappet cam engines.
Thanks tony👍your knowledge is evidently priceless. Ledgend
I wonder how many more lifter sets / cams are out there with no quality control. Makers are a bit embarrassed? Worries me coz I'm in the middle of a full build and I'll be checking what you just explained. The Uncle Tony for the information on this. 👍🇭🇲
It isn't just xam/lifter sets. Its everything. And specifically from one parts store. Orileys. I went through 7 factory starters from then in 6 weeks. Fron 3 states and 5 stores. They claimed it was the truck. If it was the truck, I wouldn't have been able to get it to start by smacking the starter with a hammer while having someone turn the ignition. I finally got my money back. Went to auto zone across the street and got one. Fron the exact same manufacturer onky manufactured pre cvirus that was a year ago and haven't had not one starter issue since.
Everyone is seeing it.
@@FreedomInc seems like no manufacturer wants to comply with quality control anymore. Geeze where does that put us petrol owners/classic/muscle/drag racers from now on?
My mate had "brand new" hydraulic rolllers fail on his custom aussie built 351 stoker problems are all over the world
@@filthyminges wow champion. Manufacturers don't care anymore. What pisses me off is that it's more expensive to now buy for any hi performance parts and look what's happening. 👍🇦🇺
@@mick_1949 I think on this channel before someone pointed out the potential of intentional sabotage of the combustion engine side of things in regards to parts great reset to Pol Pot 2.0 etc
The fact that Comp gave Dan a hassle warranty wise and Summit sent a replacement right away speaks volumes to the knowledge of the issue and who is willing to challenge the poor quality. A run around to the consumer but Summit’s size means they have the clout to address the issue.
Just replaced valve seals on my old many mile 318. Suddenly no more blue smoke at start up. What a treat. Should have done it many years ago.
u guys make me feel better and better about putting in a used engine in my rig but it only has 6,000 miles on it still no break downs but went through 2 sets of tires for the back been on the road as a daily driver for 2 months now
Great video UTG
Yes, I certainly did learn something.
Love this channel man. Love old timers... Miss my father. he was a body man. mudslinger.. they do a lot more replacing parts than they do bondo these days, but his job was mainly using the frame machine and bending things back to factory specs
There is another factor in the lifter centerline to cam cam centerline equation. The squareness of the lifter bore to the centerline of the camshaft centerline. When I worked in an engine manufacturing facility this was one of the major headaches I had to deal with. Several factors were responsible for this. The lifter bore being machined in multiple station on the transfer line (1) being one. Typically a lifter bore might have two drilling operations plus a roaming operation per hole. I was primarily involved in six cylinder blocks but that only can amplify the issues.
1) Drills and tooling wear. Cutting tools wear. Drill bushings wear. The guide bushings on bushing plates wear. The machine slides on machining stations wear. Two or three million cycles and misalignments will behind to appear.
2) These misalignments will effect accuracy. These can cause the drilled holes to be slightly off location.
3) Another source of potential misalignment is fixture wear. Part locator pins and clamping surfaces wear. This can cause the machined feature to be in a slightly different location in one station to be in slightly different spot relative to the print dimension than in another. If the clamping surfaces are wearing this will eventually cause the cylinder block to twist when clamped up in the station.
4) As tooling wears drill especially can move during the cut. They are far more flexible than most people realize.
5) Reamers even if they hav a bushing plate to guide them will have a tendency to follow the hole.
One way to reduce a lot of these issues is to semi finish or finish the lifter bores in boring operations.
Just machining 12 lifter bores in a block could take a set of machining stations around 100 feet in length.
Tolerances on these features typically would be +/-.003 on location or less. The real killer though is squareness. Typically a lifter bore is .0001 per inch in squareness to the pan rail. But the cam itself may be +/- .003 to true position and .003 in parallelism to the crankshaft bore. The point of all of this is it is almost impossible in volume production to hold tolerances of less than .001 in volume production.
1) Typically components in modern internal combustion engines are machined in a series of sections of specialized machine tools. These sections are typically broken down as Operation sections. Typically devoted to toughing and proceeding on to various other semi finish and finish operations. A fairly simple part such as a con rod may require a machining line 100 to 150 yards in length (2). As the complexity of the part goes up the more operational sections that will be needed to produce finished part. These operational sections are usually separated by loading or unloading stations allowing individual sections to continue to produce parts if the one before or ahead is down for various reasons. This can be tool changes or various repairs being undertaken.
2) Typical operation sequence on a connecting rod would be the following
A) Rough grind to finished with using a double disc grinder with the rod carried in a rotating plate with pockets that the rods fit in. This operation includes automatic inspection to allow adjustment of the grinding heads to control width
B) Rough bore and semi finish of the pin and rod bearing diameters. Includes auto Matic gaging and tool compensatory
C) Drill, ream and tap for connecting rod bolts
D) Finish grind rod width
E) Finish bore pin and bearing diameter
F) Crack the big ends of the rods, brush the faces, insert rod bolts and torque. Cracked rods have an extremely accurate registration in terms of the cap and main body fitting back together.
G) Drill oil must holes if required
H) Press in pin bushings
I) Finish hone pin and bearing diameters
J) Final gaging of diameters and weighing of rods on each end.
Most modern rods are sintered material that can be post processed forged after sintering. Rods in higher performance engines will have slightly different sequences of operations.
Thanks for taking the time to explain. A lot of people, especially with EVs now in the market, would see an internal combustion engine as "stone age." I would contend, that the tolerances required and achieved, is a testament to the skill of all involved. Have a great day.
Thanks for the information ! I had to read this one twice
That explanation only works for failures from the initial factory build. These failures are in already-proven, high mileage rebuilds or performance builds on older, well-used engines. None of those bore alignment issues would have survived through the life of the engines these guys are working on, THEN blow up new parts.
@@shelleyking8450
Good point. The issue I pointed out only serves to show just how close the machining had to be done on machining lines that may have been putting out say 1500 blocks per day. Day in day out.
Actually looking for original machining defects is looking at the wrong end. The lack of cam lobe taper does sound reasonable.
In a way this reminds me of another save money by DIYing repair. The one where people re-surface heads using a glass plate and Emery paper. Now think about if the head is an OHC. Single or double. Let's say the warped head is .020 out of flat. We now have a cam here that when originally built that was with in say .002 end to end. The DIY home mechanic now has a cam bore that is bowed in relation to the head surface.
@@mpetersen6 the glass and Emory trick isn't much different than the way many machine shops surface heads. Pretty much the grocery store conveyor with Emory and a stop. Would think with different directions being used, the glass version might be better.
This does seem to be happening a lot with with comp cams, SRC the street racing channel on RUclips just lost a fresh engine to a faulty lifter
Lunati and clay smith…
Thanks for the lesson uncle
Tony,
One thing I have not heard you mention is lifter bores, when assembling the engine Mark the pushrods at the valve cover rail,
Then just rolling it over by hand you can get a good idea if it's good.
I even look at them on the dyno running.
Just had a sbc that the bores did not clean up at.007" front to rear with a reamer you n a cnc machining center.
Nice to see you teaching the people
With hands on!
After having the same brand that Dan used, kill 2 cams back to back... I went roller and haven't installed another Flat tappet cam... I know roller is more expensive up from but it becomes a pay me now or later proposition.. not worth the gamble
@@faststang85 Howard's is my go to cam company now... They are good people and stand behind their products
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Delta Cams in Tacoma Washington is my go to and I would highly recommend that company to anyone its a small business with amazing customer service. They do regrinds for all my import stuff I have their 272 profile in my honda but they do domestic cams also. They can reface old lifters so you can reuse the quality OEM ones if they are in decent enough shape instead of having to use Chinese junk. Also they have a process where they can cut a small groove into lifters to provide direct oil spray onto the cam lobes and apparently it helps a lot.
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage this is the kind of customer service im talking about ruclips.net/video/cedQYIDMVAM/видео.html
@@faststang85 yes they are still in business and are still doing all those same regrinds. They are very reasonably priced the regrinds are way cheaper than having to buy a brand new camshaft.
Just came here from watching Dan's big block pain.
Thanks for the info. I had no clue the cam lobes were beveled.
Most definitely have been educated, thanks for explaining it all, all the best to you and your loved ones
This video was excellent! I learned a lot.
Uncle tony just finished running a cam in on a 351 cleveland half and hour ago . Did all the checks before install cam and lifters in engine . All perfect this time aroumd last engine i built has faulty lifter same thing happened cheap lifter and i brought them off a big company in usa . .
Thank you Tony.
So , now I know how to check the lobes on my new vodoo cam , good . Got a set of 80:s comp cam lifters . Crown is perfect on those . Cheers .
Excellent detailed explanation 👌
I broke in a summit house cam in a 360 a few months ago. I bought some zinc additive to use in the oil. After the break in run, I saw the unopened bottle of zinc laying there. So far, so good still running fine.
🤞🤞
What I get from videos like these is to pony up the extra money and go with roller cam and lifters.
Same
Yup
Amen
Very interesting subject, thanks Tony! BTW, I've been running garden variety off the shelf oil in garden variety push rod engines without incident.
If placing lifters foot to foot, how does one know which lifter has no crown? I propose lifter crown to straight and flat side of lifter (use side of lifter as straight edge).
In the case of installing a cam and lifter set, I propose inserting the cam and lifter set and before installing chain or rocker arms, rotate cam clockwise and confirm all lifters are rotating.
BTW, I pump up each lifter in oil to confirm it's operating correctly before installing them. I check for smooth plunger travel and leak down (using kerosene or diesel makes this easy).
I'm not sure the lifter is necessarily going to spin if it's just the cam lobe and the lifter. Without any load from th ed rest of the valve train th he lifter just might skate.
@@mpetersen6 You can spin test after completed build, before run. Pop the valve cover(s) & watch. Crank with starter, or sometimes even just turn over by hand. Quick, easy & proof positive of pretty much entire valve train.
@@robertbedsole8682
Yes with the valve train in place once the lobe starts to raise the lifter and compress the spring you will have a load on the interface between the lobe and lifter. What would worry me is with out any load the spinning force on the lifter from the high side of the lobe being unable to overcome any stiction the assembly lube might present between the lifter and the wall of the lifter bore. I think if I were to be building an OHV engine today with any serious performance increases I would go with a roller cam no matter the cost increase. Roller lifter are available for a wide variety of engines and it really should not cost more for a cam ground to meet a roller application than a flat tappet as far as the aftermarket cam producers are concerned. The lifters themselves. Yes they will cost more. More parts more machining.
@@mpetersen6 Understood, but the argument can be made that with zero load, no wear will occur. As load increases, rotation will (should) begin (any resistance from lube will be overcome). Manual spin test will show intermittent rotation w/rocker motion, not smooth 360 continuous rot. Having said that, I think people put WAY too much miracle goop on their assemblies now-a-days. Use a light oil w/zinc, a light assemble lube on lobes/faces, and hand crank until you know everything is right. Then I always crank with starter w/ignition off to bring up oil pressure. All good? Check valve lash. Still all good? Fire it. Never had any problems; never lost a single part. Flats good to prob 0.600 lift, 300+ lbs springs, 7000+ RPM for typ small/med blocks. More with careful design & good parts. Then rollers. JMO. Cheers!
HOWdy U-T-G,
Thanks for the LIFTER-FAILURE Video
COOP
...
I've had a machine shop reface an old set of lifters before with good results.
THANK YOU.
Great info. I recently built a 455 Olds with a solid flat tappet cam and lifters. When priming the oiling system I couldn't get oil to one rocker. We decided to fire it up and thought it would probably come around. It still would not oil. Long story short, one of the lifters had no oil hole machined into it! Contacted Olds Performance where the lifters came from and they replaced it, and all is well.
I assumed Dan's problem was soft lifters, but after watching your diagnosis, it makes more sense that the cam had no lobe taper. It's hard to get quality parts these days.
A supervisor of the tech department at Comp Cams told me 3 weeks ago that checking for cam lobe taper is so unbelievably specialized that only two people in the country have been able to do it accurately and properly. Was this a deterrent to try to get me to not bother checking his cam?
Starting to remember all this rotating whirling Dervish caper from before
dear Tony,
all your video help a lot , thank you, i wonder i have the same situation you have in my Chevy 350 , my question is how to check the lope while in the engine? without take it off, if it possible.
Chris Birdsong had a bad cam and lifters from Comp cams this year also, a complete rebuild was required to repair the damage on a Dodge 360.
I never had a cam fail yet (on an engine I just put a cam in) , but a lot of it might be prep and the fact that it never went way outside the box. If you want too much spring pressure , lift, and ramp angle you might have to break the cam in without the correct valve springs. Also, the lifter has to rotate, so there must be proper lifter to bore clearance. I always used a wheel cylinder brake hone to clean the lifter bores, it would be interesting to see if there is a way to measure that and a spec that clearance. The best advice I've seen on break in, is to paint a line on each pushrod. If they are turning you are going to have a good chance, and if not shut it down find out what is wrong before the cam can wreck the rest of the engine.
Big lift and quick ramps are really hard on a pushrod engines. Paint on the pushrods is a great tip!
I totally agree. The new cam designs use roller cam profiles, yes they make big numbers but are too much for flat tappet cams. By all means, do all the prep and precautions, but sticking to milder grinds should avoid most of these problems.
There absolutely is ways to measure the bores and clearance and I do ot regularly. Hitting them bore with those break hones though, that is asking for trouble
Just had a Howard’s cam failure. Went roller this time. Seems to be a very common issue now days with poor material quality.
Getting harder and harder in todays world being a ol hot rodder man.....between the oil,gas,and parts.....Labor of Love is so fitting!
Many years ago I had rebuilt the 292 in my 64 Chevy pickup. I loved that truck, it ran great for about a year with zero issues. It ran so quiet you would hear the tires crunching on gravel before you heard anything else. Then one day it started clattering terribly. One of the lifters broke in half!! Yeah, in freaking half with no warning whatsoever. It demolished the lifter bore and ruined the block. The witness mark on the base of the broken lifter was perfect! I had never before or since seen a lifter fail that way. I haven't even spoken to anybody that has seen that failure. How about you Tony, ever heard of that?
The Clack Of Doom--it should be a t-shirt! 😆 Thanks UT!
My Father was going thru his storage and let me know that he found a bunch of my old Pontiac parts. Camshaft and lifter kit in box from 1977 I found at a swap meet years ago was in there along with many good used cams and lifter sets. Thats my recent pot of gold. I never regret stashing parts.
Great information, thank you for Sharing. Question, how does a roller cam differ from a flat tappet cam?
A roller cam does not have the taper ground into the lobe, because with a roller, the lifter cannot rotate.
Tony you made excellent points about the rampent cam and lifter failures. If I were to buy a new camshaft from Isky or Comp I would send it to John at Delta Cam's to inspec and measure all the lobe's taper and regrind the cam if needed, the cost is less than 150 dollars well spent. Delta will also grind lifter crowns to match the reground cam.
Thanks for giving us some specs for checking these cams and lifters. I have a GM 283 I plan to put a new cam in before dropping it into a car. The engine came out of a '66 pickup truck with 2 barrel carb. Looks to have 77,000 miles on it as I checked odometer and wear on pedals. It was a farm truck too. Anyhow, I'm thinking I might just leave it as is and just put a new timing chain on and run it. I know I'll be good if I check the new cam and lifters thoroughly it's just the question of metal quality at this point. I'm like Dan. For anyone who didn't see his video, he said he hates doing things twice and so do I. And adding to the mix is hoping the metal shavings don't kill the bearings and your filter catches them all if you do roast a cam.
I love Hot Rod Jesus! Ya he really got bit in the @$$sets with the cam crap.
Great failure analysis Tony!
Thanks Uncle Tony , I have been following DD'd troubles , We all appreaciate your educated imput .
These suppliers should be embarrassed with them selves ! they are charging more $$$'s for cheep carp !
Cràp
I've been afraid to cam my 258 i6 until now, thanks Tony!
I ran my new cam in mine for 6k+ miles, and mine started ticking. I thought maybe Rocker Cam loose, but the lock nut was tight, so I pulled a lifter and wasn't gouging but was dished the lifter.
Cam lobes are also generally offset to one side of the lifter bore to promote rotation. I've run into supposed flat tappet cams that had the lobes centered in the bore. This works fine for a roller cam but is death for flat tappets. I sent one cam back, thinking they sent me a roller cam instead, then got back the very same thing. I went to a different brand and got what I needed.
I often wonder if those designing or grinding some cams even remember what flat tappets were.
Man this is a video i need to bookmark for when i do a cam
Yep, just broke in my cam and lifters and one has gone bad, this was a Lunati Voodoo hydraulic flat tapped cam and lifters set from Jegs. Cam became noisy within a minute of start-up and that was with the right oils and running procedure. Going to switch to a roller cam.
Just watched street racing channel drop a fresh sbc in his s 10 and it dropped a valve after 1 pass. Absolutely horrible. Interesting you made this video around the same time that happened.
the same thing happened to the shop in Nick's Garage, it happened to me, I have had 2 failures in 30 year's. the last one 3 years ago.
Ever thought about missing oil thrower paddles on aftermarket conrods? Original GM Small Block rods have so called Splashers that throw oil on the cam lobes, most aftermarket rods dont have these oil throwers
Great data
All very good information Tony. My question is what concern is spring pressure during break in ? We appreciate Your time and effort sharing this with us. Thanks, Bless You and Yours...
In the comments "This is Your Captain Speaking" brought up the issue that i wondered about of holding lifters end to end. Which is crowned ? Only one?
Stock spring pressure is fine during break in. If running heavier double or triple springs you want to run only the single outside spring during break in. The higher spring pressure is enough to damage the surface before they get broken in.
My friend, this isn't what I was taught, you say the lifter is tilted, I was taught the lifter is off center of the cam lobe making the lifter spin in the hole, either way we get the same result, thanks for the good videos
What about a snug bore, not allowing the lifter to spin? Wouldn't that wear the crown away and make the wear pattern even out and be in a straight line? Not to question the expert, but just thinking of any cause..
Is it true that a company is refurbing lifters and selling as new? I read that somewhere and couldn't remember if it was you that stated it in another video about lifters? Thanks for an informative video.
I just put a small block Ford together with a summit racing k3601 cam kit and thankfully I didn't notice any quality control issues with it or the supplied lifters, I didn't follow the break in procedure right but it broke in just fine but best believe I was super nervous about it, summit brand cams seem fairly decent from what I can tell
Tony , do you remember when cam lube was almost a paste , instead of a bottle of what amounts to 40 weight oil ? I also lost a NOS General Kinetics cam ack in 2000 , my mistake , a new set of Comp Cams lifters , so they have had problems for a very long time now . Crane had problems back in the mid 70 s , remember the " Fireball cams " ?
I used Molykote G paste back in 1981, some people used a Lubriplate grease.
Very educational video!
I have a friend who has built engines for the local stock car racers. He would rotate the engine over by hand to make sure all lifters are rotating before putting the intake on.
Tony, I talked to a cam grinder and he said when American car manufacturers started using roller cams in new cars is when the standards went out the window on lifters and cam cores. Also the EPA removed the good anti wear additives from oil. I know you remember the GM 305s in the late 70s early 80s that wiped cam lobes regularly in factory engines sometimes before leaving the dealership.
the levels of ZDDP in engine oils didnt start being a problem until the late 1990's.....the GM 305's in the 70's and 80's were just junk.....
I justs said to someone else about Chevys wiping cams in the 80's. Im sure people at home just passed out.
The lifter bore in block is the culprit
Nonsense. They went to roller because its abetter design. Are we supposed to all be driving 350s with flat tappet cams still??
I’ve had two over the past few years go after like 15 25 miles.. that includes a oil change after break in with same concoction of zinc from comp with hot rod classic Lucas 10w-40 oil
i just did a 340 and really wanted a hydraulic roller, nobody had cam cores. Crower offers a flat tappet with an extra degree of taper, 2 1/2 degrees. it broke in fine and is quiet with an hour or so of run time.
I was lucky enough to have fired up my fresh pontiac on a stand first start with no tappet covers on. Over half the lifters were not rotating and had the same pattern as seen on the DD lifter. Cam taper was ground on BACKWARDS!.
Faster to get another cam from a different supplier, new cam still has several lifters not turning. Taper on lobes was on correct direction but very low, less than 3 thou.
Got the cam reground locally after explaining my issue and BAM. All lifters spinning like champs.
Back in the day, I ran a Comp 268H in a 350 sbc for over 50,00 miles without a problem. Today, I would buy GM performance parts ONLY! You just can't be sure where the aftermarket stuff is coming from.
Two cam failer with in month for me.
First cam and lifter where summit racing brand.
Second cam and lifter were comp cam.