As a novice in firearms and firearm history, these educational episodes that focus on a larger theme than single weapon are my favorites. They are filled with super-interesting information in one place. I had no idea so many 9mm types exist! Can you do this for the caliber ".30" because there's .3030, .303, 30-06, and others that I do I'd really like to learn about.
I’ve been around firearms since I was a child growing up in the US and moving to the UK. I didn’t even know about all the various 9mm rounds until like a year ago. That’s why I love anything to do with firearms, there is so much to learn and new interests to find! The best community in the entire world 🙌🏼
Is love to see a 7.62mm/30 caliber comparison video, but it would be a nightmare, since there are so many varieties. I'll get started on a list and update this comment later
Same here, I would love to see more videos on the development of different types of ammunition families, I guess it goes without saying but John Browning sure was an inventive fella
One problem with the .30 cal would be all the "well known facts" around it that are actually misleading, misinformed, or downright untrue. For instance, it is "well known" a .303 British (Lee Enfield...) or 7.62x54R (Mosin...) barrel will NOT stabilize a .308" bullet. "Of course", your bullet will end up tumbling the second it exits the barrel, and worse, your gun is "likely'" to blow up because the smaller bullet will induce higher pressures. Well, the first part is only true for well-worn barrels with poor tolerances. I have 2 Mosins and 1 N°4, and they shoot 147 grs .308" just fine. As for the second part, it's utter nonsense. Even if the 0.1mm of diameter difference mattered for a lead bullet in a steel barrel (it doesn't), how the hell is a smaller bullet (that will allegedly tumble down the barrel, remember) supposed to plug the barrel BETTER?
9x39mm is another to add to the list. Essentially a 7.62x39 cartridge necked up to 9mm. The goal was to create a sub-sonic round with the same muzzle energy as the 5.45x39 for use in suppressed rifles such as the AS Val, VSS Vintorez, 9a-91 and their derivatives .
@@yeetergriffin1586 I was overseas and got my hands on one for a day. What I recall was that the barrel was shorter than it appeared, cased in the integral suppressor (which could be removed as part of field stripping). It was 6-7 years ago, so some details are fuzzy in my memory.
5:08 - The folks at S&B tried *so* hard to advertise it is a FMJ bullet, but using the single largest font on the box end and placing it at the usual start-point for reading (top left) to be first-read just wasn't enough :)
I hate to poke at Ian over that because I do that a lot too. I read the "specifications/datasheet" side and miss the big print or info in a different font. I did notice it here, but well after he had already sat the box down.
Tbf I think it does the nice function of being the only readable font at a distance (say behind the counter on a shelf). Sorta turns into an obvious thing so obvious you ignore it up close but can't help but see it from 10ft away Aka "I'm also guilty of this."
That 9mm "confusion" got some people in trouble here in Brazil some time ago, because 9mm luger was basically prohibited to civilians and some CZ 82 marked "9mm short" owners were arrested for posetion of a restricted firearm
I have seen 9×21mm IMI cartridge that was introduced for civilian market. It has the same charge, bullet, and overall length as 9×19mm Luger. The only difference is the case length, extra 2mm. The idea was that it could not be used with any NATO 9mm pistol. I think it was used in Beretta 98FS. However, it is not the same as one of the soviet 9×21mm with more charge and armor piercing bullet. (Actually he was talking about it at the end)
Here in Russia we’ve another story about 9x18. After the WW2 there was a lot of German pistols in Soviet Union, that was taken there by soldiers as trophies and souvenirs. And the engineers had to design a 9mm cartridge, that is not compatible with German pistols (which were in 9mm Para), so nobody could use their trophy Lugers and Walters (the biggest concern was that a criminal can somehow get his hands on pistol ammo)
Sounds about right most authoritarian dictatorships want an unarmed population. Taking everyone’s trophies would anger people and be politically disastrous so the best way to do that would be just make a pistol with a new cartridge that isn’t used by those trophies
This is why I always tell people not to simply use the diameter of the cartridge. The amount of times I've asked someone what kind of gun they have and they say "7mm" is honestly infuriating. There's 7mm-08, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm Mauser, 7mm Spanish Mauser, 7mm Argentine Mauser, 7mm Luger, and probably a dozen more 7mm cartridges I don't even know about. Or when they say "7.62". 7.62x38, 7.62x54, 7.62x25, 7.62x39, 7.62x51, and again, probably more I don't know about
There is also a relatively new Russian 9x21 that aimed getting higher power handgun cartridge. It is not widely used but there are few interesting handguns made for it. And also a 9x39 subsonic used by special forces but that's whole another type of ammo
Shame that the Hungarian law doesn't allow private citizens to transport defused munitions abroad, even with the right paperwork, otherwise I could more than happily send a 9 mm (9×25)Mauser cartridge to you.
@@jdm1066 There's no comparison between them. The 9x25 Mauser was a good round but the 9x25 Dillon is a pure monster. The 9x25 Dillon is a bottleneck round. The base and rim diameter of a 9x25 Dillon is higher than the 9x25 Mauser. The 9x25 Mauser can propel a 123 gr projectile at a maximum velocity of 1362 fps, while the 9x25 Dillon can propel a 147 gr projectile at 1495 fps. There are lighter 125 gr and 95 gr Dillon projectiles out there which attain even higher velocities.
I always understood the "designed not to be used in enemy weapons" thing to be bogus fuddlore, with the real reason for the bullet diameter differences lying in a simple difference of caliber measurement methods (Western being land-to-land, Soviet being groove-to-groove) ... but the Winter War thing makes the fuddlore make more sense. Then I also remembered that German 7.63 Mauser can be fired from captured 7.62 Tokarev weapons, eg the PPSh and PPS submachine guns, and suddenly designing your ammunition so it can't be used in enemy weapons makes even more sense.
I would love to see some documentation on this point. If it really had been a concern of the Soviets, we would expect to see this reflected in their internal reports. I've never heard of any that address the issue of bullet diameter and incompatibility with Western weapons. Pistols have marginal military importance anyway. If faced with a Western invasion of their territory, the Soviets would have had much bigger things to worry about than the invaders being able to use captured stocks of pistol ammunition.
Agreed. Apart for reverse: West measures groove to groove (that is why western "9mm gun" bullet is exactly 9mm) and Russians measure land to land (that is why russian "9mm gun" bullet is bigger to fit into groves).
Also quick tip, if you're ever shooting an odd ball 9mm at a range where theres lots of 9x19 brass on the ground, lay down a tarp and have a brass spotter. Because when your hard to find, has to be hand loaded brass gets lost in amongst the the rabble, it's gone forever.
@@pbgd3 I have a friend stand next me with a net lol. Never heard of a range that doesn't let you pick up your brass if you want, even if most people don't bother I reload my own, good thing is my buddy owns a gunshop so I've got an arrangement to buy their floor brass cheap, so I just take the lot and pay one of my kids to sort it. I bet your range is selling it. 🤣
@@stevepalpatine2828 tons of folks use brass catchers or similar. The range just had do many issues with people delaying shooting to mess with brass so if it hits the floor the brass is swept up and there is a deal with a company that cleans sorts sizes and deprimes. If you want to keep it off the floor and keep it then you need to make sure it doesnt eject forwards onto the range because you do not get to retrieve. Range officer is required to keep the floor clear of loose brass
Years ago I picked up a Spanish Destroyer carbine, it is 9mm Largo and was issued to the police. It is kind of a mini Mauser but only has the bolt stem as the locking lug (bought it primarily because it was about $175 and came with an unopened case of 1000 rounds of surplus ammo), So much fun for plinking I latter got a Star Modelo A (1911 clone) in the same 9mm Largo but also marked for 38 Super. Both work great.
The Spanish Destroyer carbine is a neat little rifle in an unfortunate cartridge. You _can_ get it rechambered in 9x19, but I don't think it's worth the cost. Unfortunately the build quality in them varies wildly since many were made in essentially a variety of garages in Eibar Spain. The fit of the bolt in the receiver varies, as does the quality of the steel. Otherwise they're a handy little carbine. Note that you can use regular 9mm parabellum dies to load for it, and brass is available from Starline. I generally load mine subsonic because then it's fairly quiet (although not quiet enough to forgo hearing protection.) Not the most accurate plinker in the world but fun as an inexpensive big bore. Personally I would be reluctant to shoot 38 Super in the thing. I'm not confident at the strength of those locking lugs.
A couple years ago I bought a Star Modelo B and for a minute before I could research it I thought it might take Largo, but soon learned that's the Modelo A. I am glad I bought it when I did. According to the one's for sale that I have seen lately the price has gone up (like almost everything else).
When I introduce people to firearms, I have to warn them that cartridge names are not super accurate. 38 special is similar in power to 9x19, but much bigger is size. 357 Magnum is much more powerful than 38 Special. Etc.
@@con6lex 38-40 is a 40 cal, 38 Special is .357 while 38-55 is .381...the 219 Donaldson Wasp, 220 Swift, 221 Remington Fireball, 222 Magnum, 223 Remington , 224 Weatherby Magnum and 225 Winchester ALL use .224 diameter projectiles... lol.... Never ending fun!
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz 9mm Luger is for your Luger, 9mm parabellum is for when you're going to war, 9x19 is for when you've got a ruler, 9mm NATO is for annoying the French, 9mm OTAN is for annoying everyone else.
@@lostalone9320 Wide adoption certainly helped the 9x19mm's success, but even in a vacuum the round really is a good design that balances power, control, and capacity at a point that just works super well for a lot of people. Design choices like a flexible case length-to-OAL ratio, relatively high working pressures compared to its contemporaries, using a rimless case and headspacing on the mouth instead, and committing to a power level above what blowback designs could easily handle; all of that turned out to be right in line with how gun designs would evolve over the years. And improvements in bullet technology really gave it a great performance boost in more recent decades.
As someone that doesn’t know much about firearms in general, and pretty much watches Gun Jesus for the history stories, this adds another layer to which I want and need to learn. All those 9mm variations are confusing.
Yeah dont feel bad. Was only familiar with 3 of those cartridges. 9mm Para, 380 ACP and 9mm Largo. Didn't realize that 9mm Makarov was actually 9.2mm, until Ian shared that bit of info.
At least you're not trying to banish firearms from the face of the earth like other people who don't know much about them (btw I don't think there's many people who know as much as Ian)
Dont worry, here i was thinking i knew lots about the firearms.. sure i know the guns pretty well though there is still plenty i have never heard about but ou boy when we go to ammunition just the different calibers alone are overwhelming let alone things like what ammo works with what guns, for instance i just recently learned that you can fire 7.62x53R from 54R rifle no issues, but on other way around you must be able to easily close the bolt or whole thing might blow up. Then there are the ammo type differences and weights of different bullets, differences between primers and top of all that there is manufacturer tolerance differences, wear on the guns and such things... For most people that is not issue, just get to store and buy ammo that fits to your gun and stay with it, but to find best possible result and avoid the worst.. dear god that it lots of knowledge... And of course you need to filter all the miss information from the info you find, like "222 or 223 can shoot 300 blackout just fine, try it" NO dont, that caliber for some mystical reason fits to magazine and chamber, but it will definitely blow the rifle on your face..
Good stuff! I’d happily watch this for all sorts of calibers. It would be interesting to see ammunition grouped and compared by other measures, like muzzle velocity or projectile weight. I’m not sure how far we are getting from “forgotten” but it’s pretty clear that’s a heuristic, not a firm rule, and I entirely agree with the utility of that approach.
Well, the Soviet Union did decide to make its main mortars in 82mm for the reason you give for the larger bullet diameter if the 9mm Makarov. Everyone else had 81mm, so captured ammunition FROM the Soviets couldn't be used against them, but the reverse didn't hold. It is possible to fire an 81mm round from an 82mm mortar, all be it with a reduced range.
Mortar shells were a thing, but the real reason for 9mm PM to suddenly be 9.2 is a different one It's actually happened because of a difference in caliber measuring methods between countries. In USA and most of the NATO countries a caliber is measured as a distance between opposing bottoms of grooves, while in Rusian Empire-USSR-Russia - by opposing _lands_ of grooves, and cuz a bullet diameter is bigger than that distance in order for grooves to cut into the bullet's jacket - that makes all russian actual bullet diameters slightly bigger than declared gun calibers It was a thing for 1891 Mosin 7.62x54r, so you can't blame soviets trying to deny enemy use of our ammo (not to mention that caliber is not the only cartridge dimension)
The 9x23mm is also a fully rimless case, basically an improvement on .38 Super (A semi-rimmed case based on .38 Browning Long/ACP) Ironically, .38 Super is still around, and 9x23mm is slowly dying out.
It looks like 9x23 is slightly longer (~0.5mm) than 38 super, and since 38 super went fully rimless eventually, I suppose there just wasn't enough incentive to alter firearms that were already chamber for the 38.
@@Ashcrash82 That, and it was also an extremely narrow niche round, that had no appreciable advantage in competition over the firmly established round (.38 Super.) Basically, nobody really wanted to rechamber their .38 Super guns in 9mm Super, and spend the money on the more expensive round, when .38 super already does the job, well, and you can actually get it.
Well the 9x23 Winchester is also loaded to higher factory pressure than .38 Super. There’s also .38 Super Comp which is the rimless version of .38 Super. And .38 TJ which is essentially the same as Super Comp. There’s actually a ridiculous number of only slightly different cartridges around that “9mm Major” threshold for competition shooting.
@@sethrich5998 Yep, from what I hear, it shot flatter too, but not enough to get new sites, new barrels, and new ammo, at the ranges that IPSC generally sets their targets up (Well under 100 yards/meters) It was basically too much money to spend on minimal returns. Also, the fact that they were both called .38 Super, and 9mm Super, while not quite being interchangeable was potentially confusing.
You mention that the 9mm Winchester Magnum was developed for the Automag pistol. I believe it and the 45 Winchester Magnum were developed for the Wildey, not the Automag. Although the 9mm Winchester Magnum was later chambered in the Automag III.
There was a .357" automag cartridge initially, but it was a bottleneck and you more or less had to make your own. So the 9mm win mag would have been slightly more attractive _once it was available,_ but it wasn't around for the first automag pistols. Other bottleneck .357" pistol cartridges were available, which is why Ian is keeping out of this rabbit hole. edit, added a bit. You are quite right about the Wildey: it used to say this in Cartridges of the World when Frank Barnes was still with us.
I believe you are correct, I have a bit of an interest in the Wildey and Auto Mag have collected a few images. In a scan of Guns & Ammo May 1979, there is a review of the Wildey by Howard E. French which includes one in 45 Win Mag and one in 9mm Win Mag. I haven't found any more current information on the 9mm Win Mag Wildey pistols so I'm not sure if they were ever put into production (or if they just had very low orders) but a picture in the scan shows it lined up with 15 rounds.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine All these things are good fun. But the ergonomics of the semi-autos are always going to be awkward when you need good ergonomics to handle the recoil. As Ian said of the Wildey when he shot a backup gun match with one "it's made of sharp edges and corners." Revolvers can be better. But I can see why two or four-barrel Howdah pistols existed. A modern Howdah might be the best solution for the very hot cartridges because it would eliminate frame-cutting and control setback. Would cost money to get the barrels regulated, though. I don't want anyone to go after a Cape Buffalo with a single-shot, pistol or rifle.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine I shot IMSHA in the 80's and flame cutting was definitely a problem on the Ruger 357 Max Blackhawks. I saw examples. Dan Wesson dealt with it by using a longer cylinder on their DA revolver. Ruger used the same length cylinder as their 357 magnums cut deeper for the Max cartridge. You see the same thing happened with some 454 Casuul revolvers more recently. Ruger quickly withdrew their 357 Max from the market. If that is not a problem, I don't know how you would define problem.
Another great video, but don't forget the distinction between 9x21mm used in countries like Italy and Israel and the 9x21mm 'Gyurza' round developed by the Russians to be anti-body armor, with the capability of causing a substantial wound to an unarmored target. Definitely would love to see you hands on with weapons like the Russian SR-1 pistol and SR-2 Submachine gun that use this round!
Som useless trivia, The "swedish K" submachine gun used a 9x19 round known as m/39B. We had LOTS of this ammo in bunkers. In the 80´s we had the finnish Lahti pistol, but it was getting old. So the military started to look for a new pistol. The police already had the Sig 226, which the folks in boots hoped to get to. But alas, testing showed the Sig didnt handle the m39/B. That round had a slightly hotter load. In order to use up all the old ammo, we got the Glock 17, which handled the stored ammo. I didnt cry, carried the Glock for ages and was happy with it. This is not a new thing. When sweden got the FN Mag (m 240) in 58, they came with 6,5mm barrels. Not until all the old mauser ammo was spent did we get 7,62mm barrels for it. The beancounters!
I always thought it was a step backwards when Sweden switched from 6.5x55 to 7.62 NATO. Maybe not for machine guns, but for rifles anyway. Imagine a G3 in 6.5mm.
Thank you for this inventory of the 9mm cartridges. As a French man, I'd like to add something about France laws about firearms. The 9x19mm is considered as sort of a war cartridge. We use categories to sort the types of weapons, and the use of this 9mm automatically puts any weapon shooting it at least in the B category, the same as an AR-15, for exemple. No matter the way the firearm operates, it will be at least a B cat, which is not the case for every cartridges. Other cartridges are considered the same, i.e. 5,56x45, 7,62x39, 5,45x39, 7,62x51 (but ironically not .308 or 7,62x54R). We also have weird laws about firearms, you Americans are not alone 🙂
.308 is basically the same as 7.62x51 so that's even weirder, ig maybe because .308's are favored for sporting rifles because of the very slightly hotter load france considers that more of a hunting or sporting round? although almost any battle rifle or lmg (that chambers x51) can handle taking .308's in place of them now, and theoretically .308's would have marginally better performance so i don't get why the technically weaker one would be banned, but not the other
@@ambi_cc8464 it's exactly what you wrote. .308 is considered as hunting cartridge and 7,62x51 as military. Gun laws are made by people who didn't ever shoot a gun, to reassure people who are afraid of guns.
On the web-site of Beretta several pistols are available both in 9*19 and 9*21 calibres. I expected that the 9*21 calibre was made especially for the French/Italian civilian market, as stated in the video. Can one nowadays in France have a pistol in 9*19 calibre under the same conditions as (used to) apply to the 9*21 calibre pistol? Just asking for a griend … ;)
@@olde4eyes 9x19 is category B at least, no matter other considerations as length or action. 9x21 is not. So depending on the length and the action, it can be cat B or C. Cat C is easier to get than cat B, but the two of them can be obtained for an adult with no background.
I can listen to this stuff all day. I love the period of 1890 to 1930 where it seems everyone was trying new things and there was just a riot of innovation unhindered by practical experience :)
And in the 40’s the Germans procrastinated and didn’t get a lot of their homework in on time. They had some good designs. MG 42 is still in use (some variant of it) today I think.
It was also largely because patents. You couldn't use the good ideas unless you wanted to pay for them, so most people just kept designing alternatives while they waited for the good patents to expire.
Italy actually removed the restriction of 9x19 as a military caliber. This was during early 2021 if I remember correctly, though I am unsure if that was just the vote for it and if it is coming into effect later or if it is already in effect.
It has by the upper house in June this year. In fact an high court had already pointed out that the rationale for forbidding tbe 9mm luger was baseless, since it is no more powerful/letal that 9×21mm.
False, it was presented the request to do so, the last month it passed the Senate and now it's going to be debated in the Chamber. Probably it's going to pass but we don't know until 2022
I never realized 9mm Makarov and 9mm Ultra are slightly different. I have a commercial Makarov pistol I bought many years ago and I’ve been shooting 9mm Ultra through it all this time. Probably a good thing I wasn’t trying to shoot the larger ammo through the smaller bore gun!
@@Gieszkanne .223 is smaller than 5.56, and theres almost no accuracy issues with it in guns that are popular to use both cartridges interchangeably in, like an ar15
5:05 "This… is also full metal jacket, although it doesn't say it on there." - the box literally has "FMJ" in large letters in the upper left corner. Sorry, Ian, but opportunities to correct you on anything are rare, so it's good to relish them. 😆
9mm Super Cooper... Guns & Ammo, December 1973... Sometimes called .38 Super Cooper... With a 125 gr bullet, he was getting around 1750 fps -- 850 ft-lbs... I converted a double stack M1911 to it a couple of years ago... Use a .38 Super barrel with a recoil spring a couple of pounds heavier... Take .223 brass, cut it down to 23 mm... Resize the brass with the .38 Super dies, using the shell plate for the .223 cartridges...
Couple of years ago I went to the local authorities to get my paperwork ready to pickup a CZ Shadow 2 and told the lady to issue me paperwork for a "9mm pistol" She put in "9mm AE" which is probably the first entry in her list alphabetically when looking for 9mm. The dealer realized this and I had to drive 1h back to the authorities to get it corrected. Lesson learned there - everyone is talking about the 9mm but it's not that obvious to some people.
Lack of diligence on firearms admin, nothing bad could come of this, don't worry about it or spend breath asking for details, just pick the first one on the list
@@stevepalpatine2828 this was for a pistol - but when buying a firearm the caliber has to be defined in the permit. You can then get a stamp that allows you to buy ammo for that firearm/caliber with no further restrictions
@@WodanLive Got ya. Yeah that makes more sense, I just got the impression you had to go file paperwork everytime you wanted more ammo and had to wait for it, that seemed like a huge pain in the ass, I see what you mean now. Hey hows that Shadow handle by the way?
@@stevepalpatine2828 Absolutely in love with the Shadow 2 .. even got a second one (optics ready) and got a 6" slide made for them so I can shoot it in precision competition.
Didn't stop him from mentioning the .380ACP... Yes, for .357Sig he should have made an exception. It meets all the other parameters of the calibers he mentioned except the naming convention. More likely he didn't want to antagonize the 9mm luger lemmings by introducing a 9mm cartridge that completely outperforms 9mm luger.
I know. I was like, "Why isn't he talking about the bestest 9mm? The bastard son of the 9mm and .40S&W?" Sig even did us a favor by not putting a 9 in the name. Some dudes will only shoot something with a 4 in the name, but 357Sig has us, "Eh. Close enough. I guess this is OK."
But I guess the big question is why 9mm? It's like everyone agreed that a 9mm diameter cartridge was the way to go but why? Even in revolvers you have .38/.357 which are also 9mm.
There must be a balance in heat build-up, ballistic efficiency...lots of technical reasons, I imagine. It's probably a little arbitrary, but it's been around for so long that it must have some real utility. Even .50 BMG is losing out to .337 Lapua for long-distance shooting, a bullet shy of 9mm in diameter.
It goes back to the ".36" calibre settled upon by Colt for his 'Navy' calibre. The .38 Short Colt designed to replace this used a 'heeled' bullet the same diameter (.375). Removing the heel reduced the diameter to .357 and the rest is history.
The 357sig is also a 9mm cartridge. The “357” in the name was intended to reflect the ballistic similarity to the popular .357magnum, but the bullet in the sig is .355 in diameter - the same as 9mm parabellum.
I worked with this fellow in the Navy who had bought himself a semi-auto pistol in .357 (Sig). Only .357 he knew of was Magnum so he bought the wrong ammo for the gun! I tried to tell him but he wouldn't listen. Perhaps he learned when he finally attempted to shoot it.
Isn't the .357 mag bullet the exact same diameter as a .38 spec bullet? But they didn't want to call it .38 magnum because they thought people would blow up their .38 spec guns with the new magnum rounds? Not sure if this is true, but that's what I heard.
@@maximilianmustermann5763 The .38 Special is much older than the .357 Magnum. Smith and Wesson released the .38 Special in 1898 to replace the .38 Long Colt in the US military. It was never what we would call a “magnum” cartridge. Bullet diameter does not determine whether a cartridge is magnum. A magnum cartridge usually uses a hotter primer and faster burning powder to achieve the higher pressures that define a magnum round. The .38 Special was never in any way a magnum cartridge. The first magnum cartridge, the .375 H&H Magnum, did not come out until 1912. The .357 Magnum was developed by the famed Elmer Keith along with Phillip Sharpe and Col. Wesson and introduced in 1934. Yes, the bullets are the same basic diameter. Note that this diameter varies slightly even within either cartridge, and handloaders often play with the diameter and bullet shape and hardness to affect accuracy in these calibers. However, even with the bullets at the same diameter, the cartridges are vastly different lengths. In general, the firearms at the time made for the .38 Special could not fit a .357 Magnum in their chamber, so there was no danger of anyone mistakingly using the higher pressure cartridge in their .38 Special. This is still generally true today, but it is always highly recommended to check the markings on the firearm and any available documentation and ensure that the right ammo is being used in any firearm. The .38 Special kept the “38” of the Long Colt, but the bullet it uses is nominally .357” in diameter. Keith, et al, went with the actual caliber and not the historical cap-and-ball method of naming them through the heeled bullet era into the turn of the century. In essence, S&W stuck with the “38” to make it clear to everyone that their stretched bullet was intended to replace the older “38” applications. Keith and company invented the .357 Magnum, so they got to name it, and went with the newer method.
@maximilianmustermann5763 357 is the same diameter as 38 special, however 38 special is actually a 0.357in diameter bullet. The name 38 comes from the old 0.375 diameter heeled bullets used in.38 short colt, which were eventually switched out for non heeled 0.357 diameter bullets. .38 special was based on .38 short colt or one of its descendants, I don't remember, but it got it's name from there.
Ian, you'll kick yourself around the five minute mark (5:00)... "This is full metal jacket", while pointing at the 'FMJ' initial on MagTech ammo box. Followed immediately by, "This is also full metal jacket, although it doesn't say it on there" I giggle just a little, having made the same type of grossly obvious mistake. Box in question, initials 'FMJ' at only double the size of all the other writing on said box.
At the very least, 9mm makarov adjusted case dimensions to make it not tapered which lets it feed in magazines a bit easier, which might have been the real reason why they went to 9.2mm
So that's what the "rimmed, rimless, and semi-rimmed" thing means. I figured it had to do with the rim thing on the back, but was always confused when rimless had what looks like a rim (just within the diameter of the cartridge).
There has to be something for the extractor to catch, right? Rimmed cartridges are better for revolvers - otherwise you need some moon lip-like contraption to keep cartridges from falling into the cyllinder and allow extraction. And the opposite goes for pistol (and rifle) magazines. Rimmed cartridges don't stack in stick mags as well as rimless, and may jam. Rimmed cases have and extruding flange, hence their name. Meanwhile, rimless cartridges have a groove (recess) near the base for the extractor to catch. That's the sole difference.
Mind-blowing time: There's even another, this time the rim and the bolt face are SMALLER than the body of the case! Cartridges such as the .50GI, .50 Beowulf & the mightiest of blowbacks... The 20mm Oerlikon!
Rimmed cases have a rim significantly wider than the case body. Semi rimmed the rim is slightly wider. Rimless has a rim the same dia as the case with a grove for the extractor. Rebated means the rim is narrower than the case diameter.
I know 9x39 basically doesn't exist outside of Russian special forces but I still would have been interested in hearing about it in this video. Especially considering how unique the guns chambered in 9x39 are
I have a broomhandle 9mm Export that I've been able to reload for. First I take a 9mm Magnum brass and cut it down to size then I clean it up and reload it. I've been working up loads on it with FMJ tops, but originally that cartridge had steel tops. It's fun to be able to work my broomhandle. BTW bro, thanks for the "Low Down" on the 9mm. I did a lot of research when I was working on my export as it got a bit daunting with all the different 9's cartridges and uses. Thank for putting it all together.
I was sitting at home, drinking my tea and watching this - nodding along, as you do - and I suddenly realised... I am a huge nerd! LOL As usual, fantastically informative video, thank you Mr. M. (I now think of you as being like an MI6 boffin, like 'Q'!) :)
Anyone looking for some point of reference for how powerful 9mm Mauser Export was should note that certain loadings of .357 Sig match the ballistics of it almost exactly. Having shot a .357 Sig, I question if it was really the cartridge having too much recoil or if it was the design and shape of the C96 that exaggerated the recoil
It’s interesting to me that you noted the 9x25 Dillon, but did not mention the 357 Sig. 9x25 Dillon is effectively a 10mm Auto necked down to 9mm, while 357 Sig is essentially a .40 S&W necked down to 9mm* 357 Sig has seen some off and on use in law enforcement world, kind of filling the same niche that 40 S&W was designed to fill for those end users. And I suppose like 40 S&W is dying a slow protracted death as people realize that the promise of “the power of 45ACP with the capacity of 9mm” really means “less capacity than a 9mm without a tangible benefit to end ballistics and a lot more recoil/ noise”. *not really but kind of. While most 9x25 shooter do often start with 10mm brass and neck it down, 40 S&W doesn’t quite resize correctly. Case head is still the same as 40 S&W though.
I have a 40 S&W, .357 Sig, and 9X25 Dillon barrel for my G29… all fun to shoot (including 10mm). I typically buy 500 - 1,000 rounds a year (before the beer curse of last year lol) and reload what I shoot. 9X25D is AWESOME, if you never shot one before. Doubletap and Underwood are the only two ammo manufacturers that I am aware of that carries 9X25D though.
If I ever were to get into firearms manufacture, I've always wondered about complicating the market even further by making a 9mm rifle cartridge just because.
I just had a conversation the other day with a friend and was trying to explain all the different 9mm rounds out there...i missed a few of these but thats why i love what Ian does, very informative, you actually learn something from him instead of him just doing mag dumps into random things....not that i dont also enjoy that lol
Interesting video! Speaking of cartridges, I think it would be very interesting to invite Maxim Popenker, to talk about the SP-4 (СП-4) cartridge, used in the PSS (ПСС) and the OTs-38 (ОЦ-38). A very interesting technical solution!
Among handgun rounds, the 9x25mm Dillon is hands down one of the most powerful 9mm rounds out there. I own a double-stack Delta Elite chambered for it.
I have a 9X25 Dillon barrel for my G29… I love making fireballs at dusk! I only set it up a couple times a year, but it is enjoyable to shoot… not much more recoil that a standard 10mm… I typically fire around 5,000 10mm a year (last two years, not so much). That and my .357 are my favorite plinkers.
9x25 Dillon is the most impractical of all rounds...however...sure is fun to shoot out of a G29. Now if I could find a barrel chambered for it to fit my G40; then it's useful. Fyi, caribou hunting
@@JD-tn5lz I hope you get this! Look up Bar Sto barrels. I think they have them for G40’s also. The major issue is Doubletap and Underwood are the only two commercial companies to provide ammo. It’s not cheap either. I only shoot between 20-40 rounds a year… usually at dusk for the fireball.
"I carry a 9mm glock" "oh yeah? I heard 9mm parabellum is great for conceal carry" "9x19? Not enough stopping power, I carry 9x25mm so I wouldn't have to shoot twice"
It would definitely fire but it wouldn't be able to engage the rifling. it would end up leaving the muzzle at a relatively low velocity and without any spin meaning that it would be inaccurate and it wouldn't hit as hard. If you were particularly unlucky there is the chance that it could impact the rifling of the pistol and damage it but that is fairly unlikely.
I’ve seen it happen with 7,63 Mauser in a 9mm C96, basically same thing. Badly damaged case, zero accuracy, enormous loss of velocity and maybe even case stuck in the chamber. No permanent damage at all. A bullet bigger than the barrel would be much worse
It will fire, but gases will go out from the muzzle, because bullet does not seal the barrel due to smaller diameter and it will tumble in the barrel, so the bullet is able to leave the barrel, but nothing much more than that
Few people know that there’s that many 9 mm I knew most of them but you pointed out some that I never heard of great video thank you so much once again
I size my cast lead 9mm bullets to .356 - .358 depending on the pistol some have big barrels! 38/357mag are definitely 9mm! & 357 sig! Most 9mm luger / parabellam jacketed bullets are .355 but I've got a few jacketed bullets (Hornady h.a.p hollow points) that were .356 just like Berry's copper plated bullets and cast lead
The Russians have always been defensive with their infrastructure to prevent intrusion into their territory since the Napoleonic era, hence their railways are a different width (RUS/USSR: use wider railroads 1520mm; EU and 60% of other western-ish countries use 1435mm) and their ammuniton is a different calliber (also look at: Warsaw pact).
The Russian 5ft rail gauge was not chosen for any military reason, that’s a common misconception. Especially because you can just narrow the railway very easily by pulling the spikes and moving the rail itself over. When the Russians built their first railway there was no “Standard” width of railway. The first railway, the British Great Western railway used 7ft wide tracks, however many other widths were used since railways weren’t usually interconnected then. The standard gauge of 4’8 1/2” was adopted because of the success of the locomotives designed by Robert Stephenson, who chose that width because that was the width carriage wheels were, and he could use the existing tools and jigs. When the Russians wanted to build their first railway, the only countries with extensive rail networks were Great Britain and the United States. Both of which had many 6ft and 7ft networks. The Russians originally wanted a 6ft network, but 5ft was cheaper to build, so that’s what they built.
@@nicholai1008 yes but many countries chainged to a common standard later on for ease of transport and NATO (we were doing the same thing). But the soviets never did since they were still in a cold war and on the side of the Warsaw pact.
@@sizifuss4751 Rail gauge isn’t standardized in NATO nor was it in the Warsaw Pact. Portugal and Spain used broad gauge, and most of the WP used standard (1435mm) gauge. It’s almost trivially easy to narrow track. It is however, substantially more difficult to narrow the axles of every single carriage, wagon, and locomotive in the entire national pool. This is the reason the USSR maintained a 5ft gauge. There is no appreciable military advantage to using wider tracks. The only way to effectively deny use of rail infrastructure is to destroy it, especially bridges and yards. The Soviets did this during WWII, because they knew that the Nazis would narrow the track. Which is exactly what the Nazis did. The US measures in miles for their road infrastructure, but you wouldn’t say that’s to confuse potential invaders. Much like Russian gauge it’s simply a relic of the standards in place when it was built.
@@nicholai1008 in a war roads, bridges and trains are of strategic value. In defense you try to slow down enemy advancement by destroying infrastructure. But you cannot and should not destroy all of it as you might want to use it yourself. Railways on russian soil are on primarly flat terrain with not many bridges to destroy so the potential enemy can use them with their trains. But if they have to modify the trains or use captured ones to supply troops they are now on less favorable position. And who would have time in a war to narrow railways. I am not super aware that railway width is not standardised, but the fact is that not many countries have the industrial capibility to produce their own standard trains and nither want to as it complicates supply chains with alies and trade partners.
@@sizifuss4751 again, I think you’re overestimating the effort that it takes to narrow tracks. Literally all you have to do is pull four spikes, move the rail over three and a half inches, and drive the spikes back in. Railways adjust track all the time, so this really isn’t that much of a problem. As for who has the time to do this, there are two examples I can think of off the top of my head. The first are the Nazi Railway Commandos (Eisenbahnpioniere). Their job was to secure and repair track in the Soviet Union. This included narrowing it and reinforcing it so that Reichbahn trains could use it. The second example is during the American civil war. The Confederate States had substantial infrastructure that was 5ft gauge (Russian railways are based on these), the Northern States used standard gauge. The North created the United States Military Railroad, to operate trains and rebuild and re-gauge track.
I was sad that you didn't mention the PP Super when talking about 9x18 Ultra. I used to have one and it was a really neat gun, even though the magazines cost more than my monthly car payment.
Type 26 Japanese revolver used a 9mm rimmed. I think you may know that though. I have heard that the 9mm Makarov was designed to fire the absolute largest cartridge that could function through a blowback automatic.
The .356 TSW was worth an honorable mention. I shot IPSC in the early '90s and purchased one of the .356 TSW guns for IPSC competition. Really a nice gun to shoot. I purchased a couple thousand rounds of ammo and saved my cases for reloading as I used to shoot several hundred rounds a week back then. Interestingly when I chronographed the 124 gr hollow point ammo I had purchased for the gun it ran quite a bit slower than the 124 gr FMJ ammo. I called Federal and they said it was to keep the bullets from fragmenting in flight :eek. Typically loaded the 147 gr TMJ for competition use - really knocked down the steel poppers.
Not only did we chuckle at guys who would come in and say, "Give me a box of Nine!" when I was a Junior Merchant of Death (tm), but I even saw a guy bring in a piece for consignment that came with a loaded magaizne that had no less than *three* different flavors of 9mm in the magazine - 9x19mm, 9x18mm (Makarov), and 9x17mm. Which was hilarious, being it was a rather worn 9x23mm Largo caliber Spanish 1911 looking pistol (I don't recall the exact model), and it didn't have Largo ammo.
I've heard this goddamned stories so many times, right down to the "Junior Merchant of Death." It wasn't you. So, I'd suggest you stop claiming Trademark rights (When that would be Copyright) over actual arms dealers. Chances are, they won't find out about it, or do anything about it, but still. We're talking about just about as insanely stupid as trying to load 9mm Makarov in a 9mm Largo. (Or Tokarev in a Mauser, which I have actually seen.)
AFAIK (Admitting my own ignorance) the story comes from a later 80s article in Soldier of Fortune magazine, and it was a picture of a drawstring bag, from Afghanistan. Since it was published in an actual Magazine, and "Jr Merchant of Death" wasn't used, it is officially copywritten, by Soldier of Fortune Magazine. (Sorry, I don't have the exact year, and issue to cite here, in the comments on youtube.) I'm guessing that's not the Magazine you're talking about, though.
@@Psiberzerker Yes, they will fit, just fine. Matter of fact, after reading your reply, I went and tested the fact (albeit not in a 9mm Largo magazine, since I don't own anything in that caliber). Had exactly zero issues loading 9x18mm Makarov in two different models of .380 magazines (Ruger LCP and Beretta 85) and multiple 9x19mm magazines (Sig P250, Sig SP2022, Glock G19, Springfield XD, GP35, Beretta 92, and Sten). Exactly zero issues encountered with any of these. Also, I have been telling this story AND using that humorous tag line (complete with the sarcastic (tm) tag) on the internet since the late 1990s. So it's entirely possible you've run across it from *me* in the first place. So, "Lighten up, Francis."
@@Psiberzerker Heh, and a later comment downthread also reminded me of a factual error on your part, that can be independently verified without having personal access to 9x18mm Makarov ammunition and a variety of 9mm "Other" magazines... The CZ82 (9x18mm Makarov) and CZ83 (.380ACP, AKA 9x17mm) *use the same magazine* .
@@geodkyt I don´t own any firearm. Mechanical his first sentence makes no sence and got me confused. You would need to give the bullet some room to move reliable in the Magazine, not to metion double stack Magazines. Thanks for your test
Actually, there's NOT such a thing as .38" cal.!!! I'ts ACTUALLY a .357" cal. (9mm), wich, with the change from black powder, to modern nitro-cellulosis propellents, they , to avoid confusion, called the the "new" cal. the ".38", to avoid confusion with the ORIGINAL black powder .36"cal.!!!
So one of my favorite games to play is smite, and so when you said “9mm parabellum” i immediately connected that to the roman goddess of war Bellona who screams “PARABELLUM” when using her ultimate. Like it was instant connection in my brain, which is neat how the human brain works
I understand the "gun jesus" references and whatever but the kind of knowledge conveyed on this type of vid is something of value to all kind of unborn descendants. You're a treasure, Mr McCollum. Thank you.
For any who may not know largo means long in Spanish "9mm largo" is just as you may be expecting "9mm long" or "long 9mm" PD: I know that most definitely someone has said something like the message that I have sent but I just wanted to share the information
I have a Llama "Extra" in 9mm Largo and have had a Destroyer (wish I never sold that) and had the opportunity to stock up on that (cheaply) 10 or so years ago... Very happy I did that.. Great shooter and historical touchpoint.. Great video as always!
@@Hidalguense The late production ones (1970s, 1980s) are probably strong enough to handle it, but I wouldn't put .38 super through some early 9mm largo pistol.
@@dmytro732 I met a guy that worked with the original owner of interarms of Virginia. I ask him if was ok to shoot 38 super in the star pistols and he said no problem. I had been doing it for year before I met him. Now he is the owner of interarms Texas here in Houston.
The ones I missed were 9x23SR / 38super and 9mm Winchester Magnum and also 357Sig as they are 0.355 / 0.356 but not 0.357 / 0.358 as 38Special and 357Magnum which I do not know if you made a video on? but if you do at .38, I hope you also mention 38 / 45Clerke and I find it interesting all types that are necked from a larger cartridge. Like 22TCM and .224Boz but I hope you make a video about different types of gunpowder and both slower and faster that have made progress when different cartridges have been developed
Brazil has that "prohibited use of military cartridges" bullshit since the Second half of the 1980's decade...the last president (2019-2022) took that down...but the actual president(2023-2026) brought that stupid crap back!😔
@@kylebradley3 I understand. I have people look for uncommon stuff every once in a while. The problem I have is that I have a gun range and the uncommon stuff never sells. I always show them websites where they can find what they need.
@@muhammadnursyahmi9440 nice, I haven't had the honor to visit your country yet, although I have lived in Indonesia for many years. Hope to visit soon one post covid travel is easier
Interesting and informative video as always Ian. Although I will say that I am surprised you omitted the .357 SIG cartridge which uses a necked down 10mm auto case. That said, I think the fact that it uses said necked down 10mm auto case with a lager case head may have just answered my question. Regardless, I would like to ask you whether or not you consider .357 SIG in the category of 9mm, 10mm (because of case head), or a wildcat cartridge like 9x25 Dillon?
Here in Italy the 9mm parabellum is illegal for the civilian market because, being used by the army and police, is qualified as "ammunition for war" (I'm not even joking, that's the legal nomenclature). That's why many 9mm pistols on the market are either 9mm short or 9x21mm IMI, which is ballistically pretty much identical to the 9mm, so... 🤷♂️ TBF some years ago a guy won a court appeal claiming 9mm para could not be considered an "ammunition for war" based on it's power; but the law still hasn't changed.
In my 50 years of reloading there have been several occasions to reload a 9mmMak thinking it to be standard 9x19. Since the case was resized it could become elongated and actually fire. The sound and recoil let you know something was wrong. Two others fell to far into the chamber and the firing pin would leave a small mark on the primer which did not fire.
@@igoranisimov6549 I trim once fired 9mm luger brass down to .700, re-size using a 9x 18 reloading die, then build loads with .363 cal bullets. It is perfectly feasible to do this but I would recommend a 90% max powder load (or +P .380 load) for first firing as the luger case will expand slightly to fill the 9 Mak bore.
You can actually drop a 9×19 luger/paraballum into a Makarov, and it will fire & eject. But it won't feed from the magazine. The projectile nose is too long.
"Who are you?"
"I'm 9mm."
"Do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down?"
At least, narrower than "I'm 7.62mm" - it can be anything from pistol to anti-tank rifle ammo.
Yo I had that same though
@@Sudno I figure 7.62/.30 is the most commonly used size for conventional ammo.
@@Sudno I think you're talking about 7.92 BRNO for the anti tank part. Still a monster of a round for such a small caliber
@@Sudno But 7.62 is physically narrower than 9mm.
As a novice in firearms and firearm history, these educational episodes that focus on a larger theme than single weapon are my favorites. They are filled with super-interesting information in one place. I had no idea so many 9mm types exist! Can you do this for the caliber ".30" because there's .3030, .303, 30-06, and others that I do I'd really like to learn about.
I’ve been around firearms since I was a child growing up in the US and moving to the UK. I didn’t even know about all the various 9mm rounds until like a year ago. That’s why I love anything to do with firearms, there is so much to learn and new interests to find! The best community in the entire world 🙌🏼
Is love to see a 7.62mm/30 caliber comparison video, but it would be a nightmare, since there are so many varieties.
I'll get started on a list and update this comment later
Same here, I would love to see more videos on the development of different types of ammunition families, I guess it goes without saying but John Browning sure was an inventive fella
One problem with the .30 cal would be all the "well known facts" around it that are actually misleading, misinformed, or downright untrue.
For instance, it is "well known" a .303 British (Lee Enfield...) or 7.62x54R (Mosin...) barrel will NOT stabilize a .308" bullet. "Of course", your bullet will end up tumbling the second it exits the barrel, and worse, your gun is "likely'" to blow up because the smaller bullet will induce higher pressures.
Well, the first part is only true for well-worn barrels with poor tolerances. I have 2 Mosins and 1 N°4, and they shoot 147 grs .308" just fine. As for the second part, it's utter nonsense. Even if the 0.1mm of diameter difference mattered for a lead bullet in a steel barrel (it doesn't), how the hell is a smaller bullet (that will allegedly tumble down the barrel, remember) supposed to plug the barrel BETTER?
Ian doing a video on .30 would be longer than the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy uncut director's edition.
"This is also FMJ even though it doesn't say it."
Me looking at the giant FMJ written on the box right where he's pointing... 🙃
Lmao i saw that too
If it's written too big, you can't notice it. :D
@@Njazmo yeah if it's too big, your brain assumes it's a brand logo, and therefore skips it as useless information.
Can’t see the wood for the trees as the saying goes. 🤣😂 Another excellent educational video Ian, thanks.
Hidden in plain sight! lol
“This is also full metal jacket, although it doesn’t say it on there” says Ian, with his thumb next to the massive FMJ!
Came down here to comment this lmao
@@zrspangle same lol
timestamp is 5:08
Right? I thought i was tripping, i had to rewatch it a couple times
He is a master troll
I think he was looking among the small text because I almost didn't see it either. 😂
9x39mm is another to add to the list. Essentially a 7.62x39 cartridge necked up to 9mm. The goal was to create a sub-sonic round with the same muzzle energy as the 5.45x39 for use in suppressed rifles such as the AS Val, VSS Vintorez, 9a-91 and their derivatives .
Ian had discussed about this with Max Popenker in a previous interview.
ruclips.net/video/vkprsBoImRg/видео.html
Cool round and gun. Insanely quiet too
I fired an AS VAL a couple years ago. It was quite quiet.
@@kirchgoens where did u shoot one
@@yeetergriffin1586 I was overseas and got my hands on one for a day. What I recall was that the barrel was shorter than it appeared, cased in the integral suppressor (which could be removed as part of field stripping). It was 6-7 years ago, so some details are fuzzy in my memory.
"this is actually french ammunition."
yes, we know ian. its your ammo, all ammo you own slowly turns french.
They all succum to Ian's Frenchinizing Touch
Did someone say they had 7mm French long?!
like jesus turning water into wine
Tru dat
"I can" Turn WINE ino water? @@roempoetliar7995
5:08 - The folks at S&B tried *so* hard to advertise it is a FMJ bullet, but using the single largest font on the box end and placing it at the usual start-point for reading (top left) to be first-read just wasn't enough :)
Hahaha was looking for this comment after seeing the vid
Lol I saw it too
@@justthesmitty Me too! :)
I hate to poke at Ian over that because I do that a lot too. I read the "specifications/datasheet" side and miss the big print or info in a different font. I did notice it here, but well after he had already sat the box down.
Tbf I think it does the nice function of being the only readable font at a distance (say behind the counter on a shelf).
Sorta turns into an obvious thing so obvious you ignore it up close but can't help but see it from 10ft away
Aka "I'm also guilty of this."
That 9mm "confusion" got some people in trouble here in Brazil some time ago, because 9mm luger was basically prohibited to civilians and some CZ 82 marked "9mm short" owners were arrested for posetion of a restricted firearm
That's 😔.....
Wow, how did I not know this happened?
Standard government incompetence in action.
Ye, it socks cara
I have seen 9×21mm IMI cartridge that was introduced for civilian market. It has the same charge, bullet, and overall length as 9×19mm Luger. The only difference is the case length, extra 2mm. The idea was that it could not be used with any NATO 9mm pistol. I think it was used in Beretta 98FS. However, it is not the same as one of the soviet 9×21mm with more charge and armor piercing bullet. (Actually he was talking about it at the end)
Here in Russia we’ve another story about 9x18. After the WW2 there was a lot of German pistols in Soviet Union, that was taken there by soldiers as trophies and souvenirs. And the engineers had to design a 9mm cartridge, that is not compatible with German pistols (which were in 9mm Para), so nobody could use their trophy Lugers and Walters (the biggest concern was that a criminal can somehow get his hands on pistol ammo)
... because the only criminal who was allowed to have weapons was Stalin and his state
Sounds about right most authoritarian dictatorships want an unarmed population. Taking everyone’s trophies would anger people and be politically disastrous so the best way to do that would be just make a pistol with a new cartridge that isn’t used by those trophies
that remainds me that time the Soviet union tried banning every music from outside, including the bettles
This is why I always tell people not to simply use the diameter of the cartridge. The amount of times I've asked someone what kind of gun they have and they say "7mm" is honestly infuriating. There's 7mm-08, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm Mauser, 7mm Spanish Mauser, 7mm Argentine Mauser, 7mm Luger, and probably a dozen more 7mm cartridges I don't even know about. Or when they say "7.62". 7.62x38, 7.62x54, 7.62x25, 7.62x39, 7.62x51, and again, probably more I don't know about
7.62x63 (30-06) technically counts
7x41 Lantan, for the first list. Special polish round
I believe there is a 7.62 tokarev or spelled different .
@@Airon79 the tokarev is 7.62x25
@@benjadryl_7393 Thanks for responding .
There is also a relatively new Russian 9x21 that aimed getting higher power handgun cartridge. It is not widely used but there are few interesting handguns made for it.
And also a 9x39 subsonic used by special forces but that's whole another type of ammo
ruclips.net/video/pMGq2hFTnvM/видео.html
@@ForgottenWeapons oh, I missed this episode somehow. Popenker is an interesting guest. Thank you for having him.
@@ForgottenWeapons Max Popenker actually mentioned why 9x18 Makarov is 9.2 in this video.
@@ForgottenWeapons
Any idea when the avtomat book and dr. shush come out? Next year?
The 9x39 is SP-5 / 6 Is the only ones that I know
So many 9's so little time
😁😅🤣
Solution: glock 18
@@tomwilliams8675 000000
Ayo?
9x99 when
Shame that the Hungarian law doesn't allow private citizens to transport defused munitions abroad, even with the right paperwork, otherwise I could more than happily send a 9 mm (9×25)Mauser cartridge to you.
How does it compare to 9x25 Dillon?
ahhh of course Hungary because of the Danuvia submachine gun. Very cool weapon and one of my fav guns.
Its a shame that the rest of europe has such strict gun laws.
@@kaksidaksi3455 Czechs....
@@jdm1066 There's no comparison between them. The 9x25 Mauser was a good round but the 9x25 Dillon is a pure monster. The 9x25 Dillon is a bottleneck round.
The base and rim diameter of a 9x25 Dillon is higher than the 9x25 Mauser.
The 9x25 Mauser can propel a 123 gr projectile at a maximum velocity of 1362 fps, while the 9x25 Dillon can propel a 147 gr projectile at 1495 fps.
There are lighter 125 gr and 95 gr Dillon projectiles out there which attain even higher velocities.
I always understood the "designed not to be used in enemy weapons" thing to be bogus fuddlore, with the real reason for the bullet diameter differences lying in a simple difference of caliber measurement methods (Western being land-to-land, Soviet being groove-to-groove)
... but the Winter War thing makes the fuddlore make more sense. Then I also remembered that German 7.63 Mauser can be fired from captured 7.62 Tokarev weapons, eg the PPSh and PPS submachine guns, and suddenly designing your ammunition so it can't be used in enemy weapons makes even more sense.
Whenever I’ve read accounts of Germans using the Ppsh, it’s always noted they could use 7.63 Mauser. Was it even that common in German use by 1942?
I would love to see some documentation on this point. If it really had been a concern of the Soviets, we would expect to see this reflected in their internal reports. I've never heard of any that address the issue of bullet diameter and incompatibility with Western weapons. Pistols have marginal military importance anyway. If faced with a Western invasion of their territory, the Soviets would have had much bigger things to worry about than the invaders being able to use captured stocks of pistol ammunition.
Agreed. Apart for reverse: West measures groove to groove (that is why western "9mm gun" bullet is exactly 9mm) and Russians measure land to land (that is why russian "9mm gun" bullet is bigger to fit into groves).
I hear these blow the lungs out of your body
Also quick tip, if you're ever shooting an odd ball 9mm at a range where theres lots of 9x19 brass on the ground, lay down a tarp and have a brass spotter. Because when your hard to find, has to be hand loaded brass gets lost in amongst the the rabble, it's gone forever.
my ranges your brass hits the floor it aint yours. No time for people picking brass it all gets swept up.
Im glad I dont go to your range
@@richardfitzwell6579 Same here
@@pbgd3 I have a friend stand next me with a net lol.
Never heard of a range that doesn't let you pick up your brass if you want, even if most people don't bother I reload my own, good thing is my buddy owns a gunshop so I've got an arrangement to buy their floor brass cheap, so I just take the lot and pay one of my kids to sort it. I bet your range is selling it. 🤣
@@stevepalpatine2828 tons of folks use brass catchers or similar.
The range just had do many issues with people delaying shooting to mess with brass so if it hits the floor the brass is swept up and there is a deal with a company that cleans sorts sizes and deprimes.
If you want to keep it off the floor and keep it then you need to make sure it doesnt eject forwards onto the range because you do not get to retrieve.
Range officer is required to keep the floor clear of loose brass
Years ago I picked up a Spanish Destroyer carbine, it is 9mm Largo and was issued to the police. It is kind of a mini Mauser but only has the bolt stem as the locking lug (bought it primarily because it was about $175 and came with an unopened case of 1000 rounds of surplus ammo), So much fun for plinking I latter got a Star Modelo A (1911 clone) in the same 9mm Largo but also marked for 38 Super. Both work great.
The Spanish Destroyer carbine is a neat little rifle in an unfortunate cartridge. You _can_ get it rechambered in 9x19, but I don't think it's worth the cost. Unfortunately the build quality in them varies wildly since many were made in essentially a variety of garages in Eibar Spain. The fit of the bolt in the receiver varies, as does the quality of the steel. Otherwise they're a handy little carbine. Note that you can use regular 9mm parabellum dies to load for it, and brass is available from Starline. I generally load mine subsonic because then it's fairly quiet (although not quiet enough to forgo hearing protection.) Not the most accurate plinker in the world but fun as an inexpensive big bore. Personally I would be reluctant to shoot 38 Super in the thing. I'm not confident at the strength of those locking lugs.
I shot a Star Modelo A. The trigger was ass
A couple years ago I bought a Star Modelo B and for a minute before I could research it I thought it might take Largo, but soon learned that's the Modelo A. I am glad I bought it when I did. According to the one's for sale that I have seen lately the price has gone up (like almost everything else).
This comment hurts my fucking soul. I'd be thrilled with 1000 rounds for $175 even without the gun
@@teamcybr8375 Well in this case you'd need the gun as well, unless you already had an Astra or Star chambered for 9 Largo.
I was working in a sporting goods store and had to explain how 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, and 9x19 are the same. I would get the funniest looks.
When I introduce people to firearms, I have to warn them that cartridge names are not super accurate. 38 special is similar in power to 9x19, but much bigger is size. 357 Magnum is much more powerful than 38 Special. Etc.
@@con6lex 38-40 is a 40 cal, 38 Special is .357 while 38-55 is .381...the 219 Donaldson Wasp, 220 Swift, 221 Remington Fireball, 222 Magnum, 223 Remington , 224 Weatherby Magnum and 225 Winchester ALL use .224 diameter projectiles... lol.... Never ending fun!
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz 9mm Luger is for your Luger, 9mm parabellum is for when you're going to war, 9x19 is for when you've got a ruler, 9mm NATO is for annoying the French, 9mm OTAN is for annoying everyone else.
0:10 I thought he was jokingly ending the video because he already demonstrated that it is indeed 9mm.
"Comrade, we need submachine gun."
"No need, comrade, have Kalashnikov."
"Comrade, we need sniper rifle."
"No need, comrade, have Kalashnikov."
Same with a machinegun
@@tedarcher9120 and a shotgun
It’s amazing that the 9mm parabellum hit the sweet spot so early. It was the first 9mm cartridge, and still the last one standing.
Most common cartridge in current Germany is blank cartridge 9mm Pak.
@@lostalone9320 it's basically the most bang for the size and comfortably fits into lots of grip designs/sizes. What's not to like xD
@@lostalone9320 “path dependence “
@@lostalone9320 that's a good answer.
@@lostalone9320 Wide adoption certainly helped the 9x19mm's success, but even in a vacuum the round really is a good design that balances power, control, and capacity at a point that just works super well for a lot of people. Design choices like a flexible case length-to-OAL ratio, relatively high working pressures compared to its contemporaries, using a rimless case and headspacing on the mouth instead, and committing to a power level above what blowback designs could easily handle; all of that turned out to be right in line with how gun designs would evolve over the years. And improvements in bullet technology really gave it a great performance boost in more recent decades.
As someone that doesn’t know much about firearms in general, and pretty much watches Gun Jesus for the history stories, this adds another layer to which I want and need to learn. All those 9mm variations are confusing.
Don’t feel bad man. Most “gun guys” couldn’t name more than one or two of the cartridges in the thumbnail. Most only know 9x19
Yeah dont feel bad. Was only familiar with 3 of those cartridges. 9mm Para, 380 ACP and 9mm Largo.
Didn't realize that 9mm Makarov was actually 9.2mm, until Ian shared that bit of info.
At least you're not trying to banish firearms from the face of the earth like other people who don't know much about them (btw I don't think there's many people who know as much as Ian)
Dont worry, here i was thinking i knew lots about the firearms.. sure i know the guns pretty well though there is still plenty i have never heard about but ou boy when we go to ammunition just the different calibers alone are overwhelming let alone things like what ammo works with what guns, for instance i just recently learned that you can fire 7.62x53R from 54R rifle no issues, but on other way around you must be able to easily close the bolt or whole thing might blow up. Then there are the ammo type differences and weights of different bullets, differences between primers and top of all that there is manufacturer tolerance differences, wear on the guns and such things... For most people that is not issue, just get to store and buy ammo that fits to your gun and stay with it, but to find best possible result and avoid the worst.. dear god that it lots of knowledge... And of course you need to filter all the miss information from the info you find, like "222 or 223 can shoot 300 blackout just fine, try it" NO dont, that caliber for some mystical reason fits to magazine and chamber, but it will definitely blow the rifle on your face..
Good stuff! I’d happily watch this for all sorts of calibers. It would be interesting to see ammunition grouped and compared by other measures, like muzzle velocity or projectile weight. I’m not sure how far we are getting from “forgotten” but it’s pretty clear that’s a heuristic, not a firm rule, and I entirely agree with the utility of that approach.
Pick up an edition of Frank Barnes “Cartidges of the World.” Great reference source for stuff like this.
Wow, I never knew the 9mm had such a rich history and variety. Thank you for a great video.
Those are just 9mm pistol rounds... there is also 9x39 ...
And another 9mm pistol round is 9x21 Gruzyia or whatever it's spelled
For the newbies: 1 Grain is approximately 64.79mg. It's quite a lot of energy moving down range.
Stay safe!
7000 grains= 1 pound
American measuring units continue to amaze the world😂
@@hschan5976 Actually it was the british that came up with that shit, america just stuck with it for some reason.
@@prizrak-br3332the us has tried to switch and is de facto mixed in metric and imperial units.
@@prizrak-br3332 because they are stuck in colonial times
Well, the Soviet Union did decide to make its main mortars in 82mm for the reason you give for the larger bullet diameter if the 9mm Makarov. Everyone else had 81mm, so captured ammunition FROM the Soviets couldn't be used against them, but the reverse didn't hold. It is possible to fire an 81mm round from an 82mm mortar, all be it with a reduced range.
Mortar shells were a thing, but the real reason for 9mm PM to suddenly be 9.2 is a different one
It's actually happened because of a difference in caliber measuring methods between countries. In USA and most of the NATO countries a caliber is measured as a distance between opposing bottoms of grooves, while in Rusian Empire-USSR-Russia - by opposing _lands_ of grooves, and cuz a bullet diameter is bigger than that distance in order for grooves to cut into the bullet's jacket - that makes all russian actual bullet diameters slightly bigger than declared gun calibers
It was a thing for 1891 Mosin 7.62x54r, so you can't blame soviets trying to deny enemy use of our ammo (not to mention that caliber is not the only cartridge dimension)
Albeit* That's very interesting
The soviets are pretty smart now that I think about it
But still you could just adopt their cartridges
@@yoboikamil525 Always has been)
"Is 9mm a big cartridge?"
"Depends on context. 9x19? No. 9x39? Yes"
I'll see your 9x39 and raise you a 9x57 Mauser!
@@andrewromig9753 I'll see your 9x57 Mauser and raise you 9.3x74R!
@@the_senate8050 That's cheating! :P
@@andrewromig9753 Still rounds to 9mm ;)
*laughs in 9x51mm SMAW*
The 9x23mm is also a fully rimless case, basically an improvement on .38 Super (A semi-rimmed case based on .38 Browning Long/ACP) Ironically, .38 Super is still around, and 9x23mm is slowly dying out.
We have to keep 38 super alive.
It looks like 9x23 is slightly longer (~0.5mm) than 38 super, and since 38 super went fully rimless eventually, I suppose there just wasn't enough incentive to alter firearms that were already chamber for the 38.
@@Ashcrash82 That, and it was also an extremely narrow niche round, that had no appreciable advantage in competition over the firmly established round (.38 Super.) Basically, nobody really wanted to rechamber their .38 Super guns in 9mm Super, and spend the money on the more expensive round, when .38 super already does the job, well, and you can actually get it.
Well the 9x23 Winchester is also loaded to higher factory pressure than .38 Super. There’s also .38 Super Comp which is the rimless version of .38 Super. And .38 TJ which is essentially the same as Super Comp. There’s actually a ridiculous number of only slightly different cartridges around that “9mm Major” threshold for competition shooting.
@@sethrich5998 Yep, from what I hear, it shot flatter too, but not enough to get new sites, new barrels, and new ammo, at the ranges that IPSC generally sets their targets up (Well under 100 yards/meters) It was basically too much money to spend on minimal returns. Also, the fact that they were both called .38 Super, and 9mm Super, while not quite being interchangeable was potentially confusing.
"This is actually FRENCH ammunition..." as literally nobody is surprised that Ian has French 9mm Luger.
Hi. Good stuff!
Not an elephant in the room - .357 Sig , pistol cartridge in origin, 9mm bullet diameter. Should it fit here?
No. No more than the .38 Super or .38/.45 Bain & Davis.
You mention that the 9mm Winchester Magnum was developed for the Automag pistol. I believe it and the 45 Winchester Magnum were developed for the Wildey, not the Automag. Although the 9mm Winchester Magnum was later chambered in the Automag III.
There was a .357" automag cartridge initially, but it was a bottleneck and you more or less had to make your own. So the 9mm win mag would have been slightly more attractive _once it was available,_ but it wasn't around for the first automag pistols. Other bottleneck .357" pistol cartridges were available, which is why Ian is keeping out of this rabbit hole. edit, added a bit. You are quite right about the Wildey: it used to say this in Cartridges of the World when Frank Barnes was still with us.
9mm Win Mag was also in the LAR Grizzle Mag pistol
I believe you are correct, I have a bit of an interest in the Wildey and Auto Mag have collected a few images. In a scan of Guns & Ammo May 1979, there is a review of the Wildey by Howard E. French which includes one in 45 Win Mag and one in 9mm Win Mag. I haven't found any more current information on the 9mm Win Mag Wildey pistols so I'm not sure if they were ever put into production (or if they just had very low orders) but a picture in the scan shows it lined up with 15 rounds.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine All these things are good fun. But the ergonomics of the semi-autos are always going to be awkward when you need good ergonomics to handle the recoil. As Ian said of the Wildey when he shot a backup gun match with one "it's made of sharp edges and corners." Revolvers can be better. But I can see why two or four-barrel Howdah pistols existed. A modern Howdah might be the best solution for the very hot cartridges because it would eliminate frame-cutting and control setback. Would cost money to get the barrels regulated, though. I don't want anyone to go after a Cape Buffalo with a single-shot, pistol or rifle.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine I shot IMSHA in the 80's and flame cutting was definitely a problem on the Ruger 357 Max Blackhawks. I saw examples. Dan Wesson dealt with it by using a longer cylinder on their DA revolver.
Ruger used the same length cylinder as their 357 magnums cut deeper for the Max cartridge. You see the same thing happened with some 454 Casuul revolvers more recently. Ruger quickly withdrew their 357 Max from the market. If that is not a problem, I don't know how you would define problem.
Another great video, but don't forget the distinction between 9x21mm used in countries like Italy and Israel and the 9x21mm 'Gyurza' round developed by the Russians to be anti-body armor, with the capability of causing a substantial wound to an unarmored target. Definitely would love to see you hands on with weapons like the Russian SR-1 pistol and SR-2 Submachine gun that use this round!
Came to say the same thing.
Som useless trivia, The "swedish K" submachine gun used a 9x19 round known as m/39B. We had LOTS of this ammo in bunkers. In the 80´s we had the finnish Lahti pistol, but it was getting old. So the military started to look for a new pistol. The police already had the Sig 226, which the folks in boots hoped to get to. But alas, testing showed the Sig didnt handle the m39/B. That round had a slightly hotter load. In order to use up all the old ammo, we got the Glock 17, which handled the stored ammo. I didnt cry, carried the Glock for ages and was happy with it. This is not a new thing. When sweden got the FN Mag (m 240) in 58, they came with 6,5mm barrels. Not until all the old mauser ammo was spent did we get 7,62mm barrels for it. The beancounters!
I always thought it was a step backwards when Sweden switched from 6.5x55 to 7.62 NATO. Maybe not for machine guns, but for rifles anyway. Imagine a G3 in 6.5mm.
I wish more governments would be as thrifty as the Swedish instead of trying to spend our way into hyperinflation.
heh. when i did my service in the early 2000s i found a couple boxes of 6.5. so i guess the stores of 6.5 where huge
Thank you for this inventory of the 9mm cartridges.
As a French man, I'd like to add something about France laws about firearms. The 9x19mm is considered as sort of a war cartridge. We use categories to sort the types of weapons, and the use of this 9mm automatically puts any weapon shooting it at least in the B category, the same as an AR-15, for exemple. No matter the way the firearm operates, it will be at least a B cat, which is not the case for every cartridges.
Other cartridges are considered the same, i.e. 5,56x45, 7,62x39, 5,45x39, 7,62x51 (but ironically not .308 or 7,62x54R).
We also have weird laws about firearms, you Americans are not alone 🙂
.308 is basically the same as 7.62x51 so that's even weirder, ig maybe because .308's are favored for sporting rifles because of the very slightly hotter load france considers that more of a hunting or sporting round? although almost any battle rifle or lmg (that chambers x51) can handle taking .308's in place of them now, and theoretically .308's would have marginally better performance so i don't get why the technically weaker one would be banned, but not the other
@@ambi_cc8464 it's exactly what you wrote. .308 is considered as hunting cartridge and 7,62x51 as military. Gun laws are made by people who didn't ever shoot a gun, to reassure people who are afraid of guns.
On the web-site of Beretta several pistols are available both in 9*19 and 9*21 calibres. I expected that the 9*21 calibre was made especially for the French/Italian civilian market, as stated in the video.
Can one nowadays in France have a pistol in 9*19 calibre under the same conditions as (used to) apply to the 9*21 calibre pistol? Just asking for a griend … ;)
*friend
@@olde4eyes 9x19 is category B at least, no matter other considerations as length or action.
9x21 is not. So depending on the length and the action, it can be cat B or C.
Cat C is easier to get than cat B, but the two of them can be obtained for an adult with no background.
:( my boy the 9x22mmR Type 26 didn't get a shout out
I can listen to this stuff all day.
I love the period of 1890 to 1930 where it seems everyone was trying new things and there was just a riot of innovation unhindered by practical experience :)
And in the 40’s the Germans procrastinated and didn’t get a lot of their homework in on time. They had some good designs. MG 42 is still in use (some variant of it) today I think.
@@stinkmeaner3016 Yep, the MG3 is still used by the Bundeswehr today.
It was also largely because patents. You couldn't use the good ideas unless you wanted to pay for them, so most people just kept designing alternatives while they waited for the good patents to expire.
I have a simple solution to not having Finland using your own ammo against you; don't attack Finland.
Hank_Scorpio_Slapping_His_Forehead.gif
9mm is also great for hunting moose!
...9,3 × 62 mm that is.
So would the 350 legend fall in this category as 9x45, it is technically a 9mm straight walled rimless cartridge
Italy actually removed the restriction of 9x19 as a military caliber. This was during early 2021 if I remember correctly, though I am unsure if that was just the vote for it and if it is coming into effect later or if it is already in effect.
It has by the upper house in June this year. In fact an high court had already pointed out that the rationale for forbidding tbe 9mm luger was baseless, since it is no more powerful/letal that 9×21mm.
It isn't. It could be in effect in early 2022 if all goes well.
@@RandomUser-cx9kn hope that clears up for you guys, so you can own the classic Beretta 92!
False, it was presented the request to do so, the last month it passed the Senate and now it's going to be debated in the Chamber. Probably it's going to pass but we don't know until 2022
@@ScottKenny1978 They just modify the chamber to get 2mm more of space and they are already sold to the public
I never realized 9mm Makarov and 9mm Ultra are slightly different. I have a commercial Makarov pistol I bought many years ago and I’ve been shooting 9mm Ultra through it all this time. Probably a good thing I wasn’t trying to shoot the larger ammo through the smaller bore gun!
Woops, people have been known to fire .380 from the Mak as well
@@snek9353 probably because there's maks chambered in .380 as well
Why, 9mm Ultra is much more expensive. And because of the smaller diameter it must be very inaccurate .
Those lousy commies thought they were being slick.
@@Gieszkanne .223 is smaller than 5.56, and theres almost no accuracy issues with it in guns that are popular to use both cartridges interchangeably in, like an ar15
5:05 "This… is also full metal jacket, although it doesn't say it on there." - the box literally has "FMJ" in large letters in the upper left corner. Sorry, Ian, but opportunities to correct you on anything are rare, so it's good to relish them. 😆
FMJ
9mm Super Cooper... Guns & Ammo, December 1973... Sometimes called .38 Super Cooper... With a 125 gr bullet, he was getting around 1750 fps -- 850 ft-lbs... I converted a double stack M1911 to it a couple of years ago... Use a .38 Super barrel with a recoil spring a couple of pounds heavier... Take .223 brass, cut it down to 23 mm... Resize the brass with the .38 Super dies, using the shell plate for the .223 cartridges...
An open enemy is better than a hollow friend.
Couple of years ago I went to the local authorities to get my paperwork ready to pickup a CZ Shadow 2 and told the lady to issue me paperwork for a "9mm pistol"
She put in "9mm AE" which is probably the first entry in her list alphabetically when looking for 9mm. The dealer realized this and I had to drive 1h back to the authorities to get it corrected. Lesson learned there - everyone is talking about the 9mm but it's not that obvious to some people.
Lack of diligence on firearms admin, nothing bad could come of this, don't worry about it or spend breath asking for details, just pick the first one on the list
You need paperwork to buy ammo lol?
I feel for you having to deal with that bullshit.
@@stevepalpatine2828 this was for a pistol - but when buying a firearm the caliber has to be defined in the permit. You can then get a stamp that allows you to buy ammo for that firearm/caliber with no further restrictions
@@WodanLive Got ya.
Yeah that makes more sense, I just got the impression you had to go file paperwork everytime you wanted more ammo and had to wait for it, that seemed like a huge pain in the ass, I see what you mean now.
Hey hows that Shadow handle by the way?
@@stevepalpatine2828 Absolutely in love with the Shadow 2 .. even got a second one (optics ready) and got a 6" slide made for them so I can shoot it in precision competition.
.357 Sig probably deserved a mention, since despite its name meant to evoke a revolver cartridge it shoots the same projectiles as 9mm Parabellum.
Ian announced at the start that he won't go into these cartridges. He covered only those that are actually called "9mm".
Didn't stop him from mentioning the .380ACP...
Yes, for .357Sig he should have made an exception. It meets all the other parameters of the calibers he mentioned except the naming convention.
More likely he didn't want to antagonize the 9mm luger lemmings by introducing a 9mm cartridge that completely outperforms 9mm luger.
@@JD-tn5lz But this was all about the naming convention, not the parameters. The question asked was "Why are there so many calibers called 9 mm" ?
@@JD-tn5lz The .380 ACP is also called 9mm Browning, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Short... It's all about the name.
I know. I was like, "Why isn't he talking about the bestest 9mm? The bastard son of the 9mm and .40S&W?" Sig even did us a favor by not putting a 9 in the name. Some dudes will only shoot something with a 4 in the name, but 357Sig has us, "Eh. Close enough. I guess this is OK."
But I guess the big question is why 9mm? It's like everyone agreed that a 9mm diameter cartridge was the way to go but why? Even in revolvers you have .38/.357 which are also 9mm.
There must be a balance in heat build-up, ballistic efficiency...lots of technical reasons, I imagine. It's probably a little arbitrary, but it's been around for so long that it must have some real utility. Even .50 BMG is losing out to .337 Lapua for long-distance shooting, a bullet shy of 9mm in diameter.
well you pretty much have a range ob like 5mm to 13mm wwith handguns and 9mm is just like right in the middle, not to puny and not to much of a kicker
It goes back to the ".36" calibre settled upon by Colt for his 'Navy' calibre. The .38 Short Colt designed to replace this used a 'heeled' bullet the same diameter (.375). Removing the heel reduced the diameter to .357 and the rest is history.
It's a good size for getting a balance between power and fit for an average hand basically, and very oversimplified, kinda like .30 for rifles.
5 mm to 7 mm can do anything against bulletproof vest and .45 (11.5 mm) is overkill. That's why 9 mm.
The 357sig is also a 9mm cartridge. The “357” in the name was intended to reflect the ballistic similarity to the popular .357magnum, but the bullet in the sig is .355 in diameter - the same as 9mm parabellum.
I worked with this fellow in the Navy who had bought himself a semi-auto pistol in .357 (Sig). Only .357 he knew of was Magnum so he bought the wrong ammo for the gun! I tried to tell him but he wouldn't listen. Perhaps he learned when he finally attempted to shoot it.
@@sr7312
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink
Isn't the .357 mag bullet the exact same diameter as a .38 spec bullet? But they didn't want to call it .38 magnum because they thought people would blow up their .38 spec guns with the new magnum rounds? Not sure if this is true, but that's what I heard.
@@maximilianmustermann5763 The .38 Special is much older than the .357 Magnum. Smith and Wesson released the .38 Special in 1898 to replace the .38 Long Colt in the US military. It was never what we would call a “magnum” cartridge. Bullet diameter does not determine whether a cartridge is magnum. A magnum cartridge usually uses a hotter primer and faster burning powder to achieve the higher pressures that define a magnum round. The .38 Special was never in any way a magnum cartridge. The first magnum cartridge, the .375 H&H Magnum, did not come out until 1912. The .357 Magnum was developed by the famed Elmer Keith along with Phillip Sharpe and Col. Wesson and introduced in 1934.
Yes, the bullets are the same basic diameter. Note that this diameter varies slightly even within either cartridge, and handloaders often play with the diameter and bullet shape and hardness to affect accuracy in these calibers. However, even with the bullets at the same diameter, the cartridges are vastly different lengths. In general, the firearms at the time made for the .38 Special could not fit a .357 Magnum in their chamber, so there was no danger of anyone mistakingly using the higher pressure cartridge in their .38 Special. This is still generally true today, but it is always highly recommended to check the markings on the firearm and any available documentation and ensure that the right ammo is being used in any firearm.
The .38 Special kept the “38” of the Long Colt, but the bullet it uses is nominally .357” in diameter. Keith, et al, went with the actual caliber and not the historical cap-and-ball method of naming them through the heeled bullet era into the turn of the century. In essence, S&W stuck with the “38” to make it clear to everyone that their stretched bullet was intended to replace the older “38” applications. Keith and company invented the .357 Magnum, so they got to name it, and went with the newer method.
@maximilianmustermann5763 357 is the same diameter as 38 special, however 38 special is actually a 0.357in diameter bullet. The name 38 comes from the old 0.375 diameter heeled bullets used in.38 short colt, which were eventually switched out for non heeled 0.357 diameter bullets. .38 special was based on .38 short colt or one of its descendants, I don't remember, but it got it's name from there.
Ian, you'll kick yourself around the five minute mark (5:00)... "This is full metal jacket", while pointing at the 'FMJ' initial on MagTech ammo box. Followed immediately by, "This is also full metal jacket, although it doesn't say it on there" I giggle just a little, having made the same type of grossly obvious mistake. Box in question, initials 'FMJ' at only double the size of all the other writing on said box.
There is also a relatively modern Russian 9x21mm which is more powerful than 9x19, it is used in a small number of specialist pistols and SMGs.
Yes please.
ruclips.net/video/pMGq2hFTnvM/видео.html
@@ForgottenWeapons steve
Nothing is more powerful than 9x19.
@@rob6850 10mm Auto,
.45 ACP, and all rifle calibers: allow us to introduce ourselves
At the very least, 9mm makarov adjusted case dimensions to make it not tapered which lets it feed in magazines a bit easier, which might have been the real reason why they went to 9.2mm
So that's what the "rimmed, rimless, and semi-rimmed" thing means. I figured it had to do with the rim thing on the back, but was always confused when rimless had what looks like a rim (just within the diameter of the cartridge).
There has to be something for the extractor to catch, right?
Rimmed cartridges are better for revolvers - otherwise you need some moon lip-like contraption to keep cartridges from falling into the cyllinder and allow extraction.
And the opposite goes for pistol (and rifle) magazines. Rimmed cartridges don't stack in stick mags as well as rimless, and may jam.
Rimmed cases have and extruding flange, hence their name.
Meanwhile, rimless cartridges have a groove (recess) near the base for the extractor to catch. That's the sole difference.
Mind-blowing time: There's even another, this time the rim and the bolt face are SMALLER than the body of the case! Cartridges such as the .50GI, .50 Beowulf & the mightiest of blowbacks... The 20mm Oerlikon!
@@jamestarbet9608
Rebated Rim, for anyone wondering.
@@AgentTasmania Yes, thank you. I forgot to include the term earlier.
Rimmed cases have a rim significantly wider than the case body. Semi rimmed the rim is slightly wider. Rimless has a rim the same dia as the case with a grove for the extractor. Rebated means the rim is narrower than the case diameter.
I know 9x39 basically doesn't exist outside of Russian special forces but I still would have been interested in hearing about it in this video. Especially considering how unique the guns chambered in 9x39 are
I have a broomhandle 9mm Export that I've been able to reload for. First I take a 9mm Magnum brass and cut it down to size then I clean it up and reload it. I've been working up loads on it with FMJ tops, but originally that cartridge had steel tops. It's fun to be able to work my broomhandle.
BTW bro, thanks for the "Low Down" on the 9mm. I did a lot of research when I was working on my export as it got a bit daunting with all the different 9's cartridges and uses. Thank for putting it all together.
so, does 9x39 still count as 9mm? emmmmmm
I was sitting at home, drinking my tea and watching this - nodding along, as you do - and I suddenly realised... I am a huge nerd! LOL As usual, fantastically informative video, thank you Mr. M. (I now think of you as being like an MI6 boffin, like 'Q'!) :)
I keep confusing MI6 Intelligence Agency and M16 Rifle
0:00 intro
0:38 ones he's not going to cover (9mm glisenti/.38 ACP)
1:22 9mm Luger
5:22 9mm Largo
7:01 9mm Browning Long
10:11 .380 Auto/9x17mm
12:08 9mm Mauser Export
13:38 9mm Steyr
15:50 9x18mm Ultra/Police
18:08 9x18mm Makarov
21:15 Others that he doesn't have (9x21mm/9mm Winchester Mag/9x25mm Dillon/9x23mm Winchester)
24:28 outro
Thanks! I'll put those in the description; didn't think about it when I was posting the video.
No problem 👍 great video
Anyone looking for some point of reference for how powerful 9mm Mauser Export was should note that certain loadings of .357 Sig match the ballistics of it almost exactly. Having shot a .357 Sig, I question if it was really the cartridge having too much recoil or if it was the design and shape of the C96 that exaggerated the recoil
It’s interesting to me that you noted the 9x25 Dillon, but did not mention the 357 Sig. 9x25 Dillon is effectively a 10mm Auto necked down to 9mm, while 357 Sig is essentially a .40 S&W necked down to 9mm*
357 Sig has seen some off and on use in law enforcement world, kind of filling the same niche that 40 S&W was designed to fill for those end users. And I suppose like 40 S&W is dying a slow protracted death as people realize that the promise of “the power of 45ACP with the capacity of 9mm” really means “less capacity than a 9mm without a tangible benefit to end ballistics and a lot more recoil/ noise”.
*not really but kind of. While most 9x25 shooter do often start with 10mm brass and neck it down, 40 S&W doesn’t quite resize correctly. Case head is still the same as 40 S&W though.
I have a 40 S&W, .357 Sig, and 9X25 Dillon barrel for my G29… all fun to shoot (including 10mm). I typically buy 500 - 1,000 rounds a year (before the beer curse of last year lol) and reload what I shoot.
9X25D is AWESOME, if you never shot one before. Doubletap and Underwood are the only two ammo manufacturers that I am aware of that carries 9X25D though.
Ultimate flex would be "Hey, look at my pistol, it's in 9mm. 9x39mm that is."
Matt Robson “If a drive-by happens and no one was there to hear it, did it really happen?”
Ahh... the 9mm, the USB type C of gun world
Did you mean that it can be chambered by either end? 🤔
@@igoranisimov6549 lol maybe 🤣
So 45acp is lightning cable?
well, regarding the 'you can't use our captured ammunition' - it certainly was the reason russian mortars are 82mm while in the west they were 81.
Estremadamente completo tu comentario. Muchas gracias por la dedicación de tu canal. Saludos desde México. 🇲🇽✨
If I ever were to get into firearms manufacture, I've always wondered about complicating the market even further by making a 9mm rifle cartridge just because.
There already is! 9x39mm is a Russian subsonic rifle round used in the AS Val and VSS Vintorez rifles.
@@TheArkTheArkTheArk 9X57, 35 Remington, 358 Winchester, 358 Norma Mag, 350 Remington mag. I can't recall the bore diameter of the 351 winchester self loading.
How to hide from Ian... Cover yourself with huge black letters stating FMJ... Nah I don't see him 😳
I just had a conversation the other day with a friend and was trying to explain all the different 9mm rounds out there...i missed a few of these but thats why i love what Ian does, very informative, you actually learn something from him instead of him just doing mag dumps into random things....not that i dont also enjoy that lol
Interesting video! Speaking of cartridges, I think it would be very interesting to invite Maxim Popenker, to talk about the SP-4 (СП-4) cartridge, used in the PSS (ПСС) and the OTs-38 (ОЦ-38). A very interesting technical solution!
Among handgun rounds, the 9x25mm Dillon is hands down one of the most powerful 9mm rounds out there. I own a double-stack Delta Elite chambered for it.
I have a 9X25 Dillon barrel for my G29… I love making fireballs at dusk! I only set it up a couple times a year, but it is enjoyable to shoot… not much more recoil that a standard 10mm… I typically fire around 5,000 10mm a year (last two years, not so much). That and my .357 are my favorite plinkers.
9x25 Dillon is the most impractical of all rounds...however...sure is fun to shoot out of a G29. Now if I could find a barrel chambered for it to fit my G40; then it's useful. Fyi, caribou hunting
@@JD-tn5lz I hope you get this! Look up Bar Sto barrels. I think they have them for G40’s also. The major issue is Doubletap and Underwood are the only two commercial companies to provide ammo. It’s not cheap either. I only shoot between 20-40 rounds a year… usually at dusk for the fireball.
@@JD-tn5lz I checked… they do sell them, but yt will not allow me to post the link.
As a firearms enthusiast I'm so glad I discovered your channel. This is great educational content and so fascinating. Thanks for your work.
"I carry a 9mm glock"
"oh yeah? I heard 9mm parabellum is great for conceal carry"
"9x19? Not enough stopping power, I carry 9x25mm so I wouldn't have to shoot twice"
So the inevitable question: what happens when you cram a 7.65mm round into a 9mm Luger and pull the fun lever???
It would definitely fire but it wouldn't be able to engage the rifling. it would end up leaving the muzzle at a relatively low velocity and without any spin meaning that it would be inaccurate and it wouldn't hit as hard. If you were particularly unlucky there is the chance that it could impact the rifling of the pistol and damage it but that is fairly unlikely.
@@EchoOTB yeah, it'd bassicly be a much smaller version of what AKguy did yesterday!
7.65mm luger has a bullet diameter of .309 and 9mm luger has a bullet diameter of .355.
So hotdog through a hallway basically.
I’ve seen it happen with 7,63 Mauser in a 9mm C96, basically same thing. Badly damaged case, zero accuracy, enormous loss of velocity and maybe even case stuck in the chamber. No permanent damage at all. A bullet bigger than the barrel would be much worse
It will fire, but gases will go out from the muzzle, because bullet does not seal the barrel due to smaller diameter and it will tumble in the barrel, so the bullet is able to leave the barrel, but nothing much more than that
Few people know that there’s that many 9 mm I knew most of them but you pointed out some that I never heard of great video thank you so much once again
Ian never ceases to amaze me with his knowledge of firearms and cartridges.
I size my cast lead 9mm bullets to .356 - .358 depending on the pistol some have big barrels! 38/357mag are definitely 9mm! & 357 sig! Most 9mm luger / parabellam jacketed bullets are .355 but I've got a few jacketed bullets (Hornady h.a.p hollow points) that were .356 just like Berry's copper plated bullets and cast lead
The Russians have always been defensive with their infrastructure to prevent intrusion into their territory since the Napoleonic era, hence their railways are a different width (RUS/USSR: use wider railroads 1520mm; EU and 60% of other western-ish countries use 1435mm) and their ammuniton is a different calliber (also look at: Warsaw pact).
The Russian 5ft rail gauge was not chosen for any military reason, that’s a common misconception. Especially because you can just narrow the railway very easily by pulling the spikes and moving the rail itself over.
When the Russians built their first railway there was no “Standard” width of railway. The first railway, the British Great Western railway used 7ft wide tracks, however many other widths were used since railways weren’t usually interconnected then. The standard gauge of 4’8 1/2” was adopted because of the success of the locomotives designed by Robert Stephenson, who chose that width because that was the width carriage wheels were, and he could use the existing tools and jigs.
When the Russians wanted to build their first railway, the only countries with extensive rail networks were Great Britain and the United States. Both of which had many 6ft and 7ft networks. The Russians originally wanted a 6ft network, but 5ft was cheaper to build, so that’s what they built.
@@nicholai1008 yes but many countries chainged to a common standard later on for ease of transport and NATO (we were doing the same thing). But the soviets never did since they were still in a cold war and on the side of the Warsaw pact.
@@sizifuss4751 Rail gauge isn’t standardized in NATO nor was it in the Warsaw Pact. Portugal and Spain used broad gauge, and most of the WP used standard (1435mm) gauge.
It’s almost trivially easy to narrow track. It is however, substantially more difficult to narrow the axles of every single carriage, wagon, and locomotive in the entire national pool. This is the reason the USSR maintained a 5ft gauge.
There is no appreciable military advantage to using wider tracks. The only way to effectively deny use of rail infrastructure is to destroy it, especially bridges and yards. The Soviets did this during WWII, because they knew that the Nazis would narrow the track. Which is exactly what the Nazis did.
The US measures in miles for their road infrastructure, but you wouldn’t say that’s to confuse potential invaders. Much like Russian gauge it’s simply a relic of the standards in place when it was built.
@@nicholai1008 in a war roads, bridges and trains are of strategic value. In defense you try to slow down enemy advancement by destroying infrastructure. But you cannot and should not destroy all of it as you might want to use it yourself. Railways on russian soil are on primarly flat terrain with not many bridges to destroy so the potential enemy can use them with their trains. But if they have to modify the trains or use captured ones to supply troops they are now on less favorable position.
And who would have time in a war to narrow railways.
I am not super aware that railway width is not standardised, but the fact is that not many countries have the industrial capibility to produce their own standard trains and nither want to as it complicates supply chains with alies and trade partners.
@@sizifuss4751 again, I think you’re overestimating the effort that it takes to narrow tracks. Literally all you have to do is pull four spikes, move the rail over three and a half inches, and drive the spikes back in. Railways adjust track all the time, so this really isn’t that much of a problem.
As for who has the time to do this, there are two examples I can think of off the top of my head.
The first are the Nazi Railway Commandos (Eisenbahnpioniere). Their job was to secure and repair track in the Soviet Union. This included narrowing it and reinforcing it so that Reichbahn trains could use it.
The second example is during the American civil war. The Confederate States had substantial infrastructure that was 5ft gauge (Russian railways are based on these), the Northern States used standard gauge. The North created the United States Military Railroad, to operate trains and rebuild and re-gauge track.
I was sad that you didn't mention the PP Super when talking about 9x18 Ultra. I used to have one and it was a really neat gun, even though the magazines cost more than my monthly car payment.
European used to .32: "Why do you carry a 9?"
Eurofudd: "because they won't make a 10 for 70 years..." or "the current world warrrr!"
A more likely answer: “because large revolvers aren’t needed to contain 9 mm anymore! You can use a little auto now!”
Type 26 Japanese revolver used a 9mm rimmed. I think you may know that though. I have heard that the 9mm Makarov was designed to fire the absolute largest cartridge that could function through a blowback automatic.
The .356 TSW was worth an honorable mention. I shot IPSC in the early '90s and purchased one of the .356 TSW guns for IPSC competition. Really a nice gun to shoot. I purchased a couple thousand rounds of ammo and saved my cases for reloading as I used to shoot several hundred rounds a week back then.
Interestingly when I chronographed the 124 gr hollow point ammo I had purchased for the gun it ran quite a bit slower than the 124 gr FMJ ammo. I called Federal and they said it was to keep the bullets from fragmenting in flight :eek.
Typically loaded the 147 gr TMJ for competition use - really knocked down the steel poppers.
Not only did we chuckle at guys who would come in and say, "Give me a box of Nine!" when I was a Junior Merchant of Death (tm), but I even saw a guy bring in a piece for consignment that came with a loaded magaizne that had no less than *three* different flavors of 9mm in the magazine - 9x19mm, 9x18mm (Makarov), and 9x17mm. Which was hilarious, being it was a rather worn 9x23mm Largo caliber Spanish 1911 looking pistol (I don't recall the exact model), and it didn't have Largo ammo.
I've heard this goddamned stories so many times, right down to the "Junior Merchant of Death." It wasn't you. So, I'd suggest you stop claiming Trademark rights (When that would be Copyright) over actual arms dealers. Chances are, they won't find out about it, or do anything about it, but still. We're talking about just about as insanely stupid as trying to load 9mm Makarov in a 9mm Largo. (Or Tokarev in a Mauser, which I have actually seen.)
AFAIK (Admitting my own ignorance) the story comes from a later 80s article in Soldier of Fortune magazine, and it was a picture of a drawstring bag, from Afghanistan. Since it was published in an actual Magazine, and "Jr Merchant of Death" wasn't used, it is officially copywritten, by Soldier of Fortune Magazine. (Sorry, I don't have the exact year, and issue to cite here, in the comments on youtube.) I'm guessing that's not the Magazine you're talking about, though.
@@Psiberzerker Yes, they will fit, just fine. Matter of fact, after reading your reply, I went and tested the fact (albeit not in a 9mm Largo magazine, since I don't own anything in that caliber). Had exactly zero issues loading 9x18mm Makarov in two different models of .380 magazines (Ruger LCP and Beretta 85) and multiple 9x19mm magazines (Sig P250, Sig SP2022, Glock G19, Springfield XD, GP35, Beretta 92, and Sten). Exactly zero issues encountered with any of these.
Also, I have been telling this story AND using that humorous tag line (complete with the sarcastic (tm) tag) on the internet since the late 1990s. So it's entirely possible you've run across it from *me* in the first place. So, "Lighten up, Francis."
@@Psiberzerker Heh, and a later comment downthread also reminded me of a factual error on your part, that can be independently verified without having personal access to 9x18mm Makarov ammunition and a variety of 9mm "Other" magazines...
The CZ82 (9x18mm Makarov) and CZ83 (.380ACP, AKA 9x17mm) *use the same magazine* .
@@geodkyt I don´t own any firearm.
Mechanical his first sentence makes no sence and got me confused. You would need to give the bullet some room to move reliable in the Magazine, not to metion double stack Magazines.
Thanks for your test
Customer: “Do you guys have any 9mm?”
Me, an intellectual: “that depends… what kind of 9mm are you looking for…?”
I want the best 9mm you have!
But the answer is still "out of stock"
Hawking: “People who boast about their I.Q. are losers.”
@@EricHamm same as people without sense of humor who like to quote other great prople (Me)
Try making holsters.
Customer: Do you have a holster for a 9mm?
Ian, the Austrian army also used 9x25 Mauser Export cartridges in their submachine guns in the 1930s (in contrast to their pistols in 9x23 Steyr).
the police also used 9x23 steyr for their mps!
Actually, there's NOT such a thing as
.38" cal.!!!
I'ts ACTUALLY a
.357" cal. (9mm), wich, with the change from black powder, to modern nitro-cellulosis propellents, they , to avoid confusion, called the the "new"
cal. the ".38", to avoid confusion with the ORIGINAL black
powder .36"cal.!!!
So one of my favorite games to play is smite, and so when you said “9mm parabellum” i immediately connected that to the roman goddess of war Bellona who screams “PARABELLUM” when using her ultimate. Like it was instant connection in my brain, which is neat how the human brain works
This video is just begging to be summarized by the Forrest Gump "kinds of shrimp" meme.
Awesome content as always.
As Ian said "All the ones you might find in a store today" a tear rolled down my cheek in this foul year of our Lord 2021
Have you shopped in awhile? Sportsman’s is full of ammo where I’m from.
@@suspicioustumbleweed4760 Yeah, 9x19mm is back where I'm at, but that's about the only 9mm you're going to find around here.
5:00 it literally says FMJ really large at the topleft lol
I understand the "gun jesus" references and whatever but the kind of knowledge conveyed on this type of vid is something of value to all kind of unborn descendants. You're a treasure, Mr McCollum.
Thank you.
Can you please make the same video on 7,62? There are lots of them
For any who may not know largo means long in Spanish
"9mm largo" is just as you may be expecting "9mm long" or "long 9mm"
PD: I know that most definitely someone has said something like the message that I have sent but I just wanted to share the information
English has lots of romanic languages influence: largo - large.
Fun fact - parabellum is Latin for ‘Prepare for war.’
si vis pacem - para bellum!
It's kinda cringe, I prefer calling it luger.
I have a Llama "Extra" in 9mm Largo and have had a Destroyer (wish I never sold that) and had the opportunity to stock up on that (cheaply) 10 or so years ago... Very happy I did that.. Great shooter and historical touchpoint.. Great video as always!
I have shot 38 super for years on my star largo, with no problems. ( modelo super and model A)
@@Hidalguense The late production ones (1970s, 1980s) are probably strong enough to handle it, but I wouldn't put .38 super through some early 9mm largo pistol.
@@dmytro732 I met a guy that worked with the original owner of interarms of Virginia. I ask him if was ok to shoot 38 super in the star pistols and he said no problem. I had been doing it for year before I met him. Now he is the owner of interarms Texas here in Houston.
@@dmytro732 my 1946 llama is actually marked 9mm 38....
@@Hidalguense same in my llama mkv
The ones I missed were 9x23SR / 38super and 9mm Winchester Magnum and also 357Sig as they are 0.355 / 0.356 but not 0.357 / 0.358 as 38Special and 357Magnum which I do not know if you made a video on? but if you do at .38, I hope you also mention 38 / 45Clerke and I find it interesting all types that are necked from a larger cartridge.
Like 22TCM and .224Boz but I hope you make a video about different types of gunpowder and both slower and faster that have made progress when different cartridges have been developed
Brazil has that "prohibited use of military cartridges" bullshit since the Second half of the 1980's decade...the last president (2019-2022) took that down...but the actual president(2023-2026) brought that stupid crap back!😔
Most informative. I love it, I'm hungry for more. Perhaps a 7mm pistol episode? The power of 7.62mm x 25mm Tokarev compels you.
I work at a gun shop. People always walk in and say, "You got any nines?" Then I'll ask, "What kind?" 99% of the time they'll reply with "Nine." -_-
I loathe looking for any uncommon caliber at a gun store. It's like herding cats.
@@kylebradley3 I understand. I have people look for uncommon stuff every once in a while. The problem I have is that I have a gun range and the uncommon stuff never sells. I always show them websites where they can find what they need.
7th view good morning everyone
It's night over here in SEA
@@muhammadnursyahmi9440 where are u from in SEA, If you don't mind me asking?
@@liamdayetti country that start with letter "M" and not currently in a bloody civil war.
@@muhammadnursyahmi9440 nice, I haven't had the honor to visit your country yet, although I have lived in Indonesia for many years. Hope to visit soon one post covid travel is easier
Good night, here.
Interesting and informative video as always Ian. Although I will say that I am surprised you omitted the .357 SIG cartridge which uses a necked down 10mm auto case. That said, I think the fact that it uses said necked down 10mm auto case with a lager case head may have just answered my question. Regardless, I would like to ask you whether or not you consider .357 SIG in the category of 9mm, 10mm (because of case head), or a wildcat cartridge like 9x25 Dillon?
Here in Italy the 9mm parabellum is illegal for the civilian market because, being used by the army and police, is qualified as "ammunition for war" (I'm not even joking, that's the legal nomenclature). That's why many 9mm pistols on the market are either 9mm short or 9x21mm IMI, which is ballistically pretty much identical to the 9mm, so... 🤷♂️
TBF some years ago a guy won a court appeal claiming 9mm para could not be considered an "ammunition for war" based on it's power; but the law still hasn't changed.
In my 50 years of reloading there have been several occasions to reload a 9mmMak thinking it to be standard 9x19. Since the case was resized it could become elongated and actually fire. The sound and recoil let you know something was wrong. Two others fell to far into the chamber and the firing pin would leave a small mark on the primer which did not fire.
I have never seen Boxer primed 9×18 Mak.
@@igoranisimov6549 Seller's and Berthold makes 9 x 18mm Mak with boxer primers.
@@schinderiapraemeturus6239 S&B is one of the best, made in Czech Republic
@@igoranisimov6549 I trim once fired 9mm luger brass down to .700, re-size using a 9x 18 reloading die, then build loads with .363 cal bullets. It is perfectly feasible to do this but I would recommend a 90% max powder load (or +P .380 load) for first firing as the luger case will expand slightly to fill the 9 Mak bore.
You can actually drop a 9×19 luger/paraballum into a Makarov, and it will fire & eject. But it won't feed from the magazine. The projectile nose is too long.