Very good video to understand the different of both, flat tappet and roller cam. I am started my FE 390 rebuilt over one year ago. I need some time to decide what I want to do.....then I spend more money and go roller cam. I wont go the risk with flat tappet. So I get some help from Brent Lykins. And I ordered some parts from him. He create the profile for the roller cam which fits tobthe rest of the car/engine. And I also go with roller rocker. And some days ago the big day was comming.....First start, after priming the oilpump. The engine starts after some turns and yesssss, he is running good, without noise, no leaks. Now the second drive lap is done to settle the piston rings. I am very happy. It was not cheap, also because I am in Germany. So the most parts I have to order in the USA plus shipping, plus taxes. So I think it was the best way im my case.
Do the rockers have needle bearings ? If so, did you add restrictors in the heads to reduce the oil flow to the shafts ? The needle bearings allow way more oil flow through the rockers than a bushing type rocker. If not restricted, this can starve the 7&8 rod bearings of oil. A .060" restrictor works well, some people have gone smaller.
When I built my 427 BBC back in 2000 with a comp cam flat tappet cam. I primed the engine on the engine stand using an HEI distributor with the gear teeth machined down. I Made sure all pushrods and rockers had oil coming out. Comp cams stated to take inner springs out, I said screw that. I used regular valvoline 30 weight oil to break it in. Cam many years later had a perfect pattern on the lobes.
Yep My Brother rebuilt a sbc in 1982 and I Rebuilt a 402 and a 454 mid and late 80's And I can't remember the oil's WT but it was ether 10w40 or straight 30 W Valvoline And a Comp cam . At that time I never heard of Break in Oil .This is NOT a Recommendation on how to Break In a Cam ! Just how we did it back in the 1980's
So old time factory engines were all pretty run for half an hour before they were installed at the assembly line. I don't think so. The factory's didn't lose 50% of their engines in the old days. It's just poor quality parts.
Thanks Pete for this and your other engine building tips videos, many future engine builders will have a wealth of knowledge thanks to you and your videos!
As an aspiring novice, this sounds so helpful, and worth the money. You definitely earned my sub. I will double check you and get a second opinion, but i do feel far more in formed. Thanks.
I'm just starting a mopar, 400 to 512 stroker engine. I plan on going roller. Thank you for this. I am educating myself on what's necessary, i.e. bronze distributor gear, stronger timing cover, and thrust button. The latter two may be a good topic for a video.
I'll stick to my flat tappet thank you. All I'm seeing with rollers is all the needle bearing failures in the roller wiping out cams left and right. Just ask all the Hemi 5.7 and 6.4 guys.
That's because they bought cheap Chinese made hydraulic roller lifters. The Ford Racing hydraulic roller lifters in my 331 small block Ford with an X cam went over 250,000 miles with no problems and I only rebuilt it because the rings were shot.
Compare a factory flat tappet lobe to pretty much any 'aftermarket Performance ' lobe, thats the difference! Open a comp cataloge, look at the specs of an XE lobed cam as compared to one of their factory copy cams with similar @50 duration numbers, check the lift and .006" duration number differences and you will see exactly what changed.
Thanks you for this video. Just preparing to break in a 340 flat tapped solid lifter cam and lifters. My question is using breaking valve springs(60-70 lbs). Currently on my speedmaster heads are some custom “ beehive” shaped springs rated at 230 lbs ( closed). As long as they do everything else correctly, lube, pre-oiling, ensuring immediate startup, is using a breaking valve spring worth the time and the money? Kirt
Just getting close to running my rebuilt 350 Chevy. I got to thinking, why doesn’t the “biggie” performance cam/lifter manufacturers set up a thermal cycling/oiling fixture, and using the fixture and simulated engine warm up thermal cycles, break the cam & lifters in, then package/ship a matched set to their customers, identifying which lifters go with which cam lobe? It seems, in today’s World, that would go a long way towards ending failures? And, my Comp Cam paperwork tells me of a nitriding process I could send it in to have done - too late, my cam’s in. It also talks of a lifter bore groove - but I can’t buy that tool & do it now, as I’m partially assembled and can’t risk shavings now. For a guy rebuilding a one-off motor (shade tree week-end guy, doing one motor) I wish I’d have known these details. Anyway - seems to me the aftermarket world is slacking a bit . . . And machine shops for not grooving the engine lifter bores at machining ( they never mentioned it). Thoughts?
Well I’m running Brodix Ik 200 heads and I’m nervous about the spring pressure. I got another idea ; could the cams & lifters be made of tool steel, perhaps? You said the failure rate is 50%, that just scares the hell out of me. Also, a question; if you pre-oil your engine before start up, won’t you “wash” the special lube off the lobes?
Hi Pete excellent informative video. I’ve watched a few machine shop videos and cams being ruined prematurely on Dyno or initial break in. Have you come across cam failure concerning Rockwell hardness on the cam or the lifter of flat tappet cams? You are using oil with zinc on break in do you used a zinc based oil as your primary oil after break in? My questions might be totally irrelevant if so tell me I’m no engine builder by any stretch of the imagination just a retired jet engine mechanic ( Navy ) I know you are ( Air Force ) but I’m interested in learning. Thank you for sharing knowledge . Artie. 👍🇺🇸
It is difficult to do the Rockwell test on all lobes since it is a destructive test. I always use a zinc oil for break-in and for every oil change after.
Bottom line: Oil properties have changed over the years. YOU CAN'T RISK A FLAT TAPPET CAM FAILER! Play it safe and remove the risk factor and go full roller! It's just what you have to do now, face it!
Interesting information! I have a question for you, I have a marine 502, one day It would not rev up but to 2700 - 2800 RPM, there is compression, fuel pressure, power to the injectors, to the spark plugs, ECM checked good, dont know what else to think of. Now Im thinking about some bad lifters, could it be possible that one or more lifters went bad out of the blue? and the valve is not opening? I got #3 and # 2 cylinders dead. Thank you in advance
@@PetesGarage Thanks for the reply. When you say lifters (they are not worn out) could it be they are not getting charged with oil resulting in not opening the valve enough?
Flat tappet is quieter than roller? Hmm. Just broke in my Isky 570 lift on 1.5, break in oil and stopped 7 mins in to adjust lash. Cold lash estimate was wrong, started clacking when hot. Once lashed hot all good.
If you are using a high lift flat tappet with double valve springs do you remove inner springs for break in I've never had to now they say I must for a 383 with a 572 lift cam
Sorry for my lack of understanding but isn't the oil pump connected to / driven by either the crankshaft or the cam? How can you spin the oil pump with a drill and not have it turn the crankshaft / cam??
This engine has an intermediate shaft that goes between the crank and oil pump. The pump is not connected to anything without the drive gear, usually on the distributor or another shaft.
You don't Know, What you don't know, Until you have years/decades of experience, with anything mechanical. Thank god for RUclips, Before that it was word of mouth & Information moved very slow...
Success rate with roller, I agree with you but... You know you can open a valve riding a flat tappet lifter faster/longer than a roller, right? If you put a torque wrench on two valve trains, you'd never be able to tell the difference between roller and flat tappet valve train.
When talking about the taper on the cam lobes, and saying the lifters will hammer down the high side, you forgot 1 very VERY important part. The lifters. The lifters must have a proper crown ground on the bottom that matches the taper of the cam lobe. This is a necessity for rotation, and it also keeps the lifter off the edge of the cam. You'll have half the lofter face in contact with half the cam lobe.
Dumb question, but anyone ever wonder how it is a roller cam can be ground with such precision & surface finish it doesn't need break in, but a flat tappet cam "does"? If anything, a flat tappet takes up [minor] angular slop, whereas a roller needs lifter bore centers dead nuts square to cam tunnel or... axles don't load evenly, things can spread, and little bearings get scattered about after a time when it finally gives way. Either way, anyone building consider this: as the block goes, so can the cam. Obviously, no break in oil on earth will fix bad taper or crown, but it can burnish things/change ra.. There is no doubt initial lubricant applied to any machine parts leaves a huge fingerprint where longevity is concerned - I like something in the moly family for flat tappet cam lobes on first startup. As for that first ten seconds, a thing the marine world knows well: prelube pump. Needs its own pickup [I like about one inch off bottom], a lockout relay [fuel pressure switch control works most engines], and a check valve so main pump output feeds as designed/doesn't suffer bypass back to sump. Pressure? Just enough to get oil to the top of the block is fine.
50% cam failure rate?? Did I hear that correctly? If you’re having a 50% failure rate, you’re doing something wrong. Maybe 8%! If that! 2-5% would be expected.
Why then back in the 70 the factory never did this I put cams never broke then in mopar performance I think cheap cores china metal not pure back in the day everthing usa steel
None of this really makes sense. The world has hundreds of millions of cars running that have never had any cam, lifter problems. It looks like the big 3 don't know anything?
I agree with you. But when you use bigger cams and valves springs with higher seat pressures, it's no longer like stock from the factory. All cam manufacturers recommend a break-in procedure. Back in the day the owners manual for cars had a recommended break-in period and procedure.
Very good video to understand the different of both, flat tappet and roller cam. I am started my FE 390 rebuilt over one year ago. I need some time to decide what I want to do.....then I spend more money and go roller cam. I wont go the risk with flat tappet. So I get some help from Brent Lykins. And I ordered some parts from him. He create the profile for the roller cam which fits tobthe rest of the car/engine. And I also go with roller rocker. And some days ago the big day was comming.....First start, after priming the oilpump. The engine starts after some turns and yesssss, he is running good, without noise, no leaks. Now the second drive lap is done to settle the piston rings. I am very happy. It was not cheap, also because I am in Germany. So the most parts I have to order in the USA plus shipping, plus taxes. So I think it was the best way im my case.
Thanks for sharing
As the owner of this build, I couldn’t have chosen a better builder to assemble it. Looking forward to firing it up, Pete!!!
Thank you so much... I think I'm more excited than you...lol
Do the rockers have needle bearings ? If so, did you add restrictors in the heads to reduce the oil flow to the shafts ? The needle bearings allow way more oil flow through the rockers than a bushing type rocker. If not restricted, this can starve the 7&8 rod bearings of oil. A .060" restrictor works well, some people have gone smaller.
When I built my 427 BBC back in 2000 with a comp cam flat tappet cam. I primed the engine on the engine stand using an HEI distributor with the gear teeth machined down. I Made sure all pushrods and rockers had oil coming out. Comp cams stated to take inner springs out, I said screw that. I used regular valvoline 30 weight oil to break it in. Cam many years later had a perfect pattern on the lobes.
That's awesome, thank you
Yep My Brother rebuilt a sbc in 1982 and I Rebuilt a 402 and a 454 mid and late 80's And I can't remember the oil's WT but it was ether 10w40 or straight 30 W Valvoline And a Comp cam . At that time I never heard of Break in Oil .This is NOT a Recommendation on how to Break In a Cam ! Just how we did it back in the 1980's
So old time factory engines were all pretty run for half an hour before they were installed at the assembly line.
I don't think so.
The factory's didn't lose 50% of their engines in the old days.
It's just poor quality parts.
Well done
Thanks!
Great info.
I’m building my first small 5.3.
Good luck
Great video, Thank u
Thanks for watching!
Thanks Pete for this and your other engine building tips videos, many future engine builders will have a wealth of knowledge thanks to you and your videos!
Thanks my friend, that's my goal
As an aspiring novice, this sounds so helpful, and worth the money. You definitely earned my sub. I will double check you and get a second opinion, but i do feel far more in formed. Thanks.
Thank you and welcome
I'm just starting a mopar, 400 to 512 stroker engine. I plan on going roller. Thank you for this. I am educating myself on what's necessary, i.e. bronze distributor gear, stronger timing cover, and thrust button. The latter two may be a good topic for a video.
You will do fine. I do have videos on both those topics in 2 different series on building 440's. Good luck on yours!
I love the sewing machine sound of a nice flat tappet valvetrain.
Me too!
Well said, thank you.
Thanks for watching!
During assembly make sure all lifters move freely
Yes
I'll stick to my flat tappet thank you. All I'm seeing with rollers is all the needle bearing failures in the roller wiping out cams left and right. Just ask all the Hemi 5.7 and 6.4 guys.
An engine that has problem with rollers is usually the result of selecting wrong or cheap parts.
That's because they bought cheap Chinese made hydraulic roller lifters.
The Ford Racing hydraulic roller lifters in my 331 small block Ford with an X cam went over 250,000 miles with no problems and I only rebuilt it because the rings were shot.
Funny how the OEM's built flat-tappet engines for decades without all the break-in hoops to jump through. What changed?
I don't know, but I've never had a flat tappet fail
@@PetesGaragedidn’t you say there’s a 50% failure rate?
Compare a factory flat tappet lobe to pretty much any 'aftermarket Performance ' lobe, thats the difference!
Open a comp cataloge, look at the specs of an XE lobed cam as compared to one of their factory copy cams with similar @50 duration numbers, check the lift and .006" duration number differences and you will see exactly what changed.
Happy Thanksgiving 😊 😃
Same to you!
Can you discuss the roller rocker benefits in some future episode?
Yes
Great info
Thanks for watching!
Thanks you for this video. Just preparing to break in a 340 flat tapped solid lifter cam and lifters. My question is using breaking valve springs(60-70 lbs). Currently on my speedmaster heads are some custom “ beehive” shaped springs rated at 230 lbs ( closed).
As long as they do everything else correctly, lube, pre-oiling, ensuring immediate startup, is using a breaking valve spring worth the time and the money? Kirt
No, but I follow the cam manufacturers break-in instructions.
Just getting close to running my rebuilt 350 Chevy. I got to thinking, why doesn’t the “biggie” performance cam/lifter manufacturers set up a thermal cycling/oiling fixture, and using the fixture and simulated engine warm up thermal cycles, break the cam & lifters in, then package/ship a matched set to their customers, identifying which lifters go with which cam lobe? It seems, in today’s World, that would go a long way towards ending failures? And, my Comp Cam paperwork tells me of a nitriding process I could send it in to have done - too late, my cam’s in. It also talks of a lifter bore groove - but I can’t buy that tool & do it now, as I’m partially assembled and can’t risk shavings now. For a guy rebuilding a one-off motor (shade tree week-end guy, doing one motor) I wish I’d have known these details. Anyway - seems to me the aftermarket world is slacking a bit . . . And machine shops for not grooving the engine lifter bores at machining ( they never mentioned it). Thoughts?
If they broke in the cam they'd have to double if not triple the price. If you don't have real high spring seat pressures it will be ok
Well I’m running Brodix Ik 200 heads and I’m nervous about the spring pressure. I got another idea ; could the cams & lifters be made of tool steel, perhaps? You said the failure rate is 50%, that just scares the hell out of me. Also, a question; if you pre-oil your engine before start up, won’t you “wash” the special lube off the lobes?
Will I need to install a servo if I upgrade to a stage 2
I'm not sure what you mean
So half the cars that were manufactured with flat tappet cams back in the day failed their cams?
No, they were not high performance engines with high spring seat forces
Smart man. A critical thinking man.
Thanks my friend
Hi Pete excellent informative video. I’ve watched a few machine shop videos and cams being ruined prematurely on Dyno or initial break in. Have you come across cam failure concerning Rockwell hardness on the cam or the lifter of flat tappet cams? You are using oil with zinc on break in do you used a zinc based oil as your primary oil after break in? My questions might be totally irrelevant if so tell me I’m no engine builder by any stretch of the imagination just a retired jet engine mechanic ( Navy ) I know you are ( Air Force ) but I’m interested in learning. Thank you for sharing knowledge . Artie. 👍🇺🇸
It is difficult to do the Rockwell test on all lobes since it is a destructive test. I always use a zinc oil for break-in and for every oil change after.
@@PetesGarage thanks Pete for the reply. 👍
What about solid lifters with oil holes drill in the bottom?
I don't think that would work
Google EDM Lifters. They've been around for a while. @@PetesGarage
Those are solid lifters for high RPM performance applications
For peace of mind, I would only run EDM lifters in ALL my flat tappet motors. Everything I've read about them has been positive. @@PetesGarage
@@troymullin3684 EDM hole puts more load on the lifter face- only an offset EDM may be useful.
Thanks for the info. What about using lighter springs on a high lift flat tappt cam for breakin?
Yup, tried all that. Even the manufacturers won't commit to help
Happy T-Day Pete! For clarification, i reverse the drill for oil priming on a Chevy small block? Thanks.
Happy T-Day to you! No, I said to make sure you know which way it turns
Bottom line: Oil properties have changed over the years. YOU CAN'T RISK A FLAT TAPPET CAM FAILER! Play it safe and remove the risk factor and go full roller! It's just what you have to do now, face it!
I agree, but it's up to the owner
You can still buy oil for flat tappet cams. The issue is 5 to 10 bucks more a quart. So, pay up front or on the back.
Why choose a flat tappet over roller? For this moment it’s PRICE.
That's what the customer wanted
@@PetesGarage I meant for me lol
Go with a roller
@@PetesGarage isn’t a roller cam, roller lifters and roller rockers/springs almost a grand?
How long I shoud run the SAE 30 Break in oil ?
30 minutes
Interesting information! I have a question for you, I have a marine 502, one day It would not rev up but to 2700 - 2800 RPM, there is compression, fuel pressure, power to the injectors, to the spark plugs, ECM checked good, dont know what else to think of. Now Im thinking about some bad lifters, could it be possible that one or more lifters went bad out of the blue? and the valve is not opening? I got #3 and # 2 cylinders dead. Thank you in advance
Could be lifters or stuck valves
@@PetesGarage Thanks for the reply. When you say lifters (they are not worn out) could it be they are not getting charged with oil resulting in not opening the valve enough?
Thanks for the tips Pete!
Aren't all the Jeep 4.0 and 4.2 I6 engines flat tappet?
I'm not sure, that's a great question
Yes, they are.
nice job Pete
Thanks 👍
great job pete, whats the 440 for ?
'69 Roadrunner
nice@@PetesGarage
Flat tappet is quieter than roller? Hmm.
Just broke in my Isky 570 lift on 1.5, break in oil and stopped 7 mins in to adjust lash. Cold lash estimate was wrong, started clacking when hot. Once lashed hot all good.
Big blocks tend to be noisy no matter what
If you are using a high lift flat tappet with double valve springs do you remove inner springs for break in I've never had to now they say I must for a 383 with a 572 lift cam
11:00 very important information 🍻
Exactly
Sorry for my lack of understanding but isn't the oil pump connected to / driven by either the crankshaft or the cam? How can you spin the oil pump with a drill and not have it turn the crankshaft / cam??
This engine has an intermediate shaft that goes between the crank and oil pump. The pump is not connected to anything without the drive gear, usually on the distributor or another shaft.
@@PetesGarage The intermediate shaft is between the camshaft and the oil pump
You don't Know, What you don't know,
Until you have years/decades of experience, with anything mechanical.
Thank god for RUclips,
Before that it was word of mouth & Information moved very slow...
I had to learn the hard way...lol
Success rate with roller, I agree with you but... You know you can open a valve riding a flat tappet lifter faster/longer than a roller, right?
If you put a torque wrench on two valve trains, you'd never be able to tell the difference between roller and flat tappet valve train.
Thanks for the info!
Sucks you have to take a loan out to stop camshaft destruction.
It sure does
I guess for inline engines you can do away with the oil pump cranking procedure by pouring generous amounts of oil over the camshaft and tappets.
I would feel safer priming any engine first
When talking about the taper on the cam lobes, and saying the lifters will hammer down the high side, you forgot 1 very VERY important part. The lifters. The lifters must have a proper crown ground on the bottom that matches the taper of the cam lobe. This is a necessity for rotation, and it also keeps the lifter off the edge of the cam. You'll have half the lofter face in contact with half the cam lobe.
I believe I mention that
Why wouldnt you pull the distributor and run the oil pump before you go to break it in, then at least the oil is there when you hit it.
I always prime the engine before. I think I did it in a previous video
Dumb question, but anyone ever wonder how it is a roller cam can be ground with such precision & surface finish it doesn't need break in, but a flat tappet cam "does"? If anything, a flat tappet takes up [minor] angular slop, whereas a roller needs lifter bore centers dead nuts square to cam tunnel or... axles don't load evenly, things can spread, and little bearings get scattered about after a time when it finally gives way. Either way, anyone building consider this: as the block goes, so can the cam. Obviously, no break in oil on earth will fix bad taper or crown, but it can burnish things/change ra.. There is no doubt initial lubricant applied to any machine parts leaves a huge fingerprint where longevity is concerned - I like something in the moly family for flat tappet cam lobes on first startup.
As for that first ten seconds, a thing the marine world knows well: prelube pump. Needs its own pickup [I like about one inch off bottom], a lockout relay [fuel pressure switch control works most engines], and a check valve so main pump output feeds as designed/doesn't suffer bypass back to sump. Pressure? Just enough to get oil to the top of the block is fine.
No, it has to do with the surface hardness. Marine applications always have redundancies, like aviation
My flat tappet has been noisy for 6yrs.
50% cam failure rate?? Did I hear that correctly?
If you’re having a 50% failure rate, you’re doing something wrong.
Maybe 8%! If that! 2-5% would be expected.
You heard wrong. It can be 50/50 if you have high spring seat pressure and do not follow the manufacturers recommendations for break-in
Why then back in the 70 the factory never did this I put cams never broke then in mopar performance I think cheap cores china metal not pure back in the day everthing usa steel
Yup
None of this really makes sense. The world has hundreds of millions of cars running that have never had any cam, lifter problems. It looks like the big 3 don't know anything?
I agree with you. But when you use bigger cams and valves springs with higher seat pressures, it's no longer like stock from the factory. All cam manufacturers recommend a break-in procedure. Back in the day the owners manual for cars had a recommended break-in period and procedure.