479 HP! Vortec Heads w/ Roller Cam VS Flat Tappet (Dingle Ball 2.0 Dyno Results)
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- Опубликовано: 22 июн 2024
- Can we make more power with less compression, less duration and less head flow? This Vortec headed 355, I call the Dingle Ball 2.0 is put to the test on the dyno to show we can make some great power with a roller cam VS Flat tappet.
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Dingle Ball 1.0
• 480+Hp from a Budget 3...
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Would love to see 2.0 tested with a dual plane just for the heck of it.
I wanted to but was abit crunched for time that day as we were testing two engines. It made more torque than expected with the single plane
My wish also
I was thinking the same thing. An rpm airgap should be able to support that rpm range.
@@thabiznizz absolutely
Love to see this as well. I think the single plane would extend the rpm power range over the Air Gap but, who knows, it might not!
cant wait for the 383 build
Dude I love the “hot for teacher idle” reference! When the 1984 album came out when I was 13 the first time I heard that song I thought it sounded just like a large camshaft idling.
479 HP from a cast iron head 355 very impressive and if you dont want to chance a flat tappet cam just get a roller block 1987 and up
Thank you for making videos on these vortec heads. A lot of of us are tired of LS videos. Let’s add 100 shot of nitrous on a video👍
Dude that is impressive. Very good build combo you put together. Would definitely LOVE to see a 383 version of this.
Thanks for testing, its refreshing seeing these good dyno results.
Killer combination is an understatement! What an awesome comparison! I still find it difficult to dig that deep into my pockets to buy a roller cam, but there's no doubt they're good.
I'm traditionally a Big Block Mopar/Big Block Chevy guy, but.. I've recently stepped into a jet Boat project that's gonna be powered by a 6.0 LS. Totally different animal, but wow.. the parts availability and ease of making good power with the LS platform is hard to deny. High performance roller cam and lifter kits from Summit for less than $450 !! And the heads flow amazingly well in stock form. Power with an LS is like shooting fish in a barrel... pretty cool in my opinion. 🍻
@@Torquemonster440 What does anything you wrote have to do with what I wrote?
@@Carl_Jr should have clarified better, LS Roller cams and lifters are cheap in comparison to retrofitting an old school V8.
@@Torquemonster440 True to a point. A stock SBC roller block isn't too bad. A good cam and lifters are about $500. Still huge compared to $250 for flat tappet, though.
Also, if someone were to reuse the factory roller lifters, a Summit Pro series cam is about $250 for just a roller cam. But again, for my application I don't think it would be worth the money to do the swap.
Sweet build man, enjoyed!
Wow. Great build, great comparison and great breakdowns!
Oh, and great power! Thanks
Great job thanks for putting the time into this......Brett
Excellent build and info. Waiting on the 383 data.
Great job and great information. Thank you for sharing
I'm so ready to see your Vortec head 400 build 😁
Well done, this is awesome.
Awesome video , very informative and very well presented. Nice work my guy !! 🍻
Thanks brotha!
thanks for posting the vacuum reading at idle rpm .
Perfect timing I've got a 357 I'm working on have a couple of flat tappets but was thinking the same thing a hydraulic roller will give me more lift while keeping duration at a good streetable range, nice video.😎❤️🔥💯👍
Thanks man!
Nice job, fun little motors, you can run the tar out of them on the weekend and still drive them to work Monday morning.
Hell yeah!
Nice job pat !!!! That engine would be fun in a square nose S-10
I’m waiting on the entire list for the 2.0!!!
What parts are you wondering about specifically?
I prefer the 1.0 engine because of the affordable flat tappet. However PROPER break in is a must...and take EVERY precaution to ease the spring pressure during breakin
Going with a roller is only about $500 more if you use a '87 or later OEM roller block. It's the best $500 you can spend.
Dang brother, that thing is a beast! Let's see if we can get 500 hp out of a 350 (or 355) with vortec heads.
350 making almost 500hp is a nice engine, I'm building an engine similar to 2.0
Pat out in the shop!
Great video! AG
Thanks AG, we should get together for some dyno fun sometime
👍🏽😎 The HYDRAULIC FLAT TAPPET STILL ROCKS!! NO FEAR ..LOVE EM. GREAT POST.🔥🔥🔥🏁🏁🏁💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽🤛🏾😎Hot for teacher 1.0😂😂😂
I would love to see a 383 version of this motor with the re-worked cheap aluminum heads from DNA or whatever.
Awesome!
Really cool test and outcome! Can't wait for the 383!
Build a 383 808 block afr enforcer gm hot cam 525 lift 10.5 . For what it cost to buy vortec head then a trip to the machine shop you can buy enforcer heads and enjoy a bump in compression. I like the 2.0 build keep um coming. Thanks
yeah the enforcers are hard to beat for the price and the only "overseas" heads i know of that use LSX 8mm valves
11:1 is just fine. You can control the dcr with the cam. Look up "The 350 Chevy should have built" and read the whole article.
I need 3 of those
Thanks!
Thanks, Brother!
Love it
Thanks for another great dyno test, did you by chance test with and without the K&N stub stack? I have read of cars going slower in the 1/4 mile with one, but maybe it works great on the dyno?
I’m guessing that hp carry at the top on the “1.0” engine is the longer exhaust duration. The fatter torque curve on the”2.0” is probably the bigger lift and more area under the curve of the roller vs flat tappet cams. I like the 108° LSA, I don’t remember if the flat tappet cam was the same, but that could fatten up the mid-range too. For myself, with intake closing in the mid 40s (at 0.050”), I would take the 11:1 build. All together very nice work! Thanks!
Both cams on a 108 LSA
I'm building the same engine. Zz4 with 906 head's but I'm going with a 280 roller cam. It's going in a 1992 Z71 short bed regular cab
Would love to see a budget comparison on both.
Really enjoy the vortec videos, have you quantified what the 1.6” exh valves gain you over stock and would you mind sharing the 1.6” valve part number that you use please. Cheers.
You have proven again that you can run a noticeably smaller roller cam and make similar power to a larger cam. The Vortec heads always amaze me in that they a lot of times make more power than a better flowing head. That’s one nice thing about small 170cc runners flowing 230 ish com.
Another awesome video, brother!!!
Great comparison! I know a 383 version is on deck but I'm curious about your version of a 406 like the "Impersonator II" engine build Motortrend did many years ago. 525 lb ft of torque with vortec heads, lower compression, and a .480 cam. 👍
I have a vortec headed 406 that's almost ready
@@cuttersperformance even better if you dabbled with 87 octane too. 😆 I know, that's a whole different build
comparing some as cast aluminum heads to your ported vortec on these engines would be nice. buying vortec heads and having them ported and set up for these engines is more money than some of these aftermarket heads.
I doing a 383 with some budget Aluminum heads
11:1 is realistic for pump gas, if you stay on top of your stuff. For reference, the gen 3 5.0 coyote is 12:1.
That's a terrible comparison. So much more technology in the yote.
Can you make a detailed video on porting heads. Or have you already made one
I think you should definitely use the 2.0 heads and cam on a 383. But also use an Edlebrock rpm air gap thats port matched and the ports cleaned up with that same spacer. You'll gain SOO much more low speed torque and with the porting and spacer you wont lose very much top end at all compared to how much youll gain down low. Also I would raise the compression back up to 10.5:1 and run 93 octane for all of us that do have 93 at the pump. I believe youll see 500hp or close to it peak but lower rpm gain will be impressive. I woukd really like to see this combo man
2.0 is more what I would run.
Looking forward to the Dingleball Stroker!
My 383 project will have .525 lift with my 225/231-ish roller cam. AFR 195 Enforcer heads planned. Would you go with 1.6 rockers to bump up the lift a bit? I haven't ordered any top end stuff yet. Just building the rotating set.
I also have a 383 stroker with a roller cam and budget aluminum heads that's coming up
Did you use the thick old style 5/64 thick piston rings? I would love to see a test between them and a 1/16 or 1.5mm set and also a 1mm set. The only tests I’ve found haven’t included the 5/64 rings. The OEM’s went to 1/16 or 1.5mm in the’80s and now a lot of engines use 1mm-1.2mm sets. I would imagine the difference between the thinnest and the thickest rings would be 10 HP I would imagine.
👍
I have a howards rattler cam (HR) im wanting to try in similar setup with aluminum heads. Curious how close to this 1 itll be
Great build, I'm going to try the Vortec 4/7 swap in a 400. Think Vacuum be OK for brakes
Your vacuum. Should be fine but you might need to drill steam holes. Engine masters did a 4/7 swap comparison and the numbers didn't change much.
I doubt you'll have enough vaccum for power brakes with the Summit 1205 cam. It has 89 deg of overlap, you'll want something with less than 80 deg of overlap to be power break friendly
@@cuttersperformance not sure if im reading the card right but looks like that 1205 has 29* overlap?
@@junkyarddawgfixit8970 seat to seat overlap of 89 deg
@@cuttersperformance Roger that
They are both Great combos mate.
@ 3:50 what is the name of the black colored device on the top of the carby whilst the engine is running on the dyno?
Is it some sort of flow smoothing device for the carby?
Thanks 👍🇦🇺
K&N substack, it helps airflow into the carb
@@cuttersperformance thanks mate 👍🇦🇺
Do an all-out dindleball 3.0 with a 388 and 13.5 cr with E-85 and you will be able to run an even more aggressive cam. Those of us in the Midwest can find E-85 everywhere.
If you were going to build a mild turbo 350 like 500ish hp do you think the crank and rods in a 88 truck 350 (originally a TBI) 4 bolt roller short block hold up , this is just a cruiser hotrod street truck with normal occasional just havin fun use not for the strip. I know its not ideal but I'm thinking probably for a while.
You'd be supried how strong a stock crank and rods are. As long as everything is in good shape, keep it out of detonation, you'll be fine for 500 hp all day. Forged pistons are a good idea, but I've used Hypereutectic pistons at that power level with no issues
The people worried about 11:1 on pump gas don't know anything about dynamic compression ratio. That's perfectly safe and you can push it even further.
Depends on the vehicle, ive done it but tuning can be abit tricky on heavier vehicles
Cam overlap and bleed off have a big influence on what compression can or can't be tolerated.
I am running 11:1 with a 218/228 @ 0.050 roller cam in a 7,000 lbs fullsize Expess van that tows 6,000-8,000 lbs trailers.
I have a question I have a 92 350 638 block factory roller cam I need rings some say they should be metric I'm not sure let me know thanks love your channel
Impressive results Pat! From your experience, if we wanted to have this sort of torque 'peak' but earlier in rpm range( from about 3000rpm -> on) , what would the cam specs for that?
Whats the combo?
@@cuttersperformance A combo of 350cid with vortecs and dual plane intake. What'd be a cam that could provide torque 'peak' as did the Dingle ball2.0 but from about 3000rpm and up?
@mikkokuorttinen3113 a nice power brake friendly/drover combo, would be a 224/230 108 LSA installed at 105. Atleast .550 lift with a 1.6 rocker.
@@cuttersperformance Thank you Pat! Yes, aiming for a streetable driver. So the tight LSA and high lift is the key. Which manufacturers do offer
I was really glad to see 1.0 with 11:1 compression. Limited mindset people have been making that false claim for decades, and everyone else just keeps believing it. Maybe 3.0 can push it even higher. Then run it on 87 just to prove a point.
Was wondering where you are located ? I'm looking for a nice street 350 for my 01 S10. Didn't know if you was interested in building it. Thank you for your time.
Yeah that's great information! I would always prefer to sacrifice a little compression myself over the reliability of a roller cam but never really knew if it was possible to keep the same hp/ torque numbers.
Lift is your friend, other than reliability is the bigger benefit to roller cams
Pat, have you ever considered doing a vortec V-6 to see what numbers you could rock out of it ????
If I had a customer who wanted one, I would
@@cuttersperformanceI bet if you built one with major HP/TQ you could easily sell it... The shorter engine block would fit under the hood of a lot of smaller cars and trucks...
A 235/241 hyd roller cam will act like a 247/253@.050” hyd flat tappet cam.
Don’t remember what the dingle ball 1.0 had for flat tappet hyd cam specs.
Yes similar, the dingleball 1.0 was 242/248
What is different about the 787 retainers that makes them have more retainer to valve seal clearance?
Both awesome engines.
I have a 377 version I'm going to be putting together soon. 4" bore 3.75 eagle rotating assembly. With some after market vortec heads from jegs. The pistons do have a dish. I think 7cc. And are .020 in the hole. But with the 64cc chambers and a steel shim headgasket it should still have decent compression. Comp cams
08-409-8..... 258°/262°-.458/.458
11-1 is limit on 91 for me.I barely get away with running 18-40 on timing.40 is pushing it with ping.
I've done it too, but you're right . It can be tricky on tuning, especially with heavier vehicles
i wish you would port a set of the Chinese eBay cast iron cylinder heads. I had a set flowed and they are only around 210cfm @.500 and are relitivly thick castings that leaves a lot to port.
Got a part# or name I can search on ebay?
@cuttersperformance I had a set of the speed. Master ones flowed, buy a company called Eric weingarter racing out of Oklahoma. There's a video on youtube about it.
@@cuttersperformance PCE281.1755 speed master
dont forget the promax 200 out preformes afr heads of the same for same less $$$ watch eric wiengarnters videos he says its hard for him to admit but numbers dont lie. great video once again what a beast of a 350. either one.
The Chinese version yes but the the OG’s AFR’s.
I've been wanting to try a set of promaxx heads
@@cuttersperformance Great head for the buck.
I ran a set of Promax,Brodix and AFR’s.Every motor is different no doubt but when I changed heads on this 406 sbc,I felt more torque mid range with the AFR’s.I did not change anything else.Yes other things can definitely play a factor with port match ex,ex,ex.Heads we’re 195’s and the 200’s.Promax is a great head no doubt but the price has gone up a lot.If you have the budget grab the AFR’s.The ported 195’s really pull hard.
@joshuagarvey9362 what afrs are you referring too? Enforcers?
What intake gaskets did you use with the vortec heads and rpm airgap? Also, can I use stock rockers on a 487/501 lift cam? I already have the beehive setup. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Whats the part number on the exhaust valves?
You were already buying an aftermarket crankshaft, would it have been much more expensive to upgrade to a stroker crankshaft?
I got the brand new eagle crank for $50, and already had the pistons on the shelf
That explains it. Keep up the great work. Love the L31.
I've got a bottom end to do a 383 hit me up. Been wanting to redo.
Do we think the extra 70hp on the 2.0 vs the Aluminum Head is enough to overcome the weight difference?
Yes
I'm running a 357 small block flat top pistons , stock vortec heads with springs . Cam is Howard's flat tappet 450/450 lift. 235/239 a 50. 106 lsa. 750 dp around what power range should I be?
Now, imagine this combo with just a little 100 shot of spray. You're knocking on the door of 600 hp!!!
Hell yeah!
Any flow numbers on the heads?
90% of the time when flat tappet cams go bad on a rebuilt engine it's because people don't hone the lifter bores. Lifter bores usually get scored during tear down, which keep the new lifters from rotating. If the lifters don't rotate while the engine is running, they WILL get destroyed along with the cam lobe.
Agreed, if they can't spin freely she's toast
And can possibly become egg shaped over time or because of heat. Hot tanking specifically. I've been preaching to people to have their lifter bores honed for years and years.
But, that's yet another reason to go roller.
Springs?
Can you supply me the uncorrected HP and the town the dyno sits in? Thanks
1.096 correction factor SAE.
Dyno is attitude is 574ft
How much would it make with afr enforcer 195's ?
Probably similar
What valve springs did you run on the vortec heads with roller cam??
That will be in the parts breakdown video
@@cuttersperformance 👍🏽😎🤔🤣🤣
You think those turbo mufflers are hurting your Dyno numbers ? 🤔
Wasn't dynoed with the mufflers
Any plans for a 327 build?
Yeah ive been looking for a decent 327
@@cuttersperformance me too
Will 1.6 roller rockers work with stock valve covers?
Yes
Roller rockers won't do anything for power but 1.6 exhaust rockers will.
Yes but you need to use narrow body roller rockers
Were both cams on a 108 lsa?
Yes
Do you have a 400 block?
Yes I'm doing a 406 vortec build
Do you sell vortex heads w port jobs done to them?
I do not offer ported heads
Ok thank for the information I maybe switching to vortex heads for more power.
You should consider selling ported heads Pat, even complete 383 Vortec crate engines. I bet that you would do a great deal of business.
How much cylinder pressure did both engines have
Cranking compression?
@@cuttersperformance Yes
11 to 1 compression is perfect for 91 octane
Are the internals stock
No, flat top pistons and aftermarket crank. But a stock crank could be used
@@cuttersperformance it can as long if you're not doing any boost
Haw about 11-1 with a roller cam ?
A lot of people are afraid to put less timing on higher compression !!!
🤷♂️
You're better to run abit less compression and full timing, then more compression and pull timing
🤔 dual plain
Electric water pump maybe?; 850 - 900 carb. long tube's dunno just using my imagination. Dual quad? Everyone does the 350 / stroker to the point i dont really want to build one. You should do a 305 the engine nobody wants but surprisingly the combos and stroker option is quite unique. 400 crank on .040 or .060 bored 305 or 327 crank with dome piston and rod combo with 350 vortec heads 🤔 interesting. The ls killer!
Static compression ratio is IRRELEVANT to whether or not pump gas can be used. 14.0:1 can be ran on pump gas with the right camshaft.
I got it bad, got it bad, got it bad, I'm hot for teacher.
Hell yeah 😎
Bad sooo bad...
I run 12:1 in my ls on pump gas. I see no reason a sbc can't do that also. I mean wtf....chevy build sbc's with 11:1 from the factory.
You can, and I have done 11:1+ on SBCs but it's not quite as easy as LS platform. The LS heads are very efficient and require less ignition timing, and the cooling system of the LS allows better coolant flow through the heads to prevent hot spots and cooler chambers. Back when GM built the 11:1 SBC the gas was much better than today, the timing often times needs to be dialed back to run todays gas without ping
@@cuttersperformance yea the old sbc chamber might not be quite as good as a ls. But a vortec or lt1(90s) is probably close. I ran 10:1 on with a 406 and l98 heads back in the early 2000s. That was in a k5 with no issues. Not even a very large cam.....small really.
I think most the stuff that had pre ignition issues properly also had a dish piston and/or a large chamber which screwed up the quench causing issues.
Thats a stout unit
Aluminum head needs 1-1\2 more compression to equal an iron head. Around 11 to 11-1/2 to 1. Aluminum dissipates heat faster, and it needs the higher compression to make up for the lack of heat in the combustion chamber for a better burn.
What spacer was that?