Is There A Wrong Way To Sit?
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2023
- Sometimes called "W-sitting," this popular way for kids to plop in front of the TV has been stigmatized for decades. For most people, research indicates it's just fine. But a small percentage of W-sitters do have a problem.
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I used to get in trouble in school for sitting on my knees instead of cross-legged during floor time. What teachers didn't get is that position was physically painful for me. My hips were so tight that my legs didn't relax into the floor, and all the weight ended up resting on my ankles. There was no way in hell I was staying like that for an hour at a time.
I feel you, I was always forced to sit cross legged in school too and absolutely hated it. I'm glad to see that my daughter is given the option to sit on her knees, with her legs beside her, or cross-legged at school, and not forced to just one of those positions.
Though she did have a day home that stigmatized her for W sitting when she was young and we made it quite clear to them that it was NOT ok to criticize her for that, especially in front of other kids.
I hated sitting on the floor in general as a kid, because of my legs. Short of lying down, there weren't any floor sitting positions that I could tolerate for more than a couple of minutes.
My legs just go numb when I sit cross legged for more than a couple of minutes. I argued a lot with teachers. They just don't want to deal with anything out of the average
I prefer crossed legged but even so I do not know how to sit that way without cutting off blood to one foot. 🙃
I usually get calluses on the balls of my ankles from sitting cross-legged in my chair.
I sat like this as a kid. I have cerebral palsy, so in my case w-sitting was more a symptom than a cause of problems.
Guess it's really stable, isn't it
@@user-do5zk6jh1k I was going to say something like that, because even though I don't have CP,, I found even sitting cross-legged as a child uncomfortable as it offered little back support, forcing me to lean back with my arms outstretched & palms on the floor..
I used to sit like this as a kid
Now, in my sixties I can still sit like that and can get up from the floor from various positions and can do asian squats.
Not to worry ...
@@Athena621 I'm impressed!
My daughter had that too when she was born but she grew out of it
I was born pigeon-toed (inherited the trait from a grandfather), and I remember my mother constantly yelling at me and punishing me for "sitting on my feet" because somebody told her it would make me irreparably crippled or something. Getting yelled at didn't fix my turned-in feet, or hypermobility (which also affects my arms, so I can't see how sitting one way or another "caused" it). Neither did the ballet classes I was sent to at age 5 and hated. Eventually my mother took me to some specialist who told her point blank the only way to make my feet straight would be to break both of my legs and re-set the angle of the hip joint, and that he wouldn't do it to a child if she paid him a million dollars over what was basically a cosmetic defect. She finally stopped hassling me after that.
Thank goodness for sane doctors.
Jesus christ.
Your mother surely sounds like... Some type of person. Wtf. Glad the doctor shut her down there.
Still wild though
What's wild is that I'm also hypermobile with anteverted hips and my parents were fine with me sitting on my knees. I became obsessed with knee sitting and turning my feet out when walking. Guess what that practice does? It torsions your femur into a corkscrew. Eventually. One extremely painful adolescence later with crippling, constant leg aches every doctor dismissed as "growing pains are normal" - I no longer have turned in toes. I didn't know that was what was happening, I had no idea my leg aches would stop if I stopped turning out my feet on purpose, I had no idea my femur was twisting. But eh I guess if your mom hadn't been up your ass about it you might have ironically a more straight gait. It def hurts tho.
I wish I had that doctor… I’m in my 20s and my parents still harass me for how I will stand and sit when they see me
I have pigeon toes and hypermobility too! I wonder if their connected?
As someone with hypermobile Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, no, it isn't fun party tricks. Some of my joints randomly and very painfully pop out for minor reasons or even no reason at all. I had a collarbone pop out from shoulder and sternum end at the same time because of sleeping on my side. I've had my SI joint dislocate because I shifted in my seat. I've popped out ribs because I've sneezed. I dislocated multiple vertebrae from a fall. I hate being this way because something somewhere hurts on a daily basis.
Same
Thats sad
wow, that's horrible
My hips used to do that very often. They'd always pop themselves back into place and swell up for a day or two afterwards. It hasn't happened in the last year but I know that it can and will happen again. At one point it got to be so routine for me that I wouldn't even tell my employer when it happened. I'd just limp on one leg for the day. I always assumed it was because of my arthritis...That might be something for me to look into, as I'd never heard of that syndrome. Thank you!
My elbow went out yesterday because I lifted a 6lb suitcase. My neck is also slowly collapsing in on itself, causing unbearable migraines and cervical pains almost 24/ 7. But hey, HSD's are so fun because my thumb touches my wrist, right?
I am 23 and I still sit like this, it is simply the most comfortable way to sit on the floor for me
I'm a retired Adv Practice Nurse who has worked Peds Ortho for years. You hit the high points on W sitting but missed a few.
We saw kids with in-toeing for many reasons...everything from hip to feet problems. We many times discovered they sat W style but that wasn't the reason for the visit.
Sometimes problems are easily corrected and sometimes not.
In my experience W sitting wasn't the cause for the problem but rather an indicator that there may be a problem
There's nothing unnatural about this. They're flexible and they'll find their own comfort zones. I think we need to be more concerned about the people sitting unnaturally, like an office chair for 8 hours a day.
this is actually not natural, most of the time it is caused by hyper flexibility or bone deformities
My daughter has loose ligaments so we don’t want her to sit this way.
Sitting like this is natural? Sure, but “natural” does not necessarily mean “good” or “safe”. The problem with sitting W-style is that it greatly stabilizes the body from the hips up through the chest, which can cause weakening or atrophy in the core muscles over time. Sitting up straight in a chair or “criss cross applesauce” passively trains the core muscles to compensate for the lack of stabilization, strengthening the core muscles as a side effect. Children who already have loose ligaments, loose joints and weaker muscles usually cannot afford to lose more strength, so W sitting is often discouraged.
@@Pirategirl4nightwishW-sitting is a because of hypermobile joints, it doesn’t make them worse. People with hypermobile joints sit this way because it’s more stable, and it makes their back not hurt as much. As someone with hEDS, and as a mom of an hEDS kiddo, my best advice is to get her into sports that encourage strength over flexibility (I.e. not ballet). I was told in my 20’s to never stretch after exercise, as it basically undid all the strengthening I did. Best advice I’ve gotten so far.
@@katie-kb6qdit’s natural for someone who is hypermobile. It’s more comfortable. I sat like that as a kid, and so did my daughter. I lean on anything I can find- I’m always seeking stability. I stand on the sides of my feet on a regular basis. It’s just how I’m made. I’m 50, and the joint pain I have is all from past dislocations. Most of them where I was told I ‘couldn’t have dislocated it and relocated it myself’, so my pain was dismissed. As an adult I learned that yes, I did dislocate them, it just doesn’t hurt as much. The joint damage is still there though, and having no treatment meant long term damage.
I sat like that as a kid, and i still can at 41. When i was a Marine i got the best physical fitness score of my company and smoked cigarettes. When i was in boot camp ,our platoon was getting punished as a group and they made us sit in the W position as a punishment.....best punishment ever, that cement really cools the taint down.
My drill sergeant yelled at me to "SIT NORMAL!" because apparently a bunch of my platoon was staring or something. I hate sitting cross legged though, my feet fall asleep.
I still can sit like a W at close to 60. But I try not to because I already needed an artificial hip joint due to unrecognized childhood hip dysplasia.
How can the most fit person be a smoker?!
@TheRealBatabii for a perfect physical fitness test, i had to do 20 pullups, 100 cruches before a min, and run 3 miles with 18 minutes or less for perfect. I never got a perfect score total because i always ran at 18:30. Im sure if i didn't smoke, I'd get perfect, not just the best in the company of 130 men. But to answer ur questions, i think it was genetic.
@@eternalspring1034 My school made me do sit ups and pushups when I w sat as a way to build the core to "fix" any problems which I never had. They gave me an extra gym class to do muscle building from kindergarten to third grade. When the state started to test sit ups and pushups counts per minute in the school, I beat all of the kids. Perhaps they did that to you too? Little Spartan warriors.
My mom was told not to let me sit that way, I'd heard that the research no longer supported that, and our family doctor agreed, but we had to take my eldest to a pediatrician (she's fine, it was precautionary), and the pediatrician told us to not have her sit that way. I wonder if this is like all the fearmongering about less-ergonomic baby carriers, where the baby's legs just hang down (instead of having to go out to the side) causing hip dysplasia - my family doctor told me it was only a concern if the kids were already at risk (and we'd know if they were). And because the pediatrician is less used to seeing healthy kids, she is much more conservative about what practices are ok.
It never affected me to sit this way. It won't negatively affect your daughter,
She may not be aware that it's no longer recommended. When I studied podopediatrics about a decade ago they taught us to encourage parents to gently encourage their kids not to sit that way...
@@lichensinspace5022 Given the timeline she would have been taught that, yes. Doesn't explain why my family doctor said not worry. Maybe he just hadn't been taught about it at all and so assumed it wasn't a big deal.
I'm convinced half the things pediatricians say are about managing parents as much as healthcare for children. It wouldn't surprise me that the pediatrician said to herself, "if it bothers you, don't let her sit that way," and encouraged you to make her sit differently.
well remember decades ago that they used to force left handed kids to write with their right hand...
Here's the real problem with it as I see it... my daughter's delayed diagnosis. In fact, given how recently the data on EDS has come to light, most people with it (who are currently adults) weren't diagnosed until adulthood. So here's what happened with her.
She was born with hip dysplasia, which I understand should have been treated immediately. However, she was also born and Friendly Hills Medical Center in La Habra, CA. That hospital no longer exists. They had been bought out and were in the process of shutting down, but because medicine is business and business=greed, they kept denying it. The staff could just smell it, though, and were jumping ship right and left, and telling their peers not to apply.
So here's where lil Charly comes in... or rather, out... into an understaffed hospital that barely managed basic maternity/OB care much less being competent to notice an infant with a physical issue. As far as we knew, all newborns were as flexible as she was. They are pretty floppy. She had her hands completely open in her newborn photo. Fingers spread, hands flat. Seriously, I didn't think newborns did that and didn't know enough to ask, not that they'd have bothered to delve. I could barely get them to bring me painkiller.
She cried almost non-stop for her first three months of life, it seemed like. I still wonder what she might have been going through that no one could understand. So later, when she was a preschooler, my mom came to visit and noticed her pigeon-toed stance and gimpy-looking run and suggested that might not be strictly right. So I asked Charly's pediatrician... he just looked at her and asked if she liked to sit in a W position. Well, of course she did. He didn't say anything else about it. Dude had quite the God complex anyway and I can only assume that in his opinion, the rest was because of the sitting and she'd outgrow it and he didn't have to waste any time saying so.
I think you know she didn't. In fact, as time went on, she developed stomach problems. We thought it was school stress. She went through a doozy of a puberty and ended up needing a breast reduction at 18 because of back pain from the weight of her chest. The same stupid pediatrician dismissed the back pain as bad posture earlier in her teens and finally got fired (by us) after referring us to a smirking idiot of an orthopedist. He recognized she was hypermobile but just seemed to think it was neat and fun, and sent her to a physical therapist who was just as useless as the rest. She said her exercises hurt, he said they weren't supposed to, she asked what could be causing it, he said it could be a lot of things. He never bothered to offer us a list.
She finally figured it out on her own through the magic of the internet. Then the struggle began to find a doctor who knew anything because most knew JACK SQUAT about it. Fortunately they have a site with that information. She can't go to urgent care for it because they don't understand it and treat the issues wrong. She has medication just to be able to digest food normally and even then it's not a guarantee. She'll puke for no discernible reason once in a while. Sometimes her body chooses another way to clear itself out... ugh. She has random pain, and always hurts somewhere. She can displace bones with her own muscles. She can put her foot behind her head and pull her thumb to her arm (though she has been advised not to do the foot thing). She has physical therapy to put her bones back where they belong. They don't come all the way out, just enough to make her miserable.
Sorry, got long...
Tl;dr - Despite the light and bemused tone of this video and the advice not to worry, the consequence of the "no worries, they'll grow out of it" mentality is that the modern, hands off doctors who know nothing about EDS can overlook a condition... sometimes even something that should have been treated at birth. If something seems off, do your research. Ask the doctor but don't just take their word for it. They don't know as much as they act like they do, and a lot are far more absorbed in finding a quick answer than the right one.
I had to travel to the Mayo clinic for my diagnosis at age 20 when I'd had problems that were dismissed for over 10 years.
I hope your daughter is doing okay as can be today and that whatever craziness is going on (there's always something) will calm down soon.
My mom fought for me too and I wouldn't be here without her. She and my sister have eds, also, but mom didn't get her diagnosis until recently because her joints became arthritic quickly.
It's scary and people should be aware because some problems can be prevented when we have answers. I'm glad y'all found someone who. Would help enough to get some answers.
I have yet to hear of anyone at all who has EDS who hasn't had to fight doctors tooth and nail even for a diagnosis. I've been hoping it would gain awareness in the medical industry.
I was born with hip dysplasia. They had me wear this brace that held my legs in position for the joint to finish developing.
I still think it’s the root cause, or part of why I have other issues, especially with my legs. Tight hamstrings, turned in knees, flat feet and bunions.
This is why in my country hip ultrasound is obligatory (and free) for all newborns. We haven't had a case slip through the cracks in 70 years. And the children are not given braces, the hips are corrected in a far more uninvasive way.
I got diagnosed not too long ago with aEDS, and I've found compressive gear can help a lot with slippy joints. I use arthritis gloves to keep my hands together, a spine brace for my spine and ribs, and because my hips dislocate so easily, compressive shorts have been my best friend recently. I've also found some success in muscle tape, especially for my shoulders, as it gives the larger joints a little more muscle based support, too. I have no clue how bad anyone's case is, and I am not a doctor by any means, I have just found they help for me.
Side tangent, I hate that the only tip I got given by doctors was that, since there isn't a great treatment (and no cure), it is all just a matter of finding ways to cope with the issues.
I am so glad you are taking this on. At high school I was gravely strictly warned to stop doing backbends -- it was utter nonsense and now I know yoga "wheel pose" is an important part of healthy aging and mobility for me, I wish I'd never stopped! Love your intelligent treatment of the topic.
My daughter used to sit like that and freaked out my husband 😂 I told him to calm down and she outgrew it. And also became quite a good gymnast 😂
28 years old and I can still sit like this. No inturned toes. 😊
I'm 33, and my knees hurt just thinking of trying to sit like that.
I just tried it and can't sit like that. It hurts everywhere. But each their own preferences 😄
I’m 36 years old and I still sit in the “W position” regularly
43 and same
@@slwrabbits 56 same, carry on lol
I'm 20 and I was always sitting like that as a child and often catch myself doing so again so having this video randomly pop up in my recommended had me clicking on it immediately lol
oh my god I just realized I was literally w-sitting while writing my first reply, wtf
ditto. It just feels good sometimes. Usually I'm cross legged but that w sitting feels good to do.
I don't know if I'm hypermobile, but I sat that way through adolescence. The reason I did this is because I absolutely could not sit on the floor in the "normal" cross-legged position. If I cross my ankles in front of me while seated on the floor, I cannot lower my knees below the level of my collarbones without painful stresses in my hip joints & knees.
I think if you were hypermobile you'd probably also have bigger range of motion in the other direction. Our hip sockets can be more biased towards inward or outward rotation, and it sounds like yours are more prone to inward rotation.
Stretching can help to increase your range of motion if that lack of external rotation is an issue, but if it doesn't restrict you in your everyday life there's nothing to worry about :)
Thanks to scishow for talking about this! As someone who has hsd, most people either think it’s cool, or have never heard of it. I’m currently on crutches most of the time, and have been forced to look into wheelchairs. I’m currently only in my early twenties, and will be lucky if I can go back to work. I used to sit like this, along with several other signs that could have prevented me from doing so much damage if they had been flagged sooner. Awareness of illnesses like these is so important, and is growing, but we have a long ways to go! (If anyone has questions, I’m down to try to answer)
I’m glad this addressed Ehlers-Danlos. I liked sitting like this as a kid, because it was comfortable, because (as I now know) I’ve got hEDS.
Also the floor of the big activity room at my elementary school was smooth enough that I could scoot across the room like a weird frog without ever needing to lift a single buttock lol
Thank you for this! I've been shamed for lots of random posture related stuff all my life (including "W sitting"), yet every time I've tried to "correct" my posture, it's only resulted in pain & discomfort no matter how long I pushed myself to keep it up. I've been learning more about hypermobility & I think I probably have a mild form of it. On the one hand, it's a relief that my "posture issues" aren't a personal failing of mine after all... and on the other hand, it's sad to think about all the "being watched" anxiety I now deal with as a result of the constant shaming/correction. (I don't know if I can adequately explain how awful it feels to feel like you're doing something "wrong" every time you get into a comfortable resting position 😞 It feels similar to insomnia... unable to truly rest & recharge.) I'm getting a bit sick of seeing studies about the physical impact of "W sitting" that take absolutely 0 consideration of the negative mental health impact of encouraging "body monitoring." IMO it wasn't worth it for me... I'm 30, my legs are still wonky, I still W-sit, all I got from the "W sitting interventions" was an anxiety disorder. 🙄
The W-sitting thing is super common in Japan. A lot of people seem to have in-turned toes in Japan as well, especially among girls.
I was hoping you'd also touch on the traditional Japanese sitting style called "seiza"--which directly translates to "correct sitting." Even though it's more of a "V" style, it is rather close to the "W."
Me too. It always makes my feet numb after like 6 minutes.
I’m Japanese and have EDS & the body mechanics of seiza are quite different than W-sitting, in proper seiza you aren’t pushing your knee/ankle/hip joints past their normal limits & I’d be scolded for it when I slipped into W-sitting.
There are tricks to keep your legs from losing sensation during seiza too. I haven’t done seiza in a while though since I’m partially paralyzed.
Yeah I see W sitting at much later ages here in Japan because seiza is so common. Also pigeon toes are common, always wondered if those were related
Oh. I tend to sit like that. It's comfy because it stretches out the quads. It's also a position that hurts my knees the least. Cross legged always makes my knees feel off for a few minutes after standing. Sitting legs out just makes my butt fall asleep. W sitting isn't much better for me than crosslegged. I like that it's a position that I can get into and out of quickly as well. You can just press your toes into the ground and roll back onto your heels to get up.
TIL my most frequent way of sitting, on the floor or in a chair, is called seiza!
No way, I never hear people talk about this! I was born with increased femoral anteversion so my femur bones are inwardly rotated. As a child this caused me to W-sit and have severe pigeon toes. I also have patellar maltraction. I devloped chronic pain in my mid 20s in my hips, legs, and knees. Ive never met another adult who also has femoral anteversion like me. While this condition does cause me pain, turning one of my feet all the way inwards has always been my party trick
Finally a video about EDS!! I'm diagnosed with it and have been wanting y'all to talk about it for ages! also, i'm 26 ,and still sit W style.
I have Ehlers Danlos Syndrome. I've gone from EDS Type III to hypermobility EDS to now the spectrum thing. Type III is hard to pin down because so many of us have varying symptoms and varying degrees of symptoms. For example, my mother would dislocate her shoulders just pushing down to stand. She was extremely floppy, had friable skin, all that. For myself, however, my muscles are tight and near constant spasms trying to hold my joints together. But we also had totally different childhoods. She group up "in town" while I grew up on a farm. I was in good physical shape until I went to college. Mom was never in shape. My bet is she sat in that W position all the time, probably even as a teen and older. While I never did.
I have EDS\hypermobility and it sucks! For me the chronic pain, weakness and I’m, “easily damaged” are the worst.
I’ve got it too. But I have the cEDS version. PoTs , gastroparesis, J tube fed. Mcas, the lot. It’s awful. Gentle zebra hugs xxx
I sat like this as a kid and an adult. I've only recently found out I have HSD about a year ago, and this style of sitting is absolutely discouraged for hEDS/HSD patients. And yeah I've experienced a lot of the symptoms (fatigue, chronic joint pain, subluxation, super painful flat foot) listed plus some more related to fainting (dysautonomia) because connective tissue exists throughout the body (not just in muscles and joints).
One thing I wish to clarify though is that hypermobility is part of other disorders too including other heritable connective tissue disorders like Marfan's Syndrome and Stickler Syndrome. However, these other disorders see more cardiovascular conditions.
I have to constantly remind myself: “ Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should”. I have hyper mobile joints, and tend to occupy space like a toddler, & find myself sometimes stuck. It’s heinous.
Wow. I'm hypermobile and I never knew half of this. I was always told I was double jointed and while I knew I didn't actually have 'double joints', I never thought much about it. This was, like all of your videos, very informative. Thank you for doing what you do.
Hi I've been watching for 10 years, across my own diagnosis and my son's diagnosis with hEDS. My kiddo was in physical therapy from the time he started walking, because his in-turned toes made him trip and fall over his own feet. He needed braces and now his feet are straighter. If I have had the benefit of these early interventions I might not have had to have three surgeries on my ankle and foot.
Anyway, it's super cool to see the channel mention EDS and our difficulties by name. thank you for everything you do!
I was W-sitting my entire childhood well into teens, occasionally even in adulthood. I wouldn't say it's too harmful. One possible effect on me is I can't sit cross-legged (my legs are just unable to bend that way), but I feel it's more likely that I had already been born with the inward rotation that makes it easier to sit in one way than the other, and W-sitting may just have reinforced it. A kid would often need space in front of them while sitting to put toys in, and since it's uncomfortable for me to sit cross-legged, W-sitting was really the most natural other option to fold my legs some way. I do also have flat feet that are prone to hurt when walking long distances, which I didn't know could be related to this before watching this video.
I still sit like this, and I'm 44. Although now that I am olden, my knees get angry if I hold it for too long, which is annoying, because otherwise it's always been the most comfortable position to sit.
I still sit like this in my 20s, even in chairs and such. It was news to me that it could be considered "bad", as I had never heard that growing up. Very interesting topic!
As a PT student, I can tell you we have been told W-sitting is bad for adults. In kids, it can be more normal at some ages. Some kids may prefer to W-sit due to underlying problems. If that's the case address the underlying problems. We don't tend to focus on avoiding W-sitting itself unless stretching stretch those muscles and ligaments are bad for their particular body mechanics.
In OT school we learn this is often indicative of weak core strength so we discourage it because proximal stability leads to distal mobility!
Wow that's interesting! I used to sit like this as a child, and even now, at 25 I still enjoy this position. I have bowed legs and always wondered if it's because of W-sitting in childhood. I've never heard about the core stability being associated but it makes so much sense. It is a very comfortable position from that perspective and I do struggle with weak core!
As a Behavior Analyst, I was taught nothing about it except being told by OTs and PTs. But, anecdotally, if I see a kid who has reached 4/5 and still prefers to sit like this, I will bring it up to the teacher and tell to get that kid an OT eval. I’ve never been wrong about the child having poor motor skills or qualifying for services.
I can still sit in the W style but it starts to hurt after about 5 minutes. I am in my 40s.
@@Novusod I have always sat like that, I can now, even at 62, although I do not sit on the ground as much as I did as a kid. I never had mobility issues growing up, was a sprinter in high school. Never had flat feet, inward toes etc. I can walk or bike ride several miles a day with no pain in my legs, hips or feet. Maybe the effect will show up in my 70s or 80s, or not at all.
Thank you for bringing up hypermobility, and eds ....these conditions need more awareness and I'm sure that your mention of them will make a difference in some people's lives.
Thanks SciShow for talking about hEDS / HSD! I have been wondering about the bio-evolutionary reasons for sitting with crossed legs, which other quadropeds do.
Me too! cEDS!
Me too!
HEDS
I also have MCAS, POTS, Autism, COPD, and GERD.
They are all common comorbidities for people who have EDS. Autoimmune diseases are also a common comorbidity.
People who have Hypermobility what other comorbidities do you have? For Science 🧪
Well if you have no chairs, sitting cross legged on the ground is the most stable way to sit. I suspect people have been sitting cross legged for at least a million years or more.
@@Napstabloookie the same. I’m also jej fed and have a Hickman. I also have a mitrofanoff and waiting to get my hip dysplasia fixed. To say I screamed when I saw this is an understatement! Got so excited.
@@lenabreijer1311 sitting in the W position can be bad for people with EDS/HSD/Marfans. I can’t sit the other way
Being hypermobile is very common, having a genetic hypermobility disorder is much less so, here's some signs.
I have a hypermobility spectrum disorder. My symptoms include autonomic dysfunction, chronic fatigue, ugly scarring, flat feet, difficulty walking, frequent joint dis/sublocations, easy bruising, chronic pain, bad vision, and even autoimmune problems! My most recent problem is instability in my cranio-cervical area. This could potentially become a life-threatening issue. I am a partial wheelchair user.
Just being flexible does NOT mean you have an HSD and is generally not a cause for concern. If you experience a lot of the things I listed above aside from joint hypermobility, do consult a Dr! It is also incredibly comorbid to Autism and ADHD.
I've been wondering for a while about coincidence of hEDS / HSD with Autism and ADHD. I'm only just hearing that there is research connecting these. Also interested to hear from another hEDS/HSDer with visual impairment - have come across plenty of folks with hearing loss, but very few with VI. I think for me it improved my proprioception, meaning that I didn't start really injuring myself until later in life. I use a wheelchair now most of the time. But sitting in a certain position as a child can't alter your genes!
@coleenocasturme well, the eyeball is overwhelmingly made up of collagen, so VI is actuallyreallycommon! Near-sightedness and trouble focusing the eyes is incredibly common. My glasses can correct my near-sightedness, but they don't help with focusing. That said, there's also rarer cases of the retina detaching in HSD's which, you know, probably isn't very good for your vision!
(I never got my ears checked since I was 7-ish, but they're probably not the greatest either haha)
I envy those flexible people with the mutation so much... I'm hypermobile, sure, but I have never been able to do anything cool like the splits haha
Thank you for making it clear.
I've had a phase where I was convinced I might have EDS, because I'm rather flexible, have soft , translucent and stretchy skin that is kinda prone to bruising. But I've never dislocated anything in my life and no issues with the soft tissues inside.
The only thing that sometimes makes me wonder is the fact I also have Marfan-like arms and I've had to have surgery as a teen because of unusually severe spondylolisthesis noone knows the cause of. But I'm inclined to think it's more coincidental than anything else.
@theanswerisowl dislocations are actually not necessary for an EDS diagnosis! If you're worried and have pain or fatigue, you might just want to run it by your dr! You could also have HSD, basically EDS-unclassified due absence of certain symptoms. If you're worried, run it down!
I suffer with absolutely all of these save for joint dislocation (instead I have constant pinched nerves and precordial catch)
I didn't know this existed until now, and I've been trying to find out what's wrong with me for the past 5 years with no luck
I'm excited to have at least one more lead to look into now!
My favorite channel made a video about my thing!! I'm ecstatic! And it comes at a time when I'm experiencing a major uptick in chronic pain due to my hypermobility issues. Thank you for brightening my day and increasing awareness!
I was diagnosed with hEDS a month ago. Seeing it talked about on a channel of this size is kinda cool. There is so much that goes with the diagnosis, way more than could be covered in such a short video but it’s nice to see it getting talked about
I sat like this my whole life. I am one if the least flexible people out there. Didnt do anything to me. I sit with my feet flat and pointing out though, so my feet would rather rotate to point my toes outwards instead of inwards. Helped me get easy stand ups when wrestling.
Shortly after finishing college, we went to visit my grandmother. We were in her living room when she exclaimed "oh my God, she sits like Ignacio!"
I was relaxed enough that I'd been sitting on my ankle (butt on chair, right leg in normal sit-on-chair position, left ankle tucked under right thigh). Turns out that was also the most comfortable position for my grandfather, who died when I was 3; I only know his face from pictures, I can't remember him at all. So if and when I sit weird - it's inherited and anybody who has a complaint can file it with my foreparents.
Thank you SO MUCH for touching on Ehlers-Danlos! My 3 year old was diagnosed with it this year and it's sad how few people even know what it is, let alone are familiar with it.
As soon as this intro started, I knew this was the SciShow episode I've been waiting for - because I have hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos syndrome! 💖As a hypermobile kid, I was warned against doing many things like this, because people told me "it'll cause damage!", when in reality plenty of those things made life in my hypermobile body just... more comfortable. I've been in pain since I was a kid, but my poor internal proprioception, or interoception, caused by my hEDS meant I wasn't really consciously aware that that's what was going on (I was just aware of what I called "a 'no' feeling"). If I'd understood I was just trying to make myself more comfortable, I wouldn't have resisted W-sits, cracking my joints, and more!
I'm 36, still perfectly fine to sit or even lay down this way. Often do so casually while watching youtube lol. Never heard there was something wrong with that, and no clue if I have any diagnose-fitting level of hypermobility. Though as a kid I used to be able to bend my fingers in pretty unnatural ways that often creeped out everyone around me. Even now my fingers curl up upwards noticeably if I just spread them, no force required, or up to 90 degree upwards with a bit of help from other hand. By the way, there's no problems with my feet, at least not from what was listed in the video. My shoulder joints hurt sometimes though, but no hardcore stuff like full scale dislocation for no good reason.
As a person with hypermobile Ehler Danlos Syndrome, I can totally confirm, that position is actually not causing the Hypermobility. It's just plain comfortable, because it's already easier to sit that way.
I was an athlete and out sprinted busses.
It's not just about proprioception. It's about the type and amount of collagen produced.
The affected collagen is the building block of most things in the body and so the faulty collagen in all the connective tissues is making those unstable.
They problem with proprioception occurs, because Hypermobility disorders occur disproportionately often in autistic people.
EDS has an 1000 times higher prevalence in autistic people in relation to neurotypical people.
Autistic people are prone to SPD or Sensory Processing Disorder, including all senses.
Some are more off than others.
I am hyper sensitive to:
Sound
Light and sight
Taste
But am hyposensetive to:
Proprioception
Temperature
Touch
Also yes, I at this point have joint pain, fatigue, chronic pain, sleep disorders, daily (sub)luxtactions and have to get physical therapy twice a week.
You’re right about there being a big overlap with EDS/ASD and the related sensory issues, but proprioception difficulties in EDS/HSD can occur independently of autism as the faulty connective tissue means that the signals our stretch receptors receive and feed back to the brain are altered, giving us a less accurate picture of where our body is in space. This is in comparison to the sensory processing issues in autism which are generally more neurological due to structural/networking differences in the brain rather than due to mechanical differences in connective tissue (or both, if you have both autism and HSD/EDS etc)
I wish there were doctors available near me to assess me for all these disorders. I've known for years that I have sensory processing disorder. It's just obvious to me. And I my autisticness is obvious to me, too. I'm also diagnosed (years ago) as hypermobil but no one assessed me for EDS, which I would be shocked if I don't have.
Another odd thing is that my doctors can see that I bruise easily but some of my bruises are because I accidentally hit my arms and hands and elbows on whatever is around. I just don't seem to get that my body can't simply pass through stuff. So parts of me hit whatever is around as I move. (Sometimes. Not every moment, which would almost be comical.) I suspect that tendency falls somewhere within these disorders too.
Hey, are you me? lol
Sameeeee
Also a lot of overlap with trans people. Neurodivergency, hypermobility, and gender dysphoria are weirdly correlated, not to the point where it's necessarily predictive but definitely more common than it should be.
Thanks for covering this! I definitely worried, but knew there wasn’t definitive research to worry too much.
I’m hypermobile EDS. One of my kids W- sat a lot of a long time. He said it hurt to sit in the cross-cross style. He’s a teen now and can contort in all kinds of ways he shouldn’t be able to, but he’s been in physical therapy since 4th grade to work on his strength and protect his joints.
I haven't seen this host before but uh definitely keep bringing him back!
I found even sitting cross-legged as a child uncomfortable as it offered little back support, forcing me to lean back with my arms outstretched & palms on the floor.
However, back in the 1960s when W-sitting was totally discouraged, my knees & ankles would start hurting after a while if I did try sitting like that! Maybe it has something to do a child's weight, as I've noticed that children who are either thin (like I was) or very chubby, tend not to W-sit?
you lean forwards
@@appa609 That was just as uncomfortable, only other way I could sit was drawing my knees up, then holding them with my arms!
I believe this is true. I grew up with a kid that sat like that, I thought it was so strange and then when we jumped on the trampoline his legs would buckle all the time and he would land in the "W" position as well.
I'm 30 and never realised it was weird until it started to get pointed out to me in my 20s. Favourite description has been "you sit like a spatchcocked chicken" 😂
Thank you! I worked at a preschool as an aide and the teachers seemed so caught up in this and a few other random normal childhood behaviors. That all cemented my feelings about the public school system being nothing but a training ground for factories and prisons.
I have hEDS. this type of sitting created a torsion of my femurs. This was part of the cause for frequent medial dislocations of my right patella. I would have had issues with dislocations of the knee caps anyway but most dislocations are lateral as opposed to medial. But this is still the least of my issues.
Hope you have a happy fulfiled life during this hardship🙏🏾.
I sat like this as a child, and all three of my children have sat like this up to a certain age. I have connective tissue issues, but I'm pretty sure the w-sit did NOT have anything to do with my ridiculously stretchy skin LOL
My middle kid, however, does have some issues with turned in toes. Wears through shoes at warp speed. We finally got some insoles from the podiatrist, they've made a world of difference.
So, yeah, I think this is definitely a case of "correlation does not equal causation".
I have been “W” sitting for well over twenty years, and have gotten SO many comments on it. This is the best representation in media I could ever hope to have.
I swear I will sit in any position except straight while in a chair. Legs curled, criss-cross, crossed legs, fully upside down...
I sat this way as a child. It was not caused by hypermobility, but a different genetic issue. I have acetabular bony overgrowth, causing pincer-type impingement of the hip joint. Basically, it is the opposite of hip dysplasia - where my pelvis grips my femur too tightly. Sitting "normal" has always been painful.
It's odd that as I age, I learn more about hypermobility. I never realized it was weird, I just knew that I was "flexible." And I am. I am also pigeon-toed (severely so in one leg), and I have partially fused vertebrae and scoliosis in two places in my back. However, I don't generally feel pain, so these aren't often debilitating.
I do, however, sit and sleep in odd positions. I watched this essentially in child pose on the ground with my feet at crossed beneath me at a right angle. And as I'm typing this, I'm sitting in the W pose to see if it still feels comfortable, and yeah. It does. I remember my friends making me sit like this in high school to show off and not understanding why it was so weird...
Some weird things I've learned are not normal over time:
-Being able to independently fold my pinky to my palm without bending my ring finger or any other digit
-Being able to wave with my pinky toes
-Nearly being able to put my elbows on the ground while standing with knees straight
-Being able to touch every single inch of my back with just one hand
-Being able to fold my thumb to my wrist
-Sleeping with my arm wrapped around my knee, which is tucked up to my chin
-Sleeping 'criss-cross,' bent in half, with my elbows tucked all the way into my groin and my face buried in my palms
-Being able to do a spiral on ice with my foot to shoulder height my first try (minus the face-planted attempt from catching the toe pick lol)
-Walking pigeon-toed to the extent that my shoes wear out on the top-inside portion of the shoe, and my heels (when I wear them) warping out
-Having a fantastic outside edge and a shaky inside edge on ice
-Having one pant leg that constantly turns so the side seam is at the front of my leg no matter what pair of pants or leggings I'm wearing, but just on the left leg (the one with the most severely turned hip)
-Being able to make my thumb and pinky a completely straight line (great for piano)
-Hooking the wings of my shoulder blades over the high back of a chair without lifting my arms
Now I'm wondering if my severe TMJD doesn't hurt because of lowered nerve signals.... I had a dentist refuse to work on me because it clicked so strongly, but it rarely ever hurts...
I've also heard hypermobility is seen in a higher prevalence in people with ADHD, which I was diagnosed with as an adult. I wonder what the connection is between these things...?
Love the info. But love your voice, Reid. 💜
I have never known a single child in my life that would sit still long enough for any position to be concerning
This video is very eye opening. I always sat in this W form, even into adulthood. I was always yelled at to stop it but it was just more comfortable for me. I had pigeon toes and would trip and fall constantly as a kid but that solved itself. To this day as an adult I still have flat feet and I do have hypermobility in several parts of my body. Some fingers and sometimes I can feel my rib pop out. Never thought it could be related.
My granddaughter has legs that never turned out properly as a baby - it hurts her to sit on the floor, currently, in any other position. Her mother is an Elhers-Danlos patient.
Living in Japan for many years, that’s how most children and some adults sit. My daughter used to sit like this in school
I used to sit like this a lot as a kid, but would be corrected by teachers to sit “criss cross apple sauce”. However, the standard crisscross way of sitting feels like it puts pressure on the outside knob of the ankle (the lateral malleolus ?). So, combined with a bit of hyper mobility, the most comfy sitting position for me is usually half lotus sitting.
Sitting criss cross absolutely KILLS my inner thighs and hips
I was born with hip dysplasia. My legs rotated inwards and as a result, I had to wear little booties with a bar across to try and correct this issue. Throughout my childhood, I was unable to sit cross-legged and adopted a more exaggerated W sit, actually more like a kind of "T" sit where my knees actually touched and my feet splayed out. Teachers were always trying to correct this posture telling me I was ruining my knees. Like the video mentioned, my body began to right itself through growth and development but I still have hyper mobility due to a malformation of my acetabular joints. I was fortunate that my condition didn't deter me from physical activity, on the contrary, it was my athleticism that allowed me to overcome my abnormality. I became a very competitive athlete and it's thanks to my conditioning, my lax joints were strengthened. I've been told I'll likely need a bilateral hip replacement far earlier in my life than most (as my mother did) but so long as I maintain an active lifestyle, I should be able to recover well.
I grew up setting like this, i can tell you that my knees don't look normal, they're sideways 😬
but everything else seems to be fine with me.
I'm a 64 yr old woman who still sits like this! Mom and teachers tried to stop me, but I was a stubborn kid. I'm much more agile and healthy than my peers. I can do a full Asian Squat and stand from a sitting position on the floor with no hands. No knee, hip or back problems. I do have flat feet (always have) but that's never been a problem, either.
I sat like this as a kid too, but 'grew' out of it somewhere around puberty. For what it's worth, my legs are well-alighned and the only knee problems I've had are occasional pain from moderate wear of the cartilage behind the patellas from overuse. I do have shallow shoulder sockets (labrum), which resulted in bilateral labral tears, one of which required surgery, but again, without the heavy overuse and abuse along with bad posture I'd have never known it, and the rest of my joints are normal. To this day I include a W stretch in my routine; it freaks people out, but feels wonderful and seems to help that knee pain after a hike.
I am “double jointed” and i had an issue once where something in my hip would get dislocated randomly. It was sometimes very painful and prevented me from walking. We still dont know what even after an xray and mri. Exercise does help though and i havent had it happen in awhile thankfully
For me as a kid, my legs weren't flexible enough to be comfortable sitting cross legged.
I would try other positions like this to just be more comfortable.
honestly sitting cross-legged hurts anyway unless you're sitting on a soft surface like a bed or soft chair, even as an adult
If you increase your flexibility in your hip flexors, or hip joints, then sitting cross legged is much easier.
How much padding, or fat, your butt has will determine how comfortable it will be.
This feels like the appropriate time to break out the old “correlation is not causation” chestnut
Always enjoy Reids hosting. Love SciShow :)
Glad to hear you talk about hEDS and HSD! It can be often be a challenge to live with, but fun at parties to pop out a joint, and even more fun to prank people into dislocating a finger and pretending it hurt.
I took ballet lessons for many years, so I can still sit in this position. It’s not usually my go to, but if I’m sitting in the same spot for a long time, I’ll eventually get there.
Great video! 🎉
Thank you SO much for talking about us.
Huh, strange. I somehow missed this entire thing. I never heard of W sitting before, but I always see it in anime as how characters (typically girls in skirts) tend to sit. I always thought it looked weird and uncomfortable. I never knew it was this big thing that over half of kids end up naturally doing, let alone that it was associated with increased risk of various chronic pain issues.
That pose actually called “Seiza” and you don’t splay out your feet like that and you actually have your legs completely underneath you and your toes crossed
It is actually considered the proper way to sit in Japan
I think it might have something to do with not accidentally flashing anyone when you stand up from sitting on the ground while wearing a kimono
Friendly PSA: People with one of the Ehlers-Danlos may also be susceptible to strokes and aneurysms because their stretchy tissues means weakened veins and arteries. If you have a family history of strokes, aneurysms, hypermobility and even migraines, maybe look into this and don't push yourself too hard.
Another friendly PSA: If you're naturally extra stretchy you might benefit more from resisted stretching to strengthen your ligaments instead of just lengthing them! It can lower your chances of joint injury.
My legs hurt just watching this video. There's no way I could sit like that, as a kid or adult.
I was diagnosed with hypermobile EDS in early 2013 (although it was still called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome type 3 at that point). Back then, it was still a rare disorder that no one had ever heard of. I was just the 2nd EDS patient they’d ever seen at my pediatrician’s office. My amazing pediatrician did a fantastic job managing my care despite the circumstances, but nobody- not even the geneticists- really knew what to do with me.
I’m glad the general public is becoming more aware of Ehlers-Danlos syndrome (& other connective tissue disorders) and hypermobility spectrum disorders in general. I love seeing this new research being done too!
It’s kinda surreal to see how much EDS has changed since I was diagnosed just 10 years ago. Some changes have been good, and others… not so great. But the increase in research and awareness is definitely a step in the right direction, and I hope we’ll eventually have some treatment guidelines that are actually helpful in the future.
A couple more comments re: EDS
The genetics department was basically useless after I got diagnosed. Nowadays, most genetics clinics won’t even touch hEDS patients. Even if you were previously diagnosed by them, they won’t give you any advice. They’ll tell you to talk to your primary care provider, but complex genetic disorders are well outside a PCP’s scope of practice. That’s what a geneticist is supposed to do!
My pediatrician got put into an impossible position: what can you do for a teenage patient with chronic pain because of their genetic disorder? How do you manage this patient when genetics won’t help you?
Because EDS can cause so many issues in so many different organ systems, patients inevitably end up seeing multiple different specialists, and each specialist manages one segment of the EDS puzzle. No specialist can even lead the overall management (although my PCP tries her best), so the patient ends up shouldering that burden, and it’s not easy.
At this point, I have my PCP, plus cardiology, orthopedics, podiatry, GI, OT, PT, ENT, optometry. Each specialist manages or deals with some aspect of my hEDS diagnosis. Even the salespeople at the specialty runners’ shoe store I go to manage part of my EDS!
As if EDS wasn’t enough on its own, I also ended up with several unrelated issues: narcolepsy, ADHD, hypothyroidism, reactive hypoglycemia, inappropriate sinus tachycardia (a heart arrhythmia), atopic triad (asthma, allergies, eczema), recurrent sinusitis, recurrent iron deficiency anemia (requiring iron infusions), and an undiagnosed blood disorder.
That means even more specialists: neurology/sleep medicine, hematology, allergy specialists (and allergy shots), dermatology, and psychiatry + a therapist. And more issues that cardiology and ENT have to deal with. Luckily, my PCP manages the issues she can handle (hypothyroidism, asthma, GERD, hypoglycemia) to make my life a little easier, and I love her for that.
Oh my god, I used to sit this way as a kid! I can remember one time one of my teachers asked me to demonstrate sitting that way to the rest of my class, as an intro into telling them all how it was the wrong way to sit and how I was probably going to end up with wrecked joints and arthritis when I was an adult (so yeah, that was fun...!) I've always found sitting cross-legged uncomfortable, which may have been why I started sitting that way in the first place, and that got worse once I was an adult, but at the same time I also found it was getting more difficult to sit in the W position as well. (Although, In hindsight, I think now it was just because I was quite overweight and unfit in my early adulthood.) I have always had a strange issue wth my hipbones, where it feels like sometimes one 'drops out of place' while I'm walking, (hurts like heck!) and I have to kind of swing it around a bit to make it 'click back into alignment' again, but other than that I don't really have any signs of hypermobility, except maaaybe being able to pull-bend my fingers backwards quite far. Good to know I'm at least slightly less weird than I thought I was!
I hate body shaming douches like that who compare people's bodies to children, especially when it's ANOTHER CHILD they're using as an example of who you don't want to be. It's messed up, and it's almost always people who were bullied for their bodies and constantly rightfully admonish people who bully based on bodies... yet they bully people themselves, for their bodies. My mom was like this. Every time she saw teeth she didn't like on TV she'd use them as an example of who you don't want to be, as if being them is some horrible curse just because of how they look. They were almost never even unhealthy teeth, just aesthetically unpleasing. Bullying a kid in front of the class for sitting wrong and claiming their joints will be so terribly messed up is just... ugh.
I'm diagnosed as hypermobil and seeking assessment for EDS. But I never sat like that as a kid. Honestly, as an also ADHD kid, I think I more ran, climbed, and squirmed than sat as a kid. 😂 Though, when I had to sit I chose cross legged instead.
When I saw the title....I knew you'd mention Ehlers-Danlos...Thank you! I was able to sit like that until my late 50's, but also having RA has stiffened me up where I no longer can.
My knees hurt from watching this
hEDS #spoonie here ... EDS doesn't have a cure.
Yet... maybe some day they'll find one and we can be free
@@astralb.2647 I am 43 this September.
I am 98% sure, that in the next 37 years, they'll not break the code.
I'll hope, but I'm a pessimist...and unlikely to live past 65. 🤣
I can attest that “W” style sitting can affect ligaments in knees as I did that as a kid. I get bursitis flare ups in my right knee as because of its bow out alignment.
This is very interesting to know.
I love the new host. At least, I think he's new. If so, welcome to Scishow!
I got diagnosed with hypermobile Ehlers Danlos just last week! Perfect timing
How many of you sit on a chair with one ankle tucked under the other knee? I often sit this way, but I have only noticed one other person do it.
I do. I have EDS and a backward hip joint, and sitting with my legs crossed is significantly more comfortable than with my legs flat on the floor. If I can’t sit with my legs crossed totally, this is how I’ll sit
Me, you're not alone
I put the ankle on the other knee.
Comfortable and somewhat opens the hip for martial arts.
Anyone sitting while watching this right now?
Squatting on the toilet seat 😎
Me on the car seat
I’m so happy to see someone talking about EDS. I swear it’s so unknown and I love hearing people talking about us Zebra!!! Thank you so much!
that thumbnail HURTS my knees. I sit like that until my teens.
I was told that it was correlated with hip dysplasia. I never did find W-sitting that comfy, but I actually have/had hip dysplasia, but I was diagnosed as a teenager and eventually had to go through a really major reconstructive surgery on each side so I could walk and live my life in less pain. Is there any research about that? Hip dysplasia (the situation I was in) is also correlated with EDS and a lot of people who have had the rare surgery I had also have EDS, especially hEDS. I am not diagnosed with any type of EDS currently, but I've got other comorbid disorders and a lot of unexplained chronic pain so who knows. I wish I had access to papers and see if those people who said W-sitting=hip dysplasia were actually referencing real studies
As an early childhood educator I cringe at that position and have offered other sitting positions like mountain, mermaid, and chairs. I'm glad I'm seeing this and learning more about it.
You got a lot of it! The only thing is, that if you are genetically hypermobile, while W-sitting is comfortable at the time, it can cause more joint pain in the future. For kids with EDS/HSD, W-sitting is usually comfortable, whereas sitting in other positions is not, but as you get older and your joints naturally begin to stiffen up, continuing to sit this way can cause you further joint problems, such as pain and potential subluxations. I have EDS and I'm hypermobile, but it's important I do my best not to hyper-extend, because although I have the ability to do so and I've learnt to use my body differently, it's still not great for your joints. I have been told by my physio not to hyper-extend and to avoid "sitting like a pretzel" either.
I was forced to sit straight all through my childhood and my back has no curvature due to this, my spine doesn’t go S, more like I
I never heard the term W sitting, but my preferred sitting position was on my knees for most of my childhood. When my teachers would say "criss cross applesauce," I'd stick to kneeling with most of my weight on my calves which were under my thighs. Unfortunately, by late elementary school I was too heavy to do that without my legs and feet falling asleep. It was too late though- I had lost the flexibility to sit crosslegged like everyone else in my class because I'd never bothered trying. And I couldn't W sit either- my knees couldn't handle it. I'm 30 now and sitting on the floor has been painful ever since. Too bad I get asked to play games on the floor frequently by the kids I work with. So yeah, there is a wrong way to sit.
I've never heard of this concern. Regarding pigeon toes, I always thought that's a way kids walk and needs to be taught not to? My parents harped on me and my siblings to consciously walk with our feet straight or pointed outward. It worked, we have no issues with pigeon toes
Not so much, it's just something you will probably grow out of. It has to do with joint shape instead.
The tingling in my legs I get after drawing for a while cannot be a good sign
Looking great Hank!
What a peculiar “sit”uation.
They harped on my son for sitting like this for years, he sat like that from 2 to 4. He's now 10 and fine
I W sat growing up, had tremendous pain in my hips and back and legs after walking a bit as a young adult, turns out my femurs formed twisted & long story short I had to have my legs surgically broken & reconstructed with titanium rods.
Feel much better now!! But for the longest time growing up I was told nothing can be done & to do PT, but it’s a structural issue from childhood, not something that can be fixed with exercise.
Glad there’s some discussion about it now.
We love u hank we all r hopeing u get the help u need😊