BookTok romance books are bad for women… sort of
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- Опубликовано: 6 июн 2024
- The romance community on Booktok has grown in notoriety far beyond the bounds of TikTok, giving rise to many-a-think-pieces across the world wide web. In this video, I explore the internet's reaction to this community and its controversies - from those worried about the state of literature to those concerned for the poor little women who seem to inhale one Colleen Hoover tome after another - hoping to definitely answer the old-age question: are romance books bad for women?
timestamps:
00:00 - intro
01:17 - everything wrong with romance booktok
02:03 - is spicytok to blame for book overconsumption?
03:50 - the writing is bad, but is that a surprise?
06:07 - the misogyny question
06:59 - the most unhinged romance novels
09:11 - if booktok is a cult, who are the cult leaders?
11:46 - the hockey player thirsting debacle
14:50 - spicy books: the questionable gateway to female sexual liberation?
17:32 - madame bovary syndrome and the moral panic over the female psyche
Videos referenced:
Swell Entertainment • the cult of booktok
With Cindy • Does the romance genre...
• How BookTok's thirst i...
Khadija Mbowe • The thirst double stan...
Casey Aonso • Exploring the Insane W...
• Exploring the Insane W...
Jack Edwards • booktok hockey smut: w...
Annamarie Forcino • BookTok Has A Boundary...
Alice Cappelle • toxic role plays keep ...
Articles and other sources:
www.rollingstone.com/culture/...
www.insider.com/guides/health....
www.latimes.com/health/la-xpm...
www.google.com/url?q=...
www.npr.org/2011/07/07/137675...
www.apa.org/news/press/releas...
www.theguardian.com/games/202...
www.verywellfamily.com/aggres...
literariness.org/2016/11/18/p...
#booktok #booktube 
Развлечения
ABOUT THE CORN ARGUMENT
hi! thanks for watching this video and taking the time to comment.
I wanted to address the section about p0rn addiction further since a handful of people have rightfully pointed out that I could have been more clear.
The explanation for the classification of p*rn addiction as "not a real addiction" from the article I cited is as follows:
"The reason for this comes down to neurochemistry. While watching porn may activate similar pleasure circuits in the brain as, say, alcohol or heroin, most experts agree that doesn't mean you can become addicted to watching porn in the same way.
That's because addiction to substances, for example, not only activates your brain's pleasure circuits, it actually changes your brain chemistry so that you can no longer release feel-good chemicals like dopamine as effectively without the help of the drug you're addicted to.
And as far as researchers can tell, this is not the case for porn addiction. So what's going on instead? The more likely scenario is that porn addiction is more closely related to a type of compulsive, obsessive, or habitual behavior than substance abuse or addiction.
In fact, people develop compulsive, obsessive, and habitual connections to many things in their lives, especially if those things alleviate anxiety or fulfill a sense of longing or loneliness." (the full article is linked in the description alongside everything else)
So, to clarify, I fully understand that the overconsumption/abuse of p*rnographic imagery can have negative effects on people and this video was not meant to argue against that.
The point of that section of the video was to show how people on social media are quick to diagnose women who read romance/spicy books with things that experts in the field have not fully figured out yet.
BUT I absolutely see your point in saying that the way I presented that information diminishes the negative impact on people on both sides of the corn industry, especially people whose understanding of what a healthy sex life looks like is shaped by the extreme images they find in p*rn films.
I didn't reply to the individual comments sooner because it was Christmas/ new year etc etc, but I've taken your feedback on board and will be more mindful in future videos.
Thanks for reading all that xx
ah this clears it a bit more ty!
doubling down on this doesn't do more than just further intensify the stigma and invisibility of porn addiction. If it's not an addiction, doesn't get seen, isn't treated, aside from the fact that since this is a fairly new phenomenon de medical community still isn't under a consensus over it - it follows the same patterns, dependency and desensitisation as other addictions. Again, doubling down on this take just feels very dismissive
You’re wrong on the whole “porn addiction does not affect dopamine release!”
There are studies on this, and yes it does. The reason why there is barely any info on this topic is because of taboo surrounding sexual topics, including in the scientific community. I’ll gladly provide the studies below:
“Brain Structure and Functional Connectivity Associated With Pornography Consumption” (Kühn & Gallinat, 2014) - Grey matter decreases when you over consume pornography
“Is internet pornography causing sexual dysfunctions? A review with clinical reports” (Park et al., 2016) - There is a whole bunch of detriments listed here that are most likely caused by porn addiction, it’s a long read.
In fact, while “Internet Gaming Addiction” is a disorder, orgasm releases either more or a similar amount of dopamine in comparison to gaming (Koepp, 1998). If Video Gaming Addiction is a disorder and orgasm releases approximately the same amount of dopamine, why would porn addiction not function the same?
I believe it can be both a compulsive behaviour AND an addiction, depending on the person. Yes, you can have a sex addiction as well imo.
I understand that you are trying to remove stigma from pornography and sex work as a whole, but you are doing harm towards people who are struggling with this addiction. In fact you are encouraging them, saying “oh yeah, well, psychology found no evidence…” which is not good thing to say in any way, shape or form.
Just because idiotic right-wing dumbasses jump on the porn addiction hate train does not mean the theory itself is invalid.
@@maialunacebrelli8012 Precisely.
Like you said, non-substance addiction is still largely being researched and looked into. But I think the fact that gambling addiction is a widely acknowledged addiction is more than enough to lend credence to the idea that you don't need to be chemically addicted to something in order to still suffer from an addiction.
I am so tired of people dismissing non-chemical addictions because they don't fit the precise medical definition of addiction. Real people are suffering from this. Just because the idea of porn addiction has been used to hurt and stigmatize people doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Sorry for the rant. Thanks for your comment, though. Always great to see more people trying to educate on this.
men discovering how weird it is that you can get sexualized for doing a perfectly normal activity while being covered head to toe had me laughing ngl
it still suck for every body
Don’t get me wrong I get that it’s ironic but that’s a really weird and messed up thing to laugh about
About time men experienced that too.
lmao i thought so too, i know it's wrong but i just cant take it >that< seriously. where im from, volleyball is really popular, specially with women, which can attract a bunch of creeps, specially when it's middle and highschool girls 😬
there was a case in a medicine university in my country where a bunch of freshmen dudes took off their pants and masturbated openly in the women's volleyball match - as a ”welcoming prank”. at some point women just stop caring that much and just accept that men can be real nasty. not that this is the right thing to do, but it is the reality.
(in the realm of my imagination i always wonder - if men were subjected to the same awful things women are subjected to, would they finally see us as human beings with feelings and necessities or would they become total misogynists?)
@@millaarts4294 Nobody should experience that though. Wishing bad things on others because they happened to you isn't the way to go either...
i hate the misogyny that women are experiencing with booktok. but i will say that as a reader, many of these books are just not good. it’s usually 90% smut with a weird and toxic alpha male character 😭 it feels like revisiting my wattpad phase from when i was 13 lmao
"I fell in love with the werewolf alpha Russian mafia boss (who kidnapped me and tortured my mind) and he likes me back‼️😱😳 AND WE FUCK ??‼️"
that's what it feels like going on BookTok in my experience...
fr, thats why i switch to another genre 😭
Wholly agreed, I genuinely don’t know how people can read some of this stuff without either vomiting or cracking up with laughter.
but is there something wrong in liking smut or wattpad? if that´s what the reader is seeking, to them it is a good book, so it could be argued that saying these books are not good is also misoginy because it´s not helping the case of letting women read what they want in peace, it´s constantly making them feel bad because loads of people are saying that what they chose is bad and they should seek ´´´´better´´´´´stuff...
I like romance in theory so much. But so many writers put in little effort and don't care about making a good book at all.
The Female Quixote (published 1752!) satirizes how women and romance books are perceived. women readers have been dealing with this type of misogyny and infantilization for literally hundreds of years
Oh what a great rec, thank you xx
Thank you for bringing this up! I read this book in graduate school and keep thinking about it and Northanger Abbey whenever I see this same old argument crop up.
as a man its funny because another women mentioned that its mostly women who writes these "spicy" books.
As a romance reader, I do think that some of the criticism of this genre is rooted in misogyny, but at the same time I'm sick and tired of what this genre became due to BookTok. I'm sorry, but some people on BookTok need to take a cold shower asap. I mostly read romance because I like the fact that is mostly character-driven and at the same time is sweet and women are shown just enjoying life or they go through a journey without having to suffer or be k!lled and stuff like that. However, due to the rise of BookTok, it mostly became about smut and I've seen a lot of people asking for it (even in Young Adult books like wtf) and authors in hope of selling their books turn their books into 90% smut when sometimes it doesn't even make sense and they throw the plot and character development out the window, totally forgetting what the book was about in the first place.
There should be a difference between open door romances and erotica, in my opinion. I do enjoy smut myself, but I'm not crazy about it, nor do I think that every romance book needs it.
I highly recommend watching Alice Cappelle’s video about dark romance and “toxic relationship” tiktoks! I think you’ll enjoy it x
What's crazy to me is how they just call it smut when a lot of it is actually just erotica. If you're book has trigger warnings and sex happens in the first 20% it's erotica which is a genre that's existed forever. 1-2 sex scenes is just adult romance. There's a weight to these things, but I agree as a long time romance reader them thinking this is new because of tiktok is annoying. Never mind these "cute little romance" books we read literally allow a lot of publishers to take on work they wouldn't be able to fund otherwise it's literally a juggernaut of income for publishers and they should respect it.
@@kgal1298 started reading a popular book. the first chapter was literally something that you would read out of some amateur erotica story.
Well maybe women want smut because the mainstream porn industry straight up refuses to cater towards them. I like the more dark and spicy side of romance (or like the other comment said, erotica) but I'm very sure there's still plenty of sfw books for people like you that prefer very sweet romance. That requires to actually do research though and to stay away from booktok or booktube. Those tend to showcase and promote the fast food of books.
Thanks to booktok I have now to search if a book has smut cause I just don’t want to read smut anymore
I didn't know booktok existed but this explains so much about why I can't seem to find good quality romance fantasy books anymore without having to battle through porn scenes of 16 year olds with very disturbing relationships 🤦🏼♀️. I miss good storylines that makes me glued to a book for hours 😢.
Fair warning, if you dive into books like Fourth Wing, Lightlark, A court of thorns and roses, among some others you might lose a lot of hope and respect for the writing community because of Booktok lol. 😭
@@infinitecurlie „a Court of Thornes and roses“ was already hyped before TikTok existed. The same for Colleen Hoover. TikTok just made the engaging easier. RUclips and Instagram aren’t that pushy with that.
what were you reading before tiktok that was so good? drop some titles pls
@@Vickynger I absolutely loved the wicca series by Cate Tiernan, Beyond the deep woods by Paul Stewart (more late children than young adults), the serie about Darren Shan, the Darkest Powers Series by Kelly Armstrong (she also wrote a second serie that ends with the characters from the first serie). I love books like that but the books by Jennifer Armentrout are a lot like the last ones I mentioned but I can hardly get through them because of the weird relationships that a seemed to be sex based 🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️.
@@infinitecurlie I have A court of thorns and roses on my to read list but I'm scared because there so overhyped that it can only be worse.... Altho I love the Ranger's Aprentice books and they are also pretty hyped 😅 (altho not for the last couple of years now that I think about it so they are also pre booktok 🤔)
ya'll its not booktok...the same thing happened to dystopian novels not to long ago. This just happens after a genre gains big time success. Everybody wants to get in and make some money so the quality goes down
exactly!! booktok helps, yes, but it's not the root of the cause at all because, like you said, the same thing happened with dystopian ya novels. or even supernatural ya romances because of twilight
still hate it lol. i feel this over saturation rlly took my love for books away.
@@killme5630 you follow the wrong people..
@@19Rena96 i dont follow anyone sweety. My reels are composed of randos
@@killme5630 I suggest reading obscure older books
I will say it is interesting to see how men feel about being sexualized now. I'll never approve it, but just being a woman online and the amount of times I've been called a s*ut or wh*re just for having an opinion about sex in media is ridiculous. Like I'm sorry, but could men also just call out their own behavior when they see their friends do it if they also don't like it.
Fr
As a guy who has read a few romance and romance erotica it is pretty easy to sort of shrug it off as of course the male lead his super hot gut. It is when he is clearly a massive asshole and shows all the worst treats that are linked to men that it gets discomfort.
No because all men profit from bad behavior of some. It sets bar very low for all of them. They will never call out each other.
@@ana-nim I'll go as far as to say that men actually BOND over misogyny. That is the root of why they will never call each other out.
Yeah all these comments i see like "oh women never get called out on it", as if sexual violence crimes weren't 99% caused by men, and only 10% of victims were men. Maybe do some introspection before finding an excuse to blame women for how 0.1% of us act (not directed at you OP but these comments).
Booktok also sexually harassed a 16-year-old biker.
I saw!!! I’ve linked to a video by someone else on the situation
@@accordingtoalina thanks!
don't think an entire community did that😂
I miss when Booktok was purely about plot, charecters and non-spicy romance. I used to be able to happily scroll through Booktok but now its all spicy romance :(
Yes omg. It makes me scared for mine because mine has very limited spice (and even then it has plot relevance to it) but I’m afraid people will just pick it up for that even tho that’s not even on the list of priorities for the story 😭
I feel like more and more books are becoming "trope" based which is why you'll rarely see a book with an actual plot.
that's your fault, I never get this stuff and it seems like you are engaging with it. click "not interested"
Oof, the romance books between representatives of two opposing groups make me so frustrated. If after the war in my country, someone pushes the book about the love between a Ukrainian girl and a Russian soldier, I'm gonna lose it.
The face claiming pattern is crazy too
Agreed, although sadly I'm pretty sure such books will be written, there's probably a couple in the works right now. At least Romeo and Juliette didn't have any war crimes in it...
I just see so many people in bookish communities romanticize the most toxic partners and relationships the most often, so I have a hard time believing that the majority of readers can discern between a healthy relationship and a toxic one. Several of Colleen Hoover's male protagonists come to mind.
I think that’s the case for children ,who shouldn’t read her books. The thing with adults is so much more complicated, because some of them could be damaged by their childhood‘s perception of love. The others just have fun with their „dark“ side. At least they are not as worrying as the people that sexu*lize actual m*rderers, like no difference in gender, fanart for sexist male protagonists, is something I prefer over fanarts for actual k*llers. (Please don’t google it. The black sheep in True Crime are so much worse than the ones in the Romance genre).
There’s one “dark romance” booktok is obsessed with called “Haunting Adeline” where the love interest repeatedly stalks and sexually abuses the MC and fans of the book thirst over the guy, claiming it’s not rape because the MC “enjoyed it”.
@unicornbarfingrainbows7599 the dark romance genre as a whole is really what has me question if the majority of people can truly discern abusive/toxic relationships. The things I see getting romanticized is insane, "Haunting Adeline" is amongst the worst of the worst I've heard about. As a transgressive and extreme horror reader myself, I don't shy away from dark topics or get offended easily like a lot of dark romance readers like to imply. I want to examine and analyze those dark themes, not get off on them.
It stated before TikTok, in my opinion. People have been mainstream romanticizing stalking and abuse since Twilight. If you want to have buddy reads of these books with your kids, (first off, how? honestly?) you need to have a conversation about how that kind of behavior isn't romantic or loving.
@kenshinnotifani I didn't say anything about tiktok. Bookish communities have been on the internet since literally the beginning of the internet so 🤷🏻♀️. Also, it's every parents responsibility to teach their kids the difference between abuse & romance (more nuances but not getting into that).
There is a reason why we can't find a good romace book easily anymore🤦♀️ I say it again, Romance and erotica are 2 different things and they should be in different sections in the book shop.
Young adult wasn't about having sex over and over again on a random tuesday, yeah sure some first experiences were portrayed, but it was more about finding ones self as a young woman...
New adult was also not about having the most toxic relationships with men🤦♀️ Fifty shades of grey was kinda the stone, that got this all rolling🤦♀️
Also promoting "romance" books with the tropes takes so much joy away, why telling me the most important part of the relationship instead of letting me find out while reading?🤷🏻♀️ The blurb is there for a reason on most books...
im okay with smut and what comes with it. What I’m not okay is, is when smut either 1) is becoming the focus of the story, 2) between minors (wtf) or 3) in YA.
ive seen grown women argue, that ya is around 18-25 but that’s NEW adult, YOUNG adult is 12-18!!! Stop putting smut into ya books, shits weird. I’m fine with implicating smut, but never outrightly describing what the characters are doing…
+ I love Cindy 🤭
Right?! I haven't read YA in a few years and I picked some up recently and was shocked by how smutty it was! 12 year olds read YA! It feels almost predatory for adults to write smutty YA.
Right, like imo it’s okay for the characters to have sex because teens do have sex, but it should either be fade to black or written in a non-explicit way that focuses on the feelings between the characters rather than their actions. A good example is the last book in the Cruel Prince Trilogy. There are ways to discuss sexual intimacy in YA without making it voyeuristic or smutty, especially if the characters are minors. ACOTAR should have never been YA.
For me, YA was like 18-20, because they aren't "real" adult but also aren't teenagers anymore, like the 12-18 can be author's like Rick Riordan, the Harry Potter series, but not S.J. Mass, Coleen Hoover and etc, because the problematic themes which I think the reader have to be more mature to understand.
(English isn't my first language so sorry if is any mistakes 😅)
I'm okay with fade to black sex scenes in YA, but that's it, basically.
Honestly I get the confusion. Especially as a non-native speaker. Young Adult implies adult. I mean i have since realised the genre is misnamed but honestly as an outsider: massively confusing.
Another problem is that sometimes publishers will put books especially ones written by women and lable them as YA despite the author not initially intending for them to be YA. Same as the scenarios of some bookshops having the tendency to put these books in the YA section.
ngl the books booktok likes doesn't bother me because low-quality romance books have existed before and have always been mass-published (my mom owns a hefty 70s-90s collection of ✨spicy✨ romance). what bothers me is that the publishing industry encourages it more now instead of daring to publish more nuanced and complex novels (that can also be romance but god forbid we put more thought into it other than hot people boink)
SHE FIXED HIM WITH HER MAGICAL COOCHIE TROPE OMFGGG I'M DYING 😭
It’s a famous literary device
@@accordingtoalina I just imagined the female lead putting love spells and sparkly fairy dust on her coochie lmao
i read the after series when i was in a toxic relationship myself. i could relate a lot to the main character (tessa) and as stupid as it might sound, those books "helped" me defend my toxic relationship because it made it seem so normal and they are one reason i stayed longer. i had no support from friends or family and i've been a loner before all my life, so i had basically no other sources for what a healthy relationship should look like and all the other "sources", like tv shows, other books, cartoons, etc were toxic too. misogyny, toxic relationships, portraying women as objects and abuse of any kind and any severity are WAY too normalised in our society
I’m so sorry you went through that with no support 😢 sending you love xx
That sounds very intense and I'm sad to hear it, hope you're better now and that you can find ways to diminish the effects of these media pieces on your views on relationships/toxicity
sorry you went through that, I hope you have found peace. this is why I will always criticize toxic relationships in media
I don't think you are@@accordingtoalina
thank you everyone for the kind words, it took me 7 years but i'm finally in a better place now!
I've been a reader of the romance genre since I was a teen, and I'm in my 40's. My biggest complaint with booktok romance is how badly many of them are written, particularly if the FMC is flat/ one-dimensional, but the book still gets outstanding reviews. That makes it difficult to trust reviews, and it's getting harder to find something I want to read in the genre. Also, the lack of character development of the FMC in many of the books is such a turn off. That being said, society hates things that women enjoy for pleasure or fun, especially young women. I think there's room for critique, while also acknowledging the misogyny in a lot of the criticism.
Do you have any good romance recs from your time reading over the years?
A lot of women love watching true crime stories, where most victims are women. It seems that a lot of women also love reading "romantic" books with awful, toxic men being love interests... I'm not a psychologist, but I'm pretty sure there's something in here😅 Our subconscious desire for self-destruction? Evolutionary need to be aware of potentially deadly scenarios?
I’ve also wondered if it’s a method of processing threat/trauma in a way that feels safe. I think many women are hyper aware of the potential for violence (and often gendered violence) in the world, either because of personal experience, witnessing others, or hearing about it. Maybe engaging with media like this takes some of the power away from this threat, at least mentally/emotionally? Also not a psychologist, just something I’ve wondered about 😅
@@allisonyoung8549There are two aspects to this: judging from genetic research (Y-chromosome bottle neck) prehistorically and historically women tended to have more children with the more violent of men, who could 1. capture and enslave them, but also 2. defend them and their children from others. While it for sure must have been extremely unpleasant, it proved more successful in the long run - so more of those women's offspring survived until today. And the second point is: Just as some people enjoy horror stories, even if they would not like to encounter a monster in real life, some enjoy a story about a toxic erotic relationships without having a wish to encounter such in real life.
processing trauma and crisis lol. my biggest fears are being kidnapped d whatnot, so reading abt it kinda helps in a way
Could be way to see what not to do to see red flags esp regarding true crime
@@Chociewitka The problem is when many women do want to be with someone like Zade Meadows (Haunting Adeline) for example, and the difference between horror and this is that men like him do exist.
Idk i use booktok as a metric of what books to avoid. Anytime booktok praises an author or their books as being amazing i know it’s probably trash and it goes on my skip list. Thats after being super engrossed in booktok during 2020 and being beyond disappointed by every single rec. i think in the future it will be seen as bad for a writer to start on tiktok. Which is unfortunate and obviously not all of the books recommended are bad but it’s just the growing negative connotations around booktok thats bound to prevail.
Girl, same. I'm probably missing out on a few books that I'd like that way but I'm also missing out on books I read back when I was 12-mid teens on Wattpad and have no desire to read again and that's a fair trade for me.
Though, tbf, I wasn't hooked on booktok. I had a bunch of booktok recs on my TBR list, was about to start with SJM books because people raved about how good they are, but there was some divine intervention and I saw withCindy's video on ACOTAR, decided to watch it even though I generally go in blind to books and was saved from reading smut under fantasy's clothing.
Sometimes it depends on which side of BookTok you get to because in 2020 and 2021 I found pretty good recs, but they weren't romance books. After that, everything went downhill 🫠
Funnily enough, I use it for the opposite. I wanna see what's super popular and then read it for myself to see what's up.
Even though I know that it's just going to make me cry into my pillow every time with how bad it is.
@@infinitecurlie I could never. I wanted to try to read CoHo and Fourth Wing just to see what the hype was. Tried to read Fourth Wing and I forgot I was even reading it until right now. I don't forget books I'm reading. Haven't tried CoHo though.
SAMEEEEEE
I can't believe romance books that follow the *growing* relationship between the *same* two characters over *several* books isn't even a thing. That's only possible where the romance is the sub-genre and even then, the characters are most of the time already in love by book 1 anyway.
It's because if the relationship is the main plotline, stretching out the relationship over several books can lead to lackluster middle books. You have the beginning of the relationship (which is exciting), the getting to know each other (which is fun, but only works if there is tension over whether or not the characters will end up together), then the end where they finally get together (what everyone is waiting for). If the timescale of that isn't handled well, it loses the tension and becomes boring.
It works when romance is the subplot because there are other main plotlines to keep the reader's attention.
that’s my comment featured in the video! this is exciting for me lol, but i also want to clear something up: i do know women are also sexualized a lot for doing normal things, especially playing sports. i think sexualization of anyone especially minors is awful, be it men or women, and i was just sharing my own personal experience i’m not trying to like say sexualization for playing sports is revolutionary bc ik women have experienced it for so long. anyways, great video as always Alina!
Yes it is! Thank you for sharing and don’t worry - I know you didn’t mean to minimise women’s experiences by sharing. Hope you’re having a happy holiday x
Your comment communicated your distress for the absurdity of the situation really well. And thank you for this one confirming that you sharing was to add to the video topic and that you do understand its wrong for anyone anywhere to experience it. I hope you stay safe on and off the ice. Have a happy 2024.
I really liked that you touched on correlation vs causation. I 100% believe that those "endangered teenage girls" would never be influenced negatively by dark romance books if they grew up in a healthy nurturing environment and have been experiencing healthy relationships since early childhood. At the same time, would girls or women even feel drawn to dark romance if they didn't have some type of real life connection to the subject? I'm not sure but at least for me it's for sure past experiences. It feels vulnerable to share that because if you do, suddenly everyone's your therapist and has all sorts of opinions what you should and shouldn't do but yeah. Reading those books doesn't interfere with my private life at all and I'd rather engage in toxic relationships in my own head and via books than fall back into that pattern irl.
yuppp and maybe its just me but i dont think its THAT hard to separate reality from fiction. There are sooo many tropes and things we can come across in books and just flip the page or not bat an eye that would be completely unacceptable in real like and i dont find making that distinction difficult? Obviously this doesnt apply to teenagers and books that are marketed to them but i do believe that maybe an adult woman is capable of discerning what is acceptable in fiction and isnt irl. That how i navigate dark romances at least. Plus i personally only really read as a form of escapism and not really through the lens of critique (nothing wrong with that!) so maybe thats why i dont get the uproar?
Personally I can read smutty kindle unlimited books one day and Tolstoy the next. Just because you read romance doesn’t mean you aren’t intelligent
Exaaaaaactly
thissss
If someone says that you ask them if they watch porn or sports games and if we are to base their intelligence on solely that.
My problem is with the dark romance readers who constantly say how much they would love for those things to happen to them. It kills me because I genuinely can't tell whether these people are serious or not. I do think these readers and authors have a huge dubcon/noncon fantasy problem and giving more fuel to r*pe culture. I'm seeing more and more books with vile and descriptive scenes that shouldn't be necessary. Ever.
insert Haunting Adelina; Zade Meadows
4:24 I can’t help but to laugh when thinking about people who don’t consider audiobooks “real book.” Book are basically a type of vehicle to tell and share a story. But the original vehicle to share a story was…oral storytelling! Writing down stories came much later!
THANK YOU!
Literally this! We read books to children and those children reap all the benefits of reading by being read to.
Fascinating and well researched discussion. Daniel Pennac, the French educator and writer, describes Bovarysme as a 'textually transmitted disease'. In his 10 rights of the reader, Pennac has as his sixth right 'le droit de Bovarysme', the right to mistake a book for real life. I haven't yet read Madame Bovary but Catherine Morland, the naïve young protagonist, of Jane Austen's Northanger Abbey is also unduly influenced by her reading matter.
Oh I love that! And Pennac!! Thank you so much for sharing this x
All these books are like those wattpad romances that 16 year olds would write of what they thought has a healthy relationship. Those books ruined reading for me for a while, and messed up my views on what i good healthy relationship is. So i left wattpad in hopes of finding better quality books that actually have healthy relationships with actually depth to them. Instead i get these wattpad wannabes follwoing me to the bookstore 😮💨
The whole “audiobooks don’t count as reading” thing is also inherently ableist.
Are you going to tell someone with a visual impairment or dyslexia that they aren’t reading?
This!!! Not to mention that there are centuries’ worth of oral literature, before people started to write things down. Was that not literature? People are so silly.
All these things had to be said! It is so bad that booktok romanticises toxic behaviours especially in young girls. I literally feel worried every time that I see a 15-18 year old falling for all of those characters!
i get hockey clips on my fyp, mostly funny ones, but i’ve definitely noticed an uptick in people making weird comments about the players themselves and i feel bad because no one should have to experience people talking abt their body without their consent no matter the gender
People shouldn’t talk without your concent? Wow😂
@@emryborge7027 do you hear that whooshing sound far above your head? that’s the point. you just missed it.
I fall in the middle.
On one hand I am sick on men looking down on basically anything were the target audience is girls/women and think of them as bad quality because they cant relate to it. Even if women could also complain men enjoy a lot of stuff that is either shallow or has been already been done 100 times before and boring. (Every shooter game ever for example)
But on the other hand, holly shit some women online really do push garbage in the spotlight, especially in when it comes to story telling media. I can only describe it as ”Glorifying mediocrity.” especially when it comes to romance stories.
I think romance is actually a very hard to write if you want to make it the main aspect of your story instead of just a side plot. Because you have to write very solid characters to basically carry the whole thing and avoid becoming boring story dragging too much after the first 50 pages. You have to really make those characters have interesting backgrounds, fun&complex interactions and scenes that make then work and grow to reach their goals. Its honestly hard because the world building or the relationship with other characters far less important to the readers.
So what do most ”modern” writers do once they realized how hard it is? Well a smart one rethinks the story several times until its good or make the romance secondary as importance after all. A lazy writer will just say ”Fuck it!” and just add shock value after shock value scene to give us the impression that the story is not bland as hell.
And its honestly embarrassing and giving asshole more reasons to be condescending when all the popular media with women as the target audience is indeed bad quality content.
The Alex Windberg situation annoyed me so much. I remember people jumping on the wife for being “insecure” and what not. Did they ever consider that she wasn’t? Maybe she thought the jokes were funny at first. Maybe she always thought they were funny. Maybe ALEX HIMSELF started feeling that way and confided in her about it because she’s his wife? Did they consider that maybe she loves her husband and respects his boundaries and wanted to stick up for him? I thought she handled it wonderfully.
It would be more productive if people focused on the problematic content of certain types of books that uncritically revolve around toxic relationships and romanticise such relationships instead of shaming young women for enjoying romance books.
THIS! You can’t believe how much I cringe every time I hear mafia romance. What’s so romantic about that underbelly of the crime world?
@@barbara9315 I kinda feel those ppl left wattpad too soon
OMG YES!!!! I wouldn't be able to count with both hands of mine the amount of books that romanticized toxic relationships, grape, and SA. And Ive never see ppl talking about those concerning topics without being shamed, ignored, or misinterpreted!!!
I am so happy you made this video because for a long time, this is exactly how I feel about them BookTok books. Same characters (usually involving a male love interest saying ‘who’s ur daddy?’ Or ‘who’s a good girl’), same plot (or lack there of), same ‘stakes’… And what really pisses me off is, when the book is a romantasy, the guy is almost always the flirty type who calls the girl ‘darling or sweetheart’ and he’s ALWAYS got dark hair, tattoos, a big dick and dark skin but not too dark that he’s considered a POC but just tanned…
And yet people still consume this repetitive shite.🙄🔫
In what world is p0rn addiction not clinically recognised as an actual addiction? That's insane. It follows the same stages, from initial use to tolerance and dependency. The content has to slowly increase in intensity to reach that initial high. Some people end up looking into CP, for example.
It's an addiction and an extremely dangerous one, imo. The gender of the addict doesn't matter. If medical professionals are dismissing this issue... there goes what little faith I had in the system ig.
I'm not an expert on addiction classification but I just want to point out that the gender DOES matter when it comes to this thing. The huge problem with porn consumption when it comes to men largely has to do with how they enforce this objectifying views on women and how a lot of content they consume hinges on an industry that actively exploit real women. I'm not saying that women can't have this problem too, but there's a huge difference between horny women who can't read books without spice and a man actively searching for videos of leaked sex tapes because they don't think of women as people
@@losj3020 I'm not either, but it seems to me that you're talking about the effect p0rn has on society as a whole (misogyny, violence and the horrors of human exploitation that go on in that so called industry) I'm thinking more so of the effects on the 'addict' themselves. Not to mention that spicy booktok is starting to view men in the same dehumanizing way if their recent controversies are any indication.
this also rubbed me the wrong way, to say that porn addiction isn't an addiction in itself feels a little too much like negating it or a way to dance around the topic/try to find some other mental illness to explain it away. It's exactly this type of dismissive attitude towards porn addiction that makes it so hard to diagnose and to treat, because it's not seen as a 'real' problem or a problem of its own. Downplaying something or tucking it under a different category is a big step in stigmatising and denying its existence
@@losj3020saying the industry is exploiting women is far from accurate.
@@maialunacebrelli8012 I mean, addiction is a huge label and experts are just treading it carefully. More than any other addiction, it's one that's heavily defined by society's views on sex. Also they're probably careful bc of the larger implication of actually treating it as an addiction. In conservative spaces "porn addiction" is often used as a scapegoat to "explain" problematic behavior rather than addressing larger systemic issues (e.g. "these men rape bc they're porn addicts" rather than "these men rape bc society they live in let them get away with it lightly"), and "porn addiction" is a really easy label to slap on anything resembling normal interest in sexuality. I'm not saying it's not an addiction, but calling experts dismissive isn't gonna make anything better
The conversation about how women interact with literature is so so interesting! As you discuss, often many women are not taken seriously for their interest in reading because of the assumption that they are reading "low-grade" literature. And even if they do read those texts, they seldom get to talk about them outside of their respective online communities. I 100% think much of the criticism stems strictly from misogynistic structures within the world of literature itself. While there is validity in criticizing the way some women manifest their "spicy" interests into real life, I definitely feel as if much of the backlash they face is in not reading enough of "real literature".
And just a side note that I find ironic is that men pride themselves in their vast literary knowledge but as I'm currently doing my BA in English, most people in my literature and criticism classes are women lol!
Just finished Madame Bovary and thought it was very good, but even better as a book to discuss.
A question I saw was "did she fall, was she pushed, or did she jump" (metaphorically), I think it's all three in an accelerating spiral of society's unfair pressures, her need for personal agency, and self destructive behavior as punishment and poisoned reward.
Her husband being painfully mediocre and receiving praise, and almost never being blamed for huge mistakes was good.
Also had great examples of masculinity being defined by time, place, and culture (like men wearing earrings and cosmetics), not any kind of strict gender roles regressives like.
It's sad how some things never seem to change, but it was a worth while read.
Yessss, the debate around her victimhood is so interesting, isn’t it? So glad you enjoyed that part of the video x
"this idea that women are so easily brainwashed by what they read and need to be protected from the evil sexy books" 😂😂😂 so funny. I read different genres, high literature, and cheap literature. I don't think my brain has shrunk every time I read a cute romance story lol
I wanted to add one thing to this video that I think not many else have pointed out or know, but as a writer and someone who markets their own book, writers in every genre are painfully aware that these tiktoks and reels about concepts, tropes and scenes are one of the only (if not the only) way to get attention towards your book. Especially when there is such an oversaturation of books, it's really hard to distinguish yours from the others and when readers say "we don't want to see books marketed this way" i want to point out that writers don't either. We don't want to have an emphasis on particular tropes, or scenes. A lot of writers are trying to come out with better books but at this point, publishing companies usually want this exact type of books or scenes or whatever to make it easier to market (they also expect you to do this marketing yourself which is a whole other thing), and even in the self-pub groups it's similar because again, this is what goes viral. It's really interesting how other than a particular sect of readers and writers, as well as publishing houses, most people are really dissatisfied with how the book community online currently is.
I find it really upsetting when people on BookTok promote books as “romance” with spice, when there’s no plot and just smut. This may be controversial, and I’ve not seen anyone else talk about it, but we should stop normalising the idea that a book can belong to the romance genre and be made up by 90% smut; that’s not a romance novel, at that point it’s straight up er0tica. And it’s fine if you want to fuel your own addictions by reading those books, the problem becomes when the most popular books and authors promoted by the sight (which has a predominantly teenage audience) tackle sensitive subjects disguised as romantic, when they are, in fact, just toxic.
I can’t begin to explain how damaging exposure to this content is for a developing brain. While everybody is blaming TikTok I think a bigger evil are the book stores that place stacks of these books out in the open with tables entirely designated for them with no warnings, and publishing houses for not placing the proper disclaimers in their books. I’m sorry, but saying a book is YA or New Adult says nothing about who shouldn’t be reading said book within the targeted group; a YA book, while intended for 13 to 18 y/o may have themes more appropriate for 16 or older for example, but by saying it’s YA it’s basically a free for all and parents have no idea of what their kids are reading and if it’s appropriate for them or not. My 11 y/o sister asked for Fourth Wing for Christmas because she likes dragons and my parents asked me if it was good for her age which I immediately said no to, however I don’t blame them for thinking it is, especially when our bookstore is always promoting it as a fantasy epic with dragons, and forget to mention the romantic themes that are heavily featured in the book and, in truth are not appropriate for young teens.
A few comments have mentioned this is a trend and it’ll go away, the same way the dystopian genre had its boom after the Hinger Games, and I really hope that’s the case.
TL;DR: Booktokers should stop promoting er0tica as simple “romance + smut” books, as this only feeds toxic and sometimes destructive behaviours as normal, romantic or sexy, which stunts the development of young readers whose brains aren’t fully developed until 25, the age where supposedly New Adult as a genre ends.
I feel the same way about Fourth Wing! I bought it at an airport and became incredibly uncomfortable with the random sex scenes in the middle of the book and had to stop reading. It looked like a book I would have read at 10, but with no visible warning! Don't get me wrong, I will read some brain rot books, but never in public, and never without prior warning. I was very concerned with Fourth Wing ending up in a lot of young teens hands. It seems like the publishing industry and bookstores have no sense of decent censorship and keeping these books from children.
i really appreciate how much you incorporate other creator's content in your videos and give viewers so many other resources to turn to for more in-depth analyses of subjects you don't have time to go into! and as always thank you for taking such an objective stance and exploring these nuanced topics from multiple perspectives, it gives everyone a much clearer and accurate picture of the topic
aaahh so glad to hear you enjoy the other content mentioned - I'm always nervous that people might find it distracting, but there are so many clever people making great content on RUclips, it feels like a disservice not to talk about them! I also think there's a strange quiet competition between creators at times, where everyone is talking about a lot of the same things and making similar points but they don't acknowledge watching each other's videos, which is a bit sad.
THANK YOU for saying what I wanted to say in such a clear and kind manner.
@@accordingtoalina Just wanted to add that it was refreshing for me to see a creator visually add her references into a video in such a easy breezy way. I quickly scrolled down and was delighted to see the references were linked too! okay maybe this is a weird comment but its a 10000% meant as a compliment for me this is a video essay that actually felt like a proper essay. I like all different styles of video essay from the silly chaotic to the seriously structured but I just thought for the topic, your personality and the framework it was really idk satisfying? Oh and it was nice to be like omg I watched that video too or oh I'm gonna save that one for later. It's a video where you can see that you are a part of the different social media book communities and you aren't just jumping in or out for content only. You seem to deep dive in a way that treats the subject seriously while also not stuck on your judgements only or pushed around my other peoples. Seems like you're an open person to good faith arguments/people which is really nice. ok this is probably getting confusing so thank you for the video! I hope you have an amazing 2024 :)
@@sophiehiiithis is such a lovely comment and not weird at all!! I’m working on doing the topics justice and being as nuanced as possible while putting my own opinions and a bit of my personality in there, which is not always an easy balance, so I’m happy to see that people are enjoying the result! Happy 2024 to you angel ❤
I think TikTok is just the latest crystallization of this effect. The same was/is said of RUclips, Twitter, blogs, the Internet, tv, radio, newspapers, and so forth. And now more than ever, and more quickly than ever, can all these opinions be thrown out there, allowed to coalesce into trends. Everything is viral now, almost by default. And it's not remotely contained to booktok. It's a huge problem in politics that has always existed, but is similarly being exaggerated by how we communicate now. Mob mentality reigns, the truth is what you can make go viral, for all intents and purposes.
I'll leave you with a more hopeful quote from Proust. "In reality, every reader when he is reading, is the reader of his own self. The writer’s work is merely a kind of optical instrument which he offers to the reader to permit him to discern what, without the book, he would perhaps never have seen in himself. The reader’s recognition in his own self of what the book says is the proof of its truth."
Well said
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
I’m not going to lie, there’s more backlash because it’s a women centric genre, so of course misogyny is a key factor here. But at the same time, I just want books to be good again. I want better storytelling and better standards for publishing. 90% of books popular on Booktok are wattpad books and if I wanted to read those, I wouldn’t have to pay for them. Same goes for smut. I need a good story (and the author to put in effort) to enjoy the smut.
This was actually an interesting expression of your opinions regarding the "conversation" (if it can be called that) about this genre.
Regarding the issue of the books becoming cookie cutter versions of each other rather than well developed , well written books, for many of the books, probably a majority of them, this is true. Having said that, I totally agree with you that most of the readers of this genre are not seeking out these books to find the next literary masterpiece. It is more of a light, fluffy read that they are just in the mood for, each for their own reasons.
For example, I read them strictly for entertainment, escaping the realities of some of the hardships in my life for a brief sojourn. For that reason, I want the feel-good, happy ending, pleasant, non-smutty books which used to be the norm. Unfortunately as the world of media has become more and more graphic about sex, authors are apparently compelled to deliver more and more of it and it does sometimes come across as a vehicle to get in as much smut as possible with less and less of anything else. I can't believe I am the only one who wants to read "nice" romances, and no, I don't want them to be Christian romances. So where are those books for those of us who have very healthy, fine lives. No we are not suppressed. No we are not prudes. But, we do find that some things should evoke feelings and not just bodily sensations and they actually lose their beauty and meaning when reduced to pages and pages and pages of words. Am I living alone in my world here? I can't believe that. Where are all the books for us?
The Wattpadification of the book industry
U just wrote my thoughts about this all, sometimes I wonder if those girls (readers and writers) have their wattpad phase
This is really interesting to me as an aromantic person. I don't tend to read romance books often since they're usually amatonormative but when I do the way women are treated and the marketing they have always baffles me, but I thought a lot of it was just that it wasn't related to me. That probably is still true but its nice to know that it is a flawed system still.
I maybe hated for this, but as an avid reader and book hoarder its just a book, if people cannot sperate fantasy from reality then thats an issue that needs to be personally dealt with. It seems EVERYTHING is toxic now and we cant just work together anymore.
Yea honestly this is tiring... always being analyzed for liking certain books. Not sure why people act like it's the end of the world. It's the same situation as when Twilight and 50 Shades were popular. Let people read what they want.
There's critiquing a story and meta-criticism/analyst. I'm all for both but I do get annoyed at how many people think they are one and the same. Yes, certain trends or certain information reiterated constantly in fiction can be indicative of societal trends and that can be infered from many books/stories but that doesn't mean each individual story is to blame. I'm tired of people thinking their meta criticisms should be forced to change every story and I'm tired of individuals protecting certain stories without understanding every criticism isn't a person attack on liking something.
I've been trying to find good romance books for a while now, but so many are terrible. Most newer romance books are just full of abuse, violence and "spice". It is incredible hard to find a romance book that has good plot and chemistry between the characters. I tend to ignore booktok overall, most books promote things I cannot support or just dislike, many are badly written and extremely repetitive.
Yeah, I'd like if people knew how to criticize Colleen Hoover (or whoever is writing THE trashy romance at any given moment) without bringing the "she's ruining teenage girls!" argument. Women are not stupid. A book can be absolute dogshit without representing some kind of societal ill. In a way, it gives me a certain paternalistic vibe when people say that, and it's not even just men who do it, but seemingly everyone? But yeah, I liked your point about violent videogames because it really is the same kind of moral panic, but for some reason people don't take it as a ridiculous idea that women will fall into abusive relationships over fiction, while they would absolutely call someone blaming a school shooting on GTA V a loon.
Good video. I quite like your channel!
Right?? There’s plenty to criticise about the genre without this lazy argument. I’m so glad you’re enjoying my content, thank you so much for watching xx
I agree! I am so mad at pepole calling us that likes colleen hoover inexperienced readers. I think her books are good in the sense that they are fast paced and dramatic. I don’t se them as role models for godd relationships or something like that. In real life I don’t want a bad boy. Just like in real life those gamers probably don’t want to be in a maffia gang and shoot all day long.
@@Enhallbarbokmal I believe every author brings something to the table, even if it's not for me. Colleen Hoover obviously does something right if people like her, regardless of how me or anyone else may feel about her work.
That's just to say, I've never read her, but you're probably right, and she does something a lot of authors can't do. Besides, it's fun escapism. Who is to say you're "inexperienced" if you enjoy her? People are too quick to judge, and life's too short to not read what you enjoy. And if there's anything to criticize, it's definitely not her "ruining women", turning readers dumb, or whatever people like to come up with.
I don't get people dusting off the "it's ruining teenage girls" argument as if it has no merit though. I obviously cannot speak about everyone and what I'm going to say is from my own experience but having grown up reading Wattpad stories similar to CoHo's books during my tween-mid teenage years, those books fucked up my perception of romance. And I'm not alone. Over the years, my taste evolved and I got into the ranty portion of Wattpad and so many people there echoed my experience. It was in that space I started learning how the behaviors exhibited by men in these sorts of books can range from toxic to even abusive and to romanticize those actions in my own life would lead to a life I didn't want to live. I'm glad that I didn't get into any relationship then and that I've had the time to condition myself into preferring and romanticizing healthy relationships instead.
I don't play video games and I'm not a boy/man so I can't speak from that lens but I have read books and watched shows and movies that had all kinds of violence, yet those never affected me the same way. Those had a degree of separation in some way, whether it be that the stories weren't set in our world, or it was a different version of our world, or that I knew I wasn't capable of committing the depicted heinous acts of violence against anyone. But romance is real, wherever it is and I am capable of love. I am capable of loving until I bleed dry and some more and I knew from my experience with platonic relationships that I would give my all to my partner. And those books told me that if you give it your all, your partner will love you, no matter how they were previously. They'll change for you. And if they didn't, you need to suck it up and try harder. They will, one day and you will be the only star in their universe. They taught me to think that so many acts of abuse were cute or that they were an act of love. Can you believe I once thought the man "not being able to stop" despite the woman begging him to--- or even just saying he might not be able to stop so are you sure--- was a compliment because that meant my partner desired me so much it overrode all his self-control? I was as staunchly against rape/any kind of SA or sexual harassment then as I am now. The woman I am now weeps for any child that romanticizes/romanticized such relationships.
And it's not even women/girls who are affected by toxic/abusive romantic tropes. Where I am from, movies show that the guy who doesn't give up gets the girl. She says no? Stalk her, catcall her, ruin her pre-existing romantic relationships, give her the threat of your su*c*de, etc. and she'll come around. And I have had a handful of men who have basically said, "but in the movies, the guy that doesn't give up gets the girl" to a "no". And that might not sound like much but that's a lot given that I don't associate with a lot of men. Maybe it's different where you're from and I'm happy if so but I come from a place where fiction affects people and people affect fiction.
Now, I'm not saying that today's teens would be the same as me/us. Maybe they'd be able to draw the same line for romance that I was able to draw for other genres. And I agree that using just this one argument to criticize CoHo is maybe not the best idea. However, that doesn't mean this fear fellow women and girls express is without merit. Some of us have lived through romanticizing abusive relationships because of fiction and some have been in abusive relationships because they didn't recognize what their partner was doing was abusive [as per stories of women in said ranty niche of Wattpad and women in the comments section of videos criticizing stories like CoHo's (mostly hers though)]. We're not looking down at fellow women/girls when we say "hey be careful what you're romanticizing, it might affect young girls who read these books", we're looking out for them because we're worried and we don't want them to end up in a place where we once were.
Sorry, this got long.
@@irenemendoza5785 A lot of authors have done what she does, it's just that they either aren't published anywhere other than spaces like Wattpad, Ao3 and their many clones or they aren't as popular.
Source: Again, I grew up reading those kinds of books. They were also fast-paced, easy to read, easy to get hooked onto, most were 'spicy', had a bad boy/dominant LI, had very basic prose, etc. etc. The only difference is that we read them for free, people are paying for that nowadays.
I appreciate your perspective on this issue. I understand there is no conclusive evidence that there is a negative impact on romance readers and their ideas of a healthy relationship, however I can say from personal experience that this was the case for me. When I was a teenager, I read a lot of smut from fanfiction. I wasn’t aware that published smut was even a thing back then. But from the published smut I have read in my early 20s it seems like a lot of it resembles the fanfiction I used to read. I can confidently say that certain toxic and abusive relationship dynamics were heavily romanticized in my head due to what I was reading, and it ultimately lead me to an abusive relationship from ages 16-19. It took me a good few years afterwards to unromanticize the things I thought were normal and healthy in relationships, and even longer for me to understand that I was abused.
I know this is my own personal experience, and it is also different to reading smut from published authors, but I worry that the publication of these books makes these toxic ideas more accessible, especially to young readers. The way I see it, this kind of writing can be pretty damaging to young minds that are still growing and developing. However, if an adult chooses to read these kinds of books I think it’s less of an issue, as long as they know how to separate fantasy from reality.
The whole issue makes me believe that books should have a much clearer rating system (pg-13, R, etc). I know it wouldn’t solve everything, but I think it could help, especially in the case of young readers being exposed to explicit content
i find nothing more annoying than this patronizing handwringing that always goes along with criticism of romance books. i dont read much romance and im not on booktok (so i cant speak to whats going on there) but the condescension towards romance and romance readers has reached new heights ever since booktok got popular and im so sick and tired of it. the idea that women cant deal with reading about toxic relationships without wanting to emulate them? the idea that women somehow cant distinguish between fiction and real life?
its always "oh but its romanticized, the problem is that it got romantizised!" like. i could not care less. books are not here to educate people on what a good healthy realtionship looks like. theres people who enjoy the drama and the grand feelings. theres ppl who enjoy skirting on the edge of danger, of respectability, of taboo, of toxicity, of whatever. let them have their books!
of course the next argument is and will always be: "will someone think of the children!" and i dont want to seem weird, but i was a teenager who was very much interested in sex and a teenager getting into smutty books to quench their curiosity about it seems like the best possible outcome imo. like what do people want them to do once they develop these interests? serious question. watch studio porn? hentai? overwatch blender porn? ao3's explicit rated fanfics? the smutty side of fanart twitter? i dont think reading some erotic romance is necessarily the worst option out of all of these.
but its not a sincere argument to begin with bc ppl dont actually care about whether teenagers read these books or not, they just use it as another bludgeon to bash over the head of ppl enjoying things they dont like or dont understand. the everending cycle of these same stupid arguments over and over again seriously annoys me so much.
Ohhhhhhhhhh perhaps I clapped.
I think it honestly depends on the book. Some romance books -- Seven Days In June comes to mind -- are really well written and feel almost like literary fiction. However, that being said, I am not a romance fan at all and only ever read them when I want to challenge my taste in literature.
Discourse surrounding the "ill effects" of the romance novel on the female psyche (and perhaps the society at large) has been around since the 1700s. And yet--and YET!--women are still somehow existing just fine. Perhaps on an individual level, yes, sure--one young woman reads a book and thinks abusive behavior in a relationship is okay. Maybe. But are we going to attempt to save every girl who gets the wrong idea from reading a Colleen Hoover novel? And isn't that antithetical to the other modern concept that women don't need someone to save them? It's dizzying. Are women to be trusted to save themselves or do they need society to save them? Which one is it exactly?
I agree with everything you've said, however, porn addiction is definitely a thing. Are there people who struggle with their sexuality and therefore view their own relationship with porn as an addiction? Yeah. Are there people who need to watch porn in order to engage in sexual activities? Yes. Are there people who develop sexual disfunction due to porn? Also yes. There are many testimonies from people online about their struggles with porn addiction. Not sure why I'm writing this comment, but I did so there is that.
yeah i really didn't understand that part of the video? like just because porn addiction isn't classified as a mental disorder doesn't mean it doesn't exist and can't be incredibly harmful. shopping addiction isn't classified as a disorder either but i'm pretty sure we can all agree it can be debilitating and lead to problems. i find it really harmful when people use the excuse of "you're just uncomfortable with your sexuality bc of what you grew up with/religion/purity culture/etc" when it comes to things like porn and porn addiction bc porn itself is already incredibly harmful on its own (the conditions it's created in, the incredibly negative and unrealistic view it gives of sex and human bodies, etc), let alone if it gets to a point where someone could consider themselves an addict. anyway i just don't think it helps the video's point at all and is instead incredibly harmful to imply that porn addiction is straight up not real. of course it's usually a symptom of something greater (sex addiction, other mental illness, etc), but porn addiction is still harmful and can heavily negatively impact someone's self-worth, relationships, personal life, etc.
edit after thinking on it a little more: overall i really liked the video and agreed with a lot of it, the points on porn addiction were the only ones that made me feel really iffy.
@@efwino Thank you for pointing out the harms of the porn industry, I wanted to but I already felt pretty stupid by the time I posted my comment lol
I completely agree with everything you said. Many disorders and addictions were not originally classified as such and one could argue that all other addictions such as alcohol, drugs, sex, shopping, etc. stem from things like depression, trauma and more. I don't think it's fair to rule out porn addictions on the basis that it hasn't (yet) been formally recognised as one. Not only is it doing harm for the people who do struggle with porn addictions but also for society at large i.e how porn affects men's perception of women and women's perception of themselves, how it impacts the rates of domestic and sexual violence, etc.
I think that part should have either been left out of the discussion or have a more nuanced discussion about it.
Anyways, I hope you and everyone reading has a great holiday!
Hiii! I fully understand where your comment is coming from and I wish I'd done a better job of explaining myself in the video itself, but alas, I didn't. I've pinned a comment addressing that, which I hope will offer some clarification x
@accordingtoalina thank you for taking the time to talk about this. At the end of the day, having a discussion is important to understand these topics. I hope you have a great day and a happy new year :)
@@vertigoghost it’s my pleasure and I’m so happy you got something out of the video! happy new year to you too!
love this video! I am currently getting my Bachelors in English literature & one of my areas of interest is both romance and erotica. I regularly read romance novels and have been wanting to write an academic piece about them, but i just havent had the time. Your video has given me new motivation to do so :)
I’m so happy to read this! Good luck with the essay and your BA xxx
While I agree, I want to point out that what we consider appealing is social and cultural. While the idea that certain books are dangerous to women is infantilising, we could also be critical of sexism.and misogyny in books, because we already live in a world in which women are subjected to sexism and misogyny to the point that some people do think that there is nothing abnormal to it. This is a bit like the idea of meritocracy. Of course in a world in which everybody was equal meritocracy would be a thing. But this is not that world. Thus a book with strong misogynistic undertones would have no effect, because that would be just fantasy. But it's not just fantasy. The same way we are questioning works that are highly misogynistic when aimed at men, the shoe is just on the other foot. Both times women are told that this is fine, the norm and it's as it should be, while existing in a context in which we are aggressively told by politicians, "thinkers", cultures and history that this is natural, normal and how it should be. Art is political, it can't not be so. Generalizing is of course a bad idea but pretending that there is no context, cause and effect is also insufficient.
There’s a lot to be said about this topic!
- I think it’s okay to enjoy smut once in a while but if you can’t go one book without smut then it’s it’s a corn addiction.
-the romance genre has always been downgraded by misogyny but it’s not okay to blame all of its criticism (most of the times valid) because of it.
-From what I’ve seen is that the dark romances promoted on TikTok are first, promoted to very young audiences that should not be reading those types of books (coming from someone that started reading Wattpad at 11 and deeply regrets it) and secondly, promoting problematic/harmful recommendations that can confuse people (ex. haunting Adeline). I do think there are some good dark romances out there but many of the ones that are constantly talked about in booktok don’t have explicit (written) talks of consent/boundaries in them, so it becomes SA and r@pe which become romanticized.
I have so many thoughts of this topic but I think I’ve written enough lol
Ehhhh, porn may not be recognized by the AMA, but it works similarly to addiction, and because of wide spread access to porn, the AMA will likely revisit this topic later as it’s fairly new. The AMA has only considered addiction a disease at all since the 80’s. Porn gives you dopamine hits when you feel bad and allows you to avoid personal intimacy for a variety of reasons. While I don’t believe AT ALL that smut coincides with that, men absolutely do have problems with porn and it’s often nothing to do with cultural or spiritual values. It is more often in line with people who were deprived of emotional cultivating or touch/abandonment. And while that is an underlying issue, porn itself has a deep effect on dopamine and the amount of access you have to dopamine hits at any time you want is absolutely a form of addiction. People masturbating so much that they have problems having sex or can’t get things done is addiction to dopamine.
Hiii! I fully understand where your comment is coming from and I wish I'd done a better job of explaining myself in the video itself, but alas, I didn't. I've pinned a comment addressing that, which I hope will offer some clarification x
As a trans guy, I’m tired of the lack of queer representation and queer romance on book tok. It’s always the same cisgender, heterosexual, toxic, and spicy romance.
Non ci avevo mai pensato, spunti che danno da riflettere ❤
Great video, I also booktok is a big purveyor of true crime fiction too because it’s considered to be for women/women’s genre. These books just feel like they can be potentially harmful. Like romance and books with spice aren’t a bad thing but when it bridges into dark romance/romanticizing abuse, harassing humans in the real world that aren’t involved in your fantasy. That’s when it gets scary & concerning. Additionally, a lot of the books aren’t even well written which makes me sad, like there’s good romance that can be complex out there that’s a lot more enjoyable in comparison to the booktok book of the month. I think ultimately read what you want but remember that what you read isn’t real and you need to be aware of what you consume. Not to mention the fact that some of these books are labeled as YA and contain all this sexual content. Younger generations are going to read these books and it’s not appropriate for them to be consuming because these books are marketed to 12-18 year olds. I’m by no means a puritan in terms of books, sex and other things have their place in books but you can incorporate it in a way that is more age appropriate. Fade to black scenes, etc. These books are bad and neither are the people who read or write them, just be aware.
Women having a more discerning taste by reading smut and exploring sexuality in a safe, speculative way without the physical presence of men equals a porn addiction... I don't even read romance but the prudes making this argument are in no way trying to understand why women read smut LOL. I have no idea how many women on BookTok really are ONLY interested in smutty books (as opposed to having a wider taste, although I imagine smutty book *content* does particularly well compared to other genres). But it's so obvious that people have a knee-jerk discomfort with women discussing erotic things openly with each other and want to reduce their tastes in literature to only that.
Reading smut doesn't equal a porn addiction, just like watching porn doesn't equal a porn addiction.
Not an expert on this, but porn consumption can be similar to gambling, overeating, etc. So it'd make sense for it to be somewhat similarly addicting and harmful if it turns into an obsession, a core part of someone's every day life.
@@Kyuupire I think I agree with you, and I'm not an expert on psychological addiction either, but if someone had a relationship with porn they considered unhealthy and wanted to abstain from it, I'd never argue with them. What bothers me about the criticism of women reading smut, though, is that I've never heard of anyone saying reading dirty books became a serious preoccupation or an unhealthy thing in their life. It seems like the porn addiction criticism is completely just an accusation from total outsiders who are uncomfortable due to their own hangups and biases around how women should express sexuality. You know? Like I said I'm not a romance reader myself but not every book that has sex in it is solely made for erotic purposes (though some are and that's ok). It's like people don't realize there's no hard line between art that expresses and explores sexuality and outright hardcore pornography. People see someone praising the sex scenes in a work of fiction and want to degrade that book and its fans as just lustful heathens. People outside these book communities are approaching the conversation with a negative bias; they don't even know what these books are like nor do they seek to understand them on a deeper level than uhhhhh it's sexy.
I suspect that the knee jerk reaction to women and smut is largely cultural. Between years of images of pure innocent women promote in the culture and they idea women are just not into sex, that it just throws people off when it turns out women love smut just lie men.
@@stephennootens916 mhm yeah. The virgin-whore complex with a side of shock because these women aren't even having sex (or at least, the books can't do that for em... lol)
So glad I found your channel, such interesting and entertaining videos! Thank you 🍂
A pleasure to have you here ❤️
Love your delivery and insightful topic. Subscribed.
Nice to have you here!
I think a lot of booktok is looking for fanfiction. You want to read the same coffee shop meet cute with the same characters but different prose 40 times you can. You want to read unabashed smut here you go, a whole novel worth of one shots. Plot or no plot fanfiction covers a lot of bases and slash is a good majority of it (though not entirely)
You’re steadily becoming one of my fave new finds on RUclips 🙂 Happy Christmas!
Awwww that means a lot, thank you 🥹❤️
In an industry where the product is 99.9% produced by women, 99.9% consumed by women, 99.9% discussed and controlled by women, any problems or criticisms stem from... misogyny.
Ikr? As a dude i dont even have an opinion about most of these books because i dont even use tiktok. If women dont want more books with toxic masculinity stuff, they should just not buy them. Out there must be someone writing a romantic novel about a girl and a feminist guy.
Considering how prevalent actual porn is among the newer generations,and how everyone tries to make it seem normal and the widespread inability to create healthy sexual and emotional relationships,I find it interesting how the fact that readers want a happy ending with all the bells and whistles and none of the drawbacks is what rubs people the wrong way.
I think you’re underestimating the amount of erotica and pure smut in the books discussed.
@@pithygrapefruit Not at all,actually. But I do think it’s a cleaner alternative to actual people performing those acts in front of a camera.
A couple of things that I feel that I’ve noticed, although I’ll admit that I’m not much of a reader, but I think I’ve noticed a pattern with booktok. First off, I will be talking about dominant/submissive (D/S) dynamics because I think it’s highly relevant, stop reading this comment if you don’t want to think about this. I state this because I am the kind of guy that tends to fantasize about being a sub with a more dominant women. I bring this up because this presents me with a sort of issue with that I have with the, let’s be honest, erotica or borderline erotica, that’s being promoted on Booktok. Seemingly all of the books feature a romance with a male dom and a female sub. I think that actually does make sense because most of the readers, I would imagine, are female subs, but I would like a book that flips this. That’s not to even mention how other people, particularly non-white people of all kinds and trans people are left out of this. Gay men seem to have a lot of representation in BL, but I’m not sure how much of that is booktok, and I would hope that lesbians have good rep too. I think that more representation of all kinds is needed. Admittedly, what I’m wanting might very well be out there, and I’m just not hearing about it. I also think that, if you are going to do an f-sub/m-dom dynamic that there are ways of making this man hot and powerful and just the right amount of topic without bringing too much real world bad. Why does this guy have to be connected to the literal KKK or Nazis. The guy can just be something more generically toxic or just have a genetically toxic upbringing. My actual main point here is that I think, especially in the realm of relationships, that there is a massive difference between dominating and leading. Dominating implies using threats, violence, and manipulation to control another. Leading implies using confidence, building up of others, and willingness empathetically care for others to inspire another to chose to follow them. I think that what most of this TikTok women want out of these fantasies is the idea that they can turn their minds and even their bodies off (and on in other places) and just live in this space where they just imaging feeling what some super hot guy is doing to them, and I think hopefully that this understanding between dominance and leadership creates at least a tool for writing hot, power, leading, men that are not so toxic.
I really enjoy listening to you and in my opinion, you always have good points! Wish you a merry christmas and a happy new year🥰💫
Awww thank you lovely! Happy holidays xx
Love the video (just subbed haha)!
I'd like to contribute to the last point. I think these types of books can be dangerous when they are 'dark romances'. These novels glorify a lack of consent and reflect values of violence against women commonly found in 'corn'. Sexualizing these themes can lead to desensitization for the reader, as 'corn' does to viewers, and people then seek extremes that are more violent in order to find a better more intense stimuli.
I also think that these books in particular are not be-all-end-all because obviously women have the ability to discern whether the content they consume will affect the way they are, and the values they will have in their personal lives. I'm more concerned about the causal roots stemming from the patriarchy. I believe that certain women like dark romance and say they enjoy themes of being abused in a sexual setting because they have been told their whole lives that this is what men want, and that pleasing men is the most important thing, so that you are interesting and different and not 'vanilla'. Myself included as well as many people I know have consented to dangerous activities to please men, at the detriment of our mental health and safety in order to please a partner who likes to hurt women in order to be stimulated. I was led to believe that I wanted these things through interacting with men, as well as seeing content and positive reinforcement surrounding abuse in the bedroom, and backlash when the other side was brought up.
I'm obviously one opinion of many, but I believe this due to experience and my own research into the 'corn' industry as well as the mental health repercussions of consuming dark content for stimulation. I am open to differing opinions, though!
Overall, I think people should be more wary of what they consume, whether they actually enjoy it or have been convinced to believe that they enjoy it, and the effects it has on their health. I'dlike to protect women from suffering in ways I have seen, and I believe feeding into 'rake' culture and dangerous activities in bed to please men is dangerous, if not properly examined and reflected upon by the consumer.
completely agree with your point about dark romance pushing real-life patriarchal gender roles to the extreme and the popularity of the genre should raise questions about how women see their role in a romantic relationship and where those beliefs stem from. I kind of wish I'd elaborated more in this video but at the same time, I feel like Alice Cappelle's video on the topic is great and I didn't want to just repeat her work (really recommend watching!)
This is sort of a long and anecdotal response. I don’t use TikTok anymore, but I’ve read a handful of the books they obsess over bc they’re still pretty hard to avoid if you’re into romance and/or fantasy. Ngl I’ve liked dark and toxic romances for a long time. I could probably go as far as to call it one of my autistic hyperfixations at a point. It felt good to explore these dark themes within the safety of fiction, A.) bc being a reader and the men being fictional technically puts you in control of the situation even if the men are Andrew Tate-esque sexual offenders, and B.) bc I felt relieved to know that I wasn’t the only one who had these dark sexual interests. Obviously they’re popular for a reason.
I also liked watching the video essays that ripped them apart, bc even I could recognize that the writing is never amazing. It is definitely adult Wattpad, and while I don’t think that’s really a big deal, it’s still kinda funny to acknowledge. The only part of those types of videos that I didn’t agree with was when they acted like the media we consume was going to corrupt us and drive us into bad relationships, like my dumb girl brain wouldn’t decipher a good person from a bad person. I’m an awful judge of character naturally (whether that be from autism or personality, I don’t know). I’m not good at reading other humans almost at all, but even I could tell you that I wouldn’t find these men sexy irl. They are literally Andrew Tate. I’ve always hated that argument, and it’s almost always presented like someone talking down to you from a high horse. They read it like an actual book, but honestly it really is just porn with plot, and the toxicity is like emotional bdsm building up to the smut. Take the sex out, and Colleen Hoover wouldn’t have an audience.
What I’m trying to say through my rambling is that it is refreshing to see a take that doesn’t jump to demonizing these books and infantilizing the people that read them.
Booktok is wild, though. I think romanticizing minors has slipped into a lot of TikTok communities and it’s just more noticeable in the one that centers around romance, and it isn’t uncommon for people to emotionally latch on to their favorite content creators and then become severely defensive. Idk, it just feels like this is how people generally are with the media they like, and they just fixate on booktok bc it’s easy to make fun of women liking dumb self-indulgent things. I guess Twilight is what I would compare that to, but straight up bullying is considered uncool nowadays, so if you just validate it with a cancelable offense, you can say whatever you want about them and anyone who argues can be dismissed as in support of bad behavior or just brainwashed and naive.
I’m so tired of the narrative that women can’t read whatever they want or aren’t intelligent enough to separate fiction from reality. If you can’t and choose to only read things that are ‘acceptable’ to you, that’s FINE. If people are enjoying it, get over it already. Not everyone wants ‘real’ literature and this is coming from a lover of both. This narrative is ignorant.
i think i agree with the point about women learning from the relationship dynamics when they're adults, what I worry about is the CHILDREN reading these books - it's happening. 12 year olds reading coho likely do _not_ have the critical thinking skills to pick up the unhealthy dynamics.
That's the parents problem. Readers and writers don't exist to parent other people's children.
I used to love romances like bridgerton from Julia, but I can’t stand it now! Not bridgerton, but everything that stared after. It’s freaking sick and the amount of normalization of toxic agressive relationshipp!!! I used to ready Tessa Dare, Julia and others, but now The books are short and there is no romance, just sex and fight. There is no story. I’m really worried for the new young woman. They Will ready this and think it’s normal. Just like it was with “After”. I don’t undestend why this kind of romance is into “woman’s books” and normally it is uncover by sex!!! So, yes we always have been juded about it. But now, it looks like a 13 old girl right down a dark romance in a normal romance.
My only real issues with book tok are the same issues I have with most short form review and recommendation content on social media. The videos are just too short to really get a feel for the product, assess its quality, its good and its bad, ect.
It's more like adverts than actual reviews. which have their place, but like, not when they're being called reviews. I'd like just a little more than "These books have this trope!" Followed by a list. Even just, you know, showing the blurb or providing a very brief, spoiler free summary. Amd book reviews that have a little bit more than just "oh, it had this trope, I enjoyed it". Just, idk, tell me all the feelings you had: were you excited? Thrilled? Shocked? Squeeling and rolling around in your bed because of how happy it made you?
I'm not asking for literature student type reviews, I just want a little more than shortform content generally offers.
As someone who consumes my “spicy reading” in the “lowest form of writing possible,” (outside of possibly false adverts for books about alpha wolves) I have NEVER understood this.
What is the “lowest form of writing?”
Fanfic.
I’ve read character study fanfic set in a pretty accurate historical fantasy medieval setting that are better than most published e-rot -itca in stores.
I’ve also _written_ character studies, picking usually a character I really like, have an idea to see if the way I understand them to be slightly different than fandom feels about them, and then diving into said character.
Only to never talk about my fic stories I write as anything but dark fantasy exploring what it means to be human and that romance, what one wants out of a relationship, a long term relationship, building a life together when you’ve got not just the normal biases of society against you, but also (as I like to put it) “the equivalent of magical organized crime,” and what happens when someone is only valued for their bloodline of magic and if you cannot create good enough magical heirs, or any at all, you often are used in conflicts the higher ups know you won’t comeback from.
I can pitch that to someone who likes more “traditional” romance with some explicit scenes, and they want to read it.
Until they find out it’s using _one_ character from a fandom, everything else being original or based on our own folk tales irl, and original characters to fill out the roster, and they immediately ask if I’ve ever written any _real_ stories.
Also, I swear, despite being an English major at my higher degree, this is just English Lit snobs attempting to pass themselves as Historians and philosophers because they read the signed reading for a 4000 level class in their BA, and now think they know what really makes the world tick, thanks to probably just being forced to read something in Uni and write about it.
I read dark Romance and other types of romance all the time but it has to be well written and good. I don't go around acting like the book tok women do not all the women on it but some.
I want to add one another problem these books or rather booktok is that very young girls like of the age 12 and 13 have started reading smut and even dark romance so that can cause problems in their understanding of a lot of things about relationships ig
my problem with booktok’s obsession with “dark romance” specifically is that all of its fans regurgitate the same old “the hatred is rooted in misogyny” argument when the subgenre itself is misogynistic. they like to hide behind the “its fictional” wall and absolve themselves of all the analysis and critique. yes, it is fictional, but our choices as women are not made in a bubble, and are influenced by the society. there is a reason why in dark romance it is never the man who is r@ped/abused/sa’d/etc etc. at some point you have to stop and ask yourself why you as a woman enjoy the literature where women are being degraded, and why you are attracted to the men who do the degrading.
thats my argument exactly many books can get away with problematic stuff just because the dark romance label .
Hi!! Thanks for putting the time together to make this video, I loved it so much.
I was laughing so hard when you got the French accent out. 😂
I know that you already made a comment about the porn argument, but as someone who is a young girl; who has been a victim to porn addiction, and who knows many people who have been a victim to porn, it’s really not fair that one article/researcher have the power to call it “not an addiction” when it really is. Many women and children, and people just in general, have been hurt from porn; whether it’s because of the addiction or being trafficked into it. This comment can really marginalize victims like myself. You don’t need to have “an internal problem” to feel hurt and rotten while watching porn. I just wanted to make sure that I was heard here.
There’s just so much more to have unpacked here.
As for this video idea itself, I will take your side about how romance isn’t bad for women (I think that everyone should read it), because a good majority of your points were very valid!!
But for BookTok, it’s a bit different, since people try to categorize erotica as romance… And I feel like that’s just an insult to the romance genre.
Lust and romance are different and separate, that’s why they are two words…
Many people have already brought it up in the comments that most erotica BookTok books feature extremely toxic and controlling male characters. It’s not even romantic, it’s abusive.
So that type of content does not have the right to be labeled as “literature” and especially is harmful towards women and how we perceive relationships- because this is how abuse can start to be normalized.
Believe me, the lines DO blur between reality and fiction. That hockey player and BookTok girl were a GREAT example of that… And of how out of control things can get.
Anyways, thank you so much for your thoughts and willing to hear out/listen to your viewers for feedback. 💜
what's wrong with using the correct French pronunciation for French words?
Nothing is wrong with that, you brought it up as wrong; not me!@@JenDunndot
I love your video essays because you use genuine like evidence and its amazing
I mean, there are literally people who cannot get off without porn so ehhhhh… there’s evidence on either side of that argument.
And like i stumbled upon a fantasy romance once and i thought the concept was interesting so i read a bit and- it was dual pov and it was PAINFUL. Like horniness isn't love my dudes.😭 You don't love each other or have a deep connection, you just want to sleep with each other.😭 I'm sorry but that is just sexualizing whoever is the love interest at the moment and i was uncomfortable as heck. So i didn't continue and i am never reading anything like that again, give me my classic fantasy.🖐🏻
the thing is that romance novels, especially smutty ones, engage the readers' emotions heavily- it's becomes an experience (just look at the extreme reactions to people who criticize their favourite book and the strong arousal many express they felt). Which means that it most definitely will affect the way they see a similar experience in real life and, depending on the love interest displayed, lead to desiring an unhealthy dynamic or simply becoming overly shallow, because these books focus so much on bodies rather than personality
Love your content. Pls make more😊
Thank you for watching, I sure will!
You can say that criticism towards booktok is rooted in misogyny but you have to understand that it’s rooted in thinking that smut isn’t intellectually valuable.
4:47 On the topic of classics vs. Romance online (specifically on tiktok) I do think it’s also interesting to note that a lot of the people criticising the romance booktok stuff, when they’re not middle aged straight men, are also often queer people and women, which I think might be specifically because Booktok tends to be centred around straight romance unless you’re in some specific queer niches… but then again, I’m not sure how often misogynistic classics authors (who are also mostly men) are any better than writers of booktok romance books
ive been waiting for someone to make this video
Yay!
Is listening to audiobooks reading? To old ears like mine it sounds like saying you listened to a song by reading the lyrics. But, language evolves and I don’t have a better word for the generic action one does to a book, so, yeah, you read the book.
And maybe I’m an old prude because some of those first reviews seem inappropriate for a general audience, but I feel the same way when a guy gets too vocal about how, say, some spicy anime affects their bits. As long as they’re not otherwise toxic about it, I’ll maybe caution them if children are present but otherwise be content to exit the conversation.
For my part, I’ve always written romance off as “not for me”, but that’s mostly by reputation. I’m sure the smuttier side isn’t for me, but some of the comments here suggest it’s not just “bodice rippers” and some might be more like watching a rom com. I can enjoy those, so maybe I should give the genre a chance?
I’d say let people enjoy things, but that’s a bit too “all lives matter”. So, I’ll say: Let women, even young women, even girls, enjoy things.
First off I'd like to say that I truly enjoyed this video, I thought the discussion was a good one and I agreed with almost all of the points that were made, I generally really enjoy your content and am always interested to see what you'll come out with next.
I did have to wonder though if there wasn't a better way to adress the criticism about romance books leading to porn addiction then to essentially say that porn addiction doesn't exist, I understand that you didn't state that explicitly but it did come across that way to me. Although research has still not come to a concensus regarding porn addiction there are still people out there who struggle with porn and would consider themselves porn addicts, furthermore it is a topic that is still being defined and it has been suggested that it might fall under broader terms such as internet addiction or sex addiction or as was stated in the video it might be a symptom of something else. Although it was only a small part of the video I wanted to bring attention to it because I think it is good to be careful how we speak on topics that are surrounded with controversy and stigma to not further stigmatize those that might be struggling with it.
If you took the time to read the whole comment I appreciate it and I hope it is clear that this criticism is only meant to be constructive and made in good faith ❤
Hiii! I fully understand where your comment is coming from and I wish I'd done a better job of explaining myself in the video itself, but alas, I didn't. I've pinned a comment addressing that, which I hope will offer some clarification x
also, thank you for the feedback in good faith - it's always appreciated!
Thank you for your reply and taking the time to address this and clarify your point further, I appreciate it! I totally understand that sometimes things don't come off the way we intend and after reading your pinned comment I have a better understanding of the point you were making. Look forward to seeing your future videos and hope you had a happy holiday ♥
Bizarre misogyny sandwich sounds like an album that got a lot of hate in the early 90s.
great video, so interesting!
Just going to throw in my two cents here: my sister and I were big romance readers in middle school, approximately ten years and some change ago. My favorite authors were Nora Roberts and Amanda Quick. A lot of those books still hold special places in my heart and are very nostalgic for me, but we both began moving away from those authors because they also became very formulaic. Tiktok consumerism may have accelerated the trend, but this just happens. Just some anecdotal support for your nuanced observations.
i never even considered this take, love the fresh perspective!
Thank you for watching ❤
I've read Icebreaker. And for those who do not want to watch your recommended videos I will explain - 95% smut, 5% plot. On biker subject. It's bikers themselves that "called" booktok girls attention. It happened so, that one biker had a girl who was reading and told him about the Booktok tag. Suddenly videos with bikers calling out on booktok girls flooded. In those videos they said "Booktok girls belong to bikers. End of the story." "Relationships should be 50/50. You read, I make it happen". Or something along those lines. And they also pretended to read (or actually read) Haunting Adeline and some even quoted this book. So, if now they are complaining - they are at fault themselves. If you just investigate this, you will understand. Spicy romance readers didn't know about bikers until they themselves jumped into this rabbit hole and provoked them with sexualized content. Just because they wanted more likes. I know this because I am following bookstagram and I recently started following bikers for their bike content. And this happened. So, tired of bikers making smuty content, I just blocked Bike tag.
The only issue I’d have with a genre really comes down to a double standard in how language is policed by people on social media when it comes to responding to spicy novels.
That Booktocker saying “kitty drooling” is painful to listen to, but overall is more accepted than if a man said something similar. If a man read a spicy book and referred to it making “his tip wet” he wouldn’t get an equivalent response to people on social media.
Sometimes I think some books should stay in the online fanfiction pages... and people mistaken real life with fiction isn't something new. 🤔
I’ve been dabbling in the romance genre with a bestie of mine but so far we’ve just encountered a lot of trash. I’m a literary fiction reader and shes a thriller/horror writer. At this point we’ve just started a small bookclub between us where we read old super racist and sexist romance novels that were written in the 70s/80s so we can just laugh at them. I enjoy Katee Roberts paranormal romance series, but as a comedy, a dragon with two dicks c’mon that hilarious. The times where I’ve encounted romance in a novel and it genuinely move me or “do something” for me, its been in literary or classic fiction.
But I will take other peoples romance recommends if y’all have any 💅
For your recs, I recently enjoyed a romantasy series (it'll be a trilogy, and only 2 are out rn) called The Liar's Crown and The Stolen Throne by Abigail Owen and I personally enjoyed the female mc (especially in book 2! There's this one moment where the male love interest says something cringey that was love related to her and she mentally responds with "Oh...Well okay" lol) there's some cheesiness to them but I found them pretty enjoyable! They're upper YA and I think both books only have 1 "spice" scene(and they're adults!) each that's pretty short and actually makes sense timing wise to the characters lol