First and foremost Marry Christmas. I can assure you every turkey that I have harvested has never asked me if I used tungsten or lead. Don't t over think it, it's a scatter gun and designed to be so for a reason. That being said I am going to really enjoy this series to see what rabbit holes you are going to go down.
I am 41 and for my self I always find my self going back to the older calibers. It's like having a classic car and putting the time into it to make it modern. It's one of a kinds its a treat its the chance to say hold up wait a min this still does it. Much like 270win
Can’t wait to watch your videos and listening to how you work through your thought process. I began reloading by watching your videos and now I think I have to begin reloading for shotguns! The wife is going to be stoked!
100% agree about alarmists in the shotgun world. Also 100% agree about steel bridging. When the Fed Black Cloud, Win Blindside, and hyper velocity craze happened a decade or more ago, stories of blown barrels started hitting the forums. A lot of those offerings included shot that was cubed or not round. I ain't no scientist but messing with shot that wasn't round, paired with much higher velocities, have created much higher pressures.
Really interesting series of videos, and you bring up a different take on the tungsten or TSS shot than I've heard before. Seems like everyone is hammering on how many more pellets per ounce you can get in the shell for an equivalent ounce weight of shot charge. Looking at terminal performance between different shot sizes for each metal and matching number of pellets of lead to number of pellets of tungsten for effect on game makes a lot of sense - both from a shell efficiency standpoint and economic. Looking forward to where you go with this one
It's like the industry thinks we enjoy punishing recoil. I don't need to liquefy a turkey's head. Even with lighter loads, you're still going to get the bonus of more effective range since the much smaller pellets have less drag and lose energy slower. I haven't seen much load data for light TSS loads, so it's probably going to take some fun testing and experimenting.
Veteran tungsten reloader here. Assuming you use a wad designed for tungsten, there is nothing to fear when shooting it in your full choke barrel. As to the question of whether TSS dislikes tight chokes, I shoot 2oz TSS #8 loads out of both my 12 gauge Remington 870 and Mossberg 930 using a .660 constriction. I have gotten 199 pellets in a 10" circle and 65 pellets in a 5" circle at 50 yards. The TSS #9 load is even better but I can't use it in the states where I hunt turkeys. In my experience, the mylar wrap is unnecessary when you use a wad designed for tungsten.
I just wish we could get flight control wads aftermarket Also makes me want to experiment with the larger tungsten buckshots you can find meant for coyote’s and deer say #4 or #1 I’d love to see some of those done in 12g and see it in gel to see how deep it goes
I shoot a Carlson Extended extra full turkey choke in my 12ga and 20ga and I've shot every type of heavy shot, tungsten, and lead there is for turkeys with those chokes. I do like #5 or #6 heavy shot and I think I have some #7 and #9 tungsten I shoot for turkeys and I've patterned all those different types of shot with both guns and it's insane how well those chokes, my shotguns, and that shot patterns. I've killed turkeys at almost 60 yards with the tungsten and 45ish yards with the heavy shot. So as far as shooting a super tight choke go full speed ahead I've shot a ton of it. I can't wait for the loading to start because I'd really like to get into loading stuff for turkey, deer, and coyote hunting because turkey shells and buckshot is ridiculously expensive!!
The "shot is going to scratch/ruin your barrel is the Fuddiest of Fudd lore, you can shoot any shot appropriate for your gun with no issues, you can also take your chokes out completely, which I often do for early season duck hunting and close shots at sporting clays. You will not ruin your threads," also Fudd lore" , as the shot is still in the wad for quite a while AFTER it leaves the barrel....
Reloading shells is so simple and yet seems so confusing. I spend twice as much time doing research than reloading. Bubba realtree outdoors can be a vast wealth of knowledge. I know he has videos on making steel shot. Maybe reach out for advice.
Any question I’ve had about shot shell stuff, he’s answered via his email in a very timely manner. Probably has the most knowledge out of anyone on yt.
The bulk of the choke issues I've seen about steel shot, are with older thinwall barreled guns, mostly prewar, but can occur on guns right up into the 70's, after that it would seem the barrel material had a change. It doesn't occur right away, it happens over a period of time, although bulges can occur PDQ, some are visible, some have to be measured to detect. The scratching of barrels occurred mostly in the 80's when steel loads were being developed and the wads were not available/used to/by reloaders in the first couple of years as far as I remember, from people using wads that were too short. And nowadays there can be pressure issues for older guns with the high speed loads, such as the 1550fps and above. Lot of older break actions can shoot loose a lot faster with using those loads, and many were not designed for that pressure level. These days the European guns have two CIP proof ratings for steel shotshells, and the high pressure rounds have warnings in the box. Guns had a new updated proof test about 10-12 yrs ago too.
I'm with you on keeping an old gun running. Only thing left original on my first deer rifle is the barrel. And I'm thinking about getting a new one that's threaded and turn it into a subsonic 308 rifle.
There’s soft steel and there’s harder Tungsten and they are both harder than lead. I’ve got a modified H&R for my son and the steel seems pretty hard. No damage from years of waterfowling with Heavy Metal loads. My old Model 12 has softer steel, and I wouldn’t even think about it. Bulged my 20 ga Eibar Spanish double shooting steel!
If pellet hardness has no effect on damaging barrels or chokes, then why do manufactures rate some modified or full chokes for lead or bismuth only? It's not the actual pellets touching the barrel that causes damage when going through the choke, but rather the entire shot column. When in the barrel, shot is more like a slug than individual pellets. Using too tight a choke not rated for hard shot is inviting dangerous pressures into your gun by essentially creating a bore obstruction. And given that SAAMI specs are only around 15kpsi for most shotshells you don't have much room to play with. If you wanna blow up your own gun that's fine, but advocating to the masses to do it in theirs borders on negligent.
I have been shooting .410 since I got my grandpaws gun. Never shot steel just lead but the barrels are marked modified and its tight. Great rabbit gun with 7.5 shot.
A whole lot of the old time shotgun guys, especially in England, will tell you that the 3” 410 shells pattern worse than the 2 1/2” shells and that most are choked too tight. A “square “ load was standard for black powder and early smokeless loads. Matching powder and shot by volume. Adjust as needed
I’ve done all this. Almost to a T. Same components and reloaders and in 16ga. With prices the way they are and time at a premium I just mostly shoot BOSS shotshells bismuth. They also make tungsten shells in all gauges but I haven’t tried them yet.
One aspect about you, is you pull your resources and research, research, research. also, you point out that just because it is a popular belief does not mean that it is true. So, again, it is about your content and honesty and that you WILL say "I don't know what I'm doing" admitting that you are still learning. -Dave
Getting caught up on your videos. I have a 24” stoeger M3500. Shooting TSS 7,8,9 shot ammo has really made my factory Turkey choke stick. It hard to get out after it’s been tighten down. The end of the choke that goes inside looks a little beat. This gun has shot tons of light 2 3/4” 7-8 shot and 3.5” duck loads with the improved cylinder or skeet choke. Only shoot Winchester super x, tss and some #4 Turkey load through the Turkey choke.
I could possibly see with the H&R 410 and its unknown age possibly having a barrel made of a softer grade of steel and the choke possibly being opened up when the tungsten shot is driven through it if using a large enough size of shot.
I reload tungsten in 410 and have several chokes for my Rossi Tuffy turkey. i have two Indian creek and one patternmaster depending on the shot size I shoot 10's, 9.5's or 9's will depend on the choke i use the smaller shot does better than strait 9's. the best load I have found for my gun is a 50/50 mix of 9.5's and 10s out of at Indian creek .390 constriction choke. i am averaging 160 to 170 pellets at 40 yards in a 10-inch circle. i have killed several turkeys with it and every one of them go straight down it's been impressive especially since i can kill one just as well as my buddy who is hauling around a 9lb 12ga because he thinks you have to use one to kill birds.
#9 shot fails this test in .410 bore. It is labeled as .080" so x6 is .480". This is very interesting info. I never really thought to search about the topic of bridging in other contexts. I wonder if it's spheres vs irregular particles that accounts for failing your rule of thumb. All of this makes my brain hurt. Thanks for the comment.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench probably has a lot to do with the number of particles and their velocity. There’s a limited amount of shot over a short period of time to bridge. In a frac operation your sending millions of grains of sand through a perforation over a longer period of time.
@@mckimmym got that right. Use work in frac me and my brother both. I did containment and then went water transfer. He did water transfer then drilled and then went on to frac with one of big crews for awhile to fall in 2019-2020
I could still see tungsten causing a bridging problem in the full choke if these 2 criteria are met: 1. When poured into the wad, the shot forms a perfect (or nearly perfect) layer at the bottom of the wad, filling it's diameter. If it's nearly perfect, then under acceleration, the bottom layer is likely to get filled completely. 2. The ID of the wad is larger than the ID of the choke. If the choke is smaller, then then you will run out of plastic compression. I admit, it's unlikely. I know a guy who fired a few boxes of steel through a fixed full choke without issue. I also know of a Winchester 1897 fixed full that was banana peeled by a 3" steel load. My local gun shop has (had?) it. It's not something that will happen every time, just something that may happen.
Your chokes are fine the way they are tss will work, you said something about the UK they are not just changing to steel they want to go green with no plactic wads also that's why they are worried about steel on barrels
I'm inclined to believe at least the majority of warnings about shooting modern shot shells in older guns is snake oil and/or selling points trying to get you to buy a new gun or something. Now I absolutely do not advocate shooting modern, high pressure shells in old black powder guns or anything made pre-1950's. Very few shotguns made before the mid 50's, outside of some military guns were made with barrels and actions to handle the pressures of today's ammo. To get to my point, I used to own a H&R .410ga shotgun exactly like the one you have. I shot anything and EVERYTHING made that fit in the chamber and never had any issues. I might very well have been on the ragged edge of exploding it without knowing any better on numerous occasions. I shot many, many steel shot shells at pheasants and upland birds where lead wasn't allowed and even a few boxes of the first tungsten turkey loads. I'm really not convinced there is any inherent danger in shooting tungsten from any shotgun as long as it was made with good steel for modern pressure ammo.
Do you have or do you plan on making a video about dialing in shot shell patterning? I’ve tried my hand at loading some 12ga #4 buckshot with the Lee Load All, but all of my loads seem to have like 2-3ft patterns at just 7 or so paces. Granted, I am incredibly new to the world of reloading, but like you said in one of your other shotshell videos, it seems to be quite hard to find any consistent info about this particular subject.
Johnny I highly highly recommend calling boss shotshell and speak to Brandon Cerecke (the owner) with all your ballistic questions. He’s a wealth of knowledge with all things you’re wondering and he’s a real down to earth guy.
I killed a lot more ducks and got better patterns with my Improved Cylinder and Modified choke tubes than my Full tube here in Alaska. Full was too much choke for tungsten steel, and patterns were erratic-see for yourself on this!
I'm new to shotgun info. You are really getting into the nitty gritty. But just wondering. Could you just get a newer barrel to shoot tss? Then you could just switch back in needed
I never understood all of the attention Turkey got. The rules allowed for us to shoot Grouse with a 22. We just shot them with whatever we were carrying. Those big birds go down with a headshot from an 06 just like Grouse. They must have a better PR representative. Just walk around with an old 22 rifle. Camouflage is for hiding from the Game Warden.
I use to run federal 12ga 1 3/4 oz #6 3in. Mag flite control when federal first release it the junk flite control they have now is not worth purchasing 5 different turkey choke tube an still no better. That's why I went to a 20ga with long beard xr #6 but now u can't even get that so tss was pretty much everyone next best rds to shoot. But at the cost alot of folks can't afford it 60 to 70 dollars for 5rds is crazy.
What about brass 410 cases. Since it's a single shot it could be an option. I bought some years ago to reload for my single shot 410 but haven't got around to playing with them yet.
To be honest the forcing cone work might be over kill and a waste of money too...to all the people that think shooting steel and big shot size thru full chokes has never paid attention to the waterfowl choke and ammo market
You want to get rid of that 1300 I'll take it off your hands lol. Need a longer barrel for mine😉 Love the wood that's on the bench though. Is that after market?
Mine is the 1300 Defender with and 18" barrel and full length mag. It has a 3" chamber but I have to admit shooting 3" shells isn't pleasant lol. I put a 5 round carrier on the receiver and replaced the stock with an adjustable one. I also replaced the pump with a tri-rail one.
Idk...I'd rather just shoot lead....for one, I have it to load, I have a lead dripper to make #5 shot, I just dont get the hype on tungsten if its so expensive.
The shotgun world is full on alarmist. It has got to be one of the worst reloading communities to have discussions in. There are guys that literally think a primer change will blow a gun up. I am not arguing that it may increase or decrease pressure, but not blow up the gun. If you are that close to blowing up a gun that a primer change causes a gun to blow up, that’s a different discussion. Most of the guys are concerned about following the book to a T!
Excellent video- I'm making this comment prior to watching all of the vids in this series.....but will do that next. On my 2 now teenage boys' shotguns (20ga 870, & 12ga Win 1500XTR) after having sub par patterns from factory produced chokes and "turkey loads"........I/we built new screw in chokes. It made a marked improvement (290% better @ 40yds) in the pattern, using factory turkey loads. Then switched to TSS....... amazing results & they've killed a lot more turkeys!! A couple of thoughts: - It wouldn't be overly difficult to put screw-in chokes in your 410; and shooting TSS through them won't hurt anything, so long as the choke is a good quality steel. The good chokes have held up great through quite a few shots; I did have a choke that I made from 416ss split axially along the threads/forcing cone......which might have happened regardless of ammo, due to the relative softness of the steel (it's not meant/used for chokes, for this reason). Due to the cost, I've considered loading up TSS shells....and am interested in where you take this series. Thanks
How about two shot targets? Same distance, same gun, same shell… just one before and one after gun smithing. Simple performance test without too much effort.
I think I get it now. Objective 1 - create a long range turkey load. Tung$ten $hot being denser than lead shot is optimum for this. Objective 2. decrease the amount of shot used per round to decrease the cost per round using Tung$ten $hot. 410 shotgun is optimum for smaller shot loads. After watching your linked video and these guys trying to destroy a 410 ruclips.net/video/wAnbDvLIAac/видео.html I think that if you stay with a safe load charge weight you will have no issues. Run with what you've got you may find what you have works just fine for the task at hand. I'd think Steel and Tung$ten would pattern about the same so you could do some pattern testing in steel before shooting the Tung$ten
Believe it or not, but a 3/4 oz load of TSS #9 in a 410 matches the pellet count of a 2 ounce 12 gauge load of #4 lead (273-ish), with comparable down range ballistics.
Assuming you are a rifle shooter...imagine all of your bullets got 1.7 times heavier tomorrow. Same size, stabilized by the same twist rate, just a whole lot heavier. The standard 140gr 6.5mm would now be a 240gr. 6.5 Creedmoor with a 240gr SMK. Holy crap. How much better would the terminal performance be? How much better would the external ballistic performance be? What powders would you use? That's what's going on with tungsten in shotgun. It is revolutionary.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench i see where your coming from but the distance you usually shooting a turkey at with tungsten doesn't really matter over lead both will kill it. I've always wondered why we don't just use something like a .22lr and head shoot. No chance of pellets in the meat and you can take them out at further range.
@@Lethal_Intent If your state game laws allow it go for it. Be sure to take video and post it. I for one would like to see that hunt. Last time I checked rifles for turkey was not allowed in Wisconsin.
Tungsten in our shop we've never seen anything to say it damages barrels but its not shot as widely yet so might be wrong. Steel on the other hand I've seen many many guns (in the hundreds) with damage from chamber scarring using a smaller cartridge like a 2 3/4 in a 3 1/2 to ring bulges to blown out chokes to the last several inches blowing open like a tulip. Damage caused from cartridges ranging from steel clay loads to things like blindsides. The biggest cause of any damage is using a choke too tight especially on multichoke guns.
try looking up what those 1300 turkey models are going for... if you think they are worthless you are a dummy. i had one, i traded it for a model 70 classic stainless rifle in 243win. they might have been cheap back when they still made them, but they have become a rather sought after pump. and my 1300 turkey wasnt even a nwtf model, it looked just like yours only didnt have the nwtf logo. regular model 1300's can be found for $300-$500 but the turkey model goes for more.
First and foremost Marry Christmas.
I can assure you every turkey that I have harvested has never asked me if I used tungsten or lead. Don't t over think it, it's a scatter gun and designed to be so for a reason.
That being said I am going to really enjoy this series to see what rabbit holes you are going to go down.
You know how to build suspense! Still watching this with anticipation. Very cool series.
I am 41 and for my self I always find my self going back to the older calibers. It's like having a classic car and putting the time into it to make it modern. It's one of a kinds its a treat its the chance to say hold up wait a min this still does it. Much like 270win
Can’t wait to watch your videos and listening to how you work through your thought process. I began reloading by watching your videos and now I think I have to begin reloading for shotguns! The wife is going to be stoked!
100% agree about alarmists in the shotgun world. Also 100% agree about steel bridging. When the Fed Black Cloud, Win Blindside, and hyper velocity craze happened a decade or more ago, stories of blown barrels started hitting the forums. A lot of those offerings included shot that was cubed or not round. I ain't no scientist but messing with shot that wasn't round, paired with much higher velocities, have created much higher pressures.
Really interesting series of videos, and you bring up a different take on the tungsten or TSS shot than I've heard before. Seems like everyone is hammering on how many more pellets per ounce you can get in the shell for an equivalent ounce weight of shot charge. Looking at terminal performance between different shot sizes for each metal and matching number of pellets of lead to number of pellets of tungsten for effect on game makes a lot of sense - both from a shell efficiency standpoint and economic. Looking forward to where you go with this one
It's like the industry thinks we enjoy punishing recoil. I don't need to liquefy a turkey's head.
Even with lighter loads, you're still going to get the bonus of more effective range since the much smaller pellets have less drag and lose energy slower.
I haven't seen much load data for light TSS loads, so it's probably going to take some fun testing and experimenting.
Considering the cup is what touches the barrel, if you want a tungsten load that's 1oz just use 1oz lead data and work out your packing.
Veteran tungsten reloader here. Assuming you use a wad designed for tungsten, there is nothing to fear when shooting it in your full choke barrel. As to the question of whether TSS dislikes tight chokes, I shoot 2oz TSS #8 loads out of both my 12 gauge Remington 870 and Mossberg 930 using a .660 constriction. I have gotten 199 pellets in a 10" circle and 65 pellets in a 5" circle at 50 yards. The TSS #9 load is even better but I can't use it in the states where I hunt turkeys. In my experience, the mylar wrap is unnecessary when you use a wad designed for tungsten.
JRB, you have a knack of explaining some complex topics. Thanks for an interesting channel.
I just wish we could get flight control wads aftermarket
Also makes me want to experiment with the larger tungsten buckshots you can find meant for coyote’s and deer say #4 or #1
I’d love to see some of those done in 12g and see it in gel to see how deep it goes
I shoot a Carlson Extended extra full turkey choke in my 12ga and 20ga and I've shot every type of heavy shot, tungsten, and lead there is for turkeys with those chokes. I do like #5 or #6 heavy shot and I think I have some #7 and #9 tungsten I shoot for turkeys and I've patterned all those different types of shot with both guns and it's insane how well those chokes, my shotguns, and that shot patterns. I've killed turkeys at almost 60 yards with the tungsten and 45ish yards with the heavy shot. So as far as shooting a super tight choke go full speed ahead I've shot a ton of it. I can't wait for the loading to start because I'd really like to get into loading stuff for turkey, deer, and coyote hunting because turkey shells and buckshot is ridiculously expensive!!
The "shot is going to scratch/ruin your barrel is the Fuddiest of Fudd lore, you can shoot any shot appropriate for your gun with no issues, you can also take your chokes out completely, which I often do for early season duck hunting and close shots at sporting clays. You will not ruin your threads," also Fudd lore" , as the shot is still in the wad for quite a while AFTER it leaves the barrel....
Before this series, I thought I knew nothing about shotguns and shot ammo. Now I know that I know even less than nothing.
Really appreciate these vids
Jrb liking these videos merry Christmas agin brother.
Reloading shells is so simple and yet seems so confusing. I spend twice as much time doing research than reloading. Bubba realtree outdoors can be a vast wealth of knowledge. I know he has videos on making steel shot. Maybe reach out for advice.
Any question I’ve had about shot shell stuff, he’s answered via his email in a very timely manner. Probably has the most knowledge out of anyone on yt.
@nt_wicked_bunch2717 he has always replied very quickly to a comment with questions on his video's.
The bulk of the choke issues I've seen about steel shot, are with older thinwall barreled guns, mostly prewar, but can occur on guns right up into the 70's, after that it would seem the barrel material had a change. It doesn't occur right away, it happens over a period of time, although bulges can occur PDQ, some are visible, some have to be measured to detect. The scratching of barrels occurred mostly in the 80's when steel loads were being developed and the wads were not available/used to/by reloaders in the first couple of years as far as I remember, from people using wads that were too short. And nowadays there can be pressure issues for older guns with the high speed loads, such as the 1550fps and above. Lot of older break actions can shoot loose a lot faster with using those loads, and many were not designed for that pressure level. These days the European guns have two CIP proof ratings for steel shotshells, and the high pressure rounds have warnings in the box. Guns had a new updated proof test about 10-12 yrs ago too.
I'm with you on keeping an old gun running. Only thing left original on my first deer rifle is the barrel. And I'm thinking about getting a new one that's threaded and turn it into a subsonic 308 rifle.
Good series of videos thanks for the content
One thing I have learned about chokes is every gun is different and every different ammo shoots differently !!!
There’s soft steel and there’s harder Tungsten and they are both harder than lead. I’ve got a modified H&R for my son and the steel seems pretty hard. No damage from years of waterfowling with Heavy Metal loads. My old Model 12 has softer steel, and I wouldn’t even think about it. Bulged my 20 ga Eibar Spanish double shooting steel!
Keep it up its nice seeing you do new videos
Thank you again great information
I like the content. I also find shotshell loading confusing with so many variables. Keep the shotshell and hunting content coming please
If pellet hardness has no effect on damaging barrels or chokes, then why do manufactures rate some modified or full chokes for lead or bismuth only?
It's not the actual pellets touching the barrel that causes damage when going through the choke, but rather the entire shot column. When in the barrel, shot is more like a slug than individual pellets. Using too tight a choke not rated for hard shot is inviting dangerous pressures into your gun by essentially creating a bore obstruction. And given that SAAMI specs are only around 15kpsi for most shotshells you don't have much room to play with. If you wanna blow up your own gun that's fine, but advocating to the masses to do it in theirs borders on negligent.
Can’t shoot tungsten through a full choke? 😂
They have no idea, proceed
I have been shooting .410 since I got my grandpaws gun. Never shot steel just lead but the barrels are marked modified and its tight. Great rabbit gun with 7.5 shot.
A whole lot of the old time shotgun guys, especially in England, will tell you that the 3” 410 shells pattern worse than the 2 1/2” shells and that most are choked too tight. A “square “ load was standard for black powder and early smokeless loads. Matching powder and shot by volume. Adjust as needed
I’ve done all this. Almost to a T. Same components and reloaders and in 16ga. With prices the way they are and time at a premium I just mostly shoot BOSS shotshells bismuth. They also make tungsten shells in all gauges but I haven’t tried them yet.
One aspect about you, is you pull your resources and research, research, research. also, you point out that just because it is a popular belief does not mean that it is true. So, again, it is about your content and honesty and that you WILL say "I don't know what I'm doing" admitting that you are still learning. -Dave
Getting caught up on your videos. I have a 24” stoeger M3500. Shooting TSS 7,8,9 shot ammo has really made my factory Turkey choke stick. It hard to get out after it’s been tighten down. The end of the choke that goes inside looks a little beat. This gun has shot tons of light 2 3/4” 7-8 shot and 3.5” duck loads with the improved cylinder or skeet choke. Only shoot Winchester super x, tss and some #4 Turkey load through the Turkey choke.
I could possibly see with the H&R 410 and its unknown age possibly having a barrel made of a softer grade of steel and the choke possibly being opened up when the tungsten shot is driven through it if using a large enough size of shot.
Don't worry about the mule load the wagon.
I reload tungsten in 410 and have several chokes for my Rossi Tuffy turkey. i have two Indian creek and one patternmaster depending on the shot size I shoot 10's, 9.5's or 9's will depend on the choke i use the smaller shot does better than strait 9's. the best load I have found for my gun is a 50/50 mix of 9.5's and 10s out of at Indian creek .390 constriction choke. i am averaging 160 to 170 pellets at 40 yards in a 10-inch circle. i have killed several turkeys with it and every one of them go straight down it's been impressive especially since i can kill one just as well as my buddy who is hauling around a 9lb 12ga because he thinks you have to use one to kill birds.
Rule of thumb in the frac industry for bridging in a round hole is 6x the particle size to avoid bridging.
#9 shot fails this test in .410 bore. It is labeled as .080" so x6 is .480".
This is very interesting info. I never really thought to search about the topic of bridging in other contexts.
I wonder if it's spheres vs irregular particles that accounts for failing your rule of thumb.
All of this makes my brain hurt. Thanks for the comment.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench probably has a lot to do with the number of particles and their velocity. There’s a limited amount of shot over a short period of time to bridge. In a frac operation your sending millions of grains of sand through a perforation over a longer period of time.
@@mckimmym got that right. Use work in frac me and my brother both. I did containment and then went water transfer. He did water transfer then drilled and then went on to frac with one of big crews for awhile to fall in 2019-2020
I'm into all the information
I could still see tungsten causing a bridging problem in the full choke if these 2 criteria are met:
1. When poured into the wad, the shot forms a perfect (or nearly perfect) layer at the bottom of the wad, filling it's diameter. If it's nearly perfect, then under acceleration, the bottom layer is likely to get filled completely.
2. The ID of the wad is larger than the ID of the choke. If the choke is smaller, then then you will run out of plastic compression.
I admit, it's unlikely. I know a guy who fired a few boxes of steel through a fixed full choke without issue. I also know of a Winchester 1897 fixed full that was banana peeled by a 3" steel load. My local gun shop has (had?) it. It's not something that will happen every time, just something that may happen.
First step talk to a good gun smith !
It might be cheaper than having the barrel choked
I use steel BBS from Walmart but I do use multi metal wads.
Your chokes are fine the way they are tss will work, you said something about the UK they are not just changing to steel they want to go green with no plactic wads also that's why they are worried about steel on barrels
I'm inclined to believe at least the majority of warnings about shooting modern shot shells in older guns is snake oil and/or selling points trying to get you to buy a new gun or something. Now I absolutely do not advocate shooting modern, high pressure shells in old black powder guns or anything made pre-1950's. Very few shotguns made before the mid 50's, outside of some military guns were made with barrels and actions to handle the pressures of today's ammo. To get to my point, I used to own a H&R .410ga shotgun exactly like the one you have. I shot anything and EVERYTHING made that fit in the chamber and never had any issues. I might very well have been on the ragged edge of exploding it without knowing any better on numerous occasions. I shot many, many steel shot shells at pheasants and upland birds where lead wasn't allowed and even a few boxes of the first tungsten turkey loads. I'm really not convinced there is any inherent danger in shooting tungsten from any shotgun as long as it was made with good steel for modern pressure ammo.
Savage makes the m310 turkey 410 bolt action too
Do you have or do you plan on making a video about dialing in shot shell patterning? I’ve tried my hand at loading some 12ga #4 buckshot with the Lee Load All, but all of my loads seem to have like 2-3ft patterns at just 7 or so paces. Granted, I am incredibly new to the world of reloading, but like you said in one of your other shotshell videos, it seems to be quite hard to find any consistent info about this particular subject.
Bismuth or some other lead substitute, just not steel shot , could be used.
lets go Johnny lets blow our faces off...we got two sides
Johnny I highly highly recommend calling boss shotshell and speak to Brandon Cerecke (the owner) with all your ballistic questions. He’s a wealth of knowledge with all things you’re wondering and he’s a real down to earth guy.
A adjustable reamer could open up that 410 choke ,worked on my 10 gauge that was over choked
Now you need to add a silencerco Salvo 12 suppressor.
I killed a lot more ducks and got better patterns with my Improved Cylinder and Modified choke tubes than my Full tube here in Alaska. Full was too much choke for tungsten steel, and patterns were erratic-see for yourself on this!
I'm new to shotgun info. You are really getting into the nitty gritty. But just wondering. Could you just get a newer barrel to shoot tss? Then you could just switch back in needed
If you watch enough of tauflatermouse makes shotgun seem to be the most forgiving reloading. They shoot all sorts of stuff out of a shotgun.
I never understood all of the attention Turkey got. The rules allowed for us to shoot Grouse with a 22. We just shot them with whatever we were carrying. Those big birds go down with a headshot from an 06 just like Grouse. They must have a better PR representative. Just walk around with an old 22 rifle. Camouflage is for hiding from the Game Warden.
The difference in constriction in 410 full and improved cylinder is minimal
I use to run federal 12ga 1 3/4 oz #6 3in. Mag flite control when federal first release it the junk flite control they have now is not worth purchasing 5 different turkey choke tube an still no better. That's why I went to a 20ga with long beard xr #6 but now u can't even get that so tss was pretty much everyone next best rds to shoot. But at the cost alot of folks can't afford it 60 to 70 dollars for 5rds is crazy.
What about brass 410 cases. Since it's a single shot it could be an option. I bought some years ago to reload for my single shot 410 but haven't got around to playing with them yet.
Think 410 brass are made of 444 marlin cases
You,er rite 3/4 oz height wise mite be the ticket for your 12 got down to 1 oz in a 10ga alot of wadding nice pattern,s be safe
Lol think that h&r 410 is bad to carry, I got a h&r 10g 3 1/2 magnum 32" barrel. My dad use to use that for turkey.
I know that steel will hurt a full.choke barrel I’m not sure about tungsten
I think you’re using reverse logic for the forcing cone and the full choke. If a full choke is fine, what’s wrong with a short forcing cone?
20 gauge, if you get a new one for tss. good all around
What's your preferred website for shotshell reloading supplies? Recently started using a mec jr 600
BPI inc of mn
👍👍
It is HOG WASH. 👍🏻
You could just buy a barrel with screw in chokes
😀😃😄👍‼️
To be honest the forcing cone work might be over kill and a waste of money too...to all the people that think shooting steel and big shot size thru full chokes has never paid attention to the waterfowl choke and ammo market
You want to get rid of that 1300 I'll take it off your hands lol. Need a longer barrel for mine😉 Love the wood that's on the bench though. Is that after market?
Factory laminated stock. Love it!
I won that exact shotgun at a NWTF function years ago. It is my favorite shotgun I have ever owned!
Mine is the 1300 Defender with and 18" barrel and full length mag. It has a 3" chamber but I have to admit shooting 3" shells isn't pleasant lol. I put a 5 round carrier on the receiver and replaced the stock with an adjustable one. I also replaced the pump with a tri-rail one.
Awsome wanting to get over under cz with chockes
Idk...I'd rather just shoot lead....for one, I have it to load, I have a lead dripper to make #5 shot, I just dont get the hype on tungsten if its so expensive.
Any plans on doing 8.6 blk in the future
Not anytime soon
The shotgun world is full on alarmist. It has got to be one of the worst reloading communities to have discussions in. There are guys that literally think a primer change will blow a gun up. I am not arguing that it may increase or decrease pressure, but not blow up the gun. If you are that close to blowing up a gun that a primer change causes a gun to blow up, that’s a different discussion. Most of the guys are concerned about following the book to a T!
Excellent video- I'm making this comment prior to watching all of the vids in this series.....but will do that next.
On my 2 now teenage boys' shotguns (20ga 870, & 12ga Win 1500XTR) after having sub par patterns from factory produced chokes and "turkey loads"........I/we built new screw in chokes. It made a marked improvement (290% better @ 40yds) in the pattern, using factory turkey loads. Then switched to TSS....... amazing results & they've killed a lot more turkeys!!
A couple of thoughts:
- It wouldn't be overly difficult to put screw-in chokes in your 410; and shooting TSS through them won't hurt anything, so long as the choke is a good quality steel. The good chokes have held up great through quite a few shots; I did have a choke that I made from 416ss split axially along the threads/forcing cone......which might have happened regardless of ammo, due to the relative softness of the steel (it's not meant/used for chokes, for this reason).
Due to the cost, I've considered loading up TSS shells....and am interested in where you take this series.
Thanks
Maybe cut the barrel on the Topper? That way you would get rid of the full choke and make it easier to carry too ;)
How about two shot targets? Same distance, same gun, same shell… just one before and one after gun smithing. Simple performance test without too much effort.
I think I get it now.
Objective 1 - create a long range turkey load. Tung$ten $hot being denser than lead shot is optimum for this.
Objective 2. decrease the amount of shot used per round to decrease the cost per round using Tung$ten $hot. 410 shotgun is optimum for smaller shot loads.
After watching your linked video and these guys trying to destroy a 410
ruclips.net/video/wAnbDvLIAac/видео.html
I think that if you stay with a safe load charge weight you will have no issues.
Run with what you've got you may find what you have works just fine for the task at hand.
I'd think Steel and Tung$ten would pattern about the same so you could do some pattern testing in steel before shooting the Tung$ten
I hate turkey loads. A lighter turkey load is going to be a winner.
AR BEAR CREEK 410
why shot tungsten ten if it cost so much trouble?
Performance from it makes it worth it... even in sub gauge like 410 it performs great
Believe it or not, but a 3/4 oz load of TSS #9 in a 410 matches the pellet count of a 2 ounce 12 gauge load of #4 lead (273-ish), with comparable down range ballistics.
Assuming you are a rifle shooter...imagine all of your bullets got 1.7 times heavier tomorrow. Same size, stabilized by the same twist rate, just a whole lot heavier.
The standard 140gr 6.5mm would now be a 240gr.
6.5 Creedmoor with a 240gr SMK. Holy crap.
How much better would the terminal performance be?
How much better would the external ballistic performance be?
What powders would you use?
That's what's going on with tungsten in shotgun. It is revolutionary.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench i see where your coming from but the distance you usually shooting a turkey at with tungsten doesn't really matter over lead both will kill it. I've always wondered why we don't just use something like a .22lr and head shoot. No chance of pellets in the meat and you can take them out at further range.
@@Lethal_Intent If your state game laws allow it go for it. Be sure to take video and post it. I for one would like to see that hunt. Last time I checked rifles for turkey was not allowed in Wisconsin.
I am a gunsmith. I see no reason to modify your .410. The tungsten or steel should not cause any damage. You are correct
Tungsten in our shop we've never seen anything to say it damages barrels but its not shot as widely yet so might be wrong. Steel on the other hand I've seen many many guns (in the hundreds) with damage from chamber scarring using a smaller cartridge like a 2 3/4 in a 3 1/2 to ring bulges to blown out chokes to the last several inches blowing open like a tulip. Damage caused from cartridges ranging from steel clay loads to things like blindsides. The biggest cause of any damage is using a choke too tight especially on multichoke guns.
try looking up what those 1300 turkey models are going for... if you think they are worthless you are a dummy. i had one, i traded it for a model 70 classic stainless rifle in 243win. they might have been cheap back when they still made them, but they have become a rather sought after pump. and my 1300 turkey wasnt even a nwtf model, it looked just like yours only didnt have the nwtf logo. regular model 1300's can be found for $300-$500 but the turkey model goes for more.
I wouldn't waste time reaming the forcing cone, unless you have girly shoulders.
Tungsten is clearly a scam
1st
Third.