Shotgun reloading seems to be one of those “just trust the book” corners of reloading where asking questions isn’t really allowed and when they are asked, every dark corner of the internet gets involved so you end up with no good information. This is a great series, I love it when you shed light on the more obscure topics, and this one is proving to be a big bag of cats. Now let’s just hope the secret society of shot gunners don’t come knocking to shut you up. They can’t have all their dirty laundry brought to light.
Good Morning Shannon, You're doing great on your shot shell journey! Don't let anyone tell you any different. I hope I'm not coming across as trying to poke holes in your boat, I'm just trying to help you, like you have helped all of us over the years. 1. All of your rounds make sense and they are not dumb. If you take a look at your fired hulls, the grey/black discoloration, especially around the crimp is an indication of incomplete combustion. This shows up best in the clear hulls like you are using. In future experiments when you are looking for the ideal powder, this observation can help in addition to the more obvious unburned powder in some loads. 2. While Blue Dot is not the ideal powder for this load, it will work, and especially with the experiments you are running with the goal of finding problems with slower powders. Alliant Steel powder will also do this, I have tried both down to 1.25 Oz loads. 3. The WAA12R/ CB1138 wads are great wads! Yes they are meant for tapered but you can use them in straight wall hulls just fine. I have these wads and the clear hulls you are using loaded with 10 X 0.330" buck shot, an over powder nitro card, BP original buffer, clear overshot and roll crimp. They pattern nearly twice as tight as factory. Over powder card becomes more critical when you add buffer, because the buffer can leak down to the powder also. For your final tungsten loads, you're gonna wanna use a full length wad of some kind, not just to protect the barrel and hull, but they usually give the tightest patterns. 4. I am super interested to see the results of the effects of roll crimp depth! 5. TPS, CSD, LBC, and TUPR(from precision) are all good full length wads, you'll just have to experiment to find "the best" for this load. 6. If you're looking to slit your own wads, you NEED a wad slitter! Inconsistent slits = inconsistent performance, same with wad length trimming. You can buy one from GAEP, or Gary Kaskey on FB, or make your own, but a box cutter won't be consistent enough, especially since you are riding the tungsten train. 7. With wad slitting, you control the depth(full cut to base of wad Vs. 1/2 cut depth Vs. 1/4 or 3/4 cut depth, Ect...) It's another variable, but may be helpful as long as the cuts are consistent. 8. X12X and FS12 are both good to have around, you won't be disappointed with a bag of each to play with. 9. Shorter TPS is fine, I'd still recommend something in the bottom (felt, cork, ect), just to be sure the bottom isn't going to blow out, especially with the higher inertia of tungsten(shell fires, shot stays still, wad starts moving, bottom of wad blows out, shot moves eventually, patterns and velocities suck). You can try the naked wad with lead, but I wouldn't want to take the chance with tungsten, up to you though. 10. When precision restocks, try the Precision Spherical Buffer and the TUPR wads, I hear the spherical buffer is better for tiny shot (#8 & #9) and as long as you use full length wads your hull should be fine. 11. On tapered hulls and pressure. This is the same as metallic reloading. The most relevant example I can think of was when you compared starline to LC brass with AR comp. Same charge gave you higher velocities and pressures in starline. For the nerdy science stuff... look up a short video on the Ideal Gas Law and the related gas laws(Boyle's law, Charle's law, Combined gas law, Avogadro's law). Without giving a full class in the comments section, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, anything added between the base of the primer and the base of the projectile(brass, plastic, filler, ect) decreases the volume of the system(the cartridge/shell or cartridge-bore) thus increasing the pressure RELATIVE TO the same situation without those things added. ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, anything added over the base of the projectile (more shot, buffer, higher weight projectile, crimps, ect...) will increase the inertia of the projectile requiring higher pressures to get it moving and to achieve the same velocity, RELATIVE TO the same situation without those things added. Furthermore, anything done to increase the seal between the base of the projectile and case/hull/bore will make the system "more closed or less open" increasing pressures because more of the gas particles are trapped. You can go about 10 miles deeper than this if you really wanna geek out, but these principles(and others) govern all gas powered arms from hand gonns to 155mm artillery and everything in between. 12. The key to the above paragraph is "RELATIVE TO". This begs the question, how much change in pressure does "X" cause, and how much does that change matter? I don't know. I'd guess it's more relevant if you're on the bleeding edge of max. tickling the dragon's tail, and less so if you're working up loads appropriately. Because you will see mangled wads, shredded hulls, and other pressure signs long before you pop a barrel. Keep up the good work Shannon. I sincerely hope that some of this is useful to you and/or someone else. Thanks, Respectfully, Joe
This is a fantastic series! Thank you for taking us down this rabbit hole. I'd love to see a collaboration with Taofledermaus. I think it would be awesome for your channel!
I’m glad your covering some of the same questions I personally have thought about. Like the pressure being raised due to a different hulls design or adding a shot card to the bottom of the hull.
Yes me too. Ive been learning shotshells for a few years now but dang if Johnny knows how to aproach the issues with clear thinking and just talk and think through stuff. This is a great series👍
First off, love this series dude. Answering some of shotgunning's dumbest questions. From everything I know and have learned, the reason pressures change with tapered vs straight-walled isn't necessarily case capacity. It has more to do with the space taken up by components in the chamber. Less chamber area gives less room for the same operating pressures to react. Or something like that. On another note, #8 steel is going to be worthless for everything except testing load heights. It'll be lethal to about 20 yards. I'd go a couple shot sizes bigger for sure. Your stack height and pellet count with steel will be nearly double what it is with lead. This will be a problem with 2¾ inch shells. I'd think #4 steel would be closer to stack height and pellet count of #8 lead. Another side note, if you wanna hear something really dumb. Chamber pressures make a perfect linear line depending on gauge right? 12k for 20 gauge 3" 11,5k for 12 gauge 3" 11k for 10 gauge 2⅞". This makes sense because there is less steel surrounding that wad in the barrel right? That is until you get to 3.5" 12 gauge. How is it rated to 13.5k out of that same size tube as the 3" 12 gauge? Sounds like horseshit to me. Food for thought. Thanks for doing this.
The reason I'm following this series is because I know very little about shot shell reloading, but will probably have to give it a go soon. If I understood the question you posed about why a shell with a thicker wall would increase pressure. I would say the thicker hull offers less room for expansion when the charge is ignited. When ignition occurs the case will expand out to the chamber walls. A thicker case is less room for the case to expand. If you had a case that was a foot long like you mentioned, and the shot was ten inches from the powder, there would be ten inches where the hull can expand to chamber, barrel, and compress whatever is between the powder and shot. Hence, larger case capacity equals less pressure.
A great source for shooting targets is the local body shop ! They seem to have an endless supply of large cardboard boxes, just bring a box knife and cut them down to what size you want !
What I use to punch out material for shotshell are an arbor press and a gasket makers hole punch set. I can punch out all types of material. Old school pegboard for nitros, cardboard soaked in wax. (Good quality cardboard) Types of wax you can play around with. Canning wax, beeswax, or a combination there of. Buy a roll of cork and cut in strips and punch 5-6 at a time when you layer them. Same with cardboard. Harder stuff less layers. Thanks for the series. Edited to add: If you reload the hulls with America primers look into PB primer pocket tool.
What little i know about shotshell loading, case capacity is a concern for two maybe 3 reasons. The bulkeness of the powder, the ability of the powder to be compressed, you don't want any airspace at all, and the fact shotgun operates at a much lower psi then say a rifle. It's just a steel pipe lol.
👍 I like the idea of testing with steel. Should be good. And I like the #8 stuff. The common understanding of going two sizes larger with steel doesn't apply to testing. That was for downrange performance, not shot column performance. They make a handy wad splitter. It's a wood or plastic dowel with a couple razor blades inset at the appropriate spacing. Looks kind of like the blades on one of those nut choppers from years ago. Just press it down into the wad. One splitter can work for several guages. And it is true that the nitro cards were originally intended for placing on top the powder, but I don't see anything wrong with moving it around for testing. When I use 410 brass hulls, I place the nitro card and then a cushion wad then a plastic wad. The plastic wads are too small in diameter to fit brass hulls so something has to go under them to seal everything. I also sometimes forego the plastic wad and just use a custom mylar sleeve which I like better, but takes more time. P.S. - Mr. Weaver is correct. There's just a whisker of difference between American 209's and European 209's. If starting with European 209's, American 209's will be too loose in the pocket. You can push them in with your fingers. A primer pocket uniformer will reset the pocket for American 209's. No issues going from American to European.
My guess is that tapered hulls are used in target shells in order to concentrate a smaller powder charge in order t facilitate combustion. The taper could cause pressure spikes in narrow ranges of powder but not in large charges, hence not used. The taper may make the hull more durable for multiple loadings.
Taper wall hulls can be reloaded 10+ times. Remington STS/Nitro Gold/Win AA are all taper wall hulls. Yes, you can get very close to the same velocities as straight wall hulls but with 3-5 grains less powder but they have less internal volume for the powder charge.
Im not sure the taper has anything to do with being able to reload . I do know the plastic in sts and win aa are tougher, both were injection molded now winchester uses a tapered base wad , thats my description , and calls them win aa hs , for high strength , ive been told . Rem sts are still injection molded. I went down the rabit hole myself sorry , straight to point now . The taper is a shape charge of powder to force the energy at the wad base , exactly like high explosives can be shaped to force the energy in a desired direction .
Enjoying this series, but ready to see how your patterning goes. Primers (from more of a trap reloading perspective): I've used Fiocchi 209 primers in the past (they worked fine)........but I refuse to use them now. They are manufactured slightly larger in diameter, so that when they are used, they stretch the primer pocket in the shell base..... which requires that only Fiocchi primers will work in that shell moving forward (everything else will fall out). I think that's a dirty, self-serving trick, which is why I won't use them. Just FYI
I think you've talked me out of loading for shotgun again but I'm hoping you talk me back into it... LOL I really want to load buckshot, slugs, and turkey shells but there is so much freakin stuff in this that I was not expecting. I watched a few videos where they were loading on a press and it looked so easy then I've watched your videos and it's obvious it's not as easy as I thought it was going to be. I also did some reading and there's a bunch of contradicting info on the forums and very vague info on some of the websites so I think you nailed it there's some weird stuff going on in the shotgun world.
Buba Round Tree outdoors is fantastic for buckshot and slugs. Get your self a 31 caliber mold from Marty’s Arms. So far I have a 31 caliber 29 caliber 25 caliber and 18 caliber buckshot molds I load for 20 gauge so that works best for Me. 18 caliber stacks well in a 20 gauge TPS wad in layers of 7. Because it’s 18 times 3 makes 54 caliber across. 7 times 8 layers is just over 1 ounce of shot. Over 22 grain of Blue dot 🔵
This is not load data just what works well for me in my guns. Wink 😉 wink 😉 20 gauge Remington 3” nitro hull. Whichever western primer. 22 grains of Blue Dot 🔵 powder. Obturator 20 gas seal. 2 1/8 thick 20 gauge nitro cards. TPS 20 gauge full cut. 55 lead BB size 18 caliber stacked in layers of 7. Just over 1 ounce of weight. Original buffer and roll crimp on top of a thin card.
That target setup would've been nice for me last weekend while patterning some loads. Running back and forth after each shot to swap patterning targets pulling staples and re stapling gets old after 15-20 loads. I like the roll idea. Might need to steal your idea. 👍
Hey Johnny, there is a guy that makes wad sliters by the name of Gary Caskey. Bubba Roundtree Outdoors recommended him. His tools make it real easy to slit hulls.
If you do have troubles with velocities using the WAA12R wad, try putting a 12 gauge overshot card or 12 gauge nitro card in between the wad and powder. That way it would completely seal in a strait wall hull.
when using normal wads with steel etc, there are thin film that are used to line the inside of the wad before putting potentially harmful shot into the wad. it simply adds an extra level of protection for the barrel.
I really feel like the way to increase case pressure is by figuring out how to make your crimp harder to open or by using the crimp to compress the load tighter. With all of that said, how many shells can you pick up off the shelf from any manufacturer and shake it and hear/feel shot rattling? I know I’ve heard a bunch.
I was just thinking you might be going a little small on your steel shot selection, I think I would go with #6 for squirrel and dove then go bigger to -# 5 for Turkey then up again to #4 for duck. It’s what I use for those applications and has done a great job especially on squirrel, Turkey and duck. Great content your channel👍 love it bro.
This series is great. I know nothing about steel shot, but I think it would not be useful to develop a pattern for tungsten due to is lower density. I definitely could be wrong.
Great questions. Love your why? Attitude. I have thought of these things as well only to just accept the common answers. I can only afford few components at a time. So following BPI instructions lierally.
Try some buffer and mylar on plated lead shot when you get to doing pattern testing. Years ago I loaded some for a turkey load and they worked very well out to 60 yards. Don't remember where I got the load data but it did use blue dot and 1 5/8 shot in 2 3/4 cases
It will be interesting to see if your experiments are similar to my results from years past. I found using a taper wad in a straight hull will allow powder to move around inside the hull past the wad not a lot but noticeable. I have also put fillers on top of the powder in steel shot shells and found that it looks like a trick gun with debris flying out the barrel. I also thought that it kept the wad from sealing as well against the barrel wall allowing gas blow by. Finally, the Fiocchi hulls/primers are slightly larger than the standard 209. I use the Fiocchi hulls to make spreader shells for sporting clays and the Win 209 are loose in the pocket. Conversely, one can use a Fio in a loose primer pocket in a Rem or AA and get a few more firings.
Grand paw approves your deep dive in to shotty !!bluedot good pick ! Don’t think case capacity is a big deal! Range FPS not touchy w/Bluedot ! Have fun ! 2 years ago got a few shotguns’ this is of high interest 4me !!🎯
What is your background? You sound like an engineer. It is interesting that you are blazing new ground, or at least rediscovering info that only the shot shell manufacturers are keeping under wraps. If you want some info on splitting wads look up Buba Roundtree channel. He has some awesome content. He has a working relationship with Ballistics Products. Good luck, thanks for the hard work.
This whole thing seems so complicated. Get a wad, stick some powder behind it, load something that weighs approximately whatever the book says, and send it. 🤷♀️ maybe it’s more complicated than that. Have you tried getting in touch with the taofledermaus (sp?) fellas? They seem to have no issue stuffing random garbage in hulls and letting it fly.
Fun series. Seems like you were in a funk before this series with your release schedule which I chalk up to bending to youtube and trying to make money from videos vs. Doing videos on what intrest you and not the masses. Would like see a resurgence of the 6mm ARC. Thanks.
I reload to shoot. Sometimes I think if rather reload. Just a challenge to me, I have my loads down on my rifles but I still try different stuff. Great vids!!!
The taper makes a shape charge , same as a shape charge of explosives. In a shape charge you force the energy in a certain direction .In a cone shape the energy goes toward the big end , contrary to what one would expect .
"bad info masquerading as common knowledge" You just described everything about reloading. It's not just the unreliable garbage from expert forum clowns; the books are full of decontextualized, incomplete, or downright dangerously wrong garbage too. Trust nothing that you haven't proven yourself, and a need to defend false confidence isn't proof. You are right to start with loads that test general concepts rather than just presuming the sum of everything you're being fed and jumping straight to practical loads.
I'm pretty sure the waa12r are the ones for straight hulls. Either way u can look it up they make them for straight hulls also. Mine are green and I load in fiocchi however they r meant for a 1 ounce load
Regarding the nitro cards against the shot, would it be viable to simply test it by compressing it with a vice or something? Like put some shot in an empty hull with nitro cards on top and bottom. Use a dowel as a piston, and compress using your bench vice. Is this a dumb idea?
Couple things about ballistic products- they have a section called load of the week, there is a lot of loads on there that are not in their catalog. I’ve also heard that they are very helpful to talk to on the phone.
Starting be a great series. All this makes some kind of since with try to explore what works for you to get to Tss loads. Still shot load make for great loads where lead is a no I got some 6shot steel load here light game loads from Walmart for that and one box 3inch #3shot duck loads for if go duck hunting.
Not a comment on the video but on Patreon. A few of us wondering if you still have associated links for distributors like Midway and Brownell's so you can get a kickback?
Maybe I missed something, but what's the purpose of you wanting Tungsten? Waterfowl uses steel, but everything else is lead. Not a hunter so no dog in that fight.
Tungsten is compared to steel shot the same way a modern High BC Bullet is compared to old conventional round nose bullets. Fly’s farther faster and hits harder at long range. If you don’t hunt and just shoot targets for fun then you are better off not spending the money on Tungsten. The 2 are very different. But both have huge strengths. In different areas. Kind of like the 9mm race gun guy not sure what the PRS thing is all about.
He says in the "Day 5" video that the Ballistic Prod Advantages Manual is the one he wished he had gotten first because he said it has much more info.... ruclips.net/video/tcXEuTSdtYQ/видео.html
I love your experiments and "weird stuff" NEVER STOP! The shot shell world needs this kind of experimentation
Just keep doing what you are doing Johnny. There are plenty of us who are just learning along with you!
Shotgun reloading seems to be one of those “just trust the book” corners of reloading where asking questions isn’t really allowed and when they are asked, every dark corner of the internet gets involved so you end up with no good information.
This is a great series, I love it when you shed light on the more obscure topics, and this one is proving to be a big bag of cats.
Now let’s just hope the secret society of shot gunners don’t come knocking to shut you up. They can’t have all their dirty laundry brought to light.
Good Morning Shannon,
You're doing great on your shot shell journey! Don't let anyone tell you any different. I hope I'm not coming across as trying to poke holes in your boat, I'm just trying to help you, like you have helped all of us over the years.
1. All of your rounds make sense and they are not dumb. If you take a look at your fired hulls, the grey/black discoloration, especially around the crimp is an indication of incomplete combustion. This shows up best in the clear hulls like you are using. In future experiments when you are looking for the ideal powder, this observation can help in addition to the more obvious unburned powder in some loads.
2. While Blue Dot is not the ideal powder for this load, it will work, and especially with the experiments you are running with the goal of finding problems with slower powders. Alliant Steel powder will also do this, I have tried both down to 1.25 Oz loads.
3. The WAA12R/ CB1138 wads are great wads! Yes they are meant for tapered but you can use them in straight wall hulls just fine. I have these wads and the clear hulls you are using loaded with 10 X 0.330" buck shot, an over powder nitro card, BP original buffer, clear overshot and roll crimp. They pattern nearly twice as tight as factory. Over powder card becomes more critical when you add buffer, because the buffer can leak down to the powder also. For your final tungsten loads, you're gonna wanna use a full length wad of some kind, not just to protect the barrel and hull, but they usually give the tightest patterns.
4. I am super interested to see the results of the effects of roll crimp depth!
5. TPS, CSD, LBC, and TUPR(from precision) are all good full length wads, you'll just have to experiment to find "the best" for this load.
6. If you're looking to slit your own wads, you NEED a wad slitter! Inconsistent slits = inconsistent performance, same with wad length trimming. You can buy one from GAEP, or Gary Kaskey on FB, or make your own, but a box cutter won't be consistent enough, especially since you are riding the tungsten train.
7. With wad slitting, you control the depth(full cut to base of wad Vs. 1/2 cut depth Vs. 1/4 or 3/4 cut depth, Ect...) It's another variable, but may be helpful as long as the cuts are consistent.
8. X12X and FS12 are both good to have around, you won't be disappointed with a bag of each to play with.
9. Shorter TPS is fine, I'd still recommend something in the bottom (felt, cork, ect), just to be sure the bottom isn't going to blow out, especially with the higher inertia of tungsten(shell fires, shot stays still, wad starts moving, bottom of wad blows out, shot moves eventually, patterns and velocities suck). You can try the naked wad with lead, but I wouldn't want to take the chance with tungsten, up to you though.
10. When precision restocks, try the Precision Spherical Buffer and the TUPR wads, I hear the spherical buffer is better for tiny shot (#8 & #9) and as long as you use full length wads your hull should be fine.
11. On tapered hulls and pressure. This is the same as metallic reloading. The most relevant example I can think of was when you compared starline to LC brass with AR comp. Same charge gave you higher velocities and pressures in starline. For the nerdy science stuff... look up a short video on the Ideal Gas Law and the related gas laws(Boyle's law, Charle's law, Combined gas law, Avogadro's law). Without giving a full class in the comments section, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, anything added between the base of the primer and the base of the projectile(brass, plastic, filler, ect) decreases the volume of the system(the cartridge/shell or cartridge-bore) thus increasing the pressure RELATIVE TO the same situation without those things added. ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, anything added over the base of the projectile (more shot, buffer, higher weight projectile, crimps, ect...) will increase the inertia of the projectile requiring higher pressures to get it moving and to achieve the same velocity, RELATIVE TO the same situation without those things added. Furthermore, anything done to increase the seal between the base of the projectile and case/hull/bore will make the system "more closed or less open" increasing pressures because more of the gas particles are trapped. You can go about 10 miles deeper than this if you really wanna geek out, but these principles(and others) govern all gas powered arms from hand gonns to 155mm artillery and everything in between.
12. The key to the above paragraph is "RELATIVE TO". This begs the question, how much change in pressure does "X" cause, and how much does that change matter? I don't know. I'd guess it's more relevant if you're on the bleeding edge of max. tickling the dragon's tail, and less so if you're working up loads appropriately. Because you will see mangled wads, shredded hulls, and other pressure signs long before you pop a barrel.
Keep up the good work Shannon. I sincerely hope that some of this is useful to you and/or someone else.
Thanks,
Respectfully,
Joe
Metallic reloading seems easy compared to all the possible component configurations of shot shells.
This is a fantastic series! Thank you for taking us down this rabbit hole. I'd love to see a collaboration with Taofledermaus. I think it would be awesome for your channel!
I’m glad your covering some of the same questions I personally have thought about. Like the pressure being raised due to a different hulls design or adding a shot card to the bottom of the hull.
Yes me too. Ive been learning shotshells for a few years now but dang if Johnny knows how to aproach the issues with clear thinking and just talk and think through stuff. This is a great series👍
First off, love this series dude. Answering some of shotgunning's dumbest questions. From everything I know and have learned, the reason pressures change with tapered vs straight-walled isn't necessarily case capacity. It has more to do with the space taken up by components in the chamber. Less chamber area gives less room for the same operating pressures to react. Or something like that. On another note, #8 steel is going to be worthless for everything except testing load heights. It'll be lethal to about 20 yards. I'd go a couple shot sizes bigger for sure. Your stack height and pellet count with steel will be nearly double what it is with lead. This will be a problem with 2¾ inch shells. I'd think #4 steel would be closer to stack height and pellet count of #8 lead. Another side note, if you wanna hear something really dumb. Chamber pressures make a perfect linear line depending on gauge right? 12k for 20 gauge 3" 11,5k for 12 gauge 3" 11k for 10 gauge 2⅞". This makes sense because there is less steel surrounding that wad in the barrel right? That is until you get to 3.5" 12 gauge. How is it rated to 13.5k out of that same size tube as the 3" 12 gauge? Sounds like horseshit to me. Food for thought. Thanks for doing this.
The reason I'm following this series is because I know very little about shot shell reloading, but will probably have to give it a go soon. If I understood the question you posed about why a shell with a thicker wall would increase pressure. I would say the thicker hull offers less room for expansion when the charge is ignited. When ignition occurs the case will expand out to the chamber walls. A thicker case is less room for the case to expand. If you had a case that was a foot long like you mentioned, and the shot was ten inches from the powder, there would be ten inches where the hull can expand to chamber, barrel, and compress whatever is between the powder and shot. Hence, larger case capacity equals less pressure.
A great source for shooting targets is the local body shop ! They seem to have an endless supply of large cardboard boxes, just bring a box knife and cut them down to what size you want !
Good video series
What I use to punch out material for shotshell are an arbor press and a gasket makers hole punch set. I can punch out all types of material. Old school pegboard for nitros, cardboard soaked in wax. (Good quality cardboard) Types of wax you can play around with. Canning wax, beeswax, or a combination there of. Buy a roll of cork and cut in strips and punch 5-6 at a time when you layer them. Same with cardboard. Harder stuff less layers. Thanks for the series.
Edited to add: If you reload the hulls with America primers look into PB primer pocket tool.
i really wish he does some episode with mini-shells in the future.
If you put the roll of paper on the target frame it would probably get perforated by stray pellets.
Big thumb's up for JRB - goin' down rabbit holes so we don't have to - unless we want to - cuz it's fun. Freakin' rabbits.
What little i know about shotshell loading, case capacity is a concern for two maybe 3 reasons. The bulkeness of the powder, the ability of the powder to be compressed, you don't want any airspace at all, and the fact shotgun operates at a much lower psi then say a rifle. It's just a steel pipe lol.
👍 I like the idea of testing with steel. Should be good. And I like the #8 stuff. The common understanding of going two sizes larger with steel doesn't apply to testing. That was for downrange performance, not shot column performance.
They make a handy wad splitter. It's a wood or plastic dowel with a couple razor blades inset at the appropriate spacing. Looks kind of like the blades on one of those nut choppers from years ago. Just press it down into the wad. One splitter can work for several guages.
And it is true that the nitro cards were originally intended for placing on top the powder, but I don't see anything wrong with moving it around for testing. When I use 410 brass hulls, I place the nitro card and then a cushion wad then a plastic wad. The plastic wads are too small in diameter to fit brass hulls so something has to go under them to seal everything. I also sometimes forego the plastic wad and just use a custom mylar sleeve which I like better, but takes more time.
P.S. - Mr. Weaver is correct. There's just a whisker of difference between American 209's and European 209's. If starting with European 209's, American 209's will be too loose in the pocket. You can push them in with your fingers. A primer pocket uniformer will reset the pocket for American 209's. No issues going from American to European.
Long shot is the loudest powder to shot. You always know who is shooting this powder.
We need more tss load data...thank you for diving in to it!
My guess is that tapered hulls are used in target shells in order to concentrate a smaller powder charge in order t facilitate combustion. The taper could cause pressure spikes in narrow ranges of powder but not in large charges, hence not used. The taper may make the hull more durable for multiple loadings.
Taper wall hulls can be reloaded 10+ times. Remington STS/Nitro Gold/Win AA are all taper wall hulls. Yes, you can get very close to the same velocities as straight wall hulls but with 3-5 grains less powder but they have less internal volume for the powder charge.
Im not sure the taper has anything to do with being able to reload . I do know the plastic in sts and win aa are tougher, both were injection molded now winchester uses a tapered base wad , thats my description , and calls them win aa hs , for high strength , ive been told . Rem sts are still injection molded. I went down the rabit hole myself sorry , straight to point now . The taper is a shape charge of powder to force the energy at the wad base , exactly like high explosives can be shaped to force the energy in a desired direction .
Enjoying this series, but ready to see how your patterning goes.
Primers (from more of a trap reloading perspective): I've used Fiocchi 209 primers in the past (they worked fine)........but I refuse to use them now. They are manufactured slightly larger in diameter, so that when they are used, they stretch the primer pocket in the shell base..... which requires that only Fiocchi primers will work in that shell moving forward (everything else will fall out). I think that's a dirty, self-serving trick, which is why I won't use them. Just FYI
I think you've talked me out of loading for shotgun again but I'm hoping you talk me back into it... LOL I really want to load buckshot, slugs, and turkey shells but there is so much freakin stuff in this that I was not expecting. I watched a few videos where they were loading on a press and it looked so easy then I've watched your videos and it's obvious it's not as easy as I thought it was going to be. I also did some reading and there's a bunch of contradicting info on the forums and very vague info on some of the websites so I think you nailed it there's some weird stuff going on in the shotgun world.
Buba Round Tree outdoors is fantastic for buckshot and slugs. Get your self a 31 caliber mold from Marty’s Arms. So far I have a 31 caliber 29 caliber 25 caliber and 18 caliber buckshot molds I load for 20 gauge so that works best for Me. 18 caliber stacks well in a 20 gauge TPS wad in layers of 7. Because it’s 18 times 3 makes 54 caliber across. 7 times 8 layers is just over 1 ounce of shot. Over 22 grain of Blue dot 🔵
This is not load data just what works well for me in my guns. Wink 😉 wink 😉 20 gauge Remington 3” nitro hull. Whichever western primer. 22 grains of Blue Dot 🔵 powder. Obturator 20 gas seal. 2 1/8 thick 20 gauge nitro cards. TPS 20 gauge full cut. 55 lead BB size 18 caliber stacked in layers of 7. Just over 1 ounce of weight. Original buffer and roll crimp on top of a thin card.
That target setup would've been nice for me last weekend while patterning some loads. Running back and forth after each shot to swap patterning targets pulling staples and re stapling gets old after 15-20 loads. I like the roll idea. Might need to steal your idea. 👍
Hey Johnny, there is a guy that makes wad sliters by the name of Gary Caskey. Bubba Roundtree Outdoors recommended him. His tools make it real easy to slit hulls.
Winchester 1300 > Remington 870. It is unfortunate Winchester farmed-out the production of the 1300 replacement to Turkey.
If you do have troubles with velocities using the WAA12R wad, try putting a 12 gauge overshot card or 12 gauge nitro card in between the wad and powder. That way it would completely seal in a strait wall hull.
when using normal wads with steel etc, there are thin film that are used to line the inside of the wad before putting potentially harmful shot into the wad. it simply adds an extra level of protection for the barrel.
I really feel like the way to increase case pressure is by figuring out how to make your crimp harder to open or by using the crimp to compress the load tighter.
With all of that said, how many shells can you pick up off the shelf from any manufacturer and shake it and hear/feel shot rattling? I know I’ve heard a bunch.
I was just thinking you might be going a little small on your steel shot selection, I think I would go with #6 for squirrel and dove then go bigger to -# 5 for Turkey then up again to #4 for duck. It’s what I use for those applications and has done a great job especially on squirrel, Turkey and duck. Great content your channel👍 love it bro.
This series is great.
I know nothing about steel shot, but I think it would not be useful to develop a pattern for tungsten due to is lower density. I definitely could be wrong.
Great questions. Love your why? Attitude. I have thought of these things as well only to just accept the common answers. I can only afford few components at a time. So following BPI instructions lierally.
Try some buffer and mylar on plated lead shot when you get to doing pattern testing. Years ago I loaded some for a turkey load and they worked very well out to 60 yards. Don't remember where I got the load data but it did use blue dot and 1 5/8 shot in 2 3/4 cases
Doing Great, keep it up
It will be interesting to see if your experiments are similar to my results from years past. I found using a taper wad in a straight hull will allow powder to move around inside the hull past the wad not a lot but noticeable. I have also put fillers on top of the powder in steel shot shells and found that it looks like a trick gun with debris flying out the barrel. I also thought that it kept the wad from sealing as well against the barrel wall allowing gas blow by. Finally, the Fiocchi hulls/primers are slightly larger than the standard 209. I use the Fiocchi hulls to make spreader shells for sporting clays and the Win 209 are loose in the pocket. Conversely, one can use a Fio in a loose primer pocket in a Rem or AA and get a few more firings.
Grand paw approves your deep dive in to shotty !!bluedot good pick ! Don’t think case capacity is a big deal! Range FPS not touchy w/Bluedot !
Have fun ! 2 years ago got a few shotguns’ this is of high interest 4me !!🎯
What is your background? You sound like an engineer. It is interesting that you are blazing new ground, or at least rediscovering info that only the shot shell manufacturers are keeping under wraps. If you want some info on splitting wads look up Buba Roundtree channel. He has some awesome content. He has a working relationship with Ballistics Products. Good luck, thanks for the hard work.
You should try some BB loads in the future . Copper head BB's from Wallly world make great shot loads and economical .
This whole thing seems so complicated. Get a wad, stick some powder behind it, load something that weighs approximately whatever the book says, and send it. 🤷♀️ maybe it’s more complicated than that.
Have you tried getting in touch with the taofledermaus (sp?) fellas? They seem to have no issue stuffing random garbage in hulls and letting it fly.
Shotgun loads are like rifle loads. You have to find out which one works best for your hunting and your shotgun.
Fun series. Seems like you were in a funk before this series with your release schedule which I chalk up to bending to youtube and trying to make money from videos vs. Doing videos on what intrest you and not the masses. Would like see a resurgence of the 6mm ARC. Thanks.
You should remember that steel is much lighter than tungsten. Look at the volume of tungsten in a 1oz load versus steel or lead.
I reload to shoot. Sometimes I think if rather reload. Just a challenge to me, I have my loads down on my rifles but I still try different stuff. Great vids!!!
The shot groups in this series have been pretty loose 😂
The taper makes a shape charge , same as a shape charge of explosives. In a shape charge you force the energy in a certain direction .In a cone shape the energy goes toward the big end , contrary to what one would expect .
From what I understood with tapered hulls it was compared to a shape charge explosion vs a flat explosion where it pushes on all sides eventually.
I’m really enjoying the series…with your wallet
"bad info masquerading as common knowledge"
You just described everything about reloading. It's not just the unreliable garbage from expert forum clowns; the books are full of decontextualized, incomplete, or downright dangerously wrong garbage too. Trust nothing that you haven't proven yourself, and a need to defend false confidence isn't proof. You are right to start with loads that test general concepts rather than just presuming the sum of everything you're being fed and jumping straight to practical loads.
I'm pretty sure the waa12r are the ones for straight hulls. Either way u can look it up they make them for straight hulls also. Mine are green and I load in fiocchi however they r meant for a 1 ounce load
Loading to gain knowledge is useful in it's self so the loads you loaded were most useful by definition
It's called a "shot" cup for a reason.
The shot sits in it
Regarding the nitro cards against the shot, would it be viable to simply test it by compressing it with a vice or something? Like put some shot in an empty hull with nitro cards on top and bottom. Use a dowel as a piston, and compress using your bench vice.
Is this a dumb idea?
Couple things about ballistic products- they have a section called load of the week, there is a lot of loads on there that are not in their catalog. I’ve also heard that they are very helpful to talk to on the phone.
💪🏼♥️🙏🤟🏽👍🏼
If you can find pallet pads easier to get than rolled heavy wrap my best to you
Where did you find the .410 hulls?
Starting be a great series. All this makes some kind of since with try to explore what works for you to get to Tss loads.
Still shot load make for great loads where lead is a no I got some 6shot steel load here light game loads from Walmart for that and one box 3inch #3shot duck loads for if go duck hunting.
Not a comment on the video but on Patreon. A few of us wondering if you still have associated links for distributors like Midway and Brownell's so you can get a kickback?
Do you plan on doing a slug segment?
Did you look at the TPS 46 &47 wads as they have a built in compression section.
Don't know why you're messing around with tungsten shot, crossman BBs from walmart work just fine on goose with the MG42 wad and Longshot powder.
Its for longer range turkey hunting...bb sized shot on turkey is illegal in several states as well
😄😃😀👍‼️
For splitting wads, try the "Safe T" wad splitter (ruclips.net/video/jKVtiVZ0xzo/видео.html). These are available in 10, 12 & 20 ga.
Maybe I missed something, but what's the purpose of you wanting Tungsten? Waterfowl uses steel, but everything else is lead. Not a hunter so no dog in that fight.
@@bottomlands I don't even begin to understand that response.
Tungsten is compared to steel shot the same way a modern High BC Bullet is compared to old conventional round nose bullets. Fly’s farther faster and hits harder at long range. If you don’t hunt and just shoot targets for fun then you are better off not spending the money on Tungsten. The 2 are very different. But both have huge strengths. In different areas. Kind of like the 9mm race gun guy not sure what the PRS thing is all about.
@@mitchbertone3809 You rode the short bus, didn't you.🤣
Regulations say no lead for waterfowl because of toxicity so the shot must be non toxic.👍
@@edwardfirebear5783 I know that, I said steel shot for waterfowl. I was asking why he wanted Tungsten instead of steel.... DUH
I think the csd has to be split before loading. Maybe someone with more knowledge can way in here.
Can someone just tell me why tungsten and not steel for hunting . Like why bother with expensive shot?.
Forgive my ignorance
Tungsten is heavier hits harder with better energy to target compared to plain steel.
Which is better the Lyman manual or the Ballistic Products manual?
He says in the "Day 5" video that the Ballistic Prod Advantages Manual is the one he wished he had gotten first because he said it has much more info.... ruclips.net/video/tcXEuTSdtYQ/видео.html
Thank you
What about putting the filler wad over the shot?
Check out bubba roundtree