No discussion of the 6.5 Swede? One of the greatest hunting rounds ever created. Low recoil and deadly. In Norway they kill polar bears with it. Very effective in Africa. A popular round for boar in Russia and Romania. Popular in Germany and France.
Yea but not here. That’s a double edged sword. If something was actually popular here that’s not from here like 9mm it’s already been covered a million times. If it’s not popular they aren’t going to do a full episode on it. Sure the 6.5x55 is great. But nobody cares.
@@docooo if I may. They are basically identical unless you get a chamber cut longer in the swed. Trying to put a heavier bullet in a swed takes away from powder capacity and brings it down to a creed. Apples to apples both shooting a 140 they are about dead even with stock chambers. Now if you push the lands on a swed a little bit then that’s a different story. But both stock with a heavy pill they are identical. Which is kinda funny. Only reason creed is anything you’ve heard of is because of cartridge overall length which matches a 308. If the creed was .05 longer you’d never even have heard about it. Ones longer and tapered that’s about it. But they are essentially identical as far as getting a xxx down range at xxxx.
6.5 prc is going to catch on more and more as supplies go back into stock, and is probably going to take over the middle grounds of long range. There’s going to be a 160 plus grain pill for 6.5 before long and it will be king without the pain of .30 cal. But a serious serious capable platform.
I'm thrilled to see someone bringing up the 6.5x55 Swede. I have hunted with it literally all my life. My father built a masterpiece 96 spotter for my older brother before I was born, but he turned out left handed, so it became mine when I was big enough to shoot it. This gun is supremely accurate, 1/4 moa like all my dads builds, and is very light, and drop dead gorgeous in a walnut burl stock. One issue I have had with it though, is bullet construction. The 129 gr SBTs that achieve that accuracy, are really lethal out to a couple hundred yards, but will not expand effectively beyond 250. I will not take a shot beyond 200 anymore, but you were talking about how target bullets that would disintegrate at closer ranges, have effective expansion at longer ones. But I would really advocate for good controlled expansion bullets at any range or clambering. I am also in 100% agreement with the philosophy of smashing bone structure in shoulders. I like neck shots for their reliability in disabling an animal immediately, but smashing the shoulders will also ensure that a deer stays exactly where it was when you shot it.
My dad bought 2 old swedish military rifles back in the day he had one sporterized. It's a fantastic tack driver of a rifle. Killed my first deer with it and a handful of other deer it's a truly awesome round for whitetail.
Imagine then, the 6.5x55 swede is one of the most common calibers in scandinavia. In sweden its around 40% of all rifles in use. the only caliber that has lately started to compete is the 308 Winchester. For a new hunter OR target shooter there is only 1 caliber to consider - 6.5x55. There is no cheaper ammo, 308 is getting closer, recoil is low and rifles common both new and used. For moose we run the 156-160 grain bullets, and law states that 140 is the lightest allowed for moose/bear/pigs. There is a impact energy @100 meters requirement to (2700j with 140, 2000 with 156+) that need to be satisfied. Modern 6.5x55 rifles kick the 6.5 Creedmoors ass, it takes same pressures but have more capacity. 6.5 PRC might beat it, but thats not really an option in sweden - its easier just go 6.5x55AI as it lets you use cheap factory ammo.
@markgrant3653 Short action and cheaper / more readily available brass. Not to mention all the good barrels and guns available now. Same great ballistics in a much more widely supported format.
That from which all other 6.5mm's sprang... In 1891, the Swedish-Norwegian Rifle Commission started its work. After extensive ballistic tests where different calibers were tested (8 mm, 7.5 mm, 7 mm, 6.5 mm etc.), the optimal caliber was determined to be 6.5 mm (0.264 in). Following this decision, a joint Norwegian-Swedish commission was established in December 1893. This commission worked through a series of meetings to decide on the different measurements for the cartridge case. A rimless cartridge case of 55 mm length was approved, and each possible measurement (diameter at base, diameter at neck, angle of case, angle of shoulder etc.) was decided upon. The corresponding dimensions of the cartridge chamber to be used in a future service rifle was also determined. At the time of its development the 6.5×55mm was a high-performance smokeless-powder cartridge. The design of the joint Norwegian-Swedish commission was subsequently adopted by the Norwegian and Swedish governments, and entered service in the Norwegian and Swedish militaries. The cartridge was also adopted by the Danish, Norwegian and Swedish civilian shooting associations. This is were the 6.5mm started life as a smokeless answer to the French 8x50mm Lebel.
I've gone back to listen to this podcast a few times now because it's just a wonderful amount of information that's a great, easy listen. Y'all should do one with Ryan for all the different calibers, 17-50 cal.
I've been a 6.5 swede shooter since I was old enough to hunt. My dad was a master gunsmith, and always heralded the virtues on the round. He built mine by have, and not only is it gorgeous but its a ¼ moa laser beam. I fell in love with my brothers 6.5 Grendel in an AR platform for deer on a Texas whitetail hunt. The thing is not only ridiculously accurate, but its killed 13 deer with a single shot. I remember my longest kill with the swede, at 290 yards shooting a 129 grain boat tail soft point that was a monster under 200 yards, and the bullet failed to expand. Only time I had to fire twice with that gun, and it made me start thinking about partition bullets to have the expansion when you drop under 1600 fps, but would still have plenty of killing power at closer range. Now after Dads passing, and having but every 6 and 6.5 variation imaginable between the Grendel and the 06 Ackley, I still find myself in love with that gorgeous little 6.5 swede that I've hunted with since I was 12.
Hey Guys, Love your videos! Lots of useful information for everyone ranging from the newcomer to the seasoned hunter/shooter. Here are two requests for future videos: 1. Talk about the ethics of hunting. "Ethics" is always in the background, and it would be great to hear the criteria you employ when shooting at animals. 2. Bullet construction. So many people are obsessed with caliber selection, but in my mind bullet construction is way more important! I think a lot of people are uneducated about this topic. Keep up the good work, gentlemen!
Much appreciated! We did have a terminal ballistics podcast that came out just a couple weeks ago now that talked a lot about bullet construction - feel free to check that one out! As for the ethics thing, it's definitely an interesting topic for sure, but one that's difficult for a company to get into :) lol Maybe we'll just bit the bullet and do it anyway sometime! haha
6.5 creedmoor is hear to stay. No doubt in my mind about it. Owning many calibres my 6.5 creedmoor is my sweetest spot. It just works so darn well and recoil is so mild my kids can shoot it. What doesn’t get mentioned much I have noticed is versatility. In my books it’s the modern .243. I can hunt p-dogs and yotes one day at Long range, next day hunt deer or even moose without any concerns. 22-250 has always been my go to for long range Varminter, however I would be lying to say that my 6.5 doesn’t work better and ammo is close in price to boot. My appeal with the 6.5 creed is all the things it can do well, and recoil is never an issue.
I think that the 6.5 Creedmoor helped in popularity when the ar10 platform started adopting it because it fit in the magazine, low recoil and higher velocity. You then get a round you put in the bolt action rifle for your kids to shoot and enjoy. I know the 260 remington was available in an ar10 as well, but it never picked up popularity, and it might be because certain ammo companies got behind the Creedmoor.
6.5 PRC is quite a bit better than the 6.5 RPM. At 300 yards the PRC has 2,019 ft/lbs of energy while the RPM has 1988 ft/lbs. At 500 yards the PRC has 1610 ft/lbs while the RPM has 1504 ft/lbs. PRC stops killing elk ethically at 740 yards (E-Tip or ELD-X) while RMP stops killing elk ethically at 515 yards. Also if your hand loading the 153 grain Hornady A-Tip with the PRC you can load it to 62 grains and get 3200 ft/sec and have enough ft/lbs to ethically kill elk at 800 yards. The A-Tip have great expansion dropping Mule Deer, Elk etc... Other considerations in regards to the 6.5 PRC; The 6.5 PRC’s 143-grain ELD-X overtakes the 7mm at 250 yards and then begins pulling away. At 800 yards the PRC is 383 fps faster and has 61% more energy. 6.5 PRC has more ft/lbs of energy than the 30-06 from 160 yards and beyond. 300 WM stops killing elk ethically at 900 yds. 6.5 PRC stops killing elk ethically at 800 yrds (A-Tip 153 grain). 300 WM stops killing mountain critters ethically at 1,000 yrds. 6.5 PRC stops killing mountain critters ethically at 1,000 yrds. At 1,000 yards the 6.5 PRC is traveling 5 percent faster than a .300 Win. Mag with 68% less felt recoil.
There's no ethical shot on elk past 400 yards. Any fool that takes a 1000 yard shot at any large game should never be able to get a hunting license again. Just because a Corvette can do 180 mph doesn't mean that it is ethical to drive it down a busy highway at 180 mph.
I’m new to your podcast, but your chemistry together is exceptional. So many times these kinds of group discussions quickly degenerate into uncomfortable knowledge contests, but not you guys. Your sessions are relaxed, fun-banter, ego-free discussions among friends where no one is trying to top each other. Good stuff. Keep ‘em coming . . . My two cents on this subject - the Hornady guys certainly did some clever engineering on the 6.5 Creedmoor, but if they would’ve called it the 6.5 Hornady, it would’ve gone nowhere. Along with some fine engineering, the use of the term Creedmoor was marketing genius.
As much as I love a 6.5 Creedmor, I went went a 7mm-08. It fits nicely in the middle of the 6.5 and .308, Still may buy a 6.5 Creedmor later as some used ones come available.
@@TMar129 In the same gun, you wouldn't be able to notice any difference in recoil, if you shot one right after the other. On paper the 7mm-08 has in the neighborhood of 1/2 a pound more of felt recoil. But like i said, there's no way anyone can honestly feel that small amount of difference.
I think one reason the pendulum swings. 42:59 Is that you want to try a new rifle. Or you want to try a new style. Or you want to go out to a new region, or a new game. Examples. Or you want a close range hunting coyote, or turkey, you want a lever gun. You want a long range light recoil target. You want an economical practice rifle purely for your baseline marksmanship. You want an AR, A bolt. Action, a lite weight mountain hiking, goat rifle. Etc etc etc. And if you love your 308 winchester, you don't necessarily want every rifle chambered in 308 winchester. Similarly, you don't necessarily want the identical. Tikka rifle for every cartridge you might use for various game. Thus, you have a market for the new innovations. Particularly as improved technology emerges, and it slowly works through the market across various calibres ...
Great discussion. I love how Ryan went into detail on bullet construction. The 6.5 with amax (now eldm) was a huge contributor to the 6.5 getting its long range claim to fame and at low/mild impact velocities which aid expansion, is devastating on appropriately sized game. Heavy match bullets work wonderfully for hunting with short 16-18in barreled mild calibers like 6.5, 308, etc. The slower muzzle velocity from the start aids in penetration, same as a longer barrel at extended ranges. Same concept as older cartridges like the 303 or 300 savage using heavy frangible soft points at mild velocities for elk and moose in the past. The only difference is our new high BC bullets aid in trajectory where in the past the only solution was to add more powder for trajectory. Match that bullet to the rifle and the intended use and it’s amazing how effective they can be.
Buy a 6.5X55, shoot it all day at the range very comfortably, and hunt anything and everything up to elk. Tell those in the know that you shoot a Swed and you’ll always get a satisfying nod of approval. Put a 125g Partition or 130g Accubond in the boiler room out to 400 yards and it’s game over.
I have found that limit on bullet construction vs. velocity vs. distance. Took my new Ruger stainless M77 300 Win mag out for a Christmas day hunt and ended up with a 30-35 yard shoot on a mature whitetail Doe. She fell like the Hammer of Thor had found her. Bullet didn't make it through the second shoulder and I lost both shoulders. Ammo was the Remington Core Lokt 180gr. It held the tightest group of factory loads I had bought while load experimenting. Cheers and stay safe.
Body taper was a result of African hunting ....slightly overpressure rounds are less likey to stick in the chamber and marginally easier to feed. Also the origin of the belted magnums .....all about headspace and proper operation in adverse conditions.
And easy ejection in hot conditions while an angry beastie is charging right at you. Bolt-action or double, if you need that third-round at muzzle-to-muzzle's length...
I like my 270, but the usable bullet selection and bc available are limited with the 1:10 twist hence the reason I've considered the 6.5 prc because I can use better bc bullets at the same speed or faster with better down range energy.
Because they are kidding themselves about how far away they are shooting game. 270 simply has a larger powder reservoir and as such can push 150's a good bit faster than a CM and more mass going faster equals more energy. The BC advantage comparing a 150 gr 270 vs a 140 gr 6.5 CM will never be a factor when talking about hunting. By the time the 6.5 starts pulling ahead you are out past effective ranges for either cartridge in terms of hunting.
@@K-bob_45 I agree that's why I bought the 270 instead of the creedmore. The 6.5 precision rifle cartridge (prc) by hornady has an almost identical powder capacity to the 270 with a faster twist barrel. So you get better bc bullets starting at the same speed or faster than the 270 with about the same or less felt recoil.
1:09:47 Same question here. Is it not practical to load the primary 'magazine' with the close range profile ammunition, but have a secondary magaize, or at least a few cartridges, that can be cycled into the rifle, with that long range profile?
What about the 6.5 Grendel for eastern hunting where shots are typically closer than out west? Howa makes a nifty little mini action Grendel I’m curious about.
Y'all should do an episode about the etymology of calibers with Ryan. Where does ackley come from, why is there a "-300" on 6.5-300, what does a "-06" mean is a 30-06 and 25-06, why are some Creedmore, Creed, etc. Are Creedmore rounds from the same designer, team, or have the same traits, etc? Ackley, AI, etc? These are example and I know some of them but not all.
9:28 The way it was explained to me and I have done some research on this, is that with a traditional "Boat Tail" design, as the projectile exits the crown of the muzzle, the gasses blow out in front of the bullet which now has to fly through that turbulent air. I think it has less to with whats happening in the pipe than when it exits the pipe. Thats what causes potential inaccuracy in most Boat tail designs as they exit the crown, IF your crown is undamaged. Thats a whole other discussion. The flat base bullets, when they exit..... the gasses behind it form into a ring around the bullet and away from it. If you want the best of both worlds High B.C. and accurate, try a rebated boat tail. It bassically does the same thing to the gasses as a flat base but retains a high ballistic coefficient. I use Alco Bullets and with the right hand loads I have shot quarter MOA groups with them through my 7mm Rem Mag. Happy shooting! P.S. Nothing beats the B.C's of a .284 (7mm) technically 7.2mm, until you get into the .400's....lol!
A few items with misinformation. 6.5 Sherman Shortmag isn’t on the WSM case. It’s based off of the SAUM case. But I get where his confusion comes from. They seem to purposely avoid talking about it. But also. The wsm case and the SAUM case have the same diameter. He says the SAUM case is short and narrower. It’s only shorter. I do like how there is one guy who has a whole wealth of knowledge who talks. And one guy who knows next to nothing and asks the most basic questions to let the layman catch up.
I just picked up a 6.5 PRC for hunting deer and the occasional elk or moose. The PRC carries more than enough energy and velocity for a monolithic copper bullet to perform out well past 500 yds (my personal limit), but with less recoil and less drop than the 300 win mag and 30-06 I used to carry.
Saw some discussions about flat vs boat-tail and one additional reason for the increased accuracy in flat based bullets are how the pressure wave interacts (or dont) with the bullet outside the barrel. You could see on high speed photography that the flat base bullet was outside the pressure wave, where as the boat tail bullet could intersect with the pressure just outside (couple inces) the barrel.
I really agree with having a bullet construction that will hold together and penetrate. I shot a cow elk with my 270 Winchester at 465 yards 127 grain leighigh defense controlled chaos. The first bullet destroyed the humerus and deflected through the lungs and liver, and lodged in a very full stomach. The second bullet was only 1.5 inches from the first, and it blew through everything. I've really considered the 6.5 prc but the ballistics are are so similar to my 270 at hunting ranges
Interesting discussion, 2 years later we have the SIG .277 Fury coming up operating at 80,000 psi in the Cross rifle. Wanna have some fun ? I bought a 270 Savage Axis for a ham sandwich and rebarreled it to 6.5CM with a Shaw 26" tube. With that long action you can seat those 143 ELDX's all the way out and put in a little extra powder. The rifle runs great, haven't reached it's limit yet. I call it my Poor Man's 6.5 PRC. As for bullet construction I started out hunting with a 270 and after penciling my first 2 deer I switched to a SMLE in 303 Brit I had filled with Remington Core-Lokt and had great success. After many years of reloading and National Match shooting I drug out that old 270 and loaded it with a starting charge of powder and Nosler 130gr. Ballistic Tip bullets because I heard they mushroomed easily. Low and behold that rifle turned into my favorite dropping deer in their tracks. Enough oomph to punch a shoulder and have massive internal damage, never had an animal travel more than 15 yards. In the years since I've loaded many 308 and 30/06 rounds for friends using the 125gr. Nosler bullets with reduced charges and the same result. The shots were inside 200 yards with most just over 100 so there is that. Would I use it in National Match, I did on the 100 and 200 yard line, at 300 and 600 I switched up to 165 SMK for the same reasons people use the 143's in the Creedmoor. For many people it's very hard for them to believe that a slower moving bullet could have better performance on a critter, wound ballistics. As for the 6.5CM, Deer don't take a lot of killing and with both my son and daughter along with myself hunting with it over the last 3 seasons I've seen fantastic results even with the 143's to the point that IMHO it just might be a near perfect deer rifle and doing it all with 38-40gr. of powder and very low recoil as a result.
Pausing before watching. I'm looking at a Christensen Arms MPR in 6.5PRC It's only offered in a 24" barrel. Being that I want to strictly punch paper for right now, I wanted at least a 26" barrel for accuracy. Am I making a bad choice? Should I change calibers? I got the ammo before the gun.... Could always sell it. I'm not a hunter, never was. I could always go custom. Just looking for some feedback from people who have used 6.5prc has a paper punching round
If you want to be competitive at the farthest distances you will need a custom precision barrel. That said I have seen stock 24" give more velocity than a 26 due to tighter tolerance . You did not mention if you will be hand loading your ammo going forward or just shooting factory. that will determine how long you can go and twist
Barrel length will not help you with accuracy. In fact, many shooters have found that a shorter barrel can be more accurate. Longer barrels will give you more velocity. About 25 fps per inch of barrel. Shrink your 26 down to 20 and you'll give up 150 fps, but you'll have a stiffer barrel. It's all about balancing your options to get the result you want.
The projectiles are the factor here more so than the cartridges themselves. 7RM and 30-06 aren't that far apart if you are talking about loading modern bullets in both and loading the 30-06 up until you see pressure like most do now.
Inherant accuracy is normally talking about consistency........short powder colums are more likely to ignite fully .....so theoretical is is a short fat case. Shoulder angle is believed to affect case stretch and life. ....neck length affects bullet length that can be seated without losing powder space ...........now throw in things like bolt face for a particular platform as well as action/magazine length. Many case are "created" to fill other particular needs....not just to compare them to existing rounds.
The 6.5x55 AI is actually the 6.5x55 BJAI, Ackley never messed with the Swede but Bob Jordan applied his formula to the case and created the BJAI case. If I'd known of this cartridge at the time I built my Swede I'd have opted for the Ackleyized version. Think 6.5-284 w/o the need to change your feed rails to accommodate the fat cartridge and rebated rim.
Looking at getting a 6.5 for a do it all rifle, prs and hunting deer. Would love if you did an in depth on 6.5 x 55 swede as they are widely available here in Europe and plenty of 2nd hand options. Very confused how It compares to a creedmoor.
The problem with ALL of these fat for bore cartridges is that velocity gains always come at a price. The greater the ratio of case width to bore, especially on longer cases, is that barrel life is compromised. A6.5 CM is good for 1500 to 2000 rounds compared with 10,000 for a 308. The 6.5 PrC has likely lower barrel life than a CM. Throat erosion tends to be accelerated on fat for bore loadings partly due to the comparatively higher pressures these run at and partly as they share similar higher rate burning powders compared with the same calibre in a thinner case diameter. 6.5 CM isn’t too bad of a compromise especially loaded moderately. It’s been the fastest selling cal in the UK for the past few years and will reliably take all UK deer species but the point about the right bullet matters a lot. Even the SST works well on big deer if used several hundred yards out but might not be best used under 100yds! This cal offers great loadings for vermin control too. It, the 308 and the 223 are probably the UK’s most popular calibres for good reason.
6.5 Swede is definitely the mainstay in Europe. I prefer the .264 Win Mag, but they don’t make much ammo for it anymore. If you handload though, .264 win mag is great! A lot more energy and terminal effect down range without adding too much kick in the shoulder. Great cartridge.
I think I have enough points to draw a Hodag tag next year. Will the 6.5 BitchCat be available by then and if so would this be an adequate cartridge selection?
Hi guys, Thanks for this. I found the information very helpful. I mean recoil..distance.cost of ammo...and was the barnes a solid copper tipped? thanks, looks like I am going to add this round to the list
Would love to see a podcast video on the 30-06. I know there's been million articles and videos on the cartridge but I just like how indepth the conversation gets on the full episodes podcasts. Thanks much
Issue with the tapers and angles I think is overlooked. On the actual production manufacturing side. Taper helps free the case from the tooling and more taper more gradual edges and contours prevent tool and die wear. When you have tooling with parallel sides low taper etc you have much higher shear along the tooling and you get wear. You can blow out taper and steepen the case on hand loading. The occasional semi stuck case in a die? NBD .01% more wear on the tooling at the ammo factory? Same increase in stickage on the assembly line? Big ass deal.
This was fun to listen to. It’s interesting though that so much of the conversation was around ballistics: BC, velocity, sectional density. Those are vitally important, but it took almost an hour to get to some of the factors that really make or break a cartridge in the market. Will it fit in XXX magazine? Can I use the same bolt face as .308 Winchester or 5.56 NATO? Can I make a short action rifle for this cartridge? Can I find cases or easily reshape a case that is ubiquitous? What is the shooting experience like? (.270 vs. 45-70 for example). Will it feed reliably and how many can I get in a “standard” magazine? The discussion very briefly touched on market introduction but that is critical. The 6.5 Grendel is arguably a superb cartridge, but Alexander Arms more or less wrote the book on how *not* to gain market acceptance. These guys mention how Hornady got behind 6.5 Creedmoor. Their marketing expertise and market penetration made a HUGE difference. Get SAAMI specs put there. Make factory ammo available. Put the data in your load book that virtually every handloader keeps a copy of. Make a variety of bullets. And a whole lot more. I believe that 8.6 Blackout may eclipse 300 Blackout in a short period of time. Why? First off it’s a really interesting cartridge in terms of subsonic performance. If you can’t go fast, go heavy. It fits any action and magazine that takes .308 Winchester and uses the same bolt face. 6.5 Creedmoor is the best parent case but apparently you can use 308 cases. Faxon is making barrels for 308-style ARs *and* bolt action rifles. Pacific Tool & Gauge makes reamers and headspace gauges - not on a custom basis but as standard offerings. And Hornady is pushing it with their marketing program. Oh and Q isn’t trying to keep it proprietary.
Sectional density has to do with bullet weight and bullet diameter only. The equation is Sectional Density = (BulletMass (in grains) ÷ 7000) ÷ BulletDiameter². For example, let's use a 180 grain .308 bullet. SD = (180÷7000)÷0.308² = (0.0257)÷0.0949 = 0.271. The sectional density is 0.271. Doesn't matter if a bullet is lead, copper, unobtanium, or whatever for sectional density purposes, only the mass and frontal diameter. The higher the SD, the "denser" the bullet (relative to its cross section). A higher SD bullet will penetrate deeper all things being equal. We can look at a 9mm bullet for an example. A 124 grain .355" bullet has an SD of .141. A 9mm that doesn't expand can be expected to penetrate clean through a human torso sized target. Now, let's say that one bullet was a hollowpoint that didn't expand and got a full pass-through on the target. The shooter shot again (same gun, same ammo, even the same muzzle velocity), but this time the bullet expanded to .650" when it hit the target. When the bullet expanded from .355" to .650", the sectional density went from .141 to .042, which partially helps explain why that expanded bullet did not pass-through the target, but instead stopped inside the target. The way you can sort of think of it if you know about Ballistic Coefficient (BC) and not SD is that SD is to terminal ballistics what BC is to external ballistics. If possible, I'd love a 10 minute episode on the .270 Winchester that goes longer than 10 min. I love that caliber. O'Connor and Keith may have hated each other, but the cartridges they each are best known for promoting are my two favorites, the .270 Winchester and a .44 Magnum.
My theory is that a boat tail vs flat base interaction at the muzzle accounts for a lot of differences you may or may not experience in accuracy. I shoot a lot of cast bullets and the thing to check for is a well formed base with uniform sprue cut. A few wrinkles in the nose don't really matter but if the base has any flaws that's a flyer for sure. The gasses come out much faster than the bullet and they impinge on the base with tremendous force. Any irregularity will produce torque. This is why most FMJs kind of suck IMHO. Their bases are very irregular. This is also why you really don't want to ding up the crown of the muzzle.
I own a .264 WM with a 1:9 twist and shooting the 140 Core Lot for Elk under 150 yards. I have been testing high velocity impacts with also Speer Gold Dot 140 because it's also bonded and short enough to stabilize with surprising results. Speer Impact bullets in 6.5 are about to hit the market that have .534 BC and are just as long as the Nosler Partition 140 gr. I don't want to change caliber's for now so my question is what bullet would you guys recommend for both close range and long range impacts for a 1:9 twist?
is there a better cartridge than 6.5creedmoor that's widely available in an AR-10 platform? I love the idea of getting a hot, fast shooting 6.5 PRC or something but I know those bigger rounds have trouble fitting in AR-10 actions and mags.
The top 5 flattest-shooting popular rifle cartridge at 1,000 yards is #1 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum, followed by the .26 Nosler, the .28 Nosler, the .22 Creedmoor, and the 6.5 Weatherby RPM. These cartridges all drop less than 255″ at 1,000 yards. This data comes from another U Tube channel. If you search "Flattest shooting cartridges ever" by Backfire. #6-10 is 7mm Weatherby Magnum, .264 Winchester Magnum, 6.5 PRC, 7 STW,. 30-378 Weatherby Magnum
26 Nosler is pretty flat shooting for sure. I think I like the idea of 6.5's more than I actually like them. I think alot of ammo companies try to re-invent the wheel to much as a marketing tool. I'll stick with my crusty ol' 7mm Rem Mag. With hand loads I can make it shoot flatter than a 26 Nosler and a 300 Win Mag with factory ammo. With the right bullet. In the case of a current hand load I'm working up, 5.4 Mil's at a 1000😁 I absolutely love your pod cast, tons of great info. Kind of shocked that it's not more popular on RUclips. Probably algorithms fudging the numbers.
We appreciate you tuning in, my friend! Thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation! :) If you ever have any other topics you'd like us to explore, definitely let us know!
I have to take an aspirin now because my head is so full of things I won’t remember but I will not forget the 6.5 Bitch cat! I love you guys!! You would want to use a picture of a wolverine ripping a grizzly a new one in your marketing strategy. Small yet wildly powerful!
Ryan, What ammo would you shoot out of a TC 30 out of a Thompson Center pro Hunter. I currently shoot Hornady SST 165 grain. I mostly hunt deer. Also could you do a talk on the TC 30 cartridge.
One thing people don’t usually touch on when it comes to round popularity is marketability of the name of the cartridge. When you add a descriptor at the end of a round that sounds familiar, people tend to be less intimidated by it. Cartridges with Winchester in the name are going to feel more approachable than something with “Swede” or “weatherby”
Ryan, you promote the shoulder shot method, but most hunters I know believe the behind the shoulder shot that goes in and damages lungs is best. I think the shoulder shot is best too, but most shooters disagree. Any thoughts.
Thanks much for the conversation. While I am not enamoured with the 6.5 Creedmoor, it is the only round available to me at the moment in a particular take down rifle that I actually need, not want. So I am trying hard to gain some confidence in the round, at least on paper (hunting at no more than 400 yds). But I am concerned about a rather strongly worded criticism by a senior member of the tribe that this cartridge suffers in various degrees and in factory iteration, from inconsistent case length (of I understood him correctly), resulting in a certain and varying rate of loading failure. Very unsettling! Does this “observation” resonate with you? Thank you.
29:08 I shoot my 7mm Rem Mag all day. Muzzle breaks from Witt Machine & tool company work wonders. If I'm Reloading ammo just for plinking or working on my marksmanship, it cost me $12.60 that shoots better than factory. If I'm loading for competition or match grade ammunition it costs me about $33.40. Cheap range ammo from PPU or Reminton is between $35.00 and $40.00. I can find components for 7mm Rem Mag all over the world, it's not as popular as the 6.5 creed in North Ameroca and I like that because again I can get compnents for it. I work at a reloading store and I can tell you personally we haven't had 6.5 creed brass in quite some time because demand for it is so high and ammo companies are using it for their factory ammo. They make more money off of a box of live ammo than they do components. To be fair, I'm not adding the cost of brass or primers because I have so much of it and with the brass you have to devide the cost of brass by how many times you reload it. The primers I'm using are free and I have enough to last this barrel, into the next. Word of advice. KEEP YOUR BRASS.
I like what Hornady was trying accomplish with the 6.5 PRC. However, back in 2017 Hornady has video of George Gardner on their channel stating that the 6.5 PRC is the best option to run high BC bullets in a short action. I feel that Hornady rushed this cartridge to market without looking at the possibility of future bullets such as the 156gr Bergers or Hornady's own 153gr A-tip. These heavy bullets need to be seated deep in the 6.5 PRC case to be magazine fed in a short action. I would like to see Hornady adopt some of the 6.5 Sherman Short cartridges. These cartridges are much more well suited for a short action. I seen load data on 6.5 SST that gets at a 156gr Berger to 3020fps and the 147gr ELD-M to 3100fps. While the Sherman cartridges have no SAAMI standard, I think they could made to SAAMI standards and run around 60-65ksi. Hornady should definitely consider looking at these cartridges.
A buddy of mine swears that the 6.5x55mm Swede reloaded a little on the hot side topped with the 140 gr. Nosler Partition or Accubond is ideal for game up to and including moose and bear
Great discussion. Just developed a load for my new-to-me 6.5-300 Wby, it’s a 127 gr LRX @ 3400 fps. I kid you not it kicks like a .300 Win Mag without the brake. Excited to see how it handles game this season. At some point I’d like a rifle in a more reasonable 6.5mm cartridge for the range.
Another aspect that I think was just touched upon with the newer cartridges , the Creedmoors , some others, and particularly the PRCs is they have longer throats for the longer bullets seated farther out. That keeps the bullet out of the powder space and helps keep the bullet aligned.. I have found the PRCs difficult with shorter bullets.
6.5 creedmoor was just officially adopted by American SOCOM. So it seems like it is here to stay. I’ve heard they are even chambering machine guns in 6.5 creed
Just buy a .264 Win Mag. Winchester designed it as the Ultimate Western Deer & Antelope Cartridge. I can tell you having shot one since 1982 it has never let me down. If you Reload it will serve you well as Winchester envisioned. Anything larger in case capacity has diminishing returns. What make a accurate rifle the 3 B’s. Barrel Bullet and bedding. There is some minor improvements in cases you will never see it in the hunting fields, Bench Rest Rifles yes.
The Swedes did it right! They developed the 6.5x55 in 1892. Norway went with the Krag rifle in 6.5x55. Then Sweden went with the Mauser rifle, they had two conditions that Mauser had to meet. One, the rifle must be made in the 6.5x55. Two, the rifle must be made with Swedish steel. During production of the rifles in Germany, Sweden shipped their steel to the Mauser plant in Germany with advisors to make sure that they were using the Swedish steel. The rifles were proof tested up to 75,000 psi. They are the strongest pre 98 Mauser actions.
I am a new hunter and trying to understand the all copper bullets . So they don't have long range energy but they do have good velocity . With the 6.5 use in hunting should a hunter just look at velocity for expansion or does the downrange energy still matter ?
Velocity for expansion matters, but it needs to not come apart, and ideally you want as much energy dumped before it exits. Its a balance. Energy does not do much good if it just punches through with no expansion.
The energy of a bullet is just a function of the velocity, and the energy doesn't really mean anything when it comes to hunting. Make sure you're shooting a bullet with adequate sectional density for the game you're hunting, and then find out at what range will the bullet run of adequate velocity to fully expand AND pass completely through the animal. As a beginning hunter, I recommend that you limit yourself to 200 yards anyway, unless you're shooting at varmints. There's another RUclips'r called gunblue490. He has some really good hunting vids. Check out one called "How to select hunting bullets".
For Marks example wanting a bullet to shoot 20yds to 600yds , I would take 2 mags with both long range high bc bullets and 1 with shorter range heavier core bullet for shorter range. Sight in and set up for the long range bullet and see what the offset is for the short range and know it at a few distances. 20 -300yds.
Been building a mini arsenal the past 16 months... yet haven't pulled the trigger on a 6.5... yet :) I'll get there soon though... I was thinking about the 6.5 PRC
I decided to try a 6.5 PRC about 6 months ago to get a bit more power . First box of factory 147 shot 1/4 - 3/8 moa off bipod and my shoulder. Truing the factory or handloading it easily stays under 1/4 moa. It was developed to be sweet spot for PRS competition and I think it certainly has potential to be a great all around
Was it Alexander Arms that developed the 6.5 Grendel? It doesn’t matter how good a cartridge is if you screw up by the numbers with your business model. Hornady got behind the 6.5 Creedmoor. They know how to market a cartridge and have the market share and presence to make it happen.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
No discussion of the 6.5 Swede? One of the greatest hunting rounds ever created. Low recoil and deadly. In Norway they kill polar bears with it. Very effective in Africa. A popular round for boar in Russia and Romania. Popular in Germany and France.
They mentioned it.
Yea but not here. That’s a double edged sword. If something was actually popular here that’s not from here like 9mm it’s already been covered a million times. If it’s not popular they aren’t going to do a full episode on it. Sure the 6.5x55 is great. But nobody cares.
What is main difference between that's caliber (swedish) and 6.5 creedmore In real hunt life?
@@docooo if I may. They are basically identical unless you get a chamber cut longer in the swed. Trying to put a heavier bullet in a swed takes away from powder capacity and brings it down to a creed. Apples to apples both shooting a 140 they are about dead even with stock chambers. Now if you push the lands on a swed a little bit then that’s a different story. But both stock with a heavy pill they are identical. Which is kinda funny. Only reason creed is anything you’ve heard of is because of cartridge overall length which matches a 308. If the creed was .05 longer you’d never even have heard about it. Ones longer and tapered that’s about it. But they are essentially identical as far as getting a xxx down range at xxxx.
6.5 prc is going to catch on more and more as supplies go back into stock, and is probably going to take over the middle grounds of long range. There’s going to be a 160 plus grain pill for 6.5 before long and it will be king without the pain of .30 cal. But a serious serious capable platform.
I'm thrilled to see someone bringing up the 6.5x55 Swede. I have hunted with it literally all my life. My father built a masterpiece 96 spotter for my older brother before I was born, but he turned out left handed, so it became mine when I was big enough to shoot it. This gun is supremely accurate, 1/4 moa like all my dads builds, and is very light, and drop dead gorgeous in a walnut burl stock.
One issue I have had with it though, is bullet construction. The 129 gr SBTs that achieve that accuracy, are really lethal out to a couple hundred yards, but will not expand effectively beyond 250. I will not take a shot beyond 200 anymore, but you were talking about how target bullets that would disintegrate at closer ranges, have effective expansion at longer ones. But I would really advocate for good controlled expansion bullets at any range or clambering.
I am also in 100% agreement with the philosophy of smashing bone structure in shoulders. I like neck shots for their reliability in disabling an animal immediately, but smashing the shoulders will also ensure that a deer stays exactly where it was when you shot it.
My dad bought 2 old swedish military rifles back in the day he had one sporterized. It's a fantastic tack driver of a rifle. Killed my first deer with it and a handful of other deer it's a truly awesome round for whitetail.
Imagine then, the 6.5x55 swede is one of the most common calibers in scandinavia. In sweden its around 40% of all rifles in use.
the only caliber that has lately started to compete is the 308 Winchester.
For a new hunter OR target shooter there is only 1 caliber to consider - 6.5x55. There is no cheaper ammo, 308 is getting closer, recoil is low and rifles common both new and used.
For moose we run the 156-160 grain bullets, and law states that 140 is the lightest allowed for moose/bear/pigs. There is a impact energy @100 meters requirement to (2700j with 140, 2000 with 156+) that need to be satisfied.
Modern 6.5x55 rifles kick the 6.5 Creedmoors ass, it takes same pressures but have more capacity. 6.5 PRC might beat it, but thats not really an option in sweden - its easier just go 6.5x55AI as it lets you use cheap factory ammo.
@@jmkhenka For Sweden, try the 9.3x57. I use the 9.3x62 with good effect on larger game.
6.5 Swedish is my favorite rifle round. I wish that those designers were around now. Low recoil and reliably accurate.
I have a remington 700 classic in the swed and my handloads with a 140 nosler 2800 fps with RL 22 and great accuracy. Its been a deadly load.
I think a lot of people ( myself included ) with 6.5x55mm hunting experience were very happy to see the 6.5 Creedmoor come along.
@markgrant3653 Short action and cheaper / more readily available brass. Not to mention all the good barrels and guns available now. Same great ballistics in a much more widely supported format.
@@samuelpope7798 plus to my understanding you can fit heavier/higher bc bullets in the 6.5 CM.
That from which all other 6.5mm's sprang... In 1891, the Swedish-Norwegian Rifle Commission started its work. After extensive ballistic tests where different calibers were tested (8 mm, 7.5 mm, 7 mm, 6.5 mm etc.), the optimal caliber was determined to be 6.5 mm (0.264 in). Following this decision, a joint Norwegian-Swedish commission was established in December 1893. This commission worked through a series of meetings to decide on the different measurements for the cartridge case. A rimless cartridge case of 55 mm length was approved, and each possible measurement (diameter at base, diameter at neck, angle of case, angle of shoulder etc.) was decided upon. The corresponding dimensions of the cartridge chamber to be used in a future service rifle was also determined. At the time of its development the 6.5×55mm was a high-performance smokeless-powder cartridge. The design of the joint Norwegian-Swedish commission was subsequently adopted by the Norwegian and Swedish governments, and entered service in the Norwegian and Swedish militaries. The cartridge was also adopted by the Danish, Norwegian and Swedish civilian shooting associations. This is were the 6.5mm started life as a smokeless answer to the French 8x50mm Lebel.
I've gone back to listen to this podcast a few times now because it's just a wonderful amount of information that's a great, easy listen. Y'all should do one with Ryan for all the different calibers, 17-50 cal.
I've been a 6.5 swede shooter since I was old enough to hunt. My dad was a master gunsmith, and always heralded the virtues on the round. He built mine by have, and not only is it gorgeous but its a ¼ moa laser beam. I fell in love with my brothers 6.5 Grendel in an AR platform for deer on a Texas whitetail hunt. The thing is not only ridiculously accurate, but its killed 13 deer with a single shot. I remember my longest kill with the swede, at 290 yards shooting a 129 grain boat tail soft point that was a monster under 200 yards, and the bullet failed to expand. Only time I had to fire twice with that gun, and it made me start thinking about partition bullets to have the expansion when you drop under 1600 fps, but would still have plenty of killing power at closer range.
Now after Dads passing, and having but every 6 and 6.5 variation imaginable between the Grendel and the 06 Ackley, I still find myself in love with that gorgeous little 6.5 swede that I've hunted with since I was 12.
Hey Guys,
Love your videos! Lots of useful information for everyone ranging from the newcomer to the seasoned hunter/shooter. Here are two requests for future videos:
1. Talk about the ethics of hunting. "Ethics" is always in the background, and it would be great to hear the criteria you employ when shooting at animals.
2. Bullet construction. So many people are obsessed with caliber selection, but in my mind bullet construction is way more important! I think a lot of people are uneducated about this topic.
Keep up the good work, gentlemen!
Much appreciated! We did have a terminal ballistics podcast that came out just a couple weeks ago now that talked a lot about bullet construction - feel free to check that one out! As for the ethics thing, it's definitely an interesting topic for sure, but one that's difficult for a company to get into :) lol Maybe we'll just bit the bullet and do it anyway sometime! haha
1:24:25 to witness the moment of conception of the 6.5 BC
Was watching this episode tonight, and came here to post this cool nugget as well. Good job on the BC as well guys.
6.5 creedmoor is hear to stay. No doubt in my mind about it. Owning many calibres my 6.5 creedmoor is my sweetest spot. It just works so darn well and recoil is so mild my kids can shoot it. What doesn’t get mentioned much I have noticed is versatility. In my books it’s the modern .243. I can hunt p-dogs and yotes one day at Long range, next day hunt deer or even moose without any concerns. 22-250 has always been my go to for long range Varminter, however I would be lying to say that my 6.5 doesn’t work better and ammo is close in price to boot. My appeal with the 6.5 creed is all the things it can do well, and recoil is never an issue.
I think that the 6.5 Creedmoor helped in popularity when the ar10 platform started adopting it because it fit in the magazine, low recoil and higher velocity. You then get a round you put in the bolt action rifle for your kids to shoot and enjoy.
I know the 260 remington was available in an ar10 as well, but it never picked up popularity, and it might be because certain ammo companies got behind the Creedmoor.
6.5 PRC is quite a bit better than the 6.5 RPM. At 300 yards the PRC has 2,019 ft/lbs of energy while the RPM has 1988 ft/lbs. At 500 yards the PRC has 1610 ft/lbs while the RPM has 1504 ft/lbs. PRC stops killing elk ethically at 740 yards (E-Tip or ELD-X) while RMP stops killing elk ethically at 515 yards. Also if your hand loading the 153 grain Hornady A-Tip with the PRC you can load it to 62 grains and get 3200 ft/sec and have enough ft/lbs to ethically kill elk at 800 yards. The A-Tip have great expansion dropping Mule Deer, Elk etc... Other considerations in regards to the 6.5 PRC; The 6.5 PRC’s 143-grain ELD-X overtakes the 7mm at 250 yards and then begins pulling away. At 800 yards the PRC is 383 fps faster and has 61% more energy. 6.5 PRC has more ft/lbs of energy than the 30-06 from 160 yards and beyond. 300 WM stops killing elk ethically at 900 yds. 6.5 PRC stops killing elk ethically at 800 yrds (A-Tip 153 grain). 300 WM stops killing mountain critters ethically at 1,000 yrds. 6.5 PRC stops killing mountain critters ethically at 1,000 yrds. At 1,000 yards the 6.5 PRC is traveling 5 percent faster than a .300 Win. Mag with 68% less felt recoil.
There's no ethical shot on elk past 400 yards. Any fool that takes a 1000 yard shot at any large game should never be able to get a hunting license again. Just because a Corvette can do 180 mph doesn't mean that it is ethical to drive it down a busy highway at 180 mph.
@@pjnelson5827 I shoot Red deer stags @ 500m to 650m with my RPR 300 WinMag 220gr ELD-X drops them on the spot very ethical
I’m new to your podcast, but your chemistry together is exceptional. So many times these kinds of group discussions quickly degenerate into uncomfortable knowledge contests, but not you guys. Your sessions are relaxed, fun-banter, ego-free discussions among friends where no one is trying to top each other. Good stuff. Keep ‘em coming . . .
My two cents on this subject - the Hornady guys certainly did some clever engineering on the 6.5 Creedmoor, but if they would’ve called it the 6.5 Hornady, it would’ve gone nowhere. Along with some fine engineering, the use of the term Creedmoor was marketing genius.
Just as I started to watch this, I realized it was two years old. I think it's time for a new episode: The 6mm Revolution
Oooh that's got a ring to it ;)
Or the 25 Creedmoor revolution, or the 22 Creedmoor revolution :)
As much as I love a 6.5 Creedmor, I went went a 7mm-08. It fits nicely in the middle of the 6.5 and .308, Still may buy a 6.5 Creedmor later as some used ones come available.
7mm-08 is the tits!!!
Ive never shot a 7mm-08, how does the recoil compare to the creed?
@@TMar129 In the same gun, you wouldn't be able to notice any difference in recoil, if you shot one right after the other. On paper the 7mm-08 has in the neighborhood of 1/2 a pound more of felt recoil. But like i said, there's no way anyone can honestly feel that small amount of difference.
@@TMar129 Very slight difference, barely noticeable.
Great choice!!... I lean toward the 7 as well.... 6.5 vs 270 vs 708 is a nightmare for me, lol...All are the best for North America.
Did i miss the coverage of the PRC ? Just stumbled upon these podcast. Nice work Vortex. Keep it up
I didn’t catch anything about 6.5 PRC either and that’s why I decided to listen to this.
Ok. Watching this whole thing. Totally worth it.
Next post. Sorry. New hunter here. Do bullet design next Hunting vs target.
I think one reason the pendulum swings.
42:59
Is that you want to try a new rifle. Or you want to try a new style.
Or you want to go out to a new region, or a new game.
Examples.
Or you want a close range hunting coyote, or turkey, you want a lever gun. You want a long range light recoil target.
You want an economical practice rifle purely for your baseline marksmanship.
You want an AR,
A bolt. Action, a lite weight mountain hiking, goat rifle.
Etc etc etc.
And if you love your 308 winchester, you don't necessarily want every rifle chambered in 308 winchester.
Similarly, you don't necessarily want the identical. Tikka rifle for every cartridge you might use for various game.
Thus, you have a market for the new innovations.
Particularly as improved technology emerges, and it slowly works through the market across various calibres ...
Great discussion. I love how Ryan went into detail on bullet construction. The 6.5 with amax (now eldm) was a huge contributor to the 6.5 getting its long range claim to fame and at low/mild impact velocities which aid expansion, is devastating on appropriately sized game. Heavy match bullets work wonderfully for hunting with short 16-18in barreled mild calibers like 6.5, 308, etc. The slower muzzle velocity from the start aids in penetration, same as a longer barrel at extended ranges. Same concept as older cartridges like the 303 or 300 savage using heavy frangible soft points at mild velocities for elk and moose in the past. The only difference is our new high BC bullets aid in trajectory where in the past the only solution was to add more powder for trajectory. Match that bullet to the rifle and the intended use and it’s amazing how effective they can be.
Buy a 6.5X55, shoot it all day at the range very comfortably, and hunt anything and everything up to elk. Tell those in the know that you shoot a Swed and you’ll always get a satisfying nod of approval. Put a 125g Partition or 130g Accubond in the boiler room out to 400 yards and it’s game over.
up to elk? we swedes hunt bear with that.
And moose
I have found that limit on bullet construction vs. velocity vs. distance. Took my new Ruger stainless M77 300 Win mag out for a Christmas day hunt and ended up with a 30-35 yard shoot on a mature whitetail Doe. She fell like the Hammer of Thor had found her. Bullet didn't make it through the second shoulder and I lost both shoulders. Ammo was the Remington Core Lokt 180gr. It held the tightest group of factory loads I had bought while load experimenting.
Cheers and stay safe.
I hope Remington keeps making it
@@fivex4756 Five if that load continues in the line up it will be under Federals oversight.
Body taper was a result of African hunting ....slightly overpressure rounds are less likey to stick in the chamber and marginally easier to feed. Also the origin of the belted magnums .....all about headspace and proper operation in adverse conditions.
And easy ejection in hot conditions while an angry beastie is charging right at you. Bolt-action or double, if you need that third-round at muzzle-to-muzzle's length...
Why do many hunters hate on the 270 but seem to love the 6.5. In every measurement within 400 yards the 270 is best.
I love my 270 & don’t have a need for 6.5
I like my 270, but the usable bullet selection and bc available are limited with the 1:10 twist hence the reason I've considered the 6.5 prc because I can use better bc bullets at the same speed or faster with better down range energy.
@@jwjenkins421 the numbers I saw, the 270 had better velocity and energy inside of 500 yards.
Because they are kidding themselves about how far away they are shooting game. 270 simply has a larger powder reservoir and as such can push 150's a good bit faster than a CM and more mass going faster equals more energy. The BC advantage comparing a 150 gr 270 vs a 140 gr 6.5 CM will never be a factor when talking about hunting. By the time the 6.5 starts pulling ahead you are out past effective ranges for either cartridge in terms of hunting.
@@K-bob_45 I agree that's why I bought the 270 instead of the creedmore. The 6.5 precision rifle cartridge (prc) by hornady has an almost identical powder capacity to the 270 with a faster twist barrel. So you get better bc bullets starting at the same speed or faster than the 270 with about the same or less felt recoil.
1:09:47
Same question here.
Is it not practical to load the primary 'magazine' with the close range profile ammunition, but have a secondary magaize, or at least a few cartridges, that can be cycled into the rifle, with that long range profile?
What about the 6.5 Grendel for eastern hunting where shots are typically closer than out west? Howa makes a nifty little mini action Grendel I’m curious about.
Cz makes one in grendel aswell
The Grendel has plenty of velocity with 120 grain bullets to take deer to 250 yards/ meters.
I own a AR chambered in 6.5 Grendel with an 18" barrel that I would like to shoot 800 yards
9:04 an Emperor’s New Groove Reference… this is why Ryan is the best
Love my 6.5 PRC. About the best long range prairie cartridge. Because sometimes you can't sneak in closer.
Was hoping for a short discussion on 6.5 Grendel and the AR-15 platform.
We'll have some more stuff on the grendel family later!
Yes! 6.5 Grendel is a small light yet powerful cartridge.
Same!
The conversation concerning the 6.5 caliber was very informative, but there one 6.5 that was left of the list, that was the 6.5 Remington Magnum.
They mentioned it
Y'all should do an episode about the etymology of calibers with Ryan. Where does ackley come from, why is there a "-300" on 6.5-300, what does a "-06" mean is a 30-06 and 25-06, why are some Creedmore, Creed, etc. Are Creedmore rounds from the same designer, team, or have the same traits, etc? Ackley, AI, etc? These are example and I know some of them but not all.
Good idea! Thanks for listening!
Yeah you could do that for all the dumbasses out there.
9:28 The way it was explained to me and I have done some research on this, is that with a traditional "Boat Tail" design, as the projectile exits the crown of the muzzle, the gasses blow out in front of the bullet which now has to fly through that turbulent air. I think it has less to with whats happening in the pipe than when it exits the pipe. Thats what causes potential inaccuracy in most Boat tail designs as they exit the crown, IF your crown is undamaged. Thats a whole other discussion. The flat base bullets, when they exit..... the gasses behind it form into a ring around the bullet and away from it. If you want the best of both worlds High B.C. and accurate, try a rebated boat tail. It bassically does the same thing to the gasses as a flat base but retains a high ballistic coefficient. I use Alco Bullets and with the right hand loads I have shot quarter MOA groups with them through my 7mm Rem Mag. Happy shooting!
P.S. Nothing beats the B.C's of a .284 (7mm) technically 7.2mm, until you get into the .400's....lol!
A few items with misinformation. 6.5 Sherman Shortmag isn’t on the WSM case. It’s based off of the SAUM case. But I get where his confusion comes from. They seem to purposely avoid talking about it. But also. The wsm case and the SAUM case have the same diameter. He says the SAUM case is short and narrower. It’s only shorter. I do like how there is one guy who has a whole wealth of knowledge who talks. And one guy who knows next to nothing and asks the most basic questions to let the layman catch up.
My man with the neck knowledge
6.5x55 is an AWESOME deer cartridge.
Love to hear what you think of the .277 sig,7 prc and old faithfull 7mm rem mag along with maybe the 6.8 western. Thanks
I just picked up a 6.5 PRC for hunting deer and the occasional elk or moose. The PRC carries more than enough energy and velocity for a monolithic copper bullet to perform out well past 500 yds (my personal limit), but with less recoil and less drop than the 300 win mag and 30-06 I used to carry.
The 6.5 PRC is now extremely popular even in Europe and Asia even in Kazakhstan and Tajikistan.
Amazing hunting cartridge.
Saw some discussions about flat vs boat-tail and one additional reason for the increased accuracy in flat based bullets are how the pressure wave interacts (or dont) with the bullet outside the barrel. You could see on high speed photography that the flat base bullet was outside the pressure wave, where as the boat tail bullet could intersect with the pressure just outside (couple inces) the barrel.
I really agree with having a bullet construction that will hold together and penetrate. I shot a cow elk with my 270 Winchester at 465 yards 127 grain leighigh defense controlled chaos. The first bullet destroyed the humerus and deflected through the lungs and liver, and lodged in a very full stomach. The second bullet was only 1.5 inches from the first, and it blew through everything. I've really considered the 6.5 prc but the ballistics are are so similar to my 270 at hunting ranges
I agree. Unless you plan to do PRS competition or the like, the 270 hunts just fine.
Interesting discussion, 2 years later we have the SIG .277 Fury coming up operating at 80,000 psi in the Cross rifle. Wanna have some fun ? I bought a 270 Savage Axis for a ham sandwich and rebarreled it to 6.5CM with a Shaw 26" tube. With that long action you can seat those 143 ELDX's all the way out and put in a little extra powder. The rifle runs great, haven't reached it's limit yet. I call it my Poor Man's 6.5 PRC. As for bullet construction I started out hunting with a 270 and after penciling my first 2 deer I switched to a SMLE in 303 Brit I had filled with Remington Core-Lokt and had great success. After many years of reloading and National Match shooting I drug out that old 270 and loaded it with a starting charge of powder and Nosler 130gr. Ballistic Tip bullets because I heard they mushroomed easily. Low and behold that rifle turned into my favorite dropping deer in their tracks. Enough oomph to punch a shoulder and have massive internal damage, never had an animal travel more than 15 yards. In the years since I've loaded many 308 and 30/06 rounds for friends using the 125gr. Nosler bullets with reduced charges and the same result. The shots were inside 200 yards with most just over 100 so there is that. Would I use it in National Match, I did on the 100 and 200 yard line, at 300 and 600 I switched up to 165 SMK for the same reasons people use the 143's in the Creedmoor. For many people it's very hard for them to believe that a slower moving bullet could have better performance on a critter, wound ballistics. As for the 6.5CM, Deer don't take a lot of killing and with both my son and daughter along with myself hunting with it over the last 3 seasons I've seen fantastic results even with the 143's to the point that IMHO it just might be a near perfect deer rifle and doing it all with 38-40gr. of powder and very low recoil as a result.
Pausing before watching. I'm looking at a Christensen Arms MPR in 6.5PRC
It's only offered in a 24" barrel. Being that I want to strictly punch paper for right now, I wanted at least a 26" barrel for accuracy. Am I making a bad choice? Should I change calibers? I got the ammo before the gun.... Could always sell it. I'm not a hunter, never was.
I could always go custom. Just looking for some feedback from people who have used 6.5prc has a paper punching round
If you want to be competitive at the farthest distances you will need a custom precision barrel. That said I have seen stock 24" give more velocity than a 26 due to tighter tolerance . You did not mention if you will be hand loading your ammo going forward or just shooting factory. that will determine how long you can go and twist
Barrel length will not help you with accuracy. In fact, many shooters have found that a shorter barrel can be more accurate. Longer barrels will give you more velocity. About 25 fps per inch of barrel. Shrink your 26 down to 20 and you'll give up 150 fps, but you'll have a stiffer barrel. It's all about balancing your options to get the result you want.
Just recently found this channel, love it! Thanks Vortex!
Right on - thanks for tuning in!
The impression I get is 6.5 Creedmoor for precision target work, 7mm RemMag for long-range hunting, .30-06 for short-range to medium hunting.
The projectiles are the factor here more so than the cartridges themselves. 7RM and 30-06 aren't that far apart if you are talking about loading modern bullets in both and loading the 30-06 up until you see pressure like most do now.
30-06 will kill any north American game. I grew up shooting that cartridge. We shot everything from mule deer to big Yukon moose with 180 gr
Target rounds are just more accurate hunting rounds. Like the 6.5 PRC started off as a target round and it flat kills out to 750 in my experience
Inherant accuracy is normally talking about consistency........short powder colums are more likely to ignite fully .....so theoretical is is a short fat case. Shoulder angle is believed to affect case stretch and life. ....neck length affects bullet length that can be seated without losing powder space ...........now throw in things like bolt face for a particular platform as well as action/magazine length. Many case are "created" to fill other particular needs....not just to compare them to existing rounds.
I agree and I add They barely touched on the longer throat length for the longer bullets seated farther out is a big part of the newer designs
The 6.5x55 AI is actually the 6.5x55 BJAI, Ackley never messed with the Swede but Bob Jordan applied his formula to the case and created the BJAI case. If I'd known of this cartridge at the time I built my Swede I'd have opted for the Ackleyized version. Think 6.5-284 w/o the need to change your feed rails to accommodate the fat cartridge and rebated rim.
Bucket list
Chil and talk guns all day with these dudes
Looking at getting a 6.5 for a do it all rifle, prs and hunting deer. Would love if you did an in depth on 6.5 x 55 swede as they are widely available here in Europe and plenty of 2nd hand options. Very confused how It compares to a creedmoor.
Go 6.5 PRC…awesome ballistics for LR or hunting…only if you reload!
The problem with ALL of these fat for bore cartridges is that velocity gains always come at a price. The greater the ratio of case width to bore, especially on longer cases, is that barrel life is compromised. A6.5 CM is good for 1500 to 2000 rounds compared with 10,000 for a 308. The 6.5 PrC has likely lower barrel life than a CM.
Throat erosion tends to be accelerated on fat for bore loadings partly due to the comparatively higher pressures these run at and partly as they share similar higher rate burning powders compared with the same calibre in a thinner case diameter.
6.5 CM isn’t too bad of a compromise especially loaded moderately. It’s been the fastest selling cal in the UK for the past few years and will reliably take all UK deer species but the point about the right bullet matters a lot. Even the SST works well on big deer if used several hundred yards out but might not be best used under 100yds! This cal offers great loadings for vermin control too. It, the 308 and the 223 are probably the UK’s most popular calibres for good reason.
6.5 Swede is definitely the mainstay in Europe. I prefer the .264 Win Mag, but they don’t make much ammo for it anymore. If you handload though, .264 win mag is great! A lot more energy and terminal effect down range without adding too much kick in the shoulder. Great cartridge.
I think I have enough points to draw a Hodag tag next year. Will the 6.5 BitchCat be available by then and if so would this be an adequate cartridge selection?
Should be available by next year. The Hodag is notoriously durable, but even its tough hide and bone structure shouldn't be a match for the BitchCat
Hi guys, Thanks for this. I found the information very helpful. I mean recoil..distance.cost of ammo...and was the barnes a solid copper tipped? thanks, looks like I am going to add this round to the list
6.5 grendel is a beast as well.
Would love to see a podcast video on the 30-06. I know there's been million articles and videos on the cartridge but I just like how indepth the conversation gets on the full episodes podcasts. Thanks much
We love the 30-06! In fact, we actually did one of these 10 minute talks on it in our 100th episode - you can go back and check it out :)
The -06 is like Elizabeth Hurley if she was American. Old but oh so hot! Everything you need and more.
260 Remington shines.
Issue with the tapers and angles I think is overlooked. On the actual production manufacturing side. Taper helps free the case from the tooling and more taper more gradual edges and contours prevent tool and die wear. When you have tooling with parallel sides low taper etc you have much higher shear along the tooling and you get wear. You can blow out taper and steepen the case on hand loading. The occasional semi stuck case in a die? NBD .01% more wear on the tooling at the ammo factory? Same increase in stickage on the assembly line? Big ass deal.
This was fun to listen to. It’s interesting though that so much of the conversation was around ballistics: BC, velocity, sectional density. Those are vitally important, but it took almost an hour to get to some of the factors that really make or break a cartridge in the market. Will it fit in XXX magazine? Can I use the same bolt face as .308 Winchester or 5.56 NATO? Can I make a short action rifle for this cartridge? Can I find cases or easily reshape a case that is ubiquitous? What is the shooting experience like? (.270 vs. 45-70 for example). Will it feed reliably and how many can I get in a “standard” magazine?
The discussion very briefly touched on market introduction but that is critical. The 6.5 Grendel is arguably a superb cartridge, but Alexander Arms more or less wrote the book on how *not* to gain market acceptance. These guys mention how Hornady got behind 6.5 Creedmoor. Their marketing expertise and market penetration made a HUGE difference. Get SAAMI specs put there. Make factory ammo available. Put the data in your load book that virtually every handloader keeps a copy of. Make a variety of bullets. And a whole lot more.
I believe that 8.6 Blackout may eclipse 300 Blackout in a short period of time. Why? First off it’s a really interesting cartridge in terms of subsonic performance. If you can’t go fast, go heavy. It fits any action and magazine that takes .308 Winchester and uses the same bolt face. 6.5 Creedmoor is the best parent case but apparently you can use 308 cases. Faxon is making barrels for 308-style ARs *and* bolt action rifles. Pacific Tool & Gauge makes reamers and headspace gauges - not on a custom basis but as standard offerings. And Hornady is pushing it with their marketing program. Oh and Q isn’t trying to keep it proprietary.
Holy information overload, keep em coming!
Impressed you guys understand the intricacies/functioning of the flintlock.
Sectional density has to do with bullet weight and bullet diameter only. The equation is Sectional Density = (BulletMass (in grains) ÷ 7000) ÷ BulletDiameter². For example, let's use a 180 grain .308 bullet. SD = (180÷7000)÷0.308² = (0.0257)÷0.0949 = 0.271. The sectional density is 0.271. Doesn't matter if a bullet is lead, copper, unobtanium, or whatever for sectional density purposes, only the mass and frontal diameter. The higher the SD, the "denser" the bullet (relative to its cross section).
A higher SD bullet will penetrate deeper all things being equal. We can look at a 9mm bullet for an example. A 124 grain .355" bullet has an SD of .141. A 9mm that doesn't expand can be expected to penetrate clean through a human torso sized target. Now, let's say that one bullet was a hollowpoint that didn't expand and got a full pass-through on the target. The shooter shot again (same gun, same ammo, even the same muzzle velocity), but this time the bullet expanded to .650" when it hit the target. When the bullet expanded from .355" to .650", the sectional density went from .141 to .042, which partially helps explain why that expanded bullet did not pass-through the target, but instead stopped inside the target.
The way you can sort of think of it if you know about Ballistic Coefficient (BC) and not SD is that SD is to terminal ballistics what BC is to external ballistics.
If possible, I'd love a 10 minute episode on the .270 Winchester that goes longer than 10 min. I love that caliber. O'Connor and Keith may have hated each other, but the cartridges they each are best known for promoting are my two favorites, the .270 Winchester and a .44 Magnum.
My theory is that a boat tail vs flat base interaction at the muzzle accounts for a lot of differences you may or may not experience in accuracy. I shoot a lot of cast bullets and the thing to check for is a well formed base with uniform sprue cut. A few wrinkles in the nose don't really matter but if the base has any flaws that's a flyer for sure. The gasses come out much faster than the bullet and they impinge on the base with tremendous force. Any irregularity will produce torque. This is why most FMJs kind of suck IMHO. Their bases are very irregular. This is also why you really don't want to ding up the crown of the muzzle.
Great video, just go back a few more years to 1876 to the 45-75 win black powder bottle neck cartridge.
I own a .264 WM with a 1:9 twist and shooting the 140 Core Lot for Elk under 150 yards. I have been testing high velocity impacts with also Speer Gold Dot 140 because it's also bonded and short enough to stabilize with surprising results. Speer Impact bullets in 6.5 are about to hit the market that have .534 BC and are just as long as the Nosler Partition 140 gr. I don't want to change caliber's for now so my question is what bullet would you guys recommend for both close range and long range impacts for a 1:9 twist?
is there a better cartridge than 6.5creedmoor that's widely available in an AR-10 platform? I love the idea of getting a hot, fast shooting 6.5 PRC or something but I know those bigger rounds have trouble fitting in AR-10 actions and mags.
The top 5 flattest-shooting popular rifle cartridge at 1,000 yards is #1 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum, followed by the .26 Nosler, the .28 Nosler, the .22 Creedmoor, and the 6.5 Weatherby RPM. These cartridges all drop less than 255″ at 1,000 yards. This data comes from another U Tube channel. If you search "Flattest shooting cartridges ever" by Backfire. #6-10 is 7mm Weatherby Magnum, .264 Winchester Magnum, 6.5 PRC, 7 STW,. 30-378 Weatherby Magnum
26 Nosler is pretty flat shooting for sure. I think I like the idea of 6.5's more than I actually like them. I think alot of ammo companies try to re-invent the wheel to much as a marketing tool. I'll stick with my crusty ol' 7mm Rem Mag. With hand loads I can make it shoot flatter than a 26 Nosler and a 300 Win Mag with factory ammo. With the right bullet. In the case of a current hand load I'm working up, 5.4 Mil's at a 1000😁 I absolutely love your pod cast, tons of great info. Kind of shocked that it's not more popular on RUclips. Probably algorithms fudging the numbers.
We appreciate you tuning in, my friend! Thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation! :)
If you ever have any other topics you'd like us to explore, definitely let us know!
I have to take an aspirin now because my head is so full of things I won’t remember but I will not forget the 6.5 Bitch cat! I love you guys!!
You would want to use a picture of a wolverine ripping a grizzly a new one in your marketing strategy. Small yet wildly powerful!
Ryan, What ammo would you shoot out of a TC 30 out of a Thompson Center pro Hunter. I currently shoot Hornady SST 165 grain. I mostly hunt deer. Also could you do a talk on the TC 30 cartridge.
One thing people don’t usually touch on when it comes to round popularity is marketability of the name of the cartridge. When you add a descriptor at the end of a round that sounds familiar, people tend to be less intimidated by it. Cartridges with Winchester in the name are going to feel more approachable than something with “Swede” or “weatherby”
Ryan, you promote the shoulder shot method, but most hunters I know believe the behind the shoulder shot that goes in and damages lungs is best. I think the shoulder shot is best too, but most shooters disagree. Any thoughts.
Anyone else just amazed at this guys knowledge base?
he likes guns .aka gun nut!!!!
Thanks much for the conversation.
While I am not enamoured with the 6.5 Creedmoor, it is the only round available to me at the moment in a particular take down rifle that I actually need, not want. So I am trying hard to gain some confidence in the round, at least on paper (hunting at no more than 400 yds).
But I am concerned about a rather strongly worded criticism by a senior member of the tribe that this cartridge suffers in various degrees and in factory iteration, from inconsistent case length (of I understood him correctly), resulting in a certain and varying rate of loading failure. Very unsettling!
Does this “observation” resonate with you?
Thank you.
Yes, I have had that problem with some Winchester brand loads
29:08 I shoot my 7mm Rem Mag all day. Muzzle breaks from Witt Machine & tool company work wonders. If I'm Reloading ammo just for plinking or working on my marksmanship, it cost me $12.60 that shoots better than factory. If I'm loading for competition or match grade ammunition it costs me about $33.40. Cheap range ammo from PPU or Reminton is between $35.00 and $40.00. I can find components for 7mm Rem Mag all over the world, it's not as popular as the 6.5 creed in North Ameroca and I like that because again I can get compnents for it. I work at a reloading store and I can tell you personally we haven't had 6.5 creed brass in quite some time because demand for it is so high and ammo companies are using it for their factory ammo. They make more money off of a box of live ammo than they do components. To be fair, I'm not adding the cost of brass or primers because I have so much of it and with the brass you have to devide the cost of brass by how many times you reload it. The primers I'm using are free and I have enough to last this barrel, into the next. Word of advice. KEEP YOUR BRASS.
I like what Hornady was trying accomplish with the 6.5 PRC. However, back in 2017 Hornady has video of George Gardner on their channel stating that the 6.5 PRC is the best option to run high BC bullets in a short action. I feel that Hornady rushed this cartridge to market without looking at the possibility of future bullets such as the 156gr Bergers or Hornady's own 153gr A-tip. These heavy bullets need to be seated deep in the 6.5 PRC case to be magazine fed in a short action. I would like to see Hornady adopt some of the 6.5 Sherman Short cartridges. These cartridges are much more well suited for a short action. I seen load data on 6.5 SST that gets at a 156gr Berger to 3020fps and the 147gr ELD-M to 3100fps. While the Sherman cartridges have no SAAMI standard, I think they could made to SAAMI standards and run around 60-65ksi. Hornady should definitely consider looking at these cartridges.
Regarding your comment about your Weatherby I feel the same way about my 300RUM
Backing up a trailer should be a requirement to work at Vortex!
A buddy of mine swears that the 6.5x55mm Swede reloaded a little on the hot side topped with the 140 gr. Nosler Partition or Accubond is ideal for game up to and including moose and bear
Y’all have info on the 6mm ARC?
I didn’t hear the 264 Winchester magnum fantastic cartridge,6.5 Remington magnum and 6.5 Swedish another excellent cartridge
Great discussion. Just developed a load for my new-to-me 6.5-300 Wby, it’s a 127 gr LRX @ 3400 fps. I kid you not it kicks like a .300 Win Mag without the brake. Excited to see how it handles game this season. At some point I’d like a rifle in a more reasonable 6.5mm cartridge for the range.
6.5 PRC shoots and hits like a 7mag…recoil like a .243 Remington.
6.5 AAR (all around rifle) aka 6.5x257 Roberts Ackley Improved was a commercial cartridge that is close but a squish bigger than 6.5x55 Swede AI.
Good one guys. 👍
I'm using the 100 grain ttsx from barnes in my 6.5 creedmoor for deer and hogs out here in California.
Take a look at the European rounds - there is the most popular Austrian caliber 6.5x57, 6.5x65 and the very fast 6.5x68 :)
What about 6.5 Grendel?
Another aspect that I think was just touched upon with the newer cartridges , the Creedmoors , some others, and particularly the PRCs is they have longer throats for the longer bullets seated farther out. That keeps the bullet out of the powder space and helps keep the bullet aligned.. I have found the PRCs difficult with shorter bullets.
The 6.5 Creedmoor is a great round as long as you’re using Nosler partitions or some type of bonded bullet for hunting.
And why is that?
What powder is Ryan using with the Barnes LRX bullets in his 6.5CM to get loads accurately shooting almost 3000fps?
6.5 creedmoor was just officially adopted by American SOCOM. So it seems like it is here to stay. I’ve heard they are even chambering machine guns in 6.5 creed
Please do 338 Lapua next!
Will add it to our list!!
Just buy a .264 Win Mag. Winchester designed it as the Ultimate Western Deer & Antelope Cartridge. I can tell you having shot one since 1982 it has never let me down. If you Reload it will serve you well as Winchester envisioned. Anything larger in case capacity has diminishing returns. What make a accurate rifle the 3 B’s. Barrel Bullet and bedding. There is some minor improvements in cases you will never see it in the hunting fields, Bench Rest Rifles yes.
The Swedes did it right! They developed the 6.5x55 in 1892. Norway went with the Krag rifle in 6.5x55. Then Sweden went with the Mauser rifle, they had two conditions that Mauser had to meet. One, the rifle must be made in the 6.5x55. Two, the rifle must be made with Swedish steel. During production of the rifles in Germany, Sweden shipped their steel to the Mauser plant in Germany with advisors to make sure that they were using the Swedish steel. The rifles were proof tested up to 75,000 psi. They are the strongest pre 98 Mauser actions.
I am a new hunter and trying to understand the all copper bullets . So they don't have long range energy but they do have good velocity . With the 6.5 use in hunting should a hunter just look at velocity for expansion or does the downrange energy still matter ?
Velocity for expansion matters, but it needs to not come apart, and ideally you want as much energy dumped before it exits. Its a balance. Energy does not do much good if it just punches through with no expansion.
The energy of a bullet is just a function of the velocity, and the energy doesn't really mean anything when it comes to hunting. Make sure you're shooting a bullet with adequate sectional density for the game you're hunting, and then find out at what range will the bullet run of adequate velocity to fully expand AND pass completely through the animal. As a beginning hunter, I recommend that you limit yourself to 200 yards anyway, unless you're shooting at varmints.
There's another RUclips'r called gunblue490. He has some really good hunting vids. Check out one called "How to select hunting bullets".
6.5x55 adopted by Swedish military 1894
For Marks example wanting a bullet to shoot 20yds to 600yds , I would take 2 mags with both long range high bc bullets and 1 with shorter range heavier core bullet for shorter range. Sight in and set up for the long range bullet and see what the offset is for the short range and know it at a few distances. 20 -300yds.
Great watch/listen. Keep up the great work!
Thank you!
7mm08 ASAP
I want one but can't find the ammo very many places
I have been shooting the 260 for years your kids and I was just catching on
Been building a mini arsenal the past 16 months... yet haven't pulled the trigger on a 6.5... yet :)
I'll get there soon though... I was thinking about the 6.5 PRC
I decided to try a 6.5 PRC about 6 months ago to get a bit more power . First box of factory 147 shot 1/4 - 3/8 moa off bipod and my shoulder. Truing the factory or handloading it easily stays under 1/4 moa. It was developed to be sweet spot for PRS competition and I think it certainly has potential to be a great all around
I would love to hear more about the .264 win mag pulling up fps stats it’s faster than a 6.5 PRC so I feel like it’s no slump
Only negative to the .264 magnum is the tendency to burn out barrels quickly.The PRC doesn’t. Just below the threshold of being a barrel burner.
This episode is beautiful. Thank you 🙏🏽
Don't forget the venerable 6.5 Grendel.
Was it Alexander Arms that developed the 6.5 Grendel? It doesn’t matter how good a cartridge is if you screw up by the numbers with your business model. Hornady got behind the 6.5 Creedmoor. They know how to market a cartridge and have the market share and presence to make it happen.
The 6.5 CM in Hornady 120 grain ELD seems to be very effective in all my rifles chambered in such.
What I would like to see is a discussion of small game loads for classic battle rifles.