Schmeisser SP-15 Straight-Pull AR-15 .223 Rem With CMMG .22lr Ciener-type Conversion Kit
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- So what we're looking at here is, if we put a CMMG .22 Ciener-type conversion set in a straight-pull Schmeisser SP-15 (with no gas, so not semi-auto), what is the difference in point of impact, of grouping capacity, and when we put it back to .223, will we have problems with extraction due to all the kak that the .22 set will deposit in the chamber and throat?
Let's find out!
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What you have done is even more critical in Germany. You converted a bolt action rifle into a semi automatic, without tools and only legal parts. Any German gun regulator would be outraged.
Well done :D
Best wishes from Germany
Funktioniert das tatsächlich? Dann müsste doch der Lower eigentlich auch mit jedem anderen Wechselsystem kompatibel sein oder?
@@niklaskoch4931 Natürlich ist er das. Der Lower bestimmt ja nicht die Funktion der Waffe, sondern nimmt die entsprechen Teile lediglich auf.
@@0Kahless0 Antwort. Hab mich nur gewundert, weil ja mittlerweile Lauer von AR 15 tatsächlich bedürfnispflichtig sind und ich ja keine einfach so kaufen kann. Hingegen eine Waffe auf der gelben WBK ja kein Bedürfnis erfordert das bedeutet ja ich könnte mir, sofern ich bereits ein normales EA 15 Besitzer mit einem Wechselsystem, dann über den Eintrag in der gelben Wbk eine zweite Funktionsfähigke halbautomatische bauen. Mir ist klar, dass man dafür eine Waffen Bearbeitung Lizenz benötigt. Nur dass es theoretisch möglich ist, wusste ich nicht.
Genau aus dem Grund hat man das Bedürfnis auf diese Dinge ausgeweitet. @@niklaskoch4931
Just a quick note about French legislation. You won't find any straight pull .223s over here since the ammo is still cat B. However, these straight pull Schmeissers are quite common in .222 since that would make the gun and the ammo cat C.
If you want to go along with .223, just jump through the hoops and get a "proper" semi-auto AR-15 😊
Thanks for the good video!
why the restriction on .223? is it due to being military cartridge? i am curious how the laws for ownership work in general over in france
@@911clutch Dead spot on ! 223 (aka 5.56) is considered a "military cartridge" ! Which is a completely arbitrary concept, since 308. is not considered a military cartridge, thanks to lobbying from the hunting lobby (which is massive in France).
Funnily enough even 300 aac blackout isn't considered a military cartridge.
I suspect that French gun laws are the sole reason that 222 Rem still exists. 🤷
@@sae1095hc no, the .222 came first and is not a derivate of .223.
Still a quite popular hunting round for roe, fox and capercaille/grouse in Swe, Nor, Fin
I don't know what make it was, but back in 2003 I was patching targets for a guy with a straight-pull AR at the Queen's Medal matches at Bisley. 300m sitting rapid I patched 8 of his 10 shots with a single patch! I was mightily impressed.
Based Mini Mag enjoyer.
You wouldn't even need a licence for that in Austria. Just go to the gun shop, buy the gun, they do a background check and you pick the gun up three days later, very similar to the USA.
They sell a lot of them into Austria, indeed :)
if you told that to a brit , they would refuse to believe you !
@@geezerp1982 Hahahaha I am actually an ex Brit. I love firearms so I fled the UK a long time ago. I do miss Pump action shotguns which are banned here for a crazy reason (google pump gun Ronnie) but I have a Benelli M4 plus lots of semi automatic centre fire goodness so all good.
Just keep an eye on that cocking handle, a fair few have broken in the UK.
Nice - this video answers a question I always wondered! I have an SP-15 too (in UK), and wondered if a CMMG kit would work in it. Now I know - thank you so much! 😄 maybe another ticket variation is due soon....
A dedicated upper is a better bet for accuracy, but for simple fun with the rifle in the same configuration as centrefire, this is definitely the way forward!
@@BlokeontheRange yeah, completely agree on that!
Grab a rekluse trigger and check out the "better-mag" with s&w Mags for true last round hold open. Makes reps and training way cheaper. Also those cmmg mags are very unreliable in my experience. I have one of the 3 it came with that always ftf
I enjoyed the video Bloke, also have a straight pull and the conversion kit has interested me. I do like the cocking or charging handle on the Schmeisser, sometimes with reloads a little extra force is needed.
Interesting video. I know a guy with a straight pull Schmeisser...will tell him about the possibility of using a .22 bolt and try it for mini-rifle !
Excellent info !
Any plans to come back to the UK? Imperial CSR entries open, just sayin...
I'm planning on doing Imperial CSR and GRSB one of these years... Likely won't be this year though!
Can you get geisselle triggers over there? very crisp clean trigger and will set off 22lr no problem. Doesnt have that nice "safety on when decocked" feature like the SLT
Well done Bloke. Great job.
Keep up the good work.
I have the 22 rim fire conversion and mine runs trouble free in a Smith and Wesson M&P 15. Also, in California, being a rim fire, it removes the rifle from the assault weapon ban, no matter how many other evil features
the rifle has. The moment you enter Nevada or Arizona you can swap bolts, just make sure you swap back before returning to California..
.223/5.56 projectiles are .224" (for a land to land bore diameter of .223") while .22LR projectiles are .223" designed to be used in a .222" bore. Manufacturing tolerances for the ammo or barrels might make the .22LR bullets tighter or looser. I've read that 1/12" rifling twist (M-16A1) and 1/15" rifling twist (M-16/AR-15 Sporter) works better, since it's closer to what most modern .22LR rifles use (1/16" twist). I bet the current standard 1/7-1/9" twist would work great with .22 subsonic rounds like the 60 grain Aguila. Years ago, one of my friends wanted to try out my .22 adapter in his AR, a Colt carbine with a 1/7 twist. He was using cheap bulk .22. Instead of being able to "clean" the bore with a shot of 5.56, there was still a hunk of lead in the bore he had to clean out with a bronze brush. Another friend was a USAF firearms instructor and armorer back in the 80's. She talked about how most of the USAF personnel used mostly M-16's with the .22 adapter, since they weren't expected to need to use an M-16 in combat. She complained how nasty it was to clean afterwards. She had fun, too, though. She said part of the training for some of units involved her randomly flying an RC plane over the range while the students tried to hit a target being towed behind the plane. While they were shooting in the air, there were miles of bombing range behind the small arms range on base.
For purely recreational shooting, I actually prefer manually operated rifles over semi autos.
Why?
@JonMacFhearghuis lots of people get trigger happy when they shoot semi-autos and accuracie suffers for it
What bullet weight are you using in the .22 conversion ? None of my rifles like anything other than 40gn when using one of my CMMG Kits .
40gn
I have one of the Cenier kits that the CMMG is a copy of. It would shoot the 60gr SSS Aguila, but the shorter cases would have ejection issues.
10:32 That face & “And I’m Spent” needs to be a T-Shirt!
Love the sound of the Schmeisser when you charge it shing shing reminds me of that prodigy song 🖖😸🍻
Firestarter
Wouldnt it be possible to etch the glass on a red dot to get constant functionality aswell? Doesnt PA use japanese glass?
no, cos there's only 1 lens...
Thanks for another interesting video. I and one of my pals own a Bremmer .22LR AR15 each and regarding the light strike issue common to .22LR conversion kits, one factor seems to be the shape of the front end of the firing pin. Mine is a heavily used example where the outer corner of the flat end of the firing pin has been peened down by thousands of impacts on the chamber rim leaving a prominent inboard section of the firing pin point that nicely strikes the primer compound slightly inside the rim without wasting energy on the outer folded (solid) brass part of the brass cartridge case rim. It does not suffer from light strikes. My pal's Bremmer is less heavily used and the front outer corner of the firing pin has not been peened, which causes light strikes as some of the firing pin energy is wasted on the folded part of the brass cartridge case rim which is essentially uncompressable, leaving less energy to strike the primer compound. So you may find over time the peening of the firing pin point solves light strikes or you could use a needle file to lightly reprofile the firing point end to shift the point of impact slightly inwards towards the centreline of the cartridge.
Late to the party but back when semi auto was legal in NZ my mate ran one of those CCMG converters in his (20” barrel) and we found that CCI Velocitors gave the best results for grouping. Might have been the extra FPS or something else.
I would go with CMMG's .22LR full upper.. tighter groups by 2" @100yrds (3").. but for beginners and some fun it is quite 'the tool'. CMMG used to produce 10rnd mags.. but I can not find any.. The long mags can be cut down and have a bottom hold slot milled into it, but then you are looking at spending a lot of money at the gunsmith (required in 'places').
What would be neat for the bolt action only 'places', would be to have a action much like the straight-pull from CMMG..
Nice one... very cool to have an AR with a nice bolt action, makes for cheaper shooting of a bigger calibre, and looks pretty damned quick, almost as fast as SMLE 😄
I'm not a 2A fanboy, quite happy with having enough regulation in hand to keep firepower out of the hands of *most* fools .. Schweitz seems to have a pretty good solution for those who like to be able to "exercise" military - type gear... Canada is going a bit nuts with "city folks" driving absolutely draconian, poorly-considered legislation...sigh .. but, the lunacy in the USA, where they somehow manage to conflate big bad firearms with manhood, and "freedom"..
Anyway, sir, nice to see the bloke "on the range"
You might enjoy an American Western movie starring James Garner movie where the bad guy aquires what I believe to be a type 31 straight pull rifle. Please tell me what the rifle is. Movie is worth the watch. The movie is titled "The Streets of Loredo".
Umm I was just thinking this might not be legal to do in the uk but your in Switzerland it would require a slot for a bolt
I shoot my Remington 597 (yes I should have bought a 1022) at 50m, but have been playing around with different ammo'. At 50m rested with the CCI Mini Mags the grouping, if you can call it that, is awful and at best I get 1.5" groups. I've had better results with Eley Action Plus and Eley Force, both of which are 42 gr, so it seems that the 597 prefers a heavier bullet, but that aside, in a couple of 22LR's I've had issues with CCI Mini Mags, and if I compare with my CZ452 bolt action at 50m, rested on elbows, not a gun rest, if I'm having a good day it's cloverleaf groups or better with Eley Match or RWS Target 22. I would suggest trying something other than the Mini Mags, although the Eley Match, being sub sonic, doesn't cycle the 597 reliably, but the RWS Target did for the vast majority of several thousands of rounds. At a guess it failed to eject two cases in around 5000 rounds. The snag with the RWS Target 22 is the wax they use on them. I had to clean off the rounds before use in the 597 as it vastly aided the gumming up of the magazine.
Out of my V-22 dedicated .22 upper, minimags are giving me good grouping at 50m, not as good as RWS Pistol Match, but pretty good nevertheless.
I've never thought of minimags as precision/match ammo, just a step above the bulk crap, nice enough to have good tight crimps and pretty surefire priming. Good baseline testing ammo, if a semi auto .22 won't eat minimag reliably there's a problem.
@@Broken_Yugo reliability no issue with cycling etc. Just naff grouping.
Chinesium made me chuckle out loud, i always like the good humor. Keep it up.
FYI the bolt release can act as a forward assist😄
I've loved my CMMG kit, but after a few thousand rounds it's started to leave keyholes in my targets with worse accuracy overall. I've yet to figure out why...
If you are referring to when you use .223/5.56 after using 22lr, it could be that there is some lead deposits in your gas port/crown/muzzle device. I would suggest a thorough inspection and cleaning to try to fix it. If you mean with 22lr, the twist rate is likely very wrong for 22lr if you are using a .223/5.56 barrel.
Edit: inaccuracy with 22lr could also be from the lead deposits I mentioned as well.
I'd second that... I'd get in there with a lead/copper solvant and a good quality bronze brush and give it a really good going-over.
@@BlokeontheRange
Copper solvent and bronze brush don't like each other if ammonia based if I'm not mistaken.
@@blakebeaton5821 thanks to all for the advice! I am referring to using the .22 kit with the same Federal 40gr ammo as before. 5.56 shows no loss in perceivable accuracy, and I always put 1-3 rounds of 5.56 through after the .22s. I will definitely give it a thorough cleaning with solvent and see if that's the issue. Tbh I don't clean it much but I did use CLP and a cleaning rod/brush down the barrel about 500 rounds of .22 back.
@Dread Not also, don't forget to clean your conversion kit and check it for any wear, especially on the chamber adapter, if it is worn or damaged, you can order replacements.
Personally all my .223 barrels have a 1:7 twist, so I ended up just putting together a whole dedicated.22 upper. This means I could also put together a bufferless lower with a folding stock, and could go the other way and get something like a brn 180 or mcx upper.
The _sound_ of that makes my ears cringe---something about capturing the sound of a US$50 air rifle is just _wrong_ 🙂
I really wish America's gun culture would align more with Switzerland.
I did something similar and got similar results. I have a dedicated “M16A22”, but I found that it really needs a free float tube if one wishes to shoot well with a sling. While that was on order, I went to a Project Appleseed Rimfire Known Distance class (half sized D silhouettes out to 200 yards) My primary rifle had a problem with the sights (some nitwit reassembled it with a part upside down 🙊) so I swapped the barrel collar in the CMMG kit for a chamber insert, and put it in my WWSD(ish) rifle I had brought as a backup. Did pretty well for a 4MOA standard course, the only embuggerance experienced was trying to figure out .22LR holds on an ACOG reticle meant for 5.56.
A few weeks later I brought the same rifle and conversion kit with a more appropriate scope to an NRL22 match. Didn’t do too well, but I hit all the 4MOA targets 😆
The BHO followers in those magazines reduce their capacity. Those are 25 round magazines so they max out at 23. I have always found them wonky when topped off. 20 rounds is likely the most they will load with no issues. Interesting that rimfire conversion works in the SP-15. TBH a good, accurate .22lr bolt gun tickles my fancy considerably more. Love my CZ 452.
Thanks! I am interested in a .22 conversion for my AR, but wasn't sure about the bolt conversion and haven't been able to locate a dedicated .22 upper.
I've got that same prism with the corresponding magnifier. It was a bit finicky to get the focus on both the prsim and the magnifier to agree with each other, but ita definitely possible. You won't beable to use the cantilever mount afaik.
I find it hilarious, but also sad, that this thing would be legal in the UK, but it's not here in Canada.
Schmeisser The German-named rifle.
They made a smart marketing decision to get it. There is no direct connection but they do make good stuff.
.22 gives me lots of problems with light strikes in my cmmg kit, with all sorts of triggers, to include milspec. Then again, I wasn't using cci, but something a bit cheaper
Apparently there's all sorts of remedies like extended firing pins to fix that.
That 1X sight is a tad EM2 in concept.
Have the same optic paired with magnifier. Works well.
I never got it to work with a magnifier, but that would seem to be the worst of both worlds in any case.
@@BlokeontheRange Shooters preference. The specific magnifier might put the prism too far forward than is comfortable when the magnifier is not in use. Played with the prism close and with space for a magnifier and didn't find much difference that caused my ditching of space for a magnifier.
If I couldn't have a semi-auto AR, I'd get one of those or maybe wait for the Bond Arms lever action AR.
I'm looking forward to the Bond Arms and the Fightlite levergats :)
That hoodie/smock thing is fire. Where do you get those?
www.varusteleka.com/en/product/sarma-blanket-shirt/35226
Spendy, but very nice indeed :)
Really strange to me that these straight pull ar15s don't show up in Australia, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be legal in Victoria, I know some of the other states have some odd laws regarding straight pulls.
Simple answer is that they look too too scary for the Australian Authorities. A UK gun maker tried to export UK legal AR-15's to Oz but the guns were prohibited from entry because though they were bolt action rifles they looked like assault rifles.
Look into the Warwick WF1L. Made in Victoria and it’s a very decent straight pull AR style.
I've had three different .22LR adapters for my various AR-15's. I had a Colt adapter that Colt released in the late 80's/early 90's. It used a proprietary magazine that was different than the Ciener system, using a different style of feedlips. Later, I got an adapter similar to the USAF adapter, again, it used a magazine that's compatible with the CMMG adapter, but for some reason, you had to fire it to clear the chamber, the ejector claw would not pull a loaded shell out. I talked to the designer asking if it was defective and he said it was designed that way. I still have it, but I do not like it, I don't want to get kicked off of a range because I have to shoot my rifle to clear it if the RO orders it. Finally I got a CMMG stainless steel adaptor. I have 4 Mad Dog Machining magazines in smoke gray plastic. Mad Dog makes the magazines for CMMG, I believe (but I may be wrong.)
PSA has the cmmg kit with 3 mags on clearance for $170 usd right now. I think I might get one. I'm curious if the Aguila 60gr sniper subsonic would function and shoot accurately in the ar barrel. They run in my marlin 60, but the breech pop is loud.
So if your one of those guys who doesn't clean your firearm after each range session, shoot a couple 223/556 rounds before leaving the range dur to fouling and gunk. (Never understood the, don't clean it til it fails mentality.)
I get light strikes on my (dedicated) CMMG conversions, rimfire just seems to need more of a whack, I did fit a Wolff extra power hammer spring to a 15-22 I had, the hammer broke not long after I sold it though!
What do you think of those newfangled lever action ARs from fightlite and that other one inrange likes?
Absolutely stoked by them. Want.
@@BlokeontheRange I was looking at the Schmeisser straight pull. Then I found a BLR Armalon conversion with 20 rd mags & heavy barrel😸
Could the bolt handle not be swept back or placed further back so you could do a biathlon reload?
yes, that's how it is on most UK made ones, and the next gen Schmeisser cocking handle is going to be like that too. Some of the 9mm ones already have it.
Got the same cmmg kit. They are great
Gods but that intermission screen & music took me back!😄😄
Nice bit of kit mikey
So the .22 conversion kit doesn't work with the WWSD because of the SLT trigger pack? I mean, it is designed with the milspec hammer and trigger in mind.
Gives me constant light strikes
@@BlokeontheRange With the SLT trigger? I do wonder if it works better with like a DMR trigger.
Yup, but it runs fine with the trigger in the SP-15 as you can see there.
@@BlokeontheRange Yeah, it works nicely with a milspec type trigger for sure
That's a match unit in the SP-15, but a fairly chonky one.
Question; does the UK not allow semi-auto rifles to be owned by civilians?
No it does not.
@@owensmith7530 ok. Ty.
@@kingerikthegreatest.ofall.7860 Except .22 Rimfire
I use one of the CMMG kits in my M16A1. Such fun without having to dip into my precious 223 stash.
That straight pull just sounds weird when you cycle it! What is the flash hider on that Schmeisser SP-15?
Actually I have no idea, it's just the one it came with.
5:28 normal for 22lr is 1/16"
You could get an old M16a1 or old 1/16 twist 223 barrel, since you're shooting 55 grain and it shouldn't really kill accuracy.. on the 223 front
On the 22lr who knows
Or am I being stupidly wrong in that?
M16A1 is 1:12. The very early M16's had 1:14.
@@BlokeontheRange thank you for that correction... Would a lighter twist help the 22LR a bit(granted at that range with most 22LR wind can be an actual factor) but maybe some heavy bullet 22LR, or does that not exist?
Sorry despite being an American(poor me, I live where an AR is cheaper than a 10/22), I haven't shot 22LR since I was a kid, and am unaware of they've made any advancement in that ammo
1:16 is optimal for normal bullet weight .22lr
I shoot .22lr out of my 1/7" twist Sig and a JA Cenier conversion kit. T/C Contenders have always used 1/12" twist in their .22lr barrels. I have a 1/9" twist barrel in my 10/22 and it shoots 30, 33, 36, 40, 42 and 60 grain pills just fine.
@@eloiseharbeson2483 I appreciate that information, as I've been looking into getting one of the CMMG 22LR conversions over buying a dedicated 22LR upper or just being really lazy and getting that S&W MP-15 22lr sport...
hi, to you !!!
i don't understand the sense of this gun ...?!? 🤔👋
If you can elaborate further on what you don't understand, I might be able to explain it?
It goes pew pew for very cheap
For where you cannot have a semi auto
Or indeed where you can have a semiauto but the license is more difficult to get
And sometimes different is fun!
I know it's a faff to load your own but you might find tighter groups.not for plinking but might give you the edge when running at a competitive shoot where points mean prizes (if you don't have the patience get chap involved as he seems to like fiddling about in his man cave making and improving stuff ) !😁
I actually have a dedicated .22 upper too ;)
@@BlokeontheRange
What did you choose and will it fit the KP15 lower?
I have a V-22 that I bought a loooong time ago when it was basically the only game in town. It does fit the KP15 but I haven't seen if it gets enough oompf from the SLT-1 trigger group yet.
No barrel change required?
no not needed, a dedicated 22lr barrel would give better accuracy but if it's just for plinking then it isn't needed
That straight pull sounds so cheap and nasty when operated.
Designed by Hugo Schmeisser.
you should experiment with throwing that abomination in the trash