Star Citizen - Are Master Modes badly designed?
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- Hello Citizens!
In today's video I'm going to talk about Master Modes and some issues they might have in the first iteration. Enjoy!
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My biggest gripe with CIG is ... they just don't seem like great GAME designers for 'fun'.
idk wtf they did to the game but the ttk on a scorpius with an inferno is nuts, dogfighting honestly doesn't even feel like it's worth doing anymore
yep, went from sim to arcade. killed the love of flying for me
@@Snicklefritts It seems like few people are happy with the changes so hopefully they find a middle ground between the old flight model to whatever this shit is now
@@maginciajaz I hope so. SC used to to be my main since 3.16
@@Snicklefritts yup MM killed it for me, there is almost no skill involved anymore since everyone goes the same speed. Disengaging is impossible without losing critical components or just straight up dying. What a stupid design.
Yes. I can go full speed 1100 meters a second down to 200 with the press of a button. Very brainless when momentum doesn't exist anymore.
Yeap, its brainless.
Yup, tbh 2.5 had its faults in the flight model but "inertia" existed. They then kept throwing shit at a wall for years trying to figure out how "friendly" they can make it.
So....when you drop out of QT from hundreds of thousands of km/s that's ok?
@@tux209 yeah don’t talk about that lol
@@tux209 In theory, you don't go faster, you bend spacetime to move at the same speed as NAV, at least, if the lore says we are using some warp tech
We was telling all of this to CIG last 3 months. I just hope they will tune it to better control for our ships and flight feeling.
MM fights are more like space tanks drifting in slow motion and less like jet F16 figthters ... dogfighting is dead
... have you seen irl simulated f16 combat? Its basically exactly the same in game, just without strafing. High speed Combat manouvers are done around 500 knots, or 900 km/h pulling about 5g's and a 250m/s IS 900 km/h. It just feels slow because of perspective; Flight cameras on military exercises show similar feels. You would only get a feel for how fast that actual is if you were actively weaving in and out of cover thats scaled to the human perspective.
SCM combat speeds are actually extremely close to modern jet dogfighting.
And beyond that, f16'S dont really dog fight. Fights are ended BVR, which we do NOT want from a video game. You dont want to be firing at a lock on pip from 15 kilometers away, thats boring as fuck
Good, space ships don't behave like F16, you shouldn't expect them to
Are you getting mad because space ships arent flying like F-16’s???
@@ThreeGoddesses Fun Gameplay > All fighters feeling like turrets that can move, that can't outturn a Connie.
Master Modes = Arcade Mode, goodbye Newtonian physics, it seems that CIG is doing everything possible to take away from Star Citizen the only difference it had. It doesn't make sense to lose speed without finishing Afterburner, the ship would have to turn on the retro-thrusters to lose this speed.
I really hate MM. It is a overly complex, unrealistic and bad solution for a few PvP problems. There are way better ways to solve the issues than introducing ship modes, which are simply unnecessary and impractical and break the immersion. They should abandon this "ugly experiment" and rather tweek current behavior, properties and options on ships and guns. There are a lot of possible alternative solutions to the problems there were... A lot of wasted resources in a idea that was bad from the start by defining "MODES". Precision-Aiming-Mode is great and should be extended even more, but get rid of the modes and work on a all in one solution (possible).
Man I’ve been trying to like MM, but I just don’t get it. It makes so little sense and feels really artificial. Combat feels tedious and boring, and regular flight is compromised for no gain. I like bits of it, but it has pretty much poisoned the SC experience for me for the time being.
Agreed about it feeling "artificial." The flight model felt good before these changes but now it feels like you're stuck on a kiddie ride.
imo MM is a shit show, so much so im not gona buy any more space pixles. MM is made for noobs by noobs. the flight team are useless sadly, no clue on coolness
Yogi is demented
agreed
It's a kiddie ride. Buckle up kids!
Ship combat speed is too slow. Ship projectile speeds are too high. PVE space/atmospheric combat is tedious, and not fun. Combat speeds need to be higher.
FPS comabt in general is utter trash. The devs watched me play and kick butt at spk using the tools the game provides. The devs are noobs and I destroyed them at thier game. He got mad and said this is unintended and im gunna make changes. The whole game is messed up now in more ways than I thought. CiG has 1 problem and its Chris Roberts not making those "what kinda game am i making decions" atm they are catering to the noob community and the gamers are nit happy.
Exactly this. Flying around used to feel fun but now it feels like you're stuck on a kiddie carnival ride. Last year, flight was callenging and I kept getting better and better but now it's so slow and boring I stopped logging in.
Same, I stopped playing and cannot force myself to enjoy this clunky mess they made. Mah. Will woat out a while longer to see if there will be some major changes to the MM or will just sell out my whole account and move on to things that reward wffort and time resulting into skill. It is like they decided to make all racing automatic instead of manual as more ppl can race. Too boring.
Fighters should be able to catch a prospecter in atmosphere.
Running from a fight, even one you weren't planning on shouldn't be a free pass.
Wholeheartedly agree here, seems like you just have a "run away" button. Ttk is too long even with no shields and nav takes only 3ish seconds
@@jonathaneskew9878 Use better guns. My ttk with a spirit against a herald was about 3 seconds of sustained fire.
@@ThreeGoddesses using meta laser cannons
@@jonathaneskew9878against a herald 💀
@@jonathaneskew9878 dont pretend like its not just an inversion of the previous meta of laser repeaters. And some ships can still get good dps out of repeaters, especially on turrets.
You can turn the landing gear slow off in settings I believe.
Question. Does a snare or WT dampener keep you from going high speeds.
I think the are somewhat forcing people to get escorts or maybe talk to each other before engaging in combat.
Any confirmation of that?
@@nixie2462 not from me. Just an assumption.
Allegedly, dampeners should keep the quantum bubble from forming. Since the bubble being formed is what allows both Quantum Boost and Quantum Travel - yes, you would lose the higher speeds, too. Have not encountered a dampening field yet, but this is supposedly the way and why of how it works. The snare temporarily pops the bubble, and the dampener keeps it from forming.
Yeah, I went into 3.23 not knowing much about master modes. For the most part it was alright, but the LANDING SPEED LIMITER...omg, that became annoying in less than 5 minutes. Sound a warning, flash alarms if you want, just give damage to the landing gear above certain speeds (up and including destroying it out completely), but do NOT touch my speed capabilities like that. I tell you, in case of emergency, I WANT to ripp off my landing gear if that means I can boost my way out at the absolutest max speed my G tolerance allows.
There are definitely problems with master modes but what ur complaining about is the worst take ever
There is a keybind to toggle off the landing speed limiter. Although having it as a keybind is dumb; it should be a permanent setting option.
Thank you for the video! Good info!
So do you think will happen when they’ve implemented Sub Targeting and it only takes 2-3 people to come in and cripple your engines when all they have to do swoop on and no-skill cripple your ship? I like the ideal that when you hit something you can start losing systems, but if any dummy can target any system and it is too easy, then I see it going south quickly.
One more flaw, it turns a flight sim into an arcade shooter that is not really flying a ship like it was before. That was always the dream, Star Citizen, not squad 42, not arena commander, not Arcade Citizen, but Star Citizen… I think MM is excellent for S42 and AC, I enjoyed the swarm mode they had on arena commander for a few that it keeps dropping in pirate NOC until your dead, but I do not like this model for an every day, taking off/landing, getting around and playing this online.
Component sub targetting is an interesting topic. I think the initially proposed model isn't enough. I think component sub targetting needs to come with armor and advanced scanning.
So that components are protected by armor, at the same time they shouldn't be immediatelly targettable.
Armor makes it difficult to knock them out too fast (ie a single Arrow with a mass driver shoots out your power plants 5 seconds into the battle), this is mostly applicable to large ships. And being able to target sub components explicitly should require that you scan the target beforehand or that the shields are down. This opens up a way for skill (knowing where components are on ships so you can manually target them) and planning (creating an encounter where you can capture the target ship and then disable it)
I am not a fan of MM.
I like your idea of speed threshold initiating dropping of the shields to allow the quantum bubble to form. However, I think they would need to dial it in very carefully on a per ship basis, with each ship profile type having its own threshold. Fighters and other ships having a higher top speed losing their shield quicker [as they have quicker acceleration] , and slower and non combat ships having a longer duration before they drop, perhaps? Weapons going offline immediately, as they do now, since increased energy would be required to keep the shield up until the threshold speed is met, and then still required for QT once max speeds are reached. It could be one possible solution at least.
"Needs quantum drive to move fast." -- Most people who've taken a commercial airline flight have traveled faster than most ships SCM speed, and I don't think an Airbus has a quantum drive. The lore makes no sense, and the combat becomes a slow slog. I want Top Gun, not Snoopy vs. The Red Baron.
Personally I think it's stupid. Like I'm OK with not shooting but the shields part it is stupid.
Since the goal of all this is just to disable weapons and at high speed, I think they should re. ove the annoying mode switching and just automatically nerf weapons at higher speeds. There are a million ways to balance it -- make the gimb autoaim worse, make the weapon damage worse, make the weapon firing rate worse, make shields worse, make acceleration worse, and so on. I just don't see the point of making people hit a button to enable weapons and go slow. Instead, incentivize people to go slow.
It is not just to disable weapons at high speeds, also prevents people just getting away to recharge their shields easily and come back
So... professions like cargo and passenger transport get a "pass" on MM dangers since there's no reason for them to leave nav mode unless they get pulled out of quantum?
I’m ok with master mode.. however my ship mercury star runner was baselined…. into I can’t use it.
I got shot out of the sky because I could not use speed to get away or manoeuvre. I was a total sitting duck.
Yes, mastermodes are just bad... sorry CIG I know you have put a lot of work into them, but they just suck a** from start to end..
fk master mode
Great analysis and proposal
Honestly, I don’t know why people say this is arcade, it seems to me they are trying to make it more tactical. You definitely should be punished for disengaging from a fight people have had it too easy for too long I think with tweaking
Master modes will make things more strategy and tactical based
They should consider the possibility of upgrades on ships to support both shields and nav mode, like higher capacity capacitors, better QDs, power and shield generators, etc. At this point is very monotonic and it they thought about realism, well it's not it either.
This is a pretty even handed and well thought out overview. Plus, production values were very high and sound quality was excellent. Keep up the great work!
how come it works in freelancer?
A reclaimer NPC shouldn't be able to out run a 400i in Microtech atmo. NPC don't really get effected by MM and are still on old code but now take longer to kill them because players were killing high end targets under 30sec.
1, track chase target
2, shoot target
3, flee target
repeat
Bonus NPC MODE
shoot none stop for 10min straight.
Master Modes makes running easier than ever. You get ambushed, you drop into scm, shit out a noise to ghost, and then swap back to nav mode to accelerate to 1200m/s and leave the combatant unable to effectively engage OR you just sit in the noise and quantum out.
And shields take time to diminish and you arent entirely without protection swapping modes.
you can disable "precision" mode with landing gear down, the key binds are the last three in the ship movement category but that won't fix the CONSTANT FFFF'ing GAME CRASHING.
make sure you deleted your user and shader folders
and updated your windows and graphics card
travel in general still doesnt work. All that MM does is allow the fight to have a far better chance to have a ending. Meaning ur more than likey to die in a fight than survive. TTK system is the opposite. It allows the player to survive a railgun hit or a p6 round from that nasty sniper. Devs can call these mode whatever they want at the end of the day QT still doesnt work. If ur at SS u cant just QT to SPK cuz its obstructed. Soon as I goto OM1 around Crusader now it knows how to get there. Thats super funny cuz today I can on my phone type in any address and it give me multiple ways to get to my destination. CIG had no clue how to get that to work. I get u need to be in atmo but this is not the case from ss to spk. QT travel in SC is barbaric this late in the game still
nah, I think CIG designed Master Modes to make it even easier for combat oriented pirate ships with all the advantages to pirate industrial players who already can't defend themselves. I think they even stated that intent in the initial announcement of master modes.
Should be called Disaster Modes
So if they wanted dog fighting to be "closer" and more "star wars" like, why don't they just implement real G-forces? They have G-forces in the game, and you CAN blackout, but as they've stated, its much less harsh than IRL. So... just make it equally as harsh as IRL. That way the ships aren't limited by these arbitrary speed limiters and dumb master mode toggles, and instead you have to slow down to maneuvering speeds because if you don't you black out. It's really just that simple.
Oh no. Non combat ships are vulnerable!!
the ttk is so high it takes a good 20 seconds to kill even an unshielded cutter with no shields with a meta hornet. strongly doubt anyone will really get killed if theyre running. switching to nav takes like 3 seconds in any small ship and anything larger takes forever to kill. prospector took like 90 seconds of constant hits with meta weapons from a hornet AFTER the shields are down.
AI Prospector? It's got a bug and only takes damage from one direction.
Player Prospector. Well that puts you into a particular category.
yeah, the pvp meta right now is literally interceptors just because they can disengage super fast and dictates the pace of the fight.
Took me 5min to kill a prospector lol
I thought i was crazy when i states MM is lame but after seeing the comment sections of many videos i see about 90 percent of players agree.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
They managed to destroy the game in the same fashion Star Wars Galaxies did with The combat upgrade.
Congratulations CIG
They really need to slow down the ship accelerations, the reason the dogfighting feels “slow” is because everyone can instantly dash from zero to max speed in literally
ugh
@@robertbenz496 its why I haven't played in like 3-4 years.
This guy made a valid point and your response was being annoyed.
MM is in no way, shape, or form even remotely close to being a finished mechanic.
Just remember its not a game and your essentially paying to be able to test it before it becomes one.
Thank you for paying and playing, I'm sure one day it will be enjoyed by many.
The standard scm speed is way lower that what even the F-35 can do
Why are our space ships slower than our modern day fighters
they will be refined, reworked and tuned over and over till everyones kida happy with it
MM was an ill conceived and badly implemented change that only caused more of the issue it was supposed to solve, jousting. there were much better ways to tweak flight modes using an EQ power system instead of the triangle. MM is Hovermode 2.0
And for a game that tries to claim simulation, going full nav mode and drop landing gear you will stop at -18.3g which is enough to kill most of us.
Gonna be honest haven't had time to jump in a ship yet and go fly around been busy with life some bad things have happened to me but I don't understand why people are crying about a big change other than it's a big change..
I hate the way my ship flys now. HATE IT!!
It’s like flying a semi truck & trailer… seriously
As someone who remembers PRE/SCM/CRU Flight Modes. I'm really enjoying this new change.
I pretty much stopped all dogfighting just because it would always end up in jousting. While I do think its nice that they cap movement to scm overall MM feels very clunky. While obviously this is just the first iteration there is definitely a lot to be worked
jousting is what MM is best at xD it dident fix shit, now you just have to switch in order to fly away, recharge and come back, MM is a complete joke
@@brianfury9790I don’t joust, I just go round and round trying to flank my target. Maybe people joust because it’s what they are used to already.
@@tj7094 but.. MM was ment to stop jousting xD the slower they make it the stronger jousting and back strafe, already now MM feels like flying turrets, its horrid and makes no real sence. im sry but its made for noobs and is a insult to the promise of a space sim.
@@brianfury9790 I haven't had the same experience as you, I never back strafe. I always aim to get behind my target so it's all circles for me.
Joisting is dead
MM are indeed poorly designed. Nothing about it makes sense. It is a poor design from the very fundamental level. Seems like no one at CIG has driven anything bigger than a go-kart in their life.
master modes are a huge step in the right direction. Needs some more work but im pleased.
I think what people are forgetting is that Physics in the game hasnt been fully implemented, we have a portion of the physics in place to simulate enough G's but not the proper G's that it should simulate.
If it was in the old model....no amount of G safe was going to stop you from blacking out if you did a hard turn the "45" or "tricoding" if anything doing those at high speed would virtually black you out immediately if not you'd be respawning at your local station.
In combat under the Combat SCM you are still going 200ms and the G's you'll pull in and out of Atmosphere will be a thing. Remember Newton's first law...a body in motion will stay in motion. So if your body is going along the X axis and you suddenly change to the Y axis...your body STILL wants to go along the X axis.
This game is so far away from reality now who even cares anymore? As much as I wish it was more realistic.
Slowdown from 1400 to 200 in a second, that's physics.😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
To accelerate in space to 600 on a booster and somehow brake to 200 , it's the same physics .
How can a ship slow down on its own if there is no force acting on it?
Come on, physics experts, answer me.
they had something that could have been BIG with the previous FM. Summit1g even just started doing pvp. like when I say it could've been big, I mean a professional MLG Competitive game.
@@Lfgd421right? I use weapons mode as a brake now hahaha
Master Modes was attempted years ago with another flight model overhaul I forget what they tried to call it back then it is clearly a Chris Roberts idea no sane dev would implement such a tedious garbage system.
I hate MM so much, it pretty much kills the PVP scene and makes it a numbers game. Forget about being a skilled pilot. Prior to this patch I've won numerous situations where I was outnumbered like 3-4v1, this is IMPOSSIBLE under the MM model.
What the hell is the point of fighting where everyone goes the same speed? Might as well not even have movement as it doesn't do anything.
skill issue
Master Modes is a solution to a problem that should not exist. The true issue is the game's space flight physics and ship physics. The entire system was poorly thought out and poorly implemented. SO now, the choice is to rework the entire space physics system, or apply a clunky "fix".
Master Modes is like painting a turd to look like a cupcake. It might make it seem more appealing on the surface, but it is still a turd.
Things I have to do now when entering the pilot seat when I just want to fly from the ground into space:
1. Start engines
2. Strafe up a bit
3. Retract gear
4. Pitch up and accelerate
5. Switch to NAV master mode
6. Switch to FLT operator mode
7. Set capacitor to max engines
8. Hold down boost
This feels tedious and unnecessary
Yes
MM is not the thing... its the flightmodel... its so slow, so flat, feels like atari from 1980 and not longer spacesim...complete dogshit, they fucked it up
Over complex addition to a game that is already seen by many as over complex.; Absolute shedload of dev time that might have been better used elsewhere. Jousting remains a thing, AI ramming tactics remain a thing. I suggest that the lack of universal welcome implies that its less popular than CIG hopedl. For haulters and miners its really not that beneficial.
You can turn it off in Settings!
It's a vast improvement from the old fight model and the last time they tried speed modes. We are still missing systems to properly round everything out. It was way too easy to pick a fight and easily disengage and avoid losing. The 'high skill' speed jousting was a meta built around a speed exploit that also gave you desync tank. Fights were tedious and boring pip game attrition contests with no room for fleet tactics or ship classes. All it was is hoping your desync favors your hit registration better than theirs. It looked flashy but total trash combat. I could care less what Spectrum thinks because it's full of whiners that want their cake and eat it too for free in ships that are perfect at everything. I can't wait for the salt when we get new atmo model they showed and the age of perma hovering ships is over unless it's a VTOL optimized ship.
The way cruise control works now is meh but Ill get used to it. I think they could be a little more generous with letting shields persist a little as you switch to nav. You said Industrials would have low armor to save weight, I disagree. Industrials should have high armor from all the industrial grade heavy equipment densely packed in these ships with heavy frames to hold it all. It's not traditional armor just higher hull HP from being heavy. A strip mine dump truck for instance can take more bullets than some military vehicles but not because its armored, it's just built with half inch thick or more plate steel to support its loads.
So agreed I would put your comment in my wall. ^_^
The issue is even medium fighters move to slowly like not even 50% of what modern fighters can do
@@bhee1076 Who cares about speed comparison between sci-fi game and real modern fighters ? Pvp fights where dogshit before MM and Pve fights were ok only because AI were dogshit at piloting. MM still needs tweaking but overall gameplay is in a much better place now.
@@ImperiomSineFine i care because my future space ship feels sluggish and stuck in molasses and pvp was fine before master modes
Master modes are fucking garbage. They made turn fighting the only viable way of fighting. And they made travel feel bad.
What this needs is time. More time and understanding. Quantam and Landing systems are perfect now. The big elephant is the PVE and PVP
Very true, it does need a lot of tuning. Yogi said so, also we can't forget that they removed most differences between the handling of ships in the same category
No
I am enjoying it wayyy more, and makes combat way more intense. All the complainers just sound like squad infantry overhaul haters
Exactly , this IS the same scheme, like ICO 😊
It IS a normal effect.
fly on modern aircraft during 5 or 10 years, Switch on warbird. Your mind blow UP, it IS hard to lose habits, mostly if you did not chose. ICO haters are legit on this point.
People Need to adapt themself, test or masterised and After.. drop the feedback
FingerCrossed for MM
I literally use SCM mode as a landing brake from NAV, that’s how slow it is. I feel like I’m playing an arcade game, like COD if they made a space game
Same. What some are really mad about is that they lost their exploit that gave them speed and tank they shouldn't have.
@@feariex Maybe in the first impressions. You are comparingold and new flight model. You fly during 10 years with no constraints; now you have to hanlde the new mechanics.
In 1 month or 2, the players will saw the full potential and CIG will tune again.
It is more complicated of course :)
Check the Avenger One vidéos. WWII Players like me like this part of the flight (boom and zoom)
@@eltreum1 Don't forget they sacrifice themself, not you. They contribut a lot to developp the Space Combat Manouver / doctrine. This is like the bunnyHoping killer on Counter Strike budies.
The salt is there x)
I have invested 3k into a space sim that is now an arcade game. I will not invest anymore. I have set what used to be my main, down...
No. It’s here to stay. Let’s focus on making it the best it can be.
Are it?
I feel weapons should take like a full min to turn on after Nav mode. Shields should turn on almost instantly after nav mode . I think if you’re on a planet w/ atmo you’re most likely dead . In space mostly likely safe unless quatum damper? Doesn’t that seem fair ? On land get a clan while alone stay in the float.
yes it is bad if they add more bottens i dont know if Cig try to learn us how to fly a real airplaine or somthing this is crazy for new players not even the old players know what the bottens means its a huge problem
I think it's roughly designed. So, partially, badly.
They have an end goal and they've somewhat got it. However the way they went by with it is so arbitrary it just throws out so much nuance.
master modes punish the attackers i can tell by listening to you, you are not a very good pvpr
Yes