Stopbar Adjustment II
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- Neck tension and the stopbar tailpiece.
IMPORTANT CORRECTION IMPORTANT CORRECTION:
Raising the stopbar: LOOSEN the truss rod.
Lowering the stopbar: TIGHTEN the truss rod.
Righty tighty, lefty loosey.
Go EASY of the truss rod adjustments! DO NOT FORCE IT!! Do SLOW 1/4 turn increments and let the guitar rest in between turns.
See first video:
STOPBAR ADJUSTMENT • STOPBAR ADJUSTMENT
Oh man. I didn’t even know this was a thing. Ive been screwing my tail stop all the way down for years and really had to look up why my sustain was non existent. lifting the stop up really opened up my demon. Thanks to all talking about it on the web
So you reduced the angle and Got better Sustain?
If the neck tension increases by moving the tail piece, then you need to tune the guitar and the tension will go back to where it was or where it should be. It has NO effect on the neck relief, as long as you return the tuning back to normal.
That is correct and put clearly. I was amazed that the maker of this video said the guitar would need a neck adjustment. He shouldn't be making videos about guitar adjustments. This is pure common sense.
@@bmfilmnut I was just going to add the statement that you put in your comment. Then I read yours. You're obviously 100 % correct on both of your comments ; He should definitely NOT be making Guitar Repair Videos. 🎸🎸🎸
Same problem goes with my les paul
Can you please tell me how to fix it..? .
I will agree with that and I also agreed with exactly what you said before I read what you wrote. (Mechanical Design Technologist 1975, Certificate of Qualification Industrial Millwright Mechanic 1994)
You saved me the trouble of explaining, not good to spread misinformation,
To add to it, if the strings were any different tension then the tuning would be off.
Here's one for the books....I bought a lp std in 96. Never really thought it sounded that great. Had a Luthier look at it. He said just raise bridge .....nothing changed. High e string always sounded bad. Finally after 20 some years.... I lessened the tension by raising the stop bar. Sounds better, bends better.....
2” blue masking tape is excellent for taping to your guitar anywhere to protect the finish when doing any work on your guitar.
You can always wrap a little masking tape to the tip of a screwdriver to avoid scratching the finish.
ya realy, sticks?
@@christineblack4654 English, please.
@@12south31 I'm french so f.u.
@@christineblack4654 I still don’t understand what you tried to say. All I know now is you probably have hairy armpits and you’re a bitch.
Any screwdriver set for Firearms will work perfectly and not mar the metal with care.
All ES Gibson trapeze tailpiece models are so smooth because of the "almost straight" strings length from tailpiece to headstock. So, better feels raising the tailpiece
thanks man this the exact video i was looking for... i was wondering why my prs se was so hard to bend... cheers man
From a drummer's point of view I think the point here is to use the correct popsicle stick when making this adjustment
If your tailpiece is bottomed out, make sure your strings are not hitting the back of the bridge. This can cause binding and tuning problems.
Tell that to a strat player
@@tnokeefe But a strat doesn't have a stop bar tail piece
@@stutty1400 i just sent a reply but some thing is wrong with it no transmission,i will wait till later and send again cheers Terry. hope you get this.
if you raise the stopbar,it releievs tension,which means you must retune back up to proper tuning. No neck adjustment needed in most csses.
Agreed, If the pitch of the string is the same, its under exactly the same tension. The tension dictates the pitch, along with diameter and material (which havent changed). The difference in tension only differs at the string between the bridge and tailpiece, which becomes dynamic with a shallow enough angle.
sobo2001
The tension in a string is ideally the same all the lenght - from tuner to nut, from nut to bridge, from bridge to tailpiece. No matter what the angles are. Would only differ if you have too much friction on the nut or bridge-saddles.
@@sobo2001 Thank you. Was thinking the same thing. The pitch is determined by the gauge and tension. Raising the tail piece will do nothing other than changing the angle the string comes off the saddle.
tension is pitch. this advise is non sensical
the tension relates to the tuning. so if you have each string in tune then the tension is the same at pitch. However the flatter the break angle result in less force to raise the tension and pitch as more string is available at a lower tension to "give" over the bridge and the strings have less of a tendency to bind.
Having been a long time proponent of screwing the tail-piece posts down snug, after watching this and a couple other videos touting the benefit of reducing the angle between the saddles and the tail-piece by raising the latter, I decided to try it. The discussion of the tail-piece posts in a raised position causing less transfer of vibration from the strings to the body, affecting sustain...(which is the reason I screwed 'em down tight in the first place) still concerned me, even if a fabled concern. Regardless, before raising the posts, I completely removed them and placed a 3/16" nylon spacer as a 'bushing' twix the posts and the female studs in the body. This allowed me to still snug down the posts, insuring a super-solid relationship between the threads of the posts & studs, as well as, automatically 'leveling' the tail-piece. Raising the tail-piece by 3/16", lessened the angle from ~20 degrees to ~10 degrees. I don't notice any appreciable difference in the way they play (LP & 335), but I accept the logic that it eases the stress at the saddles... (though, I rarely if ever had an issue with strings breaking there.) And, neck relief (nor intonation) were noticeably affected on either guitar. So, for whatever it's worth, now that they're 'up', I plan to leave them up...why not? Great video...this was the one that convinced me! (I do recommend getting the appropriate sized screwdriver...and I needn't elaborate on the woes of using too small of a tool in the slot when screwing. lol Thanks again!)
MHFROX try the Fabre tone lock spacers. Excellent.
I did a little experiment where I did the exact same thing as you, added the spacers under the tailpiece posts on one of my SG's to ensure a snug fit and vibration distribution. On my other one I did not use anything, just raised the tailpiece. I thought I might see a tiny bit of difference in sustaine, but not enough that It would bother me, but I noticed zero difference. I even lied to my buddy and told him the one without spacers had them to see what he would say and he couldnt tell the difference either sound wise. However, they both felt like new guitars! My strings were so tight before. I know you have to bend a little more to achieve the same pitch when bending but it's so much easier to bend a tiny bit more than to fight with the tight string.
@@12south31 I do raised mine until it felt really nice while bending, almost no effort, still a good vibration, takes a little tweaking, totally worth it!
@1:28 The operant phrase is“if you need to“ (adjust your truss rod). I don’t have any Gibsons, but I appreciate your handy-dandy quick tips, thanks.
The only time I have adjusted my tail piece was to raise the high E string off the back side of the tuneomatic bridge on a guitar with the High E adjustment being almost all the way forward. This contact with the rear edge of the bridge piece was causing tuning and intonation problems and I also found the sustain was much improved as well.
Just use electrical tape to cover a large screw driver. It will fit perfectly and act like a rubber coating.
Very good explanations, really enjoyed. I better understand how things work with strings tension. Excellent!
I use a large screw driver with a rag wrapped around the tip so as not to scratch and mare.
That's a pretty beautiful string action right there...
The Stopbar and the bridge are both made with the neck radius cast in. If you sight down the neck,with the body toward you,you can see it plainly. The design intent is for both the bridge and tail piece to be concentric to the neck radius.
THE TITLE OF THIS SERIES SHOULD BE "COMPLETE GUITAR MAINTENANCE USING ONLY A POPSICLE STICK".
What I've been looking for is for one of these guys to show what direction to turn the stud ro raise the bridge. I've seen everything but that.
@Cristiano dos Santos Gomes Thanks, I figured it out earlier but thanks 😊
As stated by others, so much of the advice and statements in this "how to" are so wrong that I'm really surprised the maker has not removed this from RUclips. A shame so many guitar players lack a basic understanding of physics.
I agree with most everything you said. All I could get out of this video was, don't use a screwdriver. I am a beginner guitarist, but no matter how long I keep it up, I'll still never have a basic understanding of physics. Some people, like yourself, are probably born with the gift of physics, but I'm pretty positive, that the majority of guitar pickers, never even spoke the word. There's tons of tools out there, specifically for gitars, that require nothing more than a good eye and a list of factory settings for the one you're working on.
I went back to top wrapping. Why? Billy Gibbons.
thanks for the video , my gibson les paul standard came with uneven tailpiece hight , the tail piece is heigher on the high E than the low E m but it plays great and all , the sustaine is there , so i was so confused about the uneven height i thaught something was wrong , now that u said it depends how its set up im reliefed . thanks again .
Similar to top wrapping treble strings and regular wrap bass side
All personal preference
This guy is a flat out wrong. Raising or lowering the stop bar is not going to effect the bow of the neck or the actual tension of the strings tuned to pitch between the nut and bridge. No truss rod adjustment is needed after adjusting the stop bar up or down. You may get a slinkier feel when bending strings with the stop bar up but this is just because the strings can slide back and forth over the saddles with less friction. With the stop bar down the strings will feel harder to bend because the there is more tension over the saddles causing less back and forth movement of the string. But with the stop bar down bent notes will also come to pitch more quickly with less bend motion needed.
I agree with you, maybe he could set the guitar up take measurements and compare to the tailpiece in the other position. Proper tools for the proper job.
Initially I agreed with you, but then you contradicted yourself. If, as you say at the end, "with the stop bar down bent notes will also come to pitch more quickly with less bend motion needed", it literally means the strings are tighter, ie. more tension on the entire string.
It worked for me. A few months back I lowered the tp6 stop bar on my ES 347 and really didn't play it much, but when I did, it sound mid with no feeling.
So that is why I'm here!!!!!
I searched "Adjusting gibson stop bar for tone" to see what others had to say and so I raised the Stop bar and it sounds gorgeous again.
I agree with Snippy here. When properly tuned the strings will have the same tension. Beyond bending he does not explain the pros and cons of stop bars height. Most people like it low for better sustain and tuning stability. However you can have it too low such that the strings touch the back end of the bridge and they definitely should rest on the saddles alone. Not really telling us what we need to know about stop bar height.
@ Brother Snippy
That‘s perfectly explained! 👍🏼
Trying to share a simple perspective with the community prior to the invention of the stop tailpiece there was something I believe known as a claw which held the strings and was attached to the butt end of the guitar where the rear strap button is located the claw maintained an angle from the rear of the guitar to the tune-o-matic bridge the height of the tune o Matic Bridge maintains a correct distance from the fretboard in relation to the neck set the claw maintained correct angle from the tune a Matic bridge to the rear base of the guitar with the invention of the stop tailpiece people were top rapping to maintain the correct angle of the claw and avoid the strings coming in contact with the rear of the tune-o-matic bridge the claw angle is important to maintain
Some were called a Trapeze tailpiece. I may be wrong but I think the claw is part of the tremolo in the back of the guitar that holds the springs not the strings.
Masking tape on the screwdriver tip always worked for me......no marring.
Don't worry about the epi- nothing like a good Ole recling!
You would need to adjust the truss rod if you use 12s or higher but not if you use 10s
If you have to use a screw driver put some buffer on the business end like doubled up cloth Just something to protect it
Seems like you COULD use a screwdriver to adjust the stopbar if you covered the screwdriver's tip with a small piece of a plastic bag, etc.
If the tension on the strings is reduced it's out of tune. For a particular string to hold a note over a distance (between bridge and nut) it needs to have a set tension. Raised stop bar or not, the tension is going to be the same to achieve that note.
Thanks for this info. Question here. If this stop bar is adjusted to losen the tension of the strings a bit , will it affect the intonations of each strings?
The position of the stopbar effects the tension of the strings at the break angle over the bridge. Intonation should not be effected as that has to do with the length of the string. Ok to check it though.
no deal without losing the strings, thats for me, unless youre so in the ballpark even the lightest touch and rotation of your finger will make a change, and thats how i do it. me too, got the LP classic, which has a higher headstock angle, hence stiffer strings to bend, and it also affects the tone, the vibration, when not bending, thats for sure.
False: 1) It doesn't make bending easier, and 2) you don't have to adjust the truss rod.
That is not how it works at all. You raise the tail piece, you lower string tension it detunes. You tune it back up you bring the tension back to the same. It would become easier to bend only if you changed your strings, the length of the scale, or the tuning.
As for the angle: Idk what the ideal angle is. Violins have 158° (+/- 2° ). I tried it on my LP, it killed the tone and sustain. So far what worked best for me is keeping that angle as steep as possible, as long as it doesn't touch the saddle's side.
Less pressure on saddles
No reason to mess with the tail piece.
Tail piece should be as close to the body as possible with out the strings touching the back of the bridge.
Sometimes when adjusting your intonation and saddle movements will make the string touch the back of the bridge and cause pressure on the bridge .
Now on les Paul's it largely depends on how the neck angle was set when the guitar was made .
If your action is right for you and the intonation is set and the strings don't touch the back of the bridge your good
If not you may have to raise your stop tail piece until the string or strings do not touch the back of the bridge just the saddles.
Screwing down the tail piece and top wrapping will decrease string angle which intern creates less tension and the guitar feels slinky
And screwing the bar down to the body increases sustain also .
But remember to less of a break angle can cause strings slipping of the saddles when playing unless you have a feather touch.
It's all in the setup ..
Huh? Why in the world would raising or lowering the tailpiece increase or decrease string tension requiring a truss rod adjustment? Sure, tension will increase or decrease as you raise or lower the tailpiece but that would be compensated for when you re-tune the string. The tension on the neck is determined by string tension and string tension is determined by tuning and string guage. After adjusting the height of the tailpiece, you would have to re-tune the strings and that would bring the string tension back to what it was before you adjusted the tailpiece. Tension would not have changed. After all, if you just raised or lowered the tailpiece without re-tuning the guitar, the guitar would be way out of tune. I sure wouldn't want you working on my guitar is you actually believe a truss rod adjustment was necessary when raising or lowering the tailpiece.
Also when raising the stop bar you will find that you have to bend the strings further to obtain the proper pitch
Stevie Day
That’s because the “raised” stop bar is now flexing towards the bridge undoing your bend requiring you to have to bend more. Raising the stop bar is not a good idea unless you are having the string hit the very back edge of the bridge before it ever gets to the saddle.
Absolutely as well as top wrapped
@@Kwisatzhaderachgiveadogabone yes sir
Why will no video say which way to turn the screw for high or low?
Clockwise lockwise.
Lefty loose, righty tighty.
I use my toe for a gauge instead of my finger,it's more accurate
Me too because I have to.😁👍
I don’t get it!! When I lowered my tail piece my string were a lot easier to bend?? Why?
Subscribed to your channel ....thanks for ideas to ponder
Sorry. You lost me at "I didnt think scrubbing my tailpiece with STEEL WOOL would scratch the finish"!
A lesson learned in my youth!
If you change the height of the tailpiece without changing the height of the bridge, the string height will not change
Understood. Neck relief may change with stop bar movement.
Clean-up the burrs with a thin file.
I didn't even know that part needs or can be adjusted..mines is screwed all the way down
I would like someone to confirm this who knows what they're doing in terms of guitar adjustment, but I believe that when I was adjusting my stopbar, raising it did make the strings easier to bend, but it seemed that I had to bend further to get to the note I wanted. When I lowered it, there was more tension, but I had to bend less to get to the notes I was bending to. Please somebody experiment yourself and let me know your results. I'd like to confirm whether or not this is true
What your saying is exactly right, it's just basic physics. Lower the tail piece and the distance between nut and tail piece gets longer producing a tighter string. Raise the tail piece and the distance between nut and tail piece is shorter producing a looser string. If your guitar is perfectly tuned and you lower the tail piece, you'll produce sharps.
The Chad Pad
The reason you have to bend further with a raised stop bar is the “raised” stop bar itself is now flexing towards the bridge during your string bending, undoing your bending. The flexing of the raised stop bar is not good for the instrument. If you don’t believe me put an end micrometer against the raised stop bar, bend strings, watch the micrometer needle move. You bend, the “raised” stop bar flexes forward and unbends, so you have to bend more.
If you have strings striking the very back edge of the bridge before they even get to the saddle then raise the stop bar just enough to stop the string/bridge back edge interference.
I doubt the stop bar going up/down impacts the action, as the autotune intonation adjustments are 'higher' than the stop bar.
Wow oh wow.... your clearly still learning... god bless on the efforts.... but just too much incorrect in this.
Ahhh... the old finger feeler gauge trick.
Does alot of string buzz come from a stop bar being all the way down? I've tried the over the bar trick but I don't like the look of it, I'm setting up another firefly 338 and I've given the neck enough relief to stop fret buzz, except for the low E sting, which continues to buzz, when not fretting, getting ready to cut the nut better and going to raise the bar up,as I suspect it's hitting the top of the bar,where the sting exits on its way to the bridge,how high do you recommend, I'm thinking about half way, I will figure it out eventually, just trying to get an expert opinion on this, thanks for this video.
Hi @DT: Much of it is trial and error as each guitar can be somewhat different. Starting at 1/2 way is a good starting point.
So there is no specific height?
Adjust to your own liking 😊
Surely for the strings to be in tune, assuming the string guage and scale length remain the same, the tension must remain the same 🤔
Thanks for your comment. The idea is that there is less downward pressure on the bridge so the strings glide easier.
@@guitarhowtos2148glide where?
Thank you very much, this is the answer to all my questions referring to this topic. I had this idea, that the big screws of the stop bar must be screwed all the way down because of the tighter contact to the body. But then the strings touch the rim of the bridge AND even have contact to the upper edge of the holes of the stop bar. I think this will cut the strings when bending or playing vibrato. So I'm gonna heighten the screws up again.
But still there is this one question:
What about the contact to the body ? Do I lose tone or sustain then ? Or resonance, like Duck says ?
You should only need to raise it if a string is making contact with the bridge. Nothing robs more tone out of a guitar than a crappy bridge or nut.
HighSpeedirt1 thank you👍
Does anybody know what year and color that Gibson classic guitar is he is working on
Nice vid! I have too much tension on my 1st string. Can I release the tension of the stop bar with the strings on? Thank you.
Yes you can!
Great point about the truss rod adjustment. Solid info.
Glad it was helpful!
Imo there shouldn't be any type of adjustment, it should just be screwed down to the body all the way and if you want any kind of of tension relief do a wrap around.
I'm digging that bridge on your Epiphone Sheraton!
Why? You dont lose sustaine or any have any negative effects raising the tailpiece a bit, but by overwrapping the strings you will ruin the finish.
@@12south31 up high for many years could possibly result in the tension pulling forward leading to structurally damaged hardware. If you're running 9s or 9.5s then no worries, but when you move up to 10s or 11s stuff can start tweaking if that bridge is set high... Not 100% guaranteed that this will happen, but the idea are stacked in favour of this happening
Most people I see who run their tail piece all the way down wrap the strings around as you have to avoid the strings hitting the back corner of the bridge
My low e and maybe a touch on the first fret and give me a twangy sounds. Would raising the bridge create a Gap so it's not touching?
Yes. That sound you are hearing is called "fret buzz." The bridge is adjustable for the purpose of adjusting the action (the distance between the strings and the frets.)
You should also adjust the neck of your guitar using the truss rod. You may need to do research on how to eliminate fret buzz and still have the action/playability correct.
have you done any videos showing a complete setup on a les paul??
Hi Bob. Not a LP yet. Many of the steps are similar for similar guitars...EXCEPT polishing and crowning frets. You have to be careful with the binding that goes over the edges of the frets on most Gibsons.
@@guitarhowtos2148 Your videos are great, Keep them coming. I watched your video on tail piece 2, and i learned the hard way, i used a screwdriver on mine, and messed up the screw. So the popsicle stick is the way to go. I wish i saw it before i played around with my LP. lol
@@bobnazaro3444 Hi Bob. Thanks for commenting! Seems that we both learned from experience! :-)
@@guitarhowtos2148 True, some of those experiences wasn't exactly what i was hoping for. lol
Why reverse wrap on the epi? Thanks
Andy, first of all, Almost everything he said in this video is wrong! Raising the stop has NO effect on truss rod adjustment. If you raise the stop, the strings will actually loosen, but at that point, they're all flat! When you tune them back up to pitch, they're going to be at the EXACT same tension they were before. It's physics...the frequency a string resonates at is determined by it's tension, it's length (between the nut and the bridge saddle), and its diameter. Since the string diameter and length aren't being changed, they have to be at the same tension in order to play the same note! Again...it's physics, and anyone that says different is wrong. But, YOU asked why to reverse (top) wrap on an Epi?
Well, depending upon the specific guitar, there might not be ANY reason for it! But it's different for all guitars! To really understand why some people do this, you have to realize that even among the same brand and model, there is a lot of variation between guitars. The neck angle varies by up to a couple degrees in LP style guitars, and that is why some have to have the bridge way up in the air to get the right action height, and others have to have the bridge almost down to the body of the guitar!
This doesn't mean anything's WRONG with the guitars! That's why both the bridge and stop bar height are adjustable in the first place! When the bridge is raised up to obtain the proper action height, the stop bar SHOULD be raised along with it, so that the break angle (of the strings down to the stop bar) is maintained. This angle is important because if it's too steep, bad things happen. First, the string contacts the back of the bridge. That marks up the bridge, and causes strings to break. But the second, and more important problem, is that with a steeper angle, the component of force being applied in the downward direction is increased! Over time this contributes to the bridge sacking out...or bending downward...in the middle. So, you might ask, why doesn't everyone just raise the stop bar along with the bridge? After all, that's how the system is INTENDED to be used, right?
Right. But some folks believe that the strings will sustain better if the stop bar is screwed down all the way onto it's posts. The idea is that the more solidly the stop bar is attached to the body, the better the sustain will be due to the whole system being a more solid unit! So, these folks screw the stop bar all the way down...usually not knowing why it's a bad idea.
Enter top wrapping! Top wrapping allows the people to screw the stop bar all the way down, giving them the solid contact between the stop bar and the body, while still keeping the break angle shallow enough that there isn't any more downward force on the bridge than normal! It's a pretty easy and effective solution. To me, the only downside is that top wrapping will inevitably lead to marking up the stop bar. But, stop bars are cheap and easy to replace if you decide you want to go back to normal.
i use coins
5 or 10 cent of euro
I am now stupider after watching this video
Once again, it's so easy to find free advice on the internet. But like this one, it's given by people who believed other bad advice. You obviously have no clue about how any of this works.
And you troll Gary can move on. You don't know how to talk to people. Those who offer nothing, have nothing. To where do I send you my bill?
Butcher. If you used a proper size screw driver that would never happen!
Put a thin cloth in the crack and then put in your standard size screwdriver.
That’s what she said
i use coins
5 or 10 cent of euro
A fine point: Cabinet makers use special screwdrivers that have no taper for this very reason. That is, so that screws don't get mangled. Mechanics and most others use tapered screwdrivers because they are more "universal". In other words, hopefully the screwdriver goes deep enough in the screw's slot to press firmly on both sides of the slot but, even then, a regular screwdriver only touches the edges of the slot. Cabinet maker's screwdrivers fit perfectly in slot from top to bottom eliminating damage to screws. The downside is that you need a complete set with blades of all possible thicknesses for your work. Clockmakers, cabinetmakers, gunsmiths, etc., use cabinet maker's screwdrivers.
Disregard everything he said about tension
This is incorrect information. Raising or lowering the stopbar (or tail piece) has nothing to do with the action DO NOT ADJUST the TRUSS ROD BASED on the tailpeice height
Stop bar tailpiece should NEVER be uneven. It will cause a loosening of the studs in the body of the guitar.
Sorry, but you're wrong.
I agree. This guy is not an authority on stop bar adjustment. Do not watch his video. Nothing worth learning here except using a popsicle stick so as not to ruin your slots. "Move along, nothing to see here!" Hahaha
Cheers
Dude you should eat chicken skins, your fingertips are scary!
When you raise the stop piece it reduces the string tension and the string goes flat. When you retune the string back to the original pitch then the tension goes back exactly where it was. If the pitch is identical, and the distance from the nut to the bridge is identical, then the tension is identical. People are fooling themselves into thinking that bending is easier when the raised stop piece is now flexing towards the bridge (when in its raised position) which is not good! You’re doing string bending, the stop piece is now flexing forward making you think you’re a string bending genius. Put a micrometer on the stop piece and measure the flexing movement (in the raised position) while bending a string if you don’t believe me. It’s just physics and math. You’re adding the stop piece flexing to your bending effort when the stop piece is raised which is not good for the instrument. But if it makes you feel like a guitar god.....go fo it! 😂
Raising the stopbar produces less tension as the string travels over the bridge.
if you lower the tention then your gonna retighten it when you tune back the strings no?? lol this is weird thinking and will do nothing but waste your time fooling around with everything.
could somebody please tell me what year the Gibson Les Paul classic is in this video?
2012