Flat Tappet Cam Failures: The Reason Why They Go Bad & The Solution! Part 1
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Flat tappet cams have had a difficult life over the past 10-15 years. Why do they fail? What can you do to keep your new break in alive? We'll talk about all those details, share some new info AND give you the solution to the break in problem.
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Never in my young days did we ever have to go through such bs. We set timing, check for leaks and ran in through the quarter mile. Never ever had a problem like we do now.
Just forgotten memories. None of that is relevant today.
A stress free break in is what we want. The relevance is proven by folks switching to roller cams.
Exactly......and That is the Real Problem.
So true
Not forgotten
Very true, years ago when the casting slugs were made in USA from high quality cast steel and hardened properly there wasn't any problems, they make cast steel slugs in there back yard in china, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, etc etc etc (NAFTA, GATT) kinda explains it,,, if ya pay attention to the obvious.
You know what I got thinking about last night was so incredible and I didn't even realize it at the time!
Back in about 1981, I was a 13 year old who worked as a mechanic's helper in the summer and after school. The shop was small (3 of us usually, including me) and I earned a little under a dollar an hour. I bought my first car for a little under 4 weeks pay. I paid 150. Dollars for a 13 year old 'Honey' of a car (well, it was to me!). It was a 1968 Ford Fairlane and the shop owner was helping me get a 428 performance motor built for it. It was a running and drivable car but I didn't have a license yet, so I had time to build that motor. It had a 390 FE but everyone thought of that motor as non-performance or even as Junk!
Well, Mr Daniel's let me get some of the stock parts on his NAPA account but No hi-po parts. I mainly wanted a cam, intake, Holley 4 barrel and headers. The cam and lifters had to be purchased first because the other things could be added later.
Well, back then a performance camshaft was mostly a solid lifter deal unless you had one of the most popular engines (SBC, BBC and SBF). We found a nice cam profile for a FE Ford in the Comp cams catalog and it was a Solid lifter cam.
I called Comp Cams and was talking to the guy about the cam and he said we had picked a good one for my combo. The next thing was the crazy part. I told him that I had saved about 110. dollars and didn't have enough for all of their parts (cam, lifters, lube and timing set. That was about 140 bucks! The man on the phone told me to save some more but I explained that the man who owned the shop said my motor was coming off the stand SOON! That man on the phone sold me the cam, two 'envelopes' of cam lube and a single row timing set for around 85 dollars. The cam alone listed for around 65 dollars. He said he was including the lube as samples (instead of buying a 'tub') and the timing set was strong 'enough'. I asked him about the lifters and he asked me if I had a pencil. I did and he gave me a part number and told me to get the NAPA store to order those. It was a Dorman part for Ford factory replacement solid lifters for a 427. He told me they would work alright and should cost around 20-25 bucks. They were perfect and we had found the adjustable factory rocker setup off a 428 Cobra Jet. They were rail mounted cast rockers that had an adjuster with a 'ball' end and one end of the pushrods was cupped for it. The machine shop shimmed up some valvesprings from God knows where when they did the valve job on the heads. They cut the heads about 70 thousandths to boost the compression, as well.
As a kid, I didn't quite understand what it all really meant that these people were not trying to make the most money, as much as they were all helping a kid build his first motor.
They were smarter than I thought. That man from Comp Cams bought a customer for life by telling me where to get lifters I could afford! I have put ONLY Comp Cams camshafts in every motor I have built since then (my motors are probably around 3 dozen)!
A company would never consider doing something like that and wonder why they don't have 'Brand Loyal' customers.(?)!
That car ran sweet with it's used iron intake and rebuilt used Holley and the exhaust note was perfect from a solid lifter cam motor through a set of 49.95 headers and a pair of Cherry Bomb glass packs! The factory rocker setup wasn't great. I had to adjust the lash every few weeks but that was alright.
That was a great time in history and kids now hear about my pay and think it was bad. I want to see a kid buy a 2011 automobile for 4 weeks pay, nowadays! Ya'll Take Care, John
Good ol' boys trying to help a kid out but being careful to not let the kid get in over his head. Very nicely written story that conveys a message that I can certainly relate to (I'm about 8 years your senior).
The very first engine I rebuilt was in 1985, it was a SBC 307, reused the original cam, and installed new lifters, didnt even go through the break-in process, drove it many years until I sold it to a friend, it ran many more years until we just lost touch with each other, it is probably still running somewhere out there!
Absolutely, break in is an unnecessary gimmick.
I did my first cam swap at 13 years old. Put in a 280 isky in a olds 400. I used the original lifters with 66k on them . Replaced the nylon timing chain gear that slipped and bent 6 push rods ,used push rods went in. I sold the cars years later and I put on 20k . I run into the new owner at car shows. The motor has never been apart. Still runs great. My opinion on all this is BS .
@@bobbybieln853 oil isn't what it used to be. That's kind of the point he was getting to. Cheap oil will kill a new build, a motor built 20 years ago that already got to build a film didn't get affected.
Epa is definitely trying to kill old cars. Believing otherwise is foolish.
@@ryurc3033 if they could outlaw them ,these libtards would do that !
@@bobbybieln853 exactly
I've run flat tappet in all of my engines up to now without problem, but the failures recently have convinced me to switch to roller cam / lifters.
I know where your comming from, i done all the right things from right oil to soft springs to low ratio Rockers and have still had pushrods not turning right off fire up. The lifters are junk.
I've been a mechanic since 1981 and I unlike many others I DO remember lifter and cam failures. Much more often on engines with some miles and not failing in a few hundred miles, but it did happen. Zinc/phosphorous was in the oil back then and they still went bad. I will say it's happening more, likely due to the oil chemistry changing, but also from people trying "tricks" to break in the cam rather than following the correct procedure for their product. Also it is possible to use TOO MUCH zinc additive. Lifter bore clearance is also rarely checked.
Thanks for the video.
I cover a lot in this video series. As deep as I could with my limited means. It’s amazing what you find when you put all the internet theory aside and actually look and measure the problem. Check out the rest of the videos. I think you’ll find them enlightening.
Father ran a small three stall garage for 50 years here in the Midwest (1950 to 2000). He installed hundreds of camshafts in engines of all configuration. The seventies were particularly busy with the GM camshaft fiasco and Ford crankshaft shame years. Only saw two of his fail, both were aftermarket performance cheapo items. Never used to be any sort of chore to install a flat tappet cam. Betting it is indeed the push towards roller only business.
I had a shop in the 70's and 80's. You are right. The mouse has no thrust washer. So cams would go bad.
Ford had the 351M/400. Those cranks were junk.
I even put a windsor crank in an M engine to see if that would work.
Watch Powell Machines lifter and camshaft video. They are machining the lifters wrong.
Uncle Tony's Garage brought me here. Great content, thank you Muscle Car Solutions!
Thanks! Tell him I said hello! 😆 appreciate you dropping by.
Unbelievable I Have never seen such a great video explaining the differences the problems about cams installations keep up the great work. I have built lots of V8 installed lots of cans cranks pistons but never seen anything like your video.
Wait till you see the next video in the series that will be available on Sunday. It’s as good or better. We’ll talk about the hardening process for camshafts.
THANK YOU! This information needs to be propagated throughout the hot rod/performance community. I have been doing engine work for about 35 years but my day job is reliability engineering for rotating equipment. lubrication analysis and root cause failure analysis is part of what I do. I used to be in several Facebook groups and different forums and the subject of Zinc always came up. I preached the importance of real break in oil for a flat tappet cam. The zinc additive is a snake oil and it’s not doing what they think it is. Comments about the additives in regular oil washing the zinc away and zinc not being suspended in the base oil always seems to fall on deaf ears. I think most people believe, all those guys on RUclips use diesel oil so it must be good. I try to explain to people to quit using diesel oil on old engines and after break in. Information about detergents and additive Les designed for a dirty diesel are totally different than what’s needed for a gas engine were mostly ignored. Information about API ratings on the oil was ignored. I would recommend to break in with stock springs yet I would see engine startups with dual and triple springs without any regard to installed height or seat pressure. I left all the forums and Facebook groups due to the spread of misinformation and sh**ty best practices. Keep up the good work and continue spreading the good knowledge
I spent an awful long time looking for the examples used in the video but what took equally as long was to confirm (or deny) the assumptions I had. I’ve got some good industry interviews coming up that will hopefully shed more light on this subject. A lot of what I’ve seen on Facebook is just opinions that someone expresses, then they get repeated and next thing you know, people want to call it truth. Just crazy the amount of bad (and good) info you can find. Tried to present all the details and hopefully it will save an engine or two. For sure those new Comp lifters will have a big impact.
@@MuscleCarSolutions I can appreciate how long research to prove a point can take. Most of my days are spent looking for data to support why a failure occurred. It seems misinformation on Facebook spreads quicker than factual data. Thanks again for sharing and looking forward to the follow up videos.
Thank you. Very much appreciate someone who recognizes how long this process takes. The interview o have coming up with Billy Godbold should help clear things up!
Everything he has talked about has been in every single issue of hot rod magazine for the last 20 years. Not too mention car craft, super chevy, and chevy high performance. Also, Engine Masters and power nation have exclusive video content about this to watch on RUclips. Back in the day of early internet (2001) their was Bob Winters oil master graph of modern oils used in hot rodding and racing that he broke down for analysis that I would read about while down loading music with Napster.
@@djrowe10 I know the information has been available through several media outlets since the beginning of hot rodding. I learned in tech school and and as a military vehicle mechanic over 30 years ago. It seems this basic Info has been lost over the last 10 to 15 years, especially on the younger generations. Roller cams and OHV engines may be partially to blame. People have stopped reading magazines and rely on social media as their source of knowledge. For the most part, RUclips was terrible for years, full of misinformation. There were some hard core guys providing good facts but most people looking for a quick answer weren’t going there. Recently there has been a shift, new media sources and more knowledgeable RUclipsrs talking about best practices and what causes failures. There is still a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding in those Facebook groups, and some questionable practices on some popular you tube channels. For a casual hobbyists, all the crap data will result in cam failure.
My first engine build in 1992, built it, new cam, lifters and springs. Fired it up and drove away with no “break in”. Never had any issues, motor lived for another 8 years with trips to the strip every now and then until #3 rod played knock knock with the block.
Great information, I haven’t had a cam/lifter failure myself, I take every precaution possible but after seeing your video I realised that I’ve dodged more than a few bullets.
Comp HAD to do something because it was their stuff wiping out more than others, combined with consistently blaming the customers for failure. It wasn’t just Billy Bob wiping them out it was 40 year veteran race engine builders. Comp had screwed tons of people and the word was spreading like wildfire.
Comp sells more cams and lifters than anyone else. And not by a little bit. By a lot. They are all buying their lifters from the exact same suppliers and everyone selling flat tappet cams are having failures. But since comp dominates that market, you’ll hear more about them. If this fixes the majority of the issues (you can’t fix a block with worn out lifter bores or ones that have shifted), and the others don’t follow suit, you’ll hear about those manufacturers more.
@@MuscleCarSolutions I guess either way no matter the reason for them being the number one culprit in the public eye, they were going to have to try and resolve it. I’m a big flat tappet big block Chevy guy. Last comp cam I broke in was 2012 and I used VR1 oil with additive and only the outer springs. I took pains in making sure the engine fired first hit. The cam broke in great and worked perfectly. This was before the great lifter debacle so I wasn’t so worried about it and not as educated as I am today about them. When this problem started, I did the most reasonable thing I could think of, which was start buying up old cam kits from the 60s-early 2000s. I now have piles of NOS GM cams and lifters and early aftermarket kits. I would be interested to see if comp would offer the coating on outside lifters such as some of my NOS GM stuff. It sounds like a winner
@@DerekCastleSr. there are lots of variables at play and the one that is getting worse is the block. I have a video coming in that soon for the last video in this series. That’s an awful situation and there’s nothing that any cam manufacturer can do, so the machine at gets the blame. But no one wants to hear that. On the subject of dlc coating an old set, even new, is I don’t think it would be possible. The way it was explained to me is the prep and machining process wouldn’t allow it to be done and a finished good. It’s going to be interesting to see what they do with it further. What else might be in development. Guess we’ll find out at SEMA or PRI.
@@MuscleCarSolutions you are fighting a losing battle with anyone that begins with "20,30,,50 years ago we didn't have to do this break-in crap, it's a conspiracy." They really don't get it. Over the years, things have changed unlike their mentality! That is the reason nobody knows their name for assembling engines. Yes, "engine assemblers" I'm definitely not calling them engine builders!
@@vvvdubb16 preach brotha!
Personally, I would keep the windage tray where it belongs and groove the lifter bores. That guarantees that oil is squirting onto the lobe before the lifter. Also, some lifters have a small hole drilled through the bottom for added oil between the lifter and the cam lobe. If your engine does not experience wear or lack of oil change, that hole should be open for the life of the lifter. I purchased a lifter bore groover. Also, my choice of break in lubes is Mr. Race Oil available direct from them or from Goodson. Cummins rebuilding centers use Mr. Race Oil for their remanufactured diesels. Great tip on the DLC coating.
50 years ago here in Australia, we only used the OEM lifters (no aftermarket stuff then) and it was pretty common to get lifters 're-radiused' when replacing a cam as standard practice. The cost was reasonable for the time, much less than buying new genuine. Secondly, I always overfill the break in oil by a pint or two, not enough to foam, but to give better splash lube to the flat tappet cam. Good video!
I think you were spot on with your expertise on cam and lifters. I was one that used to use that zinc additive with conventional oil. I'm in the process of building a new engine and will definitely follow your advice. Thank you for the info.
Besides break-in springs and break-in oil, you can get lower-ratio break-in rockers for some engines. For example, 1.3:1 rockers are available for SBCs, so that's a 19% reduction in force at the lifter when compared to a 1.6:1 rocker.
By the time you buy break in springs and break in rocker arms, you could probably just go with a roller cam and be done with it.
Very in depth info that the car community needs to share. Thanks for taking the time to make this video.
Appreciate the comment. Took forever to gather all the materials but I wanted a full look at the types of failure from most flat tappet cam manufacturers. Just took awhile to get them all. Thank you!
I've gone through this nightmare far to many times. I've used COMP break in oil each time, my 283 ate a lobe after 8 years. I put 5 cams in that engine, and they all had various lengths to how long they lasted. I used lots of break in lube, 2000-2500 rpm and varied it because that's what I've always been told. I gave up on that 283, built a 350 with a 268XE Comp cam with lifters, it ate three lifters in a day, put metal everywhere, chunks in the pan, tore it down, had it tanked.
I reassembled it with new bearings, a 262XE with matching lifters, lasted a weak of driving, put it away for the winter, it ate the cam on the drive home in March 2020. I used COMP break in oil, comp break in lube (moly break in lube on the 283) . Currently I have a very worn out 350, a used cam dynamics cam and NOS Elgin lifters I bought at a swap meet years ago, it was just supposed to get the car moving for 2020, now it won't die.
Springs in the 283 were Z28 springs, I think 120 lbs closed, could be wrong. I can't remember what the springs in the 350 were at, I know they were comp though. I'm seriously thinking of going roller.
Sounds like you could of had too much spring pressure. It’s not uncommon. Half the lifters shown in this video can probably be traced directly back to too much spring pressure at break in.
@@MuscleCarSolutions It's entirely possible, I remember my friend said he put the 350 springs in at as light a pressure as he could. The second time it ate the cam, it didn't demolish the lifters, but the first time was BAD. I'll know for sure in a month or two, before Christmas the machine shop I took the 350 to is going to check spring pressures and lifter bores as well as cleaning the block out again.
It’s a super critical part of the break in that most mess up. It’s a pain to set up light then go back after the break in is done. It’s the one thing that I think universally gets avoided because it’s not easy. Sorry you had those failures! Go light and get it done!
@Muscle Car Solutions Thanks for the info!
All the best to you sir!
At 80 yrs I've been involved building my own injected & BLOWN alcohol funny car engines. Of course I used roller tappets in my later engines. But had lots of flat tappet cams in the past before we'd ever heard the term "break in oil". I never had a problem with what you are showing, I always coated the cam lobes & tappets with molybdenum disulfide grease or "Moly Slip" I don't see that stuff around any more
Are you comparing blown alcohol funny car engines to street engines?
your older oils had more zink less detergent 😊
Engine assembly lube has molybdenum disulphide in it
THANK YOU, very much for answering ALL of the questions I've had about this problem. I've actually been away from engine building for at least 20 years now. Now that I'm retried, I'm getting back into the Hobby. I've heard and read alot about this growing problem and want to let you know, you have done GREAT JOB of really explaining this for me. Didn't realize the industry, mainly oil, had changed So Much. It All Makes Total Sense to Me Now. THANKS AGAIN!!!
A lot has changed. Fortunately the new lifters are starting to really hit the market and haven’t seen any bad reports on them yet.
Great video sir! Finally some facts and not just conspiracy theories from people that have no business trying to instruct people. New subscriber here!👍
It’s why I took me almost a year to publish this video. I wanted examples from every major cam company and I wanted to confirm my biases with experts who could give me the right info or confirm my theories. I appreciate you watching!
One thing that would help the flat tappet crew is for people like you to stop predicting the future and stop saying stuff like "In ten years there wont be any flat tappet cams " If the demand is there some manufacturer will make the product . I myself am not a roller enthusiast.
Thats not what you told me buddy boi, you said "i love roller lifters"
I`ve done bunches of flat tappet engines in the last 20yrs for circle track motors and not had that kind of failure. I go to a great deal of trouble and time to increase my chances so as not to get in that kind of trouble. I have had to replace valve train components on refresh jobs but the ware was minimal even after 2 seasons. I break them in with inner springs removed along with letting the installed height run wild. I use Brad Penn semi synthetic oil with a zinc additive and leave it in for at least 50 laps but change the filter after they come off the dyno. During assembly I install the cam and lifters with WD-40 only and spin the cam manually or with a drill fairly slow, 100 rpm or so and look at each lifter to see if it turns like a 1/4 turn or so per cycle. If they don`t something is wrong, they usually need more honing. I like those Johnson HI-LIFT followers. The solid ones with the holes in the bottom work well even with abusive spring pressure.
Some good tips. I prefer driven but know others who like penn.
What rpm do you use on break in? Listening to him say 1800-2100 sounds odd. Had success with 2800-3200 varying, primed and timing close so it fires right up and straight there.
Any experience with agressive profiles like GRI?
Great info. I did comp 4x4 cam in my truck. I had a good 6k on it, no problems. Then I got a tick and checked the rocker and was loose, but the lock nut was tight. I pulled intake, and the lifter was dished but not gouged.
I'm still using flat tappet cams in my engines I put together for myself & so far I have had good luck with them. Pretty much all I build for myself are FE fords or 385 series fords. But I've seen so many people I believe making mistakes. I'm part of some engine groups on fb & the amount of people that swear by desiel oil is scary. I've also watch a video wear the guy claimed to be able to feel the crown of the lifter by setting it on a flat surface & rocking the lifter! I told him if u can rock that lifter it's not good! I will somtimes hold them to a straight edge & then against the straight edge & hold them up to a light & I can see if it's a crown or on old ones I can see when they are sunk in the middle. But I've never been able to tell by rocking the lifter.
Grab two brand new lifters put them face to face and if you look carefully under a light you will be able to rock them and see the crowns/light between the lifter faces.
I've been looking into several videos this is by far the most comprehensive! Shining light on the oil as well is very important and makes perfect sense!
Great Job!
Lots of details to cover for sure. There’s some good info out there and others not so much. That’s why I spent so long gathering up lifter and cam examples and spent time talking to folks smarter than I am to confirm my biases. Though it looks like that whole world might change with those new lifters. Eager to see how it all works out in the long run.
Powell machine did a great video on the lifter cam problems. Said the lifters are ground with to much taper up to 3 thousands, shud be around 1 and half thousands
I’ll have to go look to see what they have to say about crown on lifters. Thanks for the heads up.
I saw the Powell video too. I think he said the issue was lifter are being made with NO taper.
@williamhaggerson5490 lifters have crown, lobes have taper (should). There is no one number that crown should be. It MUST match up with the taper on the lobe. There’s a preferred crown that the OEs preferred but it has to align with the taper on the lobe. Watch my video on lifters and we go into great detail and measure some popular lifters to see what their crown is. But it still must match the cam and even odd crowned lifters can work with the right taper cam.
Over here in Australia most if not all respected high performance engine shops reface all flat tappet lifters before selling them to the public or fitting them to a customer's engine and are not having failures. Interestingly one of the larger shops is a comp dealer and reface comp lifters too. The shops I've spoken to say it doesn't matter what brand as they all can be hit or miss.
Australian prices on cam and lifter sets are ridiculous. Americans complain about the prices here. They’d die if they knew what you were paying. 😆
@@MuscleCarSolutions yeah everything is expensive here. Only saviour is having plenty of cleveland stuff here and companies like CHI Higgins and Yella Terra here.
I don’t know if Cleveland stuff is an actual benefit or a curse. 😆
@@MuscleCarSolutions look at engine masters and see what was the most successful head. Does pro stock ring a bell. Or being competitive in nascar against big blocks.
What other small block came with 270cfm ports stock.
As I have mentioned before, I don't work on engines anymore but I really enjoy your videos. I am AMAZED at how many engine folks DONT understand the basics. They will spend 1000's on parts and dont understand the basics of oil, lubrication, zinc, etc. And like that you mention the Penn grade oil Driven has...its all I used in my 66 Mustang. Keep up the good work !
Penn grade used to get their base oil from the old Kendall facility. They no longer do so. That’s exclusively Driven for the performance aftermarket oils.
@@MuscleCarSolutions that is not what the PennGrade website says!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We always used a non detergent oil with GM EOS additive It has almost 6000 PPM of zinc and over 6000 PPM of phosphorus And if I'm not mistaking this is how GM did their engines for decades from the factory
my Holden 253 V8 ate a lobe on 2 cams in 2000 miles... wish l seen this vid before l did the 1st cam.. cheers from Down Under
Lots of factors at play. Hopefully this helped determine how to keep your next one alive! Cheers!
@@MuscleCarSolutions hope so its only been in the car couple days.. cheers
I also find it interesting that Comp Cams components are having higher failure rates since being acquired by a large private equity firm in 2020. The firms are know to do everything to cut costs and I have no doubt Comp is being supplied with low quality materials.
But is that because Comp sells more cams than other manufacturers
Prove it.
I've been a mechanic for 40+ years. Built a few race motors, had good results. Our shop took in a 1969 Javelin SST 390 project to be finished. Body work was finished, it needed wiring, brake hydraulics, accessory brackets etc. I've owned some AMCs in the past and was familiar with the engine. The guy that had put the engine together had died and I had no idea what was inside. To begin with it had wrong water pump, short pump unavailable. So I remade the pulley to compensate. Timing cover was poorly machined aftermarket part. Distributor would not go in. Replaced it with a cover off a 360 I had. When I had timing cover off I seen water jackets had not been cleaned very well. I was getting concerned how the engine had been assembled. The car owner was confident in the builder. I started the engine assuming first start on new cam and did everything I knew to do proper cam break in. We had total failure on 3 lifters on test drive. 2 lifters had holes wore through the bottom. On removing the cam it was a Comp Cams grind no idea what the lifters were. What would you have done considering the owner was hesitant to have the engine dissembled prior to first start up?
Doesn’t matter what the customer was hesitant about. If I’m responsible for the break in, it better be done so it will survive and that includes the things we talked about in the video. Especially spring pressure and break in for 3-400 miles.
Actually watch and listen to the video and you will have your answer!
How you say ... "Low quality material" without saying "Low quality material" is the cause.
I believe the biggest lack of QC is in the lifter, but that only tells part of the story. I have the final video to finish in this series on lifters and we’ll expose a factor that few are considering. Hope to be done with it soon.
Thanks for the great detailed videos! Comp instructed me to drain the Driven breakin oil to the Driven Hot Rod oil after the 30 minutes of break in to remove the assembly grease.
Break in spring depends on how aggressive the camshaft is . Break in oil on the other hand is crucial as is the additive for oil there on after.
If you are using say a cs-1013r from speed pro that cam is mild enough that a break in spring would not be necessary. A quality lifter is also a very good thing to invest in I totally agree !! Delphi lifters are very nice !
Delphi used to be nice. There’s quite a few failed Delphi lifters in this video. They just aren’t made the way they used to be. No profit in making them.
@@MuscleCarSolutions I generally go with Melling for internals when I do a build . Cams as well . Melling has always treated me right .
Carbs always Edelbrock or Rochester.
What's the rationale behind break in? Wouldn't driving the car as you would normally break it in just fine?
@@moshet842 people think that every flat tappet engine ever build was broke in for 30 minutes before it left the factory. Nope. They put it in the car, started it up and drove it off the line. The new owner had some basic instructions on breaking in the new engine but cam break-in wasn't one of them.
I'm reading through some of these comments & all I can say is Wow! No wonder there are so many failures. I will point out to all the pros that worked for car companies & never did break in procedures couse it wasn't a thing, I will say it probably wasn't a thing with tame, stock, mild camshafts & low pressure springs that were used in stock engines coming out of the factories. That in itself is part of a break in procedure.
Amazing video, great collection of examples and a really solid presentation. This video had a lot of great information. Going to have to watch it a couple more times to get it to all sink in. Thanks for the greay vid.
It was difficult to decide if it should go into multiple videos or all into one. I know it’s super long, but just felt it best to hammer out all the meaningful info. Glad you got something from it! Always appreciate your input. Thank you sir!
@Muscle Car Solutions there are definitely videos that are best to break down into parts - especially if they have a natural break. This video though, definitely glad you opted to do it all as one. Thank you!
Im going to be building a 350 this year and I plan on running a flat tappet cam. I know everyone says go roller but the one time I put a roller cam in the roller came loose from the lifter body and that was using the lifters the company recommended. In my opinion its a gamble no matter which way you go.
Everything is a gamble, no doubt. Flat tappet stuff can be done, but all those critical points must be done right for any chance of survival.
this makes a lot of sense .
It was a lot to cover, but I felt it best to just cram as much into one video as I could! Thanks for watching!
@@MuscleCarSolutions thank you for doing this. It’s crazy how convoluted people can get looking for answers. All of the points you brought up seem like common sense but RUclips is not a university and people treat it that way.
@@roscomcfarland204 I released a follow up video last week on cam core hardness that takes a nice look at what that actually looks like. Have one more in the series to do on lifters. So much to cover that they needed their own videos. I appreciate you watching!
I recently built a 350 Oldsmobile and I went roller all the way. I would like to do that with my Chevy trucks. One is a 1987 with a 305 and the other is a 1995 with a 350. I am currently rebuilding the 305 but I am going with a flat tappet cam because, as you are probably aware, they both have the dreaded TBI fuel injection. TBI engines are very difficult to tune and if I could find an equivalent roller cam for each truck I would gladly install a roller cam. The 1995 runs beautifully. I run Mobil 1 extended performance in that one and have had no issues. The 1987 ran pretty good. I bought it from a little old lady whose husband had passed away 2 years prior. The truck was VERY poorly maintained. I used regular Mobil 1 in that one and 2 years ago I noticed a slight rod knock at idle on a very hot day, so I knew the end was near. The previous owner had an Auto Zone replacement engine installed. When I removed and disassembled the engine and took everything to the machine shop they found the block was cracked in the lifter valley area in 2 places. The machine shop owner surmised it was probably from freezing. My machine shop found another 305 block and I will pick it up along with the new pistons, bearings and such and commence rebuilding the ole girl. I purchased an Edelbrock cam part# 3702 and corresponding lifters part# 41-1502. I will also be purchasing a case of Joe Gibbs break in oil for the break in process. I'm sorry the story droned on but if you know which roller cam will work, with as little tuning modifications as possible, please let me know. I will convert all my vehicles to a roller cam. Thank You for the video and the very useful information. Have a great 2023.
Oof. Those TBI units. It’s really not hard to understand why folks gut it and put on a self learning throttle body EFI. At least you can make your cam selection and have reasonable expectation that it will run. What cam can you run? Anyone you want! But you know you’ll need to ditch that old non-tunable factory stuff.
I bought a 1987 Caprice 305 roller and put it in a 1983 Firebird, de-emissioned, no computer, 1975 spec distributor and Rochester Quadra-Jet that I was able to lower the float, adjust the sliding needles for the primary jets to lean it out, and got 28 MPG highway off the 2 Barrel side and full power off the bigger 4 Barrel side.
I know you're already "down the road" on your build, but knowing that lifter bores are "off-center" - - WHY would you want to put a roller cam set-up in an engine designed for flat tappet?
Another thing, the lifter bores are TALLER in a roller block and a retro-fit into a "classic" Chevy just seems like a patch job of aftermarket equipment, when factory roller blocks are out there. I still have a roller 305 tucked away...waiting...
But another engine is the late '90's Vortec 350 - you get the great flowing Vortec heads, the roller 350, 1pc rear seal, the ability of running tuned port, carb or aftermarket fuel injection.
at this point i have not had any failures in my hot rod shop on SBC . Always check for cam lobe tapper before install , Always use Break in oil for the first 2 oil changes , always use a single spring for break in or at least add 50 thou. to installed ht. and take out any spring shims for break in peroid.
It’s the necessary work that has to be done to keep these things alive. Really a small number fail, but it’s way more than they used to. Thankfully the new lifters should cure it all.
Fascinating. I should have known these things years ago. 🤔
As I have inherited a Y-Block, I will need more of these hints for my own rebuild efforts. Keep it coming.
I've always used Driven breaking oil and never had an issue then switched to vr1.
special oils in a specific brand are likely never going to add much aid to the solution because the flat tappet lifter is loaded hard to the cam lobe when opening and the lifter without roller wheel just shaves off the lubricant. I seriously doubt these oils can embed themselves into the metallurgy of the metal once the metal has been poured at manufacturing and is machined and has cooled.
I just got done with the initial break in on my BBF with a Comp cam, and so far so good! It was the longest 30 minutes of my life thats for sure!! Great vid and great explanation of what happens in the event of failure. I went with Brad Penn break in oil and they as well recommend running 300 miles on the break in oil. Tough to do on a seasonal vehicle, means I have to get out and drive my rig!
I'm getting ready to break 1 in. If it goes bad then I think I'll go roller, newer cars never have cam problems
@@reginaldhall6871 Cross your fingers and toes!! Good luck :)
Very interesting . Over here in New Zealand . We run old V8s on 20/50 hi zinc oils
Viscosity is really centered around bearing clearances plus engine specs and fuel type. But it can be a good weight when it fits what the engine needs! Thing you all have some potentially different brands down there, as well as the ones we have in the US. Been a minute since I was down there.
Penrite an Australian oil company make some really good hi zinc performance oils for the old school stuff 👍
All I’ve ever used is Valvoline Racing 20w-50. No oil related failures in over 40 years.
Back in 1977 I was finishing on a engineering degree with GMI (General Motors Institute).
GM got themselves in a pickle over this same issue.
Over at AC Delphi where the cams and lifters were made, they had issues in the heat treat dept.
with fires and oil clean-up.
In a large basket, the cams and lifters came out of the furnace red hot and was lowered in a vat of oil.
This caused oil splattering everywhere. GM was shelling out big bucks for the Equipment cleaners, EPA, and disposal of the oil.
At GM, we had, at that time, Employee Suggestion Program.
I personally knew of the engineer that suggested that GM use water-hard steel instead of oil-hard steel, that it would eliminate EPA, Fires, Smoke, and water hard steel is cheaper than oil hard.
GM paid that employee 20K and used his suggestion.
That ended with GM having one of the largest recalls, at that time (1978 and part of 1979) with the 305, 307, and some of the 350's with this very issue.
Oil-hard steel case hardened to .0035" thousands and water-hard steel case hardened to only .0015".
Not a whole lot of protection.
Most of your cam and lifter manufactures go on the cheap and use water hard-steel giving you a
.0015" case hardened cam and lifter.
GM used a Non-Detergent oil with a GM EOS additive. It has a lot of zinc.
When GM started these engines on the line, they opened them up immediately to 2200 rpm for 20 mins.
Loved the video. Well done.
Brought back a lot of memories too.
You being up a good point. Next time I have the opportunity to talk to one of the US manufacturers, I’ll remember to ask that question. The only issue I see is those OE suppliers primarily have switched to hydraulic roller production. We’ll see what we can find out between those two processes.
Outstanding video. Cleared up most all the mystery of cam break in. Thanks
@@jimjones-mz1wh the rest of the videos in the series dig much deeper into some specific aspects of break in that might also be useful to you. Thanks!
Those damn Canadians! Haha good video dude
Hey half my friends are Canadian! Well now that I think of it, they’re all from Alberta so I don’t know if they count. 😆 Cheers!
@DDSpeedshop are you the Canadian he keeps referring to? 😬😂
About time comp cams stand behind there product failures.
Comp Cams has a lifter bore groving tool that is a pretty good idea to use on all flat tappet cammed engine's.
Lifter bore groove not the solution!
Something nobody seems to mention is coil bind, retainer to stem seal clearances, bad rocker geometry, improper lifter preload. Another point could be improper or even no oil priming just prior to initial start. And not having proper initial spark advance and/or untested carb which means that the engine doesn't fire right off. Maybe people think it's too obvious, but these can all have an adverse effect.
👍any thoughts on the need for a hardness difference between the lifters and cam lobes to deter galling of similar metals? Awesome vid. Thanks for sharing!
I have to agree about going roller, especially if you are building your first engine. The initial break-in is so critical on flat tappet cams, and with a new build, you just dont know if something is going to go wrong even in those first 20 minutes.
I lost the cam in my first engine build, because 1. It took too long to fire up, and 2. I had a windage tray in my oil pan that I did not know was going to be a problem.
My current build i may have some break in issues, since i had a temp gauge reading high, 260f in 10min of running. Being inexperienced, i thought the issue was the cooling system, so i failed to ever get behind the wheel and break in the rings. How did i find out that it was the temp gauge? I put a vintage style liquid filled shock proof temperature gauge, and mounted it next to the thermostat. Done. I now know my engine temperature with certainty.
My point is, if there is a product that significantly helps in that critical time period... Use it! Were humans, and our cars are not magical, they are subject to the laws of entropy! Lol
I know you mentioned you had lifters of basically all the common brands in the video, I just wanted to point out that you did not mention anything about lifters with the “hardened face”. In my experience very few lifters have this feature anymore. I specifically use AC Delco lifters which are made by Delphi, but I only use the ones with the hardened face
That is a good point! Also if you look at GM Performance lifters they have the hardened face and the reviews are 5 star on Summit. I've heard good things about Melling also.
Tom, you have spoken the truth. The solution is the hardened face lifters. GM developed this and likely others in the 1950s or earlier. Proven and reliable. These other ideas are almost always (dare I say always) a desperate grab leading to more of the same old failures or a new marketing ploy to sell a new product as a solution that almost always does not work!
@@plumcrazy588 You have to be cautious with the melling lifters now too the Mexico ones are iffy at best but their good ones are sourced from Hi-Lift Johnson Engine Pro will give you the Hi-Lift ones if you ask for them or the add specifies but other wise you get the Mexico ones they sent me the wrong ones I called them up and they told me to keep the Mexico ones and had a set of the good ones at my door the next day good group to order Melling and S.A. gear parts from
After having Fail problems with Comp cams lifters, i switched to Howard direct feed solid lifers on comp cams with good luck. The lifters I am having problems with is the Flat hydraulic.
Comp cams should be called comp scams,
That tuber guy from Canada was dan from Dd speed shop , he’s a full time mechanic and hobbyist car builder, he knows his stuff
Clearly, he didn’t on that big block cam break in. Just about everything you could do wrong, he did.
Just now after realizing things, watched your explanation earlier today 11-20-23, I'm takin the HIT, going roller on my AMC 401. NOT takin a chance.
I've listened to and watched too many Good guys I trust and it's a sobering moment of "revelation" .
The message in the scenario is do it twice with a FT and extra costs or once with a roller and carry on!
Either way I'm looking at the near same $$$.
Just with a roller, NO need to pull engine twice and no down time for 3 more months!
I'm hearing it in your voice and The other guys voices too.
There is a time to realize wisdom when it's facing you and THIS I believe in all my automotive decades experience is One of them! - Go Roller.
I know there are folks that just want this to be an option but the reality is there. If you want to go flat tappet, you’ve got to put in a significant amount of work to ensure it survives. I switched to roller decades ago and until recently there no way I’d go flat tappet. The new comp DLC lifters are the real deal though. Big time game changer.
Thank you for explaining everything. I'm in the middle of building a small block Chevy and I have been worried about if my cam would survive the break in. Now I know what I need to do. Thank you
Make sure to check out the other videos in this series. There’s a lot of additional info. Thanks!
information overload !! lots to take in. I think the springs pressures might be the worst. I do not know of anyone who changes springs to change the pressure after brake in.
It’s just a guess, but generally the hardest thing to accomplish is the one that’s easiest to skip. Most don’t even consider it.
Oil and the break in lube on the cam are crucial. Do not use a API certified oil, flat tappet engines are not current tech that API is geared towards. Thank you for mentioning oil issues with additives to API oil. Saw Lake Speed Jr. at Carlisle seminar preaching all this, he is a very smart oil engineer. I also believe that a moly based paste on the lobes for the first few seconds of running before the oil really starts splashing. Not using the grease like break in lube that comes with many cam kits is a rule I firmly believe in, solely my opinion though.
Seat pressure for the springs is also critical, ramp up in spring pressures for radical cam profiles are dragging up the seat pressure heavily loading the lifter early on.
I also think lifters need to be checked for bleed down. Maybe someone will makes a tool to feed 20-80 psi of oil pressure to check for bleed down while applying pressure equal to our spring pressures. If you buy a cam and lifter kit I think the manufacturers could and should check that and certify and warranty them and have a certification card along with the cam card. Imagine if a company did that these days, but, you’d always fight the one guy that doesn’t know how to break a cam in, never degrees it uses cheap non sae certified oil, and never blames himself.
It's crazy!!!! You almost never heard of a cam or lifter getting tore up. Usually because of something else or age. Now it's constNt.
I've spent my life my whole life around racing engines we didn't start losing cams like this up until early 2019 I work at a shop right now not only is it car truck lifters that are bad it's also motorcycle lifters. The nun rocker arm motorcycle engines side by side engines I've put in I don't know how many cams I never lost a can my whole entire life until 2019 and I started noticing the bottoms of the lifters so I dug out a set of lifters that I bought in 2015 big difference. You have to check every lifter and if you do nine times out of 10 you'll find none of them match exactly there's something I've always did with cams that I never had to worry about a break-in procedure because if you think about it it's the affection that you allow is what causes cams to get eaten up I've always smoothed out the bottom of my lifter one thing you are right on of the bevel the bevel on the outside is 4° to six degrees across the lifter itself is up to 3°I've been anal my whole life on putting engines together and I've put some pretty big cams in engines and never lost a cam or lifter up until 20 19 that's when they started not grinding the lifters correctly that's where it all stems from as far as I will I stick with tried and true Castrol and STP put them on your fingers and try to wipe them off you can't I've used it my whole life and I'll continue using it that's the only special oil I've ever used on any type of break in the only break in I've ever worried about was rings if you have very smooth slick lifters to begin with there's not going to be no friction think about it try dragging your fingernails across a piece of glass then try it on a piece of sandpaper see what happens the way they're grinding lifters today is junk I put them in the lathe I smooth them out make sure I have at least a 2% level across the lifter in about four on the edges what the one on the edges do is once it wears past that edge past that bevel that's when it starts eating your cam. Because that becomes very sharp after many many miles like the difference between a speed bump and a knife blade which one's going to dig in definitely the knife blade everything makes sense you just got to think about it and as far as lift I've used some pretty humongous lift on engines before along with huge valve springs the only thing I ever broke was push rods and a valve and yes this was with flat tablet people's been doing it for years you never hardly ever hear about anybody eating I can once in awhile something will fail but that's not got nothing to do with what's going on today since 2019 in our engine rebuilds and you got to think there's 12 of us working there 91 bad cams until they start listening to what I told them why mine was lasting and everyone else's failed . Take a little time and think about it you'll see I'm right
.
As a kid back in the 80s, I did 4 or 5 flat tappet cam swaps in both small and big block Chevys. Not a professional mechanic or an engine builder, just an enthusiastic kid. They were all broke in properly and none of them failed. It would seem that if professional engine builders today are experiencing early cam and lifter failures, there must be a problem with the metallurgy, heat treat, or lubrication. JMHO
@@paulthibodeau1269 it’s the at home builder having a majority of the issues and 2024 isn’t 1980. A lot can wear in those lifter bores in the 50+ years these engines have been around.
GREAT VIDEO, TYVM! Uncle Tony sent me here, he made a clarification video on taper measurement after seeing this. Awesome job!
Thanks! I just saw his video this morning. I wasn’t referring to him or any of his videos in mine. But clarification is a good thing.
32:39 and 32:44 show a flat mirror-like reflection of white pegboard on that DLC coating. Do these not have a crown? As the rest of your video attests, proper crown is absolutely critical.
Yes they do. The lifter still has to rotate no matter what the DLC is capable of.
This subject has been studied to death. I think you’re making some progress here. The only thing that hasn’t been done is someone showing how these cams get destroyed. Actually killing a few in a sacrificial engine to demonstrate flat tappet cam death. I’ve seen more than one engine builder swear off of them completely so that seems to be the solution at this point. Hopefully comp’s lifters will help.
I can’t imagine what that would cost…yikes! I’m eager to see those lifters out in the real world and see how they do. They’ve been shipping them since November so hopefully we’ll hear something soon.
Eventually someone is going to do what you said.
Always used Isky cams and lifters and followed their brake in instructions. Never had a problem with cam failure.
Yes there my 2nd choice after crow cams
Nice, guess flat tappets are going out of popularity because of these issues which on the flip side, if someone comes out with an affordable solution and word gets around, that company is going to reap the rewards.
I'm already looking for this exact deal as I prefer the profile of a flat tappet cam vs an aggressive roller. The flat tappet also has an advantage in the initial portion of the profile as it works on the edge of the tappet instead of a central location of a roller bearing.
The video has the affordable solution.
the sound of flat vs roller is so much better too......the rollers sound clinky
@@MuscleCarSolutions yeah, that's exactly what it's looking like. I've found small engines that have gone to alternate materials including plastics just to solve this issue.
Well thankfully this solution isn’t plastic parts. 😆 But it is the most promising thing I’ve seen to address the issue. Very cool product for sure.
@@MuscleCarSolutions my face said it all apparently. Briggs and stratton were the first I'd noticed to do a plastic cam, I think there is a steel internal shaft but the lobes, outer edge and driven gear is all white plastic.
Best Vid. yet to date on Tappet Failures and Cams......I've watched many and you explain the break-in process and the set backs associated with each step perfectly......Well Done Mr. Muscle..!!
you seem to discredit other peoples experience very quickly... referring to the "Canadian". You are also, in the same breath and without actual proof or facts, blaming the end user....aka "the Canadian".
I don't know why or how these flat-tappet cams/lifter are failing. But it seems to be more common these days. Is it the oil? I don't know... but there is a specific engine that Jeep has been using for decades after the Zinc was removed from the oil, its the 4.0 engine. Those engines are are known for reliability and near zero valve train issues... again, using oil without zinc. Was there a specific "break in oil" used during the manufacturing prior to releasing to the general public? I don't know. But I think it's safe to say, the new Jeep owner (1980's - 2001) were using what was available from the stores to service there Jeeps... and these oil did NOT have zinc.
You mention tapper and crown. You talk about "looking" for some kind of swirl or something... idk. I do know, there is a very specific crown that is required as well as a very specific tapper on the cam. And without having the right measuring equipment, I can't verify anything with the lifter or cam shaft with just my eye balls! The crown isn't something that can be "verified" by simply seeing a crown and thinking, "oh, its got a crown, it's good"! To the average guy rebuilding the engine at their home with basic tools, we just have to have faith the crown of the lifter and tapper of the cam shaft are machined properly.
This video seems to assume the end user (customer), is doing something wrong. This is exactly what happens to the customer when they call [enter companies name] and begin to describe how they followed the break in procedures and yet the valve train still fails. And, somehow, some way, it is still the customers fault. Because by then, we can't verify the machining of the parts were done correctly.
I keep hearing from people (the diy'er) that have been doing this type of work for years using the same procedures that worked for the better part of a century. But are experiencing having failures today.
So... is it the oil? break in procedures? manufacturing and machining process?.... idk?
I appreciate your comments and a few things stuck out. As far as the Canadian that had problems. I’m not going to put the guy on blast and pick apart him by name. There’s far too much of that crap on this platform. That video was one that I watched where it was VERY apparent that the steps he took all led to the failure. The springs he used (he showed them). The oil he used (he showed it). The only thing he wasn’t perfectly clear in was what his break in time and RPM was. But he also mentioned he got the break in details from a retailer (again, nameless as I’m not going to put them on blast) and not from the cam manufacturer. On a big block they’re a little more complicated as the valvetrain is heavier and slower break in RPM is needed. His video I decided to refer to in mine because he was open about all the details. Most videos don’t talk about these in detail so it’s hard to use as an example. I tried reaching out to him a few times but never heard back. I’d rather try to help him than send a bunch of people there with a ton of negative comments. My decision to approach it this way and I would do it the exact same way if I remade this video today.
This channel is about DIY. Always has been. So when I provide some things to look for in the case of what a good pattern looks like on a lifter face, it’s to help that end user, without the tools or technology to know it’s a good crown to match the taper on the cam. Couple that with what a good chamfer looks like and now that end user can start asking questions of the cam manufacturer instead of just slamming it together and hoping it was right. Or worse, mismatching brands.
Sorry you took offense as this was telling people they are doing it wrong. It’s the exact opposite. It’s helping provide the information so they can do it RIGHT. The feedback seems to support that. Oil, spring pressures, break in procedures, visual inspection. All things that need to be considered. If that’s offensive to you, I’m not sure how to address that. The issues have been occurring for more than a decade. It’s not a new phenomenon. But there is a way to help the survival plus a new solution.
@@MuscleCarSolutions definitely not offended. Just sharing an option, just as you did.
When I was a kid back in the 70s we never broke in a Cam just buy a cam put it in with new lifters a off and running never heard of braking it in so that was possible we had better oils or the hardness went deeper into the cam and lifters and now to cut costs thay don't do the same hardness ?
The oil has charged
Thx for the windage tray tip! 🤔 Running light springs first is something I heard about from an engine machinist circa 1992. Nice to hear confirmation.👍
I went through 2 cams in my fresh BB 454. Used the break in oil each time, and 2 lifters wiped out the cam. I switched the lifters to Isky Anti-Pump lifters, and problem solved. And yes, your right with the amount of money i spent on flat tappet, I should have went roller.
Now just built a Cadillac 472, and same break in oil and kept break in rpm at 2k, and 1 lifter wiped out the cam (wasnt spinning) and wiped out the rod/main bearings on a brand new motor. No option for roller as I dont have the 2500 for cam/lifters, new springs, and custom length pushrods.
Spring pressure is even more critical on those heavy valve trains. Have to use a lighter spring for initial and extended break in. 2000 rpm is too much speed. You bring up and excellent point on lifter rotation and it’s a topic we’re going to cover in the next video in the series.
@@MuscleCarSolutions Like you said in your other video, I was denied warranty. So, I did the research, and Johnson is the only American company not using other countries metals. Bought direct from them, and had Isky make a new cam. Not the other place. Will def use your advise on lighter springs and lower RPM's on Break in.
And your so right, that this was NEVER an issue back in the day. Coulda used spit on a cam, and didn't wipe a lobe-lol
@@DeadwagonGarage given there are specific precious metals that only come from Russia/China, getting anything made without materials from that part of the world is impossible. But I think I understand what you meant. Comp has their own roller lifter faculty in Michigan, but as far as flat tappets go, those manufacturers are moving away from that as quickly as they can. Spring pressures are super critical. Get with isky and they’ll tell you what to set them at. The example in the video of 200 open and 100 on the seat is a good rule of thumb, but follow their recommendation!
I have 9 Comp lifter keepers I’ll be removing from my oil pan on video soon. With correct length rods and spot on valve geometry they pumped up in my Pontiac at 6200 RPM and flew apart. The little industrial staple the use for a keeper blows! Literally! I might give them another chance if they had snap ring keepers. But this cowboy ain’t ever running. Another lifter with a staple for a keeper! First and only set I’ve ever owned. Rhoads lifters. Nothing else. Ever. In 40 + years they never let me down and every car I’ve put them in ran faster no matter what can they has as long as over stock. No voodoo required. Start up on 340 lbs of open pressure. Just pour in the VR1, run it in a few minutes and take off. Never have a cam wipe out…. since 1982. Jack Rhoads is the Godfather of Lifters! 😎
In the last year or so, Comp has started a Nitriding program for their flat tappet cams and I had my last SBC XE-274 cam done. It had a good 500 mile breakin period and I also used BREAK IN ROCKERS that were just 1.3 ratio from Speedway. After the breakin, I switched out the breakin rockers for normal 1.5 ratios on a 400 SBC and it has worked out very well. I brought that motor up to 2000 rpms immediately and varied it up and down for the first 20 minutes while I checked for leaks and let the motor get warmed up. It has over 5000 miles on it in a old 1986 Z28 and so far, that procedure has saved any failure. I do still use Castrols Hot Rod Car oil that has added ZDDP in it and during initial breakin (and the 2nd oil change also) I used Lucas Breakin 30 wt oil WITH additional Rislone ZDDP additive. Less spring pressure with the 1.3 rockers was definitely a good and easy thing to do to keep from flattening a new cam. Just my 2 cents and I've been building engines for over 45 years. Thanks for the interesting video. Very informative.
Comp has had a nitriding option for over 20 years. You’ve for sure helped that process with the reduced spring pressure with the smaller ratio rockers. It’s one of the biggest problems folks don’t address because it’s generally a pain to change from a light break in spring to the regular operation springs post break in. Just remember on mixing oils. Any good break in oil has the correct amount of zinc. There is such a thing as too much. Plus the oil and the additive don’t mix until the oil temps reach whatever it needs to attach itself on a molecular level. If it’s even compatible. We had a discussion with Driven a year or so ago and and interview with Lake Speed Jr about that very topic.
@MuscleCarSolutions It took 8 months for me to RECIEVE that nitrided cam and they didn't do just mine, they ran a whole batch so that model # can now be bought and shipped the same week. It was worth the wait. Another note, I ordered a step nose factory roller cam for a 1987 350 SBC and Comp was waiting on cores. That was a 6 month wait as they said that no company had any cores and only 3 foundries produced them. Out of those 3, only 1 got a batch of cores, so I got a bit lucky there also. Just more cam information for your video.
Nitriding takes quite a long time depending on material and spec on the depth. Plus there’s the core availability to begin with. We’ve talked about those US suppliers that still make cast cam cores and unfortunately it’s not a priority for them. They switched over to billet cores when the OE started changing those engines back in the mid 80s. Cast, flat tappet cam cores are like flip phones. They’re a thing of the past that we can’t seem to let go of. Getting harder to get and longer to get them.
@MuscleCarSolutions You have answered many questions that I didn't ask and I appreciate it. I am also in a import group that insists on re-nitriding our factory forged cranks if they have to be resized. I am old school and have ran many a cut crank and never had them nitrided, I just ran the appropriate oversize bearings and checked for proper clearances and went on with assembly. Never had any issues on my domestic engines (or those little import engines) but it doesn't pertain to your video. If you happen to be able to point me in the direction to help others though, I sure appreciate it. 🙏
@martywilsonwilsonenginesho7940 nitriding doesn’t go to a very deep depth. It’s slightly below the surface and is more of a filler for the valleys in the grind. I’m not sure that a regrind on the crank would gain any beneficial results by nitriding the surface again. I guess the real question will be what is the material of the crank made of and how much was removed to clean up the surface. Then a nitriding company can determine if it’s needed and what the recipe needs to be. There’s lots of different combinations of gas/time/temperature when it comes to that process. I don’t think you’ll find a universal answer. My guess is it’s going to be very specific to the crank and application.
Checking heat-treat - the surface hardness will exist only in the upper ~.010-020" of the surface, so it's not that the heat of failure annealed the camshaft, but instead that whatever surface harness was there has been worn thru. But regardless, you are correct, you must check it first. And in a location that isn't part of the wear surfaces, of course.
Next video will help understand heat treating which hopefully you’ll find enlightening.
Every HP engine builder should see this! One point not made RE "diesel" oils is that the dual rated oils with ratings for both gas AND diesel engines (eg CJ-4/SN) have the same low levels of ZDDP as a gas rated engine. The oils with only a diesel rating (eg CJ-4) have more ZDDP. With a little effort, you can get data sheets on the various oils that bear this out but also bear in mind that oil formulations are still in flux, so what you see today may not be what you see tomorrow. Look at the API roundel on the oil jug! A single-rated diesel oil doesn't have enough ZDDP for break in no matter what, but it's probably enough for a low performance engine to run every day.
For sure there is some confusion about what API spec diesel oils have enough zinc for normal operations. For break in, I wouldn’t use one. There are formulated diesel break in oils (Driven makes one), but I’m not sure it’s in anyone’s mind when buying oil for initial start up. Regular gas engine break in oils seem to have most folks attention. Or I’m hoping they do.
@@MuscleCarSolutions You know what's really interesting is that most diesels, even those going back to the '80s, use roller lifters! If you look at diesels of the distant past, they had roller lifters too, though for different reasons. When light duty diesels were developed in the '70s, there was an abortive try to use flat tappets as a cost saving features (able to use off-the-shelf pieces). It was learned that the high soot levels commonly found in diesels of the day contributed to early lifter failure, so roller lifters were developed. Also, thee is an upper limit to how much ZDDP and engine can tolerate long term. Too much can leave deposits in high heat areas, such as the top ring. I don't recall the exact number and it was from a white paper of some years back that may no longer be precisely relevant. I don't think it's an issue short term for break in, but running break-in levels all the time in a "more is better" effort, may not be a good idea. I think the oils professionally formulated by a tribologist for flat tappet cams will be OK, too much of the poured in additives might be a problem. BTW, the additives will still work. They may not be as efficient if they are not formulated into the additive package, but they will mix and do their job. Some oils take quite nicely to the additives, generally the non-synthetics, but you never know and it isn't easy to figure out. Also, ZDDP is heat sensitive, so it really doesn't do much until the oil is hot.
I have seen lots of roller failures in factory engines. A couple were in my own well maintained vehicles. I hope the aftermarket performance folks are doing a better job than OEM.
I now have 2 comp cams hydraulic flat cams for 2 of my 350 Chevy motors for both my Camaro sports cars. I run good oil with zinc additive and change the oil regularly. Haven’t had a problem with comp.
Setting Correct Rocker Arm and valvespring lash is critical alongside using the correct length pushrod and correct springs for your application.
In the early eighties Crane recommended pre heating the oil on stove before pour in and start-up. Matched Edelbrock cam kits are good also.
It's great that you got Scotty Kilmer's left hand in your video !
I just lost a cam after break-in and a test drive,never lost one before. I'll give it one more try before doing a retro roller.
There are three videos in this series. Lots of details on why they go bad. Follow the recommendations for a successful break in and your chances will increase significantly. The last video on lifters is very important and one that I think is flat out just neglected. Spring pressures are the other extremely critical parts that is just ignored.
I feel the best way to cure these cam/Lifter issues of Hyd flat tappet cams is find a motor builder person that has NOT been having any issues!. I been building flat tappet motors for many decades and never had a cam problem, a not 1. One thing I see over & over is guys not useing enough of the black molly high zinc grease on their cam or lifters when building the motor. The cam companies only give you 1 very small packet of the grease, ( that is NOT enough !) and many guys only use assembly lube, or fail to apply the black molly grease correctly. I always buy a extra pint can of that high zinc molly grease (Isky is good) and coat everything ( all the cam and the faces of each lifter really heavy. I also do my standard 30 min brake in at 2,100rpm with QTs of straight weight 30W Lucus high zinc brake in oil, (having problems getting Driven in Florida) drain it hot after 30 mins, replace the oil filter & refill with more 30W brake in oil drive the car 100 miles easy moving RPM up and down all the time. then drain the oil again with another new filter and more 30W brake in oil for a 3ed time, and again drive the car easy moving RPM up & down always under 3,500 rpm for another 300 to 400 miles and change the oil & filter again and continue to run 30W brake in oil for the first 2,000 miles changing the oil& filter every 500 miles. After 3,000 to 4,000 miles more, I switch over to straight weight 30W high zinc Valvoline VR-1 racing oil (there are better oils, but best I can find in this State right now)
I put a crower cam in my 340 mopar years ago the cam was in two different engines before i got it still running strong no issues
APPLAUSE!!! GREAT VIDEO - LOTS OF GOOD INFO! now,,, lets talk about one issue that was not covered or is generally over looked by most hobbyist - the condition of the LIFTER BORE itself...Lets assume that most of us, when it comes time to build our engines - have the machine shop "machine" most of the blocks contact surfaces(cylinder bore/deck/main saddles-as needed). A good machinist or engine builder will check/feel/measure the fit of the lifter to the lifter bore. We know that a tight tolerance is needed here. But lets say the engine block showed signs of rust/sludge or over heating? And the lifter is very tight in the bore. How will that flat tappet lifter be able to freely rotate as needed? You could use a brake-wheel cylinder hone to polish or recondition the lifter bore. But what if the bore is distorted or out of round? Lets say upon DISASSEMBLY - some of the lifters came right out & a couple of lifters had to be PUNCHED out from the bottom. Ya think that there's a problem there? Another point of possible failure of the cam & lifter assembly could be related to camshaft "walk". On SBC, there is no retaining plate up front - like on a Ford. The timing cover on a SBC is thin. A button or welded stop needs to be utilized to limit the walk to an acceptable level. The rear cam tunnel plug also needs to be properly installed...Most failures can be attributed to the type of oil used at break in. High detergent/ synthetic oil is a no-no! To much spring pressure on the seat & at open rates - along with the wrong installed height is catastrophic to the cam & lifters...The wrong engine speeds at the initial start up is often over looked. This amazing video covered all of theses issues...Lots to learn here & it's easy to over look the small details...Thank you for your time & efforts!!
I have one last video in the series and that’s on lifters specifically. It’s taking some time to gather the examples I need to do it properly. I don’t do videos that talk about only theory. I want to show it. It’s why this video took me forever to finish because of all the examples. Why the second video took awhile and at a significant cost so I could SHOW what cam hardness is. I’m glad you appreciated the effort. Thank you!
There are not very many lifter manufacturers in the world most cam suppliers are reboxing lifters you will hear people say Oh it's Chinese junk that's not the case. The problem is 2-fold the first is low ZDDP in the oil not using the correct oil can wipe out a cam along with the improper break in procedure the other problem is the machining of the face of the lifter not being machined correctly. Rotella does not have much ZDDP these days zinc additive does not work with detergent based oil you half to use non det oil if you use additive the best bet is to use Driven or Lucas Break in oil I have personally stopped using flat tappets altogether everything you said in this video is correct I put out a video last year from my shop and basically said the same thing you did here we have a cam grinder and a lifter face grinder there are so many bad lifters being sold from every cam supplier we have reground thousands of lifters out of the box form every major cam supplier in North America and I can tell you every single one of them is selling lifters with little or even no crown at all, you really need to chuck a lifter up in the machine to know if the crown is correct or not I can tell you most lifters being sold across the board are junk Howards actually has the best flat tappets but even they had some bad ones like I said been machining for 35 years and I am done with Flat tappets good video
That seems to be a common phase that’s caught on in explaining flat tappet cam failures. Wrong crown on lifters. In reality, it’s only half the story. The final video in this series I finished with lifters and covering the crown on a lifter and it’s relationship to the cam. There’s a small niche cam on the market currently that uses an off shore lifter with a horrible crown, but they put a taper on the cam to work with it and they rarely have issues. As far as oils go, I did interviews with Driven and Lake Speed Jr and zinc was covered. You might find those interesting. Cheers!
Thank you for the info was and bought flat tap Definitely going roller.
Thank you.
Out of 36 cam brake ins, ive have never had a problem with wiping out any flat tappet cam and lifters. Friends of friends have called me to have me brake in their rebuilt engines, Ford, Chevy, Mopar. I always use straight 30 WT with no problem. I have an unused Hydraulic flat tappet Purple Shaft cam and lifter set that I bought 30 years ago. I know that set will survive when I find a use for it. I won't bother buying anymore solid or hydraulic flat tappet cam sets, bc I'm now strictly Solid Roller now! No one can afford taking their engines apart bc of cam failure. I won't take the chance. Take care
This used to be unheard of. What has changed so much?
Discussed that in the video! From several angles!
@@MuscleCarSolutions What I got from it was that 1) Oil is different than it was when flat tappet lifters were about the only thing out there,
2)Springs are stronger than they were back then especially in racing applications,
3) Manufacturers don't want to make them for economic reasons.
Manufacturers have known since the beginning that the cam lobe taper that you spoke of had to be there and yet we're talking about it.
Regarding cam hardness and how it changes from running, there is a gentleman who did a video where he tested several old cams, some of them well used, and I believe some of them were in failure and they were all within two or three points of their published spec or their historical value. Now I recognize that you know many orders of magnitude more about cams, lifters and engines in general than I do but this one stood out for me, lacking clarification.
Thanks
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind for sure. The hardness topic was one that I felt had a lot of information that needed it’s own video. I just released that one this past week. It’s a great video if you’re interested in seeing more. When it comes to taper and lifter crown, that’s another video that I need to gather some more examples so I can present it all together. Cam taper is wild. There are some cams out in the market with a ton of taper ground in to match the lifters they are sourcing from odd places. Not recommended at all. We’ll also cover this in an interview I have coming up with Billy Godbold. The interview I did with Lake Speed Jr recently covered a bit of the oil angle. Trying to cover all of the different topics in different videos and keep them under 30 minutes. Lots to cover!
@@MuscleCarSolutions 👍
I tore up a Crane camshaft ,
It was my fault !
This camshaft was in a small block 327 and runs North of 8,000rpm drag racing ,
So it doesn't matter what oil was in this Engine ,
Not too many people break in their Engine correctly , at least none of my friends do , I follow cam and rings specifications and rpm's this actually takes hours for me .
But when engines get drag raced ,
RPM's goes out the window
This is the best information I have seen on this subject, thank you.
About to go live to wrap this whole series up. Starts in 4 minutes!
Great video it answers a lot of questions my friend had one go bad and blamed offshore I will forward this to him he went roller but I think this will clarify a few things thanks
It’s easy to just say “it must be from China”. In a lot of cases, that might be correct. And there’s some off shore, cheap brand stuff out there that I’m sure probably is. The manufacturers I mentioned in the video buy their cam cores from the same suppliers and they’re both in Michigan. Crazy world we live in! I appreciate you stopping by!
I run a solid flat tappet in my 85 Tbird, I put vr1 in on break in, and changed it after 500 miles and haven’t had a problem since motors probably got 10k miles on it now, but always used 20w50 VR1 used crower cool face lifters and the cam was NOS Ford Motorsport from the 80’s.
You can try anything anyone recommends to keep your flat tappet cam alive but it is not going to happen. The oil additive packages just will not support solid lifter cams. Especially if you are running any kind of increased spring pressure. If you are building any type of early engine put a roller cam in it. I currently run either Mobil 5-30 Super Syn or entry level Mobil One, all of their ratings are within .05% of being identical. That to me is the same oil. Usually I can find it for $3.00 - $5.00/quart and I buy 5-6 cases at a time. Now a performance oil like Driven is going to cost about $10-$16/quart. With a six quart pan my oil costs $30 while the least expensive performance oil is $60 for that same six quart pan. Since you save $30 just on oil per change you make up the difference on the roller conversion eventually and you do not have the additional expense of changing the flat tappet cam and lifters repeatedly. Now let's go on to the second biggest killer of a flat tappet cam, cold/dry start. The chances that this flat tappet cam is in a specialty use vehicle: weekend car show car, drive to church car, let the kids use it for the prom car, etc.. It sees a massive amount of cold/dry starts and that kills camshafts! Put a roller in it and forget about this issue. You are not going to be able to make a flat tappet cam live no matter what you do.
I'm getting ready to start my freshly rebuilt Pontiac 400 for the first time next week. Hopefully all goes well.
Watch the rest of the videos in this series. There is information you need to know from your machinist and how to help get the best survival chances.
Enjoyed the Video. Lake Speed Jr and Billy Godbold are neat people.
I did interviews with both. Videos are in the interview playlist if you’re interested.
Recently purchased a remanufactured engine from Advance Auto parts. Followed the install and break in procedures to a T. Primed the oil system, etc. Drove the jeep easy for 9 miles and the exhaust lifter on cylinder 1 froze in the bore, causing the camshaft to slam into it repeatedly. Destroyed the lifter and camshaft, and the motor still has less than 20 miles on it. Looks to me like that one lifter never had any assembly lube put on it.
Assembly lube likely wasn’t the case. It’s gone within seconds on start up. If it’s a flat tappet engine, the lifter wasn’t rotating is most likely the issue.