I've built two engines with flat tappet failures: AMC 401, circa 1990. Ford 390FE, circa 1995. Both had Crane Cam & lifters. Both engines were built with break in oil additives and correct engine break in procedures. Both engines suffered flat tappet failure almost immediately. This was extremely frustrating to me as these engines were common builds where I had never had a problem before using the same parts, oils and techniques, but earlier, in the 80s. When I screw up, I want to understand WTH I did wrong, so I don't do it again. Literally for decades, I have been beating myself for what I did wrong on my best friend's AMC 401 and my boss' 390. Thanks to Powell Machining for convincing me, and other conscientious engine builders, that we very likely didn't screw up. Well done gentlemen.
i experienced the same thing, i failed to run the correct oil for flat tappets, you have to run delvac extreme diesel oil of rotella four diesel oil, it has the additives the flat tappet needs to survive.
This is why we all should use smaller shops . This man cares and knows he can't make a living sending out bad products. After 3 bad experiences with the big guys I went back to my local grinder problem solved!
My exposure to this whole thing is My friend in Washington has a cam grinding shop tells me yes he is seeing exact same thing , he actually grinds lifters too . Im going roller in my 401 AMC though. He said yet the hardness isn't the issue.. He has maybe 40 years experiences in cam shops as employee and Owner on them seen and knowns it all. We had a candid conversation and he thinks it has to be the lubrication . I worked for him in a machine shop in the 70-80's, and we did tones of engines, all kinds Just throw it in and drive around the block and your engine if "broken in ready for 200K miles. Never lost one cam and never needed to 2000RPM for 30 minutes routines either. So the factor we all know is, " oil chemistry has changed!
I believe you hit the nail on the head with one word, "Metallurgy". During the 60s-80s I've broken in countless flat tappet cams, and only had an issue with literally a hand full. But if you think about the decline of the US steel industry from the mid 70s to its peak decline in the late 80s it has to make you think, especially since the flat tappet issues really became prevalent in the 90s. I totally agree with what you've found as far as lifter machining and finnish issues, and believe the it is more critical because of the "quality" of steel today, and we all know where the vast majority of steel is manufactured today. I enjoy your videos, Thank you Sir!
The reason for such widespread poor quality in flat tappet lifters is simple: Way back in the day, and for decades, ALL mass produced engines used flat tappet cams, so the manufacturers of lifters for flat tappet cams HAD TO keep quality and quality control extremely high. Any lifter manufacturer who failed to do this for all of the major auto makers would've lost all of their business........and would be put completely out of business. But when all of the auto makers started transitioning over to roller cams, to the point NONE OF THEM ( to my knowledge ) are using flat tappet cams in quite some time, the major liability against the lifter manufacturers ( for flat tappet systems ) also went away. This means the overwhelming vast majority of business for lifter manufacturers is for roller lifters. Even though flat tappet engines are still popular among hot rodders, racers, and everyday enthusiasts who want to build or restore engines using flat tappet cams, they still only make up a tiny percentage when compared to all of the big auto makers who literally have millions of engines built that require roller cams. There isn't a single auto maker today who demands lifters in their new engines that use a flat tappet system. So the lifter manufacturers simply don't have the widespread liability as they did back when they had to step up to the plate & mass produce lifters for flat tappet cams way back in the day. Way back then, if a lifter manufacturer shipped bad lifters for flat tappet cams to any major auto maker, that major auto maker would've had the time & money to sue the hell out of them. But nowadays, it's down to mere individual engine builders & machinists, and they pose no real threat to the lifter manufacturers in the way of "massive lawsuits". So the makers of these lifters for flat tappet cams nowadays simply don't give a damn about "the little guys" everywhere. Lawsuits are basically won or lost by how much time, effort, and MONEY you have to put up for a legal battle in court. The lifter manufacturers have far more money to defend themselves in court against "some individual engine builder or machine shop". It's a damned shame.
After seeing the magnified view finer and the amount of junk in the material, I agree that it is a metallurgical problem. I am a retired Metallurgist and worked in the 70s in the laboratory of a company making landing gears for commercial and military aircraft. All of the steel forgings we used were of single or double vacuum arc remelt alloy steel. We never saw junk in the metallurgical samples like I see in this video. Now I do agree with Daniel that it can be imbedded from the grinding process due to the oil or wheel being contaminated by grinding a lifter that was made from a crappy batch of steel. These particles of junk can be hard as diamond and cause the accelerated wear. The big problem is there is no traceability of heats of material to parts like we had in the aircraft industry. That is why the failures are so random and scattered over all of the manufactures. Daniel's answer is the only one. Stop using/mandating flat tappet cams.
Yes, I agree with you guys 100%, the evidence is right there for us all to see. But THE REASON this is happening, is because the vast majority of business with these lifter manufacturers is with the major auto makers, and they all use roller cams nowadays. Not to mention all of the individuals who also chose to go with roller cams. That leaves the market for lifters to be made for flat tappet very small by comparison. The lifter manufacturers HAD TO hold flat tappet lifters to much higher standards back when all of the auto makers were using flat tappet cams. But that's old history now, and these lifter manufacturers know that individual engine builders & machinists don't have the power that the major auto makers do........so they get away with murder. If the major auto makers were still using flat tappet cams, do ya honestly believe this problem would still exist with lifters like we're seeing everywhere now? HELL NO. The major auto makers have the power to sue the living sh*t out of them. But the little guy doesn't. @@budehrmann5902
totally agree - i have had 2 very mild 4 barrel cams go flat in less than 50 miles each - both Isky cams with cheap SBI hyd lifters. Used Lucas ZDDP break-in oil. Cam held up but lifters just disintegrated like the metal in the lifter was sintered and not well grained iron. Ran another Isky cam with expensive Melling hyd lifters (same exact engine and Lucas break-in) - no problems. Made in America doesn’t mean the steel that the lifter was machined/ground with was made in America.
@@powellmachineinc3179 I'm gonna help hopefully tha last stage was a acid cleaner sorta but it's nasty for environment ive said too much down the rabbit blue pill red pill swamp U go
2 issues that I see is many people run a modern detergent oil and add an additive to it, we always ran a non detergent oil with GM Eos additive. The other problem I see is that many people nowadays think more Spring pressure is better and it's not good for flat tap at cams.
@@dennisyoung4631years ago on Chevrolet small-block all the connecting rods on the journal side had squirt holes, when the rod came around it was Squirt oil on the bottom of the cylinder wall and on the camshaft, when they done away with the holes in the rod bearings and the squirt holes in the rods a lot of camshafts were going bad. I still machine my rods for small block Chevrolet with squirt holes, if I cannot find bearings with the factory hole I will machine holes in the bearings, do some research on Old School small blocks it's funny that they ran over 200,000 Mi without no problem with flat tappet camshaft.
Here's an experience i had many years ago: building an engine for a buddy's dirt-track stocker: he finished 3rd in points for the season with a seasoned short-block that had served duty for a few years in his cousins B-mod... He melted some pistons after the last race of the season, necessitating a rebuild. Sent the block off to a (supposedly) reputable machine shop to get out checked out, trued up and gotten ready to go... Went to put it all together and set the valves and.... something wasn't quite right. Way different settings from front to back on the rocker adjustments. And even worse, more different from bank to bank. What we ended up figuring out, after much cussing, finageling and measuring, was not only did both deck surfaces run uphill, one side front to back and the other side back to front, but the cam bore was offset to one side of the block by nearly 1/8"!!!! And that was from the factory from Chevrolet! Smokey Yunick, in his chevy engine builder's Bible, said maybe one in every 8 factory chevy heads was actually worth building due to casting and machining issues... after that experience, i believe him. Now what's crazier... I made a set of custom pushrods to "fix" the valvetrain issues on that engine. Literally hand made every pushrod to center the adjustments. Every single one of them was different. I built that engine in 2012. He ran it in his stock car for one season, then we pulled it and stuck it in his square body chevy truck where it regularly sees 8,000 RPM beatings to this day... with some severely F'd up valvetrain geometry going on. Point is, those old castings weren't always great. Hence the need for the "tolerances" and the crown you were talking about.
As a Toolmaker with 30 years experience. I have seen this on multiple occasions. What you describe as "Flaking" is what is called Lamination. This can be in the Raw material from the pour at the steel mill OR it can be created in the HEAT TREATING. This looks to me being the Heat Treating at too HIGH a temperature which causes Decarboning spots or patches. These test at the correct Rockwell hardness but are actually brittle and can separate from it like flakes. Ford currently has a Recall on Godzilla engines for the rollers flaking/delaminating in less than 10k miles.
I'm with you 100%. One day last spring I took two identical flat tappet spec engines to the dyno for cam break-in and tuning. We did everything the same on both engines. One engine did fine, and the other engine wiped out a few cam lobes and lifters during break-in. The sanctioning body doesn't want to hear it.
Coming from a roller bearing background, you are correct sir regarding lifter crowning and surface finish. The crown also helps prevent “end effect” and balances the subsurface stress across the contact area. Grind burn is another boogie man that is hard to detect but will cause early failure. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge, you and your son are true Craftsmen that not only know How but also Why!
I am 76. I have been doing this for 60 years. In the past we just put in a cam and lifters with no problems. No special oil or any of this now. Recently I had a Summit cam go flat after about 1.5 years. I decided to put in a comp cams cam and spend a little extra money for no problems. One cam after another went flat immediately. Finally, after about 3 months I saw a video which mentioned Diamond Like Coating (DLC). On my 4th cam I called Summit and requested an exchange of normal lifters for my new cam to DLC lifters. They are only about $15.00 more. Suddenly, I have no more problems. I have had the lifters out as the head gaskets also went. They look like they came out of the box unused and the cam looks like it was polished. Look at the advertising Summit is now doing on DLC lifters. They work. It is so hard and slippery that it does not wear and just slips over the cam. They are using DLC on piston pins also. The coating does not wear, the metal underneath has to fail. Why not put DLC on crank journals like nitride? BUY DLC LIFTERS.
Yes, I just today learned about the DLC lifters. I Too recall many engines in the 70's 80's, we put cams in , 5 years in a machine shop and do not recall one cam failure, NO special oil, Nothing. I had a 0.575" Lift cam, duel springs in my 428, never once a problem. Ran like new always. Do fear the flat tappet setup is going the way of the dodo bird. It's Not too a big thing, rollers are reliable. Definitely more monies, a few block holes for a thrust plate addition, big deal. It's well known how to do this MOD stuff.
I'm sorry to hear you've gotten out of the flat tappet business. I'm probably resposible for some of the people calling you because I always sent them your way when the were worried about building a flat tappet cam motor. You are the only person I've seen actually look at all the machining specs and not just blame the heat treat or break in proceedure. It is a shame what has become of this industry. If the manufactures don't want to make a quality flat tappet they need get out of the business, let the market shrink and the cost go up or the those willing to do a proper job. There are too many high value engines that have no roller option. People building those engine will pay what ever it takes to get a quality cam and lifters.
Auto part quality has been nosediving for a decade now. Ive seen multiple AC Delco brand new EGR valves fail within a hundred miles, struts blowing out every 30k miles, etc. Usually it is made in China, but it is sad to see the quality crisis reaching even internal engine parts.......
Glad to hear from an expert discussing flat tappet issues. As a Northernor I find it a little stressful listening to the drawl but the knowledge makes it worth the listen 🙂
#1 definitely not a expert, #2 I understand, it actually took sum getting use to listening to myself, lol #3 I had a supervisor from Boston once, we all made fun of his "Yankee talk"
I'm from Coastal Maine, spent 30 years on my lobster boat, and I can tell you I sound like I should. LOL! Thanks for your time, compared to me you are an expert, I appreciate your knowledge, and your time given to us to help.
Hate to see you stop FT videos, but I definitely understand why. But you have been the only one that I believed because you explained everything so well and you backed it up with testing that you showed. Thanks menny times over for your efforts.
Hey Daniel, Tim here, THAT sir, was an AWESOME, in depth, look at what the hell is happening......switching to a roller wud be GREAT for me, but the cost, is just to much (I have a Pontiac 455).....I haven't had any flat tappet issues yet, but my stuff has been together for a good while, I have a bigger flat tappet custom ground cam I cud stuff in, that I purchased a cupla yrs ago, but I'm hesitant, cuz of all the BS......to switch to a roller set up on my Poncho, wud be drastically higher cost than any SBC, SBF, etc....cam, lifters, then pushrods, wud end up being close to $2k.....OMG!!!... sorry I digress, but this vid explained ALOT!!!..and I'm a machinist need type, and understood all ur topics...TY sir!!!...ENJOYED IT!!! PEACE to you sir!!
If your current cam is working, LEAVE IT IN and don't change what you're doing. That new cam might work, or could be a guaranteed failure, such is the Russian roulette world of flat tappets.
@yarrdayarrdayarrda thanks my brother, I appreciate ur input......that's been my mind set, but the bigger dude cud net me 10:90's on pump gas.....that's my only gripe.....I'm at 7 flat in 1/8, 11:0's in qtr, just kinda want that 10:90 in my pocket.....but I have to agree, ain't worth blowing it up.......car is strong, and consistent...
This gentleman understands the geometry and fit of engine parts. The cam has to ride up under the lifter. push it up to valve open, and continue to turn and allow it to return to valve closed position. If the cam is egg shaped in the sense the lobe is not concentric on its face, the lifter will be gouged or worn in one spot. Looking at the lobe from the end of the cam it does have an egg shaped appearance for the eccentric that lifts the lifter and valve. However if you hold the cam lengthwise the lobe of the cam should be finished where it engages the significant face of the cam and is able to rotate the lifter as well as lift it. This is where Mr. Powell is so knowledgeable, so inciteful as to how the cam running the length of the engine and the lifter in the bore will determine if it runs smooth, true and rotates or does not. Bravo.
I see so many people posting that the cam and lifters failed on brand new builds. The information in this video is very informative and seems spot on to what the situation is. I've shared it many times with those who have had instant lifter failure.
I hope all the lifter manufacturers see this video and friggin DO something! I run flat tappet only. Run Rhoads Lifters only. How do they do it? Never a failure in 40 years. On a Pontiac I can run any lift, duration and LSA I want, break them in under full 320 LB open spring pressure with only VR1 oil and assembly lube and they work every time. How does Jack Rhoads do it? My lifters always come in beautifully ground to a point in the middle. Overlapping circular swirl pattern. Kinda looks like a flower 🌺 when you look at them. Why can no one else do it anymore? I don’t have $2500 a motor to go in with rollers. So Me, Jack Rhoads, Harland, and The Smith Bros. are gonna keep “clicking” down the road in a flat tappet VVT 461 Pontiac. With absolute valve train control. They way we have for 40 years. Recon I best go buy me some cams and lifters before er’body quits. Never run a lifter that doesn’t have a snap ring keeper. Staples are for paper! And, thank you for going further than anyone else’s to bring truth and light to the issue! 😉
I appreciate your information and knowledge. I met one of the cam techs at the comp cams booth at cruising the coast, and I asked him what they were find to be the problem with the lifters/ cams. What he told me was that it came down to the oil. That a break in oil had to be used. Then continue to use an oil with enough zddp, and went on further to say that adding a supplement to the oil wasn’t a viable option as most oils now have enough detergents that it is constantly washing the added zddp off. He also said that the oils with enough zddp in them didn’t benefit from more,so apparently enough zddp is enough and more isn’t necessary. I don’t know Whether that is the failure problem or not, but that is what he told me. I have mild flat tappet to install and break in soon, I have purchased proper break in lube for the install and break in oil, and I’ll have a short prayer service before I fire it up. Thanks again for sharing your findings and knowledge.
I know that zinc imbeds itself into the steel. It sounds like a reasonable explanation. But I don't believe it. Were it a sudden change in the oil additives every single car with a flat-tappet that was broken in then run on standard oil would die right away. Its not across the board like that. Its random. You never know which or why. This tells me its multiple problems in manufacturing. Too course of a grind. Re-conditioned lifters sold as new that are the wrong height (for fixed rod applications). Not enough dome. Too much dome. Too little to reduce foreign contamination while grinding. Figure 1 in 100 aren't done right, in one way or another and individually cause no issues. But 1 in a thousand will have 2 issues. 1 in 10,000 have 3 issues. Use 16 lifters in a build and even with those low numbers you have a 1 in 625 chance that your cam gets wiped. Your a machine shop that does hundreds a year? You use an bad (cheap) parts supplier and you can see how suddenly its a flat tappet crisis. No, I don't believe the oil. What I do believe is that manufacturers trying to make margin aren't checking every single lifter. Their low price sells more, but 1 out of every 50 or 100 wipes a cam. Find me many companies that would raise their hand and write a check to every customer in the last 5 years that wiped a cam because of poor quality lifters. Nope. "Low oil additives" is a much less costly explanation.
@@toddknowsnothing6465 I asked the same question about what about all the lifters running around on the modern oil. I was told that it was primarily a problem when doing the break in. I don’t know, I’m not a metallurgist, nor machinists, I’m a technician and hot rodder. I’m about to install a new Comp cams and lifter set into a fresh built engine. All I can do is check off all of the boxes and make sure I’m doing it correctly and 🙏🏼 for the best.
Great video we need more guys like you that care and do great work with cam and lifters I purchased a Howard cam kit for a big block Chevy. It lasted 40 minutes of run time. they said it was due to improper break in. Thanks for all you do for us racers
Seems like what they all say and will not admit it.........remember years ago guys changing cams/lifters ....and did not even know you had to break -in the cam and lived a long time!!....sad times quality.
Have 70 F-250 that was ready for a rebuilt mild build FE installation. This was over a year ago. Thankfully while looking into different zinc break in additives I came across a few break in scenario's where guys were wiping out there engines. Well one blog led to another to where I was having sleepless nights in my build. Decided to put my installation plans on hold and not roll the dice. Started almost from scratch and spent close to 2500.00 to go with a Howard's cams and lifters roller set up. I still keep up on this scenario and know I made the right choice. Shame on all the name brand entities out there, most of them bought and sold to China ect., knowingly selling shoddy lifters to the public and letting them blindly go forward on there build just to have them destroy there engine during break in and flushing their hard earned money down the drain. If the industry doesn't want to sell flat tappet cams anymore then don't. Quit selling off your inventory with questionable lifters at the customers expense and grief.
@@halseyknox Adding ZDDK is a poor idea. The oil you mixed it with was NOT formulated to accept it, zinc and the detergents in other oils that are Not formulated for break in, particulate ions remove its ability to lubricate. Has a lot to do with chemistry..
Thank you for your words of experience. You made me realize how critical it is for all elements of the design to work together, and most importantly why lifter breakin is so very important. ZDDP is necessary on a flat lifter engine forever, a given. But breakin is necessary because the crown of the lifter must seat into the cam face so there is a uniform distribution of load across each. The lifter can be ground too smooth. Oil and ZDDP must remain on the contact surface. Microscopic Gooves allow it to be there, just as the grooves in a cylinder bore retain oil for the rings. When i look at the cam and lifters removed from my 318 after 100k+ miles, there is a trace of contact around the lifter, but full face contact at the high end. I can't measure it, but i expect the face of the cam has the same microscopic contour ss the base of the respective lifter. I'm building a street engine, not a race engine. New Torquer Flat lifter cam and lifters, ZDDP, correct load springs & proper breakin; it will be fine.
As a young man in a production rebuild shop, I too would grind tappets with an old grinder. The ways were so worn out I tightened them after each set. Mostly stovebolt Chevys, flathead 6 and 8's, of course every V8 too which didn't buy new. That machine would vibrate and shake all the way through. Those lifters were always rough and scratchy. Usually set at 3 which I believed was degrees. This was 60/80's and you know what, there wasn't a problem very often. These were all 60/70# seat force and say 220 open (?) I Those days no body cared because of the way old days formans. Just get it done. Some race stuff came in and we could get the finish better but just a different time, materials and the oils weren't very good but worked okay then. So different.
Thanks for posting. Always enjoy the information you share. Concerning the cams, years ago I drove all kinds of junker cars. A few times, a lifter would go (click - click) so I would pull it out, go to one of my friend's garage and pick out an old lifter out of his scrap box that wasn't too worn, and stick it back in. Never had a problem with that, I would get another two or three years out of the car with no lifter problems. I don't think I wold want to do that today ?? Best Regards - Mike
The reason many of us want flat tappet cam's is because we don't want to spend a 1000 plus dollars for a roller cam and lifters, I personally have never lost a lobe on a flat target cam, and I find it interesting that there have been tens of MILLIONS of flat tappet comes that have worked flawlessly for decades.
I know it sucks but you can spend that $1,000 on the front end or spend it after the flat tappet trashes your new engine. This is why I specifically hunted down a factory roller cam block for my 350chev build and I can use oem style roller lifters. My 1975 Ford 460 is a different story, if I ever put a cam in it I will probobly have to just bend over and pay the extortion.
@@powellmachineinc3179 you must be thinking of your cost as a machine shop not ours......I don't know of a set of retrofit roller lifters that are under $600.....but like I said in another post you can pay it the first time or the second time after the flat tappet fails.
@@powellmachineinc3179actually alot more than that to retrofit a roller cam!!!!! You need cam buttons and thrust bearings, adjustable valve train or custom length push rods because most later 460's have non adjustable valve train. Sorry not going to reinvent the wheel to build a stock 460
@@funkysawmanwright5077. You forgot lifter bore braces. It costs $2500 to retrofit a Pontiac. And you can go into the forums and see roller lifter failure and where the big rollers rip the lifter bores out of the blocks. Roller is not a magic bullet. At all. It’s merely another, more costly avenue, with its own issues to navigate, that if done correctly, may yield a better result. That is a long, steep haul for a “Maybe”.
I just came in from the shop , another late one … lol , So there is nothin better that havin a bit of wind-down time and listening to one of your videos , they are so informative . Yer never done learnin in this trade , I just can’t get enough ….. lol
@@powellmachineinc3179. Yeah but a lot of people can't afford to go roller. There have been some roller lifter failures. And for smaller cams (under about 280° advertised duration) a flat tappet is actually more aggressive (area under the curve). They should just do them right again like they're supposed to! Heck charge a slight bit more for the attention to detail!
I have had lifters ground 40 years ago on an international Scout 304 V8 . It was more common place at the time to refurbish lifters . Well , I cant blame you guys for bailing out on the flat tappet cam and lifter ordeal . Interesting explanation of this subject in detail .Id concur too smooth a finish on lifter base or foot , causes the lifter to slide on the ramp , instead of proper rotation . Btw , think about synthetic oils and the additives to improve lubricity . The lifters are able to slide instead and diminished rotation is the result . Another example seen is GM and Dodge roller lifters with a destroyed roller , that looks like a flat tappet failure . The roller is flattened and cam lobe 8s destroyed . Roller slipping and not rolling . Roller is sliding on the cam lobe , not rolling . The engine oil and the lubricity factor must be looked at .
I've never had a failure, but i use stock ratio rockers and stock springs on my stuff, mostly because im cheap. But i believe alot of the failures seen are people using high ratio rockers and or heavy springs. Also, there's alot of social media mechanics that think they know what their doing, and when they find they don't, it goes viral.
🤣🤣🤣. So what about the 1000’s of cams that failed on STOCK LIFTERS AND SPRINGS!! You talk about people on social media talking about stuff they don’t know, and here you are, talking on social media on something you don’t know about. No, a lot of the failures are NOT on high ratio rockers and high spring rates, most people use “break in springs” (springs that are stock pressures) when breaking in. So they would NOT HAVE spring pressure being an issue. Stop talking on social about things you don’t understand! Especially when you call others out for doing the same!! LMAO. WOW. the lack of self awareness!!
Stumbled on this video while searching for info on FT cams and lifters. Sorry to find out you quit doing that. Thought I had found somebody who had finally figured this nonsense out, and was more or less local to boot. Thanks for all the info you are providing.
I just rebuilt my old Mercruiser motor (GM 3.0) and my worry about aftermarket cams and lifters is how I discovered your channel. It's together and runs great, but going out in the middle of Lake Michigan with the thought of lifter failure is always in the back of my mind. I don't know if anybody makes a roller cam for this motor, but I do regret not looking into it. P.S. the reason for rebuild is because two lobes were disappearing, and lifter noise was getting worse.
Daniel, I have a Continental TSIO 520 in my Cessna. I’ve experienced so many flat tappet lifter failures it’s ridiculous! Every 25 hour oil change the drain the oil through a 10 micron filter, cut open and inspect the oil filter and have a oil sample taken for analysis. All in an effort to catch the signs of early flat tappet spalling! I’ve already had to overhaul this $55K air cooled, 520 CI, 6 cylinder twice for spalled lifters that damaged the cam! This lifter debacle is such BS! One would think the engine manufacturers would be interested in solving this widespread issue but apparently not. Keep up the good work and thanks for the info! Jim Gandee
Good video. Such a stupid problem to have in 2023. Bummer that my Carolina Corvair can't do roller cams without big mods. I reused my low-mileage cam & lifters on a recent rebuild.
What I could never figure out is WHY the incidence of Flat Tappet problems seemed to begin skyrocketing a few years back ? I mean we used to hear of a few ? But then it was like a light switch being flipped somewhere and failures went through the roof ? Just seemed that way to me anyways ?
Ya yer right , remember back in the ‘80s , I was just a small shop but sold hundreds and hundreds of cams and lifters for small chevs and I can only remember havin like 2 or3 complaints. And we were sellin cam, lifters timing set and gaskets for 150 bucks . But like you said , what the hell happened all of a sudden .
Combination of oil additive changes by the EPA, cheap lifters from foreign countries, and poor quality control by cam manufacturers, and workers that don’t care about quality. Jmo
my guess is everyone went to CNC machines and they just put a "button pusher" in there to operate it. If everyone is doing this its easy to stack errors in taper, lifter crown, etc etc. Before everything was done on a CNC an actual machinist had to watch that dial indicator to make sure it stayed in spec and then they QC checked it after it was done as well. Today its just "oh the CNC does all the work".
Mr. Daniel, it's Melissa's husband here, There are times that newer technology makes sense & that goes with many things in life. Much of the old ways are good as well, that said this is strictly my opinion, " When it makes sense and it is an Improvement to a common Problem"then were good. This is why we provide good service both to protect ourselves & our customers. Technology today by way of Rollers is the way to go. OHCams with direct rocker arm contact should be Roller as well but that can be debated with oil technology etc. I aint that smart so I stay away from those types of arguments. That's all I have sir.
Back when I was house framing, we had a choice between Korean Sinker (16 penny nail) and US Steel. I always got the US Steel, you could hit a US steel Sinker a bit offset and fine, a Korean sinker had to be 100% perfect blow or it bent. Overseas can do lower quality cheaper than we can but not good quality.
I really appreciate you doing this video. I had to build a couple of engines for FREE because the customer Didn't believe me. After a while they got the message. But it really hurt me trying to protect my business for something that wasn't my fault. I'm sure there are others that went through this... But yeah, we are ALL ROLLER CAM PEOPLE NOW.... OR NOTHING. !!! 💯
I have used Lunati flat tappet cams and lifters with no problems, but I used everything exactly as they recommended. Correct spring rate, rocker ratio, and within the specified RPM range (max 6800). I was able to race one engine for 15 seasons (about 2000 passes) with little cam or lifter wear. I had more problems when I went to a Comp roller setup, still staying aroud 6800 rpm max. When I build another, I am goung back to Lunati and another Flat cam.
Lunati is the only one I use never had any problems. Haven't used Crower for awhile but I always had good luck with them. My opinion is comp crane are junk tried some over the years because that's what customer wanted wanted. Seems like we were both disappointed
Roller cams and roller lifters could be made more affordable? Thank you for all the information. Roller like it or not is the future. Rock and Roll it.
its not just the future its the past as well......the last production vehicle to use a flat tappet was the Jeep 4.0 inline 6 engine that was discontinued around 2003. So the oem pressure for quality has not been on the suppliers for almost 2 decades now.
It’s also a problem with older engines. Getting a SBC with rollers isn’t going to be a huge issue, there are many options. But I’m building a 261 Stovebolt and rollers really are not so easy to put in, the lifters are a bit of an odd-duck size and as far as I know nobody grinds a roller cam for one of those.
Guys, if you must use a FT lifter, make sure your machine shop is honing your lifter bores, especially if you plan on running the new DLC treated lifters.
I sure do like the Gaterman lifters I got from you after my flat tappet went down. I would have used your cam, but I the large company let me trade my flat tappet for a cam. If it wasn’t a swap I wouldn’t have used them again. Looking forward to using you for my next 2 builds.
Hey Daniel, I recently installed a Melling flat tappet cam and Comp’s new DLC lifters in a SBC. Broke in fine but ended up having to tear it down for an unrelated issue, the motor had about 3,000 miles on it. Those DLC lifter faces are so hard and smooth they barely spin. I posted some pics on my IG account, the lobe noses looked fine but the ramps and base circles have some strange wear patterns. My machinist inspected them and wasn’t worried, Muscle Car Solutions saw my pics and showed Comp while at Sema, they said it was normal. Kinda crazy though.
@@Midnight_Rider96 mine is working fine, just unusual wear on the cam. I bet I could swap the lifters around and it wouldn’t make a difference. I’ve posted pics on my IG account which is the same handle as it is here.
Big Thx for all the info you Share.....I recently bought (From 2 well Respected Cam companies) 2 sets of Premium $250/set 0.904" Solid flat tappet Lifters....Under magnifying lens, Every Lifter Face had irregular Porosity hole Voids, Arc shaped gouge dents & Questionable chamfer edges.....In discussing these issues with the Cam Co Knowledgeable contacts, Both advised lifter face Porosity voids Are Normal for New cast iron Flat tappet lifter Faces !! .....I Never seen anything this ragged & irregular with 1960's & '70's Lifters & Not going to use these Lifters....Cam Co Lifter Iron Casting & metallurgy Machining QC seems Impossible to obtain short of super Expen$ive Tool steel lifters & No guarantees that combo consistently works normal....I now have a $800 set of quality Lookin Tool Steel lifters & good new Lobe Taper camshaft but Still debating going Roller 1st time on Oem, 10k milage 1969 Hemi block build.....New Flat tappet lifter Face Porosity voids & Arc shaped Gouge dents Doesn't seem Acceptable to me.....I'm expecting 'bout 25 Ra, Porosity Voidless, Nick free lifter Face finish.....Are New lifter Face Voids & irregular Arc shaped scar Dents Normal & Acceptable usable ??
Definitely agree, I know when I built my little street 350 I thought oh budget, flat tappet cam will be ideal, it went flat about a month later, just one lobe so I called the big name manufacturer told them about it, they had me send them that cam and they send a full replacement, said it was most likely a bad part or core, I bought another flat from another company, that one went flat on 3 lobes right after break in, same story called them and asked, they said I either broke it in wrong, or my block was messed up, I said well before I rebuilt it it had 102k miles with a stock cam so how is it the block. Bought a roller… learned my lesson, and won’t ever own another flat tappet, granted this was 20 years ago but I think you’re correct to just avoid them
Best video I've seen yet that explains it. My dirt track engine has been in the car, sitting on the trailer for 20+ years and has not been started and that is the best place for it. $7000 spent on a motor and every year they changed the rules to favor the cheater who were already using the better product and did not get tech inspected.. They were the same people who turned me in when I was not cheating and the track banned me when I requested that they inspect the car that was winning all the races. The track was not going to enforce the rules for the cheater because he was bringing in the fans. He's our boy, we're number one!
@@powellmachineinc3179 Western Pennsylvania is a hotbed for stock car racing and engine machine shop. Everyone wants to blue print the block but very few repairs crank shafts and none of them grinds their own camshaft. This is why they blindly swear allegiance to one manufacturer and one engine builder. Even Pittsburgh Crankshaft Service went out of business. Take a trip to Gaerte Race Engine and see who's engine is on the floor. Oh that's some guy from Western PA, we build all his sprint car, dirt late model, street stock etc.. Why? Because ours makes more hp! But no one can explain why! Same people standing in line in Summitt in Ohio picking up blocks and heads and cranks, thinking they can go home, slap it all together and have a race engine. Only they discover that it is only roughed in and has to be finished before it can be assembled.. 1000 video on RUclips and not one of those genius ever talked about the cam tunnel being in the wrong place . Most people are not smart enough to realize that even after you build what they want, they then try to run pump gas in it.. You can buy anything you want except the gasoline.. No more Sunoco 99 octane gas like we had in 1970.. And if you are going to machine something you need to have one person who knows what they are doing and not let anyone else operate that machine because all they will do is damage the machine and then it won't hold a proper tolerance. I seen people trying to reuse a filter for the coolant and trying to use a coffee filter because there was crap in their coolant.. You have to dress the wheel with a diamond. Some shops just runs it as is.... Thats why you saw that stuff on the lifters..
Sad to hear you getting out of the Flat tappet product & Services......I recently examined under illuminated Magnification a new in box 1976 GM flat tappet Lifter & it's Face looks Perfectly flawless Smooth with No Face surface Porosity Voids or nick/Dents & has a Uniform nick free perimeter edge Chamfer......Every New camshaft Mfg supplied Flat tappet Lifter set face looks Similar to your example of Defective Face finished Porosity voids Pitted & scarred Nicked up faces with Terribly finished edge chamfer.....All the new Cam mfg Lifters actually look like they are literally Carelessly dropped Dumped into a tub of other Bare lifters causes Semi-circle Scars scratches into All the lifter faces.....If New flat Tappet lifter customers would carefully Examine their New lifters they would be Horrified by the Metallurgy face voids Pits & Carelessly handling scar damage....
The number one reason on problems with flat tappets is the reduction on ZDDP by the EPA. Even NASCAR started using rollers in 2008. Today, all cars use roller tappets.
Doubt that. My Buick 455 NEEDS zddp. I’ve forgotten once or twice.. lol, actually more then that. But the engine stills runs. I’m not easy on the car. It sees 4000 every time I shift! And then there the times I let it wrap up to 6200, The car is not babied at all!! I drove it when it -10° out side, and I’ll drive it when it 110°. Always shift at 4000. 5 years later, plenty of abuse later. Cam still opens valves. Switched to diesel oil last year, but was using normal Valvaline 5w30 before someone who told me. I’m still young, and don’t know everything about these old engines. But I have left zddp out of the equation for maybe 6000 miles of hard driving.
With regard to using standard API certified oils, you're right... but I've even used ZDDP fortified oils made specifically for older flat tappet valvetrains. It still doesn't fix the issue. Even stock cam/lifter/spring/rocker packages that used to last 100k miles (and often longer) are now lucky to see 20-30k miles of service, using fortified oils AND lighter weight valves/pushrods.
The EPA had nothing to do with the reduction of ZDDP in engine oils. Manufacturers were federally required to warranty the emissions systems on their vehicles for a minimum of 60K miles. Well, to reduce their warranty failure rates they began reducing ZDDP. There’s absolutely nothing hazardous about ZDDP. I suppose that if you were determined to off yourself you could drink five quarts of Joe Gibbs and sh*t yourself to death but that’s about it. I’ve been a full time technician for over 30 years and I’ve watched the transition from flat tappet to rollers with a particular interest in how the remaining flat cam engines like the 5.7 Chevy were fairing on low ZDDP oils. Bone stock 5.7 Chevys are pretty much dying from rust and other issues instead of massive cam failures. Believe it or not there’s still millions of those 5.7s in service. My guess is that they were broken in back when SG &SF oils were the norm. Both ratings had more than enough ZDDP to protect STOCK flat tappet cams. I’m building a 5.7 in a mint 91 Suburban right now that’s never been opened up since it left the factory. It’s had whatever bulk oil that shops had on hand to use. I wouldn’t recommend it but the owner could shove the old cam & lifters back into it and it’d be fine. It sounds like most of the issues are in the performance realm which I don’t have any vast knowledge about.
Something to think about, I been building hydraulic lifter camshaft motors since the 70s and to date I have had zero cam or lifter issues! ZERO ! NONE ! . Why is that ? My opinion is I say it's a issue of not using enough of the black molly cam brake in grease in the correct areas as there is no such thing as to much of it. Fist off the cam kit only gives you 1 very small packet of the black Molly brake in grease. (that's clearly NOT enough) add to that most people don't use it in the correct areas of the cam lobe or lifter face. I always buy and use a pint can full of the black molly cam brake in grease (Isky is good) that has a ton more zinc in it. I see people on net that only use assembly lube and not use the black molly grease with extra zinc at all, OR watch them fail to put black grease on heavy enough on or not correctly. That plus the biggest word in all engine building is CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN ! You can not just slap a motor tougher in a SAND BOX and expect it to live very long ! I always wash every part and blow each out over 4 times and then lay everything out on a brand new white silk sheet (call me crazy) then I wash everything AGAIN ! for a 5th or 6th time each time blowing everything out with high pressure air till totally dry. Yes it takes more time to assemble, but my motors seem to say tougher when others fail. True I am old school machinist, and I STILL soak all my lifters in oil over night and pump them up one at a time by hand, and yes I DO pre oil the entire motor with a drill just before Install the distributor, call me over kill, but bottom line I just installed my totally rebuilt 67 Vette 327 in my daily driver with a hyd. lifter cam that now has 7,000 miles on it with 65 pounds of oil pressure & NO ISSUES and to me, that's what is all about.
I was always raised to put extra zinc for an oil change with the flat tappet motors. The oil companies have taken the zinc out of oil to make it flow through the roller lifters.
Factory blocks are tough when getting aggressive with flat tap cams. The lifter bores are so out of spec, and the oil isn't as good as it used to be. And not to mention, camshaft break-in is so important. I would always use a 1.3 break in rocker with zinc additive. Great video.
At Pete's Machine he would make sure the tappet and push rod would spin on each of the lifters on engines that he ran tested. Also he would drop of the pressure or open up the clearance (back off adjustment screw or nut) until the valves was clacking and all the lifters was rotating. And in those days he would say the lifters and push rods had to spin in-order to seat in or wear in so they will continue to spin. Now On the flat tappets and cam if it was possible to grind a taper on the cam and a flat at the top of the lobe for so many degrees of duration where the lifter will stop rotation but have the largest tappet and lobe contact surface area- at the highest load point and then return to rotation on the lower load duration might fix that flat cam and lifter issue. Good info thanks for another video.
Why do the people that run this country not care about the quality of the products that we purchase with our hard earned dollars ? This really burns my A$$! They want you to vote for them for what! This is Disgusting that you have to put in this much effort to use a flat tappet cam! On another subject I am from Pa. We lived in Arizona, New Mexico and Tennessee and no one ever knew where I was from. They said I don't have an accent,go figure. That said I could listen to this Guy forever, I love the southern drawl and in women it's hot! I hung with with a guy from Cobra town mountain in Tennessee and this man sounds about the same. Never had a problem with it!!👍👍👍
Apart from designated race classes the only reason anyone would run a flat tappet is cost. I'm currently building an almost standard 340 Mopar and a roller cam is $900 and a set of hyd roller lifters is $1200 for basic ones (in Australia). That hurts !!!!!.
Im glad we are finally getting over the oil/break in mythology. The real issue is poor quality manufacturing. We shouldnt let the manufacturers off the hook with this
I worked flat tapped grinder where I am in Australia . The biggest problem we found was surface finish . We had a brand new set from GM Ford etc to use as masters . Time consuming no Money and always your fault .This was in the 70s 😢looking at your images they have not ground all the scale out from hardening
At this point seeing what the camera shows, flat tappet cams are history. You said it's not "a" problem, it's multiple problems. And any one of them will eat parts I suspect. I would not play Russian Roulette with expensive parts and machining. I just hope Roller cams/lifters aren't next. Hopefully mfgs that can't keep tolerances in line aren't making roller cams and lifters as well. Thanks a bunch for bring light on this issue.
As for roller cams, for one they're a lot more expensive. There's also been some trouble with roller lifters (needles). And, below around a 280° advertised duration a roller isn't as aggressive as a flat tappet. Cam companies should simply be aware of the nitty gritty now on the finish (and no junk in the grinding fluid) and it can be 30 years ago again.
cool vid - going with oversized valves and higher lift cams causes a lot of lifter-cam slap. Today’s v8 rpm 1,000-3,000 more than the past - takes a lot of valve spring pressure to keep lifters from flying off the cam lobe - check your failing cams you’ll see a lot of chatter damage on the down slope of the cam lobes because the valve spring is struggling to close the valve and push the lifter and pushrod back down. Lifter-cam slap can also show up at moderate rpm’s if engine has bad valve spring harmonics. Every moving part in a v8 is moved to a its next position by mechanical movement but the valve train (when closing) is only moved by the valve springs. thx
In the 90's I had a 350 chevy and a 400 pontiac that would eat lifters and finally figured out why. The shop that rebuilt my heads installed used valve springs and over shimmed some of the ones that were a little tired. The overshimmed springs went into full compression bind which would limit the valve travel just enough that the cam would wipe out the lobe on the lifter. It was very obvious when that started happening. I replaced the cam and lifters and eventually when it happened again on the *exact* same cyilinders I started tearing *everything* down and found the extra shims by using a valve spring mic. The first giveaway was the pushrod on the affected cylinder was also slightly bent, noticeable when you put it on a surface plate and rolled it. It wasn't overshimmed by much, but it doesn't take much apparently. Turns out the shop had an apprentice doing work and I wasn't the only victim of his laziness. In my case, he had just forgotten to order the springs. I got new springs and a new cam and lifter set. Point of the story is that it's not always the metallurgy and sometimes it takes a while for this problem to show up.
Been wrenching/successfully installing ft cams for over 50yrs and today it’s mult issues that lead to ft csm & lifter failures. 1) like stated here there are true issue with poor machining of ft lifters & sone csm s at times too but more so a lifter machining issue. 2) The experienced people are dying off do less experienced people do make mistakes on install that can lead to ft csm/lifter failures like for example;too much cranking time prior to motor starting due to setup/incorrect timing,firing order etc. Don’t ensure lifters spin freely in lifter bores,etc. 3) using for example comps Ted assembly lube that runs drips off the lobes before motor is fired for cam breakin a few days or a wk or longer post install resulting in a dry cam & lifter 1st start. I called comp & spoke to tech help mgr & then upper management on that issue & it fell on deaf ears. 4)not using proper oil with elevated zddp level required gir ft cam breaking & for longevity post break-in too. 5) not using a good sticky grey paste type assembly that stays put post assembly like crane used yo sell. 6) not leaving intake off till you adj valves do you reapply assembly lube to the cam lobes you can access the cam lobes post spinning motor over to do valve adj so you can reapply assembly lube that was wiped off furring valve adj, 7) then after I reapply assembly lube to the lobes post valve adj I then very gently pour done gm rod or Lucas’s zddp breakin additive over all the lifters ,cam lobes & valve train just prior to installing the intake. 8) not giving motor enough base timing making timing very retarded leading to much higher engine & oil temp for breakin. Avg engine builder uses non stock cam with more duration & even mild aftermarket perf cams require 3x-4x more base timing (in 12-16deg btdc) then stock cams do (many 0-2-4-6 deg btdc) that many people aren’t aware of esp the home once in a while wrench. 9) not filling cooling system thru intake prior to to greatly reduce air pockets & overheat prior to 1st breakin start sling with slso drilling a hole in t/stat shoulde to slow hot air to pass to smooth out engine temp a bit while warming up. 10)not putting a lrg box fan up on a box in front or radiator /grill of car set on high speed to greatly reduce engine temp furring 2000-2500 rpm 30-25 min breakin . 11) not changing oil & filter post 25min breakin where a lot of metallic particles are generated furring 2st run breaking and going 300-500mile on the 1st run ft cam breakin oil & filer which is nuts to do. And all the above isn’t everything people are missing that can lead to ft cam & lifter failure outside of possibly having improperly ground lifters & or cam lobes etc. Happy motoring. Scott from ny.
Built a 360 30over dodge LA , only 450 lift mild cam. after running 30 minutes changed oil was shocked to see how much metal flakes was in the oil. most was from ring/bore break in.and new oil pump drive /distributor bronze bushing. Much less after 300 mile oil change. Truck has about 7000 on it runs good. If I went 1000 miles on 1st oil change might of been a different story.
Instructions with Crane's Molly paste. The Gray stuff was also to change the filter after 20 minutes of running because they claim that the Mali paste would plug the oil filter. And I can't count how many rebuilt Chevy engines have come through my friend's hot rod shopThat had the bypass Spring and disk missing from the oil filter adapter. So none of the oil got filtered. So many engine builders do not pay attention to little details. Also, how many people remember the cam shift issues? GM head with small black Chevy's in the late 70s early 80s. Although it seems like small block Chevy's always wipe out the cam near the front of the engine because it's at the end of the oiling system even the beloved 283s and 327s
I had two flat tappet cam failures within a few months of each other, back in 2006. One was on my stock 1964 Corvair flat six with unknown miles, factory cam. The other was on my 1971 455 Pontiac with a Summit racing cam and lifter set that had a couple years worth of daily driving on it. I always ran Valvoline 10w40. And according to Internet forums and car magazines, the issue was mostly due to oil manufacturers removing ZDDP from their oil. This was done because that additive clogs catalytic converters. The problem is, it also protects against wear on high-pressure metal to metal engine components, like flat tappet camshafts and lifters. Metallurgy doesn't explain how my factory 1960s cam and my well used aftermarket cam just suddenly wiped a few lobes. Since then I've always used either a high ZDDP specific oil or an additive, and haven't had another camshaft failure.
The problem with the surface finish is the same as the surface on a roller bearing. Any imperfection in the roller is transferred to the race. Eventually the surface is damaged and it chews up all the other roller in the assembly. Timekin sent me to school for this a long time ago because I did inspection work for the steel mill components. They had rollers in the hot end of the mill that was 5 feet in diameter that was 80 RC that had holes in the face big enough to put your fist in. The heat treatment was 4 inches deep. They only wanted me to cut the face down to the bottom of the cracks. Then find the smallest roller and machine the other to match. Everything in the steel mill is ran off a common drive shaft at one speed. Everything has to match up or it puts marks in the hot steel. To remove the imperfection costs money. Each mark in the roller is transferred to the steel plate, slab, round etc.. I had to use PCBN to cut it.. Each hole in the face of the roller broke the $80 insert each time it passed over it. Each pass / cut on the lathe took 4 hours. Each pass removed. 006 , l even worked 24 hours straight sitting in a lawn chair with the stereo full blast, so loud that they couldn't hear to answer the telephone in the office. The cutter squealed / rumbled so loud, it sounded like someone trying to drive a locomotive down the road with no rails while dragging a half dozen empty coal cars behind it, it shook all the dust out of the rafters from the last 50 years. I tried grinding the roller while the cutter ran and the union shop steward made me stop because I was blowing sparks on the other workers. When I finished 3. Weeks later they were done but all of the heat treatment was removed. They sent it back to the steel mill and they went to grind it and discovered it was now only 48 RC and they mothballed it because it was cost prohibitive to repair! Yes you can stand there and tell them that it won't work and that even when you remove the flaw from one layer you will discover another flaw in another place that you can't see until you machine it. The problem is that no one makes new steel anymore, they all want to use remelt because it is cheaper and faster. And that's why the frame on your new Chevrolet truck only lasts 10 years, because there is already rust in the steel when they made the steel for the frame. Planned Obsolescence
I am going to build a 383 small block Chevy. I want to step up to the next Isky flat tappet cam size but I will risk destroying a fresh build. Going to pull the Isky out my 355, runs great and its 15 years old.
Wish I had that option for my 383 build using my 72 vette block, but total fresh parts build. Already have the Summit 1103 cam so likely buy Rhoads for it.
I can only recommend, at the point you are in your build, go with a roller, always use GM rollers, I use Comp. Cams because they will grind a cam to any spec I want, and I suggest for the small amount of extra cost, to have it ground out of billet.
Very interesting info to hear about, but the main problem is now I must buy a digital microscope for the garage after seeing how useful one would be. Thanks.
I figured as much Daniel, I heard as much as I can stand from these Cam and Lifter companies claiming "It's the brake in process, along with the brake in oil but it's not 🚫 us!" It's everybody else's fault! I'm done with flat tappets. Take care
If they're claiming it's a lubrication breakin problem problem with the oil, the cam manufacturer needs to develop an oil and Make the oil available even if it was $15 a quart or more. It would probably be worth it in the long run. Less Warranties, happier customers cams, that would last. But then they couldn't claim. It's because you didn't break it in right if you use their oil. They're breaking lube et cetera
I enjoy hearing two kinds of people talk that have southern accents. Car guys and Baptist preachers. And everybody else. I tell people I'm not a real Yankee I just sound like one.
I’m using GM OE lifters. Came shipped straight from GMs component facility in Grand Rapids. Even have a hardened face of them. I’m running a bunch of spring pressure on a big block. After a few thousand miles all is ok 🤞
iv built quit a few motors and never had a problem breaking in cams UNTIL i did a year or two ago. Two in one yr failed to break in properly on different motors. i talked to my neighbor that's a little older then me and his family owns a shop said he was seeing the same problems and we just blamed it on crap material and they we had seen the problem on different brands so im done and agree. rollers from here on out
Here in New Zealand we were very used to running highly tuned 4 cyl push rod engines, cam failure was extremely rare, even on aggressive reground cams, usually lack of oil or oil contamination did the damage. All lobes were 'parkerized' from new or reground, this helps oil retention on start up, nothing more. In fact you can dispense with that process by lightly stoning the lobe surface so it has a dull/matt surface and using molybdenum disulfide grease or lube on the lobe. Bedding in a cam @ 2500 rpm and max valve spring pressure is simply wearing the bugger out B4 you even start I say things wear as oil retention is inadequate, so many of the cam cores nower days do not have enough porosity, does not matter how hard the bugger is, no oil = wear
Adding to my comment , the lifter has to have some " friction" to rotate , as does the roller on a roller cam . Friction in this description means the ability for lifter to be turned by the cam lobe or roller to be spun by the cam lobe . The two surfaces ( cam lobe and lifter ) being able to essentially grip onto each other to perform the required function .
I recently bought a set of NOS Ford D1AZ lifters still in the box. I also have a couple hundred Johnson lifters I bought in the 90's. And I have a couple sets of lifters that came with camshafts that I purchased within the last ten years. I think I'll take a look at all of these under magnification to see what I can see. This whole scenario is fascinating but tragic. I have about 40 cams new in the box and I really don't want to throw any of them out.
A reasonable request, for sure. However, the cost in time and equipment for me to learn how to make videos is beyond my interest. The best I could do, if indeed there is anything to conclude, would be to upload some still pics to a webside discussion forum. @@novanut1964
Good job mate here in Melbourne Australia there’s a high profile engine builder and when he puts together a pushrod motor first thing he does is check the camshaft for straightness right out of the box and it’s normally out by a few thou and they straighten it and they take every single flat, tappet, lifter, and machine a 2° crown on it And when the motor is on the engine stand and you turn the assembly, by hand at the crank….. You can see the lifters spinning dramatically per revolution……. and it seems to me that’s just what you have to do machine a massive crown so that it spins on the face of the cam lobe, which should have at least a 3 thou slope on it to facilitate the lifter spinning in the bore……. Which they also check But as you are saying, they often report the issue with parts is machining and not hardness or tempering……
I was a newbie and installed the flat tappet camshaft (budget PAW catalog cam) with budget PAW lifters in my 350 back in 2001 and never had an issue. I just filled it up with regular 10-40, let it run at 2000 RPM for a half hour, then changed the oil & filter. Then just drove it gently for about 5,000 miles before beating on it. Lol I don’t think I would attempt to do a flat tappet cam today though.
In the early 90s GM had main bearing failure from cast in Mexico blocks, so we know that we were starting with an inferior foundation to start with. Quality block materials is where it all started in my opinion, then you add mass produced low quality components into these blocks and they never really stood a chance of surviving. I was under the impression that the angle of the lobes alternated to spin the lifters in opposite directions to counter act cam walk, so are the cams being ground correctly? We look back at 100 year old engines that are still running fine, granted they were slower turning but they have seen a long life. To me if you start with junk material there is no amount of skill you can put into that component to have a quality part. The lifters and cam lobes are the effect, not the entire cause of these issues, but the new gen hemi engine had rollers, but suffered a lack of oil so rollers are not the end all fix we have to take the entire design of the total package to get reliability.
Brother, I had a 70 Malibu with a 307 and I dropped a cam and lifters in and started it up nd drove away. Never had a prob. 3000 rpms for 20 minutes.? Never heard of it or heard of wiped cams or lifters. This is 97'. I was thinking, this WAS 97'. The internet wasn't prevalent yet. That's what got me. I hadn't heard of a wiped cam or lifters. But with the internet and millions of people on here, it's easier for people to post
Did you ever manage to get an actual print of the lifter body? In my employ we do have drawings that state a micro window such as between a 12Ra and a 20Ra where engineers calculated the mating surface break in or oil seal areas where they want oil carried but not leaking. Also directing of lay of the turned or ground surface. We even do a pump seal housing where they have a target micro range and specify a right hand turn direction to an ID. Don't blame you for getting out when no one wants to hold their specs.
Good points, seems the course RA would allow more precision break in where they wear in and form a perfect mating. Finer RA wouldn't allow as much wear in and might lose the valleys. I'm no expert but seems to me deep valleys with no plateau would be better so as they mate and develope their wear pattern they would form their own plateaus. Being ground in a certain orientation would be critical so as the lifter rotates the high points have trailing tails so oil from the valleys can come out and wedge onto the plateaus and being ground a certain way would allow oil to travel in the right direction and not just be swept away. Again I'm no expert so I hope anyone can make sense of what I'm trying to say.
I worked for a cam grinder a couple years ago. The cams and lifters were ground with half a degree angle and the lifters were polished. Not really a crown on them
Thank You Daniel for the explanation. Help me understand something please...High performance related engines don't use flat tappets correct? Aren't flat tappets original factory equipment (stock engines) for the most part? What is the reason to not go ROLLER? Cost or what? Why stick with a guaranteed ongoing problem rather than move to a roller?
The elephant in the room is lead. Zinc can never compensate for what lead was doing for decades. On the angle versus crown issue, if you have a perfect angle match the lifter face would be a shallow cone. The lobe would be trying to spin the lifter faster towards the center than towards the edge. It would be fighting itself. The ideal is a narrow contact area towards the edge but not on the edge.. That would give the most torque to rotate the lifter. A crown achieves this and compensates for manufacturing errors.
A lot of motors can only run flat tappet, like most pushrod non-v8. I run a Volvo B20 and there’s simply no practical way to modify the block for rollers.
It's all about the extra money being made in roller cams and roller lifters. Flat tappet is dinosaur technology. Flat tappet technology needs to be history, your example to leave your race car at home is spot on. Forward to roller technology the future.
From what I understand about lifters is that the radius or crown is supposed to be a 30 foot circle. The offset of the lobe on the cam to the lifter bore is dependent on the size of the lifter bore. Chevy being the smallest then Ford and Mopar/AMC is the largest. Ideally the center of the cam lobe should contact the lifter at the appropriate spot on the 30 foot radius to balance the pressure and also spin the lifter. If you look at a fresh ground lifter you will see these grinder lines. If you look at a 100,000 mile lifter it will be much smoother due to the fact that it has been worn in. With flat tappet cams I have had good luck using OE lifters that have been refaced. It's could be that the metal that the new ones are made of is contaminated with inferior scrap or the metal is not completely homogenized before it is solidified.
Alchemy is what has been set into play to finish off All those old engines we charished and enjoyed so well. Be it fuels , oil, and metallurgy of new parts...I call it deceptive design flaw's... I've seen so much, The magnified view of the lifter is exactly what I am talking about... I have seen intake and cylinder head with air veins cast into them from factory and aftermarket alike...bad casting.
I've built two engines with flat tappet failures: AMC 401, circa 1990. Ford 390FE, circa 1995. Both had Crane Cam & lifters. Both engines were built with break in oil additives and correct engine break in procedures. Both engines suffered flat tappet failure almost immediately. This was extremely frustrating to me as these engines were common builds where I had never had a problem before using the same parts, oils and techniques, but earlier, in the 80s. When I screw up, I want to understand WTH I did wrong, so I don't do it again. Literally for decades, I have been beating myself for what I did wrong on my best friend's AMC 401 and my boss' 390. Thanks to Powell Machining for convincing me, and other conscientious engine builders, that we very likely didn't screw up. Well done gentlemen.
i experienced the same thing, i failed to run the correct oil for flat tappets, you have to run delvac extreme diesel oil of rotella four diesel oil, it has the additives the flat tappet needs to survive.
Can you believe this guy. He will make as many videos on this as we demand. He is our youtube puppet to be commanded.
Flat tappet lifters, vacuum tubes, and elected officials, we just don’t make ‘em like we used to… sad
1000%
That’s because the Chinese have a hand in all of it, especially the politicians.
I know, we used to change cams all the time with never a failure! And as a person who still uses vacuum tubes, I know what your saying!
Hahahahaha
Do you make gen 3 amc roller cams ?
This is why we all should use smaller shops . This man cares and knows he can't make a living sending out bad products. After 3 bad experiences with the big guys I went back to my local grinder problem solved!
Absolutely 💯
My exposure to this whole thing is My friend in Washington has a cam grinding shop tells me yes he is seeing exact same thing , he actually grinds lifters too . Im going roller in my 401 AMC though. He said yet the hardness isn't the issue.. He has maybe 40 years experiences in cam shops as employee and Owner on them seen and knowns it all. We had a candid conversation and he thinks it has to be the lubrication . I worked for him in a machine shop in the 70-80's, and we did tones of engines, all kinds Just throw it in and drive around the block and your engine if "broken in ready for 200K miles. Never lost one cam and never needed to 2000RPM for 30 minutes routines either.
So the factor we all know is, " oil chemistry has changed!
I believe you hit the nail on the head with one word, "Metallurgy". During the 60s-80s I've broken in countless flat tappet cams, and only had an issue with literally a hand full. But if you think about the decline of the US steel industry from the mid 70s to its peak decline in the late 80s it has to make you think, especially since the flat tappet issues really became prevalent in the 90s. I totally agree with what you've found as far as lifter machining and finnish issues, and believe the it is more critical because of the "quality" of steel today, and we all know where the vast majority of steel is manufactured today.
I enjoy your videos, Thank you Sir!
Absolutely
The reason for such widespread poor quality in flat tappet lifters is simple: Way back in the day, and for decades, ALL mass produced engines used flat tappet cams, so the manufacturers of lifters for flat tappet cams HAD TO keep quality and quality control extremely high. Any lifter manufacturer who failed to do this for all of the major auto makers would've lost all of their business........and would be put completely out of business. But when all of the auto makers started transitioning over to roller cams, to the point NONE OF THEM ( to my knowledge ) are using flat tappet cams in quite some time, the major liability against the lifter manufacturers ( for flat tappet systems ) also went away. This means the overwhelming vast majority of business for lifter manufacturers is for roller lifters. Even though flat tappet engines are still popular among hot rodders, racers, and everyday enthusiasts who want to build or restore engines using flat tappet cams, they still only make up a tiny percentage when compared to all of the big auto makers who literally have millions of engines built that require roller cams. There isn't a single auto maker today who demands lifters in their new engines that use a flat tappet system. So the lifter manufacturers simply don't have the widespread liability as they did back when they had to step up to the plate & mass produce lifters for flat tappet cams way back in the day. Way back then, if a lifter manufacturer shipped bad lifters for flat tappet cams to any major auto maker, that major auto maker would've had the time & money to sue the hell out of them. But nowadays, it's down to mere individual engine builders & machinists, and they pose no real threat to the lifter manufacturers in the way of "massive lawsuits". So the makers of these lifters for flat tappet cams nowadays simply don't give a damn about "the little guys" everywhere. Lawsuits are basically won or lost by how much time, effort, and MONEY you have to put up for a legal battle in court. The lifter manufacturers have far more money to defend themselves in court against "some individual engine builder or machine shop". It's a damned shame.
After seeing the magnified view finer and the amount of junk in the material, I agree that it is a metallurgical problem. I am a retired Metallurgist and worked in the 70s in the laboratory of a company making landing gears for commercial and military aircraft. All of the steel forgings we used were of single or double vacuum arc remelt alloy steel. We never saw junk in the metallurgical samples like I see in this video. Now I do agree with Daniel that it can be imbedded from the grinding process due to the oil or wheel being contaminated by grinding a lifter that was made from a crappy batch of steel. These particles of junk can be hard as diamond and cause the accelerated wear. The big problem is there is no traceability of heats of material to parts like we had in the aircraft industry. That is why the failures are so random and scattered over all of the manufactures.
Daniel's answer is the only one. Stop using/mandating flat tappet cams.
Yes, I agree with you guys 100%, the evidence is right there for us all to see. But THE REASON this is happening, is because the vast majority of business with these lifter manufacturers is with the major auto makers, and they all use roller cams nowadays. Not to mention all of the individuals who also chose to go with roller cams. That leaves the market for lifters to be made for flat tappet very small by comparison. The lifter manufacturers HAD TO hold flat tappet lifters to much higher standards back when all of the auto makers were using flat tappet cams. But that's old history now, and these lifter manufacturers know that individual engine builders & machinists don't have the power that the major auto makers do........so they get away with murder. If the major auto makers were still using flat tappet cams, do ya honestly believe this problem would still exist with lifters like we're seeing everywhere now? HELL NO. The major auto makers have the power to sue the living sh*t out of them. But the little guy doesn't. @@budehrmann5902
totally agree - i have had 2 very mild 4 barrel cams go flat in less than 50 miles each - both Isky cams with cheap SBI hyd lifters. Used Lucas ZDDP break-in oil. Cam held up but lifters just disintegrated like the metal in the lifter was sintered and not well grained iron. Ran another Isky cam with expensive Melling hyd lifters (same exact engine and Lucas break-in) - no problems. Made in America doesn’t mean the steel that the lifter was machined/ground with was made in America.
It's, almost like, the cam manufacturers want people to switch to roller. They, never admit fault, with flat tappet stuff. They, know what's going on!
No they don't, they're clueless as everyone else, I have talked to them...
@@powellmachineinc3179 I'm gonna help hopefully tha last stage was a acid cleaner sorta but it's nasty for environment ive said too much down the rabbit blue pill red pill swamp U go
2 issues that I see is many people run a modern detergent oil and add an additive to it, we always ran a non detergent oil with GM Eos additive. The other problem I see is that many people nowadays think more Spring pressure is better and it's not good for flat tap at cams.
Is it the microstructure? Should an alloy like “O6 graphitic tool steel” be used for lifters?
Should cams have individual oil jets, one per lobe?
@@dennisyoung4631years ago on Chevrolet small-block all the connecting rods on the journal side had squirt holes, when the rod came around it was Squirt oil on the bottom of the cylinder wall and on the camshaft, when they done away with the holes in the rod bearings and the squirt holes in the rods a lot of camshafts were going bad. I still machine my rods for small block Chevrolet with squirt holes, if I cannot find bearings with the factory hole I will machine holes in the bearings, do some research on Old School small blocks it's funny that they ran over 200,000 Mi without no problem with flat tappet camshaft.
Here's an experience i had many years ago: building an engine for a buddy's dirt-track stocker: he finished 3rd in points for the season with a seasoned short-block that had served duty for a few years in his cousins B-mod...
He melted some pistons after the last race of the season, necessitating a rebuild.
Sent the block off to a (supposedly) reputable machine shop to get out checked out, trued up and gotten ready to go...
Went to put it all together and set the valves and.... something wasn't quite right.
Way different settings from front to back on the rocker adjustments.
And even worse, more different from bank to bank.
What we ended up figuring out, after much cussing, finageling and measuring, was not only did both deck surfaces run uphill, one side front to back and the other side back to front, but the cam bore was offset to one side of the block by nearly 1/8"!!!!
And that was from the factory from Chevrolet!
Smokey Yunick, in his chevy engine builder's Bible, said maybe one in every 8 factory chevy heads was actually worth building due to casting and machining issues... after that experience, i believe him.
Now what's crazier...
I made a set of custom pushrods to "fix" the valvetrain issues on that engine.
Literally hand made every pushrod to center the adjustments. Every single one of them was different.
I built that engine in 2012. He ran it in his stock car for one season, then we pulled it and stuck it in his square body chevy truck where it regularly sees 8,000 RPM beatings to this day... with some severely F'd up valvetrain geometry going on.
Point is, those old castings weren't always great. Hence the need for the "tolerances" and the crown you were talking about.
As a Toolmaker with 30 years experience. I have seen this on multiple occasions.
What you describe as "Flaking" is what is called Lamination.
This can be in the Raw material from the pour at the steel mill OR it can be created in the HEAT TREATING.
This looks to me being the Heat Treating at too HIGH a temperature which causes Decarboning spots or patches.
These test at the correct Rockwell hardness but are actually brittle and can separate from it like flakes.
Ford currently has a Recall on Godzilla engines for the rollers flaking/delaminating in less than 10k miles.
Yes indeed on the Ford Godzilla.
I'm with you 100%. One day last spring I took two identical flat tappet spec engines to the dyno for cam break-in and tuning. We did everything the same on both engines. One engine did fine, and the other engine wiped out a few cam lobes and lifters during break-in. The sanctioning body doesn't want to hear it.
This was the video that had to be made. It had to be made by an experienced knowledgeable person. Good job, one of the best videos I've seen.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Coming from a roller bearing background, you are correct sir regarding lifter crowning and surface finish. The crown also helps prevent “end effect” and balances the subsurface stress across the contact area. Grind burn is another boogie man that is hard to detect but will cause early failure. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge, you and your son are true Craftsmen that not only know How but also Why!
I appreciate your comment! Good info
Correct grind burn causes surface cracks.
I am 76. I have been doing this for 60 years. In the past we just put in a cam and lifters with no problems. No special oil or any of this now. Recently I had a Summit cam go flat after about 1.5 years. I decided to put in a comp cams cam and spend a little extra money for no problems. One cam after another went flat immediately. Finally, after about 3 months I saw a video which mentioned Diamond Like Coating (DLC). On my 4th cam I called Summit and requested an exchange of normal lifters for my new cam to DLC lifters. They are only about $15.00 more. Suddenly, I have no more problems. I have had the lifters out as the head gaskets also went. They look like they came out of the box unused and the cam looks like it was polished.
Look at the advertising Summit is now doing on DLC lifters. They work. It is so hard and slippery that it does not wear and just slips over the cam. They are using DLC on piston pins also. The coating does not wear, the metal underneath has to fail. Why not put DLC on crank journals like nitride?
BUY DLC LIFTERS.
Yes, I just today learned about the DLC lifters.
I Too recall many engines in the 70's 80's, we put cams in , 5 years in a machine shop and do not recall one cam failure, NO special oil, Nothing.
I had a 0.575" Lift cam, duel springs in my 428, never once a problem. Ran like new always.
Do fear the flat tappet setup is going the way of the dodo bird.
It's Not too a big thing, rollers are reliable. Definitely more monies, a few block holes for a thrust plate addition, big deal. It's well known how to do this MOD stuff.
I'm sorry to hear you've gotten out of the flat tappet business. I'm probably resposible for some of the people calling you because I always sent them your way when the were worried about building a flat tappet cam motor. You are the only person I've seen actually look at all the machining specs and not just blame the heat treat or break in proceedure.
It is a shame what has become of this industry. If the manufactures don't want to make a quality flat tappet they need get out of the business, let the market shrink and the cost go up or the those willing to do a proper job.
There are too many high value engines that have no roller option. People building those engine will pay what ever it takes to get a quality cam and lifters.
Thank you for you bissness!
My search for flat tappet failures are why and how I discovered your channel.
Awesome, glad ur here!, we appreciate you
Auto part quality has been nosediving for a decade now. Ive seen multiple AC Delco brand new EGR valves fail within a hundred miles, struts blowing out every 30k miles, etc. Usually it is made in China, but it is sad to see the quality crisis reaching even internal engine parts.......
Glad to hear from an expert discussing flat tappet issues. As a Northernor I find it a little stressful listening to the drawl but the knowledge makes it worth the listen 🙂
#1 definitely not a expert, #2 I understand, it actually took sum getting use to listening to myself, lol #3 I had a supervisor from Boston once, we all made fun of his "Yankee talk"
Sounds like a proper ‘murrican to me
I'm from Coastal Maine, spent 30 years on my lobster boat, and I can tell you I sound like I should. LOL! Thanks for your time, compared to me you are an expert, I appreciate your knowledge, and your time given to us to help.
As a West Coaster I find myself using the "Subtitle" function. LOL it works! OK, just being funny. Sort of. Great content on this channel.
@@powellmachineinc3179 I tried my best downeast accent on a neighbor of mine while visiting in rural NC. His confused expression was priceless !
Hate to see you stop FT videos, but I definitely understand why. But you have been the only one that I believed because you explained everything so well and you backed it up with testing that you showed. Thanks menny times over for your efforts.
Ty! Yeah we got to make Money to stay in biz and can't do that with ft work
Hey Daniel,
Tim here, THAT sir, was an AWESOME, in depth, look at what the hell is happening......switching to a roller wud be GREAT for me, but the cost, is just to much (I have a Pontiac 455).....I haven't had any flat tappet issues yet, but my stuff has been together for a good while, I have a bigger flat tappet custom ground cam I cud stuff in, that I purchased a cupla yrs ago, but I'm hesitant, cuz of all the BS......to switch to a roller set up on my Poncho, wud be drastically higher cost than any SBC, SBF, etc....cam, lifters, then pushrods, wud end up being close to $2k.....OMG!!!...
sorry I digress, but this vid explained ALOT!!!..and I'm a machinist need type, and understood all ur topics...TY sir!!!...ENJOYED IT!!! PEACE to you sir!!
Ty sir
If your current cam is working, LEAVE IT IN and don't change what you're doing. That new cam might work, or could be a guaranteed failure, such is the Russian roulette world of flat tappets.
@yarrdayarrdayarrda thanks my brother, I appreciate ur input......that's been my mind set, but the bigger dude cud net me 10:90's on pump gas.....that's my only gripe.....I'm at 7 flat in 1/8, 11:0's in qtr, just kinda want that 10:90 in my pocket.....but I have to agree, ain't worth blowing it up.......car is strong, and consistent...
This gentleman understands the geometry and fit of engine parts. The cam has to ride up under the lifter. push it up to valve open, and continue to turn and allow it to return to valve closed position. If the cam is egg shaped in the sense the lobe is not concentric on its face, the lifter will be gouged or worn in one spot. Looking at the lobe from the end of the cam it does have an egg shaped appearance for the eccentric that lifts the lifter and valve. However if you hold the cam lengthwise the lobe of the cam should be finished where it engages the significant face of the cam and is able to rotate the lifter as well as lift it.
This is where Mr. Powell is so knowledgeable, so inciteful as to how the cam running the length of the engine and the lifter in the bore will determine if it runs smooth, true and rotates or does not.
Bravo.
I see so many people posting that the cam and lifters failed on brand new builds. The information in this video is very informative and seems spot on to what the situation is.
I've shared it many times with those who have had instant lifter failure.
I appreciate that!
Problem I have, I can't afford an extra $1500-$2000 just for a camshaft, lifters and springs!
If the ft fails and sens iron through you bearings it's gonna cost alot more than a roller cam...
Been there! Then again, just a bushing lifter cost that much!
I hope all the lifter manufacturers see this video and friggin DO something! I run flat tappet only. Run Rhoads Lifters only. How do they do it? Never a failure in 40 years. On a Pontiac I can run any lift, duration and LSA I want, break them in under full 320 LB open spring pressure with only VR1 oil and assembly lube and they work every time. How does Jack Rhoads do it? My lifters always come in beautifully ground to a point in the middle. Overlapping circular swirl pattern. Kinda looks like a flower 🌺 when you look at them. Why can no one else do it anymore? I don’t have $2500 a motor to go in with rollers. So Me, Jack Rhoads, Harland, and The Smith Bros. are gonna keep “clicking” down the road in a flat tappet VVT 461 Pontiac. With absolute valve train control. They way we have for 40 years. Recon I best go buy me some cams and lifters before er’body quits. Never run a lifter that doesn’t have a snap ring keeper. Staples are for paper! And, thank you for going further than anyone else’s to bring truth and light to the issue! 😉
RHOADS MADE IN USA
I appreciate your information and knowledge. I met one of the cam techs at the comp cams booth at cruising the coast, and I asked him what they were find to be the problem with the lifters/ cams. What he told me was that it came down to the oil. That a break in oil had to be used. Then continue to use an oil with enough zddp, and went on further to say that adding a supplement to the oil wasn’t a viable option as most oils now have enough detergents that it is constantly washing the added zddp off. He also said that the oils with enough zddp in them didn’t benefit from more,so apparently enough zddp is enough and more isn’t necessary. I don’t know Whether that is the failure problem or not, but that is what he told me. I have mild flat tappet to install and break in soon, I have purchased proper break in lube for the install and break in oil, and I’ll have a short prayer service before I fire it up. Thanks again for sharing your findings and knowledge.
I know that zinc imbeds itself into the steel. It sounds like a reasonable explanation. But I don't believe it. Were it a sudden change in the oil additives every single car with a flat-tappet that was broken in then run on standard oil would die right away. Its not across the board like that. Its random. You never know which or why. This tells me its multiple problems in manufacturing. Too course of a grind. Re-conditioned lifters sold as new that are the wrong height (for fixed rod applications). Not enough dome. Too much dome. Too little to reduce foreign contamination while grinding. Figure 1 in 100 aren't done right, in one way or another and individually cause no issues. But 1 in a thousand will have 2 issues. 1 in 10,000 have 3 issues. Use 16 lifters in a build and even with those low numbers you have a 1 in 625 chance that your cam gets wiped. Your a machine shop that does hundreds a year? You use an bad (cheap) parts supplier and you can see how suddenly its a flat tappet crisis. No, I don't believe the oil. What I do believe is that manufacturers trying to make margin aren't checking every single lifter. Their low price sells more, but 1 out of every 50 or 100 wipes a cam. Find me many companies that would raise their hand and write a check to every customer in the last 5 years that wiped a cam because of poor quality lifters. Nope. "Low oil additives" is a much less costly explanation.
@@toddknowsnothing6465 I asked the same question about what about all the lifters running around on the modern oil. I was told that it was primarily a problem when doing the break in. I don’t know, I’m not a metallurgist, nor machinists, I’m a technician and hot rodder. I’m about to install a new Comp cams and lifter set into a fresh built engine. All I can do is check off all of the boxes and make sure I’m doing it correctly and 🙏🏼 for the best.
@@RealWorldGarage Did you get that engine put together?
Great video we need more guys like you that care and do great work with cam and lifters I purchased a Howard cam kit for a big block Chevy. It lasted 40 minutes of run time. they said it was due to improper break in. Thanks for all you do for us racers
We appreciate you 🙏
Seems like what they all say and will not admit it.........remember years ago guys changing cams/lifters ....and did not even know you had to break -in the cam and lived a long time!!....sad times quality.
Have 70 F-250 that was ready for a rebuilt mild build FE installation. This was over a year ago. Thankfully while looking into different zinc break in additives I came across a few break in scenario's where guys were wiping out there engines. Well one blog led to another to where I was having sleepless nights in my build. Decided to put my installation plans on hold and not roll the dice. Started almost from scratch and spent close to 2500.00 to go with a Howard's cams and lifters roller set up. I still keep up on this scenario and know I made the right choice. Shame on all the name brand entities out there, most of them bought and sold to China ect., knowingly selling shoddy lifters to the public and letting them blindly go forward on there build just to have them destroy there engine during break in and flushing their hard earned money down the drain. If the industry doesn't want to sell flat tappet cams anymore then don't. Quit selling off your inventory with questionable lifters at the customers expense and grief.
@@halseyknox Adding ZDDK is a poor idea. The oil you mixed it with was NOT formulated to accept it, zinc and the detergents in other oils that are Not formulated for break in, particulate ions remove its ability to lubricate. Has a lot to do with chemistry..
I don't know how much sense your reply makes but at this point it doesn't matter in my scenario anymore
Thank you for your words of experience. You made me realize how critical it is for all elements of the design to work together, and most importantly why lifter breakin is so very important. ZDDP is necessary on a flat lifter engine forever, a given. But breakin is necessary because the crown of the lifter must seat into the cam face so there is a uniform distribution of load across each. The lifter can be ground too smooth. Oil and ZDDP must remain on the contact surface. Microscopic Gooves allow it to be there, just as the grooves in a cylinder bore retain oil for the rings. When i look at the cam and lifters removed from my 318 after 100k+ miles, there is a trace of contact around the lifter, but full face contact at the high end. I can't measure it, but i expect the face of the cam has the same microscopic contour ss the base of the respective lifter. I'm building a street engine, not a race engine. New Torquer Flat lifter cam and lifters, ZDDP, correct load springs & proper breakin; it will be fine.
As a young man in a production rebuild shop, I too would grind tappets with an old grinder. The ways were so worn out I tightened them after each set. Mostly stovebolt Chevys, flathead 6 and 8's, of course every V8 too which didn't buy new. That machine would vibrate and shake all the way through. Those lifters were always rough and scratchy. Usually set at 3 which I believed was degrees.
This was 60/80's and you know what, there wasn't a problem very often. These were all 60/70# seat force and say 220 open (?) I Those days no body cared because of the way old days formans. Just get it done.
Some race stuff came in and we could get the finish better but just a different time, materials and the oils weren't very good but worked okay then. So different.
Thanks for posting. Always enjoy the information you share. Concerning the cams, years ago I drove all kinds of junker cars. A few times, a lifter would go (click - click) so I would pull it out, go to one of my friend's garage and pick out an old lifter out of his scrap box that wasn't too worn, and stick it back in. Never had a problem with that, I would get another two or three years out of the car with no lifter problems. I don't think I wold want to do that today ?? Best Regards - Mike
Right on
The reason many of us want flat tappet cam's is because we don't want to spend a 1000 plus dollars for a roller cam and lifters, I personally have never lost a lobe on a flat target cam, and I find it interesting that there have been tens of MILLIONS of flat tappet comes that have worked flawlessly for decades.
I know it sucks but you can spend that $1,000 on the front end or spend it after the flat tappet trashes your new engine. This is why I specifically hunted down a factory roller cam block for my 350chev build and I can use oem style roller lifters. My 1975 Ford 460 is a different story, if I ever put a cam in it I will probobly have to just bend over and pay the extortion.
You would only add about 400 or so to tje cost, not a 1000
@@powellmachineinc3179 you must be thinking of your cost as a machine shop not ours......I don't know of a set of retrofit roller lifters that are under $600.....but like I said in another post you can pay it the first time or the second time after the flat tappet fails.
@@powellmachineinc3179actually alot more than that to retrofit a roller cam!!!!! You need cam buttons and thrust bearings, adjustable valve train or custom length push rods because most later 460's have non adjustable valve train. Sorry not going to reinvent the wheel to build a stock 460
@@funkysawmanwright5077. You forgot lifter bore braces. It costs $2500 to retrofit a Pontiac. And you can go into the forums and see roller lifter failure and where the big rollers rip the lifter bores out of the blocks. Roller is not a magic bullet. At all. It’s merely another, more costly avenue, with its own issues to navigate, that if done correctly, may yield a better result. That is a long, steep haul for a “Maybe”.
I just came in from the shop , another late one … lol , So there is nothin better that havin a bit of wind-down time and listening to one of your videos , they are so informative .
Yer never done learnin in this trade , I just can’t get enough ….. lol
Thank you!!
Thanks for the video. I had no idea some classes required flat tappet lifters.
Unfortunately
@@powellmachineinc3179. Yeah but a lot of people can't afford to go roller. There have been some roller lifter failures. And for smaller cams (under about 280° advertised duration) a flat tappet is actually more aggressive (area under the curve). They should just do them right again like they're supposed to! Heck charge a slight bit more for the attention to detail!
Even though I live 100 miles from your shop, I’m coming to you on my next build. Thank you for putting out this great content!
Any time!
I have had lifters ground 40 years ago on an international Scout 304 V8 . It was more common place at the time to refurbish lifters . Well , I cant blame you guys for bailing out on the flat tappet cam and lifter ordeal . Interesting explanation of this subject in detail .Id concur too smooth a finish on lifter base or foot , causes the lifter to slide on the ramp , instead of proper rotation . Btw , think about synthetic oils and the additives to improve lubricity . The lifters are able to slide instead and diminished rotation is the result . Another example seen is GM and Dodge roller lifters with a destroyed roller , that looks like a flat tappet failure . The roller is flattened and cam lobe 8s destroyed . Roller slipping and not rolling . Roller is sliding on the cam lobe , not rolling . The engine oil and the lubricity factor must be looked at .
I've never had a failure, but i use stock ratio rockers and stock springs on my stuff, mostly because im cheap.
But i believe alot of the failures seen are people using high ratio rockers and or heavy springs.
Also, there's alot of social media mechanics that think they know what their doing, and when they find they don't, it goes viral.
🤣🤣🤣. So what about the 1000’s of cams that failed on STOCK LIFTERS AND SPRINGS!! You talk about people on social media talking about stuff they don’t know, and here you are, talking on social media on something you don’t know about. No, a lot of the failures are NOT on high ratio rockers and high spring rates, most people use “break in springs” (springs that are stock pressures) when breaking in. So they would NOT HAVE spring pressure being an issue. Stop talking on social about things you don’t understand! Especially when you call others out for doing the same!! LMAO. WOW. the lack of self awareness!!
I agree. It has a lot to do with spring pressures . . and all these other small issues are exaggerated.
If you need to make 500 to 1000 hp using a flat tappet, you cant use stock rockers and springs..
I’ve had two cam failures on a stock V8 making 300hp and having less than .500 lift and stage 1 springs with stock rocker ratio.
@@VinnyMartello You're doing something wrong
Great video. Totally agree about everyone racing in the flat tappet-only classes stepped aside for just a season, the rules would change.
Stumbled on this video while searching for info on FT cams and lifters. Sorry to find out you quit doing that. Thought I had found somebody who had finally figured this nonsense out, and was more or less local to boot. Thanks for all the info you are providing.
Welcome aboard!
I just rebuilt my old Mercruiser motor (GM 3.0) and my worry about aftermarket cams and lifters is how I discovered your channel. It's together and runs great, but going out in the middle of Lake Michigan with the thought of lifter failure is always in the back of my mind. I don't know if anybody makes a roller cam for this motor, but I do regret not looking into it. P.S. the reason for rebuild is because two lobes were disappearing, and lifter noise was getting worse.
Daniel, I have a Continental TSIO 520 in my Cessna. I’ve experienced so many flat tappet lifter failures it’s ridiculous! Every 25 hour oil change the drain the oil through a 10 micron filter, cut open and inspect the oil filter and have a oil sample taken for analysis. All in an effort to catch the signs of early flat tappet spalling! I’ve already had to overhaul this $55K air cooled, 520 CI, 6 cylinder twice for spalled lifters that damaged the cam! This lifter debacle is such BS! One would think the engine manufacturers would be interested in solving this widespread issue but apparently not.
Keep up the good work and thanks for the info! Jim Gandee
Sorry to hear that!, ty for watching
Agreed. Just put the care into making them like they used to! A slightly higher cost for more of a "guarantee" would be fine with most people.
Can only recycle old VWs and American iron so many times, before its diluted into the crap they make today. Keep up the good work over there.
Ty sir!
Good video. Such a stupid problem to have in 2023. Bummer that my Carolina Corvair can't do roller cams without big mods. I reused my low-mileage cam & lifters on a recent rebuild.
Absolutely
I’m in the same boat doing an old Y block too.
What I could never figure out is WHY the incidence of Flat Tappet problems seemed to begin skyrocketing a few years back ?
I mean we used to hear of a few ? But then it was like a light switch being flipped somewhere and failures went through the roof ?
Just seemed that way to me anyways ?
Lubrication degradation
Ya yer right , remember back in the ‘80s , I was just a small shop but sold hundreds and hundreds of cams and lifters for small chevs and I can only remember havin like 2 or3 complaints. And we were sellin cam, lifters timing set and gaskets for 150 bucks .
But like you said , what the hell happened all of a sudden .
Combination of oil additive changes by the EPA, cheap lifters from foreign countries, and poor quality control by cam manufacturers, and workers that don’t care about quality. Jmo
my guess is everyone went to CNC machines and they just put a "button pusher" in there to operate it. If everyone is doing this its easy to stack errors in taper, lifter crown, etc etc. Before everything was done on a CNC an actual machinist had to watch that dial indicator to make sure it stayed in spec and then they QC checked it after it was done as well. Today its just "oh the CNC does all the work".
Mr. Daniel, it's Melissa's husband here, There are times that newer technology makes sense & that goes with many things in life. Much of the old ways are good as well, that said this is strictly my opinion, " When it makes sense and it is an Improvement to a common Problem"then were good. This is why we provide good service both to protect ourselves & our customers. Technology today by way of Rollers is the way to go. OHCams with direct rocker arm contact should be Roller as well but that can be debated with oil technology etc. I aint that smart so I stay away from those types of arguments. That's all I have sir.
Back when I was house framing, we had a choice between Korean Sinker (16 penny nail) and US Steel. I always got the US Steel, you could hit a US steel Sinker a bit offset and fine, a Korean sinker had to be 100% perfect blow or it bent. Overseas can do lower quality cheaper than we can but not good quality.
I really appreciate you doing this video. I had to build a couple of engines for FREE because the customer Didn't believe me. After a while they got the message. But it really hurt me trying to protect my business for something that wasn't my fault. I'm sure there are others that went through this... But yeah, we are ALL ROLLER CAM PEOPLE NOW.... OR NOTHING. !!! 💯
💯!!
I have used Lunati flat tappet cams and lifters with no problems, but I used everything exactly as they recommended. Correct spring rate, rocker ratio, and within the specified RPM range (max 6800). I was able to race one engine for 15 seasons (about 2000 passes) with little cam or lifter wear. I had more problems when I went to a Comp roller setup, still staying aroud 6800 rpm max. When I build another, I am goung back to Lunati and another Flat cam.
That’s good to know. I have a brand new COMP cam for my IH 392 but now I’m terrified to use it. International stuff ain’t cheap to rebuild.
You can't go wrong with Lunati .By all valve train parts to match.A solid set up.
Lunati is the only one I use never had any problems. Haven't used Crower for awhile but I always had good luck with them. My opinion is comp crane are junk tried some over the years because that's what customer wanted wanted. Seems like we were both disappointed
Roller cams and roller lifters could be made more affordable? Thank you for all the information. Roller like it or not is the future. Rock and Roll it.
its not just the future its the past as well......the last production vehicle to use a flat tappet was the Jeep 4.0 inline 6 engine that was discontinued around 2003. So the oem pressure for quality has not been on the suppliers for almost 2 decades now.
Yes, the price has come down some on popular applications, a sbc from me would only cost you about 500.00 more than a ft system
It’s also a problem with older engines. Getting a SBC with rollers isn’t going to be a huge issue, there are many options. But I’m building a 261 Stovebolt and rollers really are not so easy to put in, the lifters are a bit of an odd-duck size and as far as I know nobody grinds a roller cam for one of those.
@@dale116dot7 the good news is you are probobly not going super radical on the cam profile tho
Guys, if you must use a FT lifter, make sure your machine shop is honing your lifter bores, especially if you plan on running the new DLC treated lifters.
I sure do like the Gaterman lifters I got from you after my flat tappet went down. I would have used your cam, but I the large company let me trade my flat tappet for a cam. If it wasn’t a swap I wouldn’t have used them again. Looking forward to using you for my next 2 builds.
All good, we will be here when u need us!
Hey Daniel, I recently installed a Melling flat tappet cam and Comp’s new DLC lifters in a SBC. Broke in fine but ended up having to tear it down for an unrelated issue, the motor had about 3,000 miles on it. Those DLC lifter faces are so hard and smooth they barely spin. I posted some pics on my IG account, the lobe noses looked fine but the ramps and base circles have some strange wear patterns. My machinist inspected them and wasn’t worried, Muscle Car Solutions saw my pics and showed Comp while at Sema, they said it was normal. Kinda crazy though.
Yeah, lot's of people are having issues with the dlc
To slippery
Interesting, I've heard the dlc works well with hardened cams in dohc cam on bucket setups.
@@Midnight_Rider96 mine is working fine, just unusual wear on the cam. I bet I could swap the lifters around and it wouldn’t make a difference. I’ve posted pics on my IG account which is the same handle as it is here.
If it’s normal
It’s literally NOT crazy…
Big Thx for all the info you Share.....I recently bought (From 2 well Respected Cam companies) 2 sets of Premium $250/set 0.904" Solid flat tappet Lifters....Under magnifying lens, Every Lifter Face had irregular Porosity hole Voids, Arc shaped gouge dents & Questionable chamfer edges.....In discussing these issues with the Cam Co Knowledgeable contacts, Both advised lifter face Porosity voids Are Normal for New cast iron Flat tappet lifter Faces !! .....I Never seen anything this ragged & irregular with 1960's & '70's Lifters & Not going to use these Lifters....Cam Co Lifter Iron Casting & metallurgy Machining QC seems Impossible to obtain short of super Expen$ive Tool steel lifters & No guarantees that combo consistently works normal....I now have a $800 set of quality Lookin Tool Steel lifters & good new Lobe Taper camshaft but Still debating going Roller 1st time on Oem, 10k milage 1969 Hemi block build.....New Flat tappet lifter Face Porosity voids & Arc shaped Gouge dents Doesn't seem Acceptable to me.....I'm expecting 'bout 25 Ra, Porosity Voidless, Nick free lifter Face finish.....Are New lifter Face Voids & irregular Arc shaped scar Dents Normal & Acceptable usable ??
Ty!! Glad ur here
Definitely agree, I know when I built my little street 350 I thought oh budget, flat tappet cam will be ideal, it went flat about a month later, just one lobe so I called the big name manufacturer told them about it, they had me send them that cam and they send a full replacement, said it was most likely a bad part or core, I bought another flat from another company, that one went flat on 3 lobes right after break in, same story called them and asked, they said I either broke it in wrong, or my block was messed up, I said well before I rebuilt it it had 102k miles with a stock cam so how is it the block. Bought a roller… learned my lesson, and won’t ever own another flat tappet, granted this was 20 years ago but I think you’re correct to just avoid them
Yep
Best video I've seen yet that explains it. My dirt track engine has been in the car, sitting on the trailer for 20+ years and has not been started and that is the best place for it. $7000 spent on a motor and every year they changed the rules to favor the cheater who were already using the better product and did not get tech inspected..
They were the same people who turned me in when I was not cheating and the track banned me when I requested that they inspect the car that was winning all the races.
The track was not going to enforce the rules for the cheater because he was bringing in the fans.
He's our boy, we're number one!
That how it works unfortunately
@@powellmachineinc3179 Western Pennsylvania is a hotbed for stock car racing and engine machine shop.
Everyone wants to blue print the block but very few repairs crank shafts and none of them grinds their own camshaft.
This is why they blindly swear allegiance to one manufacturer and one engine builder.
Even Pittsburgh Crankshaft Service went out of business.
Take a trip to Gaerte Race Engine and see who's engine is on the floor.
Oh that's some guy from Western PA, we build all his sprint car, dirt late model, street stock etc..
Why?
Because ours makes more hp!
But no one can explain why!
Same people standing in line in Summitt in Ohio picking up blocks and heads and cranks, thinking they can go home, slap it all together and have a race engine. Only they discover that it is only roughed in and has to be finished before it can be assembled.. 1000 video on RUclips and not one of those genius ever talked about the cam tunnel being in the wrong place . Most people are not smart enough to realize that even after you build what they want, they then try to run pump gas in it.. You can buy anything you want except the gasoline.. No more Sunoco 99 octane gas like we had in 1970..
And if you are going to machine something you need to have one person who knows what they are doing and not let anyone else operate that machine because all they will do is damage the machine and then it won't hold a proper tolerance.
I seen people trying to reuse a filter for the coolant and trying to use a coffee filter because there was crap in their coolant..
You have to dress the wheel with a diamond. Some shops just runs it as is....
Thats why you saw that stuff on the lifters..
In Germany there are many US classics around with old HQ Mercedes 6.9 V8s
Sad to hear you getting out of the Flat tappet product & Services......I recently examined under illuminated Magnification a new in box 1976 GM flat tappet Lifter & it's Face looks Perfectly flawless Smooth with No Face surface Porosity Voids or nick/Dents & has a Uniform nick free perimeter edge Chamfer......Every New camshaft Mfg supplied Flat tappet Lifter set face looks Similar to your example of Defective Face finished Porosity voids Pitted & scarred Nicked up faces with Terribly finished edge chamfer.....All the new Cam mfg Lifters actually look like they are literally Carelessly dropped Dumped into a tub of other Bare lifters causes Semi-circle Scars scratches into All the lifter faces.....If New flat Tappet lifter customers would carefully Examine their New lifters they would be Horrified by the Metallurgy face voids Pits & Carelessly handling scar damage....
Definitely
The number one reason on problems with flat tappets is the reduction on ZDDP by the EPA. Even NASCAR started using rollers in 2008. Today, all cars use roller tappets.
Definitely a factor
Doubt that. My Buick 455 NEEDS zddp. I’ve forgotten once or twice.. lol, actually more then that. But the engine stills runs. I’m not easy on the car. It sees 4000 every time I shift! And then there the times I let it wrap up to 6200, The car is not babied at all!! I drove it when it -10° out side, and I’ll drive it when it 110°. Always shift at 4000. 5 years later, plenty of abuse later. Cam still opens valves. Switched to diesel oil last year, but was using normal Valvaline 5w30 before someone who told me. I’m still young, and don’t know everything about these old engines. But I have left zddp out of the equation for maybe 6000 miles of hard driving.
With regard to using standard API certified oils, you're right... but I've even used ZDDP fortified oils made specifically for older flat tappet valvetrains. It still doesn't fix the issue. Even stock cam/lifter/spring/rocker packages that used to last 100k miles (and often longer) are now lucky to see 20-30k miles of service, using fortified oils AND lighter weight valves/pushrods.
The EPA had nothing to do with the reduction of ZDDP in engine oils. Manufacturers were federally required to warranty the emissions systems on their vehicles for a minimum of 60K miles. Well, to reduce their warranty failure rates they began reducing ZDDP. There’s absolutely nothing hazardous about ZDDP. I suppose that if you were determined to off yourself you could drink five quarts of Joe Gibbs and sh*t yourself to death but that’s about it.
I’ve been a full time technician for over 30 years and I’ve watched the transition from flat tappet to rollers with a particular interest in how the remaining flat cam engines like the 5.7 Chevy were fairing on low ZDDP oils. Bone stock 5.7 Chevys are pretty much dying from rust and other issues instead of massive cam failures. Believe it or not there’s still millions of those 5.7s in service. My guess is that they were broken in back when SG &SF oils were the norm. Both ratings had more than enough ZDDP to protect STOCK flat tappet cams. I’m building a 5.7 in a mint 91 Suburban right now that’s never been opened up since it left the factory. It’s had whatever bulk oil that shops had on hand to use. I wouldn’t recommend it but the owner could shove the old cam & lifters back into it and it’d be fine.
It sounds like most of the issues are in the performance realm which I don’t have any vast knowledge about.
@@prevost8686 We do not need ZDDP anymore because we use 100 percent roller tappets since the 1980's. Do your research.
I’d like to come sweep up chips and just do grunt work the amount of knowledge that could be achieved in your shop would be incrediblely useful
Something to think about, I been building hydraulic lifter camshaft motors since the 70s and to date I have had zero cam or lifter issues! ZERO ! NONE ! . Why is that ? My opinion is I say it's a issue of not using enough of the black molly cam brake in grease in the correct areas as there is no such thing as to much of it. Fist off the cam kit only gives you 1 very small packet of the black Molly brake in grease. (that's clearly NOT enough) add to that most people don't use it in the correct areas of the cam lobe or lifter face. I always buy and use a pint can full of the black molly cam brake in grease (Isky is good) that has a ton more zinc in it. I see people on net that only use assembly lube and not use the black molly grease with extra zinc at all, OR watch them fail to put black grease on heavy enough on or not correctly. That plus the biggest word in all engine building is CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN ! You can not just slap a motor tougher in a SAND BOX and expect it to live very long ! I always wash every part and blow each out over 4 times and then lay everything out on a brand new white silk sheet (call me crazy) then I wash everything AGAIN ! for a 5th or 6th time each time blowing everything out with high pressure air till totally dry. Yes it takes more time to assemble, but my motors seem to say tougher when others fail. True I am old school machinist, and I STILL soak all my lifters in oil over night and pump them up one at a time by hand, and yes I DO pre oil the entire motor with a drill just before Install the distributor, call me over kill, but bottom line I just installed my totally rebuilt 67 Vette 327 in my daily driver with a hyd. lifter cam that now has 7,000 miles on it with 65 pounds of oil pressure & NO ISSUES and to me, that's what is all about.
I was always raised to put extra zinc for an oil change with the flat tappet motors. The oil companies have taken the zinc out of oil to make it flow through the roller lifters.
Zinc was found to do excessive harm to catalytic converters when consumed by combustion past the rings. That's why.
Factory blocks are tough when getting aggressive with flat tap cams. The lifter bores are so out of spec, and the oil isn't as good as it used to be. And not to mention, camshaft break-in is so important. I would always use a 1.3 break in rocker with zinc additive. Great video.
After watching this video I understand flat tappet cams & lifters a lot better. Thank you
Glad it helped
At Pete's Machine he would make sure the tappet and push rod would spin on each of the lifters on engines that he ran tested. Also he would drop of the pressure or open up the clearance (back off adjustment screw or nut) until the valves was clacking and all the lifters was rotating. And in those days he would say the lifters and push rods had to spin in-order to seat in or wear in so they will continue to spin. Now On the flat tappets and cam if it was possible to grind a taper on the cam and a flat at the top of the lobe for so many degrees of duration where the lifter will stop rotation but have the largest tappet and lobe contact surface area- at the highest load point and then return to rotation on the lower load duration might fix that flat cam and lifter issue. Good info thanks for another video.
Why do the people that run this country not care about the quality of the products that we purchase with our hard earned dollars ? This really burns my A$$! They want you to vote for them for what! This is Disgusting that you have to put in this much effort to use a flat tappet cam! On another subject I am from Pa. We lived in Arizona, New Mexico and Tennessee and no one ever knew where I was from. They said I don't have an accent,go figure. That said I could listen to this Guy forever, I love the southern drawl and in women it's hot! I hung with with a guy from Cobra town mountain in Tennessee and this man sounds about the same. Never had a problem with it!!👍👍👍
Apart from designated race classes the only reason anyone would run a flat tappet is cost. I'm currently building an almost standard 340 Mopar and a roller cam is $900 and a set of hyd roller lifters is $1200 for basic ones (in Australia). That hurts !!!!!.
That's insane, I can sell you a cam for 425, and lifters for 500 and shipping is probably 125.00
why would you build a junk mopar?
Did a stock rebuild on my daily driver. Went with a very old melling cam and some Johnson lifters. 18,000 miles in and I’m still chugging along.
Im glad we are finally getting over the oil/break in mythology. The real issue is poor quality manufacturing. We shouldnt let the manufacturers off the hook with this
Definitely
I worked flat tapped grinder where I am in Australia . The biggest problem we found was surface finish . We had a brand new set from GM Ford etc to use as masters . Time consuming no Money and always your fault .This was in the 70s 😢looking at your images they have not ground all the scale out from hardening
I had you guys inspect a set of my IH 392 lifters. I’m paranoid just like everybody else.
At this point seeing what the camera shows, flat tappet cams are history. You said it's not "a" problem, it's multiple problems. And any one of them will eat parts I suspect. I would not play Russian Roulette with expensive parts and machining. I just hope Roller cams/lifters aren't next. Hopefully mfgs that can't keep tolerances in line aren't making roller cams and lifters as well. Thanks a bunch for bring light on this issue.
As for roller cams, for one they're a lot more expensive. There's also been some trouble with roller lifters (needles). And, below around a 280° advertised duration a roller isn't as aggressive as a flat tappet. Cam companies should simply be aware of the nitty gritty now on the finish (and no junk in the grinding fluid) and it can be 30 years ago again.
Definitely
cool vid - going with oversized valves and higher lift cams causes a lot of lifter-cam slap. Today’s v8 rpm 1,000-3,000 more than the past - takes a lot of valve spring pressure to keep lifters from flying off the cam lobe - check your failing cams you’ll see a lot of chatter damage on the down slope of the cam lobes because the valve spring is struggling to close the valve and push the lifter and pushrod back down. Lifter-cam slap can also show up at moderate rpm’s if engine has bad valve spring harmonics. Every moving part in a v8 is moved to a its next position by mechanical movement but the valve train (when closing) is only moved by the valve springs. thx
"Lifter slap" that's a new one....
In the 90's I had a 350 chevy and a 400 pontiac that would eat lifters and finally figured out why. The shop that rebuilt my heads installed used valve springs and over shimmed some of the ones that were a little tired. The overshimmed springs went into full compression bind which would limit the valve travel just enough that the cam would wipe out the lobe on the lifter. It was very obvious when that started happening. I replaced the cam and lifters and eventually when it happened again on the *exact* same cyilinders I started tearing *everything* down and found the extra shims by using a valve spring mic. The first giveaway was the pushrod on the affected cylinder was also slightly bent, noticeable when you put it on a surface plate and rolled it. It wasn't overshimmed by much, but it doesn't take much apparently. Turns out the shop had an apprentice doing work and I wasn't the only victim of his laziness. In my case, he had just forgotten to order the springs. I got new springs and a new cam and lifter set. Point of the story is that it's not always the metallurgy and sometimes it takes a while for this problem to show up.
Been wrenching/successfully installing ft cams for over 50yrs and today it’s mult issues that lead to ft csm & lifter failures.
1) like stated here there are true issue with poor machining of ft lifters & sone csm s at times too but more so a lifter machining issue.
2) The experienced people are dying off do less experienced people do make mistakes on install that can lead to ft csm/lifter failures like for example;too much cranking time prior to motor starting due to setup/incorrect timing,firing order etc. Don’t ensure lifters spin freely in lifter bores,etc.
3) using for example comps Ted assembly lube that runs drips off the lobes before motor is fired for cam breakin a few days or a wk or longer post install resulting in a dry cam & lifter 1st start. I called comp & spoke to tech help mgr & then upper management on that issue & it fell on deaf ears.
4)not using proper oil with elevated zddp level required gir ft cam breaking & for longevity post break-in too.
5) not using a good sticky grey paste type assembly that stays put post assembly like crane used yo sell.
6) not leaving intake off till you adj valves do you reapply assembly lube to the cam lobes you can access the cam lobes post spinning motor over to do valve adj so you can reapply assembly lube that was wiped off furring valve adj,
7) then after I reapply assembly lube to the lobes post valve adj I then very gently pour done gm rod or Lucas’s zddp breakin additive over all the lifters ,cam lobes & valve train just prior to installing the intake.
8) not giving motor enough base timing making timing very retarded leading to much higher engine & oil temp for breakin.
Avg engine builder uses non stock cam with more duration & even mild aftermarket perf cams require 3x-4x more base timing (in 12-16deg btdc) then stock cams do (many 0-2-4-6 deg btdc) that many people aren’t aware of esp the home once in a while wrench.
9) not filling cooling system thru intake prior to to greatly reduce air pockets & overheat prior to 1st breakin start sling with slso drilling a hole in t/stat shoulde to slow hot air to pass to smooth out engine temp a bit while warming up.
10)not putting a lrg box fan up on a box in front or radiator /grill of car set on high speed to greatly reduce engine temp furring 2000-2500 rpm 30-25 min breakin .
11) not changing oil & filter post 25min breakin where a lot of metallic particles are generated furring 2st run breaking and going 300-500mile on the 1st run ft cam breakin oil & filer which is nuts to do.
And all the above isn’t everything people are missing that can lead to ft cam & lifter failure outside of possibly having improperly ground lifters & or cam lobes etc.
Happy motoring.
Scott from ny.
Built a 360 30over dodge LA , only 450 lift mild cam. after running 30 minutes changed oil was shocked to see how much metal flakes was in the oil. most was from ring/bore break in.and new oil pump drive /distributor bronze bushing. Much less after 300 mile oil change. Truck has about 7000 on it runs good. If I went 1000 miles on 1st oil change might of been a different story.
Instructions with Crane's Molly paste. The Gray stuff was also to change the filter after 20 minutes of running because they claim that the Mali paste would plug the oil filter. And I can't count how many rebuilt Chevy engines have come through my friend's hot rod shopThat had the bypass Spring and disk missing from the oil filter adapter. So none of the oil got filtered. So many engine builders do not pay attention to little details. Also, how many people remember the cam shift issues? GM head with small black Chevy's in the late 70s early 80s. Although it seems like small block Chevy's always wipe out the cam near the front of the engine because it's at the end of the oiling system even the beloved 283s and 327s
I had two flat tappet cam failures within a few months of each other, back in 2006. One was on my stock 1964 Corvair flat six with unknown miles, factory cam. The other was on my 1971 455 Pontiac with a Summit racing cam and lifter set that had a couple years worth of daily driving on it. I always ran Valvoline 10w40. And according to Internet forums and car magazines, the issue was mostly due to oil manufacturers removing ZDDP from their oil. This was done because that additive clogs catalytic converters. The problem is, it also protects against wear on high-pressure metal to metal engine components, like flat tappet camshafts and lifters. Metallurgy doesn't explain how my factory 1960s cam and my well used aftermarket cam just suddenly wiped a few lobes. Since then I've always used either a high ZDDP specific oil or an additive, and haven't had another camshaft failure.
The problem with the surface finish is the same as the surface on a roller bearing. Any imperfection in the roller is transferred to the race. Eventually the surface is damaged and it chews up all the other roller in the assembly. Timekin sent me to school for this a long time ago because I did inspection work for the steel mill components.
They had rollers in the hot end of the mill that was 5 feet in diameter that was 80 RC that had holes in the face big enough to put your fist in. The heat treatment was 4 inches deep. They only wanted me to cut the face down to the bottom of the cracks. Then find the smallest roller and machine the other to match.
Everything in the steel mill is ran off a common drive shaft at one speed. Everything has to match up or it puts marks in the hot steel. To remove the imperfection costs money. Each mark in the roller is transferred to the steel plate, slab, round etc.. I had to use PCBN to cut it.. Each hole in the face of the roller broke the $80 insert each time it passed over it.
Each pass / cut on the lathe took 4 hours. Each pass removed. 006 , l even worked 24 hours straight sitting in a lawn chair with the stereo full blast, so loud that they couldn't hear to answer the telephone in the office.
The cutter squealed / rumbled so loud, it sounded like someone trying to drive a locomotive down the road with no rails while dragging a half dozen empty coal cars behind it, it shook all the dust out of the rafters from the last 50 years.
I tried grinding the roller while the cutter ran and the union shop steward made me stop because I was blowing sparks on the other workers.
When I finished 3. Weeks later they were done but all of the heat treatment was removed.
They sent it back to the steel mill and they went to grind it and discovered it was now only 48 RC and they mothballed it because it was cost prohibitive to repair!
Yes you can stand there and tell them that it won't work and that even when you remove the flaw from one layer you will discover another flaw in another place that you can't see until you machine it.
The problem is that no one makes new steel anymore, they all want to use remelt because it is cheaper and faster. And that's why the frame on your new Chevrolet truck only lasts 10 years, because there is already rust in the steel when they made the steel for the frame. Planned Obsolescence
I am going to build a 383 small block Chevy. I want to step up to the next Isky flat tappet cam size but I will risk destroying a fresh build. Going to pull the Isky out my 355, runs great and its 15 years old.
Wish I had that option for my 383 build using my 72 vette block, but total fresh parts build. Already have the Summit 1103 cam so likely buy Rhoads for it.
I can only recommend, at the point you are in your build, go with a roller, always use GM rollers, I use Comp. Cams because they will grind a cam to any spec I want, and I suggest for the small amount of extra cost, to have it ground out of billet.
Or..
You could support small business and buy from us.
i hope this video goes viral... so people can stop blaming the wrong things
Absolutely
Very interesting info to hear about, but the main problem is now I must buy a digital microscope for the garage after seeing how useful one would be. Thanks.
Absolutely
I figured as much Daniel, I heard as much as I can stand from these Cam and Lifter companies claiming "It's the brake in process, along with the brake in oil but it's not 🚫 us!" It's everybody else's fault! I'm done with flat tappets. Take care
Definitely
If they're claiming it's a lubrication breakin problem problem with the oil, the cam manufacturer needs to develop an oil and Make the oil available even if it was $15 a quart or more. It would probably be worth it in the long run. Less Warranties, happier customers cams, that would last.
But then they couldn't claim. It's because you didn't break it in right if you use their oil. They're breaking lube et cetera
I enjoy hearing two kinds of people talk that have southern accents. Car guys and Baptist preachers. And everybody else. I tell people I'm not a real Yankee I just sound like one.
I’m using GM OE lifters. Came shipped straight from GMs component facility in Grand Rapids. Even have a hardened face of them.
I’m running a bunch of spring pressure on a big block. After a few thousand miles all is ok 🤞
Awesome
Seems like a lot of this started back when the oil companies removed zinc from the oil. Before that I never had any issues.
iv built quit a few motors and never had a problem breaking in cams UNTIL i did a year or two ago. Two in one yr failed to break in properly on different motors. i talked to my neighbor that's a little older then me and his family owns a shop said he was seeing the same problems and we just blamed it on crap material and they we had seen the problem on different brands so im done and agree. rollers from here on out
Here in New Zealand we were very used to running highly tuned 4 cyl push rod engines, cam failure was extremely rare, even on aggressive reground cams, usually lack of oil or oil contamination did the damage.
All lobes were 'parkerized' from new or reground, this helps oil retention on start up, nothing more. In fact you can dispense with that process by lightly stoning the lobe surface so it has a dull/matt surface and using molybdenum disulfide grease or lube on the lobe. Bedding in a cam @ 2500 rpm and max valve spring pressure is simply wearing the bugger out B4 you even start
I say things wear as oil retention is inadequate, so many of the cam cores nower days do not have enough porosity, does not matter how hard the bugger is, no oil = wear
Adding to my comment , the lifter has to have some " friction" to rotate , as does the roller on a roller cam . Friction in this description means the ability for lifter to be turned by the cam lobe or roller to be spun by the cam lobe . The two surfaces ( cam lobe and lifter ) being able to essentially grip onto each other to perform the required function .
I recently bought a set of NOS Ford D1AZ lifters still in the box. I also have a couple hundred Johnson lifters I bought in the 90's. And I have a couple sets of lifters that came with camshafts that I purchased within the last ten years. I think I'll take a look at all of these under magnification to see what I can see. This whole scenario is fascinating but tragic. I have about 40 cams new in the box and I really don't want to throw any of them out.
make a video with your results
A reasonable request, for sure. However, the cost in time and equipment for me to learn how to make videos is beyond my interest. The best I could do, if indeed there is anything to conclude, would be to upload some still pics to a webside discussion forum. @@novanut1964
Good job mate here in Melbourne Australia there’s a high profile engine builder
and when he puts together a pushrod motor first thing he does is check the camshaft for straightness right out of the box
and it’s normally out by a few thou and they straighten it
and they take every single flat, tappet, lifter, and machine a 2° crown on it And when the motor is on the engine stand and you turn the assembly, by hand at the crank…..
You can see the lifters spinning dramatically per revolution…….
and it seems to me that’s just what you have to do machine a massive crown so that it spins on the face of the cam lobe, which should have at least a 3 thou slope on it to facilitate the lifter spinning in the bore…….
Which they also check
But as you are saying, they often report the issue with parts is machining and not hardness or tempering……
Yes we tell everyone to verify rotation
Which builder you talking about in Australia ?
@@sharons9367 dandy engines he’s on youtube now and then……
I was a newbie and installed the flat tappet camshaft (budget PAW catalog cam) with budget PAW lifters in my 350 back in 2001 and never had an issue.
I just filled it up with regular 10-40, let it run at 2000 RPM for a half hour, then changed the oil & filter.
Then just drove it gently for about 5,000 miles before beating on it. Lol
I don’t think I would attempt to do a flat tappet cam today though.
Definitely
In the early 90s GM had main bearing failure from cast in Mexico blocks, so we know that we were starting with an inferior foundation to start with. Quality block materials is where it all started in my opinion, then you add mass produced low quality components into these blocks and they never really stood a chance of surviving. I was under the impression that the angle of the lobes alternated to spin the lifters in opposite directions to counter act cam walk, so are the cams being ground correctly? We look back at 100 year old engines that are still running fine, granted they were slower turning but they have seen a long life. To me if you start with junk material there is no amount of skill you can put into that component to have a quality part. The lifters and cam lobes are the effect, not the entire cause of these issues, but the new gen hemi engine had rollers, but suffered a lack of oil so rollers are not the end all fix we have to take the entire design of the total package to get reliability.
Absolutely
Excellent commentary from the trenches, I believe the cam cores are being cast in India is also contributing to this problem
We have a video debunking that
Brother, I had a 70 Malibu with a 307 and I dropped a cam and lifters in and started it up nd drove away. Never had a prob. 3000 rpms for 20 minutes.? Never heard of it or heard of wiped cams or lifters. This is 97'. I was thinking, this WAS 97'. The internet wasn't prevalent yet. That's what got me. I hadn't heard of a wiped cam or lifters. But with the internet and millions of people on here, it's easier for people to post
Are you referring to 1997 wonders you didn’t have a problem with tap and collapsing. They had a good oil a good cam and lifter factory back then.
That's true. Oiling was way better.
Did you ever manage to get an actual print of the lifter body? In my employ we do have drawings that state a micro window such as between a 12Ra and a 20Ra where engineers calculated the mating surface break in or oil seal areas where they want oil carried but not leaking. Also directing of lay of the turned or ground surface. We even do a pump seal housing where they have a target micro range and specify a right hand turn direction to an ID. Don't blame you for getting out when no one wants to hold their specs.
No prints unfortunately
Good points, seems the course RA would allow more precision break in where they wear in and form a perfect mating. Finer RA wouldn't allow as much wear in and might lose the valleys. I'm no expert but seems to me deep valleys with no plateau would be better so as they mate and develope their wear pattern they would form their own plateaus. Being ground in a certain orientation would be critical so as the lifter rotates the high points have trailing tails so oil from the valleys can come out and wedge onto the plateaus and being ground a certain way would allow oil to travel in the right direction and not just be swept away. Again I'm no expert so I hope anyone can make sense of what I'm trying to say.
I worked for a cam grinder a couple years ago. The cams and lifters were ground with half a degree angle and the lifters were polished. Not really a crown on them
Yeah...that's why stuff fails
@@powellmachineinc3179 idk, never seemed to be an issue
Thank You Daniel for the explanation. Help me understand something please...High performance related engines don't use flat tappets correct? Aren't flat tappets original factory equipment (stock engines) for the most part? What is the reason to not go ROLLER? Cost or what? Why stick with a guaranteed ongoing problem rather than move to a roller?
Money normally is why people try to run Ft cams
The old Grey iron just aint what it used to be 😊
No doubt
Latest from Isky Technical Dept. "use Driven oil we have no flat tappet issues". "Penn grade 1 is reformulated and is not what Brad Penn was".
And....Bullet says driven is garbage and you need to use Lucas
Awesome video i had a flat tappet fail on me in my big block chevy and now im going witha roller
Glad it helped
The elephant in the room is lead. Zinc can never compensate for what lead was doing for decades. On the angle versus crown issue, if you have a perfect angle match the lifter face would be a shallow cone. The lobe would be trying to spin the lifter faster towards the center than towards the edge. It would be fighting itself. The ideal is a narrow contact area towards the edge but not on the edge.. That would give the most torque to rotate the lifter. A crown achieves this and compensates for manufacturing errors.
The same happens to a lesser extent with large radius giving a wide contact pattern
Can you recommend a shop that currently re-faces lifters? Is the new owner of your tappet grinder offering this service?
Might try Mirco Machine out of New Mexico. I believe he still does
The flat tappet rule made sense when the cost helped keeping things in check. But not it does help it only makes things more expensive.
What I've learned from this video, either run a factory roller block or buy a retro fit roller cam
A lot of motors can only run flat tappet, like most pushrod non-v8. I run a Volvo B20 and there’s simply no practical way to modify the block for rollers.
It's all about the extra money being made in roller cams and roller lifters. Flat tappet is dinosaur technology. Flat tappet technology needs to be history, your example to leave your race car at home is spot on. Forward to roller technology the future.
Absolutely
From what I understand about lifters is that the radius or crown is supposed to be a 30 foot circle. The offset of the lobe on the cam to the lifter bore is dependent on the size of the lifter bore. Chevy being the smallest then Ford and Mopar/AMC is the largest. Ideally the center of the cam lobe should contact the lifter at the appropriate spot on the 30 foot radius to balance the pressure and also spin the lifter. If you look at a fresh ground lifter you will see these grinder lines. If you look at a 100,000 mile lifter it will be much smoother due to the fact that it has been worn in. With flat tappet cams I have had good luck using OE lifters that have been refaced. It's could be that the metal that the new ones are made of is contaminated with inferior scrap or the metal is not completely homogenized before it is solidified.
The radius diameter is larger , around 50inch
Alchemy is what has been set into play to finish off All those old engines we charished and enjoyed so well. Be it fuels , oil, and metallurgy of new parts...I call it deceptive design flaw's... I've seen so much, The magnified view of the lifter is exactly what I am talking about... I have seen intake and cylinder head with air veins cast into them from factory and aftermarket alike...bad casting.