@@jonnyf9523 NATO ammo is plus P, it was created "hot" to cycle 9mm carbines and fully automatic rifles. It's why some European manufacturer's guns take awhile to break in with regular or weaker ammo, the springs are stouter to accommodate for more powerful NATO ammo.
I believe most NATO ammo is close to +P spec. I have shot some NATO loads that seemed even hotter than +P. Winchester is right in the middle in my experience. Glad to see you back on RUclips!
@@t-bfr45-70 there's a good Wikipedia article; SAAMI and Nato spec are hard to compare because they have different testing method for pressure. Here's a funny factoid: Sig won the army contract. Although I believe Winchester is the ammo contractor, Sig sells M1152 spec ammo and on their box they identify it as +P. Probably due to all this confusion.
@@mdubb4855 I have looked at a lot of articles on it. standard 9mm cip testing is kinda close to military but the transducer is slightly different location for 9mm to my understanding so yes the pressure value is different but still no where near is bad as if trying to figure cup vs psi or even saami vs cip. little beer math says it be pretty equivalent to +p being that cip standard pressure is 34,084 saami 35,000 NATO 36,500 but when consider a lot of +p on the market is basically just load right at standard max and labeled +p were NATO ammo will seem hotter then some +p because military's are more willing to push the limit because they tested the particular gun it's meant for. The m1152 is definitely getting to the upper end of the +p level most the old 124ball was pretty close to about 5% over standard.
@@t-bfr45-70 Ammo companies are big on fluff advertising and skimpy on useful details. For example, I wonder if Winchester white box NATO has sealed primers and cartridge crimp for weather protection; and the same for their brown box Service and Active Duty "brands". Hitting 432 ft-lbs ain't gonna happen with my 3.5-4" barrels but having weatherproof ammo is very important.
If you want to know how much recoil a given load has, chronograph it. Multiply the muzzle velocity by the bullet weight and divide by 1000. That will give you the power factor, which is a measure of the bullet's momentum, and thus its recoil. The powder burning in the barrel does not just push the bullet forward, but also pushes the gun back, and that's where the recoil comes from. This works regardless of pressure. Standard 9mm, 9mm +P, and 9mm +P+ are all maximum (peak) pressure limits, but it's the _average_ pressure over the course of the bullet's journey down the barrel that determines the muzzle velocity, not the peak pressure, so it is possible to have standard pressure loads that outperform even +P+ loads. The 9mm +P+ 124-gr Federal Hydra-Shok chrono'd at around 1200 (rated 1220) from my G17 (tested some 20 years ago). Stepping down a pressure category but up in velocity, the 124 +P Golden Saber as in the video chronographed at ~1220 (rated 1180) from my G17 . My standard handloaded practice ammo (124 grain, about 1250 fps) was at the max load for _standard_ pressure 9mm in the manual. Of these, the hardest recoiling is the standard pressure practice ammo, and the least recoiling is the +P+, which kind of goes against what you'd think at first glance. The trick in getting higher velocities with less pressure is to use a powder whose burn characteristics are such that the pressure in the barrel is maintained at near the peak for the whole time the bullet is in the barrel. A fast burning powder might rise to a high pressure peak very quickly, but peter out just as quickly. You can't put more powder in to get it to go faster because it's already hitting the pressure peak. A slow burning powder might not be able to get to near the pressure limit because it would require more of it than will fit inside the powder bottle (the area left in the shell casing when the bullet is seated). This is why the 10mm outperforms the .40S&W even at the same pressure (though the 10mm also has a slightly higher limit)... it can use a greater charge of slower burning powder than the .40 can.
Hi Nolan. As you may have figured out already from previous comments, neither ammunition you shot is "standard pressure". The +P stuff is self-explanatory. SAAMI specs identify +P as meaning up to 10% higher than standard pressure. When you see ammo rated as +P+, that means that it is not loaded to any universally agreed upon standard, and can mean anything the manufacturer wishes it to mean. NATO spec 9mm ammo is not standard pressure. The Winchester load you are shooting is loaded to up to 38,500 psi, whereas true SAAMI standard 9mm Luger ammo typically used for plinking is loaded in the 35,000 psi range. Commercial +P ammo is all loaded somewhere between these two pressure levels. NATO spec 9mm ammo is loaded hotter so that it will reliably cycle a submachine gun under Arctic conditions where cold temperatures can reduce the effective pressure and velocity of ammunition. Remember the original scenarios envisioned in a NATO conflict (war with the Soviet Union) and you will see why this was important. It also functions better in guns that have not been properly maintained or are dirty. 9mm NATO ammo is also made with a tougher primer than commercial ammunition, and is lacquer sealed at both the primer end and the case mouth. Routine use in pistols does accelerate wear, but with a modern top quality pistol such as a Beretta, SIG, Glock, HK, S&W, or your CZ, this is probably not a realistic worry given typical round counts in privately owned handguns. By contrast, competitive shooters who run through thousands of rounds a year generally do not shoot NATO spec ammo in practice. I use the same Winchester Q4318 load as you have there specifically when I want to simulate the recoil of modern self-defense 9mm ammo, or when I am having problems making a gun cycle and want to diagnose a problem. When I chronograph it from a 4-inch gun like a Glock 19, I get an average velocity of 1,185 fps. By comparison, when I clock my carry load, the Federal 124 grain +P HST load, I get 1,170. Pretty close. If I shoot the NATO load or the +P 124 grain loads in a 9mm micro compact like a Shield, I can definitely tell the difference between those loads and a standard pressure load in recoil. The combination of the standard pressure 124 grain load and a 3-inch barrel produces an average velocity of 1,085 fps in my gun. Oddly enough, at least with my preferred HST loads, in a short barreled gun like the Shield, I'm only getting about 30 fps more by using the +P version, not worth mentioning, and not worth putting up with the additional pressure of +P. The reason you didn't feel much difference is that you compared two different types of ammo that are loaded to similar pressure levels. I hope some of this information is helpful. Cheers!
@@PPISAFETY the farthest back I can definitively remember 9mm+p is 1982 when Corbon was founded. Supervel had what was in essence 9 millimeter plus P ammo in the 1970s but I don't know if it was marked as such or recognized by SAAMI as such. Illinois State Police was using 9 mm + p + ammo prior to the 1986 Miami-Dade shooting.
@@Valorius You're right of course. I thought the question was when SAAMI recognized +P as a standard for 9mm. I actually remember using the supposedly police only Federal 9BP-LE load marked +P+, as well as a Remington 115 grain +P+ marked load before I ever saw any commercial loads actually marked +P. Speaking of Corbon, they have certainly come a long way. In 1999 I was invited to visit their facility in Sturgis. At the time it was in a small Butler building in an industrial park. There was a lobby with walls full of mounted big game heads taken by Peter Pi, and a sign over the entrance to a room used for production that said "Speed Kills". In the room there were two table-top automatic loaders dedicated exclusively to the production of their 9mm +P+ load, which sold like hotcakes because it worked, and the major manufacturers wouldn't sell such a load to civilians. Around the walls of the room there were a number of Dillion 550 presses that were used to make their hunting ammunition. There was a large square table in the center of the room where some older guys sat. They inspected each round and put it in the box by hand and then put on the adhesive sticker to show what load it was. They had a small ballistic tunnel to one side of the lobby that contained a little amateur level chronograph. I was really surprised that they made such good ammunition with such basic facilities. It's been good to see them progress and do well.
@@PPISAFETY I do want to ultimately nail down precisely when SAAMI formalized 9mm+P, it is shockingly not widely available info, and SAAMI has no contact page, but I do also find it fascinating that companies could be or were selling a +P+ when there wasn't even a formalized +P specification. I remember seeing Corbon +P in the late 80s, and I remember that Fed 9BPLE was used by the ISP even before the Miami Dade shooting. I am really curious what the first major ammo company offering was in 9mm+P, and when.
Nolan, as you have probably already seen in the comments, 9mm NATO is loaded somewhat hotter than American "standard pressure" 9mm "plinking ammo". I go out of my way to buy that 124 grain NATO Winchester load by the case for defensive practice sessions because it mimics my 124 grain carry ammo almost perfectly in terms of recoil. I also like that being mil-spec ammo, it is weather sealed and not particularly sensitive to how it is stored in my supply shed. But it definitely feels different than the wimpy stuff some of my friends shoot, or at least that is what I say when I want to rag on them. That's a nice P-01 you have there. I just took an SP-01 in trade this month, and am loving it, at least for the range. The pistol almost seems to shoot itself, and loves that Winchester 124 grain NATO loading!
I prefer to carry +P. But I always upgrade my recoil spring to something a bit heavier to reduce some of the recoil and slow down the slide velocity. Which helps with longevity. The thing that many miss, is if your gun is set up for standard pressure ammo. And you shoot a lot of +P then you're pushing the gun a bit harder with a spring designed more for standard pressures and slide/bolt thrust. And that leads to accelerated wear.
@@Glockhead1 Yes in fact it does. This has long since been proven. But thanks for telling how little experience you do have. Oh and I have several Glocks, ranging from Gen 3 to Gen 5.
@@nodescriptionavailable3842 You think it’s going to get faster while stripping a round under spring tension from the mag running it up the feed ramp and into the chamber??
@@MatteoSixSeventyFour well I don't know, that's why I asked, but it's counterintuitive to think a stiffer spring would decompress slower than a lighter one doing the same job. I'm not an expert like you. I apologize lol
+P for a heavier bullet will in most cases improve hollow point expansion compared to the non +P of the same bullet load and weight. That is why I choose to carry +P in 9mm and 45acp
harlistapr NATO maximum average pressure spec is listed at 36,000 psi with a possible %5 overpressure (+1800psi) rating without being considered out of or above spec. Although I have seen 9mm NATO at 38,000 psi which just a smidge below the max average SAAMI pressure spec for 9mm +P
My choices in 9MM carry and home defense ammo for my two primary carry/home defense guns are: G26 - Carry 1. Federal Personal Defense HST Micro 150 Grain, Part #: P9HST5S 2. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection, 9MM Luger +P 124 grain, Item #23611 G19 - Home defense 1. Federal Personal Defense HST 147 Grain, Part #: P9HST2S 2. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection, 9MM Luger +P 124 grain, Item #23617 My choices in 9MM practice ammo are: G26 - Carry 1. Federal Syntech Action Pistol 150 grain, Part #: AE9SJAP1 (Low volume drills) 2. Hornady Critical Defense Lite, 100 gr. FTX, Item #90240 (Low volume drills) 3. My hand-loads using: Hornady 125 HAP, Power Pistol Powder w/C.O.L. of 1.060" and loaded to 1,000 fps (high volume) G19 - Home defense 1. Federal Syntech Action Pistol 150 grain, Part #: AE9SJAP1 (Low volume drills) 2. Hornady Critical Defense 115 gr. FTX, Item #90250 (Low volume drills) 3. My hand-loads using: Hornady 125 HAP, Power Pistol Powder w/C.O.L. of 1.060" and loaded to 1,000 fps (high volume) Choices for other guns and calibers are similar in factory carry and home defense ammo such as for G27 .40 cal S&W, SA 1911 .45 ACP and Colt DE 10MM. Hand-loads vary according to type shooing from bullseye to bowling pins and match target to 3 gun and ammo from 230 grain FMJ to 125 grain lead and much in between. For low volume drills I try to duplicate my carry loads. I expend actual carry ammo about every six months and replace with fresh new ammo. For high volume practice or shooting I try to use lower powered low flash ammo that will not fatigue me as fast and of course save money. For competition I use whatever works best for my guns & my eyes. I shoot less as I get older so I reload less as well and, tend to shoot more factory ammo in low volume specific drills to maintain skills less often.
Good video. This guy has a great attitude when it comes to shooting firearms and experimenting, and he makes his experiments available to us on RUclips to enjoy. That's awesome. Have an awesome day and stay SAFE.
I stumbled upon this video looking for feedback on NATO spec 9mm ammo after recently acquiring a POLISH MAG-98 pistol and wondering if the WW Black Labeled 134gr 9MM NATO may not be the best thing for it as it functions just barely with 115gr standard US 9mm ammo. Flip side felt recoil dose not always indicate +P ammo. I know for a fact by experience that Hornady 135gr +P Critical Duty has less felt recoil than Remington UMC 9mm 115gr JHP.. in my various polymer framed Glocks. Things like bullet crimp and powder burn rates come into play here.
I've always been under the impression that 9mm NATO (9mm Parabellum) is a hotter round (and not the standard for 9mm) where as 9mm Luger is the standard. I was hoping to get a better understanding of what the difference was between 9mm Parabellum and 9mm Luger +P. But I didn't get a real good explanation from this video.
Here is my 9mm experiences with a Sig P-228 3.9" barrel and a chronograph: Winchester "white box" USA 115gr fmj (and other generic 115gr fmjs like UMC, PMC etc) 1100-1140 fps. 124gr "NATO" (Winchester, IMI...) 1110-1160 fps. 124gr +p JHPs (Golden Saber, Gold Dots...) 1160-1200+ fps. Standard 115 < NATO 124 < +p 124 or hot...hotter...hottest.
I believe I could see the gun rise more with the +p. I think if you would of staggered the rounds. One +p one reg, it would have been easier for us to see. Still great job.
Winchester NATO 124gr is loaded to a +p pressure with a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps out of a 5" barrel. I have a couple different+p 124gr ammos that only have a muzzle velocity of 1150 to 1175. I don't get all caught up in the +p +p+ game because I don't know how ammo company's determine one load from another some of them just stick a velocity on the side of the box or website and how they got that number is questionable because I've had +p ammo that has a higher velocity than +p+ ammo. Not all +p and +p+ ammo is created equal you got to test them till you find what you and your firearm likes. But with the Winchester NATO you can't go wrong the best target and plinking and woods carry ammo money can buy I would even use it for self defense in a pinch just have to be mindful of over penetrateion.
I'm averaging 1160fps with NATO out of my 92FS Elite. And I'm averaging 1315fps with Underwood's +P+ 125 gr Gold Dot load. Now that's smoking and those bullets stay together. The 124 gr +P HST loads are a tad faster than NATO too. That's my two bits worth.
Winchester NATO has the same velocity as most + P rounds the +P+ rounds is where you are going to see a little more felt recoil and velocity and excessive wear on your pistol. You can shoot+P and +P+ out of any modern gun I have shot +P+ out of a hipoint I wouldn't make it a steady diet out of any of my pistols rated or not. with ammo prices now a days who can afford to feed a lot of +P and +P+ ammo to your firearm anyway.
I haven't used +P, but I have some because I want better performance out of the 9mm cartridge. In particular, I have a box of 50 9mm +P Federal HSTs. The way I see it, good hollow points loaded to +P specs are for self defense and standard pressure ammo is for practice.
TheDigitalDungeon You should look into underwood ammos offerings. They have a +p+ 124g speer gold dot. And the same thing in 115g that has over 500 ft lbs of energy.
Although I like and carry underwood ammo in some of my firearms, I stay away from their +p+ loading which tend to push the bullet( often speer gold dots) too fast, causing expansion way too fast, sacrificing penetration. Not too mention possible bullet deformation. My opinion
@@eyenowrite885 I respect your opinion. You should check this video out though ruclips.net/video/YcrsOyAa0gY/видео.html Not a lot of penetration, but it was over 12"
@@DEATH_TO_TYRANTS Why? The Ranger T series is essentially the legendary Black Talon bullet minus the black Lubalox coating. It's a superior round and It's my carry round as well.
You should have used a chronograph to measure the speed/velocity of NATO ammo versus the +P ammo. You just went by the way that the recoil felt against your hand. Please respond.
@@t-bfr45-70 "Standard" 9mm ix 35,000 PSI (SAAMI). +P is max 38,500 PSI (SAAMI), which is the same as 9mm "Standard" (CIP). That's 10% above the SAAMI "Standard" load. 9mm NATO is up to 42,000, which is also the approximate limit for 9mm +P+ (which is unofficial and not defined by SAAMI). That's 20% above the SAAMI standard.
@@tid418 where are you getting nato 9mm is 42,000 psi. Closest thing to that be like the Russian ap rounds which are not within nato spec. cip and NATO are about same pressure when using same test method. 9mm SAAMI Standard, Piezo measurement from the center of the case body: 35,000 psi 9mm SAAMI +P, Piezo measurement from the center of the case body: 38,500 psi 9mm CIP Piezo measurement from case mouth, 34,084 psi 9x19 NATO, Piezo measurement from case mouth, 34,084 psi. Depending on powder you can have higher pressure at the center or neck. Lot can be said on how it's tested and how close to true max a company loads. Always are outlier special bullets like the Russian ap and some machine gun ammo but when comes to ammo that comes of a store shelf that says NATO it's not worth even think of it as anything but regular ammo. Because NATO is not a real rating on ammo.
All I can add to the conversation is that the 124gr FMJ NATO ammo works really well in my UZI but is a little hard to handle in my SIG P938 pocket pistol.
Winchester manufacture 9mm NATO ammunition part number q4318. This ammo is commercial grade ammunition that is loaded to M882 military specs with 10% higher pressure than standard 124 grain FMJ ammunition, thus it is +P pressure level (but not specifically marked +P).
Sig m17 nato 124gr +p, ball or hollow is really nice ammo , My ported and comped pistols I notice more benefits from the +p ammo with muzzle rise and overall recoil control. If you mix this with normal ammo you will notice when you shoot one of these defiantly has a punch to it
@@Platano_macho , the point is that in a small pistol with a 3.4" barrel, super-hot rounds are not likely to save you. In fact, shot placement is what matters, and the recoil will get in the way of that. And it'll make you deafer. People have weird, incorrect ideas about self-defense, and things that have more gunpowder and make a bigger bang are fodder for the macho fantasy.
Glad to have you back man. Good vid. I will be performing my own little test to see what I come up with both of 9's and seeing how they perform using the OTS ammo vs. +p ammo. Thanks for showing this.
I carry in my cz p-07 NATO 9mm it worked for my brother in Afghanistan and kept him alive when his m4 did not go bang ,not only that I did a lot of fmj test and the NATO believe it or not when it makes contact with a living object it acts different then just making a straight threw hole hollow point is a good rd for house protection but in the field target's tend to hide behind cover so fmj will pen that and the perp call me full of it but I seen it in person and that's why I carry outside NATO 9mm but in my Taurus g2c I got crit defence
ALL MILITARY 9MM PISTOLS IN EUROPE HAVE 20-LBS GUIDE ROD SPRINGS INSTALLED IN THEM TO RELIABLY CYCLE THE HOT NATO AMMO USED. MOST AMERICAN GUNS HAVE 17-LBS GUIDE ROD SPRINGS IN THEM.
Good point. The tiny Shield 1.0 and 2.0 9mm uses the same stiff recoil spring as their 40 version so it handles NATO surprisingly well. They lightened the spring for the Plus though. Also, I just ordered a stiffer PX4 recoil spring off their website (for extended M1152 training and when it arrived it was marked".40" lol
Thanks Nolan. I am glad you're back. Appreciate your candid approach. I have some doubts that there is always a consistent gain in velocity & energy from +p variants. If the data is accurate from a few of our guntuber results, there are times where there is little or no change when chronographed. However, +p+ ammo does seem to be consistently greater. Thanks again. Keep at it. Your a big asset to the shooting community.
That's because the +P rating is about pressure, not velocity. And you can achieve higher pressure without gaining additional or significant increases in velocity. To gain a +P rating your pressures need to be 4% over 35,000 psi. With some powders you can get what is thought of as +P velcities without exceeding standard pressure specs.
For my RUGER PC chassis carbine (16" barrel) I'll get some Federal +P ammo in bulk (1,000). With that barrel length I'll be getting at least the energy I would get from a .357 round in a 5" pistol barrel. My short carry 9 mm will still use Hornady Critical Duty.
Running 9mm, or smaller caliber, I am always +p with heaviest grains. Simple answer. A 147 or 152gr +p 9mm is in ALL of my magazines. Everything else is for target. A flat tip 147+p has a bit more ouch factor. Quite a bit. Listen to your steel. He'll tell ya. It's the only way to gain advantage with smaller calibers. And yes I would like to just switch all of the hand toys out for 10mm. Easy fix there. Great vid tho thnx for sharing.
9mm NATO is a military round,and manufacturers load it to higher pressures. It isn't a standard 9mm x 19 round.(They delivers greater velocity and energy.) But the increased pressure means it’s almost like a +P round and it is not identical to 9mm Luger. Many 9mm Luger handguns can’t handle the higher internal pressure.Best to check your weapons stats before firing the higher pressure rounds.Still any standard 9mm x 19 ammo- luger,parabellum, or most sold in the US will load into a 9 mm pistol unless the casing is different.
I've always used standard. The only time I don't is 147g 9mm . I will use +p for 147 only. I personally only shoot Hornady 135g Practice ammo or Critical Duty 135g. I think there is only 15 -25 FPS diffrence which is a lot but dead is dead. Whether your using plus p or standard with Critical Duty aiming center mass it's gonna get the job done . No questions
There can be a range in fps and pressure in them but in general the plus P and Nato should be in the same ballpark I would think? The standard 115gr luger seems to be the typical range ammo that any 9mm will shoot but you don’t want to run Nato in a gun not designed for it as far as I understand it. But many pistols seem to be rated +P for carry these days but I never even knew about Nato 9mm until I bought an FN designed for it.
The best source is the online version of the owners manual at the mfg website. Any pistol that is NATO rated will work. Many good European brands like Glock, Beretta, H&K, HS Produkt aka XD, Steyr, Sig (double check the P365 manual, it's made for USA consumer market). Any USA company's law enforcement approved models (M&P, probably including the Shields since they use the same brand name, but check manual). Ruger manuals tend to say +P wears the pistol out faster and is silent on NATO spec and M1152 is hotter so contact them. Turkish and Brazilian pistols, check the manual. I buy name brands for their impossible to confirm extra reserves. H&K might be tops.
@@mdubb4855 actually it's only the new Ruger concealed carry guns the Ruger American is built to eat it all day the old Ruger p series basically said haven't found anything in a 9x19 case that hurts it sr series were not far behind p series. Ruger been trying to lighten up their guns for the to make appeal for general public and running lighter recoil spring they will still eat a ocean of +p form my experience but they definitely are not they tanks they used to be my only real recommendation if plan shoot a lot of +p out of the new Ruger guns is change to a heavier recoil spring it will reduce the wear. Edit here Had actually open my security 9 and max9 manual it also say No 9mm ammunition manufactured in accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards is known to be beyond the design limits or known not to function in this pistol. The lc9 does leave NATO out. The p365 manual Always use ammunition that complies with the industry performance standards established by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI) or ammunition manufactured to military specifications.
@@mdubb4855 guess RUclips didn't like my long comment. The p365 say any saami ammo and any military ammo is within its capabilities the max9 and security 9 both say No 9mm ammunition manufactured in accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards is known to be beyond the design limits or known not to function in this pistol. Lc9 is only one that doesn't say anything about NATO. The Rugers will eat a ocean of +p/NATO only recommendation I have is change to heavier recoil spring to reduce wear.
9mm NATO is not a standard pressure round. The SAAMI pressure for 9mm Luger ammo is around 35,000 PSI, and C.I.P (think European SAAMI) rates 9mm Luger ammo at 34,080 PSI. ... That means that when compared to standard 9mm ammo, the 9mm NATO ammo is running a higher pressure, analogous to a 9mm +P load, which SAAMI rates around 36,000 PSI.
Anyone who is an advocate for modern 9mm being a great caliber, as effective as .40 or .45, but with less recoil, MUST shoot NATO spec for practice and carry +P to even pretend to be able fulfill those claims of better shot placement in less time of a terminally effective cartridge. Standard pressure 9mm has the longest proven history of failing to stop bad guys.
Typical regurgitated nonsense without any evidence to back it up. Of course 9mm has the longest proven history of failing to stop bad guys, as it’s older than .40 S&W or .45ACP. The .40 and .45’s proven history of failing to stop bad guys is much shorter.
9mm standard throws ~320-360 ft-lbs from a 6" barrel, on average. +P can go from ~360-526 ft-lbs. That's a considerable increase. As long as it's not a steady diet, +P ammo is fine for most firearms rated for it. I'll be sending one of my 9mm handguns off to the 460Rowland company so they can modify the barrel and spring to fire their proprietary 9mm round, going up to 650 ft-lbs. :D
Get a chronograph. You can get them inexpensive for around $80. NATO goes through my Beretta M9 Commercial at about 1180 ft per second, more or less. Federal Tactical 124gr +p+ hydrashoks go through my Beretta at about 1130, more or less.
Definitely love the sights. The plus p ammo had more noticeable muzzle flare. And hey it's great to see you again. It seems like a long time since you have posted.
Just my opinion, but I think you'd need to use ballistic gel and several mags of each to see a real distinction. I suspect in the real world, there'd be little effective difference. So +P is probably just money wasted in this case. I could imagine the difference being more important with 380 ACP, especially if +P makes a JHP blossom where standard power won't. Good stuff!
Hey Nolan! Glad to see you're ok. I use standard pressure. From what I've seen, it actually performs best. I think +p is mostly hype with a modicum truth like anything else. But, until I find out differently, my carry load is Underwood XD 90 +p. The problem is, we need live targets who will live long enough to tell us which hurts more? haha. Btw, just picked up my first CZ a few days ago.
You said you use standard pressure, believe it works best and that +p is mainly all hype...then you admit to carrying +p for everyday carry...huh?...that being said and thrown out with the daily garbage that usually comes out of my mouth, I like the Underwood ammo I have tried so far. The groups I shoot are comparable to what I practice with so that is what I want. It is very expensive though and I always cringe after I shoot it.
I would expect to see chronograph velocities to be really be sure what one was shooting. Relative to the priming, I do not know if the nato standard specifies harder primers. Submachineguns depending on the particular model, particularly the open bolt guns are often fired with harder primer ammo. In a 9mm I never weaken the hammer/striker spring.
I don’t think nato rounds are standard pressure, I believe they start at 36.500 psi and go up they are pretty much a +p round , they are some nato rounds that have over 39k psi that’s over the max for +p witch is 38.500 psi
Any difference would likely be measured in a couple feet per second. it's not like comparing a subsonic load to a +p if there is any tangible difference the only way to tell would be a chrono.
Good video. I would have like to have seen if the + p does more damage or gets deeper penetration. Maybe your next film you can show us that. Appreciate it brother. Have a blessed day.
9mm NATO is actually not standard 9mm, 9mm NATO and 9mm luger two different cartridges one is hotter with a 124 gr projectile, and the other is standard, plus P would be common for defense, I'm thinking on getting some 9mm NATO 124gr for winter conceal carry ammo, my Glock 43x does say I can use NATO rounds, and +p and standard 9 luger
@@Kawmbat_Veteran ever hear of I tried that already and didn't get a satisfactory response? Ever hear of I wanted the input, dialogue, interaction with an actual person? Ever hear of I already recieved the information I was looking for from decent non - douche bag people? Ever hear about take your attitude and shove it? Ever hear of my question is two months old?
You can tell instantly the noticeable difference in recoil and also the gas pressure leaving the barrel. +p round produced visible gas discharge attempts tip of the barrel with a subtle flash. You should have checked the difference in penetration power of both rounds, and you should keep the rounds with in the same grain to minimize the difference in performance to only its powder load and not other factors.
Hello Nolan, the 9mm Nato ammo is a military standard ! 9mm Nato ammo is guaranteed supersonic ammo which excels the speed of sound. Thus, the 124 Grain bullet is faster than its sound. You can use Nato ammo with military pistols, only. Standard pistols might go bust with Nato ammo ! Warning: 9mm Nato ammo will destroy your hearing without a good ear protection. Standard 9mm ammo might be subsonic at high temperatures and long distances.. Best Wishes Dipl.-Ing. Ralf Steffler Netcool Certified Consultant Out~of~The Box Solutions Offenbach am Main
Nolan Outdoors Its good, alot of people dont even know what or why NATO is hot. Hell you can go to the shelves and buy 5 different standard ammo and run them through chrono and actually see and feel differences sometimes a
RAZORJB you run any LAX 124? It’s supposedly fairly warm for target ammo. I’d run nato Winchester but it’s so damn dirty. I try and get AE or Blazer 124 when it’s on sale.
Great video, shots sounds like the same. With the regular nato, the slide recoil looks not tipping the nose of the pistol too much as blowback is smoother. But with greater energy +P rounds, the nose of the slide seems to tip up a little higher as the blowback pushes the slide back with more energy and the recoil seems a little faster on the same spring rate.
what i think, is that standard vs +p velocities is too minimal to justify the added cost of plus p. ive seen alot of vids where both were chronoed and the difference was more often than not 150 fps or less. also i know as well as anyone that chronograph readings can be inaccurate, but one vid i saw was where a guy was running brown bear steel cased loads and was getting readings in the high 1200's and that stuff isnt even marked +p. hard to know exactly what you're getting sometimes
A chronograph would have been nice because that didn't prove anything. I don't believe NATO spec and +P are the same. That said, I run both and do just fine with them. I have noticed my +P rated pistol has a stiffer recoil spring and I have to swap out a lighter spring to get (some brands) standard pressure plinking ammo to function reliably. Not like an occasional FTE or FTC is a bad thing when practicing. It trains you to clear malfunctions while practicing.
You say standard pressure vs +P, but then pull put NATO rounds. NATO is actually hotter than +P at 36,500 vs 36,000. 9mm Luger is (depending on the standard used) is 34,080 - 35,000 psi.
you picked a very flat smooth shooting gun to do a comparison of recoil lol nice vid always good to get the CZ to the range any excuse is a good excuse
Winchester is NOW light loading its NATO 124 gr ammo vs 2018 lots made. New Production Winchester 124 gr NATO is NOT WHAT IT USED TO BE! ( I carry 124 gr FMJ)
If you're going to do a comparison video, it needs to be something more than "I could feed a difference but it wasn't that drastic". This would be much more informative if you had chonographed the loads.
Maybe put ten rounds in the magazine. Five +p and then five rounds of Nato on top. Shoot all ten in one string without the delay of changing magazines.
NATO is not standard pressure ammo, its a hotter load with a harder primer meant to cycle through pistol caliber carbines...like the mp-5
He states NATO is plus P initially, then calls it regular when compared to the other ammo....I'm lost.
Hypercube Jones the cross in a circle designates that it is nato ammo nothing else.
@@jonnyf9523 NATO ammo is plus P, it was created "hot" to cycle 9mm carbines and fully automatic rifles. It's why some European manufacturer's guns take awhile to break in with regular or weaker ammo, the springs are stouter to accommodate for more powerful NATO ammo.
Hypercube is right.
+ in a circle is Nato
👍
@George Rome loaded to higher pressures, for more velocity
I believe most NATO ammo is close to +P spec. I have shot some NATO loads that seemed even hotter than +P. Winchester is right in the middle in my experience. Glad to see you back on RUclips!
+p is up to 10% above max standard 9mm pressure nato is about 5% about standard 9mm pressure meaning all nato ammo is +p but not all +p is nato.
@@t-bfr45-70 there's a good Wikipedia article; SAAMI and Nato spec are hard to compare because they have different testing method for pressure. Here's a funny factoid: Sig won the army contract. Although I believe Winchester is the ammo contractor, Sig sells M1152 spec ammo and on their box they identify it as +P. Probably due to all this confusion.
@@mdubb4855 I have looked at a lot of articles on it. standard 9mm cip testing is kinda close to military but the transducer is slightly different location for 9mm to my understanding so yes the pressure value is different but still no where near is bad as if trying to figure cup vs psi or even saami vs cip. little beer math says it be pretty equivalent to +p being that cip standard pressure is 34,084 saami 35,000 NATO 36,500 but when consider a lot of +p on the market is basically just load right at standard max and labeled +p were NATO ammo will seem hotter then some +p because military's are more willing to push the limit because they tested the particular gun it's meant for. The m1152 is definitely getting to the upper end of the +p level most the old 124ball was pretty close to about 5% over standard.
@@t-bfr45-70 Ammo companies are big on fluff advertising and skimpy on useful details. For example, I wonder if Winchester white box NATO has sealed primers and cartridge crimp for weather protection; and the same for their brown box Service and Active Duty "brands". Hitting 432 ft-lbs ain't gonna happen with my 3.5-4" barrels but having weatherproof ammo is very important.
If you want to know how much recoil a given load has, chronograph it. Multiply the muzzle velocity by the bullet weight and divide by 1000. That will give you the power factor, which is a measure of the bullet's momentum, and thus its recoil. The powder burning in the barrel does not just push the bullet forward, but also pushes the gun back, and that's where the recoil comes from. This works regardless of pressure.
Standard 9mm, 9mm +P, and 9mm +P+ are all maximum (peak) pressure limits, but it's the _average_ pressure over the course of the bullet's journey down the barrel that determines the muzzle velocity, not the peak pressure, so it is possible to have standard pressure loads that outperform even +P+ loads.
The 9mm +P+ 124-gr Federal Hydra-Shok chrono'd at around 1200 (rated 1220) from my G17 (tested some 20 years ago). Stepping down a pressure category but up in velocity, the 124 +P Golden Saber as in the video chronographed at ~1220 (rated 1180) from my G17 . My standard handloaded practice ammo (124 grain, about 1250 fps) was at the max load for _standard_ pressure 9mm in the manual.
Of these, the hardest recoiling is the standard pressure practice ammo, and the least recoiling is the +P+, which kind of goes against what you'd think at first glance.
The trick in getting higher velocities with less pressure is to use a powder whose burn characteristics are such that the pressure in the barrel is maintained at near the peak for the whole time the bullet is in the barrel. A fast burning powder might rise to a high pressure peak very quickly, but peter out just as quickly. You can't put more powder in to get it to go faster because it's already hitting the pressure peak.
A slow burning powder might not be able to get to near the pressure limit because it would require more of it than will fit inside the powder bottle (the area left in the shell casing when the bullet is seated). This is why the 10mm outperforms the .40S&W even at the same pressure (though the 10mm also has a slightly higher limit)... it can use a greater charge of slower burning powder than the .40 can.
Hi Nolan. As you may have figured out already from previous comments, neither ammunition you shot is "standard pressure". The +P stuff is self-explanatory. SAAMI specs identify +P as meaning up to 10% higher than standard pressure. When you see ammo rated as +P+, that means that it is not loaded to any universally agreed upon standard, and can mean anything the manufacturer wishes it to mean. NATO spec 9mm ammo is not standard pressure. The Winchester load you are shooting is loaded to up to 38,500 psi, whereas true SAAMI standard 9mm Luger ammo typically used for plinking is loaded in the 35,000 psi range. Commercial +P ammo is all loaded somewhere between these two pressure levels.
NATO spec 9mm ammo is loaded hotter so that it will reliably cycle a submachine gun under Arctic conditions where cold temperatures can reduce the effective pressure and velocity of ammunition. Remember the original scenarios envisioned in a NATO conflict (war with the Soviet Union) and you will see why this was important. It also functions better in guns that have not been properly maintained or are dirty. 9mm NATO ammo is also made with a tougher primer than commercial ammunition, and is lacquer sealed at both the primer end and the case mouth. Routine use in pistols does accelerate wear, but with a modern top quality pistol such as a Beretta, SIG, Glock, HK, S&W, or your CZ, this is probably not a realistic worry given typical round counts in privately owned handguns. By contrast, competitive shooters who run through thousands of rounds a year generally do not shoot NATO spec ammo in practice.
I use the same Winchester Q4318 load as you have there specifically when I want to simulate the recoil of modern self-defense 9mm ammo, or when I am having problems making a gun cycle and want to diagnose a problem. When I chronograph it from a 4-inch gun like a Glock 19, I get an average velocity of 1,185 fps. By comparison, when I clock my carry load, the Federal 124 grain +P HST load, I get 1,170. Pretty close. If I shoot the NATO load or the +P 124 grain loads in a 9mm micro compact like a Shield, I can definitely tell the difference between those loads and a standard pressure load in recoil. The combination of the standard pressure 124 grain load and a 3-inch barrel produces an average velocity of 1,085 fps in my gun. Oddly enough, at least with my preferred HST loads, in a short barreled gun like the Shield, I'm only getting about 30 fps more by using the +P version, not worth mentioning, and not worth putting up with the additional pressure of +P.
The reason you didn't feel much difference is that you compared two different types of ammo that are loaded to similar pressure levels. I hope some of this information is helpful. Cheers!
What year did Saami introduce its 9 mm plus P specification?
@@Valorius Don't know exactly. But I don't remember seeing 9mm ammo marked as +P much before the mid-80's.
@@PPISAFETY the farthest back I can definitively remember 9mm+p is 1982 when Corbon was founded. Supervel had what was in essence 9 millimeter plus P ammo in the 1970s but I don't know if it was marked as such or recognized by SAAMI as such.
Illinois State Police was using 9 mm + p + ammo prior to the 1986 Miami-Dade shooting.
@@Valorius You're right of course. I thought the question was when SAAMI recognized +P as a standard for 9mm. I actually remember using the supposedly police only Federal 9BP-LE load marked +P+, as well as a Remington 115 grain +P+ marked load before I ever saw any commercial loads actually marked +P.
Speaking of Corbon, they have certainly come a long way. In 1999 I was invited to visit their facility in Sturgis. At the time it was in a small Butler building in an industrial park. There was a lobby with walls full of mounted big game heads taken by Peter Pi, and a sign over the entrance to a room used for production that said "Speed Kills". In the room there were two table-top automatic loaders dedicated exclusively to the production of their 9mm +P+ load, which sold like hotcakes because it worked, and the major manufacturers wouldn't sell such a load to civilians.
Around the walls of the room there were a number of Dillion 550 presses that were used to make their hunting ammunition. There was a large square table in the center of the room where some older guys sat. They inspected each round and put it in the box by hand and then put on the adhesive sticker to show what load it was. They had a small ballistic tunnel to one side of the lobby that contained a little amateur level chronograph. I was really surprised that they made such good ammunition with such basic facilities. It's been good to see them progress and do well.
@@PPISAFETY I do want to ultimately nail down precisely when SAAMI formalized 9mm+P, it is shockingly not widely available info, and SAAMI has no contact page, but I do also find it fascinating that companies could be or were selling a +P+ when there wasn't even a formalized +P specification.
I remember seeing Corbon +P in the late 80s, and I remember that Fed 9BPLE was used by the ISP even before the Miami Dade shooting.
I am really curious what the first major ammo company offering was in 9mm+P, and when.
Nolan, as you have probably already seen in the comments, 9mm NATO is loaded somewhat hotter than American "standard pressure" 9mm "plinking ammo". I go out of my way to buy that 124 grain NATO Winchester load by the case for defensive practice sessions because it mimics my 124 grain carry ammo almost perfectly in terms of recoil. I also like that being mil-spec ammo, it is weather sealed and not particularly sensitive to how it is stored in my supply shed. But it definitely feels different than the wimpy stuff some of my friends shoot, or at least that is what I say when I want to rag on them.
That's a nice P-01 you have there. I just took an SP-01 in trade this month, and am loving it, at least for the range. The pistol almost seems to shoot itself, and loves that Winchester 124 grain NATO loading!
I prefer to carry +P. But I always upgrade my recoil spring to something a bit heavier to reduce some of the recoil and slow down the slide velocity. Which helps with longevity. The thing that many miss, is if your gun is set up for standard pressure ammo. And you shoot a lot of +P then you're pushing the gun a bit harder with a spring designed more for standard pressures and slide/bolt thrust. And that leads to accelerated wear.
no it doesn‘t cause more wear. that‘s a bs myth. If it wears down your gun then get a real gun aka a glock.
@@Glockhead1 Yes in fact it does. This has long since been proven. But thanks for telling how little experience you do have. Oh and I have several Glocks, ranging from Gen 3 to Gen 5.
Wouldn't it only slow during compression and be faster when decompressing with a heavier spring?
@@nodescriptionavailable3842 You think it’s going to get faster while stripping a round under spring tension from the mag running it up the feed ramp and into the chamber??
@@MatteoSixSeventyFour well I don't know, that's why I asked, but it's counterintuitive to think a stiffer spring would decompress slower than a lighter one doing the same job. I'm not an expert like you. I apologize lol
+P for a heavier bullet will in most cases improve hollow point expansion compared to the non +P of the same bullet load and weight. That is why I choose to carry +P in 9mm and 45acp
And lessen penetration, the manufacturers loading is calibrated for the projectile, throwing more power in the case does not make it work better
The P01 will mitigate that differential better than most polymer compacts. Good description of the feeling.
I shoot +p through a p365 no problem. It's not bad.
I am, by no means an expert, but I read somewhere that 9mm Parabellum SAAMI pressure is 35,000 psi, NATO 9mm is 36,500 PSI and 9mm +P is 38,500 psi.
I definitely titled the video wrong, It needs to be “NATO vs +p”. I’ll get that changed.
harlistapr NATO maximum average pressure spec is listed at 36,000 psi with a possible %5 overpressure (+1800psi) rating without being considered out of or above spec. Although I have seen 9mm NATO at 38,000 psi which just a smidge below the max average SAAMI pressure spec for 9mm +P
HachiZenki It was Turkish 9mm.
There are 2 different pressure scales. cup and psi. not the same nor interchangeable numbers.
@HachiZenki ....NATO means machine gun ammo.
My choices in 9MM carry and home defense ammo for my two primary carry/home defense guns are:
G26 - Carry
1. Federal Personal Defense HST Micro 150 Grain, Part #: P9HST5S
2. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection, 9MM Luger +P 124 grain, Item #23611
G19 - Home defense
1. Federal Personal Defense HST 147 Grain, Part #: P9HST2S
2. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection, 9MM Luger +P 124 grain, Item #23617
My choices in 9MM practice ammo are:
G26 - Carry
1. Federal Syntech Action Pistol 150 grain, Part #: AE9SJAP1 (Low volume drills)
2. Hornady Critical Defense Lite, 100 gr. FTX, Item #90240 (Low volume drills)
3. My hand-loads using: Hornady 125 HAP, Power Pistol Powder w/C.O.L. of 1.060" and loaded to 1,000 fps (high volume)
G19 - Home defense
1. Federal Syntech Action Pistol 150 grain, Part #: AE9SJAP1 (Low volume drills)
2. Hornady Critical Defense 115 gr. FTX, Item #90250 (Low volume drills)
3. My hand-loads using: Hornady 125 HAP, Power Pistol Powder w/C.O.L. of 1.060" and loaded to 1,000 fps (high volume)
Choices for other guns and calibers are similar in factory carry and home defense ammo such as for G27 .40 cal S&W, SA 1911 .45 ACP and Colt DE 10MM. Hand-loads vary according to type shooing from bullseye to bowling pins and match target to 3 gun and ammo from 230 grain FMJ to 125 grain lead and much in between.
For low volume drills I try to duplicate my carry loads. I expend actual carry ammo about every six months and replace with fresh new ammo. For high volume practice or shooting I try to use lower powered low flash ammo that will not fatigue me as fast and of course save money. For competition I use whatever works best for my guns & my eyes. I shoot less as I get older so I reload less as well and, tend to shoot more factory ammo in low volume specific drills to maintain skills less often.
What is the shelf life for optimum velocity?
Good video. This guy has a great attitude when it comes to shooting firearms and experimenting, and he makes his experiments available to us on RUclips to enjoy. That's awesome. Have an awesome day and stay SAFE.
Thanks Chris, I appreciate it brother!
Great video my man, good to see you back! I would maybe just use +p only for my carry ammo, but use regular 9mm
Why didn't you just put 5 NATO and 5 +p in the same magazine? Would have been easier to see
I stumbled upon this video looking for feedback on NATO spec 9mm ammo after recently acquiring a POLISH MAG-98 pistol and wondering if the WW Black Labeled 134gr 9MM NATO may not be the best thing for it as it functions just barely with 115gr standard US 9mm ammo.
Flip side felt recoil dose not always indicate +P ammo. I know for a fact by experience that Hornady 135gr +P Critical Duty has less felt recoil than Remington UMC 9mm 115gr JHP.. in my various polymer framed Glocks.
Things like bullet crimp and powder burn rates come into play here.
I've always been under the impression that 9mm NATO (9mm Parabellum) is a hotter round (and not the standard for 9mm) where as 9mm Luger is the standard. I was hoping to get a better understanding of what the difference was between 9mm Parabellum and 9mm Luger +P. But I didn't get a real good explanation from this video.
Here is my 9mm experiences with a Sig P-228 3.9" barrel and a chronograph: Winchester "white box" USA 115gr fmj (and other generic 115gr fmjs like UMC, PMC etc) 1100-1140 fps. 124gr "NATO" (Winchester, IMI...) 1110-1160 fps. 124gr +p JHPs (Golden Saber, Gold Dots...) 1160-1200+ fps. Standard 115 < NATO 124 < +p 124 or hot...hotter...hottest.
Have you tried the new spec, M1152?
@@mdubb4855 yep. 100%.
I believe I could see the gun rise more with the +p. I think if you would of staggered the rounds. One +p one reg, it would have been easier for us to see. Still great job.
You are right, that would’ve made it much easier to see.
Winchester NATO 124gr is loaded to a +p pressure with a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps out of a 5" barrel. I have a couple different+p 124gr ammos that only have a muzzle velocity of 1150 to 1175. I don't get all caught up in the +p +p+ game because I don't know how ammo company's determine one load from another some of them just stick a velocity on the side of the box or website and how they got that number is questionable because I've had +p ammo that has a higher velocity than +p+ ammo. Not all +p and +p+ ammo is created equal you got to test them till you find what you and your firearm likes. But with the Winchester NATO you can't go wrong the best target and plinking and woods carry ammo money can buy I would even use it for self defense in a pinch just have to be mindful of over penetrateion.
I'm averaging 1160fps with NATO out of my 92FS Elite. And I'm averaging 1315fps with Underwood's +P+ 125 gr Gold Dot load. Now that's smoking and those bullets stay together. The 124 gr +P HST loads are a tad faster than NATO too. That's my two bits worth.
Can +p 124grain be used with a Beretta m9a3?
@@SweetandSourohmy The M9A3 can easily digest +P, and +P+, and anything else you care to feed it.
@@doghousedon1 thanks alot for answering! I thought so but it's been tough getting someone to respond.👍
@@SweetandSourohmy It's a military pistol and as such must shoot NATO ammo which basically specs out around +P. Enjoy shooting that Beretta.
@@doghousedon1 Are the magazines interchangeable? Are 92fs, M9 and m9a3 mags all the same?
Winchester NATO has the same velocity as most + P rounds the +P+ rounds is where you are going to see a little more felt recoil and velocity and excessive wear on your pistol. You can shoot+P and +P+ out of any modern gun I have shot +P+ out of a hipoint I wouldn't make it a steady diet out of any of my pistols rated or not. with ammo prices now a days who can afford to feed a lot of +P and +P+ ammo to your firearm anyway.
I haven't used +P, but I have some because I want better performance out of the 9mm cartridge. In particular, I have a box of 50 9mm +P Federal HSTs. The way I see it, good hollow points loaded to +P specs are for self defense and standard pressure ammo is for practice.
You should also run 4 mags of your carry ammo. So you know how it runs and shoots when it matters.
Awesome video! I shoot and carry +p+ Ranger T in a couple of my handguns.
TheDigitalDungeon
You should look into underwood ammos offerings. They have a +p+ 124g speer gold dot. And the same thing in 115g that has over 500 ft lbs of energy.
Although I like and carry underwood ammo in some of my firearms, I stay away from their +p+ loading which tend to push the bullet( often speer gold dots) too fast, causing expansion way too fast, sacrificing penetration. Not too mention possible bullet deformation. My opinion
@@eyenowrite885
I respect your opinion.
You should check this video out though ruclips.net/video/YcrsOyAa0gY/видео.html
Not a lot of penetration, but it was over 12"
@@DEATH_TO_TYRANTS Why? The Ranger T series is essentially the legendary Black Talon bullet minus the black Lubalox coating. It's a superior round and It's my carry round as well.
Oh snap! On a roll! 2 videos in 2 days! :) Glad 2 have ya back my brother!
You should have used a chronograph to measure the speed/velocity of NATO ammo versus the +P ammo. You just went by the way that the recoil felt against your hand. Please respond.
+p is up to 10% above max standard 9mm pressure nato is about 5% about standard 9mm pressure meaning all nato ammo is +p but not all +p is nato.
@@t-bfr45-70 OK. Thanks.
@@t-bfr45-70 "Standard" 9mm ix 35,000 PSI (SAAMI).
+P is max 38,500 PSI (SAAMI), which is the same as 9mm "Standard" (CIP). That's 10% above the SAAMI "Standard" load.
9mm NATO is up to 42,000, which is also the approximate limit for 9mm +P+ (which is unofficial and not defined by SAAMI). That's 20% above the SAAMI standard.
@@tid418 where are you getting nato 9mm is 42,000 psi. Closest thing to that be like the Russian ap rounds which are not within nato spec. cip and NATO are about same pressure when using same test method.
9mm SAAMI Standard, Piezo measurement from the center of the case body: 35,000 psi
9mm SAAMI +P, Piezo measurement from the center of the case body: 38,500 psi
9mm CIP Piezo measurement from case mouth, 34,084 psi
9x19 NATO, Piezo measurement from case mouth, 34,084 psi.
Depending on powder you can have higher pressure at the center or neck.
Lot can be said on how it's tested and how close to true max a company loads. Always are outlier special bullets like the Russian ap and some machine gun ammo but when comes to ammo that comes of a store shelf that says NATO it's not worth even think of it as anything but regular ammo. Because NATO is not a real rating on ammo.
Good to see you again Nolan! I couldn't tell the difference between them.
I did see some what of a difference, I didn't really see a flash with the standard NATO round but the +p round I saw a flash.
All I can add to the conversation is that the 124gr FMJ NATO ammo works really well in my UZI but is a little hard to handle in my SIG P938 pocket pistol.
I believe NATO 9MM is loaded to +p pressures and velocities.
Winchester manufacture 9mm NATO ammunition part number q4318. This ammo is commercial grade ammunition that is loaded to M882 military specs with 10% higher pressure than standard 124 grain FMJ ammunition, thus it is +P pressure level (but not specifically marked +P).
I'm pretty sure he mentioned that but then later contradicted himself
@ that is the symbol for nato . its on all nato spec ammo .
I'll be shooting 3 more boxes of it probably this week, as well as standard 124 grain. Will pay closer attention this time. :)
Sig m17 nato 124gr +p, ball or hollow is really nice ammo , My ported and comped pistols I notice more benefits from the +p ammo with muzzle rise and overall recoil control. If you mix this with normal ammo you will notice when you shoot one of these defiantly has a punch to it
Underwood 9mm 124gr. +P+ Hollow Points is my EDC in my G26😁👍
@ I’d rather be deaf then dead.
@@Platano_macho , the point is that in a small pistol with a 3.4" barrel, super-hot rounds are not likely to save you. In fact, shot placement is what matters, and the recoil will get in the way of that.
And it'll make you deafer.
People have weird, incorrect ideas about self-defense, and things that have more gunpowder and make a bigger bang are fodder for the macho fantasy.
What's the difference between 115gr and 124gr fmj..
Not much difference but I keep a .40 Glock 22 for my EDC and Glock 27 with 9mm conversion barrel for back up.
Glad to have you back man. Good vid. I will be performing my own little test to see what I come up with both of 9's and seeing how they perform using the OTS ammo vs. +p ammo. Thanks for showing this.
Alternate the rounds in the mag?
I carry in my cz p-07 NATO 9mm it worked for my brother in Afghanistan and kept him alive when his m4 did not go bang ,not only that I did a lot of fmj test and the NATO believe it or not when it makes contact with a living object it acts different then just making a straight threw hole hollow point is a good rd for house protection but in the field target's tend to hide behind cover so fmj will pen that and the perp call me full of it but I seen it in person and that's why I carry outside NATO 9mm but in my Taurus g2c I got crit defence
ALL MILITARY 9MM PISTOLS IN EUROPE HAVE 20-LBS GUIDE ROD SPRINGS INSTALLED IN THEM TO RELIABLY CYCLE THE HOT NATO AMMO USED. MOST AMERICAN GUNS HAVE 17-LBS GUIDE ROD SPRINGS IN THEM.
Good point. The tiny Shield 1.0 and 2.0 9mm uses the same stiff recoil spring as their 40 version so it handles NATO surprisingly well. They lightened the spring for the Plus though. Also, I just ordered a stiffer PX4 recoil spring off their website (for extended M1152 training and when it arrived it was marked".40" lol
Thanks Nolan. I am glad you're back. Appreciate your candid approach. I have some doubts that there is always a consistent gain in velocity & energy from +p variants. If the data is accurate from a few of our guntuber results, there are times where there is little or no change when chronographed. However, +p+ ammo does seem to be consistently greater. Thanks again. Keep at it. Your a big asset to the shooting community.
That's because the +P rating is about pressure, not velocity. And you can achieve higher pressure without gaining additional or significant increases in velocity. To gain a +P rating your pressures need to be 4% over 35,000 psi. With some powders you can get what is thought of as +P velcities without exceeding standard pressure specs.
For my RUGER PC chassis carbine (16" barrel) I'll get some Federal +P ammo in bulk (1,000). With that barrel length I'll be getting at least the energy I would get from a .357 round in a 5" pistol barrel.
My short carry 9 mm will still use Hornady Critical Duty.
Running 9mm, or smaller caliber,
I am always +p with heaviest grains. Simple answer.
A 147 or 152gr +p 9mm is in ALL of my magazines. Everything else is for target. A flat tip 147+p has a bit more ouch factor. Quite a bit. Listen to your steel. He'll tell ya. It's the only way to gain advantage with smaller calibers.
And yes I would like to just switch all of the hand toys out for 10mm. Easy fix there.
Great vid tho thnx for sharing.
9mm NATO is a military round,and manufacturers load it to higher pressures. It isn't a standard 9mm x 19 round.(They delivers greater velocity and energy.) But the increased pressure means it’s almost like a +P round and it is not identical to 9mm Luger. Many 9mm Luger handguns can’t handle the higher internal pressure.Best to check your weapons stats before firing the higher pressure rounds.Still any standard 9mm x 19 ammo- luger,parabellum, or most sold in the US will load into a 9 mm pistol unless the casing is different.
I've always used standard. The only time I don't is 147g 9mm . I will use +p for 147 only.
I personally only shoot Hornady 135g Practice ammo or Critical Duty 135g.
I think there is only 15 -25 FPS diffrence which is a lot but dead is dead. Whether your using plus p or standard with Critical Duty aiming center mass it's gonna get the job done . No questions
You should stager a magazine with a +p,standard, +p,standard and so on! That's really when you can tell a difference! Just my opinion. Try it! 👍
That is what my comment says
@@DisgustedGenXr ya man. Seems like he'd think of that? Lol
There can be a range in fps and pressure in them but in general the plus P and Nato should be in the same ballpark I would think? The standard 115gr luger seems to be the typical range ammo that any 9mm will shoot but you don’t want to run Nato in a gun not designed for it as far as I understand it. But many pistols seem to be rated +P for carry these days but I never even knew about Nato 9mm until I bought an FN designed for it.
which guns are plus p rated? and which gun handles +P the best?
The best source is the online version of the owners manual at the mfg website. Any pistol that is NATO rated will work. Many good European brands like Glock, Beretta, H&K, HS Produkt aka XD, Steyr, Sig (double check the P365 manual, it's made for USA consumer market). Any USA company's law enforcement approved models (M&P, probably including the Shields since they use the same brand name, but check manual). Ruger manuals tend to say +P wears the pistol out faster and is silent on NATO spec and M1152 is hotter so contact them. Turkish and Brazilian pistols, check the manual. I buy name brands for their impossible to confirm extra reserves. H&K might be tops.
@@mdubb4855 actually it's only the new Ruger concealed carry guns the Ruger American is built to eat it all day the old Ruger p series basically said haven't found anything in a 9x19 case that hurts it sr series were not far behind p series. Ruger been trying to lighten up their guns for the to make appeal for general public and running lighter recoil spring they will still eat a ocean of +p form my experience but they definitely are not they tanks they used to be my only real recommendation if plan shoot a lot of +p out of the new Ruger guns is change to a heavier recoil spring it will reduce the wear. Edit here Had actually open my security 9 and max9 manual it also say No 9mm ammunition manufactured in accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards is known to be beyond the design limits or known not to function in this pistol. The lc9 does leave NATO out. The p365 manual
Always use ammunition that
complies with the industry performance standards established by the Sporting
Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI) or ammunition
manufactured to military specifications.
@@mdubb4855 guess RUclips didn't like my long comment. The p365 say any saami ammo and any military ammo is within its capabilities the max9 and security 9 both say No 9mm ammunition manufactured in accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards is known to be beyond the design limits or known not to function in this pistol. Lc9 is only one that doesn't say anything about NATO. The Rugers will eat a ocean of +p/NATO only recommendation I have is change to heavier recoil spring to reduce wear.
@@t-bfr45-70 thanks for looking those up!
@@t-bfr45-70 I saw the other comment in my feed.
9mm NATO is not a standard pressure round.
The SAAMI pressure for 9mm Luger ammo is around 35,000 PSI, and C.I.P (think European SAAMI) rates 9mm Luger ammo at 34,080 PSI. ... That means that when compared to standard 9mm ammo, the 9mm NATO ammo is running a higher pressure, analogous to a 9mm +P load, which SAAMI rates around 36,000 PSI.
Anyone who is an advocate for modern 9mm being a great caliber, as effective as .40 or .45, but with less recoil, MUST shoot NATO spec for practice and carry +P to even pretend to be able fulfill those claims of better shot placement in less time of a terminally effective cartridge. Standard pressure 9mm has the longest proven history of failing to stop bad guys.
Typical regurgitated nonsense without any evidence to back it up. Of course 9mm has the longest proven history of failing to stop bad guys, as it’s older than .40 S&W or .45ACP. The .40 and .45’s proven history of failing to stop bad guys is much shorter.
9mm standard throws ~320-360 ft-lbs from a 6" barrel, on average.
+P can go from ~360-526 ft-lbs. That's a considerable increase. As long as it's not a steady diet, +P ammo is fine for most firearms rated for it. I'll be sending one of my 9mm handguns off to the 460Rowland company so they can modify the barrel and spring to fire their proprietary 9mm round, going up to 650 ft-lbs. :D
Glocks were made for the old nato standard which is somewhere between +P & +P+ And that’s austrian /german quality🙌
Get a chronograph. You can get them inexpensive for around $80.
NATO goes through my Beretta M9 Commercial at about 1180 ft per second, more or less.
Federal Tactical 124gr +p+ hydrashoks go through my Beretta at about 1130, more or less.
Definitely love the sights. The plus p ammo had more noticeable muzzle flare. And hey it's great to see you again. It seems like a long time since you have posted.
Did you get any light strikes with the NATO ammo?
my nato's are 124grain @ 1200 fps. on the box it says they're over pressured by 10-15% than industry standard
Just my opinion, but I think you'd need to use ballistic gel and several mags of each to see a real distinction. I suspect in the real world, there'd be little effective difference. So +P is probably just money wasted in this case. I could imagine the difference being more important with 380 ACP, especially if +P makes a JHP blossom where standard power won't. Good stuff!
Hey Nolan! Glad to see you're ok. I use standard pressure. From what I've seen, it actually performs best. I think +p is mostly hype with a modicum truth like anything else. But, until I find out differently, my carry load is Underwood XD 90 +p. The problem is, we need live targets who will live long enough to tell us which hurts more? haha.
Btw, just picked up my first CZ a few days ago.
You said you use standard pressure, believe it works best and that +p is mainly all hype...then you admit to carrying +p for everyday carry...huh?...that being said and thrown out with the daily garbage that usually comes out of my mouth, I like the Underwood ammo I have tried so far. The groups I shoot are comparable to what I practice with so that is what I want. It is very expensive though and I always cringe after I shoot it.
those 124 gr winchester nato white boxes are great get them if you can find them
I would expect to see chronograph velocities to be really be sure what one was shooting. Relative to the priming, I do not know if the nato standard specifies harder primers. Submachineguns depending on the particular model, particularly the open bolt guns are often fired with harder primer ammo. In a 9mm I never weaken the hammer/striker spring.
I don’t think nato rounds are standard pressure, I believe they start at 36.500 psi and go up they are pretty much a +p round , they are some nato rounds that have over 39k psi that’s over the max for +p witch is 38.500 psi
Any difference would likely be measured in a couple feet per second. it's not like comparing a subsonic load to a +p if there is any tangible difference the only way to tell would be a chrono.
Actually NATO 124 grains are my favourite bullets
Good video. I would have like to have seen if the + p does more damage or gets deeper penetration. Maybe your next film you can show us that. Appreciate it brother. Have a blessed day.
Notice muzzle flash with the +P. I did not see any with the NATO rounds.
9mm NATO is actually not standard 9mm, 9mm NATO and 9mm luger two different cartridges one is hotter with a 124 gr projectile, and the other is standard, plus P would be common for defense, I'm thinking on getting some 9mm NATO 124gr for winter conceal carry ammo, my Glock 43x does say I can use NATO rounds, and +p and standard 9 luger
+p is up to 10% above max standard 9mm pressure nato is about 5% about standard 9mm pressure meaning all nato ammo is +p but not all +p is nato.
You shoot faster with the standard. And have more experience/confidence with the standard.
NATO isn't Standard., NATO IS +P
It's 1200 FPS along with just under 400ftlbs of energy
Thanks for the comparison video, always enjoyable! keep up the good work!
I use +P for defense ammo only, and a NON +P ball / FMJ for just general shooting. Don't feel that much recoil difference in my heavy-ish CZ P-01.
I know I am going to sound like an idiot, but how do you know if your firearm is +p rated?
Ever heard of this thing called Google? It just came out.
@@Kawmbat_Veteran ever hear of I tried that already and didn't get a satisfactory response? Ever hear of I wanted the input, dialogue, interaction with an actual person? Ever hear of I already recieved the information I was looking for from decent non - douche bag people? Ever hear about take your attitude and shove it? Ever hear of my question is two months old?
Velocity of 9MM Nato 1254 grain ammo @ 10' from a 3.9' barrel averages 1145FPS
Good stuff Nolan!
Can you shoot plus p in Taurus gc2
Great comparison bro.
Congrats on your return
You can tell instantly the noticeable difference in recoil and also the gas pressure leaving the barrel. +p round produced visible gas discharge attempts tip of the barrel with a subtle flash. You should have checked the difference in penetration power of both rounds, and you should keep the rounds with in the same grain to minimize the difference in performance to only its powder load and not other factors.
The NATO round has higher pressure than the +P by 500 psi.
Is CZ p-01 +p rated?
What about +p+ ???
Wouldn’t it make more sense to put every other round in your magazine plus P
Hello Nolan,
the 9mm Nato ammo is a military standard !
9mm Nato ammo is guaranteed supersonic ammo
which excels the speed of sound.
Thus, the 124 Grain bullet is faster
than its sound.
You can use Nato ammo with
military pistols, only.
Standard pistols might go bust
with Nato ammo !
Warning:
9mm Nato ammo will destroy your hearing
without a good ear protection.
Standard 9mm ammo might be subsonic
at high temperatures and long
distances..
Best Wishes
Dipl.-Ing. Ralf Steffler
Netcool Certified Consultant
Out~of~The Box Solutions
Offenbach am Main
The winchester nato stuff isnt that strong
PPU 124gr nato are pretty hot for ball ammo. If you don't have a sp01 get one. Gun is a beast.
NATO is the same as +P, isn’t it?
TheHumbleMarksman Not exactly but very close...NATO vs standard you can tell a difference but NATO vs +P diffucult since NATO is so HOT
I do believe +p is hotter nato BUT I did title the video wrong. It should be titled “NATO vs +P” not “standard vs +p”.... I’ll get that changed.
Nolan Outdoors Its good, alot of people dont even know what or why NATO is hot. Hell you can go to the shelves and buy 5 different standard ammo and run them through chrono and actually see and feel differences sometimes a
RAZORJB you run any LAX 124? It’s supposedly fairly warm for target ammo. I’d run nato Winchester but it’s so damn dirty. I try and get AE or Blazer 124 when it’s on sale.
Keith Gemmill nah never have but Blazer 124gr is pretty good and I just got 2k rounds yesterday 😁
Great video, shots sounds like the same. With the regular nato, the slide recoil looks not tipping the nose of the pistol too much as blowback is smoother. But with greater energy +P rounds, the nose of the slide seems to tip up a little higher as the blowback pushes the slide back with more energy and the recoil seems a little faster on the same spring rate.
what i think, is that standard vs +p velocities is too minimal to justify the added cost of plus p. ive seen alot of vids where both were chronoed and the difference was more often than not 150 fps or less. also i know as well as anyone that chronograph readings can be inaccurate, but one vid i saw was where a guy was running brown bear steel cased loads and was getting readings in the high 1200's and that stuff isnt even marked +p. hard to know exactly what you're getting sometimes
To my eye 👁 the NATO 9mm 124 grain looked hotter. More muzzle rise and more smoke. 💨 🇺🇸🗽🦅🇦🇹
NATO rounds should be loaded to 1300 fps.
They're really close, NATO looks like maybe a slightly hotter round to me
A chronograph would have been nice because that didn't prove anything. I don't believe NATO spec and +P are the same. That said, I run both and do just fine with them. I have noticed my +P rated pistol has a stiffer recoil spring and I have to swap out a lighter spring to get (some brands) standard pressure plinking ammo to function reliably. Not like an occasional FTE or FTC is a bad thing when practicing. It trains you to clear malfunctions while practicing.
You say standard pressure vs +P, but then pull put NATO rounds. NATO is actually hotter than +P at 36,500 vs 36,000. 9mm Luger is (depending on the standard used) is 34,080 - 35,000 psi.
I really enjoyed your channel, I hope you're doing well!
...looks the same to me.
Do you have a chrony?
Unfortunately I don’t
you picked a very flat smooth shooting gun to do a comparison of recoil lol nice vid always good to get the CZ to the range any excuse is a good excuse
Nato is in-between standard and +p Mainly for reliability (submachine guns, dirty guns etc)
NATO hits harder
Fwiw 9mm nato isn’t exactly standard pressure. It’s pretty close to being a +p round.
Winchester is NOW light loading its NATO 124 gr ammo vs 2018 lots made. New Production Winchester 124 gr NATO is NOT WHAT IT USED TO BE! ( I carry 124 gr FMJ)
Nice comparison!
9mm OTAN
But you never really said that there was a difference or did I miss it he didn’t say which one felt hotter than the other
Its a pistol round so it’s not going to make that big a deal. Shot placement is critical with a pistol round.
I've been shooting 124gr winch in my 9mm carbine, and I do notice a pronounced slap on my cheek! Good stuff.
Without velocity stats, and no visual aspects, vis-a-vis ballistic gels, everything is subjective.
+p is up to 10% above max standard 9mm pressure nato is about 5% about standard 9mm pressure meaning all nato ammo is +p but not all +p is nato.
If you're going to do a comparison video, it needs to be something more than "I could feed a difference but it wasn't that drastic". This would be much more informative if you had chonographed the loads.
Why didn’t you use a chronograph? The test would been much more definitive.
9mm Nato IS +P, its loaded to 10-15% higher pressure than the average 9mm round.
Maybe put ten rounds in the magazine. Five +p and then five rounds of Nato on top. Shoot all ten in one string without the delay of changing magazines.
You are right, that would’ve made things much easier to see. Unappreciated the feedback.