I would really like to hear Ryan and Ron Spomer talk about cartridges. This is the level-headed, experienced, and informed type of discussion we all need. All the while, entertaining.
@Vortex Nation Mark B. is definitely the unsung hero of the podcast. He's like your buddy who always has extra ear and eye pro for whoever forgets. He keeps the wheels on the train turning.
If cheap is yer criteria, then 22lr is king lol. 6.5 destroys 308 at any real range, if you never take shots past 200 then yea 308 all day but 500+ 6.5 is another league, 308 might as well be flintlock.
I went with .308 because I wanted a 20-inch barrel. On an old podcast, Ryan recommended starting with the bullet you want to hunt with and develop a load for it. I agree with you both that the right bullet for the job and practice is far more important than what cal. you use. Great info, guys!
Been looking hard at 6.5cm for awhile and the other new cartridges for a new rifle, and it does seem like the conversation should REALLY be about bullets for sure!
Another great podcast. Thanks guys. I've got a 6.5, but not a .308. I've been a 30-06 guy, more than a .308 forever, and the 30-06 has always been considered a .308 magnum to me. This podcast has opened my eyes a bit more on the .308.
@@texpatriot8462you can literally handload 308 to match 3006 up until like 200 grain bullet weights, then the 3006s greater case capacity has the advantage.
@@chanoleyva8584there is no situation where a .308 can match a 30-06 loaded to equal pressures. It simply has more room for powder. If you said it’s an irrelevant difference at the lighter bullet weights, I’d agree with that.
.308 is more akin to a 30/06 short. The higher pressures of the .308 make the performance very similar especially when you handload 308. The 308 is a no Brainer imo
Just get both imo. I agree with you entirely btw. But there’s nothing wrong with having and being proficient in both, and I think that should be everyone’s goal
@@traceyevans2757except that’s a 2nd gun 2nd ammo type. And you’re not really gaining much other than more available ammo types. So maybe just go 308 and who cares that it drops a little less and drifts a little more. If you’re dialing and holding for wind. It’s not like you’re making pop shots. It’s not sub 300 blk vs 55g 223 at distance. What difference does it make if you hold 2 mils or 3 mils for wind when you know what you’re holding for your round anyway. So I see why and don’t disagree with both. But with the caveat you’re adding a rifle and cartridge to your arsenal that might be space and capability better used elsewhere. If someone has a 6.5 but no shot gun. Maybe get a 12g instead of a 308. Know what I mean? 9mm, 556, 308/-06/.270/6.5creed/7remmag pick one, 12g. After those 4. Get whatever you want. But I’d say have those 4 first. You can concealed carry fight hunt and survive. After that double down with another bolt gun maybe a magnum, another pistol maybe 45 or 10mm or 357, maybe have a little 22 lr. Build out capabilities. Not collectables.
Even for a few years after the 6.5 Creedmoor was introduced I kept seeing articles along the lines of "The Unpopular 6.5'". It took several years for the Creedmoor to get popular for hunting.. It started out as a 1000yard competition cartridge. It was its long range accuracy with inexpensive rifles that got people's attention at first. The 260, although sometimes used in competition, was really thought of as more of a youth and ladies hunting cartridge. Kinda a lesser version of a 308.
Swedes been winning matches and shooting moose with it for over a century try telling them it's a ladies cartridge. Creedmoor is nothing new just fits in a short action and Remington botched 260 just like they did 244 wrong twist
@@paulknopp5694 No one has implied the 6.5x55 was considered a women's cartridge. 6.5's just were not popular in the US until the mid 2010's. Not many seemed to know about the 6.5x55 in the 1960's when I was growing up. Many DID know that the Japanese used a 6.5 in WWII and generally disparaged the cartridge in comparison to the 30-06. The twist on the 260 Rem is OK for 140 grain bullets, so that wasn't really the problem. Being a necked-down 308 meant that it was limited to bullets with a relatively short ogive, at least in a short action. It was mainly considered a low-recoil variant of the 308. A half-step up from a 243 and best for the slight of frame or recoil sensitive. A perfect example is that the outdoors writer Ron Spomer prefers hunting cartridges more powerful than the 308 whereas his wife shoots a 260.
Sorry I misunderstood I'm not trying to cause a fight. I'm very happy that the 65 caliber has become so popular of late because there's a lot better bullet selection than there ever was
I would like to hear Ryan talk differences between .243, 6 creed, and 6.5 creed. I have always loved my little .243 for dusting yote's and then loading some 90gr barnes for blackbear and deer size game.
A bullet tailored to application can help so much. Not just the cartridge but also the intended game. I look forward to the results of the extensive testing 😅
Good point on the reloaded 7x57. The original 7x57 pressure was 50,307 CUP in the supposedly relatively weak model 93 action. Although according to some that there is no really accurate formula for converting CUP to PSI, using one of the supposed most accurate formulas that translates to 58,458 PSI. In plenty strong actions like my Kar. 98, which is really a medium length action, you can take full advantage of the 7x57's larger case capacity over the 7mm-08. You can get the 7x57 pretty close to 270 Winchester performance with careful hand loads. The same can be said for the 6.5x55 vs the 6.5 Creedmoor. I've got all the cartridge/calibers listed herein and a lot more except the 6.5 Creedmoor. Over the last 50 years I've harvested more deer with my Ruger M77 270 Winchester than anything else. All the rest are just for occasional variety. If I had to get rid of all but one and couldn't hand load I'd stick with the 308 Winchester. Widest selection of bullet weights, common cup and core bullets or premium varieties from many manufacturers priced accordingly and availability. Except for the availability and price issues I'd pick the 7mm-08. Flat shooting, less recoil than the 308. Plenty of inexpensive, synthetic stocked rifles that I hate to admit are amazingly accurate. I'm old and traditional like the cartridge and rifle combinations I like. Happy hunting boys and girls!😊
The reloading manuals state that there are two different factory loadings for the Swede in Europe. Because modern arms are able to tolerate higher pressures, but there are still old rifles around. All the big deal about that Creedmore disappears once you know that. Practicing is difficult when you cannot afford it because of the price. It's all academic when you live and hunt where a three hundred yard shot is exceedingly rare. Act accordingly to your own situation
Both of these cartridges hold 40-45 gr of powder(potential energy) and have a wide variety of projectiles available. It should be no surprise that they share a lot of performance overlap and are basically interchangeable.
@@simonharris4801 be happy with your 308. The real advantage of the creed in my book is the factory ammo. If you compare say 168 gold medal match to 140 hornady match the 6.5 creedmoor is way better probably once you get beyond 600-700 yards. If you start hand loading the performance gap will shrink a lot. You can get a way better bullet and probably pick up 100-150 ft/sec and then the only real disadvantage to the 308 is recoil and that isn’t a big deal unless you are on a timed event.
23:16 That list for the 'new shooter' Exactly what I was considering, in watching your 270 vs 30-06 comparison earlier today. Excellent presentation. Thank you.
Splitting hairs between the 2. Barrel life ammo selection and availability tips the scales in favor of the 308 for me. I own both and like them both but 308 is the clear winner head to head. Hard to beat a 308 with a 168 gr partition out to 4 or 500 yds for hunting. But the most important thing is the shooter and how much practice you put in regardless of caliber
6.5 is far more forgiving for shots over 800. At most huntimg ranges the 308 is excellent but shooting steel or maybe predators at true long range the 6.5 has a clear edge
168 eldm with a bc of .523 going 2800 fps makes almost 3000 lbs ft of energy at the muzzle, at 1k yards that bullet is still going like 1400 with an energy of 800 lb.ft that beats pretty much Any 6.5 creedmoor load
My hunting was a bit of a stuffup this year. I could not find a Waterbuck for my .308 to shoot at, and then when we wanted to shoot Blesbuck and springbuck with my 6.5CM, the wind was trying to blow the veld away with it. I got two blesbuck, but it was not a great experience.
I went down the 6.5 cm road a few years ago after decades with the 308. I built an AR-10 Frankenrifle with a carbon fiber barrel and just loved the accuracy. But I built it to hunt and clearly the rifle was unwieldy pig. After a couple years in the field with handloads I was not all that impressed. Within “normal” hunting ranges, under 350 yards, the 308 has better terminal ballistics. Bigger holes and more blood on the ground makes for easy tracking when called for. I don’t miss the 6.5 at all. For longer ranges I have a stupid accurate 7mag with a brake so recoil is no issue.
Frontal area is a very legitimate factor. I love the Swede and feel that it is very capable but as you know the smaller bores are more sensitive to bullet choice, get to the .308 and larger and the average bullet is simply more effective….It becomes a much bigger deal when we get into big bodied deer and larger critters.
Or, split the difference between both, gain all the advantages and only a fraction of either's downsides with the phenomenal 7mm-08. Reload it to even compete with 270Win (factory) performance!
Lol I was about to type something similar and thought “someone’s beat me to it I’ll bet.” Same magazine capacity. Able to use a 20” barrel. Lots and lots of projectiles to choose from. Lighter recoil than a 308 and more energy down range than 6.5 Creedmoor. Considerably flatter trajectory than 308. The big downside to 7mm-08 is ammo availability and rifle choices. Sure everyone “makes” their rifles in 7mm-08 but try to find one in a store… there are 5-10 rifles in either 308 or 6.5 CM for every one on the rack in 7mm-08. A few days ago my Cabelas had 11 variations of 270 Winchester, 25+ in 6.5 Creedmoor, and I didn’t count the 308 variants. 1 choice for 7mm-08 and I’d never heard of the manufacturer. I hand load and am about to build a light-ish hunting rifle so neither bothers me.
Great conversation! Another metric while comparing might include short barrel lengths. Mark often mentions compact hunting rifles. Does one cartridge outperform another with shorter barrels. I find I like hunting with a suppressor and barrel length can be an issue. Keep up the good work
Where I live in Georgia 308 win is the number 1 most available ammo with different options then 30-06 and 6.5 cm are fighting for 2nd but I've never shot anything with a 308 or 6.5cm but the fun thing about cartridges is that they all work lol
Ryan: "Yes"! More conversation / comparison like this Podcast please! and please try to make a Podcast with Ron Spomer and Ryan! Thanks! Regards from Switzerland.
Great podcast between the 2. Here in South Carolina, I trend towards the 6.5 due to a little less recoil and will do the job from the critters around these parts. If I was living say up north with bigger game, probably would choose the 308 for being a 30 caliber and you could use a heavier bullet. Both are great cartridges for medium game, I might just pick up both when it’s all said and done, thanks guys.
The best way I've found to look at these two rounds is. I prefer 308 300yards and in. And 6.5 for all applications past 300. That's ware the creed shines. The 308 beats it for hunting in every way inside 300. The 6.5 beats 308 in every way past 300. That sums it up in a fast way I think 🤔
The 6.5 does not beat the 308 past 300 in retained energy. Honestly not a huge difference in drop and drift either. If you are seeing the 308 fall off at 300 yards significantly you need a different bullet
@@K-bob_45 Exactly, even 6.5 grendel will be able to hit just as far but without that extra oomph. These wildcats are usually designed for long range shooting in design instead of a mixture of lethality and range.
@@K-bob_45 yes 300 is ware the 6.5 and 308 meet and the 6.5 is better accurate and better energy past 300 idk what planet ur on but that's ware the 6.5 pulls ahead. It's facts not opinion
I got a SAKO in 6.5 PRC as it provides some additional velocity at range. Interesting to listen to guys try and split hairs between to medium game cartridges.... Then I don't see enough difference between the 308 and the Creedmore to justify the higher cost and lower choice options. My 308 is my go to, and the 6.5 PRC was a impulse buy because I wanted a SAKO.
A buddy of mine packed around a 26" 6.5 on a 10 day remote hunt in pws... by the end of this winter he had the local gunsmith chop it down to 18" like my rifle cause it was unwieldy to pack through willow thickets and up mountains 😆
It’s funny that people get all twisted up about a “long action” that adds, what, 1/2” to length? However, some cartridges really need a 24” or even 26” barrel while the 308 and others can do fine with a 20” or even 18” barrel. Which makes a bigger difference in rifle handiness? This gets even more important when you start talking about suppressors.
I have a cva scout in 6.5 creedmoor. talk about a small compact rifle with a 20 inch barrel. has a youth stock on it also, because winter clothing adds alot and full stock is all messed up with alot layer. but if you dont mind a single shot, it's the way to go to keep barrel length and keep the package small. not haveing 6 to 7 inchs of reciever really shortens every nicely. and that cva scout while not going to win me any matches can consistently keep my shots in a 1.5 inch group all day long, and any thing that does 2.5 groups I consider hunting good. it's most definitely a hunting rifle, worth looking into. and you can reload dang fast if you practice. not much difference in a bolt action. iv gotten off a second shot a few times on deer no problems.
For a shorter barrel, a 308 is going to be more efficient with powder. The more over bore you go, the longer barrel you need for the powder to do its thing. You won't lose as much with a short barrel 308 as you will with a short barrel 6.5.
I would love to see this test done. I actually have a lot of ideas floating around in my head right now for ways to do it. If you are serious about doing gel testing you should reach out to ballistic dummies lab and see if they can do a deer chest for you.
Thank you for acknowledging 6.5 creed can be enough for elk. My dad and I have 6 elk between each of us in Wyoming, all with a 6.5 creed. Last year my dad got his at 650 yards, which I'll admit it's a little risky, but anything sub 500 yards is plenty fine if you know how to shoot your gun.
People always think about bullet weight, but I rarely hear people talking about sectional density, which so matters, and the 6.5 has very good sectional density.
Thank you for discussing bullet design. I feel that many hunters are ignorant of bullets and the characteristics of what they are hunting with. I have been guilty of using the wrong bullet for what I needed to accomplish. Hopefully, that won't happen to me again.
Your discussion was very interesting. One thing you didn't mention was the availability of inexpensive 7.62mm NATO M-80 ball ammunition. I have gotten to the point where I don't even bother handloading for it any more. I can go have a fun day at the range and bang off 100 rounds without thinking about it.
42:16 I'm curious, when you mention 'shoot ability' Comparing the two rifles... Why not compare identical rifles, simply chambered for each round. Ie. Lite mobile hunting rifle, chambered for each round. VS heavier rifle, (stand, prone, target, etc) chambered for each round. Right? Wouldn't that math, be almost more... Usable. Data? It would suggest perhaps, how much rifle you need to begin to mitigate or minimize the recoil from each shell cartridge. Nd could demonstrate how, while a lite rifle might appreciate the low kick 6.5 or 270, Compared to the mule kick of a 30 cal. (or larger) However, once you've stepped into a heavier furniture, for scope, stock, barrel, mount/bipod/bracing/etc.... And or applied a brake or a suppressor? To reduce recoil? How much the recoil on the larger shell. Can be mitigated, and thus, how much advantage the 65cr or the 270 would lose, As the heavier 'furniture' or system, would mitigate or counterbalance or compensate for the ammunition recoil, of the larger round.
17:05 I absolutely agree. Its in fact the reason I avoided considering bolt action, for many years, Only now finding the Tikka and thinking. Oh. That's beautiful. Ok. I accept. Between a buttered glass action, and minimal recoil, It seems very pleasant and effective.
I went .308 with a 16.25" barrel and a supressor. Nice because there are better subsonic bullets for .308. I load the 168 gr. Accubond LR for heavy loads and the Hornady Sub-X 175 for my subsonics. The range I typically take deer on the properties I hunt is 50-120 yards. The subsonic is still perfect for that and no ear pro needed. ;) I have a 1-4 x 25 lpvo and Iron sights on the .308 - Mossberg MVP in .308. I should add that being a box magazine fed, I can carry two mags one for high power in case a long range shot becomes available and keeping the subsonic in the rifle ready. I'd love to see your in depth review.
My friend from South Africa recently took his 6.5 Creedmoor with on an Eland hunt. At 210m hit right through the heart with an ELD-X, it ran maybe 20 paces and fell. I'm going to be taking my .308 after Eland soon and I am expecting pretty much the same result, based on shot placement. If I had both a .308 and a 6.5 Creed, I'd probably just pick on or the other based on the Ammo I have and which rifle is more fun to shoot, or whether it's the first tuesday of the month! I highly doubt I'd ever notice a difference in Terminal performance, only in recoil and joy to use, which both are affected just as much by the rifle itself.
I'm in SA and split between which one to get. A mate also just went with his 6.5 and shot everything under the sun with zero take down issues. The idea of walk and stalk plains game hunting would probably lend to a lighter 6.5 setup?
@@SeanZAcz Personally I think that as long as you put it where it needs to be with a bullet that does the job well, you probably won't notice a difference. I've unfortunately not been able to shoot a 6.5 yet, but hopefully soon. In my opinion, choose whichever you can find ammo for as well as a nicer rifle. I prefer the Howa 1500 and put mine into a stock/chassis, so for me the rifle part is sorted. As for ammo, up here in Namibia when I went into the store they had about 10 boxes of 6.5 Creed in total and 8 types of .308 with plenty of stock... so I went with the .308 - every time I'm in the store, there's plenty of ammo available. As per rifle setup, honestly I think you'd be just fine with a lightweight .308 or 6.5 just the same. I don't know if I'd notice the recoil difference. Personally, my choice would come down to what I have - if I have something smaller like a 6mm, I'd go .308, if I have something bigger like a .30-06 or .300 Mag, I'd go 6.5. Just to create a little bit more diversity between the choices. Don't be too troubled by it, you'll enjoy either. Lekker skiet!
I'd love to see the ballistics gel tests done! For increased realism you could put a piece of deer hide over the end you are shooting, and you could even put a deer scapula in the mould as you pour the gel in, to see the different rounds effects on bone penetration.
A half dozen YT channels (noted in particular earlier in the thread) have done this. As has some other channel done the other particulars on their channel. Be easier to interview each "expert" than start a knew on already established metrics/science.
I dont understand all the 6.5 is a significantly fast argument. Take a Nosler ABLR, 129gr at 2807 vs Nosler ABLR 168 at 2698. That's a 109 fps difference; or 3.9% more speed; but 39 gr weight diffence; or 23% increase. I'd call that more efficient. Both great, but I've come around to 308 is not the wrong answer for pretty much anything. 6.5Cr isn't wrong for most, but inside of 400 yards; I would take 308 9 times out of 10; but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
Simple physics - increasing mass increases the energy less than increasing the speed. Without doing the math, because it's late here and I am lazy, I think a 3.9% increase in speed will increase kinetic energy than the 23% increase in mass. KE= 1/2MV^2 Quick example; Double the mass, but keep the same speed, and you get double the kinetic energy. Double the speed but keep the same mass, and you get 4 times as much energy.
32:42 As a first time rifle purchaser, I selected the 6.5CM for the exact reasons outlined in Ryan’s Story - I just couldn’t articulate it. Now that I have it, my next question is: What’s the next cartridge for Large North American Game. Ryan kinda hinted that it’s the .308 Would love to see a Podcast Named: So you bought a 6.5 Creedmoor, what’s your next purchase for America’s Big Game? Taking the attributes of the 6.5 CM and scaling up to cover anything you could come across including grizzlies and moose would be super interesting. Is it the .308, is it the 30-06, is it the .280 AI, is it the .270 Win, is it the 7Rem Mag - I Don’t know Mark! I just don’t know!
Would love to see/hear your thoughts on the “absolute hammer” line of bullets and whether there are any drawbacks in your eyes when handloading vs a more traditional monolithic/copper bullet
Bruh the 6.5 need more cant even kill a whitetail less than 300 yards. Too many horror storys that is a target round not a hunting round. Too many fanboys tried to push that round and hype it up, now so many people are losing deer. And no i dont own a .308, i roll with the king of cartridges 7mm rem mag. I back it up with .30-06 springfield.
@kylecomeaux7880 That is an objectively ridiculous statement, considering that 243 Win (a less powerful cartridge) has decades of success against whitetails and that the European continent has seen over a century of very successfully hunting moose and stag with 6.5x55 Swede (which is functionally identical to 6.5CM). Your statements sound more like the result of 6.5CM being the default cartridge of new hunters over the last decade, and too many new hunters don't know what the heck they're doing.
find the 6.5 cheaper then 308 here in canada were I am. last trip to the store the prices were 6.5 creedmore $33.99 a box 308 $41.99 a box both were winchester power points.
@@outdoorsythings2573 That can certainly be the case. I only give 308 the budget conscious nob because there's much, much more low-end (read: poor quality) ammo available, and if you're on a really strict budget, that might be the difference between shooting and not (especially for training. It's all well and good to fork out for a box of Precision Hunter for the actual hunt, but that's expensive ammo to practice with). If you reload or stick to decent/good factory ammo, then that point is totally irrelevant.
Thr 6.5 creedmore can rarely be compared against itself... where the 308... you have to figure out which one you want to compare... 308: 110gr, 130, 155, 165, 168, 170, 175, 180, 185, 210... and then we have to consider bullet type( fmjbt, sp, hpbt, otm), tifle barrel twist rate (1:14, down to 1:8) , barrel length14-24+.. etc etc
Interesting and thoughtful conversation, thank you. I faced this decision personally when picking my Scout rifle and I went with the 308. Not because the 308 is better but it is better for me given my background, education and experience. That written, my next barrel for my Encore will be the 8.6 BLK - as soon as I can buy it - which is a child cartridge of the 6.5 Creedmoor.
I have a 308 because it is still a nato standard. I do like the look of the 6.5, but would like to see it become a standard before investing alot into it. I would like to see a scar heavy in 6.5.
Have you done a .260 vs 6.5 cm As I can't see any difference between the two when shot from the same twist barrels same bullet head and the same speed???? ???
Say I have a new REM .260 with a 1/8 twist that's throwing a 140 or 147 ELD AT 2800 FPS. And I also have a 6.5 CM running the same. I I'm genuinely really interested to know how there could be any different between either round down range. Also bering in mind the guns are exactly the same other then there cases. which case would actually in theory be best. (when only shooting the extremely popular 140 or 147 ELD bullet heads.) Between The CM or the REM .260 Also baring in mind the .260 also has the space to hold a grain more powder so it could possibly run that bit hotter if required. ???
We need Cartridge Science! Would love to see a variety of bullets at a few different ranges on ballistics gel. Is there any way to stretch animal hide in front of the gel and/or implant a bone in ballistics gel for a more realistic test?
@@exodusz19 Some advice you probably don't need, ( ha ha) just remember to compare the cost of ammo that you will shoot the most. Or if you plan on reloading some day. I like you compare ammo price. I would say, practice is more important than having fancy stuff that you don't use much.
Idc if it takes months, years. I want to see ordinance gel tests of the top 5 most common bullets in the top 3 cartridges of every caliber from .22 to .50. I'll take a 100 yard test, but I would like to see tests at 300 and 500
If ballistics gel tests are performed, please test bullets at ranges/velocities of extended ranges. Terminal performance at extended ranges of 600 yards would be more relevant than 100 yards in todays world. At least test certain long range bullets such as ABLR and or federal terminal ascent at the 600 yards.
I would LOVE to see ballistics gel tests at 300 yards. That would help separate the wheat from the chaff both in bullet choices and cartridge choices. Shooting ballistics gel at 10-25 yards isn’t meaningless, but 300 yards would be MUCH more interesting to me.
My compliments for taking on an issue that nobody else wants to talk about. J/K. One of my hobbies is long-range bench shooting. I do apply some of that to seasonal whitetail hunting. I shoot both 308 Winchester and 6.5 CM. Neither is my first pick for Whitetails here in Northeast. What I can tell you is the the 308 is less expensive to shoot and more versatile due to availability of bullets and powders. However, the 308 is more of a struggle to shoot well beyond 600 yards. The 6.5 is much easier to shoot. It has less recoil to manage and is more wind resistant. Hitting distant targets requires less elevation and windage adjustments and lower recoil makes impacts easier to spot. You can shoot the 6.5 a lot before you get tired of it and it is natural for people to choose such a gun for hunting. Nevertheless, the 308 has more to teach a shooter. If you can shoot a 308 well, you can shoot anything well. Just get both. Shoot the 308 while the 6.5 cools down.
Distance being the factor for me, i shoot a 308. I do not hunt where i would ever have a shot over 250 yards. If i had shots over 400, 500 yards i may very likely reconsider and get a 6.5. I have a .300 win mag if i ever had somewhere with truly big game like elk or moose, but for my sub 250 years whitetail hunting, the .308 is beautiful. I just bought my son a .270 after a long debate between that and the 6.5. I ultimately felt the .270 offered a few advantages.
@@mattkolden TBH, most of the chamberings you’ve listed are too much for the local whitetails. Given the size of the local deer, topography, and proximity of dwellings, something akin to a 30-30 would be more appropriate.
I think a 3 way conversation with Ryan M., Ron Spomer Outdoors and Backfires, Jim Harmer my 3 favorite goto pod casts for losing myself in total hunting rifle indulgence...
Another great podcast. I think you need to do it but the stipulation needs to be with the 6.5 Creedmoor you shoot the most popular weight bullets i.e. 140, 143, 147 grain. And with the .308 you shoot the 150 to 165 grain.
Up north low on ammo so the closest hardware store will more likely have...... or someone you meet/find has which to give/loan/sell you? If another guy forgot or ran put of ammo which is he most likely to need? The above means the most to me.
I think you should do those objective tests for comparing cartridges, and I think you have to start by redoing the .308 vs 6.5 Creedmoor talk. 😂 As for future videos, I'd like to see a .300 WSM vs 7 PRC comparison, and a .270 Winchester vs 7mm 08 comparison. Maybe throw the 30-06 in those, too, as a "control" base to compare them.
Mini series Test: shooting pigs with lightweight bolt action (ruger American), medium weight bolt action (b14 with suppressors) and an ar10 style with night vision/ thermals and tripods. All in both calibers. And of course, with vortex optics. Conclusion what cartridges exiles in what aspects of the hunting experience.
Let’s get some ballistics gel and light this candle! Examining bullet construction and performance on test media, I’m looking forward to this conversation. Request? 308 win/Barnes TTSX bullets performance, between their factory ammo weight ranges. Example 130gr vs 150gr vs 168gr. Always enjoy 10 min talk podcast 👍!!
2 Completely different rounds that serve the hunter well, 1 originally designed to serve as a convenient military round ,1 designed to hit a bullseye at a long range distance! Both are great at what they do ! Would love to have either one!
I have, and shoot and reload both. You will find the 6.5 creedmoor will be slightly more accurate -less drop. However, you can get more weight in the 308. So given the same speed on impact it will give more energy on the target. I load to give more speed out the barrel with both, slightly. While the 308 is more easy to find over the counter, the 6.5 Creed has become easy to get too. it depends on if your hunting or target shooting. But mostly it depends on if you practice, get that?
Please explain with some proof other than opinion how the 6.5 will be more accurate. I've shot in most rifle disciplines competitively since 1996 & would love to see the proof so that I may enlighten my fellow competitors
Twist rates aren’t talked about enough. I have a 308 and while many loads are available, not all will work well. My Tikka doesn’t shoot anything over 165gr well with the 1:11 twist. So bullet weight options suddenly aren’t as wide if u want to be accurate with factory ammo. It’s a factor.
Good point! After I bought a BLR in 308 I called Barnes to ask them about bullet choices. With a 1:10 twist, the Barnes tech told me 162 grains was right at the edge and don’t go higher. However, a Sierra tech told me don’t worry, be happy up to 190 grains IIRC. The difference is bullet construction.
I have a Howa 1500 with a 1:10 twist and my rifle has no problem with 180gr, although I haven't tried such heavy match bullets yet. My favourite load at the moment is a 168gr ELD-M and I have no problem. To be fair, I am helped that where I live is well over 4000ft Elevation. I've been thinking of trying 175-190gr Match loads with it, I don't think I'd have an issue, but I can only guess atm.
Put the 140gr bthp Barnes match burner through ballistics gel. (I’m getting 2700fps out of my 6.5 creed). At 100 yards it did pretty well through ballistics gel, and one whitetail, one feral pig, and a coyote all dropped in their tracks.
I've played a drinking game as I've listened to multiple back-to-back episodes. I take a drink every time I hear "smattering" and "folded like a five dollar bill." I'm now more than half hiccup snockered...
Definitely interested in the deeper scientific study! That's often missing when various cartridges are compared (less so on your podcast, but on the web in general). Maybe you could develop a standardized testing approach and apply it to other cartridges in the future, too? That would allow fair side-by-side comparisons of many different cartridges. Seems like you're uniquely qualified to do something like that with your carefully controlled indoor range.
Great video. These 2 being compared in this logical way shuts up the overhyped fan club on both sides. The topics they touched on is fun and interesting especially when they talk about stuff that applies to all cartridges: is versatility everything, how much do you really need, bigger and heavier is still better for dangerous situations. It sorta seems like it’s easier to hit with the 6.5 but easier to kill with the 308.
A comparison between 6.5 Creedmoor and the 7mm-08 Remington would be interesting. At least they have bullet weights in common so a more apples to apples comparison to speak would be interesting.
Do this, but to truly sort out the performance differences it'll have to be way beyond 100 yards. I think these cartridges are a wash inside 300 yards. I say test at 400 as very few of us (even out here in the west) really shoot much further than 400 yards. Thanks!
I would really like to hear Ryan and Ron Spomer talk about cartridges. This is the level-headed, experienced, and informed type of discussion we all need. All the while, entertaining.
Ron and Ryan have a nice ring to it.
I'd donate to this idea
Could be a great podcast!
Yup
I think Ryan and Ron would get along swimmingly
As long as Ryan is here the podcast is good.
And Mark:).
Mark B.
@Vortex Nation Mark B. is definitely the unsung hero of the podcast. He's like your buddy who always has extra ear and eye pro for whoever forgets. He keeps the wheels on the train turning.
@@VortexNation I do like the podcast best with all 3 of you on it ;)
@@VortexNation 🤣🤣🤣
Think I'll just split the difference and go 7mm-08. I wish 7mm-08 ammo was more available and cheaper like .308.
👍🏻
yes. I wish there was more 7-08 I'd make the switch from 6.5
Im thinking it just wasnt dIfferent enough from the 308 to be wildley popular.
@@anonymousf454 I believe that to be the case as well.
308 will be king as long as it's cheaper and readily available where ammo is sold. Wide variety of choices also helps 308.
Perfectly stated 👍
True but It could lose its place in the near future. I’m seeing more and more 6.5cm and it’s maybe $5 less per box
If cheap is yer criteria, then 22lr is king lol. 6.5 destroys 308 at any real range, if you never take shots past 200 then yea 308 all day but 500+ 6.5 is another league, 308 might as well be flintlock.
No 6.5 cm to be had during pandemic in my parts and an entire shelf full of .308, so I tend to agree.
If you reload 308 can cost more using similar quality components
I went with .308 because I wanted a 20-inch barrel. On an old podcast, Ryan recommended starting with the bullet you want to hunt with and develop a load for it. I agree with you both that the right bullet for the job and practice is far more important than what cal. you use. Great info, guys!
Been looking hard at 6.5cm for awhile and the other new cartridges for a new rifle, and it does seem like the conversation should REALLY be about bullets for sure!
I've been waiting for this topic for a long time
Great flow between the two of you, looking forward to a cartridge talk on the 7.5 Swiss
Please do this segment and call it Cartridge Science!
Stay tuned! 😎
Right!? Definitely would like to see more of these videos. Be cool to see why 25-06 destroys every other "deer" cartridge. Lol
Another great podcast. Thanks guys. I've got a 6.5, but not a .308. I've been a 30-06 guy, more than a .308 forever, and the 30-06 has always been considered a .308 magnum to me. This podcast has opened my eyes a bit more on the .308.
If you have a 6.5, the 308 doesn't add much. The 30-06 (or a 270) is an actual step up in power.
@@texpatriot8462you can literally handload 308 to match 3006 up until like 200 grain bullet weights, then the 3006s greater case capacity has the advantage.
@@chanoleyva8584there is no situation where a .308 can match a 30-06 loaded to equal pressures. It simply has more room for powder. If you said it’s an irrelevant difference at the lighter bullet weights, I’d agree with that.
.308 is more akin to a 30/06 short. The higher pressures of the .308 make the performance very similar especially when you handload 308. The 308 is a no Brainer imo
😂 once I heard the old bull and the young calf instantly thought of step brothers 🤣
Nobody talks about sectional density in comparisons. This is why the 6.5 swede was so successful.
Who’s swede? lol jk
For me, if you mostly hunt, go .308 for the versatility. If you mostly target shoot but hunt on occasion, go 6.5CR.
Just get both imo. I agree with you entirely btw. But there’s nothing wrong with having and being proficient in both, and I think that should be everyone’s goal
6.5 is far superior to any 308 honestly except in price!
@@mylesharvey6488 please explain, be specific
@@Yelladog78 I think it was a typo 6mm ARC
@@traceyevans2757except that’s a 2nd gun 2nd ammo type. And you’re not really gaining much other than more available ammo types. So maybe just go 308 and who cares that it drops a little less and drifts a little more. If you’re dialing and holding for wind. It’s not like you’re making pop shots. It’s not sub 300 blk vs 55g 223 at distance. What difference does it make if you hold 2 mils or 3 mils for wind when you know what you’re holding for your round anyway. So I see why and don’t disagree with both. But with the caveat you’re adding a rifle and cartridge to your arsenal that might be space and capability better used elsewhere. If someone has a 6.5 but no shot gun. Maybe get a 12g instead of a 308. Know what I mean? 9mm, 556, 308/-06/.270/6.5creed/7remmag pick one, 12g. After those 4. Get whatever you want. But I’d say have those 4 first. You can concealed carry fight hunt and survive. After that double down with another bolt gun maybe a magnum, another pistol maybe 45 or 10mm or 357, maybe have a little 22 lr. Build out capabilities. Not collectables.
6.5, the calibre we never knew we needed. Remington, missed it with the .260 there.
But the swedes got it right over a century ago
Even for a few years after the 6.5 Creedmoor was introduced I kept seeing articles along the lines of "The Unpopular 6.5'". It took several years for the Creedmoor to get popular for hunting.. It started out as a 1000yard competition cartridge. It was its long range accuracy with inexpensive rifles that got people's attention at first. The 260, although sometimes used in competition, was really thought of as more of a youth and ladies hunting cartridge. Kinda a lesser version of a 308.
Swedes been winning matches and shooting moose with it for over a century try telling them it's a ladies cartridge. Creedmoor is nothing new just fits in a short action and Remington botched 260 just like they did 244 wrong twist
@@paulknopp5694 No one has implied the 6.5x55 was considered a women's cartridge. 6.5's just were not popular in the US until the mid 2010's. Not many seemed to know about the 6.5x55 in the 1960's when I was growing up. Many DID know that the Japanese used a 6.5 in WWII and generally disparaged the cartridge in comparison to the 30-06.
The twist on the 260 Rem is OK for 140 grain bullets, so that wasn't really the problem. Being a necked-down 308 meant that it was limited to bullets with a relatively short ogive, at least in a short action. It was mainly considered a low-recoil variant of the 308. A half-step up from a 243 and best for the slight of frame or recoil sensitive. A perfect example is that the outdoors writer Ron Spomer prefers hunting cartridges more powerful than the 308 whereas his wife shoots a 260.
Sorry I misunderstood I'm not trying to cause a fight. I'm very happy that the 65 caliber has become so popular of late because there's a lot better bullet selection than there ever was
I would like to hear Ryan talk differences between .243, 6 creed, and 6.5 creed. I have always loved my little .243 for dusting yote's and then loading some 90gr barnes for blackbear and deer size game.
A bullet tailored to application can help so much. Not just the cartridge but also the intended game. I look forward to the results of the extensive testing 😅
.264 + .308 = .572 Divide by 2 = .286 So just go .284 close enough so the answer is 7mm-08 Rem. or reload 7mm x 57 Mauser TC Men
Hear hear, let’s hear it for the venerable 7’s. Unless I’m in coastal brown bear country, then I’m carrying a .338 howitzer.
Good point on the reloaded 7x57. The original 7x57 pressure was 50,307 CUP in the supposedly relatively weak model 93 action. Although according to some that
there is no really accurate formula for converting CUP to PSI, using one of the supposed most accurate formulas that translates to 58,458 PSI. In plenty strong actions like my Kar. 98, which is really a medium length action, you can take full advantage of the 7x57's larger case capacity over the 7mm-08. You can get the 7x57 pretty close to 270 Winchester performance with careful hand loads. The same can be said for the 6.5x55 vs the 6.5 Creedmoor. I've got all the cartridge/calibers listed herein and a lot more except the 6.5 Creedmoor. Over the last 50 years I've harvested more deer with my Ruger M77 270 Winchester than anything else. All the rest are just for occasional variety. If I had to get rid of all but one and couldn't hand load I'd stick with the 308 Winchester. Widest selection of bullet weights, common cup and core bullets or premium varieties from many manufacturers priced accordingly and availability. Except for the availability and price issues I'd pick the 7mm-08. Flat shooting, less recoil than the 308. Plenty of inexpensive, synthetic stocked rifles that I hate to admit are amazingly accurate. I'm old and traditional like the cartridge and rifle combinations I like. Happy hunting boys and girls!😊
The reloading manuals state that there are two different factory loadings for the Swede in Europe. Because modern arms are able to tolerate higher pressures, but there are still old rifles around.
All the big deal about that Creedmore disappears once you know that. Practicing is difficult when you cannot afford it because of the price. It's all academic when you live and hunt where a three hundred yard shot is exceedingly rare.
Act accordingly to your own situation
7 PRC is the answer
@@MrRourk
Could be just load for accuracy !
Both of these cartridges hold 40-45 gr of powder(potential energy) and have a wide variety of projectiles available. It should be no surprise that they share a lot of performance overlap and are basically interchangeable.
I Just went 308 24. 1/10 twist I'm happy with it so far Wonder about the 6.5 though
@@simonharris4801 be happy with your 308. The real advantage of the creed in my book is the factory ammo. If you compare say 168 gold medal match to 140 hornady match the 6.5 creedmoor is way better probably once you get beyond 600-700 yards. If you start hand loading the performance gap will shrink a lot. You can get a way better bullet and probably pick up 100-150 ft/sec and then the only real disadvantage to the 308 is recoil and that isn’t a big deal unless you are on a timed event.
23:16
That list for the 'new shooter'
Exactly what I was considering, in watching your 270 vs 30-06 comparison earlier today.
Excellent presentation.
Thank you.
Would definitely make a cool comparison. I would also love to see the 270 win added to the comparison for terminal ballistics to the 6.5 creed.
Ryan said it a while back…”the hottest 6.5creed loading doesn’t come close to the most standard .270win offering”
Id be so happy to see y'all do a podventure with 6.5 and 308 on gel. If it goes well expand it to other commonly used medium game cartridges.
Yes! Maybe thrown in other cartridges. Multiple Projectiles for a variety of species.
Stay tuned! 😏
.308 is superior in ballistics
@@boygonewhoopdataZZ depends on what you are after
@@VortexNation When are you going to make a bow sight for us? 😏
fantastic episode, that leaves me thirsting for the terminal ballistic finally podcast!!! Great job fellas
Splitting hairs between the 2. Barrel life ammo selection and availability tips the scales in favor of the 308 for me. I own both and like them both but 308 is the clear winner head to head. Hard to beat a 308 with a 168 gr partition out to 4 or 500 yds for hunting. But the most important thing is the shooter and how much practice you put in regardless of caliber
6.5 is far more forgiving for shots over 800. At most huntimg ranges the 308 is excellent but shooting steel or maybe predators at true long range the 6.5 has a clear edge
168 eldm with a bc of .523 going 2800 fps makes almost 3000 lbs ft of energy at the muzzle, at 1k yards that bullet is still going like 1400 with an energy of 800 lb.ft that beats pretty much Any 6.5 creedmoor load
@@chanoleyva8584 lol
@@jwalesoutlaw3294 6.5 cm is overrated in my opinion
@chanoleyva8584 not for shooting at 1000 yards it's not its why you don't see any 308s competing in PRS
My hunting was a bit of a stuffup this year. I could not find a Waterbuck for my .308 to shoot at, and then when we wanted to shoot Blesbuck and springbuck with my 6.5CM, the wind was trying to blow the veld away with it. I got two blesbuck, but it was not a great experience.
Ryan's knowledge of cartridges and ballistics is incredible for his age (im assuming hes in is early 30s or maybe late 20s)
35 I believe!
Eggzacamundo grasshopper! Lotsa knowledge in the Grey Matter filing themselves accordingly. We would Wish
I went down the 6.5 cm road a few years ago after decades with the 308. I built an AR-10 Frankenrifle with a carbon fiber barrel and just loved the accuracy. But I built it to hunt and clearly the rifle was unwieldy pig. After a couple years in the field with handloads I was not all that impressed. Within “normal” hunting ranges, under 350 yards, the 308 has better terminal ballistics. Bigger holes and more blood on the ground makes for easy tracking when called for. I don’t miss the 6.5 at all. For longer ranges I have a stupid accurate 7mag with a brake so recoil is no issue.
Frontal area is a very legitimate factor. I love the Swede and feel that it is very capable but as you know the smaller bores are more sensitive to bullet choice, get to the .308 and larger and the average bullet is simply more effective….It becomes a much bigger deal when we get into big bodied deer and larger critters.
Very very outstanding video guy’s. Great job. Keep the language clean too. Keep up the good work. Thanks a lot friend. SC Navy vet. 1965. 🇺🇸😊
We want JIM
Jim will be back!
I want ur mom
Great idea with the gel. Just add the 7-08 to the mix😂😂
Yes please!
Or, split the difference between both, gain all the advantages and only a fraction of either's downsides with the phenomenal 7mm-08. Reload it to even compete with 270Win (factory) performance!
Lol I was about to type something similar and thought “someone’s beat me to it I’ll bet.” Same magazine capacity. Able to use a 20” barrel. Lots and lots of projectiles to choose from. Lighter recoil than a 308 and more energy down range than 6.5 Creedmoor. Considerably flatter trajectory than 308.
The big downside to 7mm-08 is ammo availability and rifle choices. Sure everyone “makes” their rifles in 7mm-08 but try to find one in a store… there are 5-10 rifles in either 308 or 6.5 CM for every one on the rack in 7mm-08. A few days ago my Cabelas had 11 variations of 270 Winchester, 25+ in 6.5 Creedmoor, and I didn’t count the 308 variants. 1 choice for 7mm-08 and I’d never heard of the manufacturer. I hand load and am about to build a light-ish hunting rifle so neither bothers me.
Great conversation! Another metric while comparing might include short barrel lengths. Mark often mentions compact hunting rifles. Does one cartridge outperform another with shorter barrels. I find I like hunting with a suppressor and barrel length can be an issue. Keep up the good work
Recent podcast with Ron Spomer and Randy Newberg he uses 308 on elk and like the 708 for deer and pronghorn. He recent got a 6.5 prc to play with.
Randy said it’s his new pet to play with so it will be interesting to see if the 6.5 PRC becomes his favorite!
Yes to the experimentation
You should also do a comparison of the different 300s, winmag wsm rum wby
Where I live in Georgia 308 win is the number 1 most available ammo with different options then 30-06 and 6.5 cm are fighting for 2nd but I've never shot anything with a 308 or 6.5cm but the fun thing about cartridges is that they all work lol
6.5 is fun to shoot therefore one will shoot (practice) more often. But as said " 30 caliber will help you sleep better when more maybe needed."
7-08 splits the difference beautifully but whatever cartridge checks your boxes wins
"He was equally as dead. I ate all of him." Poetic.
6:56
Read your comment moments before he said it😂 Love this line too
He has a way with words
True that
Ryan: "Yes"!
More conversation / comparison like this Podcast please!
and please try to make a Podcast with Ron Spomer and Ryan!
Thanks!
Regards from Switzerland.
Great podcast between the 2. Here in South Carolina, I trend towards the 6.5 due to a little less recoil and will do the job from the critters around these parts. If I was living say up north with bigger game, probably would choose the 308 for being a 30 caliber and you could use a heavier bullet. Both are great cartridges for medium game, I might just pick up both when it’s all said and done, thanks guys.
Still waiting for that 300 Win Mag Ryan
Can we get a 10 min talk on the 416 rem mag?
The best way I've found to look at these two rounds is. I prefer 308 300yards and in. And 6.5 for all applications past 300. That's ware the creed shines. The 308 beats it for hunting in every way inside 300. The 6.5 beats 308 in every way past 300. That sums it up in a fast way I think 🤔
This.
The 6.5 does not beat the 308 past 300 in retained energy. Honestly not a huge difference in drop and drift either. If you are seeing the 308 fall off at 300 yards significantly you need a different bullet
Gotta go well past 300 before the differences really start adding up.
@@K-bob_45 Exactly, even 6.5 grendel will be able to hit just as far but without that extra oomph. These wildcats are usually designed for long range shooting in design instead of a mixture of lethality and range.
@@K-bob_45 yes 300 is ware the 6.5 and 308 meet and the 6.5 is better accurate and better energy past 300 idk what planet ur on but that's ware the 6.5 pulls ahead. It's facts not opinion
Have you talked about the 300 Win Mag?
I got a SAKO in 6.5 PRC as it provides some additional velocity at range. Interesting to listen to guys try and split hairs between to medium game cartridges.... Then I don't see enough difference between the 308 and the Creedmore to justify the higher cost and lower choice options. My 308 is my go to, and the 6.5 PRC was a impulse buy because I wanted a SAKO.
I also like that you can get 18 and 20" 308 rifles a lot easier then 18-20" Creedmores.
A buddy of mine packed around a 26" 6.5 on a 10 day remote hunt in pws... by the end of this winter he had the local gunsmith chop it down to 18" like my rifle cause it was unwieldy to pack through willow thickets and up mountains 😆
It’s funny that people get all twisted up about a “long action” that adds, what, 1/2” to length? However, some cartridges really need a 24” or even 26” barrel while the 308 and others can do fine with a 20” or even 18” barrel. Which makes a bigger difference in rifle handiness? This gets even more important when you start talking about suppressors.
I have a cva scout in 6.5 creedmoor. talk about a small compact rifle with a 20 inch barrel. has a youth stock on it also, because winter clothing adds alot and full stock is all messed up with alot layer. but if you dont mind a single shot, it's the way to go to keep barrel length and keep the package small. not haveing 6 to 7 inchs of reciever really shortens every nicely. and that cva scout while not going to win me any matches can consistently keep my shots in a 1.5 inch group all day long, and any thing that does 2.5 groups I consider hunting good. it's most definitely a hunting rifle, worth looking into. and you can reload dang fast if you practice. not much difference in a bolt action. iv gotten off a second shot a few times on deer no problems.
For a shorter barrel, a 308 is going to be more efficient with powder. The more over bore you go, the longer barrel you need for the powder to do its thing. You won't lose as much with a short barrel 308 as you will with a short barrel 6.5.
I would love to see this test done. I actually have a lot of ideas floating around in my head right now for ways to do it. If you are serious about doing gel testing you should reach out to ballistic dummies lab and see if they can do a deer chest for you.
Thank you for acknowledging 6.5 creed can be enough for elk. My dad and I have 6 elk between each of us in Wyoming, all with a 6.5 creed. Last year my dad got his at 650 yards, which I'll admit it's a little risky, but anything sub 500 yards is plenty fine if you know how to shoot your gun.
I have a swede and have a dropped elk. I have no issues whatsoever with a 6.5 using a good bullet for anything in North America.
People always think about bullet weight, but I rarely hear people talking about sectional density, which so matters, and the 6.5 has very good sectional density.
Frontline Rejects channel has great bullet testing on it
Thank you for discussing bullet design. I feel that many hunters are ignorant of bullets and the characteristics of what they are hunting with. I have been guilty of using the wrong bullet for what I needed to accomplish. Hopefully, that won't happen to me again.
Your discussion was very interesting.
One thing you didn't mention was the availability of inexpensive 7.62mm NATO M-80 ball ammunition. I have gotten to the point where I don't even bother handloading for it any more. I can go have a fun day at the range and bang off 100 rounds without thinking about it.
Where can we find the video of you guys testing these two head-to-head?
42:16
I'm curious, when you mention 'shoot ability'
Comparing the two rifles...
Why not compare identical rifles, simply chambered for each round.
Ie.
Lite mobile hunting rifle, chambered for each round.
VS heavier rifle, (stand, prone, target, etc) chambered for each round.
Right?
Wouldn't that math, be almost more... Usable. Data?
It would suggest perhaps, how much rifle you need to begin to mitigate or minimize the recoil from each shell cartridge.
Nd could demonstrate how, while a lite rifle might appreciate the low kick 6.5 or 270,
Compared to the mule kick of a 30 cal. (or larger)
However, once you've stepped into a heavier furniture, for scope, stock, barrel, mount/bipod/bracing/etc....
And or applied a brake or a suppressor? To reduce recoil?
How much the recoil on the larger shell. Can be mitigated, and thus, how much advantage the 65cr or the 270 would lose,
As the heavier 'furniture' or system, would mitigate or counterbalance or compensate for the ammunition recoil, of the larger round.
Let's play a drinking game, everytime Ryan says "smattering" we all take a shot 😅
Charging grizzly bear you want a 6.5 or 308 180 grain nosler partition? One is good one is better?
17:05
I absolutely agree.
Its in fact the reason I avoided considering bolt action, for many years,
Only now finding the Tikka and thinking.
Oh.
That's beautiful. Ok. I accept.
Between a buttered glass action, and minimal recoil,
It seems very pleasant and effective.
I went .308 with a 16.25" barrel and a supressor. Nice because there are better subsonic bullets for .308. I load the 168 gr. Accubond LR for heavy loads and the Hornady Sub-X 175 for my subsonics. The range I typically take deer on the properties I hunt is 50-120 yards. The subsonic is still perfect for that and no ear pro needed. ;) I have a 1-4 x 25 lpvo and Iron sights on the .308 - Mossberg MVP in .308. I should add that being a box magazine fed, I can carry two mags one for high power in case a long range shot becomes available and keeping the subsonic in the rifle ready. I'd love to see your in depth review.
My friend from South Africa recently took his 6.5 Creedmoor with on an Eland hunt. At 210m hit right through the heart with an ELD-X, it ran maybe 20 paces and fell.
I'm going to be taking my .308 after Eland soon and I am expecting pretty much the same result, based on shot placement.
If I had both a .308 and a 6.5 Creed, I'd probably just pick on or the other based on the Ammo I have and which rifle is more fun to shoot, or whether it's the first tuesday of the month! I highly doubt I'd ever notice a difference in Terminal performance, only in recoil and joy to use, which both are affected just as much by the rifle itself.
I'm in SA and split between which one to get. A mate also just went with his 6.5 and shot everything under the sun with zero take down issues. The idea of walk and stalk plains game hunting would probably lend to a lighter 6.5 setup?
@@SeanZAcz Personally I think that as long as you put it where it needs to be with a bullet that does the job well, you probably won't notice a difference. I've unfortunately not been able to shoot a 6.5 yet, but hopefully soon.
In my opinion, choose whichever you can find ammo for as well as a nicer rifle. I prefer the Howa 1500 and put mine into a stock/chassis, so for me the rifle part is sorted. As for ammo, up here in Namibia when I went into the store they had about 10 boxes of 6.5 Creed in total and 8 types of .308 with plenty of stock... so I went with the .308 - every time I'm in the store, there's plenty of ammo available.
As per rifle setup, honestly I think you'd be just fine with a lightweight .308 or 6.5 just the same. I don't know if I'd notice the recoil difference.
Personally, my choice would come down to what I have - if I have something smaller like a 6mm, I'd go .308, if I have something bigger like a .30-06 or .300 Mag, I'd go 6.5. Just to create a little bit more diversity between the choices.
Don't be too troubled by it, you'll enjoy either. Lekker skiet!
I'd love to see the ballistics gel tests done! For increased realism you could put a piece of deer hide over the end you are shooting, and you could even put a deer scapula in the mould as you pour the gel in, to see the different rounds effects on bone penetration.
More research coming soon! 👀
A half dozen YT channels (noted in particular earlier in the thread) have done this. As has some other channel done the other particulars on their channel. Be easier to interview each "expert" than start a knew on already established metrics/science.
I dont understand all the 6.5 is a significantly fast argument. Take a Nosler ABLR, 129gr at 2807 vs Nosler ABLR 168 at 2698. That's a 109 fps difference; or 3.9% more speed; but 39 gr weight diffence; or 23% increase. I'd call that more efficient. Both great, but I've come around to 308 is not the wrong answer for pretty much anything. 6.5Cr isn't wrong for most, but inside of 400 yards; I would take 308 9 times out of 10; but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
Simple physics - increasing mass increases the energy less than increasing the speed. Without doing the math, because it's late here and I am lazy, I think a 3.9% increase in speed will increase kinetic energy than the 23% increase in mass.
KE= 1/2MV^2
Quick example; Double the mass, but keep the same speed, and you get double the kinetic energy.
Double the speed but keep the same mass, and you get 4 times as much energy.
6 mm arc versus? What would be a good thing to test against? Maybe 243
The important question to ask is do you want to load from the breech or the muzzle.
LOL!
32:42 As a first time rifle purchaser, I selected the 6.5CM for the exact reasons outlined in Ryan’s Story - I just couldn’t articulate it. Now that I have it, my next question is: What’s the next cartridge for Large North American Game. Ryan kinda hinted that it’s the .308
Would love to see a Podcast Named: So you bought a 6.5 Creedmoor, what’s your next purchase for America’s Big Game?
Taking the attributes of the 6.5 CM and scaling up to cover anything you could come across including grizzlies and moose would be super interesting.
Is it the .308, is it the 30-06, is it the .280 AI, is it the .270 Win, is it the 7Rem Mag - I Don’t know Mark! I just don’t know!
308 for do all or if want a step up from 6.5 because recoil ig 6.5 prc
Would love to see/hear your thoughts on the “absolute hammer” line of bullets and whether there are any drawbacks in your eyes when handloading vs a more traditional monolithic/copper bullet
The .308 does put more energy on target at ethical hunting distances (
Bruh the 6.5 need more cant even kill a whitetail less than 300 yards. Too many horror storys that is a target round not a hunting round. Too many fanboys tried to push that round and hype it up, now so many people are losing deer. And no i dont own a .308, i roll with the king of cartridges 7mm rem mag. I back it up with .30-06 springfield.
@kylecomeaux7880 That is an objectively ridiculous statement, considering that 243 Win (a less powerful cartridge) has decades of success against whitetails and that the European continent has seen over a century of very successfully hunting moose and stag with 6.5x55 Swede (which is functionally identical to 6.5CM).
Your statements sound more like the result of 6.5CM being the default cartridge of new hunters over the last decade, and too many new hunters don't know what the heck they're doing.
@@gpearce116.5cm is a garbage round. Its made for TARGET shooting, i wont be convinced otherwise. I’ll stick to my tried and true cartridges
find the 6.5 cheaper then 308 here in canada were I am. last trip to the store the prices were
6.5 creedmore $33.99 a box
308 $41.99 a box
both were winchester power points.
@@outdoorsythings2573 That can certainly be the case. I only give 308 the budget conscious nob because there's much, much more low-end (read: poor quality) ammo available, and if you're on a really strict budget, that might be the difference between shooting and not (especially for training. It's all well and good to fork out for a box of Precision Hunter for the actual hunt, but that's expensive ammo to practice with).
If you reload or stick to decent/good factory ammo, then that point is totally irrelevant.
Thr 6.5 creedmore can rarely be compared against itself... where the 308... you have to figure out which one you want to compare...
308:
110gr, 130, 155, 165, 168, 170, 175, 180, 185, 210... and then we have to consider bullet type( fmjbt, sp, hpbt, otm), tifle barrel twist rate (1:14, down to 1:8) , barrel length14-24+.. etc etc
Interesting and thoughtful conversation, thank you. I faced this decision personally when picking my Scout rifle and I went with the 308. Not because the 308 is better but it is better for me given my background, education and experience. That written, my next barrel for my Encore will be the 8.6 BLK - as soon as I can buy it - which is a child cartridge of the 6.5 Creedmoor.
I have a 308 because it is still a nato standard. I do like the look of the 6.5, but would like to see it become a standard before investing alot into it. I would like to see a scar heavy in 6.5.
FN makes one. They're in stock at Bud's Gun Shop right now.
@@barrettanderson2781 now I have to sell my car.
Love this! I’m definitely interested in a real test comparison between these two calibers.
Have you done a .260 vs 6.5 cm
As I can't see any difference between the two when shot from the same twist barrels same bullet head and the same speed????
???
Say I have a new REM .260 with a 1/8 twist that's throwing a 140 or 147 ELD AT 2800 FPS.
And I also have a 6.5 CM running the same.
I I'm genuinely really interested to know how there could be any different between either round down range.
Also bering in mind the guns are exactly the same other then there cases.
which case would actually in theory be best.
(when only shooting the extremely popular 140 or 147 ELD bullet heads.)
Between The CM or the REM .260 Also baring in mind the .260 also has the space to hold a grain more powder so it could possibly run that bit hotter if required. ???
We need Cartridge Science!
Would love to see a variety of bullets at a few different ranges on ballistics gel. Is there any way to stretch animal hide in front of the gel and/or implant a bone in ballistics gel for a more realistic test?
Would LOVE to see y’all do a hog hunt/ballistics gel comparison between the two. Would especially love if you snuck in a 300 Blackout too
My 2 cents from experience. Both would be excellent hog cartridges. Commonly hogs are
@@500spectre I’m going to build out an AR-10 and I think I’m leaning.308 just for cost of Ammo. But I absolutely agree!
@@exodusz19 Some advice you probably don't need, ( ha ha) just remember to compare the cost of ammo that you will shoot the most. Or if you plan on reloading some day. I like you compare ammo price. I would say, practice is more important than having fancy stuff that you don't use much.
Idc if it takes months, years. I want to see ordinance gel tests of the top 5 most common bullets in the top 3 cartridges of every caliber from .22 to .50. I'll take a 100 yard test, but I would like to see tests at 300 and 500
If ballistics gel tests are performed, please test bullets at ranges/velocities of extended ranges. Terminal performance at extended ranges of 600 yards would be more relevant than 100 yards in todays world. At least test certain long range bullets such as ABLR and or federal terminal ascent at the 600 yards.
I would LOVE to see ballistics gel tests at 300 yards. That would help separate the wheat from the chaff both in bullet choices and cartridge choices. Shooting ballistics gel at 10-25 yards isn’t meaningless, but 300 yards would be MUCH more interesting to me.
My compliments for taking on an issue that nobody else wants to talk about. J/K. One of my hobbies is long-range bench shooting. I do apply some of that to seasonal whitetail hunting. I shoot both 308 Winchester and 6.5 CM. Neither is my first pick for Whitetails here in Northeast.
What I can tell you is the the 308 is less expensive to shoot and more versatile due to availability of bullets and powders. However, the 308 is more of a struggle to shoot well beyond 600 yards. The 6.5 is much easier to shoot. It has less recoil to manage and is more wind resistant. Hitting distant targets requires less elevation and windage adjustments and lower recoil makes impacts easier to spot.
You can shoot the 6.5 a lot before you get tired of it and it is natural for people to choose such a gun for hunting. Nevertheless, the 308 has more to teach a shooter. If you can shoot a 308 well, you can shoot anything well.
Just get both. Shoot the 308 while the 6.5 cools down.
Distance being the factor for me, i shoot a 308. I do not hunt where i would ever have a shot over 250 yards. If i had shots over 400, 500 yards i may very likely reconsider and get a 6.5.
I have a .300 win mag if i ever had somewhere with truly big game like elk or moose, but for my sub 250 years whitetail hunting, the .308 is beautiful.
I just bought my son a .270 after a long debate between that and the 6.5. I ultimately felt the .270 offered a few advantages.
@@mattkolden TBH, most of the chamberings you’ve listed are too much for the local whitetails. Given the size of the local deer, topography, and proximity of dwellings, something akin to a 30-30 would be more appropriate.
I think a 3 way conversation with Ryan M., Ron Spomer Outdoors and Backfires, Jim Harmer my 3 favorite goto pod casts for losing myself in total hunting rifle indulgence...
Another great podcast. I think you need to do it but the stipulation needs to be with the 6.5 Creedmoor you shoot the most popular weight bullets i.e. 140, 143, 147 grain. And with the .308 you shoot the 150 to 165 grain.
Up north low on ammo so the closest hardware store will more likely have...... or someone you meet/find has which to give/loan/sell you? If another guy forgot or ran put of ammo which is he most likely to need?
The above means the most to me.
I think you should do those objective tests for comparing cartridges, and I think you have to start by redoing the .308 vs 6.5 Creedmoor talk. 😂
As for future videos, I'd like to see a .300 WSM vs 7 PRC comparison, and a .270 Winchester vs 7mm 08 comparison. Maybe throw the 30-06 in those, too, as a "control" base to compare them.
You should do a thing with hornady on the 308 vs 6.5
You should do a cartridge showdown series in collaboration with Hornady 👍
Mini series Test: shooting pigs with lightweight bolt action (ruger American), medium weight bolt action (b14 with suppressors) and an ar10 style with night vision/ thermals and tripods. All in both calibers. And of course, with vortex optics.
Conclusion what cartridges exiles in what aspects of the hunting experience.
Do you have any experience with shooting a 125 grain 308 cartridge? 😊
Let’s get some ballistics gel and light this candle! Examining bullet construction and performance on test media, I’m looking forward to this conversation.
Request? 308 win/Barnes TTSX bullets performance, between their factory ammo weight ranges. Example 130gr vs 150gr vs 168gr.
Always enjoy 10 min talk podcast 👍!!
2 Completely different rounds that serve the hunter well, 1 originally designed to serve as a convenient military round ,1 designed to hit a bullseye at a long range distance! Both are great at what they do ! Would love to have either one!
I have, and shoot and reload both. You will find the 6.5 creedmoor will be slightly more accurate -less drop. However, you can get more weight in the 308. So given the same speed on impact it will give more energy on the target. I load to give more speed out the barrel with both, slightly. While the 308 is more easy to find over the counter, the 6.5 Creed has become easy to get too. it depends on if your hunting or target shooting. But mostly it depends on if you practice, get that?
Please explain with some proof other than opinion how the 6.5 will be more accurate. I've shot in most rifle disciplines competitively since 1996 & would love to see the proof so that I may enlighten my fellow competitors
The 6.5 projectile is also just great at basically any speed and can come in different weights. We have 6.5 Grendel, Creedmore, and PRC
Twist rates aren’t talked about enough. I have a 308 and while many loads are available, not all will work well. My Tikka doesn’t shoot anything over 165gr well with the 1:11 twist. So bullet weight options suddenly aren’t as wide if u want to be accurate with factory ammo. It’s a factor.
Good point! After I bought a BLR in 308 I called Barnes to ask them about bullet choices. With a 1:10 twist, the Barnes tech told me 162 grains was right at the edge and don’t go higher. However, a Sierra tech told me don’t worry, be happy up to 190 grains IIRC. The difference is bullet construction.
I have a Howa 1500 with a 1:10 twist and my rifle has no problem with 180gr, although I haven't tried such heavy match bullets yet. My favourite load at the moment is a 168gr ELD-M and I have no problem. To be fair, I am helped that where I live is well over 4000ft Elevation. I've been thinking of trying 175-190gr Match loads with it, I don't think I'd have an issue, but I can only guess atm.
depends on what is required to use them on. amongst many variants.
It is basically a moral imperative that you do the terminating terminal performance turmoil cartridge science segment.
And then there's the 7mm"08!
Put the 140gr bthp Barnes match burner through ballistics gel. (I’m getting 2700fps out of my 6.5 creed). At 100 yards it did pretty well through ballistics gel, and one whitetail, one feral pig, and a coyote all dropped in their tracks.
I've played a drinking game as I've listened to multiple back-to-back episodes. I take a drink every time I hear "smattering" and "folded like a five dollar bill." I'm now more than half hiccup snockered...
Definitely interested in the deeper scientific study! That's often missing when various cartridges are compared (less so on your podcast, but on the web in general). Maybe you could develop a standardized testing approach and apply it to other cartridges in the future, too? That would allow fair side-by-side comparisons of many different cartridges. Seems like you're uniquely qualified to do something like that with your carefully controlled indoor range.
Great video. These 2 being compared in this logical way shuts up the overhyped fan club on both sides. The topics they touched on is fun and interesting especially when they talk about stuff that applies to all cartridges: is versatility everything, how much do you really need, bigger and heavier is still better for dangerous situations. It sorta seems like it’s easier to hit with the 6.5 but easier to kill with the 308.
need to see a vid on the 6.5's comparison.. Creemor, PRC, Grendel
A comparison between 6.5 Creedmoor and the 7mm-08 Remington would be interesting. At least they have bullet weights in common so a more apples to apples comparison to speak would be interesting.
So Ryan, sako makes a 156g for 6.5 Creedmoor, bonded led bullet that I dropped a bear with two days ago. Shout out from Canada 🇨🇦
do they ? I'm going to have to look into that. sounds perfect for what I use my 6.5 for.
Do this, but to truly sort out the performance differences it'll have to be way beyond 100 yards. I think these cartridges are a wash inside 300 yards. I say test at 400 as very few of us (even out here in the west) really shoot much further than 400 yards. Thanks!
The talks with just you two ,are much better flowing and easier to watch. For me anyway. 😊
Can you guys talk about the 7.5x55 Swiss? I’ll keep asking 😂
😂 We hear you! It is on the list my friend!
Sounds like 3030 territory 👍🏻. I sure like my 6.5x55 Swedish. So many calibres, not enough time. The compromise? 7.5x55 Swiss?