Timing in Sword Fighting - Italian & German
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- Опубликовано: 25 сен 2018
- This is such a huge concept that it can't really be all fit in a video, but we figured we'd give a quick summary of Timing in both the Italian and German Sword Fighting Systems.
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Music:
Village Consort Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
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Italian hema practitioner here, we are used to think about tempo as something deeply connected with speed and distance, those three concept always come toghether when fighting.
Most people who teach the Italian systems forget about the one part of the duel timing that is rarely mentioned; and that is "la sera prima di oggi", or The Night Before Today, which is the time to check your food for poison and your wardrobe for knifemen. ;)
In before the comment section turns into arguments about how we're pronouncing words wrong from a historical dialect that no one's heard in hundreds of years.
again
No Problem the German Part was Not Bad
Haha, I kinda know how to pronounce German, but don't have a clue for Italian.
"Le-vi-OH-sa, not Le-vi-oh-SA!"
I do not know if pronounciation of the german words has changed over time, but overall the pronunciation was fine. The only word that was kind of weird in that regard was the "vor", which in current german would be pronounced more like the fore in before, but then again I could imagine the word being pronounced differently in the past and since I do not know any better, I do not think your pronounciation in that regard was wrong per se, it just sounds unusual to my ears.
You all are killing it with these excellent instructional videos
Love seeing y'all talk about the distinctions between masters from different places! Great work as always.
Haha, and even this is quite a broad overview. You can go even further and find some of the smaller differences between each one.
@@HEMASimian Definitely! I'd love to see y'all cover some of the folks that get talked about less, like Talhoffer.
@@quercusalba5544 Or Thibault...
If you want to hear more about talhoffer just come to Germany - every one and their grandma seems to be practicing it here. Sadly a lot of the interpretations seem to be not very martially valid
Great video, most combat sport or/and martial arts start by learning tempo/timing and distance. I think a lot a school/dojo don't put enough time on those practice, they do, just not enough.
Thank you for explaining and demonstrating in such a clear and practical manner. It makes the concept of Vor a lot clearer for me, which is good, because I see a lot of people going on about it, but they aren't great at explaining it as anything beyond First Move Advantage.
A thousand times THANK YOU for "being in the nacht, you are not in control." If you're waiting to respond or are on the defensive, you have relinquished control of the fight. It's repeated in the treatises and bears out in tournaments: the one who initiates the attack is often the one who wins the exchange.
My club is literally called "Indes" so this was really interesting to watch!
Very nice explanations and demonstrations. Thank you.
Thanks, enjoyable and informative!
George Silver has some interesting points and approaches on timing (hand, body, feet etc).
Agrippa has one of the best descriptions of timing I remember reading.
Wow!! I love these so much!
That was very clear, which also made it very cool. Great video.
I really liked this video and would like to see more similar ones in the future :)
fantastic work! thanks for sharing. I like the way you compare the two schools. I think the timing or tempo is the single biggest factor in any kind of fight. Can you guys expound upon this topic more? maybe include some of the stuff Silver talks about, perhaps some kendo guys could weigh in too. sport fencing also has it's own interesting concepts of time. In any case it would be real cool to see a whole bunch of coaches/ masters of different arts talk about how they understand timing or tempo. Thanks again and keep up the work. Un saludo desde Xàtiva.
perfect. i must check this site for online teaching. there are good.
Timing is everything
I'm living in Thailand. I have learned Thai sword and Japanese Katana. No European sword school here. Thank you, both teachers.
Awesome
Yes, I did enjoy that :)
I miss Sean Franklin...
We all do
@Dragon50275 he's moved to Michigan to pursue his engineering career
Blood and Iron HEMA But that's a whole different country!
Ahh, my northern European cousins....such effective people. So effective that even their "arts" are stripped of the art & taken to the bones of effective defense. Gods blessings on you, now....where's my Fiore book. In all seriousness it's good to see a more "pan-european" video from B&I. Expert material & content as always folks, good fighting & long life to you.
"Stesso tempo" means "same time", quite literally. "
"Contratempo" literally means "against time" or "time against".
"Stesso tempo" means the same thing as "indes" in this context.
"Nach" means "after", just like "posto" in Italian.
"Vor" means "before" in this context. It can be translated as "prima", or perhaps "prima di tempo".
If anything, I would translate "vor" as "prima di momento", "indes" as "il momento", and "nach" as "posto di momento". Not so much different systems as different nomenclature.
posto di momento strikes me as bad Italian. Posto means place or location in both modern and medievil Italian. Dopo il momneto or simply dopo (after). For example, Dante in Canto VII of Pergatorio wrote Rispuose:
Ok as an italian guy who also study italian literature and language it's my duty to clarify all the bullshit you are writing.
"Tempo" must be translated in this situation as moment (we use the word "tempo" in modern reality with the meanings: time, weather and musical rhythm).
So the correct translations are: "the moment before", "at the same moment", " the moment after" (in italian il momento successivo, traducing after as posto it's just wrong).
Also it's Purgatorio (the place we purge) not Pergatorio.
"Loco certo non c'è posto" translate in "there isn't a fixed place for us".
Loco means place BUT it is a latin word that we don't use now, posto means "fixed" HERE in MEDIEVAL ITALIAN (now it commonly means place).
Vor = Vorteil=Aktion, Nach =Nachteil=Reaktion
Ive got a different information about ''indeß'', what ive learned was that ''Gleich'' its suppose to mean ''at the same time'' or ''simultaneously'' and ''Indeß'' mean ''instantly'', yes they are similar. its mean that you are in ''indeß'' when you do a ''simultaneously'' or ''at the same time action'' like ''Gleich'' but one of them archieve and adjustment from the initial action to overcome the opponent. Lets say that both go for a tag line doing a straight oberhauw (there's a ''Gleich'') but one of them adjust it to a zor line to go for the cut and at the same time blocking with the guard of the sword, and thats how its transform to an ''indeß''. Thats how i understand it haha but always can be wrong, Greetings from Argentina!.
I did not find anything on this ion the comments yet, so just in case: "Vor" in german would be pronounced like english "before" without the "be" hehehhe. Just in case you are interested. Love your vids and the little funny details! Indes (I had the idea that could be related to "indessen", which would mean "at the same time (but not necessarily at the same place)). Nach sounds also fine :)
"Indessen" would be used in a story like this: "He stroke with the sword to my left "indessen/indes (maybe best in this case woud be meanwhile" I made a step to the right to abvoid and cut at his forearm"
Brothers! in german, the V is pronounced as a F
Maybe in modern german, but is that still true of older versions of german?
The V in this case is spoken as F,
the only few cases were it was spoken differently was back then when v was not only used for its more "F" like sounding but also as an "U".
In the middle ages though the "W" also was written as "V" not only the "V/U" thing so well... its a bit confusing :'
I would personally just go with the modern spelling of "F" since modern german is way less confusing then the old one, especially since nobody speaks like back then anymore.
And you can only go after manuscripts which kinda make it hard to get the pronounciation right.
Especially since im not an Expert on this i can only say what i know from my knowledge as German.
In vielen Fällen wird das "V" wie ein "F" gesprochen zum Beispiel bei dem Wort "Vorteil". Aber manchmal auch wie ein "W" wie bei dem Wort "Vokal" = 🗣"Wokal"
In describing timing, these choices of words by the Germans and Italians reveal a lot about their different thinking. The Italian terms are highly musical, almost like describing a dance. This is perhaps not surprising, coming from the country that created opera, and it fits with centuries of traditions around the world, linking martial skills with dancing.
On the other hand, the German terms sound almost like philosophy or metaphysics, as if expounding on the nature of time itself. Again, this fits in with a lot of the country's later contributions.
Gear review for the rotella please
Can you do more Glima?
Nice video, but a question: With Italian fencing/time theory, don't you think that due to time/distance being in many ways the same thing, that mentioning one without the other defeats the pupose of talking about it (Fabris talks about this in his Explanation of the two measures). Also wouldn't Silver's explanation on time (time of the hand, hand and body, hand, body and foot) also dovetail nicely with the Italian?
I don't know about other schools, but Chicago Swordplay Guild and its sister schools employ's Silver's times extensively when teaching Fiore. A little anachronistic, but a profoundly useful concept
Actually being in the vor makes your opponent being in the nach, but when your opponent goes out of line in the indes while simultaneously striking you he is in vor and you´re in the nach. So the italian terminology describes the same concept. Which btw. is essential for everything not just martial arts.
Why does the mask assistent tempo? :D
I like the technique at 4:45 . Where does it come from?
It's called the slice, or the hand press. You can find it in Meyers "the art of combat" or several of Liechtenauer's glosses. It also shows up in other misc. sources of different weapon sets, like Lecküchner's Messer book.
When a discipline has Italian nomenclature you know that it will be an elegant art
In Miyamoto Musashi's Go Rin No Sho there are three variants of timing - Ken No Sen, Tai No Sen, Tai Tai No Sen, it is like three ways to be vor :D pretty interesting....
Isn’t it : sen no sen , tsui no sen and go no sen .
@@stormbringer2840 This is what is written in my book. But it is old translation, it could be wrong...
BLOOD and IRON...... I'm torn between the Rapier and the Longsword . Im 6ft 4 at 300 lbs at age 43. Good shape. Good health.
What would you recommend and why please?! IM VERY SERIOUS about doing this training for the rest of my life so i want to put all my focus on one or the other . Thank you!!! And Ms. SMITH...love your Thors Hammer pendant. I wear one too. 💪
George Silver too guys! The English always get no love.
Please correct me if I'm mistaken but aren't Stesso Tempo and Contra Tempo basically the same thing?
Silent Space It’s similar, but stressing tempo seems to be attacking with initiative (or vor if you will), while contra tempo is meet and counter at the same time (or using indes to regain vor).
I think it's mostly down to how you're describing an action.
"Stesso tempo" literally means "same time". Lexically, it doesn't imply that the action is a counter (as in "contra" or "contro").
In the video's example a parry and an attack are done at the same time ("stesso tempo"). Both actions are performed by the same person, so the use of the term "contro" (counter) would be incorrect to describe that action in that way. However, I could also describe that action as an attack done at the same time of the incoming attack to counter it. In that case "stesso tempo" would still be correct but "contro tempo" would be more specific and descriptive.
Thanks guys makes sense.
Are you standig this close in the longsword demo because of the camera? Because you're standing in the correct Mensur in the mask demo.
Lol I love how band can be used for sword fighting too lol
Oooh I see what you did there 😂
Loved the sudden vulgarity towards the Italian style.
I have a question. How do you deal with people who "don't believe" in the sources. I have a good friend who has seen the sources and calls it "artist interpretation".
Liechtenauer FTW
I just wanted to main Warden, look where i got
I am sorry Julian. Despite how cool you are I can't forget Sean :(
Also you guys are amusing.
what about english?
I didn't realize i was watching a two year old vid.
Indes means while in german
Great video as always, but I was listening to this with headphones and the inconsistency of the sound quality ended up giving me a headache.
Nice video shame about the insult to the Italians
But what about battlefield fighting? It sounds like you're describing "competition" situations, no?
i'm sorry to say that but you didn't get the concept of "tempo" at all.. it's not "timing".
I still think getman hema is more straight forward than italian.
Calling the Italian system garbage is a indication of ones inability to understand the other martial system, or a reflection of one’s ignorance. I guess you must be well versed in all the different martial systems in existence to make such a statement. And yes I do study the German system but I would never display such ignorance. Now I will indicate to you what is ignorant, training without footwear as seen in many of your videos. Nice message you are sending out to your students that safety is of ill importance in your club, until someone steps on your toes in a bind to distract you, and cause you some pain and injury.
Spot on, very well said.
Interesting. You often speak german words to soft. Thats not a criticism just an observation.
I use guns. So none of these makes sense.
It's pronounced For, not Vvvvor, and Nach with ch like in "hello", not Nak. Otherwise awesome video.
And yes, that seems pedantic, but everywhere in the world people use the modern pronunciation and it gets confusing and grating when you hear it like that.
Oh, and Nach was absolutely not read Nak even in Mittelhochdeutsch.
There is no Ch in hello. The Ch sound simply isnt present in the english language.
@@obi-wankenobi9871 loch
I love your videos but sometimes cringe with your German. Vor is pronounced for. V's sounds like an English F and W sounds like an English V . An example would be the VW or phonetically fah-veh . ;)
great stuff, but why the cringy comedy
Italian, German... it’s all Greek to us. I’ve always hated disciplines that require the use of foreign language nomenclature. It’s the 21st century, translate that shit already and teach in the common tongue.