You’re sleeping on genestealers+broodlord. They absolutely wreck infantry. Into vehicles/monsters, especially toughness 10+, but against infantry, especially elite or semi elite infantry like terminators or ordinary space marines, they punch extremely hard, are extremely fast especially in vanguard onslaught, and are surprisingly difficult to kill especially in melee with the -1 to hit. They can almost one turn a 5 man of terminators, and can one turn a 10 man of ordinary space marines or almost one turn a 6 man of Gravis armor. Since most of their attacks are the actual genestealers damage 1 attacks and the dev wounds gets a lot of them through tough saves they also can do quite well against tanky damage reduction invulnerable save units like ctan or Deathwing knights so they can generally kill these things pretty well too. And since they’re so fast, they can normally catch these slower tanky units in positions where they’re not in good positions yet and kill them. Plus in invasion fleet with sustained hits or lethal hits and adrenal glands their damage can get even crazier because both help a lot against their respective targets (lethal hits helps with high toughness stuff like ctan or knights, sustained helps with stuff like terminators or gravis). They’re a bit costly, the broodlord maybe could take a 10 point reduction, but even as is you can make their points back while using them in a way that prevents important units from getting to objectives.
This. Didn't a Tyranid player just grab #3 at the FLG Lonestar Open? Undefeated with a Vanguard list sporting among other things 3 Broodlords and 3x10 Genestealers. Effective glasshammers enjoying heavily terrained boards.
I finally finished painting my Broodlord & 10 Genestealers and have managed to get 5 games in with them against sisters & CSM. They absolutely smash. Wasn’t expecting too much, but I was running synaptic nexus and they just mulched anything in their way. Too out 3 Paragon Warsuits & 6 wounds off a Rhino in a single round of combat amongst many impressive feats With the 5+ FNP in invasion fleet I suspect they’ll be surprisingly capable of surviving there really well and Vanguard is an obvious fit
100%. Genestealers with Broodlord are NASTY, especially with all the Vanguard support. The squad rarely ever misses more that two or three attack rolls out of it's 45 and averages I think like like 7-8 Devastating Wounds (even without the rerolls when an objective). Add in that Synapse boost and a potential +1 to wound from either a Neurolictor or the Surprise Assault stratagem, they can easily shred through whatever they slam into, and Vanguard's Advance + Charge makes sure they'll get into melee range *fast*. Even on their own, a squad of 5 makes a nice objective skirmisher unit.
Played my buddies death guard today, my gene-stealers and broodlord snuck right up to 20 poxwalkers and typhus. Killed the entire squad and character with damage still left to spare in one fight phase. Out of all my units he is by far most afraid of that one. They went on to kill a mephitic blight hauler, 10 plague marines, and take 4 wounds off Mortarion before finally biting the bullet. Absolute monsters.
And most of my warriors are built with guns, I remember the good old days of warriors being able to get like str 8 AP 2 with Boneswords, and the deathspitter was basically a better bolter
Trygon is expensive. BUT it is one of the best mission tools / mind game units in the game actually, espeically with a winged prime(that you probably take anyway) First of all, it is basically unscreenable.. so you will ALWAYS get your missions done.. and then, SINCE it is basically unscreenable, people will often ignore screening entirely, making it that much easier to score with the winged prime instead, and just using the trygon as a backline shredder. you can drop them both, winged prime does the action, while the trygon suddenly sits on the enemy objective, or gets a charge off outright killing something wih a bunch of S10 attacks. Or rapid ingress him first, and then drop the winged prime in your movement phase to support him where he needs it while doing a mission. and then they both just sit there, FORCING your opponent to move the hell back quickly and deal with them unless they want to lose their home objective and give up a ton of points. They make SO much space for the rest of your army. If they would cost 150 points, I would put them in every single list.
I thought they changed the swarmlord so it's like an aura. As it always increases strategyms within a range... It's still the same on app as once per battle increase strat cost..
@@DMDuncan37 definitely noticed that today on eBay. I don't know any of the detachments and I don't feel like buying the book right now to figure it out. Just kind of looking at the data sheet cards that were free online. Right now I like the idea of backline shooting bugs with the tervigon going up the board with giant spawns of termagaunts.
There are a few instances with this list i dont agree with, although i do over all agree. For instance, In assimilation swarm, Ripper swarms are really really valuable. I also dont feel like the Neurolictor is really a stable anymore, more a hard carry. He used to, but given the higher strength, new rupturefex and Zoans hitting on 2s with big guns never tire so you cant tie them up, you now have more opportunities to kill tough opponents that you couldnt before. I run Invasion fleet primarily, and i just dont need Neurolictors anymore. I would still take one if they were cheaper. But if you already have Tfexes, zoans and exocrines in your list, you dont need a neurolictor.
Winged tyranid prime, is the single best scoring unit now. having at least one will auto score you all the action in enemy DZ mission by himself for the cheapest cost. AND/OR force opponents to screen against it, making your onslaught that much easier. basically always take 1.
Truly....make datasheet tierlist have no sense without considering Detatchment as priority value. So suggest for the future : 1 - Invasion dataS. Tier list 2 - PsyNexsus dataS tier list 3- Invasion dataS tier list and so on, and for this purpose I suggest you use only 3 categories : Stample, Hard carry, good.
Genestealers with Broodlord absolutely slap any and all kinds of infantry off the table, and can then make a very good roadblock with their invulns and Invasion Fleet FNP. Recently used them against Custodes and they were a real nuisance to their elite high value infantry.
Finally someone who put the Norn in hard carry tiers. The last update gave him a lot. I play 2. The problem is : you become quickly addict, it is very confrontable to put Norn on objectives. However they still cost very expensive and if they die quickly it can be a real issue. Why soo hard with Van Ryan Leapers ? It is quite nice to screen and box an opponent close his base, making sure that he will stay close to his base turn 1 ... slowing all his strategy.
I smashed a riptide with the acid spray 10 attacks. He was in the open. 8 damage from 4 dice is epic. Though a little more expensive than the neurotyrant. I cant see myself taking the rupture cannon if i dont have an exocrene. Its only 2 shots.
Harpy is definitely overcosted but it is interesting! It on average kills assassins and other small single model utility models with just the bombs. Plus a 2+ BS on stranglethorn can be good at poking damage at stealthy targets. Also has vanguard invader keyword like the tyrannocyte!
You are severely underestimating the psychophage. In normal play its c tier. In assimilation swarm it is S tier. The 6 up FNP doesn't sound like much, but a hauruspex on 1 wound is vastly scarier than 0 wounds. It is also very good at secondaries. You loose no offensive power if it gives up shooting and charging, as it has no offensive power. And in the off hand chance you need to kill mortarian, its anti-psyker.
The nerf to unending swarm feels an awful lot like someone high enough in gw got stomped by them or something They were ok but not great and that nerf was huuge. Effectively removing the detachment from the game
You can have up to 3 of each if you'de like, but you probably wouldn't. You can take up to 3 of any datasheet excluding epic heroes and 6 of any battleline unit or dedicated transport.
Oh fun, a tieranid list. Side not... Zoanthropes are SOOOOOOO good now. I think the Broodlord and genestealers are super solid in vanguard onslaught. Being able to stuff up your opponents front line turn one is super handy.
@vaettra1589 fight first, free heroic intervention (usefull as DE tend to decide where the charge will be), loads of attacks, and dmg 1 isn't a problem since eldar mainly have 1 wound.
I’m experimenting with the tyranocyte transporting a psychophage. 205 points for 5 OC and 2 big based models with deep strike. Both are T9 10W models and the psychophage has a natural 5+++ while giving the tyraocyte 6+++. So they either way they need to chew through roughly 14W from the phage first before 10W from the cyte. Or roughly 11-12W from the cyte before 14 wounds from the phage. I’m trying it out in crusher stampede as a distraction on secure objectives to hold for enough time to let my battle turtles waddle over.
In my experience, Warriors and Genestealers are pretty close to each other on their overall performance... Which one is better depends a lot on stuff like your detachment of choice, your general gameplan/playstyle, and the offensive/defensive profiles you expect to see during a tournament. Sometimes Genestealers will perform better and sometimes warriors will perform better... it is up to each pilot to find out which one fulfills most of their needs.
You didn’t mention that the funny transport thing can embark another version of itself. So you can have 6 embarked in one another and then put swarmy in the last one.
melee warriors hit hard into targets higher than their weightclass and have an actual niche as the tyranids strong melee infantry. In that role the only contender they have are genestealers which do less damage Ranged warriors atm are only decent into squishy units and are outshined by lictors, hormagaunts, raveners etc when it comes to efficent smal combat/utility/scoring units
giant amount of attacks that get reroll wounds, 6 melee warriors is 36 attacks, and then its S6 with the synapse buff in melee, S6/T6 is a huge bracket to be in over S5/T5. With twin linked you can punch up to bigger targets. Also ranged warriors hit on 4s is a huge feels bad and you can just take an exocrine instead
the crux of it is honestly that ranged warriors arent actually that great at shooting. Hitting on 4's, guns are alright, but dont really punch up that high. They are good for clearing light to medium infantry...which is something PLENTY of other Tyranid units are able to do. Melee warriors however are amazing at their melee role, especially with the prime to help cheese a bit of extra movement for charges and grant them the vanguard invader keyword for that detachment (though they can do work anywhere). High volume of STR 6 attacks, that can reroll 1's, with twin linked, and -2 AP, and sustained will do WORK even against heavy targets above their weight class, and absolutely delete things at or under it as long as they can be delivered to the target Ranged warriors honestly just need to be able to hit on 3's, and probably get some other useful ability if they ever wanted to be worth taking right now
I think it's pretty hilarious that Exocrines got buffed du to complaints from Tyranid players. :-P I mean, yes, it was not the best shooting unit in the game, but for their point cost they already did a good job and they are soooo much harder to get rid of than something like Havocs (which are back up to the same cost as them).
Luckily the buff from 8->9 is weird mathematically. It modifies the wound rolls on mostly reliant on T9 transports and weirdly T8 minions. In every other toughness bracket it means the same wounds roll. The biggest thing is the flavor of spending 85% of your spinal column gives you at least a S9 weapon😂
Im still not a fan of the norn emissary, they are still just so squishy for their pointscost and still so limp. For whopping 105p less you get maleceptor who is conditionally as if not more durable and is outdamaging the norn outright into infantry and light vehicles and the norn is not a vehicle killer ether. I think the norns are just such bad design just barely held up by 15OC
Thanks. I don't agree with the tervigon, a mediocre unit is really not much. It's cheap than before. I often play it with 20 or 40 termo. It's a good unit with these buffs. In an invasion fleet with a fnp, it's solid, and many gaunts allow it to hold the ground.
13:43 its hard to remove my hive gaurd with shock cannons, the for sure 12 attacks is really nice after the exocrine shot, and if you can get a pyrovore spurt off you strip there cover so in my army they have such a big overwatch threat. And they are relatively tanky
@@Deathgaming112 everything i have mentioned has Way better overwatch than the limp nonweapons Hive gard have XD. The Tfex and the NT both have scary Torrent weapons. The carnifexes with OOE can Pick up entire squishy units on overwatch with the sheer volume of shots, Full rerolls to hit and sustained/lethals. Hiveguard barely do anything when they Shoot normally so who cares if they hit Overwatch on 4+.
@@galling2052 your wrong non of the units you mention can take out a transports, or anything related to anti tank, they will normally have a 3+ save and a 4 + inv so hive guard punch into that very effectively alot better then the opts you said
@@Deathgaming112 Oh i did not say Overwatch against vehicles. But Tguard are not good against those either. They do an average of 5D against the usual T9 3+ transport.
How can you say that carnifexes are good.. Have you played Games with them? Have you seen a admech using the Robots? Did you notice how bad admechs are? Did you notice how Bad the Robots are? Do you know how many Points they cost? Oh right. They cost 90 Points.. Now here is the Kicker, they have basically the Same datasheet AND admech has better rules to Support them for Combat. Carnifexes cost 125 POINTS!! for hitting only on 4+.. With terrible Range weapons.. and terrible melee weapons in top. They are T9 8W which means they they can be killed by even the weakest semi anti Tank weapons.. hell even tyranids can easily kill them... Haruspex exist. Why would you ever Run a T9 8W hitting on 4+ Low Attack Monster, when you can Pick a T11 14W hitting on 3+ high Attack Monster for the EXACT same cost. EVEN with full hit rerolls they are so so so so much worse on average.. I genuienly am frustrated that they killed my Favoriten model and the reason I got into the Game.. But These Guys SHOULD cost 90 Points and I am not exaggerating. After the Point drop Hype, people will realise that they are still ONLY okay at that price.. Because they are just an easy to kill Body that do nothing. Thats all they are now.
I had a full carnifex/screamer killer Army in 9th. They were hitting on 3+, they moved fast, they wounded every Tank on a 3+ While beeing unkillable with -1D tanken.. Now they are just pathetic and I have to buy gigantic ugly derpi big blobhead screamer Killers that are also overcosted and are only mediocre..
They are good specifically with OOE in Invasion fleet and you at max take 2 of them. For rapid ingress play and overwatch. In melee they just about kill any hard target without 4+ invuln. In overwatch they can pick up the average untility unit or cripple the average squshy glass cannon unit. In every other reguard i agree. Carnifexes are on Old one eye lifesupport atm. Pure injustice
@@galling2052 thats a 390 point investment. how is overwatch useful? When you get around 9 shots with stranglethorn. thats 2,75 succesful hits after rerolls. lets say 3 hits where then maybe 2 wound, one gets saved and you kill a single spacemarine.. 4+ invuln rarely matter for them since they are only ap -2 or ap -3, statistically thats not a big deal getting 1ap less after everything that comes before this step.. when you rapid ingres them, you still need to give them synapse SOMEHOW if you want to kill tanks or terminators, because otherwise they kill nothing with their S9 attacks.. and if you go crushing claws you still only get 8 attacks from 2 models, thats 6 successful hits after rerolls. 4 successful wound rolls and then 3,4 failed saves against a single T10 3+Sv model. Thats ~15,3 Damage. So in conclusion, you need to be lucky to successfully deal 12-14W of damage to a normal tank to be able to kill it, and you can very much just fail too.. Either way you spend 250 points to probably kill a 170pts tank. And that is before the fact that they likely get killed before they get there, or the moment after their first kill after you rapid ingress them and overwatched or give them the fnp and spend 2 cp on this unit to do a whole bunch of nothing.. for the same cost, just having a lone OOE and two lone Harus does SO much more work.. not only are you present in 3 diffrent locations.. but the enemy has to commit ALOT more shooting into killing each of these guys in different locations.. not to mention that they would need real anti tank weapons to deal with harus instead of just any S10 weapons, plus you get basically the same attack, yes no rerolls and one less ap (which is not the biggest deal as we mentioned with 4+ invulns basically everywhere) but hitting on 3+ to begin with is just slightly worse than rerolls. PLUS you get 14! extra S7 attacks per model, and a actually situationally good anti character sniping tool, so they are even multifunctional. and they work against ALL tanks, even superheavys. And Haruspexes we all know are barely okay too.. so that just goes to show how bad carnifexes truly are at 125 points each.. yes you CAN run them in invasion fleet and dont be completely sad to have them. and maybe with a whole unit of 5+ fnp it is sometimes okay and they survive against some armies.. but they never allow you to punch up against better armies.. and sadly we need units that do exactly that.
@@leSmokySmoke the loadout is crushling claws + devourers or 2xdeathspitters/2xdevourers. So overwatch scores around 8-9 hits(claws+devourers/2xdeathspitters) or 16-18(2xdevouers), with sustained or lethal. The claws are making waves again because they are S13 now. We have synapse in overabundance now. They are are better than harus in invasion because of stragagem efficency. 5+++ and ingress being very good on them. Haruspexes in general do not see much play... im even a haru fan, but i can not deny that they struggle... hard, hit hardish but slow and squishy and outshined. And yes OOE sees play on its own as well, the carnifexes are very much optional.
@@galling2052 its 7,3 hits with 2x devourers after rerolls, 14,6 with sustained. and then you have a bunch S6 0 ap attacks.. 7 0ap lethal hits will do nothing so I can safely skip that part. that would be good for killing trash units I agree.. but taking devourers would never come to my mind ever. 250 points for an anti infantry unit sound like an aweful idea in general.. and yes I agree with the fnp as I mentioned. but this whole investment still is not worth it. they will always die to a single shootingphase. and remember that it is ALSO way more efficient to target a single unit for the enemy.. for example oath gets full rerolls to 3 models then, instead of just against one. they get +1ap to 3 models for something like ridge runners or scout sentinels.. or any other combat trick that basically any army has. they simply die against everything, they will never survive a battleround against even the most mediocre armies in the game.
NEVER, EVER take a hive tyrant (or swarmlord). it is SUCH a terribly bad unit. it is simply SO SO overcosted is all.. the ONLY useful thing he has in the cp generation... other armies pay like 100 points for such a model.. having this ability on a monster that isnt really a monster is just such a bad combination.. it is just SO easy to kill, unless your maybe in invasion fleet with the enhancement.. but that again is a 260 point model then.. for just a T10 10W model... as a range support it is UTTERLY trash.. assault does literally nothing for this army.. our small range guys already have assault, and our big guns want to be stationary ideally and youe no longer can do actions anyway.. so this is a literally nothing ability. Lethal hits is NEVER, EVER worth 235 points. NEVER. On exocrines we have done excessive testing, on himself, on gaunts, on gargoyles. EVEN if you force yourself to have ALL three exocrines next to each other to get the full benefit, even if that is a terrible idea.. you get around ~4.8 extra Wounds off a single tank with a 3+Sv! or just 3W against a 4++. you pay 235 points to get off 5W on a tank if you calculate very generously.. against heavy infantry you actually get even less, since you most often wound them anyway.. were you just get around ~2 extra wounds. He himself just sucks at range and lethal hits will MAYBE sometimes give you one more space marine body killed.. woho. As a melee character, against ANY decent opponent, it is literally dead before it can get there. as a monster you need to walk around terrain, and any good opponent will force you to leave it out in the open at one point or another. and if that ever happens, it is simply just dead.. unless your lucky in invasion fleet with the 5, maybe 4 fnp. and what do you get for the trouble? a 235 model that doesnt even have enough damage to outright kill a simple marine tank like a lancer or reaper, that hasent enough damage to kill a vortex beast.. all of which cost way less than him..yes you can kill 4 terminators maybe.. and what then? they fall back, and he gets annihilated.. if they dont almost kill him on the swing back.. so all he has left is the cp generation.. which IS good.. but not on a 235 points model.. simply spend the cp you want to spend.. you have enough CP anyway.. and look at the amount of stuff you can gett instead.. you can almost get TWO haruspex for the same cost... T11 14W, who can actually deal damage to something.. much more than just buff 3 wounds extra damage.. and haruspex arent even that great to begin with.. you can get 2 gargoyle troops and a lictor AND have points to spare you can fix your whole scoring instead by just taking 2 winged primes and a biovore and a pyrovore. to get a home defender, a utility piece and 2 units to score all thing behind enemie lines.. AND AGAIN still have points to spare.. simply take a whole zoan troop and a pyrovore for good messure and you are better off. even though they are themselve overcosted.. there are just limitless amounts of better options.. he will never do anything for you.. I promise. it is SUCH a bad unit. To be even considered beeing playable, he needs to cost 180 points. Everyone taking him, or telling you to take one, is just wrong. math does not check out.
you are just factually wrong in every instance about hive tyrants and swarmlord and its shows with your emotions because you are not useing your head: swarmlord is already a hard model to kill and was at one point laughable easy to kill in melee: now you jam this thing in the middle while your there assets kill what kills him with T gaurd you have 24+10 wounds to chew thru to get to him your opponet has to choose what stratagems to kill him with in melee now with new vect and trust me i have had marine players really struggle to spend 2 cp for AOC or lance stratagems which THEY need to punch up. Hive tyrants utlility of Lethal hits helps our already good exocrines and malenceptors hit up into T11+ which was already a strugle for us and keeps us mobile as well without penalitys pariah changes that slight but its not alot either.. and once malenceptors find there targets that -1 hit and wound aura matters alot more.. you praise harus lik they are gods... but you forget they are only good for one phase and are only good as long as you support them. Pariah missions do not support 1 phase armys im sorry you can throw math at me all you want but if a haru doesnt get to tis target its bout as useless as a hormagaunt fighting a titan its clear your passionate about nids you have had 5 comments all of which were negative all around there is some good in nids but its no longer a monstermash we wish it to be nor is it a Hoard list we wish it was. we have to pick our models properly to adapt and conqour this new meta for what it is... but the negative and wrong takes in this comment alone show you dont see the outlyers for certain models but only the negatives if all you do it sit at home and do math like its the only thing in your life then youll get nowhere and will not enjoy the game as it stands. trust me they butched my warrior bricks when crusher warriors got top 50 at lvo (i was the top 50 nids with 18 warriors still have the certificate for best nids to) but you dont hear me complaining.
@@samanthasales5177 not as fast as wolf jail but T8 infantry is already a hard sell to chew thru... alot of armys need lance or str 8 base to tangle with 24 wounds like that, once you stack on the defense layers T gaurd are hard to shift as a unit sure we cant spam them but they fufill there role well enough and the new LoD makes swarmlord the best melee threat in nids codex
@@joheras9330 I want to answer your points paragraph by paragraph. Swarmlord: I am talking about the swarmlord here too yes, I put him into brackets there on purpose though. I am talking about him only as an individual Model. Swarm lord is NOT a hard model to kill, it dies super easily against the smallest anti tank tickles. 2 failed saves are often enough to outright remove him from the game, something that a lancer (or similar profiles) can easily do on their own for just ~170 points. many units such as 3 eightbound or countless other models can easily do in melee. IF you decide to field him with 6 tyrant guard this ofcourse become a completely diffrent unit with a completely diffrent task. would I pay 410 points on this unit outside of invasion fleet or assimilation? no never. ofcourse not.. because having almost a quarter of your army invested into a unit that just sits in the middle generating CP and holding a single point will make you essential fight with 3/4 of an army.. because another good player would simply ignore those guys and work around them. Both together in invasion fleet or assimilation is a good unit, but it still costs so much that it is likely to make you lose more often than to win. and there are lots of armies that are good enough even without spending CP. Hive Tyrants: (This is not meant to be rude, just an over exaggeration to prove my point) In regards to the lethal hits aura of the Hive Tyrant, you are factually just wrong here, and it is so easy to see I can't believe people still use this thing. you know what helps you punch up against T11+ models? its not lethal hits.. its actual dedicated units to do that job.. OR even just simply more shots of the badly chosen targeting by adding another exocrine. We can even create an illegal scenario here to prove my point and tip the odds into your arguments favor. I already established that you get around 4.8 extra Wounds of damage through lethal hits against a T10+ 3+Sv model if calculated generously and 3W to a t10+ 4++ model. which for this test is the exact same against T11+ from all three exocrine sitting in the aura (which again his highly impractical). SO what if we would now simply replace the 235 pts model by yet another exocrine for just 135? WELL you would get 5 extra wounds of damage against a T11+ Sv3+ model, and the exact same 3W to a 4++ model. so EVEN IN the perfect lethal hits scenario, it adds NOTHING of value compared to just another of the same model.. and since people often only run 2 exocrine instead of 3, these numbers would get EVEN lower. And again, the lethal hits do nothing for other models. for Maleceptors these numbers just become worse and worse the higher that Strength profile is. another model of the same kind is simply always better and cost barely a bit more than half that the hive tyrant itself. (the maleceptor aura you mentioned has nothing to do with anything in this debate, so I will not go into how incredibly good maleceptors are). Haruspex: I do not praise Harus like they are gods.. you simply fell victim to the point of my argument.. Haruspex are really mediocre.. and if I compare a Unit to something that is SO MUCH better even though it is just mediocre, that just shows you how bad the unit we are talking about actually is.. Harusspex Is a model that is really underrated by Tyranid players, it forces your opponent into using real anti tank guns or massive amounts of mass shooting or efficient lethal hit usage, Getting through T11 (as a fellow tyranid player you should know) is VERY difficult.. and one of the biggest breakpoints in the entire game. and almost getting 2 of these for the cost of a single hive tyrant will always be more usful, either thorugh the opponent needing an entire turn to get rid of them, or they actually maybe reaching combat and doing much more work at a much lower cost. something a hive tyrant can almost never do reliably (outside of invasion fleet). My commets are negative: How are my 5 comments all negative? First of all, yes I agree that from the start of the edition I said that hive tyrants, swarmlord, tyrannofexes and carnifexes are overcosted. and even though some have changed a little, they still are very much so. Second, these were 3 of my comments, were as the other 2 were quite positiv, "praising" the winged prime and trygon and How I think they are actually better than people give them credit for. And to your last scentence, I think everyone has every right to complain when they see a problem, may they be right or wrong, discuss issues and maybe find solutions for themself or from others. I read your answer with the utmost respect, but you failed to convince me that these models are better than I think, because I am not only doing just math, I also play this game a whole lot more every day than most people would be willing to confess. And in practice, these models are even worse than in my math.. because when you see your high cost model just utterly failing at their task over and over again, you dislike a model more and more. Now ofcourse there are always several dozens of parts that play a role here. maybe I am just missunderstanding the unit, maybe I am just playing it wrong, maybe I just think diffrent about what the purpose of the unit is and handleing it wrong because of it.. nobody can say for certain. But when I just play with things I have tested that are good at doing the exact same thing these guys are suppose to do and it suddenly works and I win 7 out of 8 games over a weekend, I tend to notice a pattern. I also want to add: I dont say they are bad because I want them to be bad.. Actually Hive tyrants and carnifexes are my Favorite models in the entire game, they are the reason I started buying miniatures for this game.. I also dont say they are bad because I want them to be the best unit in the game. I say they are bad, because I palyed with them, tested them.. extensively.. and they almost always fail to deliver. I have played easily over 100 games with tyranids this year (I play other factions too) I frenquently retest models after conversations like this, and more often than not my predictions are just right.. or I guess I should say ours, since I am not doing all of this alone ofcourse, or playgroup trys to build highly competitive lists and I would say we are above avarage privately competitive players. yes we often overthink the game, but for dicussions like this it comes in quite handy. As everyone was overhyping the buffs this balance dataslate I knew exactly were they would end up at this point in time, which again is a mediocre lower mid tier.. I predicted 47% instead of 48%, I admit that, I did not factor in how many other factions were hit way to harder that we dont play. Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts. Give it try to just use more models instead of overcosted "big" guys with to much rules on them that dont do alot and see how it works out for you. Our solution for mediocre armies that dont have the biggest killing power, but some okayish damage profiles for the cost is to just add in more of these, and you will always find more success. Unless ofcourse you like relying on swingy rng, then ofcourse Tyranids are a dream come true.
@@leSmokySmoke i wilp respond in kind kokd then because im tired of you math nerds trying to justfy things using numbers as a justificastion on why X is bad. Swarmlord: if you are intentionally throwing swarmlord in the open to be shot by lqncers then thats a you problem. Trust me i hate lancers equally i hate custode tanks woth there lethwl d6+2 but im not gonna throw my 240 model im front of the barrel of guns until the end game so i domt know why you would either... as a melee piece he is arguably our strongest if not 2nd strongest cause of twinlinkee: would i put 85/170 points ofnablqtive wounds on him to keep them alive? Depends on how i feel its a price tag i teeter woth every time which is why bricks are bad in piriah all those examples ylu gave? They mean nothing to me cause its a DIcE game end of the day. Ill concede on tyrants and there lethal aura. I dokt kmow why 235 was a point cost for them but Gw hates tyrants ots why we lost 2 wounds str and ap across the bpard for utlity is what it is lethsl ove seen has ultimatly dont nothing for us cause we dont have full reroll acess unless your ooe carnofexs. Ive played nids for yesrs 10th destrpyed my warriors to a poimt where im ashamed to look st em but every once in awhile its fun to break em out. Yes some match ups suck like T12 but let me remimd you its equqlly worse for other factions and half thr time killing in this game doesnt win games. But math nerds piss me off because you fan throw numbere at my face all day but you wont change how i feel overqll for nods: we still wim 50% of our games dispite your negwtogity qnd you can sugercoat itnall you want but thats how i see it ane others who peep these videos nids arnt ment to be qm easy faction to play: its 3d chess for us we hsve to be 5 steps ahead of our opponets unlike gaurd or world eaters.
@Viewer41 I mean we see models all the time in tournaments which are totally different than the box kit Yea obviously this one would be a bit cheeky but one could almost argue it's better than a legit different model acting as a proxy for example
Most TO's and Players will not care if it looks like a toxicrene or like a kraken or like a gorgon or like an anime character as long as the model size and base are almost identical as the one from GW model kit. However if you remove/replace a mandatory piece of a model (like the tencacles arms on the toxicrene) for something that is not similar in size you will have an unfair advantage over people using the original kit (i.e you toxicrene will be way easier to hide from your opponent guns)... that is modeling advantage and is worth a DQ on tournaments.
Well it's +12 if you count over watch too. And they can still pile on the save, at 3 dam, you can't half it out. I don't think anyone should use them out side of assimilation swarm though. They lack synergy.
once you have 2 tyrannofexes in your army, and they both fail all their shots two turn in a row. and you wasted 380 points on that.. you never take them again.. they are mediocre at best. still heavily overpriced leman russes
Nuerotyrant, the wifi range extender of units
😂 love it
I love my bug Wi-Fi router
You’re sleeping on genestealers+broodlord. They absolutely wreck infantry. Into vehicles/monsters, especially toughness 10+, but against infantry, especially elite or semi elite infantry like terminators or ordinary space marines, they punch extremely hard, are extremely fast especially in vanguard onslaught, and are surprisingly difficult to kill especially in melee with the -1 to hit. They can almost one turn a 5 man of terminators, and can one turn a 10 man of ordinary space marines or almost one turn a 6 man of Gravis armor. Since most of their attacks are the actual genestealers damage 1 attacks and the dev wounds gets a lot of them through tough saves they also can do quite well against tanky damage reduction invulnerable save units like ctan or Deathwing knights so they can generally kill these things pretty well too. And since they’re so fast, they can normally catch these slower tanky units in positions where they’re not in good positions yet and kill them. Plus in invasion fleet with sustained hits or lethal hits and adrenal glands their damage can get even crazier because both help a lot against their respective targets (lethal hits helps with high toughness stuff like ctan or knights, sustained helps with stuff like terminators or gravis). They’re a bit costly, the broodlord maybe could take a 10 point reduction, but even as is you can make their points back while using them in a way that prevents important units from getting to objectives.
This. Didn't a Tyranid player just grab #3 at the FLG Lonestar Open? Undefeated with a Vanguard list sporting among other things 3 Broodlords and 3x10 Genestealers. Effective glasshammers enjoying heavily terrained boards.
I finally finished painting my Broodlord & 10 Genestealers and have managed to get 5 games in with them against sisters & CSM. They absolutely smash. Wasn’t expecting too much, but I was running synaptic nexus and they just mulched anything in their way. Too out 3 Paragon Warsuits & 6 wounds off a Rhino in a single round of combat amongst many impressive feats
With the 5+ FNP in invasion fleet I suspect they’ll be surprisingly capable of surviving there really well and Vanguard is an obvious fit
100%. Genestealers with Broodlord are NASTY, especially with all the Vanguard support. The squad rarely ever misses more that two or three attack rolls out of it's 45 and averages I think like like 7-8 Devastating Wounds (even without the rerolls when an objective). Add in that Synapse boost and a potential +1 to wound from either a Neurolictor or the Surprise Assault stratagem, they can easily shred through whatever they slam into, and Vanguard's Advance + Charge makes sure they'll get into melee range *fast*. Even on their own, a squad of 5 makes a nice objective skirmisher unit.
Played my buddies death guard today, my gene-stealers and broodlord snuck right up to 20 poxwalkers and typhus. Killed the entire squad and character with damage still left to spare in one fight phase. Out of all my units he is by far most afraid of that one.
They went on to kill a mephitic blight hauler, 10 plague marines, and take 4 wounds off Mortarion before finally biting the bullet. Absolute monsters.
Give them rapid regeneration stratagem for FNP and they become real hard to deal with
Ranged Tyranid Warriors are doing less damage into most targets than a pack of termagants. Its almost laughable how little damage they do
And most of my warriors are built with guns, I remember the good old days of warriors being able to get like str 8 AP 2 with Boneswords, and the deathspitter was basically a better bolter
Trygon is expensive. BUT it is one of the best mission tools / mind game units in the game actually, espeically with a winged prime(that you probably take anyway)
First of all, it is basically unscreenable.. so you will ALWAYS get your missions done.. and then, SINCE it is basically unscreenable, people will often ignore screening entirely, making it that much easier to score with the winged prime instead, and just using the trygon as a backline shredder. you can drop them both, winged prime does the action, while the trygon suddenly sits on the enemy objective, or gets a charge off outright killing something wih a bunch of S10 attacks.
Or rapid ingress him first, and then drop the winged prime in your movement phase to support him where he needs it while doing a mission.
and then they both just sit there, FORCING your opponent to move the hell back quickly and deal with them unless they want to lose their home objective and give up a ton of points.
They make SO much space for the rest of your army.
If they would cost 150 points, I would put them in every single list.
I thought they changed the swarmlord so it's like an aura. As it always increases strategyms within a range... It's still the same on app as once per battle increase strat cost..
They did change it, it's in the errata and not on the datasheet
Just started nids so this is super helpful. Not doing anything super competitive just with friends but get to know what units could be helpful
Depends on what you want to play and how detached you want to be ?
There are lots of minis tyranids for sale on the second-hand market.
@@DMDuncan37 definitely noticed that today on eBay. I don't know any of the detachments and I don't feel like buying the book right now to figure it out. Just kind of looking at the data sheet cards that were free online. Right now I like the idea of backline shooting bugs with the tervigon going up the board with giant spawns of termagaunts.
@@DMDuncan37 also love the idea of dropping the mines in the game. I forget which bug does that
@@phillipbritton3836to go wahapedia point ru 👍
Biovore
There are a few instances with this list i dont agree with, although i do over all agree. For instance, In assimilation swarm, Ripper swarms are really really valuable. I also dont feel like the Neurolictor is really a stable anymore, more a hard carry. He used to, but given the higher strength, new rupturefex and Zoans hitting on 2s with big guns never tire so you cant tie them up, you now have more opportunities to kill tough opponents that you couldnt before.
I run Invasion fleet primarily, and i just dont need Neurolictors anymore. I would still take one if they were cheaper. But if you already have Tfexes, zoans and exocrines in your list, you dont need a neurolictor.
Winged tyranid prime, is the single best scoring unit now. having at least one will auto score you all the action in enemy DZ mission by himself for the cheapest cost. AND/OR force opponents to screen against it, making your onslaught that much easier. basically always take 1.
10:39 whats not to love, it marks your target and lets everything reroll ones lol its just awesome!
Truly....make datasheet tierlist have no sense without considering Detatchment as priority value.
So suggest for the future :
1 - Invasion dataS. Tier list
2 - PsyNexsus dataS tier list
3- Invasion dataS tier list
and so on,
and for this purpose I suggest you use only 3 categories :
Stample, Hard carry, good.
More content for your channel
Genestealers with Broodlord absolutely slap any and all kinds of infantry off the table, and can then make a very good roadblock with their invulns and Invasion Fleet FNP. Recently used them against Custodes and they were a real nuisance to their elite high value infantry.
Finally someone who put the Norn in hard carry tiers. The last update gave him a lot. I play 2. The problem is : you become quickly addict, it is very confrontable to put Norn on objectives. However they still cost very expensive and if they die quickly it can be a real issue.
Why soo hard with Van Ryan Leapers ? It is quite nice to screen and box an opponent close his base, making sure that he will stay close to his base turn 1 ... slowing all his strategy.
Ah the tier-anid list
24:34 only reason you would ever bing is if you needed a 4th haruspex, that was lesser then it in every way
I smashed a riptide with the acid spray 10 attacks. He was in the open. 8 damage from 4 dice is epic. Though a little more expensive than the neurotyrant. I cant see myself taking the rupture cannon if i dont have an exocrene. Its only 2 shots.
Harpy is definitely overcosted but it is interesting! It on average kills assassins and other small single model utility models with just the bombs. Plus a 2+ BS on stranglethorn can be good at poking damage at stealthy targets. Also has vanguard invader keyword like the tyrannocyte!
There is a reason 3 countries took 3 squads of 10 Genestealers, each lead by a Broodlord.
Im not saying its good, but i think the way to rate sporocysts is in assim. swarm as a way to drop mines to die and reclaim biomass to heal.
I wish they gave it the harvester keyword. Still wouldn't make it good but it feels like it should have it.
You are severely underestimating the psychophage. In normal play its c tier. In assimilation swarm it is S tier. The 6 up FNP doesn't sound like much, but a hauruspex on 1 wound is vastly scarier than 0 wounds.
It is also very good at secondaries. You loose no offensive power if it gives up shooting and charging, as it has no offensive power. And in the off hand chance you need to kill mortarian, its anti-psyker.
The nerf to unending swarm feels an awful lot like someone high enough in gw got stomped by them or something
They were ok but not great and that nerf was huuge. Effectively removing the detachment from the game
Our only big tournament wins were unending swarm
@@BLUEBOYISLEDGE nids were under almost everyone else. Whether or not unending swarm was the best version of nids is besides the point
@Wes-xk6hl I know how bad Nids were before the Pariah Nexus update. AND the Reinforcements nerf wasn't because of nids. It was because of Green Tide.
@@BLUEBOYISLEDGEGreen Tide doesn't have a reinforcement strat... 🥴
@@TacticalTortoise uh oh, am I thinking of resurrecting models
I'm new to nid's. Quick question, can you have both a hive tyrant on foot and a flying hive tyrant in the same list ?
Yes
You can have up to 3 of each if you'de like, but you probably wouldn't. You can take up to 3 of any datasheet excluding epic heroes and 6 of any battleline unit or dedicated transport.
I’d say the Norn Assimilator is best in Synaptic Nexus
I second the genestealers, people overvalue them a lot. The melee warriors outperform them sooo much right now with s6 twin linked.
They need their Broodlord, but they are devastating with him. Literally, devastating wounds are so easy to fish out with these guys
Warriors are slow and dont have 5++.
Oh fun, a tieranid list. Side not... Zoanthropes are SOOOOOOO good now. I think the Broodlord and genestealers are super solid in vanguard onslaught. Being able to stuff up your opponents front line turn one is super handy.
I find the von Ryan's leapers super valuable vs Dark Eldar.
Explain.
@vaettra1589 fight first, free heroic intervention (usefull as DE tend to decide where the charge will be), loads of attacks, and dmg 1 isn't a problem since eldar mainly have 1 wound.
I’m experimenting with the tyranocyte transporting a psychophage. 205 points for 5 OC and 2 big based models with deep strike. Both are T9 10W models and the psychophage has a natural 5+++ while giving the tyraocyte 6+++.
So they either way they need to chew through roughly 14W from the phage first before 10W from the cyte. Or roughly 11-12W from the cyte before 14 wounds from the phage.
I’m trying it out in crusher stampede as a distraction on secure objectives to hold for enough time to let my battle turtles waddle over.
I like the idea, but 205 points that can't do any damage is kinda of a waste. I think a tank with some sword brethren would make minced meat of them.
In my experience, Warriors and Genestealers are pretty close to each other on their overall performance... Which one is better depends a lot on stuff like your detachment of choice, your general gameplan/playstyle, and the offensive/defensive profiles you expect to see during a tournament.
Sometimes Genestealers will perform better and sometimes warriors will perform better... it is up to each pilot to find out which one fulfills most of their needs.
You didn’t mention that the funny transport thing can embark another version of itself. So you can have 6 embarked in one another and then put swarmy in the last one.
Ive always wanted to know why melee warriors are so much better than ranged. Does someone have a good explanation for this.
melee warriors hit hard into targets higher than their weightclass and have an actual niche as the tyranids strong melee infantry. In that role the only contender they have are genestealers which do less damage
Ranged warriors atm are only decent into squishy units and are outshined by lictors, hormagaunts, raveners etc when it comes to efficent smal combat/utility/scoring units
@@galling2052 thanks for explaining it. I've always seen people say they're better but never explained why.
giant amount of attacks that get reroll wounds, 6 melee warriors is 36 attacks, and then its S6 with the synapse buff in melee, S6/T6 is a huge bracket to be in over S5/T5. With twin linked you can punch up to bigger targets.
Also ranged warriors hit on 4s is a huge feels bad and you can just take an exocrine instead
ruclips.net/video/WxWWGQKd2YY/видео.htmlsi=rFQtAZ1i01N-u9R6
the crux of it is honestly that ranged warriors arent actually that great at shooting. Hitting on 4's, guns are alright, but dont really punch up that high. They are good for clearing light to medium infantry...which is something PLENTY of other Tyranid units are able to do.
Melee warriors however are amazing at their melee role, especially with the prime to help cheese a bit of extra movement for charges and grant them the vanguard invader keyword for that detachment (though they can do work anywhere). High volume of STR 6 attacks, that can reroll 1's, with twin linked, and -2 AP, and sustained will do WORK even against heavy targets above their weight class, and absolutely delete things at or under it as long as they can be delivered to the target
Ranged warriors honestly just need to be able to hit on 3's, and probably get some other useful ability if they ever wanted to be worth taking right now
I think it's pretty hilarious that Exocrines got buffed du to complaints from Tyranid players. :-P I mean, yes, it was not the best shooting unit in the game, but for their point cost they already did a good job and they are soooo much harder to get rid of than something like Havocs (which are back up to the same cost as them).
Luckily the buff from 8->9 is weird mathematically. It modifies the wound rolls on mostly reliant on T9 transports and weirdly T8 minions. In every other toughness bracket it means the same wounds roll. The biggest thing is the flavor of spending 85% of your spinal column gives you at least a S9 weapon😂
Im still not a fan of the norn emissary, they are still just so squishy for their pointscost and still so limp.
For whopping 105p less you get maleceptor who is conditionally as if not more durable and is outdamaging the norn outright into infantry and light vehicles and the norn is not a vehicle killer ether.
I think the norns are just such bad design just barely held up by 15OC
For 275 points norns should be T12.
Thanks.
I don't agree with the tervigon, a mediocre unit is really not much. It's cheap than before.
I often play it with 20 or 40 termo.
It's a good unit with these buffs.
In an invasion fleet with a fnp, it's solid, and many gaunts allow it to hold the ground.
Ranged warriors can actually have 2 vemon cannons
Don't think this is correct
1 venom cannon 1 barbed stranger if youre taking 3 warriors
13:43 its hard to remove my hive gaurd with shock cannons, the for sure 12 attacks is really nice after the exocrine shot, and if you can get a pyrovore spurt off you strip there cover so in my army they have such a big overwatch threat. And they are relatively tanky
Tfex, Neurotyrant, OOE + Carnifexes all have better OV
@@galling2052 ya non of them can threaten overwatch
@@Deathgaming112 everything i have mentioned has Way better overwatch than the limp nonweapons Hive gard have XD.
The Tfex and the NT both have scary Torrent weapons.
The carnifexes with OOE can Pick up entire squishy units on overwatch with the sheer volume of shots, Full rerolls to hit and sustained/lethals.
Hiveguard barely do anything when they Shoot normally so who cares if they hit Overwatch on 4+.
@@galling2052 your wrong non of the units you mention can take out a transports, or anything related to anti tank, they will normally have a 3+ save and a 4 + inv so hive guard punch into that very effectively alot better then the opts you said
@@Deathgaming112 Oh i did not say Overwatch against vehicles.
But Tguard are not good against those either. They do an average of 5D against the usual T9 3+ transport.
How can you say that carnifexes are good..
Have you played Games with them?
Have you seen a admech using the Robots? Did you notice how bad admechs are? Did you notice how Bad the Robots are? Do you know how many Points they cost? Oh right. They cost 90 Points..
Now here is the Kicker, they have basically the Same datasheet AND admech has better rules to Support them for Combat.
Carnifexes cost 125 POINTS!!
for hitting only on 4+..
With terrible Range weapons.. and terrible melee weapons in top.
They are T9 8W which means they they can be killed by even the weakest semi anti Tank weapons.. hell even tyranids can easily kill them...
Haruspex exist. Why would you ever Run a T9 8W hitting on 4+ Low Attack Monster, when you can Pick a T11 14W hitting on 3+ high Attack Monster for the EXACT same cost.
EVEN with full hit rerolls they are so so so so much worse on average..
I genuienly am frustrated that they killed my Favoriten model and the reason I got into the Game..
But These Guys SHOULD cost 90 Points and I am not exaggerating.
After the Point drop Hype, people will realise that they are still ONLY okay at that price..
Because they are just an easy to kill Body that do nothing. Thats all they are now.
I had a full carnifex/screamer killer Army in 9th. They were hitting on 3+, they moved fast, they wounded every Tank on a 3+
While beeing unkillable with -1D tanken..
Now they are just pathetic and I have to buy gigantic ugly derpi big blobhead screamer Killers that are also overcosted and are only mediocre..
They are good specifically with OOE in Invasion fleet and you at max take 2 of them. For rapid ingress play and overwatch.
In melee they just about kill any hard target without 4+ invuln.
In overwatch they can pick up the average untility unit or cripple the average squshy glass cannon unit.
In every other reguard i agree. Carnifexes are on Old one eye lifesupport atm.
Pure injustice
@@galling2052 thats a 390 point investment.
how is overwatch useful? When you get around 9 shots with stranglethorn. thats 2,75 succesful hits after rerolls. lets say 3 hits where then maybe 2 wound, one gets saved and you kill a single spacemarine..
4+ invuln rarely matter for them since they are only ap -2 or ap -3, statistically thats not a big deal getting 1ap less after everything that comes before this step..
when you rapid ingres them, you still need to give them synapse SOMEHOW if you want to kill tanks or terminators, because otherwise they kill nothing with their S9 attacks.. and if you go crushing claws you still only get 8 attacks from 2 models, thats 6 successful hits after rerolls. 4 successful wound rolls and then 3,4 failed saves against a single T10 3+Sv model.
Thats ~15,3 Damage.
So in conclusion, you need to be lucky to successfully deal 12-14W of damage to a normal tank to be able to kill it, and you can very much just fail too..
Either way you spend 250 points to probably kill a 170pts tank.
And that is before the fact that they likely get killed before they get there, or the moment after their first kill after you rapid ingress them and overwatched or give them the fnp and spend 2 cp on this unit to do a whole bunch of nothing..
for the same cost, just having a lone OOE and two lone Harus does SO much more work.. not only are you present in 3 diffrent locations.. but the enemy has to commit ALOT more shooting into killing each of these guys in different locations.. not to mention that they would need real anti tank weapons to deal with harus instead of just any S10 weapons, plus you get basically the same attack, yes no rerolls and one less ap (which is not the biggest deal as we mentioned with 4+ invulns basically everywhere) but hitting on 3+ to begin with is just slightly worse than rerolls. PLUS you get 14! extra S7 attacks per model, and a actually situationally good anti character sniping tool, so they are even multifunctional. and they work against ALL tanks, even superheavys.
And Haruspexes we all know are barely okay too.. so that just goes to show how bad carnifexes truly are at 125 points each..
yes you CAN run them in invasion fleet and dont be completely sad to have them. and maybe with a whole unit of 5+ fnp it is sometimes okay and they survive against some armies.. but they never allow you to punch up against better armies.. and sadly we need units that do exactly that.
@@leSmokySmoke the loadout is crushling claws + devourers or 2xdeathspitters/2xdevourers.
So overwatch scores around 8-9 hits(claws+devourers/2xdeathspitters) or 16-18(2xdevouers), with sustained or lethal.
The claws are making waves again because they are S13 now.
We have synapse in overabundance now.
They are are better than harus in invasion because of stragagem efficency. 5+++ and ingress being very good on them.
Haruspexes in general do not see much play... im even a haru fan, but i can not deny that they struggle... hard, hit hardish but slow and squishy and outshined.
And yes OOE sees play on its own as well, the carnifexes are very much optional.
@@galling2052 its 7,3 hits with 2x devourers after rerolls, 14,6 with sustained.
and then you have a bunch S6 0 ap attacks.. 7 0ap lethal hits will do nothing so I can safely skip that part.
that would be good for killing trash units I agree.. but taking devourers would never come to my mind ever. 250 points for an anti infantry unit sound like an aweful idea in general..
and yes I agree with the fnp as I mentioned. but this whole investment still is not worth it. they will always die to a single shootingphase. and remember that it is ALSO way more efficient to target a single unit for the enemy.. for example oath gets full rerolls to 3 models then, instead of just against one. they get +1ap to 3 models for something like ridge runners or scout sentinels.. or any other combat trick that basically any army has.
they simply die against everything, they will never survive a battleround against even the most mediocre armies in the game.
Stop cooking bro you’ve burnt down the kitchen
You're not my mom!
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NEVER, EVER take a hive tyrant (or swarmlord). it is SUCH a terribly bad unit. it is simply SO SO overcosted is all.. the ONLY useful thing he has in the cp generation... other armies pay like 100 points for such a model.. having this ability on a monster that isnt really a monster is just such a bad combination..
it is just SO easy to kill, unless your maybe in invasion fleet with the enhancement.. but that again is a 260 point model then.. for just a T10 10W model...
as a range support it is UTTERLY trash..
assault does literally nothing for this army.. our small range guys already have assault, and our big guns want to be stationary ideally and youe no longer can do actions anyway.. so this is a literally nothing ability.
Lethal hits is NEVER, EVER worth 235 points. NEVER. On exocrines we have done excessive testing, on himself, on gaunts, on gargoyles.
EVEN if you force yourself to have ALL three exocrines next to each other to get the full benefit, even if that is a terrible idea.. you get around ~4.8 extra Wounds off a single tank with a 3+Sv! or just 3W against a 4++. you pay 235 points to get off 5W on a tank if you calculate very generously.. against heavy infantry you actually get even less, since you most often wound them anyway.. were you just get around ~2 extra wounds.
He himself just sucks at range and lethal hits will MAYBE sometimes give you one more space marine body killed.. woho.
As a melee character, against ANY decent opponent, it is literally dead before it can get there. as a monster you need to walk around terrain, and any good opponent will force you to leave it out in the open at one point or another. and if that ever happens, it is simply just dead.. unless your lucky in invasion fleet with the 5, maybe 4 fnp.
and what do you get for the trouble? a 235 model that doesnt even have enough damage to outright kill a simple marine tank like a lancer or reaper, that hasent enough damage to kill a vortex beast.. all of which cost way less than him..yes you can kill 4 terminators maybe.. and what then? they fall back, and he gets annihilated.. if they dont almost kill him on the swing back..
so all he has left is the cp generation.. which IS good.. but not on a 235 points model.. simply spend the cp you want to spend.. you have enough CP anyway..
and look at the amount of stuff you can gett instead.. you can almost get TWO haruspex for the same cost... T11 14W, who can actually deal damage to something.. much more than just buff 3 wounds extra damage.. and haruspex arent even that great to begin with..
you can get 2 gargoyle troops and a lictor AND have points to spare
you can fix your whole scoring instead by just taking 2 winged primes and a biovore and a pyrovore. to get a home defender, a utility piece and 2 units to score all thing behind enemie lines.. AND AGAIN still have points to spare..
simply take a whole zoan troop and a pyrovore for good messure and you are better off. even though they are themselve overcosted..
there are just limitless amounts of better options.. he will never do anything for you.. I promise. it is SUCH a bad unit.
To be even considered beeing playable, he needs to cost 180 points.
Everyone taking him, or telling you to take one, is just wrong. math does not check out.
I think the swarmlord with TG have a play. The LoD is pretty big considering factions need CP to make their combos and the SW melee is pretty good.
you are just factually wrong in every instance about hive tyrants and swarmlord and its shows with your emotions because you are not useing your head: swarmlord is already a hard model to kill and was at one point laughable easy to kill in melee: now you jam this thing in the middle while your there assets kill what kills him with T gaurd you have 24+10 wounds to chew thru to get to him your opponet has to choose what stratagems to kill him with in melee now with new vect and trust me i have had marine players really struggle to spend 2 cp for AOC or lance stratagems which THEY need to punch up.
Hive tyrants utlility of Lethal hits helps our already good exocrines and malenceptors hit up into T11+ which was already a strugle for us and keeps us mobile as well without penalitys pariah changes that slight but its not alot either.. and once malenceptors find there targets that -1 hit and wound aura matters alot more..
you praise harus lik they are gods... but you forget they are only good for one phase and are only good as long as you support them. Pariah missions do not support 1 phase armys im sorry you can throw math at me all you want but if a haru doesnt get to tis target its bout as useless as a hormagaunt fighting a titan
its clear your passionate about nids you have had 5 comments all of which were negative all around there is some good in nids but its no longer a monstermash we wish it to be nor is it a Hoard list we wish it was. we have to pick our models properly to adapt and conqour this new meta for what it is... but the negative and wrong takes in this comment alone show you dont see the outlyers for certain models but only the negatives if all you do it sit at home and do math like its the only thing in your life then youll get nowhere and will not enjoy the game as it stands. trust me they butched my warrior bricks when crusher warriors got top 50 at lvo (i was the top 50 nids with 18 warriors still have the certificate for best nids to) but you dont hear me complaining.
@@samanthasales5177 not as fast as wolf jail but T8 infantry is already a hard sell to chew thru... alot of armys need lance or str 8 base to tangle with 24 wounds like that, once you stack on the defense layers T gaurd are hard to shift as a unit sure we cant spam them but they fufill there role well enough and the new LoD makes swarmlord the best melee threat in nids codex
@@joheras9330 I want to answer your points paragraph by paragraph.
Swarmlord:
I am talking about the swarmlord here too yes, I put him into brackets there on purpose though. I am talking about him only as an individual Model.
Swarm lord is NOT a hard model to kill, it dies super easily against the smallest anti tank tickles. 2 failed saves are often enough to outright remove him from the game, something that a lancer (or similar profiles) can easily do on their own for just ~170 points. many units such as 3 eightbound or countless other models can easily do in melee.
IF you decide to field him with 6 tyrant guard this ofcourse become a completely diffrent unit with a completely diffrent task.
would I pay 410 points on this unit outside of invasion fleet or assimilation? no never. ofcourse not.. because having almost a quarter of your army invested into a unit that just sits in the middle generating CP and holding a single point will make you essential fight with 3/4 of an army.. because another good player would simply ignore those guys and work around them.
Both together in invasion fleet or assimilation is a good unit, but it still costs so much that it is likely to make you lose more often than to win.
and there are lots of armies that are good enough even without spending CP.
Hive Tyrants:
(This is not meant to be rude, just an over exaggeration to prove my point)
In regards to the lethal hits aura of the Hive Tyrant, you are factually just wrong here, and it is so easy to see I can't believe people still use this thing.
you know what helps you punch up against T11+ models? its not lethal hits.. its actual dedicated units to do that job.. OR even just simply more shots of the badly chosen targeting by adding another exocrine.
We can even create an illegal scenario here to prove my point and tip the odds into your arguments favor.
I already established that you get around 4.8 extra Wounds of damage through lethal hits against a T10+ 3+Sv model if calculated generously and 3W to a t10+ 4++ model. which for this test is the exact same against T11+ from all three exocrine sitting in the aura (which again his highly impractical).
SO what if we would now simply replace the 235 pts model by yet another exocrine for just 135? WELL you would get 5 extra wounds of damage against a T11+ Sv3+ model, and the exact same 3W to a 4++ model.
so EVEN IN the perfect lethal hits scenario, it adds NOTHING of value compared to just another of the same model.. and since people often only run 2 exocrine instead of 3, these numbers would get EVEN lower.
And again, the lethal hits do nothing for other models. for Maleceptors these numbers just become worse and worse the higher that Strength profile is. another model of the same kind is simply always better and cost barely a bit more than half that the hive tyrant itself.
(the maleceptor aura you mentioned has nothing to do with anything in this debate, so I will not go into how incredibly good maleceptors are).
Haruspex:
I do not praise Harus like they are gods.. you simply fell victim to the point of my argument.. Haruspex are really mediocre.. and if I compare a Unit to something that is SO MUCH better even though it is just mediocre, that just shows you how bad the unit we are talking about actually is..
Harusspex Is a model that is really underrated by Tyranid players, it forces your opponent into using real anti tank guns or massive amounts of mass shooting or efficient lethal hit usage, Getting through T11 (as a fellow tyranid player you should know) is VERY difficult.. and one of the biggest breakpoints in the entire game.
and almost getting 2 of these for the cost of a single hive tyrant will always be more usful, either thorugh the opponent needing an entire turn to get rid of them, or they actually maybe reaching combat and doing much more work at a much lower cost. something a hive tyrant can almost never do reliably (outside of invasion fleet).
My commets are negative:
How are my 5 comments all negative? First of all, yes I agree that from the start of the edition I said that hive tyrants, swarmlord, tyrannofexes and carnifexes are overcosted. and even though some have changed a little, they still are very much so.
Second, these were 3 of my comments, were as the other 2 were quite positiv, "praising" the winged prime and trygon and How I think they are actually better than people give them credit for.
And to your last scentence, I think everyone has every right to complain when they see a problem, may they be right or wrong, discuss issues and maybe find solutions for themself or from others.
I read your answer with the utmost respect, but you failed to convince me that these models are better than I think, because I am not only doing just math, I also play this game a whole lot more every day than most people would be willing to confess.
And in practice, these models are even worse than in my math.. because when you see your high cost model just utterly failing at their task over and over again, you dislike a model more and more.
Now ofcourse there are always several dozens of parts that play a role here. maybe I am just missunderstanding the unit, maybe I am just playing it wrong, maybe I just think diffrent about what the purpose of the unit is and handleing it wrong because of it.. nobody can say for certain.
But when I just play with things I have tested that are good at doing the exact same thing these guys are suppose to do and it suddenly works and I win 7 out of 8 games over a weekend, I tend to notice a pattern.
I also want to add:
I dont say they are bad because I want them to be bad.. Actually Hive tyrants and carnifexes are my Favorite models in the entire game, they are the reason I started buying miniatures for this game..
I also dont say they are bad because I want them to be the best unit in the game.
I say they are bad, because I palyed with them, tested them.. extensively.. and they almost always fail to deliver.
I have played easily over 100 games with tyranids this year (I play other factions too)
I frenquently retest models after conversations like this, and more often than not my predictions are just right.. or I guess I should say ours, since I am not doing all of this alone ofcourse, or playgroup trys to build highly competitive lists and I would say we are above avarage privately competitive players. yes we often overthink the game, but for dicussions like this it comes in quite handy. As everyone was overhyping the buffs this balance dataslate I knew exactly were they would end up at this point in time, which again is a mediocre lower mid tier.. I predicted 47% instead of 48%, I admit that, I did not factor in how many other factions were hit way to harder that we dont play.
Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts. Give it try to just use more models instead of overcosted "big" guys with to much rules on them that dont do alot and see how it works out for you.
Our solution for mediocre armies that dont have the biggest killing power, but some okayish damage profiles for the cost is to just add in more of these, and you will always find more success. Unless ofcourse you like relying on swingy rng, then ofcourse Tyranids are a dream come true.
@@leSmokySmoke i wilp respond in kind kokd then because im tired of you math nerds trying to justfy things using numbers as a justificastion on why X is bad.
Swarmlord: if you are intentionally throwing swarmlord in the open to be shot by lqncers then thats a you problem. Trust me i hate lancers equally i hate custode tanks woth there lethwl d6+2 but im not gonna throw my 240 model im front of the barrel of guns until the end game so i domt know why you would either... as a melee piece he is arguably our strongest if not 2nd strongest cause of twinlinkee: would i put 85/170 points ofnablqtive wounds on him to keep them alive? Depends on how i feel its a price tag i teeter woth every time which is why bricks are bad in piriah all those examples ylu gave? They mean nothing to me cause its a DIcE game end of the day.
Ill concede on tyrants and there lethal aura. I dokt kmow why 235 was a point cost for them but Gw hates tyrants ots why we lost 2 wounds str and ap across the bpard for utlity is what it is lethsl ove seen has ultimatly dont nothing for us cause we dont have full reroll acess unless your ooe carnofexs.
Ive played nids for yesrs 10th destrpyed my warriors to a poimt where im ashamed to look st em but every once in awhile its fun to break em out. Yes some match ups suck like T12 but let me remimd you its equqlly worse for other factions and half thr time killing in this game doesnt win games. But math nerds piss me off because you fan throw numbere at my face all day but you wont change how i feel overqll for nods: we still wim 50% of our games dispite your negwtogity qnd you can sugercoat itnall you want but thats how i see it ane others who peep these videos nids arnt ment to be qm easy faction to play: its 3d chess for us we hsve to be 5 steps ahead of our opponets unlike gaurd or world eaters.
Cant u literally just model the toxicren without the tentacles lol
If you play competitive, then no.
You'd get in trouble for "Modelling for Advantage".
If you play casual, then go for it if you want.
@Viewer41 I mean we see models all the time in tournaments which are totally different than the box kit
Yea obviously this one would be a bit cheeky but one could almost argue it's better than a legit different model acting as a proxy for example
Most TO's and Players will not care if it looks like a toxicrene or like a kraken or like a gorgon or like an anime character as long as the model size and base are almost identical as the one from GW model kit.
However if you remove/replace a mandatory piece of a model (like the tencacles arms on the toxicrene) for something that is not similar in size you will have an unfair advantage over people using the original kit (i.e you toxicrene will be way easier to hide from your opponent guns)... that is modeling advantage and is worth a DQ on tournaments.
I would personally rate hive gaurd in mediocre maybe even good, they do get 24 attacks and do 3 damage so every failed wound is very much felt
???? They got 6 attacks, not 24 with -1AP…with Cover everywhere you do exactly what kind of damage??? They kill 1 Marine per turn…what an epic unit.
6 of them have only 12 shots at AP-1.
Even with D3 and antivehicle that is nothing. Nothing goes through.
They are just awfull
Well it's +12 if you count over watch too. And they can still pile on the save, at 3 dam, you can't half it out. I don't think anyone should use them out side of assimilation swarm though. They lack synergy.
@@Deathgaming112lol you can't just count OW as part of their base amount of shots
@@BLUEBOYISLEDGE why not?
once you have 2 tyrannofexes in your army, and they both fail all their shots two turn in a row. and you wasted 380 points on that.. you never take them again.. they are mediocre at best.
still heavily overpriced leman russes