No 6mm Remington or 240 Weatherby? A cartridge comparison by caliber seems informative. Why would anyone want a cartridge like 6.5 grendel or 6.8 spc? Can't even load heavy for caliber bullets and poor velocity...
@@chadillac95 the 6mm Remington has a 1 in 9 twist while the 243 Winchester only has a 1 in 10 twist, meaning the 243 is limited to 100 grain bullet while the 6mm Remington can shot heavier bullets, not to mention an extra 100 fps for the 6mm Remington. Yeah compare a 6 arc to the 6mm Remington. The 240 Weatherby is the only one you can call a magnum.
Many years ago when I was deciding between a 30-06 and a 308, I went with the 308 because it was good enough for what I was planning to use it for (White Tail, and ferral hogs). The 308 generally has a shorter barrel and overall length and a lighter weight with a shorter bolt-throw. Surplus military ammo was still readily available at the time and the 308 had a better selection of reloading components. It also made sense to me to go with the 308 because I was planning to buy an AR10. I knew the 30-06 had better ballistics but the delta wasn't significant enough for me to go with it considering all of the other advantages of the 308.
308 is a great deer and pig cartridge. I have 2 - 30-06s now but hunted with a 308 for yeas now I use the 708 and 243 in my short action rifles both sons of the 308. but I never felt under gunned with my old 308. I actually took one of my longest shots with it and dropped a good buck at 505 yards
7mm-08 vs 308. Sectional density vs frontal area. Both in temporary wound channel and depth of penetration! Similar cartridges with same action length should make for a very interesting debate!
Ryan has broken the code for the 308, 130grain Barnes cooking over 3000 fps. It is the best performing compromise for general hunting in North America.
30-06 because it is everything all the other cartridges wish they were. 😊 However, I would say I understand why you did versatility they way you did. However, the old 06 is what more versatile than the 308. I never felt under or over gunned from VA to AK.
Would love to see 30-30 on of these tests. Mostly because I wanna see some science of it. I know it will lose on so many levels. But it’s one of my favorite cartridges.
I have taken hogs out to 270 yards with my 30-30 using 150 grain winchester superx. I'm good out to 300 yards using hornady leverevolution, though I've never been presented with a set that far out.
It would only lose out in the minds of doofuses who think you need 3000 ft lbs of energy to kill a 125lb whitetail at 2000 yards. If they were honest most hunters that buy all these alphabet soup magnums would admit they don't hunt hard enough to find the giant trophy animals and aren't good enough shots to make a kill over 150 yards anyway. A plain old 30-06 will drop anything in North America without much fuss. A 35 Whelen can go to Africa and deal with anything short of Cape Buffalo and Pachyderms. 45-70 will even put Dumbo on the ground with the right ammo. All 3 are over a century old and don't require magnum sized actions. Most modern ammo is created for a military requirement, as a marketing ploy, or to exploit loopholes in shooting games.
After watching the earlier video over the weekend, I thought it would be a great idea to compare the various brands of lead free ammo such as TTSX, CX, Naturals, Sako's Blade, Nosler's E-Tip, Berger, etc. :)
The only thing I would add is: For me it was not a 308 or 30-06 question. I got both. Every mechanic has more than one tool in his tool box and I feel the same way about the 308 and 30-06. My 308 is light weight Tikka with a 20" bbl and is GREAT for thick timber hunting where shots are less than a 150 yards. My 30-06 is heavier and has a longer barrel and better for shots in the 250-400 yard range. Get them both.
Biggest 308 advantage... affordable options in every rifle platform exist in the 308. I can buy a bolt gun, AR 10, lever gun and a BPR in 308 on the same trip to the gun shop.
@@craigneeley8414Browning and Henry have lever action rifles chambered in 308 that have a dropout magazine, not tube fed. You can run whatever bullets you want in those guns. I'm not even aware of any factory lever action rifle chambered in 308 Winchester that ever came just tube fed.
@craigneeley8414 no, BLR and Henry Long ranger are the most popular 308 lever guns. Mag fed. Don't believe any tube 308 levers exist. But yes, you are correct with most calibers like 30-30.
I'm loving the comparison between calibers, and you have been focusing on factory loads......I would love to see 30-06 and .308 with hand loads....my experience the 30-06 has the most to gain when it comes to hand loads. .would love to hear your thoughts.....
We think there is a lot to gain from just hand loading in general as you typically see better results with S/D's and group size when compared to factory loads. Will have to see if Muck is down for some reloading on some calibers. Stay tuned!
@@timtimm9199 165-168 seems to be the sweet spot for 30-06 you can get a relatively high BC bullet traveling at 3000 fps with hand loads. 308 can’t touch that.
30-06 with 200gr Partitions @2600 for the win!! Flys flatter than you expect, excellent expansion for lighter big game also with the horsepower for large game. Thanks for the excellent breakdown as usual!
I have found that penetration is dependent on speed and distance. I primarily hunt with my 308 loaded with a 165 interlock at 2800 fps. I shot a giant mule deer at 286 yards and that bullet went right through that large mule. I have also shot a slightly smaller one at 38yards that the bullet didn’t exit.
5.56x45, .308(with a stubby barrel and under 5 lbs), some magnum class cartridge. All North American hunting encounters are now covered, but I see no reason not to own two dozen more niche cartridges. 😂
Love the 06 and always will. A few years back I got the hankering for another rifle. After much research I purchased a 7mm/08 and have never looked back.
I’d like to suggest to revise the comparison to segment for application/game size, and do the scoring on a 5 point scale. It’s tough to say that .308 outright beats .30-06 in a category like accessibility, whereas it’s more like .308 is a 5/5 and .30-06 is 4.5/5. Absolutely love this content…Keep it going!!!
I'd go with .308 for your use case. 6.5CM is easier to shoot at a range of 600 yards, though. One issue I have here is that I don't believe 308 has been realistically represented with the anemic mv presented in the 150gr category. 2820fps mv is standard for .308 150gr. IIRC, they referenced 26xx fps for their 150gr powershok. That's 180gr velocities.
Another great episode. I've been enjoying this series. I would like to see 7mm-08 vs 308. Because as far as I can tell 308 is the most prolific round in the USA so is a spin off better?
I am a huge fan of 308... this is realistically because of length and weight of the rifles. 308 excels in 16-18" barrels and carrying a compact 308 in the woods of NW PA is much nicer than a 06...
Over the ammo shortage of the last few seasons. I found myself recommending the 308 & 350 Legend to young hunters looking for a new rifle. With the 308 being the better overall caliber for just about anything in the lower 48. You could find ammo for either, everywhere.
@@Sandz_ Same here. Oldest daughter took her first buck this last season with the 350 Legend. 11 pointer. She did her part and that Win 150gr XP did it's job .
This got me thinking. Since we have a very controlled environment and test media. Energy is the ability to do work. In this case the work would be displacing gel. So using the energy at impact, the diameter of the expanded bullet, and the depth of penetration, we can approximate how much material was displaced between the two rounds and the energy it took to do so. i.e. the .308 165 copper, hit the block with 2332 ft-lbs of energy, penetrated 33.625" with a diameter of .585 resulting in 9.0378in^3 of gel displacement, or 258 ft-lbs of energy per in^3 of gel. the results for the 30-06 are 262 ft-lbs of energy. 1.54% difference. Remarkably similar. Extrapolating for a 7mm mag with 150gr trophy copper, 2673 ft-lbs of energy, expanded to .507" diameter would displace 10.2808 in^3 of gel and penetrate appx 51" of gel. Anyone care to validate?
My first deer rifle was a Remington 700 in 30-06. I traded to 308 for less recoil with on average only a 100 fps loss. Inside 500 yards that is negligible. Also in your cartridge talks you have specified "Factory ammo", which some people may have missed. I can reload 308 up to 30-06 velocities and I can download the latter down to 308 recoil. Unless you reload you can not realize the full potential of any cartridge, however, for most applications factory ammo is good enough.
I haven't looked at my reloading manual in a while for 308 but I always liked the 30-06 for it's versatility for very light for varmints to big game if you look back in the day 20s and thirties they were using 30-06 to take down elephants and cape Buffalo !!
@@craigneeley8414 yes, Ron Spomer talks about a guy who took like 11 elephant with 7x57 mauser. I think the last name was Bell. I remember shooting the 30-06 accelerators at 4000 fps back in the 80s but the weren't very accurate.
@@craigneeley8414 also the 30-06 does much better with the 200 and 220 grain bullets because of the extra powder capacity, however, your shoulder will pay the price. My 338 WM has a break on it and if I bought a 30-06 or 300 WM today they would have breaks. I don't like recoil over 15 to 20 pounds and 7 to 10 is even better.
Shot placement is key to any shot on a animal. Same for bow or gun. Some think certain broadheads even a half ass shot will kill. Some think the same with big guns. That is wrong very wrong. Shot placement is most important. No matter what you are shooting or shooting at. Anyone that doesn't know or believe that. Shouldn't be shooting or hunting. PERIOD!
The video content and information discussed is what keeps me coming back for more. I Really enjoy this new twist format, which is both entertaining and informative. I to enjoy seeing the different bullets perform in the gel blocks, both lead cup/core and monometals.
Both of these cartridges are just fine, but I think for the average person (especially out here in the south east) the 308 is a superior choice. Even during the ammo shortages I’ve always been able to go to a local sporting goods store and find 308. At my local Walmart during the shortage there were 4 loads of 308 to the 1 of 30-06 and the 1 of 6.5creed. 308 can do 90 percent of what the 30-06 can do, and for someone who is very seldom going to hunt an animal bigger than an elk or moose the 308 is more than enough.
I think what you’re saying is true but I do think it’s also regional. At my local sporting goods stores and Walmarts they always have a good variety of both 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor. There was a time when 30-06 used to fill the case and that isn’t the situation anymore, even after the shortage. My Walmart always has a decent selection of 270 as well. Now, that said, I know the sporting goods manager of my Walmart and he is very pro 2A and prides himself on keeping a good selection of firearms and ammo, so maybe he knows the market and tries a little harder than other stores? Hard to say, but that’s just my personal observation from where I live in central Pennsylvania.
Excellent discussion as always (except giving .308 a point for ammo accessibility). MUZZLE BRAKES can be outstanding. Several years ago I had my smith and Wesson branded Howa 1500 .30-'06 I got in 1983 refinished at Tucson's awesome Lawson's custom rifle maker and gunsmith. Stock refinished, bolt jeweled, and their custom muzzle brake added and I gave the rifle to my then wispy 13 year old son. With the brake - and boy you must wear hearing protection - it shoots like a .243 or .223. Huge difference. .308 and -'06 are truly all but identical - with the "but" giving the '06 an average 150 fps advantage in MV and hence energy. Ought six wins every day.
Never heard of ~60-70% reduction in recoil from a brake. He must be one heck of a gunsmith. On Google, someone swears the brake they bought from Lawson 3 years ago took their .300 WSM down to .243 recoil levels. That's ~66% recoil reduction - incredible! I'm going to give them a call - if their brake can take my .308's recoil down to .300 blackout levels, I'd pay $1000.
Within the initial video, I appreciated that is wasn’t a definitive statement about which was best overall under all circumstances. I understood it was not necessarily an apple to apples comparison so the 150 to 180 grain weights (because these are some commonly used) with similar bullet types was an understandable comparison. I liked that you showed several bullet types, power shock and Cooper. In the past I was a 30-06 fanatic, I have since become more aware of shootablity (recoil and Carry weight)and economy/availability of shootablity. I think many of us are emotionally invested in which rifle and bullet that we prefer. I am including in that camp, so I prefer 30-06 however I shoot and hunt with 308 win more often. When I recommend a rifle to a new shooter/hunter it is more often a 308 win, over 30-06 and definitely 6.5 CM. I admit my bias against 6.5CM is emotional. Am I a hypocrite?
Maybe a bit of a hypocrite, but I think if you actually talk to people about the cartridges and explain why you don't like one over another then it's not a huge deal. Don't try to make people shoot your favorite cartridge, get them to understand why you may pick one over another. I can't stand the 06, but my best friend was seriously considering it for his 1st deer rifle. He ended up going 270 win, but I explained to him the versatility of the 06 vs the trajectory of something like the 270. He did his own research and realized he doesn't need anything more than a 270 for shooting deer out to 300yds, and the added versatility of the 06 wouldn't suit him as well as the lower recoil and flatter trajectories of the 270 (typically)
🤠 Absolutely! 😁👍 Both in Expansion and Penetration! But, all the other bullets have their place too! If you are hunting thin skinned game, like antelope, then the cup and core bullet is the best choice (because it will expand immediately and blow the lungs apart - which antelope have proportionally bigger ones than other animals)! Rember Ryan's failure with the 300 Weatherby Magnum? It wasn't because it didn't have enough energy, it was because of improper bullet selection for the task at hand! 😭 For Bears, where you are shooting them in the head at close range, Monolithic Solids are the best choice! 🐻 Others are for cheap target practice or competition shooting! But, your right, Bonded Bullets provide the "Best Balance" of both, in a Hunting Senario! 🤑
They all kill deer. To be fair this was more of an investigation into cartridges not bullets. Bonded will work great copper is well sufficient for most applications bonded are suited for. There is a lot of overlap between the two, aside from maybe the farther shots past 500yds on most cartridges the bonded will likely perform noticeably better. But there are a lot of factors that change things one way or the other, however... The deer is dead, soooooo use what you like and the strategy you like.
🕵️♂️ But, I hunt alot more than "Just Deer"! In My State we have Elk, Moose, Pronghorn Antelope, Wild Bison, Woodland Caribou, Black Bear, Grizzly Bear, Wolves, Coyotes, Foxes, Mountain Lions, Bobcats, Badgers, Wolverines, Mountain Goats, Big Horn Sheep, etc...in Addition to Whitetail Deer and Mule Deer! So, it Does Matter what bullet weight, bullet type, and caliber that you pick! But, you can't go wrong with the "Standard Cartridges" like the 30-06 and 270 Winchester! They call them the "Standards" for a reason! 🤑
And something that I'd like to add here is that there's definitely something to be said for a cartridge's efficiency. I reload the vast majority of my hunting and long range shooting ammunition and I have personally loaded many rounds of both 308 and 30-06. That being said, I want to point out that with 30-06 it takes 10 grains or so more gunpowder to achieve velocities that are less than 100 fps faster than 308 when using identical bullets. Obviously, this equates to both higher recoil and higher ammunition costs with 30-06. Let's use a 165 grain load for example, with the 3006 you're gaining around 75 fps while expending 11 grains more powder. So, in other words, you're using 23.9% more powder to only achieve a 2.6% increase in muzzle velocity.
😏 Now, that All being said, the 308 Winchester and the 270 Winchester have a samilar amount of recoil, but the 270 Winchester has 200+ yards of additional range! So, guess what I'm chosing to hunt with? 😜
@ronlowney4700 200+ yards of additional range based upon what? Kinetic energy? If that's what you're referring to then I hate to burst your bubble, but you're wrong because with both cartridges properly loaded for max efficiency and effectiveness 308 produces more kinetic energy than 270 does all the way out to 1000 yards.
@@ronlowney4700I absolutely agree with you there though because if you look at what 7mm rem mag actually does performance wise compared to conventional cartridges like 308, 3006 and 270 it's really not all that impressive and it's definitely not an efficient cartridge either, especially when you consider that the other cartridges all function at their best with 2" less barrel length
🤣 (Part #1) Dear Mr. "Couch" Potatoe (🛌🥔 Do you want fries with that? 🍟), it is YOU that are WRONG and I am about to show you WHY! Let's address your first statement first: 1.) Are you the same guy that is trying to convince me that the 308 Winchester Shoots Flatter, Is Faster, and Hits Harder than the 30-06? Well the same "Laws of Physics" Still Apply to the 270 Winchester too, because it uses the same 30-06 case and, in the same Bullet Weights (from 80 grains to 180 grains) has bullets with Higher B.C.'s in almost every grain weight! 2.) Why is this significant? Because the 308 Winchester doesn't function well, because it is a short acton cartridge, with bullet weights beyond that 180 grain bullet weight! It's sweet spot is with the 150 grain to 165 grain weight ranges! And, since the 270 Winchester is pushing higher B.C. bullets faster, because of the extra powder behind it, it should be evident to you which one will Win this contest! Right? 3.) Why was the 270 Winchester developed to begin with? It was created to be a flatter shooting cartridge than the 30-06, which it accomplishes with Most Comparative Bullet Weights and, thus, will certainly outperform the 308 Winchester! 🤪 So, let's look at some numbers and bullet weights to examine the "validity" of your claims! Let's look at 4 bullet weights and start with the 110 grain Nosler Accubond bullet and 110 grain Barnes TTSX bullet, which can be pushes at over 3,500 ft/s! Thus, sighted in (zeroed) dead on at 350 yards, the 270 Winchester will have a drop of +/- 4.5" out to 400 yards and a drop of -15" at 500 yards (using Norma 204 Powder - see both the Nosler and Barnes Reloading Manuals for confermation of this information)! Can the 308 Winchester do that? Hell No! 😳 4.) Now let's look at the other end, the 180 grain bullet for "Energy"! Just so you know, Manufacturers are now chambering the 270 Winchester with 1 in 7 1/2 twist (Browning) and 1 in 8 in twist barrels (companies like Winchester and the "Restablished" Remington Firearms Company) to shoot these heavier bullet weights! If You go on the Nosler Reloading Form and Look at What PHD Ballistician Dr.Mike posted - running the Quickloads Program (accessed by typing in load data for the 180 grain Woodleigh Weldcore 0.277 bullet) - what you will see is that with 63.9 grains of Vihtavori N570 powder, the 270 Winchester will push this bullet (B.C. of 0.513) out at 2,821 ft/s! Putting this into the Horneday Ballistics Calculator, what you will see is that it Generates 3,181 ft lbs of Energy! So, tell me, what 308 Winchester load can produce 3,200 ft lbs of Energy at the Muzzle? 😯 The Answer is - NONE! 😳 Hell, the 30-06 - even using the heavier 190 grain Nosler ABLR bullet and the best Non-compressed load - produces a velocity of 2,748 ft/s and a Muzzle Energy of 3,186 ft lbs (which is Only 5 ft lbs more of muzzle energy than the 270 Winchester - an insignificant amount)! So, these 2 Loads alone SHOW that the 270 Winchester Shoots Flatter and Hits Harder than ANY 308 Winchester Load and is Neck and Neck with the 30-06 itself (regarding energy in similar bullet weights, which should be no surprise)! Next, let's look at the 308 Winchester's "Sweet Spot" - the 150 grain and 165 grain bullets/loads and use the Nosler Online #9 Manual and some powder companies websites for references! 😃 Next...Part #2...
So I have to share this with you guys. I’m almost 70 and one of my contemporaries who introduced me the world of guns at 18 years old lives and dies by the 30-06! My first bolt action was a 30-06 because of him. As an 20 something year old man I found the 30-06 recoil to be objectionable. I went with a 308. The back and forth between us continues until just recently. My buddy has a big ranch with a lot of hogs and shoots them with his 30-06. They’re all DRT. But he decided he wanted to go suppressed with night vision and begrudgingly picked up a 308 with a heavy bull barrel. He’s now a convert. He’s a reloader and has finally admitted that he just sees no difference in the field performance of the two cartridges on game out to 350 yards. He has shot many 1 hole groups with this gun, something he’s never done with his Cooper custom 30-06, and the lighter recoil and shorter stroke allows him faster follow up shots. In the end I “won” the debate. The 308 is an easier cartridge to learn to excel with. There’s like 20 yards difference in MPBR and it’s just hard to beat a hot hand loaded 165 grain bullet on most North American game. If you need something bigger, it needs to be bigger than a 30-06!
There is a reason why the benchrest guys prefer shorter fatter cartridge cases over the longer thinner ones, something about more consistent ignition...
@DucDNA that isn't really true. The 308 has better accuracy with lighter bullets than the -06. 30-06 shows optimal accuracy with a bullet weight around 190 grains. A 308 with its smaller volume case shows optimal accuracy with bullets around 175gr. There is a reason the Army originally used a 200 grain bullet in their first 30cal cartidge. For competition guys who fire long strings, the extra recoil is not wanted. The lighter 175 also shoots a little flatter. The 175 loses some accuracy in the -06 because the case isn't fully filled. That can cause your groups to open up a little. For competition the 308 is better. Less recoil, flatter trajectory, and a lighter rifle. For a hunter, the accuracy differences are negligible. The 06 can load up heavier bullet weights that the 308 can't. For hunters going after bigger game than deer that is a factor. If all you hunt is deer, pigs, and black bear,(like a lot of Eastern hunters I wouldn't sweat the differences. 308 ammo is cheaper but 30-06 rifles are cheaper. BTW my 308 and 25-06 mostly stay in the safe during deer season. I take my Marlin 45-70 or Remington Model 14 in 35Rem these days. They are easier to tote, quieter, and have much less muzzle flash than my higher velocity rifles.
I would really like to see a comparison of heavy and slow vs light and fast. Specifically done with cartridges that produce the same amount of muzzle energy. 9.3x62 vs .300 win mag would be my personal pick (similar energy and sectional density), but im sure there are other cartridge combos that this comparison could be done with.
I’ve been a 308 guy for years , I don’t really hunt anymore so the 30/06 is not much fun at the range plus the cost would be rough. My grandsons kidnapped my 30/06 rifles, they’re just getting into hunting. Isn’t that what we buy guns for? Our grandchildren?
Here's my 2c worth... I have and hunt with both. Currently i use the .308 more, only because the 30-06 is fitted with a night vision scope, If it wasn't for that id probably use the '06 more. Here's the thing, they're both 30 cal cartridges and the most popular 30cal bullet weight is 180gr. This is the reason I have the 30-06, to shoot plainsgame in S Africa using 180gr bullets. It just does it better than the 308. The 150gr in the 308 is great... But then why not just get a 6.5 or .270 or 7mm with 140 - 160gr weight bullets 🤷🏻 just my opinion. I want 180gr + bullets, therefore I choose the 30-06
Ryan/ Mark, I have a very serious question. About Berger bullets particularly. Nothing against corlok, federal softpoints, etc. Most gel videos feature tsx, gmx, hammer bullets. Big fan of them also But! I found great accuracy with burgers in every caliber I've tried. Please talk about this one time in depth.
Currently use Berger in, 6.5-300wby 156gr, 300win 185gr, 30/06 155gr, 270 150gr. Tsx 300wsm 150gr but shoots 165gmx better. 6.5creed sst 129gr and 270 130grsst. .308 165gr sst. Idk I shoot others to but the list goes on.
I wonder, have ya'll done an episode on Military Surplus rifles for hunting? I'd love to have that running the the back ground when i'm cleaning my wooden arsenal.
A Savage 99 rifle inducted me into the fellowship of the .308 Win cartridge. Upon arriving at the shop one day I saw a scoped Savage 99 rifle with a Monte Carlo stock on the consignment rack. A few years later I stumbled across a valuation for the Savage branded scope which suggested that the scope’s collector value was rather more than I had paid for the whole rig: A new Leupold 2.5 to 8 power variable quickly allowed the original scope to go into retirement. The rotary magazine feeds like warm butter, with a satisfying snick-snick. The rifle is capable of greater accuracy than I am.
Love this video! I have owned several .30-06's in my lifetime (I'm 69) and was influenced by the outdoor writer, Jack O'Connor. I grew up in a military family and I also served 20 years in the army so I needed a rifle in a caliber that was common - the .30-06. I like the .308 as well (my older son has the only .308 I owned which I gave him). I believe the rise of the AR 10 in .308 has a lot to do with popularity of the round in the past few years. To me both calibers are winners.
I love the acknowledgment that you guys reflect of feedback from the comments. Much appreciated. I would love to see barrel length comparisons of the same cartridge. For example Ryan’s 16in 308 and his 24in 308. There are numbers all over but gel performance is few and far in between.
Generally you lose between 40 and 50 ft/sec for every inch you give up with factory bullets if you handload you can make up some of that with faster powders.
@@keithgraham8071 I have never seen that high of a consistent velocity lost with any non “magnum” factory loading. It might lose 15fps one inch, then 35 the next, but consistently 40-50 has not been my experience and I have a LOT of short barreled rifles of various lengths and exclusively use factory ammo. I’ve observed losses of 15-30fps across the board with factory ammo with 223, 308, and -06 families cartridges regardless of caliber. Some seem to lose more at 16-19in depending on the the ammunition (usually lighter grain weights). I’ve read some claims of 40-50 lost with magnums but a good chunk of online sources don’t show that as the norm until barrel lengths get pretty far from 26in. I have no personal experience on those. The only other factor I’ve seen is factory ammo is frequently 50-100fps slower than the box. So many people take the box value, chrono their 16in rifle and assume it lost that much from the box value during the chop. When in actuality it was 50-100fps slow from the start and the chop didn’t reduce it as much as they think.
I was taught to always take the high shoulder shot if possible, especially on Elk because if they can't run then they can't run away. Of course I've always used either Nosler Partition or Barnes TTSX in my 7mm Rem Mag.
I would love to see more of these, all of the similar cartridges! I really love seeing things like the .308 v 6.5 creed and now this one is awesome! Putting myths and rumors to rest and showing real results and showing what matters to the average person so they can understand what they’ve heard is either correct or incorrect is really beneficial to the future of shooting sports. Id love to see 6 creed vs .243 win, I think it would do a great job of showing that a lot of these newer cartridges coming out with a lot of swagger and hype around them really do the same thing as the older stuff inside 100 yards and at most hunting distances.
Your cartridge choice is like your NFL team. Not a lot of rhyme or reason. Even though you just gave an hours worth of reasons, I can pick a third cartridge and have just as much fun or disappointment.
It’s 30/06 all day for me. I live in the nw part of Washington and this cartridge has never failed me. Never lost a animal and a Barnes 168gr TTSx will kill anything I want! Mark it’s a easy choice! Thanks guys good podcast!
I know it's a big gun, but my 338 with 210 nosler partition years back was vital on penitration and performance. It was a hard 1/4 angle at 250 yards on big 350 inch bull. He was getting ready to go into the trees with his cows facing away. I shot for an angle through the heart and lungs area.The bullet entered at the last two ribs on the left side and penterated the full length of the body and stopped at the base of his skull on the right side. It was over 40 inches of penitration, and it took out the left lung, top of the heart, and neck. That's why you go for a bullet like that. You can not tell the animal to please pose broadside for me.
Another great vid. I watched both the shoot out and this unpacking vid. Full disclosure, I have been for some time a .308 W guy. I have a number of units in that caliber. Different styles for different purposes, each one handy to 300 and maybe 500 yards on a hail mary. And at least one of those rifles shoots .51 MOA in the first few shots. Which is great for hunting. And I am a bit surprised that Mark would go for the 6.5 CM. Considering that he favors heavily the .300 WSM, unbraked. And the .30-06 would be comparable. And I have to admit that in performance of the round in media, the .30-06 won over the .308. It can do the damage at longer distances. A key component of energy is velocity. That being said, the energy is not the end-all of effective shooting. The terminal performance is what matters. And I tend to agree with Ryan. I prefer the brachial plexus shot, if possible. I might lose some flat iron steak, even a smidge of back strap. But that is a few ounces to a pound, as opposed to losing 40 pounds of usable meat that bounded over a fence an onto private property that I do not have access to harvest. But I have recently drank the kool-aid and am on the 7 PRC train. It can do whatever my .308 does and whatever a .30-06 does. And it will also do what a .300 WM will do. Because it shoots flatter. Granted, it only really shines over other cartridges when you go past 500 yards but I like the idea of having a rifle that will shoot any game in North America and I can change to ELR targets by changing ammo and zero. Bravo to you guys for these vids and I am hoping you can keep on doing these comparisons. The gel results help a lot.
I’ve taken two black bears with 35 Whelen 225 gr. Sierra. One with 50 cal muzzle loader and 300 gr. SST. In the future I’ll be using 30-06, 168 gr. TTSX over Reloader 22 for 2997 FPS from Tikka T3x Superlite. Good luck on your quest for all around rifle!
I'm acquiring components as they become available to reload rifle rounds. I'm mainly looking at 30-06 at the moment. Keep up the great work, Gentleman.
Ryan is outstanding. I can only imagine what an asset he is to Vortex day to day. 🏆🤘I also think the way Ryan and Mark work together on this show is a better dynamic than when the others are present.
I have debated the .308 vs 30-06 comparison for too many years... I could not make up my mind, so I decided to get a .308 and a 300 Win Mag... Problem solved (for now).
A point on fmj bullets depositing energy: The performance of fmj (or other minimally-deforming bullets) varies dramatically depending on shape and construction. A modern rifle fmj bullet with a pointed ogive will yaw and turn sideways as it travels through the animal. This means that for part of its journey, it is full sideways and its "effective frontal area" is the entire side profile which is often larger than that of a mushroomed hunting bullet (sometimes the bullet breaks apart and fragments at this point). If it does not fragment or squish out its core, how rapidly it yaws sideways and how much time it spends yawing determines how much energy that bullet dumps in the animal. SOME shapes, like long bullets with a round nose will stay straight (no yaw) and cause minimal damage. The 6.5mm Carcano bullets used in WWI, for example, would often just punch a small hole in a soldier's body and cause minimal damage unless it hit a bone, critical organ, or blood vessel. A minimally-deforming bullet with a wide flat point (65% or more of the bullet diameter) will tend to travel straight through an animal but push aside more tissue and cause more damage than a round point. A lot of cast bullets and very-large game bullets use this shape.
Love the 25-06 it's a deer slaying machine!! Now that is what you should have put against the 6.5. They are extremely similar across the board. Would be a good match up. Other match ups maybe the 35 Whelen vs 30-06, 243 vs 6mm ARC, 300 win mag vs 338 win mag, 45-70 vs 450 bushmaster
When you talked about using the same bullet in the 308 and 30-06, you assumed that the 30-06 would still penetrate farther. I have seen tests like this and sometimes the faster bullet penetrates less. It seems to depend on bullet design. This is because the faster bullet opens sooner and to a wider diameter, causing a parachute effect. The faster bullet still dumps more energy, just in a shorter distance. If it still penetrates deep enough, no problem. Some bullet designs try to minimize this parachute effect and try to limit maximum expansion diameter in one form or another. Some bonded-core bullets rapidly thicken the jacket thickness at a certain point (Accubond LR, ), some non-bonded cup and core bullets do a similar thing and/or depend upon the outer part of the lead mushroom to continually break away to keep it from getting too large (Hornady ELD-X), and many expanding copper bullet naturally do this since the more narrow parts of the petals just bend backwards.
simple. 30-06 is better in every way except for the experience when shooting it. if you don't like heavier recoil especially with heavier bullets, go .308. if you arent ever shooting bear or over 350-400 yards go .308. if you want heavier bullets and dont mind the recoil shoot 30-06.
To use a car analogy, the 30-06 has more horsepower for sure, but performance is also about handling, ergononics, and weight to ratio. ;) I have both by the way, a pre 64 Model 70 in 30-06 in the standard configuration with Lyman sights, and a CZ 550 American in 308 that is the second most accurate rifle in my safe with handloads.
That's why I made the comment 30-06 is more versatile especially if you hand load big to small game just my opinion from lots of years hunting and loading !!
Hey Mark, Ryan has a point. I don't know all cervid biology, but on a broadside whitetail you are either aiming for shoulder shot with heart and large lung vessels or no shoulder with tapered, small lung vessels next to liver and guts. You can't say you aim for heart and keep off the shoulder if it's broadside, unless you get some quartering involved (see Ballistician Nathan Foster's research or trad hunting expert Ed Ashby's research - Ashby actually did the initial Barnes homogeneous research in Africa)
I think you said it best, the insurance. That’s why I have the 30-06 ahead of 308. I’m also 29. Might change my mind when I’m 49 when 1 pound makes a drastic difference
To Mark’s question of which would be better for big critters like moose…I think the difference you’d see is that when you move up to the heavy bullets that one might like for moose hunting, the 308 will start to suffer in the trajectory department. It would probably do just fine once it got there, but might be tougher to get the bullet there than with the 30-06.
The question is, do you need a heavier bullet? People in Europe have been killing moose with a 6.5x55 Swede for a long time and they’re not any heavier weight bullets than a Creedmoor.
30-06 with a 168 gr barns ttxs running "XL" grains of imr 4350 @ 3085 fps.... Mauser 98 action with a bent/welded bolt, timny trigger set at 1.3 lbs, Gentry 3 position safety a 26" #4 Douglas match barrel and a EC tuner muzzle break...... It's my poor man's 300 mag with very little recoil.... I want to build another Mauser 98 action into a 6.5 weatherby PRM so bad...... maybe you would like to do this same test with a 6.5-300 and the 6.5 weatherby RPM just because that would be really really cool.... Good pod as always guys please keep um coming.
It's interesting that you talk about being able to call your own shots as a desirable thing in a rifle/cartridge combo. I've been using a .308 through a light 18.5" carbine and if I use anything above the the 130ish grain weight the blast/recoil gets to the point where I cannot longer keep the scope on target. It really does inform how I load for it. There's no large game where I hunt so not going heavy on the projectile weight doesn't matter so much.
I would like to see 280AI in a test, still have questions about the 30-30 TSX. For Mark, I would have thought he would pick the 30-06 with a muzzle break. Great stuff either way.
While you're got the cartridge comparison trend going I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of 8.6 blackout sub/super and .308. It seems to me like 8.6 might have greater merits as a woods cartridge in return for it surrending it's long range performance. But maybe it gave that up for nothing.
The next time Ryan says "Marco" please shout Polo! ;) Also with your query at the end, 7mm rem mag hah! I prefer the .284 with 150-160 grain projectile for such an application, and I live and hunt in the PNW as well. OK fine, since you aren't asking about that one to shoot to 600 on deer and bear go 6.5 PRC vs CM imo.
I live in a lead-free state. I own both a .308 and a 30-06. For me it boils down to this- will a 130gr ttsx out of an 18" barrel .308 expand well enough and penetrate at the range I expect? If yes- I'll bring the .308. If I need or want to push a 168gr ttsx to ensure expansion/penetration, then the 30-06 wins. I believe the 06 is the versatile winner overall, but as I get older I'm starting to appreciate lighter-for-caliber copper for anything short of elk and black bear. If I lived in a state where I could choose from all those great bonded bullets, the water would be murky.
Guys, the criticism you encountered during the 6.5 creed episode was not really valid, at least in my opinion. Your choices and analysis was, generally speaking, spot on. 1) Energy. Kinetic energy is an approximation of terminal ballistic performance. Its a way of estimating what a bullet is likely to do when it impacts an object. But without understanding how that energy is transferred into tissue damage, energy tells you absolutely nothing. It is not, in and of itself, indicative of any form of terminal ballistic performance. Take the 9mm vs .40 S&W debate which has dominated duty pistol calibers in the law enforcement and personal protection fields over the past 30 years. The 40 absolutely has more kinetic energy than the 9mm. Nevertheless, numerous studies have shown that there is essentially no difference between the two calibers in terms of terminal effectiveness. For example, trauma surgeons cannot tell the difference in the wounds between the two. When firing the same high quality JHP rounds the 9 and 40 will see similar penetration and expansion, although the 40 will tend to expand a little more because its a wider projectile. This is why everyone has moved back to the 9mm over the past decade. With advances in bullet technology there is no real difference in lethality between the two calibers. But how can that be so when the .40 has more energy? Clearly, energy by itself doesn't tell you anything. You have to see how that energy is transferred to the target. The primary way bullets do damage is by passing through critical biological structures, which makes penetration the most important parameter. An expanding bullet will then do more damage primarily because it will leave a wider wound channel, and therefore crush more tissue, not necessarily because it will impart more kinetic energy. A large proportion of the kinetic energy delivered by a bullet is simply absorbed by the elasticity of the target tissue and converted to heat. You guys were absolutely correct to evaluate those two calibers by how they performed in gel, by looking first and foremost at penetration and then permanent wound cavity. So this criticism was almost completely unfounded. The only thing you probably should have added from a kinetic energy perspective was a more thorough discussion of hydrostatic shock. This is the only area where the additional energy of the 308 may not have been accounted for in your analysis. I don't know if you have the appropriate cameras, but seeing if there was a massive difference in temporary wound cavity may have been worth it, just as a way of estimating the level of hydrostatic shock. Given how similar the permanent wound cavities were I doubt there was much difference, but it would have completely alleviated this critique. 2) Penetration. A full metal jacket round that penetrates into a targets vitals will be more lethal than an expanding projectile that does not. A huge permanent wound cavity that is 3 inches deep and does not hit a major artery or organ is just a terrible and unethical wound. A full metal jacket round that penetrates right through a target is far more likely to strike something vital (especially if it tumbles). This is why people use hard cast lead projectiles for bear defense sidearms and not JHPs. They don't expand at all. What they do is penetrate. Without adequate penetration you don't have anything. You guys were 110% right to focus on it as a primary factor. The idea that a quartering shot is somehow unethical only applies if you have a cartridge with insufficient penetration. If your 6.5 creed can shoot clear through a target animal from a quarter shot, and gives you adequate expansion and a large permanent wound cavity, then there is nothing unethical about it. This is circular reasoning at its finest. Ultimately I think you guys did a great job. Your methodology and reasoning was sound, as were your conclusions. For some reason people are very sentimental about the 308 Winchester, probably because it is a military round. That's probably the real reason you guys were getting these negative comments.
It’s become something of a joke in our house to guesstimate the time stamp of the first mention of the 6.5 Creedmore. We do the same with pistol videos and the Glock 17 or 19.
Great podcast gentlemen!! However after shooting only a few hundred "big game animals " from pronghorn to Cape buffalo I don't remember nor did notice recoil. While it was a great discussion few options have probably changed.
Pick the rifle that fits you the best. Those are the biggest differences in the cartridges. Long action long barrel and short action short barrel. If you’re tall or get 06. If shorter or want a smaller gun 308. Personally I’m tall and primarily hunt with 06. But I still have 308s, everyone should own a 308.
Alright, so it's funny. I know it has the most factory loadings, but I'm really liking the flatter trajectory and wind drift advantages of 6.5creedmor and 30-06. And I think the 6.5 Creed is great for everything mule/ deer black bear and down and the 30-06 is great for black tail and up to elk and moose and even brown bear with the right bullets. Maybe a 30-06 vs 300wsm and /or a 300wsm vs 300 win mag would be fun topics as well. And also, and I know Ryan will hate this but I would love something comparing 284 Ackley and/or 7PRC or even the good ol' 7rem mag as well. Heck maybe find a way to throw 270win in there one of these days! Seriously though, keep up the good work! I love these podcasts and the topics and how thorough and open minded about different variables you guys are! PS I'm very new to hunting and ballistics and was enamored with the 6.8 Western for a while til no one really picked it up and Winchester and Browning just dumped it, so maybe the 7prc has me excited now, but honestly if elk inside 400~yds is the biggest you have to worry about, why go bigger than 284 Ackley or heck, how truly awesome is that good ol' true standby, time tested and better than ever 30-06!
At the end of the day all we are really debating is the velocity difference between the 308 and 06 as the 06 has greater case capacity as they both shoot the same bullets with different recoil characteristics. That being said the 150 grain bullet doesn't meet the preferred sectional density for Deer sized game and larger. If you opt for the 165 / 168 bullet you will have much better penetration that exceeds the 150 grain bulliits as the sectional density will exceed the .240's. especially in the cup n core ammunition. If you wish to shoot 180 grain ammo and larger choose the 06. If your content with proven traditional knowledge that successfully takes 300 yard shots with pass through stick with the 308 165 grainers. The 150 grainers are basically a military bullet that the masses have clung to for various reasons but rather poorly thought out in regards to larger game taking.
Only reason to pick .30-06 over .308 in a new rifle, is nostalgia. Most new rilfes are 22" now, and your getting 90% of .30-06 power from the .308 even with 24" barrels. .308 with 165gr-168gr bullets are the sweet spot, and your killing anything in North American. I've got both, but I've recently picked up a 6.5 PRC, and man its a tack driver out the box. Waiting on deer season.
Alright, I'm liking these cartridge battles. I'd love to see 6 ARC vs 6.5 grendel, or 6 creed vs 243 winchester!
In tha arena I would go 270 lol !!
No 6mm Remington or 240 Weatherby?
A cartridge comparison by caliber seems informative.
Why would anyone want a cartridge like 6.5 grendel or 6.8 spc? Can't even load heavy for caliber bullets and poor velocity...
@BMValiant because the 240 weatherby and the 6rem are basically dead, whereas the ones I've listed are booming
@@chadillac95 the 6mm Remington has a 1 in 9 twist while the 243 Winchester only has a 1 in 10 twist, meaning the 243 is limited to 100 grain bullet while the 6mm Remington can shot heavier bullets, not to mention an extra 100 fps for the 6mm Remington. Yeah compare a 6 arc to the 6mm Remington.
The 240 Weatherby is the only one you can call a magnum.
💯
Many years ago when I was deciding between a 30-06 and a 308, I went with the 308 because it was good enough for what I was planning to use it for (White Tail, and ferral hogs). The 308 generally has a shorter barrel and overall length and a lighter weight with a shorter bolt-throw. Surplus military ammo was still readily available at the time and the 308 had a better selection of reloading components. It also made sense to me to go with the 308 because I was planning to buy an AR10. I knew the 30-06 had better ballistics but the delta wasn't significant enough for me to go with it considering all of the other advantages of the 308.
308 is a great deer and pig cartridge. I have 2 - 30-06s now but hunted with a 308 for yeas now I use the 708 and 243 in my short action rifles both sons of the 308. but I never felt under gunned with my old 308. I actually took one of my longest shots with it and dropped a good buck at 505 yards
For me it was the M1 Garand or the M1A and I went with the M1A. As a left handed shooter I have always leaned hard towards semi auto firearms.
7mm-08 vs 308. Sectional density vs frontal area. Both in temporary wound channel and depth of penetration! Similar cartridges with same action length should make for a very interesting debate!
I predict the win going to the 7 -08
the deer don't know the difference. I have 708s now but I hunted with a 308s a long time .
Ryan has broken the code for the 308, 130grain Barnes cooking over 3000 fps. It is the best performing compromise for general hunting in North America.
@@TXLorenzojust shoot a 270 at that point 😂
@@jacklewis3444 Toomaytoe Toomautoe
30-06 because it is everything all the other cartridges wish they were. 😊 However, I would say I understand why you did versatility they way you did. However, the old 06 is what more versatile than the 308. I never felt under or over gunned from VA to AK.
Like both cartridges but I will always take my 30-06 Springfield.
Would love to see 30-30 on of these tests. Mostly because I wanna see some science of it. I know it will lose on so many levels. But it’s one of my favorite cartridges.
30-30 is a great short range rifle for shooting through brush and woods not longer ranges heavy and slow !!
I have taken hogs out to 270 yards with my 30-30 using 150 grain winchester superx. I'm good out to 300 yards using hornady leverevolution, though I've never been presented with a set that far out.
It would only lose out in the minds of doofuses who think you need 3000 ft lbs of energy to kill a 125lb whitetail at 2000 yards.
If they were honest most hunters that buy all these alphabet soup magnums would admit they don't hunt hard enough to find the giant trophy animals and aren't good enough shots to make a kill over 150 yards anyway.
A plain old 30-06 will drop anything in North America without much fuss. A 35 Whelen can go to Africa and deal with anything short of Cape Buffalo and Pachyderms. 45-70 will even put Dumbo on the ground with the right ammo.
All 3 are over a century old and don't require magnum sized actions.
Most modern ammo is created for a military requirement, as a marketing ploy, or to exploit loopholes in shooting games.
30-30 vs 300blk would be a decent comparison!
the 30-30 has killed more deer then any other
Vortex Nation -THE GREATEST PODCAST OF ALL TIMES !!.. I honestly mean it; Mark, you are a true professional, as is Ryan, what an amazing team.
Most Replayed - Ryan Mickelheimsturm
I'd like to see 6.8 spc vs 6.5 Grendel
After watching the earlier video over the weekend, I thought it would be a great idea to compare the various brands of lead free ammo such as TTSX, CX, Naturals, Sako's Blade, Nosler's E-Tip, Berger, etc. :)
naturals ? which company makes these ? also i have yet to see any berger monos in canada
Naturalis by Lapua
I never seen any either @@silaspierre1377
The only thing I would add is: For me it was not a 308 or 30-06 question. I got both. Every mechanic has more than one tool in his tool box and I feel the same way about the 308 and 30-06. My 308 is light weight Tikka with a 20" bbl and is GREAT for thick timber hunting where shots are less than a 150 yards. My 30-06 is heavier and has a longer barrel and better for shots in the 250-400 yard range. Get them both.
I have shoulder shot a whitetail with a 30-06 and they do not run much after that.
It'd be interesting to see a test between the heavy, slow horses of 30-06, 8.57JS and 9.3x62
Great show as always guys. Would love to see:
300 Win Mag vs 300 PRC
and / or
6mm creedmore vs 243
Keep up the brilliant work.
This channel is like a fine wine! Happy Monday fellas!
It does make the Monday morning commute just a little easier
Biggest 308 advantage... affordable options in every rifle platform exist in the 308. I can buy a bolt gun, AR 10, lever gun and a BPR in 308 on the same trip to the gun shop.
I would be very careful with a lever gun in 308 you have to use a poly tip or an blunt soft tip in the tube for safety purposes !!
Truly the all terrain tires of the cartridge world
@@craigneeley8414Browning and Henry have lever action rifles chambered in 308 that have a dropout magazine, not tube fed. You can run whatever bullets you want in those guns. I'm not even aware of any factory lever action rifle chambered in 308 Winchester that ever came just tube fed.
@craigneeley8414 no, BLR and Henry Long ranger are the most popular 308 lever guns. Mag fed. Don't believe any tube 308 levers exist. But yes, you are correct with most calibers like 30-30.
I'm loving the comparison between calibers, and you have been focusing on factory loads......I would love to see 30-06 and .308 with hand loads....my experience the 30-06 has the most to gain when it comes to hand loads. .would love to hear your thoughts.....
We think there is a lot to gain from just hand loading in general as you typically see better results with S/D's and group size when compared to factory loads. Will have to see if Muck is down for some reloading on some calibers. Stay tuned!
i bought a few vortex scopes because of you guys***I LIKE THE 2X7X32 AND 35 SCOPES@@VortexNation
🙌🙌🙌
I would love to see the difference of the Hornady 165 cx on the 308 vs 30.06. I reload this bullet in my 30.06
@@timtimm9199 165-168 seems to be the sweet spot for 30-06 you can get a relatively high BC bullet traveling at 3000 fps with hand loads. 308 can’t touch that.
30-06 with 200gr Partitions @2600 for the win!! Flys flatter than you expect, excellent expansion for lighter big game also with the horsepower for large game. Thanks for the excellent breakdown as usual!
I have found that penetration is dependent on speed and distance. I primarily hunt with my 308 loaded with a 165 interlock at 2800 fps. I shot a giant mule deer at 286 yards and that bullet went right through that large mule. I have also shot a slightly smaller one at 38yards that the bullet didn’t exit.
Think these podcasts are the highest quality yall have made. I continue to listen to these cartridge talks repeatedly.
got an old 30-06 springfield .would love to see a podcast on different guns from different wars and how they were sporterized through the years
5.56x45, .308(with a stubby barrel and under 5 lbs), some magnum class cartridge. All North American hunting encounters are now covered, but I see no reason not to own two dozen more niche cartridges. 😂
Love the 06 and always will. A few years back I got the hankering for another rifle. After much research I purchased a 7mm/08 and have never looked back.
I’d like to suggest to revise the comparison to segment for application/game size, and do the scoring on a 5 point scale. It’s tough to say that .308 outright beats .30-06 in a category like accessibility, whereas it’s more like .308 is a 5/5 and .30-06 is 4.5/5. Absolutely love this content…Keep it going!!!
Yes i actually like idea. Gives I think a more in-depth view of everything.
The underlying conversation needs to be the next podcast. Shot placement!
I'd go with .308 for your use case. 6.5CM is easier to shoot at a range of 600 yards, though.
One issue I have here is that I don't believe 308 has been realistically represented with the anemic mv presented in the 150gr category. 2820fps mv is standard for .308 150gr. IIRC, they referenced 26xx fps for their 150gr powershok. That's 180gr velocities.
Another great episode. I've been enjoying this series. I would like to see 7mm-08 vs 308. Because as far as I can tell 308 is the most prolific round in the USA so is a spin off better?
I would love to see this as well!!
Hey Ryan, did we just break up???😂
Seriously, great show, and great job fellas.
I am a huge fan of 308... this is realistically because of length and weight of the rifles. 308 excels in 16-18" barrels and carrying a compact 308 in the woods of NW PA is much nicer than a 06...
Over the ammo shortage of the last few seasons. I found myself recommending the 308 & 350 Legend to young hunters looking for a new rifle. With the 308 being the better overall caliber for just about anything in the lower 48. You could find ammo for either, everywhere.
Hey I own both of those. :)
@@Sandz_ Same here. Oldest daughter took her first buck this last season with the 350 Legend. 11 pointer. She did her part and that Win 150gr XP did it's job
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@@mot0rhe4d40 love to hear it. Such a cool experience. Can't wait til my daughter gets her first deer.
Be cool to see a 165 grain performance between these two calibers. It's my favorite to hand load for game.
This got me thinking. Since we have a very controlled environment and test media. Energy is the ability to do work. In this case the work would be displacing gel. So using the energy at impact, the diameter of the expanded bullet, and the depth of penetration, we can approximate how much material was displaced between the two rounds and the energy it took to do so. i.e. the .308 165 copper, hit the block with 2332 ft-lbs of energy, penetrated 33.625" with a diameter of .585 resulting in 9.0378in^3 of gel displacement, or 258 ft-lbs of energy per in^3 of gel. the results for the 30-06 are 262 ft-lbs of energy. 1.54% difference. Remarkably similar.
Extrapolating for a 7mm mag with 150gr trophy copper, 2673 ft-lbs of energy, expanded to .507" diameter would displace 10.2808 in^3 of gel and penetrate appx 51" of gel. Anyone care to validate?
Yes. .284 bore = better sectional density.
Good call.
My first deer rifle was a Remington 700 in 30-06. I traded to 308 for less recoil with on average only a 100 fps loss. Inside 500 yards that is negligible. Also in your cartridge talks you have specified "Factory ammo", which some people may have missed. I can reload 308 up to 30-06 velocities and I can download the latter down to 308 recoil. Unless you reload you can not realize the full potential of any cartridge, however, for most applications factory ammo is good enough.
I haven't looked at my reloading manual in a while for 308 but I always liked the 30-06 for it's versatility for very light for varmints to big game if you look back in the day 20s and thirties they were using 30-06 to take down elephants and cape Buffalo !!
@@craigneeley8414 yes, Ron Spomer talks about a guy who took like 11 elephant with 7x57 mauser. I think the last name was Bell. I remember shooting the 30-06 accelerators at 4000 fps back in the 80s but the weren't very accurate.
@@craigneeley8414 also the 30-06 does much better with the 200 and 220 grain bullets because of the extra powder capacity, however, your shoulder will pay the price. My 338 WM has a break on it and if I bought a 30-06 or 300 WM today they would have breaks. I don't like recoil over 15 to 20 pounds and 7 to 10 is even better.
308 won't match 30 06 if you hand load it also.
7mm08 vs 6.5 creedmore, vs 308, 3006. Id say 3006 is the most versatile if you handload. 7mm08 probably best balanced cartridge if you hand load.
This series is awesome! Would love to see 220 Swift vs 22-250
Shot placement is key to any shot on a animal. Same for bow or gun. Some think certain broadheads even a half ass shot will kill. Some think the same with big guns. That is wrong very wrong. Shot placement is most important. No matter what you are shooting or shooting at. Anyone that doesn't know or believe that. Shouldn't be shooting or hunting. PERIOD!
The video content and information discussed is what keeps me coming back for more. I Really enjoy this new twist format, which is both entertaining and informative. I to enjoy seeing the different bullets perform in the gel blocks, both lead cup/core and monometals.
Both of these cartridges are just fine, but I think for the average person (especially out here in the south east) the 308 is a superior choice. Even during the ammo shortages I’ve always been able to go to a local sporting goods store and find 308. At my local Walmart during the shortage there were 4 loads of 308 to the 1 of 30-06 and the 1 of 6.5creed. 308 can do 90 percent of what the 30-06 can do, and for someone who is very seldom going to hunt an animal bigger than an elk or moose the 308 is more than enough.
I think what you’re saying is true but I do think it’s also regional. At my local sporting goods stores and Walmarts they always have a good variety of both 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor. There was a time when 30-06 used to fill the case and that isn’t the situation anymore, even after the shortage. My Walmart always has a decent selection of 270 as well. Now, that said, I know the sporting goods manager of my Walmart and he is very pro 2A and prides himself on keeping a good selection of firearms and ammo, so maybe he knows the market and tries a little harder than other stores? Hard to say, but that’s just my personal observation from where I live in central Pennsylvania.
Excellent discussion as always (except giving .308 a point for ammo accessibility). MUZZLE BRAKES can be outstanding. Several years ago I had my smith and Wesson branded Howa 1500 .30-'06 I got in 1983 refinished at Tucson's awesome Lawson's custom rifle maker and gunsmith. Stock refinished, bolt jeweled, and their custom muzzle brake added and I gave the rifle to my then wispy 13 year old son. With the brake - and boy you must wear hearing protection - it shoots like a .243 or .223. Huge difference. .308 and -'06 are truly all but identical - with the "but" giving the '06 an average 150 fps advantage in MV and hence energy. Ought six wins every day.
Never heard of ~60-70% reduction in recoil from a brake. He must be one heck of a gunsmith.
On Google, someone swears the brake they bought from Lawson 3 years ago took their .300 WSM down to .243 recoil levels. That's ~66% recoil reduction - incredible!
I'm going to give them a call - if their brake can take my .308's recoil down to .300 blackout levels, I'd pay $1000.
Within the initial video, I appreciated that is wasn’t a definitive statement about which was best overall under all circumstances. I understood it was not necessarily an apple to apples comparison so the 150 to 180 grain weights (because these are some commonly used) with similar bullet types was an understandable comparison. I liked that you showed several bullet types, power shock and Cooper.
In the past I was a 30-06 fanatic, I have since become more aware of shootablity (recoil and Carry weight)and economy/availability of shootablity.
I think many of us are emotionally invested in which rifle and bullet that we prefer.
I am including in that camp, so I prefer 30-06 however I shoot and hunt with 308 win more often. When I recommend a rifle to a new shooter/hunter it is more often a 308 win, over 30-06 and definitely 6.5 CM. I admit my bias against 6.5CM is emotional.
Am I a hypocrite?
Maybe a bit of a hypocrite, but I think if you actually talk to people about the cartridges and explain why you don't like one over another then it's not a huge deal. Don't try to make people shoot your favorite cartridge, get them to understand why you may pick one over another.
I can't stand the 06, but my best friend was seriously considering it for his 1st deer rifle. He ended up going 270 win, but I explained to him the versatility of the 06 vs the trajectory of something like the 270. He did his own research and realized he doesn't need anything more than a 270 for shooting deer out to 300yds, and the added versatility of the 06 wouldn't suit him as well as the lower recoil and flatter trajectories of the 270 (typically)
Bring in some Weatherby cartridges if you really want to test velocity
Yes!
.30-06 or .308 Win VS 7mm Rem Mag both with Federal Terminal Ascent.
Went with both and a 270win. Why? Simply for economy and availability of factory ammo and load components.
Could you guys possibly add a bonded bullet to the mix of cup and core and copper, just for fun. Love the videos and channel
🧐 Swift A-Frame's! 😎
The meateater showed that bonded bullets are really the best of both worlds.
🤠 Absolutely! 😁👍 Both in Expansion and Penetration! But, all the other bullets have their place too! If you are hunting thin skinned game, like antelope, then the cup and core bullet is the best choice (because it will expand immediately and blow the lungs apart - which antelope have proportionally bigger ones than other animals)! Rember Ryan's failure with the 300 Weatherby Magnum? It wasn't because it didn't have enough energy, it was because of improper bullet selection for the task at hand! 😭 For Bears, where you are shooting them in the head at close range, Monolithic Solids are the best choice! 🐻 Others are for cheap target practice or competition shooting! But, your right, Bonded Bullets provide the "Best Balance" of both, in a Hunting Senario! 🤑
They all kill deer. To be fair this was more of an investigation into cartridges not bullets. Bonded will work great copper is well sufficient for most applications bonded are suited for. There is a lot of overlap between the two, aside from maybe the farther shots past 500yds on most cartridges the bonded will likely perform noticeably better. But there are a lot of factors that change things one way or the other, however...
The deer is dead, soooooo use what you like and the strategy you like.
🕵️♂️ But, I hunt alot more than "Just Deer"! In My State we have Elk, Moose, Pronghorn Antelope, Wild Bison, Woodland Caribou, Black Bear, Grizzly Bear, Wolves, Coyotes, Foxes, Mountain Lions, Bobcats, Badgers, Wolverines, Mountain Goats, Big Horn Sheep, etc...in Addition to Whitetail Deer and Mule Deer! So, it Does Matter what bullet weight, bullet type, and caliber that you pick! But, you can't go wrong with the "Standard Cartridges" like the 30-06 and 270 Winchester! They call them the "Standards" for a reason! 🤑
First I apologize for not searching comment history, but kinetic energy is .5 x mass x velocity^2. Momentum is just mass x velocity.
Sectional density (S.D.) is commonly what is described when people use the word "momentum" in these talks.
And something that I'd like to add here is that there's definitely something to be said for a cartridge's efficiency. I reload the vast majority of my hunting and long range shooting ammunition and I have personally loaded many rounds of both 308 and 30-06. That being said, I want to point out that with 30-06 it takes 10 grains or so more gunpowder to achieve velocities that are less than 100 fps faster than 308 when using identical bullets. Obviously, this equates to both higher recoil and higher ammunition costs with 30-06. Let's use a 165 grain load for example, with the 3006 you're gaining around 75 fps while expending 11 grains more powder. So, in other words, you're using 23.9% more powder to only achieve a 2.6% increase in muzzle velocity.
🤣 And, the same can be said for the 30-06 vs. the 7mm Remington Magnum (plus the 7mm Remington Magnum needs a 26" barrel to function properly)! 😳
😏 Now, that All being said, the 308 Winchester and the 270 Winchester have a samilar amount of recoil, but the 270 Winchester has 200+ yards of additional range! So, guess what I'm chosing to hunt with? 😜
@ronlowney4700 200+ yards of additional range based upon what? Kinetic energy? If that's what you're referring to then I hate to burst your bubble, but you're wrong because with both cartridges properly loaded for max efficiency and effectiveness 308 produces more kinetic energy than 270 does all the way out to 1000 yards.
@@ronlowney4700I absolutely agree with you there though because if you look at what 7mm rem mag actually does performance wise compared to conventional cartridges like 308, 3006 and 270 it's really not all that impressive and it's definitely not an efficient cartridge either, especially when you consider that the other cartridges all function at their best with 2" less barrel length
🤣 (Part #1) Dear Mr. "Couch" Potatoe (🛌🥔 Do you want fries with that? 🍟), it is YOU that are WRONG and I am about to show you WHY! Let's address your first statement first: 1.) Are you the same guy that is trying to convince me that the 308 Winchester Shoots Flatter, Is Faster, and Hits Harder than the 30-06? Well the same "Laws of Physics" Still Apply to the 270 Winchester too, because it uses the same 30-06 case and, in the same Bullet Weights (from 80 grains to 180 grains) has bullets with Higher B.C.'s in almost every grain weight! 2.) Why is this significant? Because the 308 Winchester doesn't function well, because it is a short acton cartridge, with bullet weights beyond that 180 grain bullet weight! It's sweet spot is with the 150 grain to 165 grain weight ranges! And, since the 270 Winchester is pushing higher B.C. bullets faster, because of the extra powder behind it, it should be evident to you which one will Win this contest! Right? 3.) Why was the 270 Winchester developed to begin with? It was created to be a flatter shooting cartridge than the 30-06, which it accomplishes with Most Comparative Bullet Weights and, thus, will certainly outperform the 308 Winchester! 🤪 So, let's look at some numbers and bullet weights to examine the "validity" of your claims! Let's look at 4 bullet weights and start with the 110 grain Nosler Accubond bullet and 110 grain Barnes TTSX bullet, which can be pushes at over 3,500 ft/s! Thus, sighted in (zeroed) dead on at 350 yards, the 270 Winchester will have a drop of +/- 4.5" out to 400 yards and a drop of -15" at 500 yards (using Norma 204 Powder - see both the Nosler and Barnes Reloading Manuals for confermation of this information)! Can the 308 Winchester do that? Hell No! 😳 4.) Now let's look at the other end, the 180 grain bullet for "Energy"! Just so you know, Manufacturers are now chambering the 270 Winchester with 1 in 7 1/2 twist (Browning) and 1 in 8 in twist barrels (companies like Winchester and the "Restablished" Remington Firearms Company) to shoot these heavier bullet weights! If You go on the Nosler Reloading Form and Look at What PHD Ballistician Dr.Mike posted - running the Quickloads Program (accessed by typing in load data for the 180 grain Woodleigh Weldcore 0.277 bullet) - what you will see is that with 63.9 grains of Vihtavori N570 powder, the 270 Winchester will push this bullet (B.C. of 0.513) out at 2,821 ft/s! Putting this into the Horneday Ballistics Calculator, what you will see is that it Generates 3,181 ft lbs of Energy! So, tell me, what 308 Winchester load can produce 3,200 ft lbs of Energy at the Muzzle? 😯 The Answer is - NONE! 😳 Hell, the 30-06 - even using the heavier 190 grain Nosler ABLR bullet and the best Non-compressed load - produces a velocity of 2,748 ft/s and a Muzzle Energy of 3,186 ft lbs (which is Only 5 ft lbs more of muzzle energy than the 270 Winchester - an insignificant amount)! So, these 2 Loads alone SHOW that the 270 Winchester Shoots Flatter and Hits Harder than ANY 308 Winchester Load and is Neck and Neck with the 30-06 itself (regarding energy in similar bullet weights, which should be no surprise)! Next, let's look at the 308 Winchester's "Sweet Spot" - the 150 grain and 165 grain bullets/loads and use the Nosler Online #9 Manual and some powder companies websites for references! 😃 Next...Part #2...
So I have to share this with you guys. I’m almost 70 and one of my contemporaries who introduced me the world of guns at 18 years old lives and dies by the 30-06! My first bolt action was a 30-06 because of him. As an 20 something year old man I found the 30-06 recoil to be objectionable. I went with a 308. The back and forth between us continues until just recently. My buddy has a big ranch with a lot of hogs and shoots them with his 30-06. They’re all DRT. But he decided he wanted to go suppressed with night vision and begrudgingly picked up a 308 with a heavy bull barrel. He’s now a convert. He’s a reloader and has finally admitted that he just sees no difference in the field performance of the two cartridges on game out to 350 yards. He has shot many 1 hole groups with this gun, something he’s never done with his Cooper custom 30-06, and the lighter recoil and shorter stroke allows him faster follow up shots. In the end I “won” the debate. The 308 is an easier cartridge to learn to excel with. There’s like 20 yards difference in MPBR and it’s just hard to beat a hot hand loaded 165 grain bullet on most North American game. If you need something bigger, it needs to be bigger than a 30-06!
Not sure if it's myth or not, but I've always heard the 308 is inherently more accurate than the 30-06.
@@DucDNA I believe it’s true.
There is a reason why the benchrest guys prefer shorter fatter cartridge cases over the longer thinner ones, something about more consistent ignition...
@DucDNA that isn't really true. The 308 has better accuracy with lighter bullets than the -06. 30-06 shows optimal accuracy with a bullet weight around 190 grains. A 308 with its smaller volume case shows optimal accuracy with bullets around 175gr. There is a reason the Army originally used a 200 grain bullet in their first 30cal cartidge.
For competition guys who fire long strings, the extra recoil is not wanted. The lighter 175 also shoots a little flatter.
The 175 loses some accuracy in the -06 because the case isn't fully filled. That can cause your groups to open up a little.
For competition the 308 is better. Less recoil, flatter trajectory, and a lighter rifle.
For a hunter, the accuracy differences are negligible. The 06 can load up heavier bullet weights that the 308 can't. For hunters going after bigger game than deer that is a factor.
If all you hunt is deer, pigs, and black bear,(like a lot of Eastern hunters I wouldn't sweat the differences. 308 ammo is cheaper but 30-06 rifles are cheaper.
BTW my 308 and 25-06 mostly stay in the safe during deer season. I take my Marlin 45-70 or Remington Model 14 in 35Rem these days. They are easier to tote, quieter, and have much less muzzle flash than my higher velocity rifles.
I would really like to see a comparison of heavy and slow vs light and fast. Specifically done with cartridges that produce the same amount of muzzle energy. 9.3x62 vs .300 win mag would be my personal pick (similar energy and sectional density), but im sure there are other cartridge combos that this comparison could be done with.
This is a great idea!
Vortex Nation is my favorite podcast, and I don't even hunt.
I’ve been a 308 guy for years , I don’t really hunt anymore so the 30/06 is not much fun at the range plus the cost would be rough. My grandsons kidnapped my 30/06 rifles, they’re just getting into hunting. Isn’t that what we buy guns for? Our grandchildren?
Here's my 2c worth...
I have and hunt with both. Currently i use the .308 more, only because the 30-06 is fitted with a night vision scope, If it wasn't for that id probably use the '06 more.
Here's the thing, they're both 30 cal cartridges and the most popular 30cal bullet weight is 180gr. This is the reason I have the 30-06, to shoot plainsgame in S Africa using 180gr bullets. It just does it better than the 308. The 150gr in the 308 is great... But then why not just get a 6.5 or .270 or 7mm with 140 - 160gr weight bullets 🤷🏻 just my opinion.
I want 180gr + bullets, therefore I choose the 30-06
Ryan/ Mark, I have a very serious question. About Berger bullets particularly. Nothing against corlok, federal softpoints, etc. Most gel videos feature tsx, gmx, hammer bullets. Big fan of them also But! I found great accuracy with burgers in every caliber I've tried. Please talk about this one time in depth.
Currently use Berger in, 6.5-300wby 156gr, 300win 185gr, 30/06 155gr, 270 150gr. Tsx 300wsm 150gr but shoots 165gmx better. 6.5creed sst 129gr and 270 130grsst. .308 165gr sst. Idk I shoot others to but the list goes on.
The 30-06 wins hands down all the way!
I wonder, have ya'll done an episode on Military Surplus rifles for hunting? I'd love to have that running the the back ground when i'm cleaning my wooden arsenal.
A Savage 99 rifle inducted me into the fellowship of the .308 Win cartridge. Upon arriving at the shop one day I saw a scoped Savage 99 rifle with a Monte Carlo stock on the consignment rack. A few years later I stumbled across a valuation for the Savage branded scope which suggested that the scope’s collector value was rather more than I had paid for the whole rig: A new Leupold 2.5 to 8 power variable quickly allowed the original scope to go into retirement. The rotary magazine feeds like warm butter, with a satisfying snick-snick. The rifle is capable of greater accuracy than I am.
After watching, I wonder if I can stuff one of those copper bullets in a 300 savage case? If so, how many grains? Time to hit the books.
Check out the 110 grain offerings.
…both of them. 👍
Love this video! I have owned several .30-06's in my lifetime (I'm 69) and was influenced by the outdoor writer, Jack O'Connor. I grew up in a military family and I also served 20 years in the army so I needed a rifle in a caliber that was common - the .30-06. I like the .308 as well (my older son has the only .308 I owned which I gave him). I believe the rise of the AR 10 in .308 has a lot to do with popularity of the round in the past few years. To me both calibers are winners.
Supper interested in 6 arc vs 6.5 grendal!
I love the acknowledgment that you guys reflect of feedback from the comments. Much appreciated.
I would love to see barrel length comparisons of the same cartridge. For example Ryan’s 16in 308 and his 24in 308. There are numbers all over but gel performance is few and far in between.
Generally you lose between 40 and 50 ft/sec for every inch you give up with factory bullets if you handload you can make up some of that with faster powders.
@@keithgraham8071
I have never seen that high of a consistent velocity lost with any non “magnum” factory loading.
It might lose 15fps one inch, then 35 the next, but consistently 40-50 has not been my experience and I have a LOT of short barreled rifles of various lengths and exclusively use factory ammo.
I’ve observed losses of 15-30fps across the board with factory ammo with 223, 308, and -06 families cartridges regardless of caliber. Some seem to lose more at 16-19in depending on the the ammunition (usually lighter grain weights).
I’ve read some claims of 40-50 lost with magnums but a good chunk of online sources don’t show that as the norm until barrel lengths get pretty far from 26in. I have no personal experience on those.
The only other factor I’ve seen is factory ammo is frequently 50-100fps slower than the box. So many people take the box value, chrono their 16in rifle and assume it lost that much from the box value during the chop. When in actuality it was 50-100fps slow from the start and the chop didn’t reduce it as much as they think.
You can load the 308 with a 130gr ttsx with varget or 4198 that goes faster than a factory 165gr 300 win mag. 😮
I was taught to always take the high shoulder shot if possible, especially on Elk because if they can't run then they can't run away. Of course I've always used either Nosler Partition or Barnes TTSX in my 7mm Rem Mag.
I would love to see more of these, all of the similar cartridges! I really love seeing things like the .308 v 6.5 creed and now this one is awesome! Putting myths and rumors to rest and showing real results and showing what matters to the average person so they can understand what they’ve heard is either correct or incorrect is really beneficial to the future of shooting sports. Id love to see 6 creed vs .243 win, I think it would do a great job of showing that a lot of these newer cartridges coming out with a lot of swagger and hype around them really do the same thing as the older stuff inside 100 yards and at most hunting distances.
Your cartridge choice is like your NFL team. Not a lot of rhyme or reason. Even though you just gave an hours worth of reasons, I can pick a third cartridge and have just as much fun or disappointment.
That’s the thing, you don’t want the disappointment 🤣 picking a cartridge is to reduce the amount of disappointment
It’s 30/06 all day for me. I live in the nw part of Washington and this cartridge has never failed me. Never lost a animal and a Barnes 168gr TTSx will kill anything I want! Mark it’s a easy choice! Thanks guys good podcast!
My 270 and other calibers shoot hammer bullets more consistently than barnes. U have standard twist barrel?
@@travissmith-wz5nc 1:10
Twist and there half the cost of hammer. And hammer bullets gave been know not to expand. I do like them though!
I know it's a big gun, but my 338 with 210 nosler partition years back was vital on penitration and performance. It was a hard 1/4 angle at 250 yards on big 350 inch bull. He was getting ready to go into the trees with his cows facing away. I shot for an angle through the heart and lungs area.The bullet entered at the last two ribs on the left side and penterated the full length of the body and stopped at the base of his skull on the right side. It was over 40 inches of penitration, and it took out the left lung, top of the heart, and neck. That's why you go for a bullet like that. You can not tell the animal to please pose broadside for me.
Vortex podcasts ROCK.👍
And I got a 30-06 because of Mr. Hathcock.
I've been listening to his audible white feather
Another great vid. I watched both the shoot out and this unpacking vid.
Full disclosure, I have been for some time a .308 W guy. I have a number of units in that caliber. Different styles for different purposes, each one handy to 300 and maybe 500 yards on a hail mary. And at least one of those rifles shoots .51 MOA in the first few shots. Which is great for hunting.
And I am a bit surprised that Mark would go for the 6.5 CM. Considering that he favors heavily the .300 WSM, unbraked. And the .30-06 would be comparable. And I have to admit that in performance of the round in media, the .30-06 won over the .308. It can do the damage at longer distances. A key component of energy is velocity.
That being said, the energy is not the end-all of effective shooting. The terminal performance is what matters. And I tend to agree with Ryan. I prefer the brachial plexus shot, if possible. I might lose some flat iron steak, even a smidge of back strap. But that is a few ounces to a pound, as opposed to losing 40 pounds of usable meat that bounded over a fence an onto private property that I do not have access to harvest.
But I have recently drank the kool-aid and am on the 7 PRC train. It can do whatever my .308 does and whatever a .30-06 does. And it will also do what a .300 WM will do. Because it shoots flatter. Granted, it only really shines over other cartridges when you go past 500 yards but I like the idea of having a rifle that will shoot any game in North America and I can change to ELR targets by changing ammo and zero.
Bravo to you guys for these vids and I am hoping you can keep on doing these comparisons. The gel results help a lot.
I’ve taken two black bears with 35 Whelen 225 gr. Sierra. One with 50 cal muzzle loader and 300 gr. SST. In the future I’ll be using 30-06, 168 gr. TTSX over Reloader 22 for 2997 FPS from Tikka T3x Superlite. Good luck on your quest for all around rifle!
Mark, .270 Win is the answer. It takes the good of the 6.5 with the good of the 08 and 06.
Going forward some b roll close ups of the expanded projectiles while each one is being discussed would be pretty rad
I'm acquiring components as they become available to reload rifle rounds. I'm mainly looking at 30-06 at the moment. Keep up the great work, Gentleman.
This podcast is the best thing on the Internet
Ryan is outstanding.
I can only imagine what an asset he is to Vortex day to day. 🏆🤘I also think the way Ryan and Mark work together on this show is a better dynamic than when the others are present.
I’d love to see the 6.5 Creedmoor vs the 270 Winchester using these same parameters!
that's a good idea but I think I would prefer a 6.5 PRC as it is ballistically speaking, closer to the .270
I have debated the .308 vs 30-06 comparison for too many years... I could not make up my mind, so I decided to get a .308 and a 300 Win Mag... Problem solved (for now).
Good choice, the gap between 308 and 30-06 is to small to justify going to a long action. The 300wm gives you what you want from a long action.
A point on fmj bullets depositing energy: The performance of fmj (or other minimally-deforming bullets) varies dramatically depending on shape and construction. A modern rifle fmj bullet with a pointed ogive will yaw and turn sideways as it travels through the animal. This means that for part of its journey, it is full sideways and its "effective frontal area" is the entire side profile which is often larger than that of a mushroomed hunting bullet (sometimes the bullet breaks apart and fragments at this point). If it does not fragment or squish out its core, how rapidly it yaws sideways and how much time it spends yawing determines how much energy that bullet dumps in the animal. SOME shapes, like long bullets with a round nose will stay straight (no yaw) and cause minimal damage. The 6.5mm Carcano bullets used in WWI, for example, would often just punch a small hole in a soldier's body and cause minimal damage unless it hit a bone, critical organ, or blood vessel.
A minimally-deforming bullet with a wide flat point (65% or more of the bullet diameter) will tend to travel straight through an animal but push aside more tissue and cause more damage than a round point. A lot of cast bullets and very-large game bullets use this shape.
Love the 25-06 it's a deer slaying machine!! Now that is what you should have put against the 6.5. They are extremely similar across the board. Would be a good match up.
Other match ups maybe the 35 Whelen vs 30-06, 243 vs 6mm ARC, 300 win mag vs 338 win mag, 45-70 vs 450 bushmaster
When you talked about using the same bullet in the 308 and 30-06, you assumed that the 30-06 would still penetrate farther. I have seen tests like this and sometimes the faster bullet penetrates less. It seems to depend on bullet design. This is because the faster bullet opens sooner and to a wider diameter, causing a parachute effect. The faster bullet still dumps more energy, just in a shorter distance. If it still penetrates deep enough, no problem.
Some bullet designs try to minimize this parachute effect and try to limit maximum expansion diameter in one form or another. Some bonded-core bullets rapidly thicken the jacket thickness at a certain point (Accubond LR, ), some non-bonded cup and core bullets do a similar thing and/or depend upon the outer part of the lead mushroom to continually break away to keep it from getting too large (Hornady ELD-X), and many expanding copper bullet naturally do this since the more narrow parts of the petals just bend backwards.
Is the bullet grain based on what you can find in a store or what you can reload
Mark is the 6.5 PRC or BC in the mix for your new rifle black tail and bear rifle?
simple. 30-06 is better in every way except for the experience when shooting it. if you don't like heavier recoil especially with heavier bullets, go .308. if you arent ever shooting bear or over 350-400 yards go .308. if you want heavier bullets and dont mind the recoil shoot 30-06.
30-06 is avalable in 110g now. i have a 308 but really thought the 30-06 should have won that.
To use a car analogy, the 30-06 has more horsepower for sure, but performance is also about handling, ergononics, and weight to ratio. ;) I have both by the way, a pre 64 Model 70 in 30-06 in the standard configuration with Lyman sights, and a CZ 550 American in 308 that is the second most accurate rifle in my safe with handloads.
That's why I made the comment 30-06 is more versatile especially if you hand load big to small game just my opinion from lots of years hunting and loading !!
If you hand load you can go down to 80 grain nice and zippy for ground hogs lol !!
Mauser sued Remington over the 30-06 cartridge and the 700 action for patent infringement if that tells you anything lol !!
@craigneeley8414 wrong mauser sued the u.s. military over the 30-06 because the m1903 was a "copy" of their k98 pattern rifle
Hey Mark, Ryan has a point. I don't know all cervid biology, but on a broadside whitetail you are either aiming for shoulder shot with heart and large lung vessels or no shoulder with tapered, small lung vessels next to liver and guts. You can't say you aim for heart and keep off the shoulder if it's broadside, unless you get some quartering involved (see Ballistician Nathan Foster's research or trad hunting expert Ed Ashby's research - Ashby actually did the initial Barnes homogeneous research in Africa)
I think you said it best, the insurance. That’s why I have the 30-06 ahead of 308. I’m also 29. Might change my mind when I’m 49 when 1 pound makes a drastic difference
I have both love them both when it comes to medium to large game it's my 30-06 or my 8mm Mauser !!
Sorry showing my age lol !!
All depends on if you want to reach out and touch something lol !!
I'm 63 and my 30-06 weighs less than my 308 !!
30 06 180 gr. Availability & reliability is there. All around best for me.
To Mark’s question of which would be better for big critters like moose…I think the difference you’d see is that when you move up to the heavy bullets that one might like for moose hunting, the 308 will start to suffer in the trajectory department. It would probably do just fine once it got there, but might be tougher to get the bullet there than with the 30-06.
The question is, do you need a heavier bullet? People in Europe have been killing moose with a 6.5x55 Swede for a long time and they’re not any heavier weight bullets than a Creedmoor.
30-06 with a 168 gr barns ttxs running "XL" grains of imr 4350 @ 3085 fps.... Mauser 98 action with a bent/welded bolt, timny trigger set at 1.3 lbs, Gentry 3 position safety a 26" #4 Douglas match barrel and a EC tuner muzzle break...... It's my poor man's 300 mag with very little recoil.... I want to build another Mauser 98 action into a 6.5 weatherby PRM so bad...... maybe you would like to do this same test with a 6.5-300 and the 6.5 weatherby RPM just because that would be really really cool.... Good pod as always guys please keep um coming.
It's interesting that you talk about being able to call your own shots as a desirable thing in a rifle/cartridge combo. I've been using a .308 through a light 18.5" carbine and if I use anything above the the 130ish grain weight the blast/recoil gets to the point where I cannot longer keep the scope on target. It really does inform how I load for it. There's no large game where I hunt so not going heavy on the projectile weight doesn't matter so much.
I would like to see 280AI in a test, still have questions about the 30-30 TSX. For Mark, I would have thought he would pick the 30-06 with a muzzle break. Great stuff either way.
Great video. 270 vs 308 please!!
Which .270, the rifle pressure .270 or the magnum pressure .270? ;)
Best outdoor POD CAST on the planet!
While you're got the cartridge comparison trend going I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of 8.6 blackout sub/super and .308. It seems to me like 8.6 might have greater merits as a woods cartridge in return for it surrending it's long range performance. But maybe it gave that up for nothing.
The next time Ryan says "Marco" please shout Polo! ;) Also with your query at the end, 7mm rem mag hah! I prefer the .284 with 150-160 grain projectile for such an application, and I live and hunt in the PNW as well. OK fine, since you aren't asking about that one to shoot to 600 on deer and bear go 6.5 PRC vs CM imo.
06 can do anything a 308 can. 308 can only do 75% of what 06 can.
As a hand loader from way back I can load for varmints to big game for my 30-06 versus most 30 caliber rifles !!
I live in a lead-free state. I own both a .308 and a 30-06. For me it boils down to this- will a 130gr ttsx out of an 18" barrel .308 expand well enough and penetrate at the range I expect? If yes- I'll bring the .308. If I need or want to push a 168gr ttsx to ensure expansion/penetration, then the 30-06 wins. I believe the 06 is the versatile winner overall, but as I get older I'm starting to appreciate lighter-for-caliber copper for anything short of elk and black bear. If I lived in a state where I could choose from all those great bonded bullets, the water would be murky.
Guys, the criticism you encountered during the 6.5 creed episode was not really valid, at least in my opinion. Your choices and analysis was, generally speaking, spot on.
1) Energy. Kinetic energy is an approximation of terminal ballistic performance. Its a way of estimating what a bullet is likely to do when it impacts an object. But without understanding how that energy is transferred into tissue damage, energy tells you absolutely nothing. It is not, in and of itself, indicative of any form of terminal ballistic performance.
Take the 9mm vs .40 S&W debate which has dominated duty pistol calibers in the law enforcement and personal protection fields over the past 30 years. The 40 absolutely has more kinetic energy than the 9mm. Nevertheless, numerous studies have shown that there is essentially no difference between the two calibers in terms of terminal effectiveness. For example, trauma surgeons cannot tell the difference in the wounds between the two. When firing the same high quality JHP rounds the 9 and 40 will see similar penetration and expansion, although the 40 will tend to expand a little more because its a wider projectile. This is why everyone has moved back to the 9mm over the past decade. With advances in bullet technology there is no real difference in lethality between the two calibers.
But how can that be so when the .40 has more energy? Clearly, energy by itself doesn't tell you anything. You have to see how that energy is transferred to the target. The primary way bullets do damage is by passing through critical biological structures, which makes penetration the most important parameter. An expanding bullet will then do more damage primarily because it will leave a wider wound channel, and therefore crush more tissue, not necessarily because it will impart more kinetic energy. A large proportion of the kinetic energy delivered by a bullet is simply absorbed by the elasticity of the target tissue and converted to heat.
You guys were absolutely correct to evaluate those two calibers by how they performed in gel, by looking first and foremost at penetration and then permanent wound cavity. So this criticism was almost completely unfounded. The only thing you probably should have added from a kinetic energy perspective was a more thorough discussion of hydrostatic shock. This is the only area where the additional energy of the 308 may not have been accounted for in your analysis. I don't know if you have the appropriate cameras, but seeing if there was a massive difference in temporary wound cavity may have been worth it, just as a way of estimating the level of hydrostatic shock. Given how similar the permanent wound cavities were I doubt there was much difference, but it would have completely alleviated this critique.
2) Penetration. A full metal jacket round that penetrates into a targets vitals will be more lethal than an expanding projectile that does not. A huge permanent wound cavity that is 3 inches deep and does not hit a major artery or organ is just a terrible and unethical wound. A full metal jacket round that penetrates right through a target is far more likely to strike something vital (especially if it tumbles). This is why people use hard cast lead projectiles for bear defense sidearms and not JHPs. They don't expand at all. What they do is penetrate. Without adequate penetration you don't have anything. You guys were 110% right to focus on it as a primary factor.
The idea that a quartering shot is somehow unethical only applies if you have a cartridge with insufficient penetration. If your 6.5 creed can shoot clear through a target animal from a quarter shot, and gives you adequate expansion and a large permanent wound cavity, then there is nothing unethical about it. This is circular reasoning at its finest.
Ultimately I think you guys did a great job. Your methodology and reasoning was sound, as were your conclusions. For some reason people are very sentimental about the 308 Winchester, probably because it is a military round. That's probably the real reason you guys were getting these negative comments.
It’s become something of a joke in our house to guesstimate the time stamp of the first mention of the 6.5 Creedmore. We do the same with pistol videos and the Glock 17 or 19.
…or the ELD-X.
Cuz, collusion with Hornady and stuff…and things.
Great podcast gentlemen!! However after shooting only a few hundred "big game animals " from pronghorn to Cape buffalo I don't remember nor did notice recoil. While it was a great discussion few options have probably changed.
Pick the rifle that fits you the best. Those are the biggest differences in the cartridges. Long action long barrel and short action short barrel. If you’re tall or get 06. If shorter or want a smaller gun 308. Personally I’m tall and primarily hunt with 06. But I still have 308s, everyone should own a 308.
Alright, so it's funny. I know it has the most factory loadings, but I'm really liking the flatter trajectory and wind drift advantages of 6.5creedmor and 30-06. And I think the 6.5 Creed is great for everything mule/ deer black bear and down and the 30-06 is great for black tail and up to elk and moose and even brown bear with the right bullets. Maybe a 30-06 vs 300wsm and /or a 300wsm vs 300 win mag would be fun topics as well. And also, and I know Ryan will hate this but I would love something comparing 284 Ackley and/or 7PRC or even the good ol' 7rem mag as well. Heck maybe find a way to throw 270win in there one of these days! Seriously though, keep up the good work! I love these podcasts and the topics and how thorough and open minded about different variables you guys are!
PS I'm very new to hunting and ballistics and was enamored with the 6.8 Western for a while til no one really picked it up and Winchester and Browning just dumped it, so maybe the 7prc has me excited now, but honestly if elk inside 400~yds is the biggest you have to worry about, why go bigger than 284 Ackley or heck, how truly awesome is that good ol' true standby, time tested and better than ever 30-06!
At the end of the day all we are really debating is the velocity difference between the 308 and 06 as the 06 has greater case capacity as they both shoot the same bullets with different recoil characteristics. That being said the 150 grain bullet doesn't meet the preferred sectional density for Deer sized game and larger. If you opt for the 165 / 168 bullet you will have much better penetration that exceeds the 150 grain bulliits as the sectional density will exceed the .240's. especially in the cup n core ammunition. If you wish to shoot 180 grain ammo and larger choose the 06. If your content with proven traditional knowledge that successfully takes 300 yard shots with pass through stick with the 308 165 grainers. The 150 grainers are basically a military bullet that the masses have clung to for various reasons but rather poorly thought out in regards to larger game taking.
Only reason to pick .30-06 over .308 in a new rifle, is nostalgia. Most new rilfes are 22" now, and your getting 90% of .30-06 power from the .308 even with 24" barrels. .308 with 165gr-168gr bullets are the sweet spot, and your killing anything in North American. I've got both, but I've recently picked up a 6.5 PRC, and man its a tack driver out the box. Waiting on deer season.