Messer vs Longsword (w/ Commentary) - Sparring Showcase
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- Опубликовано: 25 апр 2017
- For this month's sparring video, our very own Messer gold medalist Sean Franklin provided some commentary for some Messer vs Longsword sparring
Swords used:
Messer - Ensifer Messer
Longswords - Ensifer, SGT
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The Complex Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Hey everyone! We finally got around to doing a sparring video with more detailed commentary, if you liked it or have any comments/suggestions, please let us know :)
I loved it, I'd be interested in more content like this.
Same! I love the different weapons as well. There's plenty of longsword vs longsword and messer vs messer etc, i like the mixing!
I loved the commentary. Especially since I can't get personalized sword instructions. Thanks for the videos!!!
Skallagrim places red circles on the zone the sword makes contact, I know it may seem little but it helps me. I don't know how much work it takes, but if it's not much you could do it too, it's a nice extra help. Still liked the video, good job.
Love it! More of the same, please :-)
Those sparks flying were really crazy, didn't anticipate that.
Yes!
3:27 for anyone who didn't see it
We like sparks and explosions. Please install a lame CGI effects software and put explosions at every blade contact.
That's what we all want.
Be careful with what you say around here. The editor might hear you.
I'm wearing a +5 Gambeson, I can handle the explosion effects
I've always wanted to try the Highlander hook the swords up to car batteries trick.
Need woosh woosh sound
R is the name 3:28
Sparring with commentary! Awesome!
3:03 "without any specific advantage of structure" I'd look again. Your stance is firmly planted while your opponent is cross-stepping and twisted. You definitely have the structural advantage here, in addition to the strength advantage.
I found it particularly interesting and briefly perplexing that most of the Messer-successes shown in the video were with thrusts, but it does actually make sense. The thrust is the longest-ranged attack with almost any bladed weapon, so it makes up for some of the reach advantage of the longsword. At the same time, most longsword users focus on the cut, which is not quite as long-ranged as a thrust would be with the same weapon. So Shawn's thrusting was an excellent tactic to deal with the reach disadvantage of the Messer. It also seems that it is relatively easy to thrust off of a bind or a wind.
An entirely excellent video.
Scott Slack With these weapons, the impact position of both a cut and a thrust should be more or less the same position, the thrust shouldn't have that much more reach. Check out our video on the longpoint position.
The reason you see a lot of thrusts as finishers is because of how the opponent's sword is trapped as you thrust, you're completely safe because they're controlled and you're getting a strike in. Unless you're performing a single time counter cut (which is even harder to do with the extra leverage of the longsword), you're not actually controlling the opponent's blade.
Really? That's a little surprising. At least with my live Messer the center of percussion is about eight inches back from the tip, which would add eight inches of length over a cut, not counting the difference in reach caused by the motions of the cut and the thrust. And reviewing the points of percussion of a few live longswords and practice longswords they're ten to 14 inches back from the tip. I rewatched your longpoint video, but it still seems to me that a thrust with the tip will have greater reach than a cut with the center of percussion. Maybe, make that probably, I'm missing something.
Scott Slack This is true, however keep in mind the followthrough of the thrust as well. It takes a few inches to cause damage with a thrust too, a small touch with a point isn't enough either. This is also especially true if you're trying to keep their blade trapped as you thrust, the deeper you go the more their structure collapses.
Ah, I see your point now (if you'll pardon the pun). That would mitigate the reach advantage of a thrust over a cut.
Sparring with commentary? YES KEEP THEM COMING! By the way Shawn just dominated his oponents which seems sort of counter-intuitive to me given that longsword has the reach advantage. Is that because of higher skill or is there something that I am not aware of? Also first i guess.
He's quite good.
Oh, he did get hit plenty as well. It's just that those ones didn't really lend themselves well to interesting commentary.
"Well, I just kind of sat there" "my guard wasn't high enough" ;)
The trick is also fighting people who aren't as experienced as you are.
See, this is how you do community engagement right. Two separate people from Blood & Iron, both attending the comments section, from different youtube channels, providing meaningful commentary.
Do you got the other clips. if you got it do a comentary video with them :)
It's great seeing how a skilled fencer can still do quite well despite a weapons disadvantage.
I love seeing sparring with commentary! I have absolutely 0 experience and usually find it hard to follow, so it is much appreciated.
Also the sparks flying off were really cool.
This was way cool. The sparks were rad. When that particular clip was played in real time you can hear the rhythm of the sword play in the fight. Very cool!
I’m glad to see swordsmanship alive and being practiced. Not only being practiced, but performed wonderfully. And such an array of people from all walks of like it seems. Which I love. Very cool!!
The commentary was amazing! Thank you for putting it in.
Just wanted to know that I really appreciate the detailed analysis + scarring videos - they are great!
Wow. Great video!
I love this style of video with the detailed explanations set to slow motion footage!
I imagine this to be a lot of editing work, so thanks for the effort you put into it!
So now, how do you beat a spear with a messer? I want this messer vs (weapon) series.
Braden Vande Plasse
I would also be interested to see how a spear can hold up against other weapons. A few weeks ago, I tried a spear in sparring and the advantage you get is just amazing
Braden Vande Plasse Hey Sean, I like this one.
Braden Vande Plasse depends on who's overall skill set is better
you run away
With a shield of course.
I love your videos keep on with the work guys!!
Love the messer, this video is great! Great commentary and just an all around wonderful vid.
Great description and explanation of technique. I can see where quick and graceful footwork plays a tremendous part. Excellent demonstration.
Great video my guy. Love the commentary.
Just what I mentioned and here it is .Love it .
I like the commentary videos, really helps understand what's going on and why.
Man there is just something about the Messer style that I love. keep it up guys n gals really enjoying your vids.
Yusss, that's exactly what I asked for, commented sparring ! Really interesting stuff.
Shaun did a good job on sparring and doing commentary! more!
Loved this video more please.
you guys are one of the best schools for sure
This is impressive. Obviously you guys are improving.
The longsword player is, by accident or intention, allowing the messer guy too close and it's causing him to be out of measure often resulting in a close quarters situation against a weapon with easier options at short range. I see this a lot. Often, longsword players go for the bind but it's my opinion that the bind is the last thing you actually want. I believe that this comes from many people who study HEMA work most of their study in the bind which is good to know but they tend to forget the the intended distance of that blade is in the name "longsword". The safest place for you and most dangerous against the opponent of a shorter weapon is at max distance. This, coupled with Newton's Second Law of Motion makes the most dangerous part of the longsword at the last several inches. Longsword players can stop close quarters threats more often by staying controlled on measure and transitioning rapidly to posts that have the ability to make continuous, rapid fire attacks with the point if need be. Think in terms of not letting them get close enough to be a threat by providing your own constant but ever changing threat of the thrust from different angles. Makes it very hard to close distance on without getting stabbed. This concept takes a lot of practice and is hard to put into words but it's how I fight and honestly don't see many others do this. I also try to use posts that provide me the best cover while attacking or striking as a defense.
Loooove the commentary
short edge parry at 0:27 was pretty slick. Good setup for the follow up oberhau.
Thank you!
nice video, please do more
Nice point about strength. And I loved the sparks.
Good video I enjoyed the commentary
Enjoyed the Messer style. Short and quick.
Eu era tão criança quando ouvi falar dessa arte marcial da Europa,e quando mim contavam histórias dessa arte,eu passei a gostar,eu um ótimo esporte.
Neat! Love the commentary, though I do like the longer, un-narrated stuff as well. I'm curious: I'd assume that the messer's one advantage over a longsword is that it leaves the other hand open. Is there any particular reason Sean didn't try to initiate a grapple with that?
You are absolutely correct about the grappling.
Grappling is already my biggest strength in swordfighting, so I was trying to make other devices work.
I like how you have a metal soundtrack for the intro and outro to your videos I like both metal and HEMA I think the both complement each other quite well,
But other times classical mu sic will suit the art as well especially Wagners rise of the Valkyries
You both are fantastic swordsman. Great video.
The movements and techniques demonstrated by the warrior wielding the Messer appear to be a glorious, and downright insidious, performance of a beautifully brutal dance of death.
I think this is my new favorite sword. The way it is designed to kill so efficiently, with its dark and seductive grace, is truly a work of art. In the dance of death, on the edge of life, you are neither alive, nor dead, but exist in perfect harmony, as both forces converge and become you.
Very skilled!
Wow, I've just thought about a scenario like this when I opened RUclips and it's in my recommened. Glad it works for a change.
Well, as far as I can tell it's actaully not a position you what to be in.
In grappling strength is obviously important, but when someone says you fight strong while sparring it's not a complement. It's implying you rely on your strength instead of improving your form.
ok that last one was so badass looking my jaw dropped
cool! would love to see sword and buckler vs longsword
I find I like to use this passing style footwork even with sabers. Keeping one foot forward at all times feels so unnatural for closing distance.
Saw realistic sparks from the clash of swords. Automatically subscribes.
Now that’s a good intro
sick
3:02 Actually, that's not true at all. If you look at your respective footwork, it's instantly made clear that your stance was much more correct. She only had one foot on the ground which wasn't even on the correct side of her c.o.m, while you had both in a wide stance and was already lunging forward. And to top it off, your arm was pretty much straightened, meaning that its bones were aligned in their absolute strongest state - hers were bent over her head. No feasible amount of strength or explosivity could've possibly turned that exchange against you; even if the opponent were to have enough power to push through all that, them pushing would've done nothing but push *themselves* back.
Very good sparring session and commentary, though~
Ya beat me to it! If she would have driven in with a shuffle on her lead leg (left) and maintained her center line posture, I think she could have pivoted into a head shot over your arm without using much strength. As it was, you cut straight in across her center, wreaked her balance and she had no footing to resist. It was more about position then strength.
Sword fighting is like unarmed fighting the more complex the technique the harder to apply and the match ends up being a series of the most basic movements like the jab, the cross with front or semicircular kicks. Although with more and more sparring having in mind trying to apply complex ones, the easier they will become even if at the begining they won't work.
Goood stuff
How would you have handled leg shots?
excellent and interesting video
regarding the instance where the messer fended off the longsword at 3:00, the longsword fighter could have swung the pommel out with the rear hand for a duplieren opportunity and struck the messer fighter on the head with a shielhau. that would have looked so cool! haha
Could you explain your footwork at around 1:23? It's like you bent your toes in, then bent them back out again, then twisted your ankle to one side and then to the other. Did you trip and lose your balance? If so, you recovered it very fast, it looks like it was on purpose.
it shows the point that a single sword is better then the long sword , you only have a short messer with little hand protection , not a basket hilt with a longer blade and you could have a buckler in the off hand
This is awesome! Now i sort of want to see sword and shield vs 2 handed... I know shield isn't common practice, but maybe you guys can consider it?
meta7 Sword & Buckler is something we train frequently. Maybe we'll put out some of that first before we mess around with mismatched weapons ;)
I noticed that the longsword has a rubber safety tip, but the messer doesn’t. Why is that?
Of course strength matters. I mean you have to swing a hunk of steel 1+ kg around. If you're stronger, you can either swing it faster, or you can swing a heavier weapon with the same speed.
Who else notices the background music is from exiled kingdoms dungeons
Really nice to see sparring with commentary.
AND THOSE SPARKS THO.
Though this does make me wonder... how much can you afford to focus on your opponent's sword? I ask this question because my HEMA instructor says not to worry too much about your opponent's sword but I can see here that even though the longsword has the reach advantage they still have to focus on the messer unless they get too confident. Maybe I'm just looking at it wrong?
Yeah, I mean when I spar I don't only look at the sword, but I look at how they're using their bodies to use the sword. Sometimes I shift more to the weapon itself, sometimes more to the body. Depends how my opponent is fighting, and what weapon set.
Yeah, I don't focus only on the sword of course. Though sometimes I end up focusing on it too much as I try to predict what my opponent is going to do next.
I don't have much experience in sparring as I've only sparred against my instructor twice (rekt both times) and, most recently, did a ten-exchange non-stop fight with another student. Perhaps it's a habit I'll break with practice if I can get some.
3:05 I am quite sure that was less on strength and more on weight and balance .
You guys ever fight sword and shield viking style? Or sword & spear?
beast mode
How about new 60 fps camera ?
More commentary spars please.
Is the finger on your right foot blue? Dislocation
Sorry there are only light cuts with the langes Messer ...no Hits to end the fight
Hey it's that music from exiled kingdoms :3
Sparkles
That was a really nice response to a pretty furious combo there (against Brittany I think).
I'm starting to feel like if your opponent has a longsword and knows how to chain multiple attacks at you (plays of the Twehrhau, in particular), the best way to beat them is to just parry the attacks and ride out the combo, then nachreisen when they run out of ideas and start to retreat. There's a distinct moment when a lot of fencers will pause after three or four attacks as if to say "oh, you weren't supposed to survive that".
Obviously a single time defense that protects you and strikes them is better, but it's kind of hard to pull off unless you can accurately predict your opponent's next move (though lately I've found myself unintentionally doing successful single time defenses when I'm trying to do empty displacements sometimes, and I'm still not sure how).
It is frustratingly common to be fighting someone (usually less experienced) and have them allow an incoming attack to hit them so they can hit you. For example, you throw a Zwerch at them to the right, then when the block throw another to the left and see them decide "I'm going to let that cut hit my head because I want to cut his arm with my short edge".
Wooooooooooooow!!!
So it can actually happen...
I want to buy 2 protective gears along with 2 swords. How much will it cost? And where can I get it. Please tell me
thehemashop, spes histfenc, purpleheartarmoury are all good places. but you'll be paying over 2000usd
@@BlacktailXD So how do i get it. I mean the equipment?
Would you not consider the weapons used here to be unbalanced?
I mean, that's a longsword feder - a lighter, faster, sparring-optimised version of a longsword, whereas the messer looks like a simple blunt messer?
Wouldn't this be better balanced with a technique-blunt style longsword?
Keeping the hand forward could be just as dangerous with a basket or schiavona hilt as with a messer. There are lots of historical accounts of hilts being bent, broken, or even cut straight through. Do you discourage using the guard for parrying?
Great video by the way, exciting to see some mixed weapon fights.
You should definitely not parry with the handguard, you parry with the forte of the blade. The guard is there in case you mess up your parry.
As mentioned you should always be planning on using your blade and not the hilt, but having the extra protection significantly changes the risk/reward balances.
What's the music?
Regarding the play with Britney (sp?), you seem to be much better braced than she is. You have both feet planted and caught her while she had one foot off the ground and seemed to be (to my relatively untrained eyes) moving at on odd angle.
Момент с вышибанием искры был хорош
At 3:03 you had an amazing advantage in structure.
Are you the voice of Trivia Murder Party on JackBox?
You know you can thrust with a longsword?
Kind of reminiscent of later sabre techniques...
You call that a knife? THIS... is a knife!
Those sparks, tho.
Why is the other guy not wearing shoes? 0_o
If a one-handed sword can take on a two-handed sword....then the two-handed user needs to take advantage of the reach they have & rush in to get the kill strike....otherwise....the absence of that tactic would premise that the one-handed sword is superior for it's ease of manufacture & the fact that you can also carry a shield.
I still prefer the axe/shield combo.
Hit em in the feet it's unarmoured is all I keep thinking
No shoes?
A lot more wrist twisting, as well. Though most of the blocks, guards, and parries weren't typically with the flat (As a lot of people assert) the Messer was actually designed for it, that's what the Nagel is there for. (Also typically fullered back "edges" and more stiffening to make it possible.) Later point forward swords like Rapiers added things like side-rings, and so forth, but they also minimized the significance of the Flat, and stiffened the blade for thrusting. So, they also flexed less in parries (Or whatever defensive action) So, they didn't have to twist the blade, just defend, and reposte. This is how they outperformed slower weapons like the Messer (Which was also a Tool. Literally a long Knife) Not because they're lighter (they weren't) but because they had more weight, and protection around the hand, a more mobile point, and you didn't have to twist around as much for an effective defense. So, you could defend, and respond, In Tempo. Unlike with the Messer, where you have to twist out of battery, then back into battery to respond with an effective cut. (Also, Armor, but that's a whole nother discussion.).
Level length? I'm not familiar with that term. Okay langesMessers were everything from what you would think of as a modern "Standard" fencing messer, to, just about everything else. They were extremely popular, because civilians could carry them too. "It's not a sword, it's a knife!" A lot of variation in Rapiers too, due to cutomizability, but that's a much narrower market. OTOH, you had wood messers, hunter's messers... It's a knife, with some swordy bits so you can sword fight with it too, but yeah. They're heavier, but more importantly they're not balanced for swordfighting, with the point. They're not as choppy as say a falchion (Which is the other end of specialization) but really designed for whatever the guy wanted a messer for, and sworfighting.
A rapier is designed for speed. pretty much minmaxed for reach, speed, and hand protection, for people who can afford to have it customized for their Arm. The messer is the pickup truck to the Rapier's sports coupe.
Because non-hema people watch this channel, and learn things like what a Messer is. The answer is it depends on the owner. Now, what did you mean by level length? I'm not a HEMA person, I've made some. Don't have a forge, and fuller set right now, but we may have some unfamiliar terms from eachother.
I believe short boxers can learn a thing or two about this
The Messer, the I don't care that I have a shorter blade, knife...?
Might I ask what messer trainer that is? I wants it!
Check the video description, we generally include swords used in there :)
I notice that Brittany is sparring without much protection to the hips/thighs/groin (and I don't know what Sean has got under his shorts but it doesn't look like he has a lot of protection either). Also in several videos you have folk sparring with bare feet. Is this normal? Do you have some rule which says 'don't aim for unprotected areas' and how does that affect the way you fight?
The upper legs, thighs and such, are heavy with both muscle and fat, and can take some pretty nasty hits without significant chance of serious injury. The joints and bony bits (knees, shins, ankles) definitely want some hard armor. On the thighs, most people I see wear either skirts (popular in BnI) or fencing pants that offer about the same protection as the fencing jackets, or nothing depending on the weapon. I personally wouldn't want to spar steel longsword without a skirt, but with lighter weapons like rapier/stick/dussac I'll skip the skirt.
An athletic cup is pretty mandatory.
What type of longsword feders do you use?
What do they weigh?
Jakob Dahl the video description will often have the swords used. The Feders in this video are Ensifer, or SGT.
Ensifer longs weigh close to 4 pounds (3.8). The SGT's are similar.
Would fighting with a Kriegsmesser (Longsword sized Messer) be similar to a Longsword? the only difference I see is that the Messer only has 1 edge.
Yeah, it'd be extremely similar. Only major difference is as you mentioned the lack of a back edge, so while you can still do false/true edge combinations, the false edge ones just wouldn't be that effective if they hit. (Bludgeoning is still a thing though, it'd suck)
Would Half-swording or a Mordhau also be valid techniques with a Kriegsmesser?
I don't see why not. They appear in standard messer.
Those using the longsword neglected their prime advantage in reach and leverage. A stable structure with proper lunging would have made short work of someone with just a messer
Personally I don't think many people would agree that strength plays no role in fencing. I think that strength plays a role.
It's just that (proper) technique tends to over come solely relying strength.
Dwwolf don't forget about height and reach
I don't Know about weapons all that much.. isn't a messer one handed to 2 handed blade?
Depends on the messer. There are some very short ones (think cutlass sized) all the way up to dedicated 2 handers that would be very difficult to wield 1 handed.
is that poe song background?)
Do you also do blösfechten?
This is blösfechten. Though we are using protective gear (so that we can fight at a high intensity will maintaining safety) the techniques we are employing are designed to be used against unarmored fighters. If we were assuming the opponent was wearing armor we would be fighting much differently.
Aka most swordfights in mordhau