For anyone using my spreadsheet, its now been updated to reflect proper sustained DPS for canons, and the Helions weird firerate. i went into creation kit and the helion does in fact have a fire rate of 6, however, like the other PB particle beams its burst fire. but unlike the other PB's its Burst Delay stat is .5 seconds instead of .3, making it slower firing than any other PB burst.
Hey man just wanted to say that in addition to the thoroughly researched information you provide, the videos themselves are well put together and edited. Good quality stuff.
Great stuff! I learned about the PBO-175 firing rate error about 5 months ago when I stumbled on the original video you referenced, and I've preferred the 95MeV ever since. The re-analysis of the non-auto weapons is FANTASTIC. Time to grab Stalviet's updated spreadsheet!
Those non-automatic turrets are a little bit slept on, for the reasons outlined in this video. I have mained 2x particle turrets + 1x hellfire cannon in my recent playthrough, and while it doesn't shred as fast as full particle cannons do, it's a very FUN combat style. It's all about banking and rolling your ship, positioning yourself to allow maximum visibility and dps from your turrets. Recommended to anyone to try it out, it adds a little more depth to the otherwise simplistic ship combat. Side note: I have found the automatic / magazine fed turrets to be very buggy compared to the semi-auto ones. They will often just stop firing during combat, even though ammunition is available.
This is why managing power to weapons is a must. Fully power standard turrets (maximum dps and sustainment), while minimum or whatever is left, from shield and engine allocation, to auto cannons. Gives you sustained firing, but once lined up, you unload the auto cannons. Then pull away till you can do another strafing run or target lock on.
I guess the answer is: it is situational. It depends on what you want to counter/what scenario the weapon is used in. If you are close/you will land all shots, then non auto weapons are clearly better in terms of DPS. But you wont always be in close range. Maybe with a fast fighter, but not with a slower ship. So yeah. Good vid as always! :D
Since I typically run with turrets in the 3rd weapon slot, since I don't run with a controller & don't have any good way to remap the 3rd weapon button, so I typically have the Obliterator 250MeV Alpha Turrets in that slot, and I run with reactors that put out enough power to fully power up those as well as the weapons & shields while leaving enough left over to have the two auto particle beams I have in slots 1 & 2 with at least 25% power and at least 2 bars of power for the grav drive, if needed. I was running the regular 250MeV Alpha Beam cannons until Wize Old Wizard pointed me to some of your previous tutorials, at which point I switched out for the PBO175's for primary & vanguard Auto Projectors for secondary. Might have to switch to the 95MeV Auto Helion beams now....
I absolutely prefer non-auto weapons, as I can fire them at any point in the unpredictable fight. Auto weapons really force you to use strong boom and zoom tactics, and take time for magazine reload, often at inopportune times. I prefer general versatility, and having the weapons ready at any cross angle I may encounter. Also, I have found that non-auto weapons still fire at an adequate rate, especially A and B weapons. If you can put the max amount of power pips into a non-auto weapon, you can get their overall rate of fire to a surprisingly good level... and remember, the individual shot damage for non-auto are higher.
I typically run 1 Auto Particle beam, and 1 Non-Auto on a ship with 2-4 White Dwarf 3015 (depending on mass) and usually class b reactor, although I sometimes go for the class C. In a fight I usually go all-out while approaching, and then let the auto recharge while I'm maneuvering. On class C (low maneuver ships) (although I've built a few "fighters" with class A engines) I run 1 Auto, 1 Auto Turret and 1 Non Auto. I max the power to the non-auto then split what's left between the auto-turret & the auto. If I can keep the mass down, I think I'll try Vanguard Obliterators, and Vanguard Hellfire Autocannon, and the best non-auto I can afford for the class. Put 1 power into the Autocannon, full into the non-auto, and what's left into the Auto gun.
Yeah, I like running the PB-175 as my main weapon, then I use turrets in the 3rd slot and em weapons in the second. I power either the turrets or em, depending on whether I want to board anything. That means I only need to power 2 weapons at a time, making it easier to max out things and still have a few bars for the grav drive. I haven't played enough with the new settings to see how that will work out with extreme incoming damage, but it worked fine to take out the legendary ships on very hard before.
Great Video. I use the Vanguard Ares Particle Cannons as my Primary. I use the Obliterator 250Mev Turrets on front and Top. Then rounding out I use the KE-42 Cannon Turret. They have the best Range and Per shot damage of any Turret. Yes the Maulers do a bit more damage but not as much Range. And if your turret isn't shooting it's doing Zero DPS. I love your comment about preference and combat style. I use the Cabot Bridge so more often than not I'm Banking up to my Target so I have my Turret placement based on that especially if the Target is a little bit closer than anticipated after my bank and roll maneuver also the Cannon Turrets like a Front row seat so make sure they don't get placed in the back.
Very informative. I tend to run three different weapons but only power up two at one time. A burst pb (always has power), with a sniper pb and the v hellfire (switching back and forth depending on range)
Very informative video. I'm not much of a ship builder. And, I've always wondered why would I want to use an auto variant, when I can continuously fire with the non-auto, and never be caught with an empty mag. You chart seems to show non-auto is far superior. Thanks!
The real question is if this is just a visual thing or actual damage? Could the game files actually use the in game stats and just display a different fire rate depending on graphics settings.
As power alotment is always a major concern, I like to use 2 PBO-175s as my secondary weapons to 6 Vanguard Obliterators and 2 Nullifier 1750 EMs because they use less power than the Exterminator 95Mev, but if I have the power, I may try them out next time. Good stuff, as always!
Very well done, first video that truly tests the performance of the weapons and lays out the information for all to see. Slow clap for Bethesda. How they are not able to clearly quantify and display valuable statistics? I never trusted the damage numbers, and I shouldn't have trusted the displayed ROF. I also took for granted that the contributors to that spreadsheet had already tested and accurately calculated all of their numbers. We were deceived! Thanks for your hard work. Information like this is very valuable to the whole community!
Ouch lol. I didn't deceive, I did test every weapon to get magazine values, I just didn't have the recording software to test the fire rate so I just trusted the fire rate they gave me
@@STALVIET Bethesda deceived us all, including you. You have done excellent work trying to shed light on the real performance of the weapons and I know I relied on your spreadsheet to determine what was best. You didn’t lie to us, Bethesda did.
@@WizeOldWizard Ive been poking around in Creation Kit and found out why this is. bethesdas UI is actually correct in a way, as the fire rate for the pb 175 auto helion is indeed 6, however its also set to burst fire, with a .5 second delay between bursts, this is why the effective fire rate is lower.
@@STALVIET I noticed this when I made the change. The PBO’s bursts are definitely more rapid, but the delay between them is what tanks the perceived DPS when compared to the Exterminators. I made my weapon choices based on your spreadsheet, and I really wouldn’t be using any of these weapons if it wasn’t for your contribution to the community. Thank you again for the work you’ve put in! Also, I’m a dumbass and forgot to mention your work in my latest build. I will add a link to the description though.
Great video! Lately i felt somthing was wrong with the PBO175, now you showed what. I think the actual firerate of the 3 shot burst might be 6 but the delay between each burst is longer than any other 3-shot-burst-weapon. On another note did you look into what "range" actually means? Because with the exception of turrets, nearly all shipweapons hit targets up to a range of 3500, even laser and kinetic weapons. Range seems to be part of a formular to calculate damage, depending of the targets distance. From my meager testing it seems, weapons lose damage at half the spreadsheet range, down to half damage at full spreadsheed range. Up to twice spreadsheet range, damage stays half, past that it stays at around 40% Damage. So the higher the range, the smaller the damage-loss at greater distance. Cap is 3500, past it you do no damage.
This does a great job of clearing up numerous misconceptions about the relationship between auto-fire and single shot weapons. Anecdotally, the single shot versions feel better in a longer firefight against multiple opponents, but the data never really supported that. Assuming you fully power them, single shot weapons should be the clear winner in terms of sustained damage. I'm really enjoying your detailed videos. Is there any chance of diving into a missile boat design? I feel like a single volley from the highest damage missiles (completely filling your weapon slots with the three highest damage missile weapons) should be able to instantly destroy almost any enemy. In that case, sustain damage is basically a wash. It might be a niche use case, and maybe it's suboptimal, but I'd love to see the numbers.
Yes I have a love for the 3230s and a couple of the other slower rate of fire pbs try the ones with a rate of 2.5 to 3 or 4 , but at the moment I'm running I believe the 3230 and a auto pb with a em weapon for boarding other vessels
Do you know if skills that increase recharge speed affect semi-fire weapons? I know they refill auto magazines quicker, but do they perhaps affect the fire rate of semi weapons, or maybe allow you to allocate less power to reach the max fire rate?
If this is all being calculated based on the visuals, then there's a chance that something may be off. Is there a log of sorts that shows how much actual damage is being done in-game?
@@jonathanmoeg1202 no problem, its at least much easier now because i have creation kit. also the spreadsheet is now updated to reflect proper sustained dps for canons and the helions weird fire rate
the vanguard helffire autocannons do some wild damage, but they're such short range. They are very cheap though, so slapping six on a ship earlier into your playthrough isn't a bad idea. Plus the "i've finally gotten in range, here's a nice BRRRT to let my PBs recharge a bit" niche is useful, but idk if I'd keep them once I have the credits to put whatever guns i want on the ship. I am considering 2 particle beams + 1 ballistic instead of my previous 2 PBs + 1 EM arrangement. The kinetic autocannons fire single shots, while the particle beams fire in bursts, i've tried to disable engines before with particle beams only to blow the whole ship up. EM solves that problem, but disabling components is all they do. kinetics have more fine control over damage inflicted but, unlike EMs, can also be used to just blow up ships quicker if needed. Maybe the KE-49As will work better for me than the vanguard hellfires, since they have over 50% more range.
Thanks for this, I love the vanguard obliterators, but I find I prefer the sustain of the non autofiring weapons, course that's probably because my ships tend toward the 50-70 maneuver thruster flipped and firing backward style of combat since most multi target opfor can outmaneuver and swarm me
I love your videos, they're very informative. I actually used your last video (the one about a super lightweight and super efficient fighter, "This is fine") as a basis for a fighter of my own. IMO sustained damage in this game is far superior to burst, because burst damage is rarely going to destroy mid to high level enemies outright, and is therefore outperformed by sustained damage. My top-tier peak-offense ship uses six Vanguards, four PBO-175s, and three Exterminator 95's and it absolutely just melts enemy ships, and even with fully allocated to my shields and engines and the rest divided equally amongst weapons.. they reload fast enough to melt the next ship I target. On a couple of my ships that are more focused on aesthetics and roleplaying, I have missiles equipped. I've found the Tsukisasu 50k's to be the most effective, as you can have three equipped, they have some of the highest damage, AND (this is the big part) they can fire six missiles before requiring a reload (compared to the highest damage missiles, which only fire twice before being depleted). An almost perfect balance between burst and sustained.
I’m having fun at the moment with my ship build running max vanguard obliterators and Hellfires but then I tend to be pretty much in the face of whatever I’m fighting anyway so range isn’t much of an issue for me (and I usually have EM in slot 3 so I can disable ships if I want to board them), it always suprised me that the Ares and Starseeker weapons appear stat-wise to actually be pretty bad compared to the other Vanguard weapons, it’s like they decided that the Vanguard C Class weapons needed a serious nerfing to stop people bothering with them.
Insane work you're doing lol keep it up. I usually have one or two auto bal/part weapon and a energy weapon with 3-4 allocated to it, as i find using a magless weapon means you can just hit the shield to prevent the shield regeneration from starting. I am currently playing this run on extreme difficulty. Lol
Question and I’m sorry if you answered this before I was looking and couldn’t find it. Ok question. 6 Amun-7 engines is faster than 4 3015’s only thing is the Amuns has 200 more mass. But you have more mass to play with while making a ship with these engines.
I like those Amun-7 engines. They do have the highest boost speed, but only for a split second at the end of their boost, while the WD 3015’s have the highest consistent cruising speed, which is why I chose them.
If you boost away from enemies, use your thrusters to turn around and drift backwards, damage output matters very little as long as it's higher than their shield regen. Fight smart, not hard
I like close combat and boarding, but I don't like slow EM weapons, so I use Vanguard Hellfires to knock out engines in target mode once I deplete their shields. I've been trying to figure out the best weapons for shields though. Right now I'm using Vanguard Obliterators and Reza 10 PHz Pulse Laser Turrets. The laser turrets actually deplete shields pretty quickly, and since they do little hull damage I don't have to worry about them damaging the hull before I'm able to target their engines with my Hellfires. It's been working out well so far against high level enemies, but I don't know if it's the most optimal setup. I've tested the Obliterator 250MeV Alpha Turret in place of the lasers, but they fire so slowly and switch targets so often that they barely do any sustained dps in my experience. The laser turrets on the other hand fire quickly, so they can dish out quite a bit before I'm able to lock on. I'm not concerned about the range since I like getting in close for locking on and eventually docking. In a difficult fight, docking will allow your shield to regen to full, so after I wipe out the crew I'm refreshed to continue the fight. I'm keeping the Hellfires no matter what, and I'm leaning towards keeping the Laser Turrets for reasons I've stated, but does anyone have suggestions for something better then the Vanguard Obliterators? I'm considering perhaps trying a semi-firing weapon rather than auto. Going by the numbers, I guess the Exterminator 95MeV Helion Beam would be the best option, so I suppose I'll try them. I really only use the Obliterators to assist my laser turrets in knocking out shields though, so perhaps the Dragon 251 UV Laser should be considered, as it has higher sustained dps vs shields. I like having one of each weapon type though, so I'm not sure If i want to lose having a particle weapon, and I also don't know how much crit chance that rank 4 perk gives.
I honestly had a hard time swapping them out on some of my ships, because the ability to have 4 of them makes them nice and symmetrical, whereas weapons you can only have 3 of can be a bit trickier. So in some cases I may keep them, but that’s a me problem :)
Since this video, I have become curious if any other weapons had incorrect stats listed. I am beginning to think a lot of them do. This is entirely anecdotal, but ... I've been playing with some of the never used, "under-statted" laser weapons, and they are absolutely shredding through enemies on extreme ng10. The fire rates of some of these laser turrets in particular seem WAY higher than the listed information suggests. I think it must be related to the unlisted "delay" stat? It feels like they fire faster than the Hellfire Autocannons do, which have the highest listed fire rate in the game. I wonder if we should collectively start digging through game files or doing more field testing?
What specific laser weapons? I’m happy to look into it further. For what it’s worth, as Stalviet found in a comment I pinned, there is a burst delay stat that appears to be the primary factor here. Whereas the burst delay of the Exterminators is 0.3, it is 0.5 for the PBO-175s. When digging into the data more, the PBO-175s appear to be the only burst weapon with a delay of 0.5. Makes it seem more like a mistake than anything else. But I do believe there is potentially more to discover here, particularly regarding Sustained DPS per Power Point allocated.
@@ShipTechnician I was using the Reza 300 and Reza 10 Pulse Turrets at the time of that comment. I have played a bit more since, and I am less convinced something is amiss now. I think the turrets were just individually firing out of sequence--instead of all at once--making it seem like an insane machine gun barrage. Very cool though, it feels like you're piloting something out of Star Wars with all those red lasers on screen. However, there is another interaction that might be worth some consideration. What is the affect of the reload perks on a semi-automatic weapon? The turret trait gives +40%, and the laser/ballistic traits give +30%. Would this be a 70% fire rate increase on semi-auto non-particle turrets?
Look I'll be honest, I run the PBOs because 4 looks more symetrical and therefore better (to me) on my ships and I can't stand the grey and red color of the Exterminators lol.
Well, I feel better... I think. So - I'm working from a very old version of the Weapons sheet. No Sustained DPS column - just DPS. Guess I need to upgrade. My typical loadout is the hardest hitting magazine loaded plasma I can afford (usually the Vanguard Obliterator Auto) and the best sustained DPS Non auto. I power the non-auto to full, and put what ever is left into the Vanguards. - This is because I hate how slow the VOA fires after you empty the mag - This way I keep getting to hit the enemy while I let the magazine reload. Is this the best route? No idea, but it feels better against multiple targets. Against a single target, the double magazine dump is pretty impressive. Now I also you mods so on Extreme settings I add in TN's supplemental reactors (and occasionally the little power points or towers). Part of that is because I like my jump drive to kick in fast and I hate moving power around between units. A hotkey to switch from Combat Ready to Escape & Evade would be nice. If I don't use supplementals, (Class A) I've been too lazy to figure out the actual are results because it's complicated. 1. You don't always hit. 2. Sometimes there's no point in firing because available targets are out of range. 3. You lose your lock while maneuvering 4. You might move to a new target when you magazines are empty and you don't want to fire until they're reloaded - you just prolong the pain (I think - might just be me). Things I want to know: 1. Time to reload magazine without firing. 2. Time to reload with firing (does it ever?) 3. Time to reload increase for every 1,2,3, and 4 power points you are short of full power. (might be linear, might not) 3. Does firing before the magazine is reloaded restart the timer? (I want to say yes, but honestly, I'm always too busy to look - I'd have to record and look at the playback).
YOU GOT IT WRONG!! I am clearly the most efficient and dangerous ship weapon.. the scattered debris of my enemies attests to this. Thanks for the vid bud it’s a good clarifying point.
Damn... my brain hurts after this. I may have to rethink my standard weapon load out. I normally load 4 PBO-175's, 6 Obliterators, and 4 PBO-300's. This load out has served me well, but it may be time to switch up.
OMG...the PBO 175 Autos x 4 mops up any ship out there so fast I have to be extra carful if I want to board the ship. Stats are one thing. Actual performance in the field is another. The PBO's are sleek and look good on any ship. If you need to finish off a ship in a hurry, the Atlati 280C Missiles do the job in one hit after one or two bursts from the 175 Autos. If you want to board a ship, put the missiles on ice and once the shields are down with the 175 autos, use the Nullifier 1750 suppressors (x2) until you are cleared to board.
Did you account for max power? Sure, the Exterminator 95MeV Auto Helion Beam might beat the PBO-175 one-on-one, but you can equip four of the latter and only three of the former.
sadly ship combat is so easy in this game that I do not care, I feel like anything goes and I can kill an enemy just as easy with the worst weapons as I can with the best. If anyone know any mod that makes shipcombat better please let me know
IDK of a mod, but on a more basic level you can tweak both enemy and player Ship Damage via settings>gameplay options. Adjust yours down and the enemies up.
Not working? What does that mean? And to clarify, auto weapons are different from turrets. Turrets fire automatically (if they have power allocated to them). Auto weapon and non-auto weapons fire manually, the difference being that non-auto weapons must reload after every shot, while auto weapons have a magazine and only reload once the magazine is depleted.
Didn’t mean any offense. You’d be surprised how many don’t know that. And I can think of one time in many countless hours where my turrets didn’t fire, but that was due to the game not recognizing another ship was an enemy ship. Not sure what else could be causing that for you, but sounds like a bug
He wants to slide into ur DMs😮 Dont do it Man 😂 Hey! Seriously though will you PLEASE HELP US WITH LATE GAME ONE EM to rule them all?????? I always use a 3 rd weapon EM so A,B, and mainly C is a question I come across often and the choices all seem so different! I sometimes use a B class option over the C class options... Fully charged and sometimes barely charged...😅
If you have the EM skill leveled up to where there is a chance for it to instantly disable enemy engines it is best to prioritize fire rate so you have that many more opportunities for that effect to trigger.
There is certainly something to be said for slapping 12 power worth of Hunter Mag missiles on your ship and leaving 1 pip of power in them to sustain you through an entire fight. A Class ships could use the Infiltrator instead in a similar manner.
UI Stats Lying. FFS! How hard is it Bethesda? stop using separate data fields for UI vs Game Engine. Just make the UI do a direct memory reference! Lying guns aside, Sooo many ship stat glitches stem from this kind of disconnect.... crew, shields, etc.
For anyone using my spreadsheet, its now been updated to reflect proper sustained DPS for canons, and the Helions weird firerate. i went into creation kit and the helion does in fact have a fire rate of 6, however, like the other PB particle beams its burst fire. but unlike the other PB's its Burst Delay stat is .5 seconds instead of .3, making it slower firing than any other PB burst.
Can’t thank you enough for that spreadsheet!
How much effect does the extra range have on things like the Disruptors matter?
Which spreadsheet is this, I have a few, want to make sure I'm using the right one, thanks!
Link included in the description
Hey man just wanted to say that in addition to the thoroughly researched information you provide, the videos themselves are well put together and edited. Good quality stuff.
Why did this feel like this guy went through 6 years of school to learn all this?
He could write, present and defend a thesis on the subject.
This is what it takes to get employed at every shipyard in the settled systems simultaneously.
Great stuff! I learned about the PBO-175 firing rate error about 5 months ago when I stumbled on the original video you referenced, and I've preferred the 95MeV ever since. The re-analysis of the non-auto weapons is FANTASTIC. Time to grab Stalviet's updated spreadsheet!
Those non-automatic turrets are a little bit slept on, for the reasons outlined in this video. I have mained 2x particle turrets + 1x hellfire cannon in my recent playthrough, and while it doesn't shred as fast as full particle cannons do, it's a very FUN combat style. It's all about banking and rolling your ship, positioning yourself to allow maximum visibility and dps from your turrets. Recommended to anyone to try it out, it adds a little more depth to the otherwise simplistic ship combat.
Side note: I have found the automatic / magazine fed turrets to be very buggy compared to the semi-auto ones. They will often just stop firing during combat, even though ammunition is available.
This is why managing power to weapons is a must. Fully power standard turrets (maximum dps and sustainment), while minimum or whatever is left, from shield and engine allocation, to auto cannons. Gives you sustained firing, but once lined up, you unload the auto cannons. Then pull away till you can do another strafing run or target lock on.
I guess the answer is: it is situational. It depends on what you want to counter/what scenario the weapon is used in. If you are close/you will land all shots, then non auto weapons are clearly better in terms of DPS. But you wont always be in close range. Maybe with a fast fighter, but not with a slower ship. So yeah. Good vid as always! :D
I adore this niche nerdy gamer shit, keep up the great work, ShipTechnician!
Since I typically run with turrets in the 3rd weapon slot, since I don't run with a controller & don't have any good way to remap the 3rd weapon button, so I typically have the Obliterator 250MeV Alpha Turrets in that slot, and I run with reactors that put out enough power to fully power up those as well as the weapons & shields while leaving enough left over to have the two auto particle beams I have in slots 1 & 2 with at least 25% power and at least 2 bars of power for the grav drive, if needed.
I was running the regular 250MeV Alpha Beam cannons until Wize Old Wizard pointed me to some of your previous tutorials, at which point I switched out for the PBO175's for primary & vanguard Auto Projectors for secondary. Might have to switch to the 95MeV Auto Helion beams now....
I absolutely prefer non-auto weapons, as I can fire them at any point in the unpredictable fight. Auto weapons really force you to use strong boom and zoom tactics, and take time for magazine reload, often at inopportune times. I prefer general versatility, and having the weapons ready at any cross angle I may encounter. Also, I have found that non-auto weapons still fire at an adequate rate, especially A and B weapons. If you can put the max amount of power pips into a non-auto weapon, you can get their overall rate of fire to a surprisingly good level... and remember, the individual shot damage for non-auto are higher.
I typically run 1 Auto Particle beam, and 1 Non-Auto on a ship with 2-4 White Dwarf 3015 (depending on mass) and usually class b reactor, although I sometimes go for the class C. In a fight I usually go all-out while approaching, and then let the auto recharge while I'm maneuvering.
On class C (low maneuver ships) (although I've built a few "fighters" with class A engines) I run 1 Auto, 1 Auto Turret and 1 Non Auto. I max the power to the non-auto then split what's left between the auto-turret & the auto. If I can keep the mass down, I think I'll try Vanguard Obliterators, and Vanguard Hellfire Autocannon, and the best non-auto I can afford for the class. Put 1 power into the Autocannon, full into the non-auto, and what's left into the Auto gun.
Yeah, I like running the PB-175 as my main weapon, then I use turrets in the 3rd slot and em weapons in the second. I power either the turrets or em, depending on whether I want to board anything. That means I only need to power 2 weapons at a time, making it easier to max out things and still have a few bars for the grav drive. I haven't played enough with the new settings to see how that will work out with extreme incoming damage, but it worked fine to take out the legendary ships on very hard before.
Great Video. I use the Vanguard Ares Particle Cannons as my Primary. I use the Obliterator 250Mev Turrets on front and Top. Then rounding out I use the KE-42 Cannon Turret. They have the best Range and Per shot damage of any Turret. Yes the Maulers do a bit more damage but not as much Range. And if your turret isn't shooting it's doing Zero DPS. I love your comment about preference and combat style. I use the Cabot Bridge so more often than not I'm Banking up to my Target so I have my Turret placement based on that especially if the Target is a little bit closer than anticipated after my bank and roll maneuver also the Cannon Turrets like a Front row seat so make sure they don't get placed in the back.
Very informative. I tend to run three different weapons but only power up two at one time. A burst pb (always has power), with a sniper pb and the v hellfire (switching back and forth depending on range)
I found that I had to equip a suppressor, as my quad PBs would destroy the ship before I could disable the engines in target lock mode.
Thx for the tips, as a new player this was very helpful
Outstanding content, friend!
Thank you! That means so much. Sincerely, thank you.
Very informative video. I'm not much of a ship builder. And, I've always wondered why would I want to use an auto variant, when I can continuously fire with the non-auto, and never be caught with an empty mag. You chart seems to show non-auto is far superior. Thanks!
The real question is if this is just a visual thing or actual damage? Could the game files actually use the in game stats and just display a different fire rate depending on graphics settings.
My thoughts exactly. Damage inflicted should be worked into this analysis.
As power alotment is always a major concern, I like to use 2 PBO-175s as my secondary weapons to 6 Vanguard Obliterators and 2 Nullifier 1750 EMs because they use less power than the Exterminator 95Mev, but if I have the power, I may try them out next time. Good stuff, as always!
Very well done, first video that truly tests the performance of the weapons and lays out the information for all to see.
Slow clap for Bethesda. How they are not able to clearly quantify and display valuable statistics? I never trusted the damage numbers, and I shouldn't have trusted the displayed ROF.
I also took for granted that the contributors to that spreadsheet had already tested and accurately calculated all of their numbers. We were deceived!
Thanks for your hard work. Information like this is very valuable to the whole community!
Ouch lol. I didn't deceive, I did test every weapon to get magazine values, I just didn't have the recording software to test the fire rate so I just trusted the fire rate they gave me
@@STALVIET Bethesda deceived us all, including you. You have done excellent work trying to shed light on the real performance of the weapons and I know I relied on your spreadsheet to determine what was best. You didn’t lie to us, Bethesda did.
@@WizeOldWizard Ive been poking around in Creation Kit and found out why this is. bethesdas UI is actually correct in a way, as the fire rate for the pb 175 auto helion is indeed 6, however its also set to burst fire, with a .5 second delay between bursts, this is why the effective fire rate is lower.
@@STALVIET I noticed this when I made the change. The PBO’s bursts are definitely more rapid, but the delay between them is what tanks the perceived DPS when compared to the Exterminators. I made my weapon choices based on your spreadsheet, and I really wouldn’t be using any of these weapons if it wasn’t for your contribution to the community. Thank you again for the work you’ve put in!
Also, I’m a dumbass and forgot to mention your work in my latest build. I will add a link to the description though.
Great video! Lately i felt somthing was wrong with the PBO175, now you showed what. I think the actual firerate of the 3 shot burst might be 6 but the delay between each burst is longer than any other 3-shot-burst-weapon. On another note did you look into what "range" actually means? Because with the exception of turrets, nearly all shipweapons hit targets up to a range of 3500, even laser and kinetic weapons. Range seems to be part of a formular to calculate damage, depending of the targets distance. From my meager testing it seems, weapons lose damage at half the spreadsheet range, down to half damage at full spreadsheed range. Up to twice spreadsheet range, damage stays half, past that it stays at around 40% Damage. So the higher the range, the smaller the damage-loss at greater distance. Cap is 3500, past it you do no damage.
This does a great job of clearing up numerous misconceptions about the relationship between auto-fire and single shot weapons. Anecdotally, the single shot versions feel better in a longer firefight against multiple opponents, but the data never really supported that. Assuming you fully power them, single shot weapons should be the clear winner in terms of sustained damage.
I'm really enjoying your detailed videos. Is there any chance of diving into a missile boat design? I feel like a single volley from the highest damage missiles (completely filling your weapon slots with the three highest damage missile weapons) should be able to instantly destroy almost any enemy. In that case, sustain damage is basically a wash. It might be a niche use case, and maybe it's suboptimal, but I'd love to see the numbers.
Yes I have a love for the 3230s and a couple of the other slower rate of fire pbs try the ones with a rate of 2.5 to 3 or 4 , but at the moment I'm running I believe the 3230 and a auto pb with a em weapon for boarding other vessels
I did stalviet nova Armstrong build. That ship is so easy to navigate the interior.
Do you know if skills that increase recharge speed affect semi-fire weapons? I know they refill auto magazines quicker, but do they perhaps affect the fire rate of semi weapons, or maybe allow you to allocate less power to reach the max fire rate?
…just sent the Ship Tech 20 Terra Brew coffees on ko-fi. Don’t drink them all at the same time please 😅🤣🙏🏾
I'm a bit confused on why the Vanguard Obliterator isn't spoken of much. It seems like that should be the best, no?
If this is all being calculated based on the visuals, then there's a chance that something may be off. Is there a log of sorts that shows how much actual damage is being done in-game?
My thoughts esactly.
My man ❤ I'll need to update the spreadsheet! Also pronounced like Soviet
Thank you, both for the original work and taking onboard these new wrinkles.
@@jonathanmoeg1202 no problem, its at least much easier now because i have creation kit. also the spreadsheet is now updated to reflect proper sustained dps for canons and the helions weird fire rate
the vanguard helffire autocannons do some wild damage, but they're such short range. They are very cheap though, so slapping six on a ship earlier into your playthrough isn't a bad idea. Plus the "i've finally gotten in range, here's a nice BRRRT to let my PBs recharge a bit" niche is useful, but idk if I'd keep them once I have the credits to put whatever guns i want on the ship.
I am considering 2 particle beams + 1 ballistic instead of my previous 2 PBs + 1 EM arrangement. The kinetic autocannons fire single shots, while the particle beams fire in bursts, i've tried to disable engines before with particle beams only to blow the whole ship up. EM solves that problem, but disabling components is all they do. kinetics have more fine control over damage inflicted but, unlike EMs, can also be used to just blow up ships quicker if needed. Maybe the KE-49As will work better for me than the vanguard hellfires, since they have over 50% more range.
Thanks for this, I love the vanguard obliterators, but I find I prefer the sustain of the non autofiring weapons, course that's probably because my ships tend toward the 50-70 maneuver thruster flipped and firing backward style of combat since most multi target opfor can outmaneuver and swarm me
I love your videos, they're very informative. I actually used your last video (the one about a super lightweight and super efficient fighter, "This is fine") as a basis for a fighter of my own. IMO sustained damage in this game is far superior to burst, because burst damage is rarely going to destroy mid to high level enemies outright, and is therefore outperformed by sustained damage. My top-tier peak-offense ship uses six Vanguards, four PBO-175s, and three Exterminator 95's and it absolutely just melts enemy ships, and even with fully allocated to my shields and engines and the rest divided equally amongst weapons.. they reload fast enough to melt the next ship I target.
On a couple of my ships that are more focused on aesthetics and roleplaying, I have missiles equipped. I've found the Tsukisasu 50k's to be the most effective, as you can have three equipped, they have some of the highest damage, AND (this is the big part) they can fire six missiles before requiring a reload (compared to the highest damage missiles, which only fire twice before being depleted). An almost perfect balance between burst and sustained.
I’m having fun at the moment with my ship build running max vanguard obliterators and Hellfires but then I tend to be pretty much in the face of whatever I’m fighting anyway so range isn’t much of an issue for me (and I usually have EM in slot 3 so I can disable ships if I want to board them), it always suprised me that the Ares and Starseeker weapons appear stat-wise to actually be pretty bad compared to the other Vanguard weapons, it’s like they decided that the Vanguard C Class weapons needed a serious nerfing to stop people bothering with them.
If you get tired of making these (excellent) Starfield videos, consider doing ASMR. You've got that kind of voice.
It feels like they slowed down the 175, they felt faster a few updates ago.
As i understand, its a difference of .3 seconds per shot in a boost vs the PBO175 having a non-standard .5 second delay per shot in a burst.
I have used c class semi-auto plasma on most of my builds love them with hit and run fighting.
I'm more interested in what fits the visuals of the ship. A massive missel pod on a really tiny ship looks ridiculous for example.
And this, kids, is exactly why we don’t bully Mentats
Can you test ship EM weapons ? I don't know what the difference between class A ,B , or C is with EM weapons.
We are such a bunch of nerds. I have almost 600 hours in the game and still learn something new.
I have 250 hours and I haven’t even done vanguard or crimson fleet yet 😂
Insane work you're doing lol keep it up. I usually have one or two auto bal/part weapon and a energy weapon with 3-4 allocated to it, as i find using a magless weapon means you can just hit the shield to prevent the shield regeneration from starting. I am currently playing this run on extreme difficulty. Lol
Question and I’m sorry if you answered this before I was looking and couldn’t find it. Ok question. 6 Amun-7 engines is faster than 4 3015’s only thing is the Amuns has 200 more mass. But you have more mass to play with while making a ship with these engines.
I like those Amun-7 engines. They do have the highest boost speed, but only for a split second at the end of their boost, while the WD 3015’s have the highest consistent cruising speed, which is why I chose them.
I wonder why their isnt a shooting range for handheld weapons like in Div. 2 ?
What do you mean exactly? They have a Range statistic and there is an actual shooting range on Akila and other military bases.
Wow!
I had no idea the PBO175 was overrated! I always found it overpowered anyway!
There's also the question of range though.
What are your thoughts on Starvival and the ship fuel system in that mod?
I get that this video is about the Exterminator vs PBO-175, but doesn't the Vanguard Obliterator top both of them?
Check out this video for the answer: ruclips.net/video/ekTAhn6u8us/видео.html
If you boost away from enemies, use your thrusters to turn around and drift backwards, damage output matters very little as long as it's higher than their shield regen. Fight smart, not hard
Great video!! The best part was the last several seconds! 😂😂😂😂
I like close combat and boarding, but I don't like slow EM weapons, so I use Vanguard Hellfires to knock out engines in target mode once I deplete their shields. I've been trying to figure out the best weapons for shields though. Right now I'm using Vanguard Obliterators and Reza 10 PHz Pulse Laser Turrets. The laser turrets actually deplete shields pretty quickly, and since they do little hull damage I don't have to worry about them damaging the hull before I'm able to target their engines with my Hellfires. It's been working out well so far against high level enemies, but I don't know if it's the most optimal setup.
I've tested the Obliterator 250MeV Alpha Turret in place of the lasers, but they fire so slowly and switch targets so often that they barely do any sustained dps in my experience. The laser turrets on the other hand fire quickly, so they can dish out quite a bit before I'm able to lock on. I'm not concerned about the range since I like getting in close for locking on and eventually docking. In a difficult fight, docking will allow your shield to regen to full, so after I wipe out the crew I'm refreshed to continue the fight.
I'm keeping the Hellfires no matter what, and I'm leaning towards keeping the Laser Turrets for reasons I've stated, but does anyone have suggestions for something better then the Vanguard Obliterators? I'm considering perhaps trying a semi-firing weapon rather than auto. Going by the numbers, I guess the Exterminator 95MeV Helion Beam would be the best option, so I suppose I'll try them. I really only use the Obliterators to assist my laser turrets in knocking out shields though, so perhaps the Dragon 251 UV Laser should be considered, as it has higher sustained dps vs shields. I like having one of each weapon type though, so I'm not sure If i want to lose having a particle weapon, and I also don't know how much crit chance that rank 4 perk gives.
I would strongly recommend you watch my follow-up video to this one: ruclips.net/video/ekTAhn6u8us/видео.html
@@ShipTechnician Awesome, thanks!
I removed the 175s from my ships a while back because I wasn't happy with how they performed. Now I feel justified in that decision.
I honestly had a hard time swapping them out on some of my ships, because the ability to have 4 of them makes them nice and symmetrical, whereas weapons you can only have 3 of can be a bit trickier. So in some cases I may keep them, but that’s a me problem :)
Since this video, I have become curious if any other weapons had incorrect stats listed. I am beginning to think a lot of them do.
This is entirely anecdotal, but ... I've been playing with some of the never used, "under-statted" laser weapons, and they are absolutely shredding through enemies on extreme ng10. The fire rates of some of these laser turrets in particular seem WAY higher than the listed information suggests. I think it must be related to the unlisted "delay" stat? It feels like they fire faster than the Hellfire Autocannons do, which have the highest listed fire rate in the game. I wonder if we should collectively start digging through game files or doing more field testing?
What specific laser weapons? I’m happy to look into it further. For what it’s worth, as Stalviet found in a comment I pinned, there is a burst delay stat that appears to be the primary factor here. Whereas the burst delay of the Exterminators is 0.3, it is 0.5 for the PBO-175s. When digging into the data more, the PBO-175s appear to be the only burst weapon with a delay of 0.5. Makes it seem more like a mistake than anything else. But I do believe there is potentially more to discover here, particularly regarding Sustained DPS per Power Point allocated.
@@ShipTechnician I was using the Reza 300 and Reza 10 Pulse Turrets at the time of that comment. I have played a bit more since, and I am less convinced something is amiss now. I think the turrets were just individually firing out of sequence--instead of all at once--making it seem like an insane machine gun barrage. Very cool though, it feels like you're piloting something out of Star Wars with all those red lasers on screen.
However, there is another interaction that might be worth some consideration. What is the affect of the reload perks on a semi-automatic weapon? The turret trait gives +40%, and the laser/ballistic traits give +30%. Would this be a 70% fire rate increase on semi-auto non-particle turrets?
I put missiles in the third slot to use only one power unit, which I remove after firing.
Look I'll be honest, I run the PBOs because 4 looks more symetrical and therefore better (to me) on my ships and I can't stand the grey and red color of the Exterminators lol.
I actually feel the same :)
Well, I feel better... I think.
So - I'm working from a very old version of the Weapons sheet. No Sustained DPS column - just DPS. Guess I need to upgrade.
My typical loadout is the hardest hitting magazine loaded plasma I can afford (usually the Vanguard Obliterator Auto) and the best sustained DPS Non auto. I power the non-auto to full, and put what ever is left into the Vanguards. - This is because I hate how slow the VOA fires after you empty the mag - This way I keep getting to hit the enemy while I let the magazine reload. Is this the best route? No idea, but it feels better against multiple targets. Against a single target, the double magazine dump is pretty impressive.
Now I also you mods so on Extreme settings I add in TN's supplemental reactors (and occasionally the little power points or towers). Part of that is because I like my jump drive to kick in fast and I hate moving power around between units. A hotkey to switch from Combat Ready to Escape & Evade would be nice.
If I don't use supplementals, (Class A) I've been too lazy to figure out the actual are results because it's complicated.
1. You don't always hit.
2. Sometimes there's no point in firing because available targets are out of range.
3. You lose your lock while maneuvering
4. You might move to a new target when you magazines are empty and you don't want to fire until they're reloaded - you just prolong the pain (I think - might just be me).
Things I want to know:
1. Time to reload magazine without firing.
2. Time to reload with firing (does it ever?)
3. Time to reload increase for every 1,2,3, and 4 power points you are short of full power. (might be linear, might not)
3. Does firing before the magazine is reloaded restart the timer? (I want to say yes, but honestly, I'm always too busy to look - I'd have to record and look at the playback).
I think at this point you know more about ships in starfield than the actual devs
YOU GOT IT WRONG!!
I am clearly the most efficient and dangerous ship weapon.. the scattered debris of my enemies attests to this. Thanks for the vid bud it’s a good clarifying point.
Wow , really well done
Damn... my brain hurts after this. I may have to rethink my standard weapon load out. I normally load 4 PBO-175's, 6 Obliterators, and 4 PBO-300's. This load out has served me well, but it may be time to switch up.
And of course in the end(just choose the weapon you feel comfortable using)there all good.
barret at the end 😂
I just use 6 vanguard ob' and use turrets in the last two spots. 😎
interesting , Thank You
OMG...the PBO 175 Autos x 4 mops up any ship out there so fast I have to be extra carful if I want to board the ship. Stats are one thing. Actual performance in the field is another. The PBO's are sleek and look good on any ship. If you need to finish off a ship in a hurry, the Atlati 280C Missiles do the job in one hit after one or two bursts from the 175 Autos. If you want to board a ship, put the missiles on ice and once the shields are down with the 175 autos, use the Nullifier 1750 suppressors (x2) until you are cleared to board.
Did you account for max power? Sure, the Exterminator 95MeV Auto Helion Beam might beat the PBO-175 one-on-one, but you can equip four of the latter and only three of the former.
Yep! This accounts for max power
Lol😂😂😂
sadly ship combat is so easy in this game that I do not care, I feel like anything goes and I can kill an enemy just as easy with the worst weapons as I can with the best.
If anyone know any mod that makes shipcombat better please let me know
IDK of a mod, but on a more basic level you can tweak both enemy and player Ship Damage via settings>gameplay options. Adjust yours down and the enemies up.
My auto weapons aren't working
Not working? What does that mean? And to clarify, auto weapons are different from turrets. Turrets fire automatically (if they have power allocated to them). Auto weapon and non-auto weapons fire manually, the difference being that non-auto weapons must reload after every shot, while auto weapons have a magazine and only reload once the magazine is depleted.
@ShipTechnician auto turrets won't fire it must be a bug from all the mods ive got on
@@ShipTechnician I know all that
Didn’t mean any offense. You’d be surprised how many don’t know that.
And I can think of one time in many countless hours where my turrets didn’t fire, but that was due to the game not recognizing another ship was an enemy ship. Not sure what else could be causing that for you, but sounds like a bug
@ShipTechnician put it this way I have your ships from the mod and auto turrets ain't working
He wants to slide into ur DMs😮 Dont do it Man 😂
Hey! Seriously though will you PLEASE HELP US WITH LATE GAME ONE EM to rule them all??????
I always use a 3 rd weapon EM so A,B, and mainly C is a question I come across often and the choices all seem so different! I sometimes use a B class option over the C class options... Fully charged and sometimes barely charged...😅
If you have the EM skill leveled up to where there is a chance for it to instantly disable enemy engines it is best to prioritize fire rate so you have that many more opportunities for that effect to trigger.
there useing missles wrong use missles large volley amount max damage with 8 to 10 shot launchers with skills 1200 damage pervolley shot all day
There is certainly something to be said for slapping 12 power worth of Hunter Mag missiles on your ship and leaving 1 pip of power in them to sustain you through an entire fight. A Class ships could use the Infiltrator instead in a similar manner.
UI Stats Lying. FFS!
How hard is it Bethesda? stop using separate data fields for UI vs Game Engine. Just make the UI do a direct memory reference!
Lying guns aside, Sooo many ship stat glitches stem from this kind of disconnect.... crew, shields, etc.
Yes, shield bug, target lock time bug, etc, etc. The skills system is riddled with errors.
Lol Shutup Barret 😂
Beautiful voice man. Do you have a Instagram?