The second you got in a rate-fight on the deck I smelled trouble. The F-16 in DCS is widely suspected of having far inferior performance in this compared to the genuine article. If you feel like reaching out to ED as a SME it may be beneficial to the model. Edit: Just saw the drag race and knew the outcome before it started. The widely accepted way to win in an F-16 if a F-18 tries to drag you into a rate fight is not to, i.e. extend and recommit. I haven't heard as many F-16 virtual pilots complain about the F-16's acceleration since it benefits them, lol.
I'm a retired sheet metal repair guy and spent most of my years fixing F-15, F-16, F-4, F-111, T-38 and so on. It's fun to watch actual pilots fly, fight, and BS. The pilots would spend all day braking jets and we spend all night fixing them and getting them ready for the next days missions. Didn't know how much fun I was having back than. Some of the best days of my life.
@@59thfsaviation79 Nav Systems for me on A10's 23rd Tac Fighter Wing and RF4C's 363 Tac Fighter Wing. What you talking about, we all wish we could go back. I'm 61 now.
@@caractacustube Actually, the F-104 had better sustained turn performance than contemporary MiG-21s. Small wings, sure, but also better thrust-to-weight and better thrust-to-drag than the contemporary (early) MiG-21s.
@@bronco5334 Yeah I fly an F104C in Warthunder and it actually turns as hard as you'd want with high energy. The problem is that the aircraft doesn't turn very well below 650mph lol!
Mover: "Have you ever been in a rate fight with a Viper like this?" Gonky: "Not winning. Not winning, that's for sure." Eagle Dynamics: "The Viper is accurate to the records we have."
@@icecold9511 Not true below 20,000 feet. The F-16 is a magnificent machine but the Hornet will outrate it below 10,000 feet. So Sayeth The Holy E-M diagrams...and real live pilots who've fought those training dogfights. The F-16 is at its best above 20,000 feet.
@@Turboy65 What are you on about? Both of these guys were qualified (or still are sorry if that is incorrect) in one or both planes. I'd say they know those planes better than yourself champ sorry
@@dfgiuy22 In the real world, a Hornet will outrate an F-16 at lower altitudes. DCS simply has that modelled wrong. Fact. This is not a critique of flying skills real or simulated.
Very cool content! I like the DCS gunfights and hearing formally trained fighter pilots talk. My family has had many pilots in the armed forces and I want to thank you both for your service. That fighter pilot mentality applies to more than just flying. Great channel Mover
DCS players telling real pilots they're doing it wrong was almost as cringeworthy as a COD player telling a real US Soldier that he's a coward from suffering PTSD after Afghanistan
Glad to hear you call Gonky out for flying with a WSO. Must be sitting on his lap in that single seat Hornet. I thought I heard the WSO right after takeoff.
Happy Veterans Day, SIR.. As a former Crew Chief, you guys make me laugh and brings back old memories hanging with the Jockey’s.. I appreciate everything you and Gonky have done.. {A-7d, A-10, F-117, and KC-135R, Crew Chief} Thanks again and Blessings, “Clear Skies, and Soft Landings”..
Guys thanks for sharing these videos with us. 10-20 years back only could find Discovery channel pilot stories with some old clips. This is just magic.
this really illustrated how the f-16 isn't properly modeled in dcs, still a really cool video! Would love to have your input with the development team over at Eagle Dynamics - I'm not a part of them but I know that there are real pilots in contact with the team so as to make the flight model as realistic as possible.
The E-M diagrams tell the tale. The F-16 SHOULD lose a rate fight on the deck against a Hornet. This is why I fly DCS when I want to look at pretty graphics, but I fly Falcon BMS 4.35 when I want to fly ACCURATELY modelled F-16s. BMS is the superior sim if fidelity to the real aircraft's performance is what you seek.
@@tharrrrrrr It's well known that the F-16 rates faster when above 20,000 feet but down on the deck the Hornet makes it around the circle faster, both planes being flown to their limits. Check the published E-M diagrams in their respective technical publications. I like the F-16 better and if there was one aircraft on earth that I would pick to fly ONCE it'd be the F-16, but if it came down to a dogfight with a Hornet, I'd be smart to stay high and fast. The Hornet WILL outrate it down on the deck.
@@Turboy65 The pilots seemed confused when the hornet out-rated the viper down on the deck, so maybe they'd never fought against it at such a low altitude.
@@Turboy65 Im confused by your comment. You say that what is seen matches the EM diagram, but then say that Falcon BMS is the only really good F-16 sim. You seem to be saying that the DCS flight model is mostly correct, but then suggest that it isn't. Please clarify.
Gonky may have lost but some of those moves in the hornet were pretty awesome to see. He fought the alpha fight!, and I'm sure there was no paddle involved at all!! Great watch, thanks guys. I'm going to donate and enroll for the tournament!
Awesome indeed! The best part for me was when he realized the Hornet *easily* out rates the Viper (even without using the paddle) and subsequently committed to, and absolutely decimated him in, the 2-circle fight.
@@Mark_Point No ED has already adressed and fixed the F-16's g-rate control in the latest update, while still keeping the hard limit of 9.0 G's (which limits how fast the FCS will let you turn, even with plenty of airspeed and the stick pulled back all the way). As far as I understand, their main development focus for now (just looking at the F-16) is mainly concerned with multiplayer game balance, with the biggest changes expected to come to the F-16's radar, specifically sidelone clutter and sensor noise. This should finally bring the Viper's maximum radar detection range (for a fighter-sized target and when flying at high altitudes over terrain) down to the ~30nm goal, although I am unsure if this will be the same over the sea as well. Furthermore, it will give adversaries the ability to fly "under the radar" of the F-16, similar to how the reworked AIM-120C AMRAAM's radar seeker now also works, when the target is flying close to the ground (i.e. Increased sensor noise resulting in less accurate target parameters; A chance to lose the lock entirely, in the ground clutter, even when there is a large closure speed relative to the target, placing it well outside the 'notch'; Also a degraded INS guidance when tracking low flyers.). All of that being said, I still think increased drag or decreased engine performance is likely also a high priority, as it will acheive multiple goals at once: It will severely limit the ability of Viper pilots to exploit the PN persuit guidance laws that the majority of DCS missiles still use. It will also make kinetically defeating missiles much less of an option, without ED having to rework the missiles' performance or guidance logic. Taken together, slowing down the Viper would not only allow for a more balanced BVR fight, but would also reinforce the close range 'notch meta' that they like.
@@mortlet5180 Um... there is no such thing as "balance" in dcs. At all. And there never will be. They have repeated this 15000x over the past how many years. When the eurofighter comes out, all "balance" will be thrown out the window in mp for both bvr and bfm anyways...
It seems like the Viper is still underperforming with regards to nose authority/turn rate. You should absolutely have been able to pull 9G and be _accelerating_ (if you wanted to go above your optimal turn rate for a rate fight lol) in that Viper. I understand that ED is aware of the problem and is working on it.
why does everyone assume 9G accelerate is a fact? if your at 9g and 2 degree's of AoA you'll accelerate like a rocket. if your at 9G and 28 degree's of AoA you'll stall out. reduce to the G's to 2 and stay at 28 degree's of AoA and your still gonna stall out. the Alpha is locking you out of your acceleration and nose authority NOT your g.
@@TheRocketdrive How, exactly, does one attain 9G at 2° AoA? G loads are most commonly a factor when an aircraft is turning, or in any way altering its flight path. As for '9G and accelerating,' I simply repeat what I have heard other Viper pilots in DCS say, which is that the F-16 model in the game is severely underperforming. The IRL F-16 was one of the first negatively stable jets that featured a digital FCS, or Fly By Wire FCS. It was designed for agility and speed and had a thrust to weight ratio higher than 1:1. Whether or not it can accelerate while turning at 9 G is immaterial; the Viper should not have problems with nose authority or agility, and should have an advantage in energy recovery over most (not all, _most_ ) aircraft in DCS.
@@TheRocketdrive AoA refers to the angle (measured against 0° AoA perfect level flight) at which an aircraft's lifting surfaces (wings, strakes, Canards, basically the entire aircraft) attacks the air. As aircraft turn or climb, in AoA increases as the nose moves. Obviously, the higher the AoA, the greater the drag, particularly in delta wing jets & delta/canard planforms. This is why the Mirage is known for its rapid deceleration during high AoA maneuvers. That big delta wing acts like a giant airbrake, especially during rapid G onset maneuvers with around 25°/second or more turn rates. Generally speaking, drag increases as AoA increases, while airspeed decreases as AoA increases. It requires a jet with a T/W ratio over 1:1 to allow acceleration, or even maintaining the same airspeed, at extreme AoA, due to the tremendous drag incurred by extreme maneuvers found in dogfights. I've seen IRL Viper pilots who fly in DCS state that they should be able to maintain a 9G turn in full burner and be able to either indefinitely maintain the jet's ideal airspeed for the highest, most efficient AoA, or to actually accelerate. Acceleration in Max G turns, of course is dependant upon altitude, external temperature conditions, humidity, and engine efficiency under the current weather conditions at the time of engagement. The whole point was, pretty much all Viper pilots agree that the F-16 in DCS is kinematically underperforming. * Also, extreme G loads like 9G are always the result of extreme course deviations, whether that be rapid onset G from quick turns, or from extreme and violent aircraft oscillations found in post- departure regimes. I cannot think of a single example of any aircraft loading up 9G while performing a 2°/sec turn. G load is _always_ related to deviation from linear straight flight, or to rate of acceleration. We do not possess any aircraft that can accelerate quickly enough to produce 9G in linear acceleration. The cause of this is simple Newtonian physics, ie inertia. Objects in motion will continue to move in a straight line unless acted upon by an outside force. The G load pilots feel is due to the action of control surfaces producing deviations in airflow causing a turn in which inertia wants the pilot's body and the aircraft to go straight, but the aerodynamic forces from the surfaces produce a turn. The higher the airspeed & the tighter the turn, the greater the G.
@@skyhorseprice6591 and that should perfectly explain why "muh plaen dun turn at 9g so is wrong!" is lazy and incorrect critism. the G loading doesnt really matter as much as AoA onset in the turn. If people claimed the 16 was riding/took on too much AoA too fast for it's turn then I could see it, but everyone complaining about Gloading being the problem is like complaining that the F18 is underperforming in BVR because of it's paint color.
Compared to other RUclipsrs. you did something I really wanted for a long time and MAD props for defeating the RUclips compression with it. It was the nice arrow pointing at Gonky / Bandit, allowing us to know where he is, especially when RUclips tries to mask him with the terrain!
SAR-H pilot here… I get that this is a simulation but has given me a great appreciation for fighter pilots… I could never pull those angles or even see where the bogey is.
Love this so much! Sims have come so far since the old-school sims I started with like Chuck Yeager's Advanced Flight Trainer and Falcon 1.0 on our first PC when I was a kid.
I love how we can see the difference between you and other gamers. You track the enemy plane at all times instead of jarring 3rd/1st person camera changes. You can tell this guy knows about air combat
Well most DCS servers are noob servers with 3rd and fallow bandit camera like Grawling server, but if you play DDCS server you only have first person and bac in the days you didnt even had f10, pure instrument nav or magic nav
@@CWLemoine i know, otherwise the entire server would be flying around you guys documenting the event and spamming the screen shoot key hehe, i was just pointing that most public servers are casual servers with external cams ON
@@CWLemoine There is a way to save the track file of the mission, then replay it so you can get external views. When you see the other channels replaying dogfights in third person that is what they are doing, they dont have extra people getting shots live
So much fun to watch these guys pulling Gs and saying this is gonna heart ( body muscle memory kicks in). These guys risked theyr lives every time they sat in cockpit of jets.
@@b0bl00i from the looks of it the dcs f-16 has more thrust than it should as seen from the straight line acceleration performance. At the same time it seems to generate too much drag during the turns which is why even though it has more thrust, it's not accelerating the way it should while turning.
Looks like Gonky did a great 'acting' job of making the host of the show look like an ace. ha ha 😉 No one will ever know which of you is better, because I'm sure you're both probably "sandbagging". But it was fun to watch! Another idea for a different sort of competition with different scenery...In F-18s/-14s...see how many 3-wire's you can get on the carrier. Best of 5 or best of 7? That wouldn't be too boring, would it? You could edit it. I'd watch.
Man, DCS players have been raging since release about the rate of the Viper. I remember flying it shortly after release vs a Hornet buddy. I flew perfect corner speed on the EM diagram and I couldn’t make any progress. It was exactly what you and Gonky experienced. I think we did 5-6 attempts on the deck at opposite ends of a circle. The Viper would not sustain 9 G’s, and even worse, the pilot would consistently start to GLOC at 7.5. At most, I could get maybe 3 seconds at 9 G.
Agree, but remember in DCS we have very late heavyweight F-16C Block 50 CCIP. Not Cold War hotrod i.e. Block 30 like C. W. Lemoine have flown in the USAF. Post Cold War Viper gained so much weight it partially lost its maneuverability edge.
Ignoring the f16 comments (don't know much about the 16), the dcs f18 has upgraded engines which apparently gave it quite the boost in rate performace.
This is awesome. I just realized I wasn't subscribed although I thought I had hit the button long ago. So now I am for sure subscribed. Love all the content. Fighter pilot content or otherwise. It's all good stuff man.
I have no real experience like you two. But I thought there were certain points where you would want to extend to regain your potential energy. But you both kept turning and seemed like both dumping energy until someone got a slight advantage. Love DCS and trying to get better. Old Aces high player where each aircraft and understanding it's advantages/disadvantages(e.g. Energy vs. turn). Thanks for the great videos just trying to learn more DCS from pros like you to get better. Thanks.
Suck with confidence is my motto lol. Always very entertaining to see you two take to the virtual skies. BFM Gonky with the Tomcat next. I also think it would be pretty cool to see Gonky take us through a proper Case 1 when he gets better at DCS.
It´s interesting see how concentrated Lemoine was...your heavy breath...even he sitting in a normal chair without high G forces...we can imagine how hard is doing this in real life with G forces and life risk. No time to breath.
We are going to get a set up for sure - this is just addictive - digging your channel - we binged a good deal of your content and now watching these. The Viper should rate better we thought than the F18. One circle the F18 ... We think would win.
On the "It won't turn!!!" I spotted a speed of 166kts. I only have a dozen or so hours on the FS2020 F18, but that speed feels wobbly in a landing for me. Never mind in a near vertical.
You both should have tried fighting with JHMCS on. Its an absoulte game changer when you can monitor your speed while looking outside, to compensate that you cant feel the jet in the game. I guess the fights would have looked way different. Maybe you could consider that in the rematch ;)
Always nice to see real fighter pilot(s) playing DCS. However it would be much more fun to see if you could add webcam video of yourself while playing. Especially if you are using VR headset. Commenting your actions while flying/fighthing also very interesting. If I were 20 years younger I would be Hornet pilot at Finnish Air force :D
We did that on the last one, actually. Didn't think it was relevant here. As for commenting, that's the purpose of the debrief video. Too busy fighting.
Flight model has been adjusted and AoA already by ED. Viper already fights better and Ive out rated my buddies in Hornets. When you unload and get your speed back you will hit above nine. CW flew Block 42 compared to the Block 50 CM modelled in DCS. They would differ in performance.
Neither of which has anything to do with the fights. I was not on the limiter and couldn't get my knots back. I also couldn't hit 9Gs unless I was over 5 bills.
Hey Mover this was probably suggested to you before but, would you ever consider giving Falcon BMS a try? Considering how much you flew the Viper and the fact that the F-16 in BMS is 99%+ modeled, it'd be interesting to see what you think of it and hear your thoughts on how accurately modeled (within reason obv because OPSEC) it is in BMS. Thanks.
Check out Gonky's side of things: ruclips.net/video/WuCRYSEPLvI/видео.html
Thanks Brother Lemonie for sharing a wonderful DCS video.... Love and respect from Pakistan... 🇵🇰🇵🇰❤️
Long live PAF..... 👍👍👍
The second you got in a rate-fight on the deck I smelled trouble. The F-16 in DCS is widely suspected of having far inferior performance in this compared to the genuine article. If you feel like reaching out to ED as a SME it may be beneficial to the model.
Edit: Just saw the drag race and knew the outcome before it started. The widely accepted way to win in an F-16 if a F-18 tries to drag you into a rate fight is not to, i.e. extend and recommit. I haven't heard as many F-16 virtual pilots complain about the F-16's acceleration since it benefits them, lol.
...am I imagining it or does your voice tighten up like you're "Hicking" through heavy G's sometimes?
These dog fights make me wonder why the millitary has yet to build fighters that shoot missiles backward.
Is landing a fighter jet in dcs as hard as in real life
I'm a retired sheet metal repair guy and spent most of my years fixing F-15, F-16, F-4, F-111, T-38 and so on. It's fun to watch actual pilots fly, fight, and BS. The pilots would spend all day braking jets and we spend all night fixing them and getting them ready for the next days missions. Didn't know how much fun I was having back than. Some of the best days of my life.
@G E T R E K T probably enjoying his retirement
Thank You for Your service Sir.!
Crew Chief on F-15's and 16's. We bitched and griped, but would give anything to go back and do it again.
@@59thfsaviation79 Nav Systems for me on A10's 23rd Tac Fighter Wing and RF4C's 363 Tac Fighter Wing. What you talking about, we all wish we could go back. I'm 61 now.
@@silent1967 Hey brother, just turned 69 in October.
“Even if you’re gonna lose, suck with confidence”
- C. W. Lemoine
Implementing this advice into my life right away
Words to live by
This is probably the first DCS video I’ve seen where the pilot verbally expects painful G’s and it’s super refreshing
Haha, Longshot occasionally sounds like he's pulling Gs lol.
Lol 7:27
Now we need an F-104 vs F-104 dogfight video. Expected winner: Ground.
*Lockheed
Happy birthday to the GROUND!
LOL it's one circle, one biiiiiiiig circle....
@@caractacustube Actually, the F-104 had better sustained turn performance than contemporary MiG-21s. Small wings, sure, but also better thrust-to-weight and better thrust-to-drag than the contemporary (early) MiG-21s.
@@bronco5334 Yeah I fly an F104C in Warthunder and it actually turns as hard as you'd want with high energy. The problem is that the aircraft doesn't turn very well below 650mph lol!
Mover: "Have you ever been in a rate fight with a Viper like this?"
Gonky: "Not winning. Not winning, that's for sure."
Eagle Dynamics: "The Viper is accurate to the records we have."
@Panda Banana
I've flown both in DCS, but mostly Hornet. A properly handled 16 should out rate a Hornet. Much lighter plane.
@@icecold9511 Not true below 20,000 feet. The F-16 is a magnificent machine but the Hornet will outrate it below 10,000 feet. So Sayeth The Holy E-M diagrams...and real live pilots who've fought those training dogfights. The F-16 is at its best above 20,000 feet.
*chuckles in Tomcat*
@@Turboy65 What are you on about? Both of these guys were qualified (or still are sorry if that is incorrect) in one or both planes. I'd say they know those planes better than yourself champ sorry
@@dfgiuy22 In the real world, a Hornet will outrate an F-16 at lower altitudes. DCS simply has that modelled wrong. Fact. This is not a critique of flying skills real or simulated.
“He’s in a flat spin, headed out to sea!” - Mover after shooting Gonky
Very cool content! I like the DCS gunfights and hearing formally trained fighter pilots talk. My family has had many pilots in the armed forces and I want to thank you both for your service. That fighter pilot mentality applies to more than just flying. Great channel Mover
EFPD!
Gotta love the Makos! We see them over the beach all the time. My hometown! MIami, FL.
DCS player: you’re doing it wrong, turn on JHMCS…
Real USN and USAF pilots: do you have any hot single female relatives over 21?
😂
Lmfao
DCS players telling real pilots they're doing it wrong was almost as cringeworthy as a COD player telling a real US Soldier that he's a coward from suffering PTSD after Afghanistan
Glad to hear you call Gonky out for flying with a WSO. Must be sitting on his lap in that single seat Hornet. I thought I heard the WSO right after takeoff.
Let's just pretend Gonky was in an F/A-18D : )
@@pogo1140 [jeremy clarkson voice] ...or B...... or B....
Happy Veterans Day, SIR.. As a former Crew Chief, you guys make me laugh and brings back old memories hanging with the Jockey’s.. I appreciate everything you and Gonky have done.. {A-7d, A-10, F-117, and KC-135R, Crew Chief} Thanks again and Blessings, “Clear Skies, and Soft Landings”..
Guys thanks for sharing these videos with us. 10-20 years back only could find Discovery channel pilot stories with some old clips. This is just magic.
Mover: Have you ever been in a rate fight with a Viper?
Gonky: Not winning!
LOL
Umm... no one gonna talk about that butter smooth landing by Mover?
Yeah, I know. Looked pretty tidy didn't it. I would image he wouldn't have much author over the speed with such a steep approach in a slippery jet.
Yeah! That was so cool to watch. He thought he was pretty much in an emergency and slicked it on a sharp approach. That was awesome!
this really illustrated how the f-16 isn't properly modeled in dcs, still a really cool video! Would love to have your input with the development team over at Eagle Dynamics - I'm not a part of them but I know that there are real pilots in contact with the team so as to make the flight model as realistic as possible.
The E-M diagrams tell the tale. The F-16 SHOULD lose a rate fight on the deck against a Hornet. This is why I fly DCS when I want to look at pretty graphics, but I fly Falcon BMS 4.35 when I want to fly ACCURATELY modelled F-16s. BMS is the superior sim if fidelity to the real aircraft's performance is what you seek.
@@Turboy65 you sure the F-16 should lose a rate fight against a Hornet?
@@tharrrrrrr It's well known that the F-16 rates faster when above 20,000 feet but down on the deck the Hornet makes it around the circle faster, both planes being flown to their limits. Check the published E-M diagrams in their respective technical publications. I like the F-16 better and if there was one aircraft on earth that I would pick to fly ONCE it'd be the F-16, but if it came down to a dogfight with a Hornet, I'd be smart to stay high and fast. The Hornet WILL outrate it down on the deck.
@@Turboy65 The pilots seemed confused when the hornet out-rated the viper down on the deck, so maybe they'd never fought against it at such a low altitude.
@@Turboy65 Im confused by your comment. You say that what is seen matches the EM diagram, but then say that Falcon BMS is the only really good F-16 sim. You seem to be saying that the DCS flight model is mostly correct, but then suggest that it isn't. Please clarify.
Mover, I missed this live but I'm watching now. Donation sent. Good on you and Gonky!
It wasn't live. You didn't miss anything. Thanks for the donation!
@@CWLemoine Good people, good cause.
Gonky may have lost but some of those moves in the hornet were pretty awesome to see. He fought the alpha fight!, and I'm sure there was no paddle involved at all!! Great watch, thanks guys. I'm going to donate and enroll for the tournament!
Awesome indeed!
The best part for me was when he realized the Hornet *easily* out rates the Viper (even without using the paddle) and subsequently committed to, and absolutely decimated him in, the 2-circle fight.
@@mortlet5180 Not just the rate... I think that might have also shown the work that the viper needs still.
@@Mark_Point No ED has already adressed and fixed the F-16's g-rate control in the latest update, while still keeping the hard limit of 9.0 G's (which limits how fast the FCS will let you turn, even with plenty of airspeed and the stick pulled back all the way).
As far as I understand, their main development focus for now (just looking at the F-16) is mainly concerned with multiplayer game balance, with the biggest changes expected to come to the F-16's radar, specifically sidelone clutter and sensor noise.
This should finally bring the Viper's maximum radar detection range (for a fighter-sized target and when flying at high altitudes over terrain) down to the ~30nm goal, although I am unsure if this will be the same over the sea as well.
Furthermore, it will give adversaries the ability to fly "under the radar" of the F-16, similar to how the reworked AIM-120C AMRAAM's radar seeker now also works, when the target is flying close to the ground (i.e. Increased sensor noise resulting in less accurate target parameters; A chance to lose the lock entirely, in the ground clutter, even when there is a large closure speed relative to the target, placing it well outside the 'notch'; Also a degraded INS guidance when tracking low flyers.).
All of that being said, I still think increased drag or decreased engine performance is likely also a high priority, as it will acheive multiple goals at once: It will severely limit the ability of Viper pilots to exploit the PN persuit guidance laws that the majority of DCS missiles still use.
It will also make kinetically defeating missiles much less of an option, without ED having to rework the missiles' performance or guidance logic. Taken together, slowing down the Viper would not only allow for a more balanced BVR fight, but would also reinforce the close range 'notch meta' that they like.
@@mortlet5180 Um... there is no such thing as "balance" in dcs. At all. And there never will be. They have repeated this 15000x over the past how many years. When the eurofighter comes out, all "balance" will be thrown out the window in mp for both bvr and bfm anyways...
@@jonnyj. Agree! This DCS is about the aircraft and not "balancing" for gameplay
It’s great of Gonky to take time from his busy schedule to help promote a worthy cause.
The Viper flight model is way better now! Definitely worth a rematch.
Mover, that was a superb SFO approach, and landing. You were chatting like it was no big deal, and for you it wasn't.
Great hands man
"flying over this city is not a good idea!"
"for the hostiles?"
"no, for the graphics!"
Loool
Loved it! The DCS dogfights are always fun to watch with the commentary!
It seems like the Viper is still underperforming with regards to nose authority/turn rate. You should absolutely have been able to pull 9G and be _accelerating_ (if you wanted to go above your optimal turn rate for a rate fight lol) in that Viper. I understand that ED is aware of the problem and is working on it.
why does everyone assume 9G accelerate is a fact?
if your at 9g and 2 degree's of AoA you'll accelerate like a rocket.
if your at 9G and 28 degree's of AoA you'll stall out.
reduce to the G's to 2 and stay at 28 degree's of AoA and your still gonna stall out.
the Alpha is locking you out of your acceleration and nose authority NOT your g.
@@TheRocketdrive
How, exactly, does one attain 9G at 2° AoA? G loads are most commonly a factor when an aircraft is turning, or in any way altering its flight path. As for '9G and accelerating,' I simply repeat what I have heard other Viper pilots in DCS say, which is that the F-16 model in the game is severely underperforming. The IRL F-16 was one of the first negatively stable jets that featured a digital FCS, or Fly By Wire FCS. It was designed for agility and speed and had a thrust to weight ratio higher than 1:1. Whether or not it can accelerate while turning at 9 G is immaterial; the Viper should not have problems with nose authority or agility, and should have an advantage in energy recovery over most (not all,
_most_ ) aircraft in DCS.
@@skyhorseprice6591 do you know what AoA or angle of attack is and how it correlates to drag?
@@TheRocketdrive
AoA refers to the angle (measured against 0° AoA perfect level flight) at which an aircraft's lifting surfaces (wings, strakes, Canards, basically the entire aircraft) attacks the air. As aircraft turn or climb, in AoA increases as the nose moves. Obviously, the higher the AoA, the greater the drag, particularly in delta wing jets & delta/canard planforms. This is why the Mirage is known for its rapid deceleration during high AoA maneuvers. That big delta wing acts like a giant airbrake, especially during rapid G onset maneuvers with around 25°/second or more turn rates. Generally speaking, drag increases as AoA increases, while airspeed decreases as AoA increases.
It requires a jet with a T/W ratio over 1:1 to allow acceleration, or even maintaining the same airspeed, at extreme AoA, due to the tremendous drag incurred by extreme maneuvers found in dogfights.
I've seen IRL Viper pilots who fly in DCS state that they should be able to maintain a 9G turn in full burner and be able to either indefinitely maintain the jet's ideal airspeed for the highest, most efficient AoA, or to actually accelerate. Acceleration in Max G turns, of course is dependant upon altitude, external temperature conditions, humidity, and engine efficiency under the current weather conditions at the time of engagement. The whole point was, pretty much all Viper pilots agree that the F-16 in DCS is kinematically underperforming.
* Also, extreme G loads like 9G are always the result of extreme course deviations, whether that be rapid onset G from quick turns, or from extreme and violent aircraft oscillations found in post- departure regimes. I cannot think of a single example of any aircraft loading up 9G while performing a 2°/sec turn. G load is _always_
related to deviation from linear straight flight, or to rate of acceleration. We do not possess any aircraft that can accelerate quickly enough to produce 9G in linear acceleration. The cause of this is simple Newtonian physics, ie inertia. Objects in motion will continue to move in a straight line unless acted upon by an outside force. The G load pilots feel is due to the action of control surfaces producing deviations in airflow causing a turn in which inertia wants the pilot's body and the aircraft to go straight, but the aerodynamic forces from the surfaces produce a turn. The higher the airspeed & the tighter the turn, the greater the G.
@@skyhorseprice6591 and that should perfectly explain why "muh plaen dun turn at 9g so is wrong!" is lazy and incorrect critism. the G loading doesnt really matter as much as AoA onset in the turn. If people claimed the 16 was riding/took on too much AoA too fast for it's turn then I could see it, but everyone complaining about Gloading being the problem is like complaining that the F18 is underperforming in BVR because of it's paint color.
I've been waiting to see Gonky give it a shot! Looking forward to seeing more after some practice.
That probably won’t happen. Gonky doesn’t have that kind of time
@@CWLemoine understandable!
Compared to other RUclipsrs. you did something I really wanted for a long time and MAD props for defeating the RUclips compression with it.
It was the nice arrow pointing at Gonky / Bandit, allowing us to know where he is, especially when RUclips tries to mask him with the terrain!
Great vid and gameplay. Most impressive thing was seeing Movers flame out landing while chating about the next fights rules.
My thought exactly.
Been waiting for this.🙌 you guys playing together is the funniest stuff I have seen in awhile.
Gonky: "oh he couldn't get nose on for that shot, better reverse my turn so he can get another chance!"
SAR-H pilot here… I get that this is a simulation but has given me a great appreciation for fighter pilots… I could never pull those angles or even see where the bogey is.
I would like to see Mover dogfight Growling Sidewinder in Viper or Hornets.
To make it even more interesting, you should dogfight in A-10s.
I dont think he would like it that much, real pikot dont enjoy dcs thst much, and as you can see he wasn't happy with the f16 flight model at all lol
pro gamer vs real pilot
GS is still hiding from the FOH DCS Challenge.
@@cup_and_cone You’re right about that, I wonder what’s holding him back.🧐
I mean he did fight a Rafael Pilot in F/A-18s and Mirages.
This and so much
As a member of MFE... Thanks for overspeeding the jet ;)
Love the video's, keep them coming sir.
Hearing Gonky in the F-16 was like listening to Rooster in the back of the F-14
this just shows how much work is needed on the flight model of the F16. great video :D
This was awesome! Thx Mover! Hopefully ED fixes the Viper FM.
When a real F-16 Pilot says your in game F-16 isn't modeled correctly, you need to consider their words, Eagle Dynamics
Mover: "Won't be talking specific #s. Don't want to give away anything classified"
World of Tanks players: .......
Rooster DID SAY “it’s not the plane it’s the pilot sir”..!
Good show ole chap..! ✊🏻🇬🇧💙
Suck with confidence that's great! Perfect philosophy love it
Love hearing you guys have fun. Will be excited for the tournament.
Love this so much! Sims have come so far since the old-school sims I started with like Chuck Yeager's Advanced Flight Trainer and Falcon 1.0 on our first PC when I was a kid.
Loved Falcon 1-3.0
Truly enjoy watching two real fighters going at it. Well done, Gents!!
Love videos like this. Not so much because it is aviation/DCS themed but just having fun with friends and supporting a good charity
I love how we can see the difference between you and other gamers. You track the enemy plane at all times instead of jarring 3rd/1st person camera changes. You can tell this guy knows about air combat
Oftentimes, dogfight servers in DCS disable 3rd person cameras. All you can do is track with your head.
Well most DCS servers are noob servers with 3rd and fallow bandit camera like Grawling server, but if you play DDCS server you only have first person and bac in the days you didnt even had f10, pure instrument nav or magic nav
I hosted this match privately. No public servers.
@@CWLemoine i know, otherwise the entire server would be flying around you guys documenting the event and spamming the screen shoot key hehe, i was just pointing that most public servers are casual servers with external cams ON
@@CWLemoine There is a way to save the track file of the mission, then replay it so you can get external views. When you see the other channels replaying dogfights in third person that is what they are doing, they dont have extra people getting shots live
So much fun to watch these guys pulling Gs and saying this is gonna heart ( body muscle memory kicks in). These guys risked theyr lives every time they sat in cockpit of jets.
Man this is actually pretty thrilling! Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the fun content! I just sent in my donation, and may try joining the tournament in a Mig-21 for the laughs. Can’t wait!
Seeing 2 real pilots at it on dcs,you 2 show regular dcs gamers how intense dog fights can be
This was a lot of fun, do more of these!
There is a debate going on in DCS forums as to the current f-16 flight model being too sluggish in terms of turn and roll response.
You heard the man, the f16 performs like shit in dcs.
@@b0bl00i from the looks of it the dcs f-16 has more thrust than it should as seen from the straight line acceleration performance. At the same time it seems to generate too much drag during the turns which is why even though it has more thrust, it's not accelerating the way it should while turning.
yes, compared to falcon bms the f16 in dcs is way worst in rate fight and dogfight in general
Looks like Gonky did a great 'acting' job of making the host of the show look like an ace. ha ha 😉 No one will ever know which of you is better, because I'm sure you're both probably "sandbagging". But it was fun to watch!
Another idea for a different sort of competition with different scenery...In F-18s/-14s...see how many 3-wire's you can get on the carrier. Best of 5 or best of 7? That wouldn't be too boring, would it? You could edit it. I'd watch.
Thanks for your guys service dude!
Man, DCS players have been raging since release about the rate of the Viper. I remember flying it shortly after release vs a Hornet buddy. I flew perfect corner speed on the EM diagram and I couldn’t make any progress. It was exactly what you and Gonky experienced. I think we did 5-6 attempts on the deck at opposite ends of a circle. The Viper would not sustain 9 G’s, and even worse, the pilot would consistently start to GLOC at 7.5. At most, I could get maybe 3 seconds at 9 G.
Agree, but remember in DCS we have very late heavyweight F-16C Block 50 CCIP. Not Cold War hotrod i.e. Block 30 like C. W. Lemoine have flown in the USAF.
Post Cold War Viper gained so much weight it partially lost its maneuverability edge.
A block 50 is just as much a hotrod as a Block 30, some who have flown both even preferring it.
Ignoring the f16 comments (don't know much about the 16), the dcs f18 has upgraded engines which apparently gave it quite the boost in rate performace.
@@sloppy-1-1 There's still no way it should out-rate a Viper.
@@tharrrrrrr but yeah, outrating a viper is a bit wired for anything other than a tomcat with flaps
Was cheering and calling throughout this set. Great work, very entertaining.
Hell yeah! Time to do it all again! Can’t wait for you to make fun of my landings again
Hornet pilot on fire: SHE CAN HANDLE IT!
Holy I am impressed! I can really tell you guys got trained for years. Really good fights!
"Watch the mountains." You guys are hilarious. Looking forward to the debrief...
This is awesome. I just realized I wasn't subscribed although I thought I had hit the button long ago. So now I am for sure subscribed. Love all the content. Fighter pilot content or otherwise. It's all good stuff man.
This is the stuff I really love....you can hear movers breathing change and he's doing his high G techniques
No I'm not 😂
Good old Indian Springs Auxiliary Airfield. I was there for the good part of a decade and saw it become Creech AFB.
I have no real experience like you two. But I thought there were certain points where you would want to extend to regain your potential energy. But you both kept turning and seemed like both dumping energy until someone got a slight advantage. Love DCS and trying to get better. Old Aces high player where each aircraft and understanding it's advantages/disadvantages(e.g. Energy vs. turn). Thanks for the great videos just trying to learn more DCS from pros like you to get better. Thanks.
That first gun kill was beautiful. Perfect deflection shot set up.
Pretty cool to see two masters of their craft go head to head
right as I was thinking Gonky basically has a WSO, Mover: you got a WSO out there Gonky!
Suck with confidence is my motto lol. Always very entertaining to see you two take to the virtual skies. BFM Gonky with the Tomcat next. I also think it would be pretty cool to see Gonky take us through a proper Case 1 when he gets better at DCS.
Side note Cabela's/Bass Pro Shops is currently allowing people to round up for Folds of Honor.
That was a great video man, thanks.
Gonky had a ret. IRL F-14A RIO to back him up!!! lol
It was like having a cheat code!
the landing without fuel was a real stunner 😮
I liked the landing at 14:00 the most :D
I love when you have Gonky onboard!
Mover and Gonky videos never fail to entertain. Fun times as always.
This was so much fun to watch. Awesome sauce!
Gonky looks like he was a VFA-125 Rough Raider. I was there 2003-2005 when Smurf was the Skipper
loved the fight, can't wait for the debrief :)
Greate video. You guys seems to have a lot of fun with this.
It´s interesting see how concentrated Lemoine was...your heavy breath...even he sitting in a normal chair without high G forces...we can imagine how hard is doing this in real life with G forces and life risk. No time to breath.
We are going to get a set up for sure - this is just addictive - digging your channel - we binged a good deal of your content and now watching these. The Viper should rate better we thought than the F18. One circle the F18 ... We think would win.
On the "It won't turn!!!" I spotted a speed of 166kts.
I only have a dozen or so hours on the FS2020 F18, but that speed feels wobbly in a landing for me. Never mind in a near vertical.
That was extremely fun! I enjoyed it greatly, thanks!
You both should have tried fighting with JHMCS on. Its an absoulte game changer when you can monitor your speed while looking outside, to compensate that you cant feel the jet in the game. I guess the fights would have looked way different. Maybe you could consider that in the rematch ;)
Nah. Never flew with it in real life, no need to start now. Sometimes too much data is a bad thing.
@@CWLemoine Thats what you're saying now. Lets wait what you say when you did the tacview debrief 😁
@@TheDarkman222 oof
@@CWLemoine But it gives you benefit of radar locking. You could lock him before he crosses the nose.
@@krain.8245 You can do that with ACM 60. TMS down.
cool video. just had my upt board interview for ang. hope to be flying vipers soon!
Eagle Dynamics: DCS is the most realistic air combat sim EVER!!
Also Eagle Dynamics: in DCS, Hornets outrate Vipers at any altitude.
The fights was great. But the Min fuel landing was just bliss to watch ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Wow, I really liked the way you handled the landing in the 2nd fight!
This was great to watch
Beautiful landing @14:00
Well after the first merger i would just lose sight on the bogie and die in 15seconds, thanks for the arrows 😂👍🏼
Always nice to see real fighter pilot(s) playing DCS. However it would be much more fun to see if you could add webcam video of yourself while playing. Especially if you are using VR headset. Commenting your actions while flying/fighthing also very interesting. If I were 20 years younger I would be Hornet pilot at Finnish Air force :D
We did that on the last one, actually. Didn't think it was relevant here. As for commenting, that's the purpose of the debrief video. Too busy fighting.
GREAT VIDEO GUY! ENJOYED IT VERY MUCH. TRY MIG-29 WITH F-18 AND F-16
Cant wait for ED to fix the FM for sure. A rate fight should be easy for the Viper against the hornet.
Flight model has been adjusted and AoA already by ED. Viper already fights better and Ive out rated my buddies in Hornets. When you unload and get your speed back you will hit above nine. CW flew Block 42 compared to the Block 50 CM modelled in DCS. They would differ in performance.
I flew the 25, and 42 in training. Most of my time is in the Block 30 Big Mouth.
@@CWLemoine beg your pardon. Block 30. Did not know the distribution of hours.
Neither of which has anything to do with the fights. I was not on the limiter and couldn't get my knots back. I also couldn't hit 9Gs unless I was over 5 bills.
@@CWLemoine thats fair I understand - its only game
Cool too watch actual veteran pilots fly DCS
14:25 apart from the fantastic dog fight that landing really cemented for me how much I suck xD
Full left stick, 48 KIAS.
"She won't turn!"
Can't imagine why. 🤔😂
lamo thats what the us airforce teach you
This was hilarious. Good stuff!
I can feel the G incoming when you say "This is gonna hurt".
So could I!
"We weren't below the hard deck for more than a few seconds. I had the shot. There was no danger. So I took it."
Hey Mover this was probably suggested to you before but, would you ever consider giving Falcon BMS a try? Considering how much you flew the Viper and the fact that the F-16 in BMS is 99%+ modeled, it'd be interesting to see what you think of it and hear your thoughts on how accurately modeled (within reason obv because OPSEC) it is in BMS.
Thanks.
Bms compared to DCS is trash, sorry, but shall i lie?
verrrrrry iiiiiiiiiiiinteresting
methinks ED needs to get some more SME input on the F-16 side.........
I believe they are working on it.