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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- “You should never use match ammo for hunting.” “Match ammo is fantastic for hunting.” The topic of match ammo for hunting may be one of the most polarizing. There are two camps with little in between. Mark Boardman and Ryan Muckenhirn tackle this hornets’ nest of a subject, talking about the differences between “match” and “hunting” ammo, provide the theory they personally subscribe to, anecdotes of times they’ve used match ammo for hunting, and touch on regions of the world where using match ammo for hunting is more common than not.
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Another great discussion. I’m in New Zealand and find myself using ELD-M bullets for pretty much all my hunting these days. They have been unbelievably good in 6.5mm.
The main thing you MUST be aware of is if your impact velocity is above 2700fps there is a chance of the projectile blowing up on the surface and not penetrating sufficiently at all, but under that velocity I have had 100% excellent results. I’m using mostly short barrels with suppressors and the slower muzzle velocity of 2670fps with the 140gr ELD-M is perfect. Expansion is great down to 1800fps and even a bit lower.
Here in NZ, neck shots on deer are the preferred option if you & your rifle are up to the job - maximum meat for the freezer is the goal. Fairly easy shot out to 200+ yards for most folks I hunt with. I guess your reasons for projectile choice are very valid though when you only get a few chances per year. Luckily for us, we can go shoot a deer every weekend if we wanted to and with regular feral goat shooting/culling you do get very confident once you have shot 100’s of game animals a year. I now order the 140gr ELD-M by the 1000!
I’m one of those in the states that goes for the neck. I don’t like tracking after the shot so it’s a good way to make sure I don’t have to
looking at the 168gr eldm . Have you got much experience with those? Was of my concerns that you mentioned here was taking a closer shot and with the high velocity of the bullet and it blowing up.
Agree. ELDM 168g in my 308 are devastating on big Sambar here in Oz
My (personal) answer to Ryan's question of "do you wait for that 'ideal' shot opportunity? And if you don't get it, do you pass on the shot?" Is yes. I will wait for the perfect opportunity and I will (and have) passed multiple times when I didn't get it.
I prefer match bullet for the type of hunting and the animal's that I pursue (typically longer"ish" ranges with a precedence on absolutely perfect placement, and by longer"ish" I mean the farthest I've ever shot is a shade under 800yds and my shortest is easily 350)
My general rule of thumb (for my cartridge selection I own, this is VERY dependent on cartridge) is that Barnes LRX will get me out to about 500-ish yards with acceptable expansion, Hornady ELD-X will get me out to about 750-ish, and ELD-M will get me out to 1000 and still have the velocity required to initiate significant expansion, but ELD-M will typically "fail" if I use it under 200yds. So for my hunting distances that I personally encounter the Hornady ELD-M will reliably expand (and be able to stay together and penetrate adequately) across my entire distance or velocity range, AND it shoots extraordinarily well in my rifle and I can get sub ½MOA groups easily if I'm doing my part so I have the highest chance of putting my bullet EXACTLY where I want it.
I don't recommend match bullets for every Hunter and every scenario, but if you're intelligent and you are aware of your bullet's capabilities and potential weaknesses then there's absolutely nothing wrong with them if used properly.
Nathan Foster of NZ has done extensive work regarding this sort of thing. You guys should invite him for an interview.
Series or single show with Ryan going through most common types of hunting bullets and giving his take on each would be much appreciated / interesting! Could listen to Ryan talk about cartridges / bullets just about all day long.
“My favorite bullet [brand/product line/weight] for caliber X is…” Assume whitetail deer at 400 yards and in.
6.5 Creedmoor
6.5 PRC
270 Winchester
6.8 Western
7mm-08
7mm PRC
308 Win
30-06
300 PRC
Does that cover the important bases? I’d be most interested in hearing Ryan’s casual but so well considered WHY for his choices. That young man does not make uninformed decisions.
Yes please!
Agree 1000% , really enjoy Ryan’s take on hunting bullets and reloading!
He's a little soft and uses words like cute ect. Other than that he has some knowledge that is useful. Definitely couldn't listen "all day".
@@Fctsdntcarebouturfeelings yeah, you are right. All day probably a little strong, would probably find my limit around 7hrs!!
Whatever words like “cute” you’ve heard him say that you aren’t a fan of… I challenge you to find me another phrase on RUclips anywhere that tops “…and that [insert any wild game] folded like a $5 tent..” , one doesn’t exist!!!
Great discussion. Im one of those kiwi lads who uses ELDM/A-Tip/TMK/EOL not exclusively but mostly. I think there are many different reasons for either way and do agree on some counts.
Here in NZ we dont have tags, so we think of passing up a shot as completely acceptable outcome. Maybe we are not under as much "pressure" to make the shot.
One thing I've never understood is the need to have a hole on both sides. I like to have an entry hole and then massive internal damage. Interesting topic, enjoyed it thoroughly.
I agree, they are petrified they won't have a blood trail, so they want a passthrough, which leads to a tracking job (sometimes/or most), which, in turn, requires a blood trail.
I can answer why someone would want a pass through, because that's what I want.
I agree with bowhunters that the basic method of killing an animal is to make a hole and let the blood out. Two holes = blood goes out faster.
I don't believe there's a magic bullet that can guarantee explosive deconstruction inside the chest cavity (maybe the bullet hits a shoulder blade before it gets there, maybe it hits a rib, maybe it hits both, maybe it hits nothing.) I *do* believe there's a bullet and velocity combination that can guarantee expansion and pass-through on a given size animal, no matter what it does or doesn't hit on the way through.
Is it a simplistic way to set priorities? Maybe. But I've heard too many stories about bullets grenading on the outside of a shoulder blade to take that chance.
As a LE officer in the mountains in Colorado, I encounter a lot of injured deer and elk from being struck by cars. I carry a 308 precision rifle and our ammunition of choice is Hornady tap, 168 ELDM. Before we switched to Hornady, we had 168 Federal gold medal match.
I have lost count of how many animals I have shot with match ammunition, but it always seems to do the job.
Interesting fact, burger hunting bullets, have thinner jackets than their match bullets. I think their hunting bullets are nothing more than match bullets that say hunting on the box and people love them.
Their hunting bullets are either chemically bonded, or have an internal ring that holds the core in place.
Depends on if the match ammo is considered 'expanding' or not. Some states require expanding ammo in the same way some require straight-walled cartridges or minimum caliber/energy for certain game.
You said it really well. Exactly this point is something they should have brought up in the video. Most match bullets are not sold as expanding bullets. In my country the hunting regulation requires that we use expanding bullets on game (with some exceptions). If I tested particular match bullets in my gun to verify that they do expand it might be ok, but it would be a legal grey zone that I rather stay away from.
I've used 6.5 Grendel for varmints for over 10 years. In following the online forums, many of the other users swear by Hornady Black ELD-M 123gr for boar and coyote, even deer. I use the ELD-M strictly as a target load, but there's no denying how effectively many use it on critters.
On the other hand, one of the most intensely effective projectiles in my varmint experience is the 106gr TMK. Defender Ammunition specifically markets their loading as a "do everything" for the Grendel. My other load is a 123SST loaded by Druid Hill Armory. That's what I consider a 'proper' deer/pig/coyote load.
Many of the ELD-M only camp swear the SST doesn't work. I've never had an SST fail to work when I put it in the correct spot.
It's interesting how the camps of thought seem to feed on themselves.
It would be amazing to see a ballistics gel test at 500 yards with both a hunter and match grade bullet
There are many different constructed match bullets just like many differently built bullets labeled with the word "hunting". Testing one side by side with one, doesnt really say much besides how that one particular bullet compared against that other particular bullet
Barbour creek has done some testing like that
The match bullet does what it always does and blows to pieces
@@Paul-q3m7k i would disagree. Like any expanding bullet there is an velocity window where they work. Push them too fast and they shed weight rapidly, get them at the right speed and they just expand, go too slow and they fail to expand. No different in that sense than any other expanding bullet, labelled for hunting or not.
ultimate reloaders shows that the eldm do ok in ballistic gel reguardless what these 2 "experts" say. is it better than a hunting bullet no but it will work. sometimes you have to use what you can find is what these guys dont understand. also they hated on the 270 only to find its better than the 3006 (shows how much they know)
I’m with you guys. I love the results I have gotten from years of using the Barnes bullets. Never fails
The TTSX are simply fantastic. I've started loading them all the way down to my ultralight Grendel and they shoot tiny little groups and put whitetails down quick.
I am torn on the Barnes. I think they carry a higher risk for an uninformed hunter to f.. up.
Barrels are getting shorter due to suppressors getting more common. Combine that with a cartridge using slower heavier projectiles and your reliable expansion max shooting distance gets uncomfortably short. A really good worst case example would be a 9.3x62 Mauser out of a 20‘
@@nikos6220 Agreed. I don't understand the fascination with heavy bullets for whitetail and mule deer sized game. Any well-constructed bullet over 90 grains is plenty. I start the 115s at around 2550 out of the bolt gun(I don't consider it a safe AR load). That keeps me above 1900 fps to 300, though I limit shots with this rifle to 250. I'm back east, so most of our shots are under 100 yards, unless we are sitting in a stand with long sight distance. I will be taking my 7 PRC to those, previously I used my .308 with an Accubond load.
I have no personal experience with elk sized or larger game, nor Western spot, stalk, shoot a long ways in the wind style hunting. :)
Any time if hit with barnes the critter was recovered. Folks know your own limitations hunt smart and ethically.
@@diggernash1 I have killed black tail at 200 yards with a 55gr barnes from a 223 very dead moved 25 30 yards. Had full pass trough on a broad side shot. I'm of the school that bullet constion is the most important factor not that it can't be done the other way its just mot how I was brought up.
Some monolithic bullets are designed to open at much lower velocities than others, so it is important to choose the right bullet for the cartridge and situation to be encountered. Some Cavity Back copper bullets are designed for intermediate cartridges like 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and 300 Blackout and can open as low as 1400 fps. That dramatically increases the effective range of those cartridges. To give an example, with the 6.8 SPC a Cavity Back 105 or 120 grain bullet has an effective hunting range of about 400 yards. The Hornady 100 CX bullet, on the other hand, needs about 2000fps to open. According to Hornady's range/velocity carts, expansion occurs only at distances under 200 yards.
Shot a big body Manitoba whitetail with a 140 grain nosler RDF handload out of my 6.5 creedmoor at 196 yards.
Dropped like a stone, kicked twice and that was it. Neck shot, right under his chin.
Great subject. Very interesting and definitely worth a deeper look. I think we all should thank the bullet manufacturers for making some pretty awesome hunting projectiles. There were days long ago when you shot the, deer, elk, moose or bear with what you had in the weapon at the time.
You're trying too hard not to offend. Stop walking on egg shells. Here is my controversial take... Bonded, Monolithic and Partitions are perfect bullets out to 500 or so yards. To get a ELD-X or any match bullet to expand properly you have to be taking a pretty far shot at an animal. The distance to get those match bullets to expand correctly are in my opinion too far of a shot. What I would call an unethical shot. Of course... long range hunting is all the craze right now, so this comment will not be popular.
Hmm, I agree with the first part. Bonded, Monos and Partition style bullets are effective to 400m, 500m potentially even further, depending on the BC and velocity, etc.
I wouldn't say X distance or more is unethical, personally I'd say the distance where the bullet no longer effectively kills OR where the shooter is no longer capable of accurately shooting the vitals of that animal is the Maximum range of where it goes from ethical to unethical. For instance, I probably could hit a shot at 500m, but personally I don't think I'm ready further than 300m as of my current skill. So for me an unethical shot would be 300m+ until I'm capable of consistently hitting shots out to even further than 500m.
To your point about the Match bullets. I've taken multiple Gemsbok within 100m, as close as around 50m with 168gr ELD-M going 2750fps in my .308. Furthest I've taken anything was a Warthog at 308m with the ELD-M. On the Warthog it was a clean passthrough and it ran about 50m. The Gemsbok ran less than 50m, usually about 20 paces and are dead by the time you walk the 100-150m to get there... that's been my experience. Most warthogs within 150m have dropped in their tracks.
I've had great results with the ELD-M, around 10 Gemsbok taken, BUT - if I was invited to go hunt somewhere, I'd go out of my way to find proper premium bullets like the AccuBond, TTSX, etc. Why? Guarantee. While I've had great results with the ELD-Ms, I've also always had the time to wait for the perfect opportunity or to not shoot at all. If I was bound to just a couple of days of hunting, I'd want something where I know that any angle, I can take that shot without issue.
🤔 Either their are alot of "Copy Cat" Videos, or their is a "Coordinated Effort" to move "Public Opinion" in a specific direction on this issue? I say the latter! Now, who would "profit" the most by trying to sell this ridiculous idea? That would be a company that is making the Most "New Cartridges", with a Limited Amount of Available Factory Hunting Ammunition Offerings for them! Now who is pumping out the "Most New Cartridges" and making alot of this "Match Grade Ammunition"? Exactly! Is it cheaper to make a "Target Bullet", rather than a Good "Bonded Bullet"? Yep! So, does that Company have a "Vested Financial Interest" in doing so? Yep! Now, Who does that sound like to you? Perhaps your "Favorite Company" (Sarcasm) that makes alot of copper bullets??? You see, many companies are now willing to Lie to us (just for short term profit), and even sell out their country by pushing products of a known U.S. adversary (like "Chinese Products") too! Does that sound like Anyone Else we know here? Exactly! These are Evil Times Austin and it never hurts to bring a "Health Dose" of skepticism to the table! If you want to know the Truth, just follow the money trail! So, Who Sponsored and Wrote the Bill to Outlaw Lead Ammunition (Hummm...)? But, following the money trail is sometimes easier said than done, but some things are obvious to those with a brain! 👨🏫 Especially on this topic! 😡
🤔 Oh, I forgot to mention another Bill before Congress Right Now, that "Prohibits Hunting" in Certain ("Listed") States! Yes, you heard me right! ☹ You may want to check and see if your State is on the list and if you've been "sold out" by your local politicians or some of these "Corporations" doing business in your state? 😡 Traitors! 🤬
@@marcmoore4115your statement is 100% on the money.
I have the extremely good fortune to be able to hunt on my own property for whitetails, bobcats, coyotes, and other various critters. Since I can hunt them very accessibly and often I am also afforded the luxury of waiting for my "perfect shot".
However, if I were to draw an elk tag out west, I'd take either a Hornady CX or a Barnes LRX and I'd accept no substitute.
I might get that "perfect" shot and an ELD-M would have been totally fine, but I might also only get a decently hard quartering shot and it be the only opportunity that presents itself. If that's the case I want to prepare for the worst case scenario instead of hoping for perfect. It's also worth making the argument of "bringing enough gun"
My 7PRC that I have can keep a 160gr CX bullet within the correct velocity band for expansion out to 600yds pretty handily, 700 would be pushing it. I regularly shoot that 7PRC out to 1000+ yds (again extremely fortunate to own property where I can hunt and shoot) but I DON'T shoot with the 160gr CX very often (I only own 2 boxes because it's not my ammo of choice for that rifle)
So at that point the rifle and bullet combination is completely capable beyond the range where I am comfortable in that scenario.
270 WSM 145g ELDX doing 3200 +- at 150 yards on bull elk . Did not take two steps be fore down and dead. The bullet can work on closer shots.
When it comes to whitetail, exit wounds are underrated.
When hunting thick woods in the east and northeast an exit wound can be the difference between finding your deer and not finding it. It’s so thick in a lot of places they can bed down 50 yds from you and be extremely difficult to find.
Another great 10min talk. Opens up for different thoughts and to either add or not to the knowledge on works or doesn’t work for a person.
Right now my wife uses the Barnes LRX 127gr for her 6.5rpm. Her firearm really likes it. She made a very nice shot at 111yds on her first deer last season.
I bought a 6.5 prc. Tried the Norma blue tip shoots it ok. But the Barnes 127gr LRX lights outs.
As for my .270 it likes the terminal ascent the best.
Also was preached by my grandfather “get as close to the animal as possible, make the cleanest shot possible to put the animal out of their misery as quick as possible.
The Hornady Match bullets are excellent for long-range hunting. I hunt the ag fields in South Carolina and shots range from 100 yds to 1200 yds. The longest kill shot was 1102 yds with the original 7 mag / 162 gr Amax. The bullet would expand down to 1300 fps. Hornady won't give out that info today with the ELDMs. I've used the ELDMs on mule deer, antelope, caribou, kudu, and other plains of Africa. I've re-chambered to the 7x300 win mag now. The bullet will shred the vitals and leave a silver-dollar exit wound. If I knew how to post a video, you can see a kill shot at 1065 yds and a test shot at 1210 yds. I also shoot the 108 gr ELDMs in my 243 with a 600 yd kill shot, which is the max range for the .243. The long-range game takes a tremendous about of practice and patience. I've worn out 5 barrels over the years. I enjoy the show and keep up the good work.
Interesting to hear your experience, why the ELD-M, better expansion than ELD-X?
@@bradh8391 thinner jacket thickness, eldx is thicker than eldm of equivalent sized
The old timer who build my first rifle shot competition with Dave Hart and Walt Berger. He built race car engines for dirt track racing so Dave invited him to come up and taught him how to chamber precision rifles. He built my first 7mag rifle and the load development with the 162 Amax. His longest was 1140 yd with the 162 Amax. The thin jacket of the Amax would penetrate about 2 inches and go off like a grenade only to liquidity heart and lungs and yet the bullet base would leave an exit wound. My first long-range shot was 504 yds which was a piece of cake. So I eased out to 600,700,800,900 and 1102 yd. I switch to the 180 gr Eldm with the higher bc to fight the wind, less spin drift, and more energy on target. My 7 mag and the .243 will shoot .03 @ 100 yds. The new 7x300 win mag is shooting .07 with the 190 gr Berger @3052 fps with 72.6 grs of Retumbo. The goal for the upcoming season is to break the 1200 yd barrier. I have an old cartridge you need to talk about on the show. The 7x30 Waters. It's a 30-30 case necked down to a 7mm. It's a 200 yd cartridge max with a Nosler 120 gr Ballistic Tip. Have fun guys! Thanks
@@jimmoseley2983 Wow! That 7x30 waters sounds cool!
Explore this topic further. A few weeks back I did a search on this subject as well and was surprised to see lots of people swearing by the effectiveness of match ammo.
Would like to hear more about the modern smokeless powders, if Ryan is down we love to hear him talk about reloading so he’s probably got plenty of knowledge regarding burn rates and other details that make one powder different from another? I feel like I hear a lot about reloading but when it comes to powder it’s more like “pick one from the list and try it”, which is fine enough but the lists can be long. If anyone else is interested gimmie a thumbs up.
10 minute talk at 31:36 lol. Love u guys!
As we say in the military, situation dictates. I think the bullet expansion on which particular part of the animal you will target is the most important. With all the angle variations possible hunting out west or mountains, yalls preference makes perfect sense. I could also see a significant argument for match ammo especially in the southeast when private property borders affects your ability to retrieve game and you typically only have 2 angles. Especially for those who do box stand hunting, I can see match ammo on a head, neck, or high shoulder being super preferential in close and out to longer distances on food plots.
This was one of the most interesting talks yet. Good work guys!
Heck yeah - appreciate you tuning in!
I’ve never seen a deer walk off a Core Lokt. People get way too ate up with projectiles and penetration and “power”. Good shot placement with reasonable distances is all that matters.
In my experience. high BC, match bullets don’t have an advantage until 500 m or beyond and I simply just don’t shoot game animals at that distance.
I don’t know why I love this podcast so much considering that a lot of the episodes are centered around hunting and I have never hunted anything in my life. I just like shooting and guns. I genuinely do not understand why I find it interesting to listen to people who actually do hunt talk about a hobby that I do not participate in and I actually think is quite boring. Granted… around my area the only hunting most people are doing is for white tail and to me that’s just a hard stop. I don’t have the patience to sit quietly in the woods, not smoking a cigarette, not talking to my buddy, not actually firing my gun for hours at a time for the chance to maybe possibly perhaps have a good deer come into view. Also, where I live you are not allowed to hunt with rifle. Only with bow or shotgun, and maybe muzzle loader but everyone here that I know just does bow or shotgun. There’s also some turkey hunting and I’m sure one could hunt birds of some kind. It’s one of those hobbies that seems cool from the outside looking in. I do however have a desire to try hog hunting. As I understand it, hog hunting is pretty straight forward. One just sets up in a farmers field and overlooks another field and waits for the hogs to show. I wouldn’t feel guilty about shooting hogs so much given that they are invasive and destructive. I have some moral qualms about shooting a deer when I have absolutely zero desire to harvest it. I was taught that shooting a deer and just leaving it is very unsporting and not in the spirit of hunting so I wouldn’t do it. Anyone have experience hunting hogs? Is it as straight forward as it looks?
Hey Julian! First off - thanks a ton for listening in! Glad you enjoy the podcasts. Completely respect everything you mentioned in your comment. Where are you looking to hunt hogs? Would love to help answer any questions you may have about it.
@@VortexNation I don’t think they’ve made it up near me yet. I’m located in NY and I haven’t heard or seen anything about them being this far north. I hear they can be found as close as NC or TN though which isn’t too far of a drive. I went to NC recently to check out the Wilmington area and whatnot and it was about a 12hr drive. I have no real plans for it yet… it’s just that sort of thing my brother and my buddies and I always toss around as a fun trip to take.
Hunt in the uk and solely eldm in both my 243 and 65prc. Both rifles are for hunting and range use. And well under sub moa at 1000 yards. Initially it was more for convenience of one load per rifle, but they just dont let me down on deer.
Love the podcast btw. Brilliant listening too and from work everyday!
sub MOA at 1000 yards: well, you should compete in F-class because this place you in the top 10 easy.
@@gildasguerin far more to fclass then a submoa rifle! I may be "capable" of shooting a "small group, but reading the wind consistently at that range is something i have yet to master!
@@thomasgordon935 : the national champions of F-class may shoot 1/4 MAO at 100 yards but they shoot around 1 MAO at 1000 yards. Not 1/4 MAO (because of wind, velocity dispersion etc). The 10 on the target is 10 inch. So if you shoot "well sub-MOA at 1000 yards" you are easily in the top 3.
@@gildasguerin i think your misunderstanding my comment. The ammo and rifle is capable of shooting well sub moa if conditions allow it. And it has done it multiple times. My abilities to read wind etc mean that my groups arent always "well under sub moa". Me shooting a 5 shot group in good conditions is by no means comparable to an fclass shooter completing a 20 shot string for record with time constraints
I like both solid copper expanding and something like the eldm
Copper for the plan b shot , eldm for the long range.
The guys at Hornady can't be honest, corporate policy
Going through ammo selection process on my Veil Wideland 308. It loves the Barnes TTSX 130 grain. Thank you for continuously picking topics that are front and center for me. I have used Federal GMM (MI Whitetail) that were accurate but did not expand or leave blood trail. Only reason I found the deer is because I watched where it laid down. No hair, no blood. No more match ammo for me.
Not all match ammo is the same. Eldm ELDX and tmk are all proven bullets that put down big game
My personal preference is Sierra Gameking projectiles. The best performance I've ever shot!
I hunt in South Texas where tracking can be a problem in dense scrub brush. Whatever happens, I want an exit would and a blood trail. I am transitioning to a new 270 and testing monolithic vs bonded bullets for accuracy. The winner gets hunted next season. Range max for me, 400 yards.
I shot a 250 lb caribou at 200- 250 yards with a hornady 123 ELD-M 6.5 grendel out of an 18 inch ar-15 and that dude dropped on the spot didn't take on step it was like an off switch. The bullet went through both shoulders heart and lung and I found the separated jacket under the skin on the other side. So I'm sold on the match bullets being capable in the right hands.
Often times as a young hunter I would use whatever I could get my hands on. If it would fit in my Tikka T3 300WSM I'd send it. I killed dozens and dozens of deer/antelope/elk and even a bear and Bison this way before I began to learn more about ammunition. I think attitude and accuracy have alot to do with it. I was trained to shoot by my dad who was a marine scout sniper and life long outdoorsman. Maybe I just had a knack of putting the bullet in the right place.
Enjoy the info and differing opinions.
Personally being in Mt and chasing elk I use Barnes, Partitions and Accubond LR, depending on rifle. One of the things I didn't hear you mention is, if you make that poor 1st shot and have to follow up. I want the ability to take that quick fleeting shot at close to end things as quick as possible!!!
I've seena few balistic gel test between the ELD-X & ELD-M and other bullets that are similar like SMK & the SGKj. I think that most people are going to be surprised at the results of expansion of the match bullets. Right or wrong the numbers don't lie. I hope you do the gel n water jug test with both ans show the results to us.
can you guys please do a comparison between the 7prc vs the 300wsm iv been hunting with a 308 for the past 5 years and iv been thinking of getting something a little more sexy the wife is being very generous in letting me purchase another rifle. so i was hopeing mark and ryan can help me decide between the two. please 🙏🏼
We shot a lot of animals with match bullets 30+ years ago. While it wont be my first choice I would do it in a pinch without too many issues. Put it behind the shoulder and watch them "bang flop".
My go to bullet fot hunting is the Accubond range, it just gives that extra bit of insurance.
Shot placement and accuracy always wins
I shoot a 6.5 creedmoor, 140 grain EldM bullets for whitetail deer. I made shots from 30 yards all the way out to 700 yards. All good double lung shots. All shots were complete pass-through shots. I haven't hit the shoulder yet with them, so I'm not sure what that would do. I would like to add for the 700 yard shot I took, I have practiced at the distance a lot and felt very confident in my ability at that range with that bullet and gun.
I personally have had great success with the 140 EldM bullets out of my 6.5 creedmoor and plan to continue using it.
Federal trophy bonded tip/terminal ascent bullet is the perfect bullet. lead front with solid copper rear and good BC. expands with deep penetration. would say nosler partition but their BC isnt as good
I process all my own deer and some for friends and have now for 40+ years. I have used every imaginable bullet to take whitetail deer from 22lr to 30-06. What I have found is that any bullet can be effective in a given situation but very few do everything well in all situations. 22lr, 40 grain solid at 50 yards on a broadside, behind the shoulder shot tumbles through the lungs and exits. The deer not being spooked by the sound of a "cannon" simply walks 10 to 20 yards and lays down. The wound channel through the lungs looked like a hollow point went through! 30-06 with 150 grain flat nose bullet at 500 yards broadside broke both front legs and yet required a follow up head shot. When processing the animal the wound channel was through the vest cavity just below the heart and even after breaking the leg on entry did not damage the heart or lungs enough to cause a quick clean kill. Most bullets designed to perform at extended ranges will simply desntagrate at close ranges and bullets designed to hold togeather at close ranges won't expand at extended ranges. Shot placement is critical and bullet selection is equally critical. Most important is knowing when to take the shot and when to pass, whether because of distance, angle, skill or equipment.
Most manufacturers website say they don’t recommend match bullets for hunting
I basically hunt whitetail deer. I have 2 .308 win rifles that I use. One I have set up to shoot the 150gr Ameeican whitetail load. The other is set up to shoot 165gr full boar. I use the 165gr when I prefer a pass through shot. The 150gr I have never experienced a pass through shot, but the deer fell where they were shot.
Shot placement is key. I've used 120gr hp in 7mm-08 for years at 3000 fps. Always behind shoulder always dead deer. Never through shoulder.
Worked great for head shot as well.
No meat lose at all
All about taking a shot only when the shot is perfect and if not don't take the shot .
This really depends on the bullets we’re talking about as not all hunting or match bullets are equal. I’ll take an EldM over Remington coreloks any day of the week, while I’ll take winchester supreme ballistic tips over sierra match king hp’s. I and my friends/family have lost more deer with coreloks than all other bullets combined, despite them being a “hunting bullet”. I’ve never had to track, much less lost, anything shot with an eldm, and have never lost, but had to track deer shot with the win supremes. I’ve been told horror stories about the smk’s penciling straight through deer and elk. I stick to loading eldm’s due to cost since I hunt with my target rifles and shoot them a lot. If I traveled to a hunt and forgot my box of eldm’s there are a bunch of hunting bullets I’d grab off a shelf and go with, if all I could get were coreloks or smk’s, I’d buy a few steaks and enjoy the scenery.
Anecdote: my only 2 deer I've taken were with .223, 62gn BTHP running at ~2790. A retired marine I was with took a deer with 55gn FMJ, 5.56 from his AR.
From what I can tell, placement is everything. My selection was my reloaded ammo, I know I keep a 1" or small group.
Using an fmj to hunt is just plain dumb.
@@TMar129 the deer didn't think so.
Four important questions, game species, shot placement, cartridge, distance.
I use hunting bullets mainly Hornady
I run the Swift Scirocco with the belief it a best of both worlds philosophy. I have taken multiple Mule Deer, Elk and a Moose running a 180gr out of a 300RUM. I think confidence in accuracy is so important. Bullet performance only matters if the Bullet hits the target. We live in an amazing time where we have extremely accurate ammunition that do well in both.
Great bullet for sure.
Mark B.
What a tough conversation boys.....
After finding random ballistic tips in my grind meat and losing entire antelope quarters due to them being peppered with lead bullet fragments, I have reluctantly decided to hunt only with copper bullets. ELD-Ms and AMAXs have been devastating on deer and antelope, but I don't want to take the chance of feeding lead- peppered game meat to my kids.
See you next time when you talk about the 416 rem mag
Very interesting discussion. East coast hunter, cup & core. Woods under 200 yards, farm typically 100 - 300 yards. I blood trail.
Over the years ive been presented with both shots and an accurate neck shot collect a black tail buck that was bedded in brush 30 06 severed the spine he fllopped. But i do preffer a monolithic in and out trough the boiler room. And i have seen deer shot right trough the heart still run 2 300 feet idk how but i can happen. Apon desecration the heart was eviscerated into 3 peices. Like ryan i wont take the sniper shots fron 800 1000 yards one im not shure i could and 2 the bullets i use will not expand at those distances. I keep everything with 400 and if i dont have a good rest ill just have to keep stacking.
I was gonna say that among the same calibers, hunting rounds would b more ethical to longer distances, where match grade ammo would come in is at long distance with an overkill caliber for the game ur hunting. So hunting deer with a 6.5 creedmoor hunting round u can take it like 500yards, while competition ammo would b less. But if ur hunting deer with 28 nos, a competition round will give u the advantage shooting out near 1000 yards compared to hunting rounds because so many variables start to have exponential impact on shot placement. In this case, competition 28 nos is still ethical ethical because it will most definitely drop a deer even if it’s not a round designed to ethically hunt
Seems the slug construction argument is effected by the distance you are hunt, what you are hunting and what caliber you are shooting. A marginal caliber for an animal (say 223 on deer out to 250 yards), the monolithic bullet might be needed in order to get that slug into the boiler room. But a non marginal (say 30-06 on deer at 300 yards) then either slug will work fine.
Never had a Hornady 123 SST fail on deer at 2500 fps out of my CVA pistol at 70 yards. One shot.
I think one of the guys for the discussion of hunting South Africa where they like the head/neck area for placement would be Piet Malan from Impact Shooting
I'm form cali and been using solid copper for my while hunting career. Also have always taken a shoulder or behind shot and had nothing but success.
I'm sticking with the tried and true performance of the nosler partition until the very end (of legality). I'm hardly a fanboy of nosller, it is simply that i can put 5 that touch each other at 100yds outta a 1999 model 700 BDL ss chambered in 300 rum.These bullets have never let me down when I have done my job - and offered forgiveness the few times I haven't. It actually makes me kinda ill that soon I'll be forced to find a homogeneous alternative as I've never shot anything but bonded bullets out of this rifle. I'm not against these copper bullets, I just don't like having to fix something that isn't broken
Good dialogue... I'm not a hunter, but listen to learn around shooting topics, in general. I don't know if you have covered this, but as it relates to this subject, I'm interested if hunters may carry multiple ammo/bullet types for different distances/scenarios and select the best choice just prior to firing the rifle. I imagine this would be difficult in terms of variations in zeros, but maybe it's just is an extension of the dope for the rifle based on the different ammo. If you haven't covered this, please consider the topic. If I were going to hunt, based on what I hear in yours' and other's content, I would likely explore this, potentially breaking into tiers based on distance. I'd be interested in other hunter's perspectives if they would like to leave a comment.
Can you PLEASE do a 10 minute talk on the 350 Legend and whether it is causing sufficient game hemorrhaging? Some people say they have lost deer due to poor blood trail, including a close friend of mine. I suspect this has a lot to do with cartridge selection.
Give us this talk for 1+ hours…and also more about bonded bullets
Ive had barnes tsx expand at 1500 fps, that said, i hunt with match ammo. Where i deer hunt 800+ yard shots are common
Limiting myself to 500 and under, match bullets aren’t a necessity but good bullets and practice are necessities.
Bonded bullets for hunting, If you can't find a premium bonded bullet that shoots well in your rifle with all the different sizes and configurations, there may be something wrong.
In California, so, TTSX in 30.06, 6.5 C, and 6.8 SPC, all hand loaded. Match bullets are for varmitting. My 2c. Hey, can we get some favorite camp recipes from your guests? I have my own traditions but I’d love to try different things in my Dutch oven…
Wat ar you thinking about the .338 Federal ?
I'm personally a monolithic guy. However, there really isn't any reason to use match bullets for hunting. There are so many bullets that are designed specifically for hunting, there is no shortage of options. For example, why use the ELDM, when you can use the ELDX?
I am ex military marine.. I did a lot of sniper work. But I went to my first match today Is as a civilian july eighth.. My sons brought my rpr 338 .. I brought my mark twelve. Chambered in 223 wild with a green mountain barrel heav. I also use this rifle for coyote hunting Here in maine . For my very first match ever.
I scored fourth. Against nine of the top ranked people in our state. And I miss second place by four points. This was four hundred and forty yards. I used 55 grain Hornady . That's what the rifle likes to eat accurately. I also run sixty four. So between hunting and match I don't know. If your weapon likes it eats it well shoot it well stick with it 7:50
It is my opinion that match bullets are alright for
Coyote or other Varmits. But i would not use them for Hog's or Deer or anything larger. If you happen to hit a solid bone the Match bullet is more likely to wound and not kill the animal. Shot placement is Very important but because of bullet flight time that perfect shot may change from the time you pull the trigger and the bullet flight time to the animal.
Silver ballistics Tips 1 , TTSX 2nd
4:54 mark says it all.
I think from a slightly different perspective - Whats more important ; The hunters ability to place the shot? This would mean it wouldn't matter what you use. OR using Hunting ammo in an attempt to cover all bases? From my angle most people should spend more time on shot placement but do their best to ensure maximum damage.
I have been using barnes ammo for 15+ years. It just proves itself over and over and over again. I have used match ammo aswell through 1 season and was not impressed. The critters died, but did not drop nearly as fast. With that being said, i could not agree more with ryan when he said whatever the gun likes is the best bullet. IMHO if you have the ability, pick the bullet you want to shoot and taylor the powder grain or type to shoot well out of your rifle. Theres nothing like the confidence in picking up a rifle and knowing what you point it at will drop in its tracks.
I'd like to know your experience or thoughts on using aluminum tipped bullets like the Alco or hornady projectiles. Also thoughts about rebated boat tails, again like Alco projectiles or potential designs like a pointed boat tail with rebate/skirt style to reduce the air drag coefficient on the rear of said projectiles.
The ELDM is the best hunting bullet I’ve ever used.
Agreed.
So, match (or thinner jacketed) bullets at 600+, and monolithics under? And if he's 700-800yds, you should have time to slip an eldx in the chamber. Also, going in behind shoulder with match ammo and thru the shoulders with the solid?
Eldm
I thought for sure yall would compare the ELD-X to the ELD-M. But i am curious about those barnes bullets though
I think the only answer to the debate is..... it depends. Context is everything, dogma (at least when it comes to ammunition) is dangerous. Never has there been a topic where the following statement was more relevant, "Your mileage may vary".
Yes, please explore more. I am more of a traditional hunting bullet user.
I always use match ammo, I’d rather wait for the shot than take the chance of just wounding an animal. Hollow points work great, you have to know your limits…
The problem is that this discussion is always oversimplified.
Any choice of suitable hinting bullet depends on caliber choice, target species, hunting situation/style and especially target distance.
"The xyz bullet is the best for hunting" is always going to be a stupid and ultimately empty statement.
I only use bonded bullets like Swift A-Frame or Norma Oryx Bullets for hunting these days. I found that even though the Match bullets put my game down, I lost half the meat. Note that I am exaggerating for effect here. But what really happens is this. The Match bullet would cause the meat around the wound channel to become Jelly, loosing me about 4 pounds of meat. Tne bonded bullet only caused that when I hit bone, and then only 1.5 Pounds of meat...
Partition, Accubond, Interlock
Match ammo performs too unpredictably in the animal. It’s made for punching paper, not terminal ballistics in game. This is why LE snipers were urged 15yrs ago to quit using the old Fed. Gold Medal Match stuff for duty use.
A lot of the “ big boys” hunt with only match grade ammo. I have listened to them and ask questions. They don’t feel like the Nosler ABLR’s are accurate enough for long range hunting. Mine all shoot sub moa. They want a bullet that shoots a better group at range verses a big mushrooming bullet. Also they are not afraid of a bullet that breaks up like a Berger. Some of these guys are amazing hunters and take game all over the world. It’s seems there’s a new train of thought vs old school on bullet performance? I’m not saying who’s right or wrong just making an observation.
I think you need more Vortex branding in the shot.
I'd NEVER use a match bullet to hunt, but then I don't take shots at game where the cartridge is running out of gas. If you're taking 700yd shots at game, use a magnum, that's what they're for. Can't even begin to understand why anyone would want to walk a 6.5mm projectile out of a short-action case into an elk/etc at distances greater than 500yd, aside from wanting to take shots well outside their capabilities and hoping the higher BC's fill in their skill gap. Even if the match bullets do reliably expand at 1500fps and under (never seen it myself) why not just use more powder and make sure that bullet is impacting 500fps higher?
Idk, I'm not a proponent of ELR hunting. It's a great way to wound animals and never find them. Well, I find them every season, but it's game someone else shot in the leg/jaw/gut weeks ago. Most hunters are not skilled enough to go more than 50-100yd outside their caliber's max point blank, even with modern optics.
I believe we hunt with non match ammo cause a great many of us started hunting lever action 3030...not a long range hunting rifle and graduated to a sporterized old military 30-06
Ryan, what your max range on mule deer with the 130gr ttsx in your 300 weatherby?
This sounds like a bunch of fudd loar with guys who aren't very accurate shooters
I know right, shot placement is everything.
Maybe they just don't want to enter the 223 match bullet cult when there are other combinations that work well?
I too want a entry and exit wound.3006 the tried and true Remington corelokt 180 gr factory rd bought 10 boxes really cheap when a shop was closing.never disappointed. 8mm Mauser Speer 170gr for deer deluxe performance for such a affordable bullet.200 gr 8mm Speer at 2500 +for elk 285 paces .went clean through.elk dead after running 25 ft.9.3x62 270 gr Speer 80 yd kill on a elk .dead immediately meat damage minimal. 7mm mag 175 gr partition never has failed to penetrate completely.i don't work for Speer but they are my favorite bullet.honady interlock #2 but only because the Speer is such a great buy.hornady 2 volume reloading manuals are the absolute best
Bar none
Why i should use Matchammo for Hunting my Hunting Ammo shoots Groups like Matchammo but is a regular Hunting Bullets
308 130gn Barnes TTSX
30.06 150gn Barnes TTSX
7x64 140gn Barnes TTSX
7x57R 120gn Barnes TTSX
243Win 80gn Barnes TTSX
8x68s 160gn Barnes TTSX
They all shoot 5 Shot Groups well under MOA the most under half MOA and work on Game as i want it,
From 1.May this Year till today i have Shot 3 1 Year old Red Stag and 3 Roe Bucks they Work
Yes i handload and tailor the Ammo to my Rifles and that from my Dad
Had a friend say he wouldn't use an ELD-M, so he pulled the factory 180's and "Mexican Matched" a 180 Berger "Hunting" bullet instead.....
I have Shot Whitetail deer out to 200 with a 147 ELD-M at 2750 out of my 20" 6.5 PRC, dead is dead...planned on shooting a Black Bear as well, but the bears didn't cooperate 😢
Also, shot a Mule deer buck at 465yds with a Barnes 180 out of my 30 Gibbs @ 2900, 1700 impact velocity, it went 250yds with a double lung hit.... 8:30
Berger VLD Target actually have a thicker jacket than the VLD Hunting.
I’m kinda surprised steam didn’t come out of Ryan’s ears on this one
Match bullets ado a pretty good job when predator hunting.
Please do a deep dive into this topic. I am in the Match bullets for hunting camp personally.
The old hor a max had speed limit because of the jacket
I fully disagree with the theory of "full energy dump" into an animal. This is NOT are useful goal IMHO. I much prefer a bullet to hold together, expand, and fully penetrate, giving me an exit wound. For ethical hunting, my go-to bullet styles are Accubonds, Partitions, TTSX or TSX bullets. Old school bullets like Interlocks, Game Kings and Ballistic Tips are good bullets in many cases. However, I am not a fan of Berger or Match bullets for hunting.
Accuracy is more important. 💯