I have CPTSD and I agree 100%! The fact that people want to lump CPTSD together with BPD is clearly a lack of understanding about this. One thing that Dr. Grande didn't mention is that BPD is a personality disorder. CPTSD is a mental condition (clearly brought on by trauma). Comparing apples and oranges is not helpful (not that Dr. Grande is trying to do that - but whomever is doesn't get it).
Completely separate! They don’t talk about all the physical body issues with CPTSD Memory loss, chronic fatigue, tremors, headaches, Fibromyalgia. There is so many physical symptoms that is not being documented with chronic PTSD and PTSD. People don’t talk about that part of it but it’s extremely physical.
if you dont have a lot of money and or good health insurance you will just be treated for a disorder the practitioners have had more experience with i.e. schizophrenia, bi-polar. You will be gaslighted by the mental health system when consistent gaslighting from very early on is what caused your condition to begin with.
Absolutely! Loads of women are wrongly diagnosed with BPD or bipolar when they have CPTSD alone (or have some symptoms that flirt with the other two--and what young abused person doesn't?) and/or autism. Lots of my autistic women friends were wrongly diagnosed with BPD before getting their autism diagnosis.
I think the inescapable nature of the traumatic abuse suffered by those with C-PTSD versus PTSD deserves to be highlighted. Like those soldiers who received their traumatic injury in the battlefield, children who suffered their injuries in the family home also were not free to leave their traumatic environment. I tried a couple of times as a child, didn't work out so well. The 24/7 thing, combined with never knowing when, are factors I would identify as being amongst the hardest to deal with.
There's a significant, measurable difference between PTSD and CPTSD. "The World Health Organization now recognizes CPTSD as an official diagnosis with more symptoms, greater impairment, and more detrimental effects on life than uncomplicated PTSD."
so many people walking around with a misdiagnosis and waiting on "experts" to make a decision on their behalf, meanwhile the reality of living with it and never knowing when it is going to raise it's head again is a very different thing. half the problem is tbat they still don't understand ptsd, let alone c-ptsd in kids and how it changes your whole wiring as it is forming. I think that people need to understand that the reality of it never really goes away it just fluctuates in depth.
EXACTLY !!! I'm so sick of men , and thier BULLSHIT diagnostics. I am intersexed, and always looked more feminine . I was groomed by my father sexually beginning around 6 , my father sexually abused me , my younger brother sexually abused me , boys at school assaulted me ( physically and sexually ) At 17 , I was a victim of human trafficking , repeatedly beaten and raped ......but the psychiatrist who was a man from Zambia or Zimbabwe diagnosed me as BPD with self grandiose behavior. That FUCKER told my mother , people with BPD make up stories for attention. My mother said " why didn't you tell anyone ? " and I told her repressed memories of severe trauma are shut down by the brain . I didn't choose to forget it untill 2014 .... False memories don't trigger us to dissociate and black out and get sick several times a day for months . Unlike transgender women, I have ovaries and testicles AND if I don't get surgery I will get cancer .... I was lucky to attend a local women's sexual assault recovery program and the other women in the group accepted me being there . How can men actually empathize with the horrors women suffer through , they can't!!!
I have CPTSD due to having grown up in an oppressive, abusive, fundamentalist Christian cult. IMO, the overlap between CPTSD and BPD is a bit dubious. My personality is *not* disordered. What I do have is a perpetually "on" sympathetic nervous system "fight or flight" threat assessment/response, which besides being exhausting, usually means that I tend to withdraw from people and situations I know will increase my stress level. Borderlines usually don't do that.
Me too! ....all but the fundamentalist Christian cult part. I see these as completely different processes, even if they were both caused by trauma. I mean, even things such as NPD are are exacerbated, if not caused by, trauma... but they are still very different disorders. My CPTSD is nothing like BPD....I have none of the fear of abandonment, none of the unstable sense of self, no self harming or suicidal behaviors...and even with the "overlapping symptoms" I could only identify two that were a "sometimes yes, depending on the situation". The "experts" should really get the feedback of those who have these disorders before lumping them together. I feel that doing so could make treatment much more difficult.
The: They are not the same, but the symptoms are similar enough that misdiagnoses happen fairly often. Also, there is overlap. I believe that is what they are saying.
I grew up in a fundamentalist christian cult during the Satanic Panick 80's....CPTSD is the only way you survive, cause it's either get CPTSD or die. I'm still alive, so of course I'm broken. So much sexual, mental, physical and spiritual abuse....and I'm not free from them cause they STALK anyone who dares to leave them....they promise that you will have terrible painful life and "God" has cursed to "walk this earth in misery" if you leave them. So yeah, never getting free will break a human being eventally and I don't know if I can stop myself from breaking anymore
I am a clinician and I treated individuals with BPD my entire career. I also have CPTSD. I can not fathom it as being the same as BPD. Yes, there is overlap, but so many MH dxs have overlap. And unfortunately, I’ve found the differentiation does have an impact on how pts are perceived by providers (which is a whole different topic). CPTSD almost perfectly captures my experience and when I learned of it I cried tears of relief. The idea of it being classified as BPD is anthema to my experience, both as a patient and as a provider. I see how it can be attractive to do so- but if we start lumping dxs together because of overlapping sxs we are doing a huge disservice to our pts. The fact that this conversation is happening in the community reflects the general lack of true understanding of what c-ptsd is on the parts of those saying it’s a subset of BPD and I think your video does a good job of flushing out just a few of the reason as to why this is.
@Oliver The Chinchilla I agree. Lumping them together is doing more harm than good. It's horrible. Personally, I had a friend who was diagnosed BPD in her young adulthood. She has classic Borderline traits, minus suicide attempts, however, she has thought about it but *"fears going to hell more."* . So it's out of the question. But she splits often, has no *close* friendships that have lasted years, because the idealization and devaluing happens every few months with her. The fear of abandonment also prevents her from responding to things as innocent as a text messages. She says she has a fear or reading something she doesn't like and end up losing the person. She constantly fears losing people, yet she does plenty to push them away when she feels engulfed. And like a lot of BPD sufferers, when they find themselves at a certain point of closeness to another person....they begin to feel controlled and engulfed. But then again, if she calls or texts me, I am to answer right away or be accused of ignoring her. But never once has she answered the phone when I called her out of the blue. She's always too busy to talk when called, but she becomes livid *or* anxious when people are not responding to her phone calls. She honestly cannot see any of it. But the fear of abandonment and the splitting are clear indications that her past diagnosis of BPD are correct. Problem is, the online forum of BPD is running to CPTSD as a sort of denial. And since people with BPD have a distorted reality and cannot see themselves clearly, CPSTD will almost always ring true to them as the core problem. It's really sad because lumping them together and claiming everyone was just "misdiagnosed" is becoming a stumbling block to healing for the people who were *correctly* diagnosed. And I can fully understand ,with all the stigma of BPD, why they would so desperately want to believe it's CPTSD instead. But all the confusion is not helping. Notwithstanding that a person may even have comorbidity. I wish more doctors would be as clear as this man is. Because a personality disorder *is* different than a stress disorder, just as you have stated in your comment. I'm glad you found out the truth.
I agree. Im classic CPTSD and suffer awful abandonment shame isolation i get triggered im totally vulnerable. Abandonment is in every program in NYC. It is the root of every disorder. Why wouldnt they mention CPTSD with awful emptiness feelings of abandonment. This information is false. BPD is not the only that suffer a void so do alcoholics love addicts anxuety and i hate to tell you they all fall under the umbrella of cptsd. Trauma is generational usually it is a snowball effect. Traumatized parents create traumatized children. Get sick of these professionalsm
I unfortunately have CPTSD that was triggered again from recent trauma and made worse and it is nothing like borderline . Therapy has helped as well , quickly giving me the tools . Isolation is preferred because it is safe , my emotions no not escalate , I do not rage. Shame is a big part and then guilt for isolation. Plagued with trauma memories breaks my heart over over. I do not have patience for abusive people and immediately put them out of my life without a second thought. I have no trust which I hope to regain soon . I was also raised in a radical Christian environment, forced to forgive those who hurt me . Led to people pleasing codependency . I did not choose it, I was taught it . I do believe CPTSD can heal it takes a lot of work and compassion for yourself. I do believe many people suffer from ptsd and are misdiagnosed . From my experience ptsd and cptsd do not go happy high goofy playful to raging . We are just on high alert overly careful and sad . As time goes on tho (Years) it gets better . Borderlines tend to behave erratically ... CPTSD (alone) sufferers do not ... opinions anyone ?
Agreed! CPTSD sufferers(I am one) tend to isolation and they also don't care much about socialization. Not to say at all. Also, CPTSD sufferers don't feat abandonment. Instead, a lot of them have impaired bonding, me included. Why would I miss a person who thankfully shut the f*** up and left me alone in peace and will give me the gift of not coming back? I won't! Emotional dependence is not an usual CPTSD trait. To avoid dependants and dependence itself tend to be a CPTSD trait. We don't fall in love immediately like BPDs do, because we don't even trust people, right? Most specialists tend to forget this vital trait which can lead to differ both DXs. ...and I'm a healthcare professional! 😊 I love to help and treat people, but at the end of the day, I just wish for my solitude and not even my husband is able to reach me. Thankfully, he's comprehensive about it due to the fact that his CPTSD is worse than mine.
Hello Heather, could You please tell me where are You from? Because I was also raised in a radical Christian environment and forced to forgive and maintain a contact with my abusive, narcissistic relatives who enjoyed putting me down, neglecting and insulting me in my childhood. I wish You all the best .. I hope that God is not so intimidating as Catholic church want to present to us.
@@m.n.8822 God loves you and is a compassionate and kind father. I relate to your upbringing and God is nothing like the judgmental and narcissistic people that raised us so I never threw out the baby with the bath water. I know God hates abuse and oppression and I find comfort in reading the Bible daily.
@@flgal7788 I'm sorry but your comment is the last thing that a victim of religious abuse needs. Don't shove your beliefs down their throat. It's triggering, invalidating, and highly inappropriate.
Actually cptsd is a lot like borderline. It is true that the main difference is bpd fears abandonment whereas cptsd would rather self isolate, but cptsd also often experiences high emotional instability and rage, whereas not everyone with bpd does rage, especially quiet borderlines. Nor do borderlines go from happy and goofy to raging. It does not work like that. What happens is something reminds us of our trauma that triggers our fight or flight instinct which can manifest in many different ways, and as I'm sure you know the exact same thing happens with cptsd, which is why people with just cptsd can also rage out when triggered and can act just as erratically as some borderlines can (again not all borderlines are erratic or rageful). Both disorders also feel intense and chronic guilt and shame, and neither choose their disorder.
I have both, I think they’re connected but different. For example I can function with BPD but CPTSD shuts me down completely. I can’t eat, sleep/or I oversleep, I self isolate, anxiety overwhelms me, I remember everything, every hurt, pain & humiliation like it was yesterday. Any reminder of the incidents that traumatised me makes me numb & dissociate. Whereas with BPD, I had an amnesia of sorts & never thought about my past. I had typical BPD behaviours but I never felt traumatised & for the most part people rarely noticed because I hid it so well with a false persona. Point is you can hide BPD, pretend to be normal, fit in to some degree but there is no hiding CPTSD, it’s the worst kind of vulnerability. Just my thoughts
Live Life Well explained. This is exactly how I experience the two. Once CPTSD overwhelms me, I too also shut down. I am currently in the grips of CPTSD and have been for many months. However just the other day I faced another trigger which made me want to self harm. I have not done this for a long time. I was completely out of control. I felt like getting into my car and driving full speed into a concrete wall, or cutting up my wrists. Now I’m beginning to have delusions. I’m also always tired, totally self isolated and extremely anxious. To top it off, there’s just no help where I live for disorders and mental health.
I've been able to hide most triggers from CPTSD (I don't have BPD) except for the severe ones and like you said my severe triggers shut me down... it's like being in the middle of a crisis... like reliving the chaos of the abuse and there was no hiding it. Hiding the less severe triggers came by necessity because people didn't understand (thought it weird and I was already undiagnosed autistic and weird enough), and I had work to do and a life with demands. AND, more importantly, I could almost always figure out the more mild triggers within minutes, hours, or days and so I had a sense of mastery... I could ride the fear. But that's just the triggers. There's also the hypervigilance, sleep issues generally, nightmares, and the toll on the body when the sympathetic nervous system is on all the time. And early on even the mild triggers caused me to disassociate. Thank goodness that doesn't happen any longer. Healing, maybe not complete, is possible.
The vulnerability is really bad. I used to think i had borderline tendensies cause i always bit my nails but then i was diagnosed with cptsd and have all the symptoms. Sometimes i feel so vulnerable i dont want to leave the house. I am grieving alot which is thawing the trauma and im getting stronger but i still get hurt so easily. I am learning compassion for myself which is helping with all the shame which is what fuels addictive behaviors and im learning to love myself. Everyday i get alittle stronger but i think i will always be vulnerablem
I was abused by a violent narcisstic mother and I was finally diagnosed with bpd when I was 25 cause I couldn't go on and I needed someone to tell me what was happening to me. I didn't take it very well though at first... The therapist or whatever he was was very judgemental of me like I was a bad person. I studied bpd after that and I cried for a long time, I wondered why I was torturing myself but then I realized I was healing. Ive known about CPSD for years now and based on my symptoms reducing with constantly researching bpd I thought it was probably cpsd but honestly I don't know. I can't think clearly and can't see myself from an outside perspective and do have shifting sense of self so maybe it is bpd. Its a living hell... I thought I would be free when I grew up but the scars from my childhood still effect almost every aspect of my adult life and iam completely isolated. I'm learning to trust myself and others and if they hurt me I don't take it so personally as I once did but I can't break out of the avoidance pattern and I'm terrified if dying alone, theres never anybody there when I turn around and I know I'm doing it to myself but I don't know how to stop
Misdiagnosed 60 yr old, BDP anxiety Depression but just diagnosed with autism. Traumatic childhood and cpstd now raises it head and makes more sense than bdp.
My OH has CPTSD and I am a mental health clinician working with people who have BPD. It's just not the same. I can see how other clinicians only spending an hour at a time with someone in a controlled environment wouldn't appreciate the differences, but when you live every day among people carrying both diagnoses the differences are really very obvious. It is also obvious when people have both CPTSD and BPD concurrently. The mental health profession needs to do better, psychiatry and psychology needs to work together cohesively so that people receive the correct diagnosis and treatment.
I am so happy you made this video. I have CPTSD. Some of your other videos were shaking my confidence and making me wonder whether I might have a personality disorder. I knew deep down I didn't but when you have been gaslighted as much as I was, there are times when you can still question yourself. I know what happened.
I don't know if I can safely agree that a percentage of BPD did not have trauma. Trauma, particularly emotional is much harder to nail down, and we are also including infant trauma without memory. Sensitive individuals can also narrow in on the emotional scars from their parents which may look like a hereditary piece. A distant or post-partum depressive mother could affect the feelings of safety of a small child or baby. I am not disagreeing that there may be some differences in what we see when describing the two disorders. But I wonder if they are just slight variations on the theme of trauma effects.
I have Both cptsd severly abused from time I can rememeber sexually until I was 10. I also was diagnosed with Bpd, Anxiety, Cptsd. I battle everyday to overcome. I am not ashamed.I fight daily to survive and everyday lived is another day I am one step closer to overcoming.I have Bpd but have never hurt anyone, I rarely yell it scares me. I have never hit anyone or thrown things. Violence scares me especially yelling. I do have alot of inward anger though at myself.
Jessica Bowman Sorry about what happened to you Jessica. You are not alone, I know how you battle everyday to keep 'You' alive. Much respect for keeping up the good fight. Try to be gentle with yourself, be on your side. Remember always, you are the 'Star' of your life, you are more than worth it - You are It! Peace.
Same here. If I even feel anger inside trying to escape to hurt another. I will go into isolation mode instead. Abused from 3 to 19 than abusive fiance from 27 to 38. It oftan feels like impending doom is always lurking. I was diagnosed with Aniexty and BPD at 14. Somehow Austin lost my mental records. Now SSA has denied me two times. And misdiagnosed me with fracking, Bipolar disorder. I feel I have progressed to BDP Cluster C and C-PTSD sadly. We all fight it on a daily basis to live. Ty for sharing your story and courage. Blessings....
Very much agree, i am old now and my life has been ruined by this, word complex really does give a clue, world of pain and disfunction, in short living hell. BPD or CPTSD does not make one person better or worse, both deserve understanding and compassion i believe.
I agree and yet not everyone with CPTSD has a personality disorder. It likely has to do with how nature and nurture and what's particular to the person meets. I think it's important to not lose sight of people's trauma. At the same time, I'm not going to stay in relationship with a sociopath or a narcissistic simply because they were abused as a child. It's one thing to be empathetic as a therapist or from a distance and it's another thing to be in relationship with someone who directly harms you.
The fact that a surprisingly large percentage of people have ACE scores of 3 or more prove that. It has a lot to do with the increase in obesity and substance abuse out there now. You would find the work of Dr. Vincent Felletti on adverse childhood experience very interesting.
As a person who has CPTSD, I can say that I immediately identified w it once it was suggested to me after decades of misdx. Every person I have met/spkn with, we completely related. I also have met with many BPD women over the years and we noticed markedly different experiences/symptoms and shared a few. JFYI. 😊
My sister has BPD, my ex has CPTSD. While my sister did have trauma that did manifest itself in BPD, they both had extremely different disorders. What would have worked for one definitely would not have worked for the other. Their behavior when insecure was different, and my sister fluctuated all the time, while my ex's behavior was consistent daily.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I do feel the combined need to reconceptualize BPD and define CPTSD just ends up convincing people that they must be the same disorder, without taking into consideration that people with BPD and a trauma history may also have symptoms relevant to CPTSD. It’s interesting because it somewhat displays the difficulty that people have with allowing separate ideas to exist without lumping them together or polarizing them.
As someone who was abused in all forms, from physical to sexual to neglect, for 13 years, from 8 yo to 21 yo when I had to leave my so called family to escape after my great grandmother passed, I have C-PTSD, BPD and NVS to show for it all. My abuser(s) were narcissistic and kept kicking me back down when I tried to reach out for a help. As a result, I don't ever ask for help even when I know I need it. I can barely hold a job that I have to keep to survive even thoughit makes me wish I were dead most of the time. I withdraw from most people everyday. It's exhausting to force myself to talk when I don't want to, I don't trust a soul because everyone who I should have been able to trust turned on me when I was just a child. I can't even afford to get the help I need even though it's supposed to be provided through my state. I fully think that C-PTSD and BPD need their own unique diagnosis and classification. I know PTSD sufferers can't escape their trauma either, but it is so much easier to build someone back up from one trauma when they have who they were before that trauma occured to work towards. How do you repair someone who was never developed into a whole individual before that trauma began, and went on for the entirety of their formulative years? There is nothing to build back to. It sucks to live like this. I'd not ever wish it on anyone. Just my perspective on the comparison. There are overlapping traits and characteristics, but they are entirely different in almost every way.
"How do you repair someone who was never developed into a whole individual before that trauma began, and went on for the entirety of their formulative years?" This really resonated with me, Forky Kitty. Thank you. I've always felt like I'm in this constant remodel project, where the walls were built crooked, the stairs were made wobbly, the wood in the floor is rotten. So, throughout my life, I've tried tearing down a wall here, replacing some stairs there, in remodeling myself and my life via therapy and recovery. But, the real issue is the foundation. There's too much sand in the concrete, as it were. It was never solid to begin with. So, thank you for your honesty and for being real. The only thing I've figured out so far, for me, is to just keep pursuing healing, and try to be kind to myself as I do.
I’ve been diagnosed with impulse control disorder and bipolar 2....I know in my heart that it’s wrong, and discovering CPTSD really helped me... because I finally found a diagnosis. I can only heal from here on out
was "diagnosed" with bpd in 2015. But I had a brutal childhood. In my very very strong opinion after years of researching and looking for answers in alll kinds of places, i truly believe BPD is not a real disorder. quote me on this in 50 years or so when scientists and doctors realize, that no, the symptoms even of "BPD" are from triggers. deeeep, emotional major triggers. you can trigger yourself, due to your childhood trauma, just thinking about it and subconsciously or consciously triggering how traumatized you felt in the past. Sure doctors can label BPD patients having suicidal thoughts and actions, but have they dug deeper as to WHY? It is ALL rooted in TRAUMA. NO BABY on earth is born suicidal. Just as no baby is born racist/sexist/homophobic. Something happened to that person to TRAUMATIZE them deeply enough to want to leave earth or feel like they dont belong here. People are not suicidal for no reason. Therefor the things that differentiate BPD and CTPSD are truly irrelevant, because it all goes back to trauma. He quoted a statistic that a 10-20% of BPD patients have no history of trauma, but, how do doctors know for sure? How do they know that this person is not so cut off from the event in their own mind and don't even realize what happened to them WAS NOT NORMAL. A lot of people normalize extremely traumatic and toxic things, ESPECIALLY if that is all they know, if they were born into a toxic reality. How can you tell a doctor you were traumatized if your version of trauma does not match what trauma really is. I firmly believe this, and am eventually writing a book on my life and experiences with how far behind, even in 2019 we are in mental health research and development. *also, his stats on the genetic make up of those behind BPD, I'd argue the pain body theory. There is evidence that we can carry trauma from previous generations through our genes. Therefor again, even if this baby IS born with these genes, Id ask, what is the family history of mental health like?
I appreciate this explanation so much. I think I have BPD but sometimes I think " idk maybe it's just CPTSD." You reminded me that I'm confused af for a reason and the most important thing is to find a treatment model that improves my symptoms.
I have been diagnosed with Borderline and PTSD, along with Depression that never goes away and Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I was not sexually abused as a child, but had a very dominant and critical mother, so there was a lot of emotional/verbal abuse. I was just diagnosed with Borderline three years ago. This was a very upsetting thing for me, because I had heard so many bad things about it. I have researched it enough to know that I have the "Quiet" kind - I rarely yell and have never yelled at a significant other, have never thrown things, I am very non confrontational. I do have a tendency to sabotage relationships - "They are going to leave me anyway, so I might as well make sure it happens now instead of later." Now I am 51 and all alone, so I can't do that damage to myself anymore! I go in cycles where I want to learn more about theses things so I can understand myself better, and not wanting to know because it makes me so sad that I am all broken inside.
I did find this very interesting, thank you! Dialectical Behavioral Therapy has completely changed my life as someone with PTSD and a few other disorders that aren't BPD even though it was developed for borderline treatment. I think just about anyone who is suffering or doesn't feel like life is worth living could take something valuable from it.
from a person who has lived with cptsd for about 36 of 42 years, cptsd is very real whether the "experts who study humans and their behavior" but dont experience it can recognise it or not. I was also told that bpd was the root but I now know that to be ill-informed and based more on hypothesis than fact.
I sure hope that those debating this issue have considered getting the input of those who have experienced these disorders first hand. As a person who was diagnosed 20 years ago with PTSD, which I have personally come to understand is actually CPTSD (a distinction which didn't really exist 20 years ago) I feel strongly that my own symptoms (if they are in fact "officially" CPTSD) are very distinct from BPD and that we do need both classifications available. I do feel that my own needs are substantially different from the needs of someone suffering the symptoms you list under BPD....and it just seems like mental health professionals could be easily mislead and confused by combining the two...either as one diagnosis OR even as CPTSD becoming a subtype of BPD... and would just lead to more time, and more frustration for clients such as myself, who are already struggling and may have trouble trusting that their therapists have the competence to actually understand their symptoms well enough to help. I feel like the existence of some "overlap of symptoms" is not at all a good reason to assume that they are enough alike to combine them in any substantial way.
CPTSD should definitely be considered more, because PTSD is more relevant to factors that more directly threaten a persons life, however there are people like myself who gets into an erratic, anxious state simply because I had my wellbeing threatened, and thus my life threatened but it was less direct. Unfortunate encounters throughout childhood+adolescence with some messed up and random people who'd harass me each in different ways in public and at school, had just created a feeling as if the world was set up to shock me for some reason, and this added to my Social anxiety. I reflect back on these days, I can't remember what exactly happened at all, and it's all in fragments, random fragments, and I know in the back of my mind that the timeline isn't right. I only remember my own fear and shock fuelled states. I just can't match the definition of PTSD (which actual survivors like soldiers, hostages and physical abuse victims get) because I never faced survival challenges, but instead I was faced with people making threats, sexual harassment, ridicule, isolation and manipulation. So, nowadays when I see a familiar face or behaviour; it's like a door opens, then I'm thinking about a multitude of shocking moments, and no matter what I try and do to stop, I start reliving these experiences in my head, feeling the old feeling again. After this, I just begin focusing on them ridiculously and how I could've acted better so that they wouldn't have affected me so negatively, which becomes really draining, especially when i'm working and this just leads to forgetting things, there are even times when people are talking to me and their voices just muffle. I know this can't just be social anxiety or any mood disorder, and its not PTSD either, so it must be more complex.
Having Quiet BPD, however, means you 'act in'. You feel and struggle with all the same things- The fears of abandonment, mood swings, extreme anxiety, impulsiveness and black and white thinking (splitting); but instead of 'exploding', you implode.
Great points made here. I work with patients who fit criteria for either BPD or C-PTSD. And despite that some BPD patient have trauma in their history, not all do. In these cases, there is a genetic component to BPD, rather than trauma. A demarcation between these two presentations is relevant and necessary.
Mood dysregulation in C-PTSD seems to be limited to flashback episodes/psychogenic cramp attacks, limited to trauma congruent topics for the most part, while BPD mood dysregulation seems plainly random 24/7
I’m diagnosed with BPD but don’t struggle with abandonment. Instead I struggle with isolation and avoidance. For awhile I wondered if I also had avoidant personality disorder but now I think it’s C-PTSD.
Interesting and helpful. IAlmost 60 yrs old and thought I had Borderline Personality Disorder. Been nuts/ very unhappy for 50 yrs, tormented by nightmares and more. Abused child etc etc. Just had diagnosis of CPTSD and waiting for therapy.....Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. I can finally stop beating myself up and look forward to some positive changes. Hope my wicked sense of humour stays with me though.
I have been diagnosed with cptsd. When tested my doctor told me that I fall short to be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. This vid helped me to clear things up a bit. Thank you.
This is fantastic information. I have BPD and CPTSD and they are very much linked together. I just wish I could find a therapist that understood them and had the tools to help me. I am 47 years old and I am still trying to find that person. The biggest mistakes I have made so far on my road to trying to heal is not taking the time to ensure first that the therapist is qualified enough to handle someone like me, (I am also co-morbid with severe depression, anxiety, anti-social behavior, eating disorder, suicidal ideation, ugh it never ends!). For e.g. one therapist I saw used EMDR on me and because she did not finish the session the way she was supposed to, I walked out into the world for the next few days terrified of everyone and everything, it was horrible. I do hope that you will make a video sometime in the future to share with your followers a guide of how to find the right therapist for their given condition. Thank you for your videos, they are very helpful.
Yea a video would be awesome. Im stuck as well high traits of cluster B but no rage or anger and it comes and goes like another personality almost ? I know I dont haVe D.I.D thank God but I do have Cptsd , Depression, Anxiety , Narcissitic mother or borderline. Mean alcoholic Mommy Dearest creepy likeness wealth, fame, I was the last born out of six she was to old to have me and they wouldnt abort. She told me that in therapy when i was 14 went to mexico even they wouldnt either but my father loved me so much so she said who knows , he died when i was 7 then brother suicide 63 months later ,then sisters suicide 7 years later. Then next brother 6 years later, auto asphyxiation but tried to commit suicide numerous times. My mentally retarded sister 63 and I 53 are left. Talk about the C in C.P.T.S.D. Please someone anyone who has delt with dissociation for the first 12 years of life tell me what to do or who to see. I do remember flashes of time usually from pictures. I know she sent me to bording school twice up to Canada to live with my sister 3 times. Texas to live with Aunt and Uncle. Summer Camps you name it and thank God she did. 4 years ago if you ask me i was never abused her kids were dying and she was mad and drank . Lmao. Then i found out i let a narc move in and what a Narc was on u tube. My beloved u tube. I have learned to much im totally obsessed with finding out more information about my family it's crazy to me and I've been a weirdo all my life everyday I can't even explain it everyday is a challenge I'm not suicidal but I don't fear death what I fear is sitting in a convalescent home for years like my mean old Aunt did my therapist wasn't ready for this I don't think many are its comorbid all over the place and I don't know who to go to thank you so much for listening any information greatly appreciated great video love to you all. Doctor Grande please forgive me for saying some crack about you got a video about Richard Brandon and I think I said something about you shouldn't talk about him cuz he helped me anyway I think you're fantastic actually I guess I just haven't watched enough of your videos then sorry about that please forgive me thank you so much for being so on top of things and in the now my therapist says never heard of c-ptsd
It is a mental illness, due to the compounding, severe and debilitating anxiety, isolation, reliving traumatic and life changing events every day, and so on. CPTSD highly affects every part of your life. It is debilitating and removes joy and happiness out of your life, and so on. It is not a personality disorder like borderline personality disorder.
@jfsfrnd Physical stress disorders in the brain are still mental illnesses. In PTSD and CPTSD, the constant state of stress causes severe distress and dysfunction within the mind. But that doesn't mean you're "crazy" or anything, if that's what you're worried about.
When I was first diagnosed bpd I broke out in sobs. This was 3 years ago, now with all the information out there, it's not so hard to take in. Thank yo u fo r helping m e understand myself better. It's a hard party in my head. Ugh.
I had never heard of CPTSD until recently and I think I have it. Since I left home, I was able to avoid situations that trigger it, until a few years ago. I had been a well-functioning, productive, and content person. Now I am a mess. From my personal experience and history, I believe CPTSD and borderline personality disorder are two separate things. I found your description of CPTSD very helpful. Thanks for the video.
Thank you for breaking down the similarities and differences. Although this information is very complex I now have a better understanding. Great video!
If CPTSD was to be classified as a sub-group, I believe, based on my own experience with these symptoms and what I've learned by researching that the anxiety disorder umbrella might be a good one for it to stand under. I was diagnosed first with anxiety and panic disorder but a couple of therapists later, I got the diagnosis of PTSD, GAD and panic disorder with a dash of depression. While I think this is fairly accurate, C-PTSD seems like a more fitting diagnosis. I experience emotional flashbacks to the times when shit was going down and all of a sudden I feel like I have regressed back to the age I was, and I feel the powerful emotions that I had at the moment and at the same time I feel the anger about having to have experienced the things I did. It's all very confusing for my mind and body so usually, I will start to have panic attack symptoms after and fight or flight kicks in hard. After all that crap has happened, I fall into depression because I'm ashamed of losing control. So this is where the self-image thing comes in: the first thing is that like many of the people below, most of my problem with my self-image is the shitty way I've been treated by other people. My reality was twisted by these people and they treated me hatefully while saying they were my friends or that they loved me,. Everyone is supposed to love themselves but if you learn that love is hateful, you will learn to hate yourself. The second thing is that now that you've been treated this way and you've learned to be hateful towards yourself, you start having all these symptoms that bring more shame and guilt because when you're in fear mode all the time, it can lead to social faux pas. One tends to misread situations when one is fearful all the time and things that shouldn't be a big deal can become an obsession. For me, that means I apologise a lot for things that I did that I thought were a big deal and would have been with people I had met in the past but which aren't to the people I have around me now. That shit creates a lot of cognitive dissonance and it's hard to relearn social skills when you're in your twenties. So in conclusion, I think a lot of the things I described above come from a place of fear -of being rejected, of being manipulated (again), of alienating people or of being misunderstood. When you've experienced trauma that makes you believe the world is unsafe, you learn that survival is first and living is the rest. While I think CPTSD should be its own thing and be equal to other major disorders, it would fit in well with anxiety disorders where fear is the main element and which might be the first diagnosis a person gets after experiencing trauma.
It took forever to get a proper diagnosis for me as I have cptsd and ADHD. For the longest time my GP thought it could be bipolar and bpd due to the symptoms of ADHD and cptsd together. Luckily my psychiatrist disagreed and treatment for cptsd/ADHD has been working. Something I just wanted to note, (to point out I have experience as a psych nurse but am not a psychiatrist, my understanding only goes so far) with cptsd you can still have the fears of abandonment based on the type of trauma you have. It does typically present differently than with bpd but if you have cptsd
My own belief, as someone who was diagnosed with BPD about 7 years ago, is that BPD sticks out like a sore thumb from the other Cluster B personality disorders such as Narcissistic and Antisocial. We simply do not belong there with those people. The link between the symptoms of BPD and C-Ptsd is clear, and the fact that all the comorbid/overlapping conditions you mentioned were Affective disorders, stemmed from coping with abuse (such as eating disorders) or else completely separate from personality disorders says a lot. Borderlines have infinitely more in common with Bipolar patients then we do with Antisocial and Narcissistic people, (in fact, the only meaningful difference I seem so see is that we rapidly cycle through emotional states while with Bipolar those states last longer, please correct me if I'm wrong though, I always love being better informed about mental illness) and yet we as patients with overwhelmingly histories of childhood trauma are placed into that same category as sociopaths instead of other people who have that history of trauma (ie Bipolar) in the Affective disorder category? Psychology is in no way infallible of course. In the 1960s black men became the face of schizophrenia simply for fighting for their rights, and were labelled as paranoid, delusional and violent as a result, even though we can look back and see that it was racist propaganda. Look at Hysteria. Look at Freud. The way we understand mental illness is evolving at ever faster rates. The amount of understanding and research that we have about BPD now versus before the 90s, the entire perception has changed on this disorder. We know that the stigma and bias that treatment teams bring to their patients has a negative correlation on patient outcomes, and it can't all just be blamed on "difficult/untreatable Borderlines". Since Marsha Linehan developed DBT, Borderline patients have an incredibly high recovery rate, what is it something like 80-90% over 5 years - outcomes that had never been expected or seen previously, and also significantly low drop out rates for treatment, and DBT has been shown to be successful in treating a number of other conditions as well. Why do Borderlines have such a high recovery rate while the same cannot be said for any of the other personality disorders? Because it isn't a PD at all, it is a disorder of emotional regulation - an Affective disorder, and a type of C-Ptsd. We do not belong in that current category, and keeping us there I feel is dehumanising, leads to more stigma and potentially worse outcomes for a group of people who want to get better and want to heal, and want to just feel in control of the overwhelming emotions we have. With understanding, patient and open, trauma-informed therapies we recover. You can't say the same for people with Narcissistic or Antisocial PD. So let's get the DSM out of the 20th Century in regard to BPD. We aren't on the "borderline between" Neurotic and Psychotic. We aren't devoid of empathy. We aren't a Cluster B Personality Disorder. My hope for Borderline is to be renamed and reclassified to better reflect the current research.
I read in Robert Moore's book "Facing the dragon" that a lot of Vietnam veterans have borderline from trauma. They became so extreme embodying their warrior archetype that they could never could let go. This led to a condition of BPD.
I was constantly abused by my stepmother and her whole family mentally and physically from 1 to 5 years old and then abused by my real mother physically until I’m a teenager, I was always mistreated by teachers at school as I couldn’t concentrated on my study until middle school. So I have this huge struggle to trust people and to believe there’s anything that is good in me. But some days I just feel like I’m the most brightest person and who dares to harm me I will fight. Yet most of the time I’m just so terrified that they will dislike me like many others did. I do have abandonment issues with my partner as I have this constant fear that he will leave me one day and observing for any signs that may indicate that. I know I’m not PTSD, not borderline disorder, and was so confused about my condition. Now I think I’m C-PTSD. It’s just so right.
I think it would be very wrong to associate cptsd with bpd. Bpd is a PERSONALITY DISORDER, which means that the personality is fundamentally defined by the mechanisms of the disorder. Cptsd, on the other hand, is just a broad term for symptoms of past trauma, and doesn't exclude the possibility of a coherent and authentic personality.
Exactly! I've often wondered if they get "confused" or "overlapped" because it's still fairly new compared to the information surround ptsd. Cptsd is caused from an extended period of abuse caused by someone with some sort of BPD.....
I think BPD is so overdiagnosed. Sometimes it's just a lazy diagnostic or a provisional diagnosis and the person needs to be constantly reassessed and they will likely be diagnosed with C-PTSD w/BPD traits.
also, nobody's ever addressed my sense of powerlessness and social isolation. I have a harder time being with people than alone. yet I'm BPD"? well, honestly, whatever! I tried for years to find "labels" that suit me, but none did. because, low and behold, I'm an individual! shocking, I know... BEWARE, people, of the field of psychology.. while you put your life on the line, literally, so that you wait to see your therapist for one whole hour. while they make their living off OF YOU. Months, and Years and years and Years later. you too, like me, might be left wondering: wheres my education? where's my house? where's my children that I can't have now? where's my natural supports? career? WHERE?
That "argument" against psychology as a field falls apart in a country with socialised healthcare. Stop discouraging people from seeking help because *your* experience of *your* care system was shit.
I have CPTSD , whilst I was a teenager I was completely powerless and may of seemed to appear to be BPD. Once I hit my 20's, I took matters into my own hands and as best as I could with what little at hand I was available I change my life. That's when the CPTSD was what I had to contend with. I have been around people with BPD and there is a big difference. I have a honesty and accountability which I didn't see in the people with BPD. CPTSD has a lot to do with the external factors imposing on a healthy person ( or not) , the entrapment of the situation is what causes the damage. People / children are resilient however only to a certain point. Think of it like a village which is under attack. I have a core sense of self with an awareness of what was lost and the humiliation of how I am different from those who had the same potential as I and had that potential developed due to a relatively healthy and resourceful life.
Interesting. I'd argue that bpd is a more extreme version of cptsd. A level 1 vs a level 5. In the UK, they don't call it bpd. They call it emotional dysregulation disorder, which is cptsd. Self harm, depression, and suicide is a natural consequence of serotonin and dopamine deficiencies and dysregulation. It makes sense that if you have realllllllllly bad dysregulation, it will lead to extreme behavior.
I'm finding it interesting that BPD is wrapped up with invalidation, and these people who claim that BPD doesn't exist because it's actually cptsd are completely invalidating our whole mental health experience. Thanks for that! (not)
They should move in with my ex husband and see how they're coping after 6 years of being forced at the edge of a weapon. Nuff details but trust me they would come back with CPTSD
@@danceswithcoyotes8273 as far as symptoms go cptsd doesnt require and is not characterized by fear of abandonment, unstable sense of self, unstable relationships, impulsivity, or inappropriate intense anger. In a study only 7.8% of cptsd patients met the criteria of bpd but 44.6% of people with bpd met cptsd criteria. So there is a lot of overlap but a lot of difference. Im sorry you dont deserve to be stigmatized by your therapist. That isnt real help.
'Ideological Trauma ' You mentioned it; I looked it up and WHAM!! That explains something I had been wondering about for more than 30 years without knowing what it was. Thank you Dr.
I believe these are the same disorders but from the differing school of thought. For instance, a patient being triggered may be interpreted by a psychoanalyst as "splitting" but that same reaction is interpreted by a trauma-informed professional as an "emotional flashback." Judith Herman was quite clear by her diagnosis of CPTSD - it was intended to replace BPD. She literally observed BPD patients to create that diagnosis. Now, some of those with CPTSD will present worse than others due to the type of trauma, and duration.
I have lived with C-PSTD for 20 years. I met a girlfriend diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder while both inpatients in private Hospital. Prior to C-PSTD symptoms becoming insurmountable, particularly in later life- I am now 40 years old- I spent 8 years of my life as a high achieving social work student. Each condition- is distinct and disparate. There is no relationship between symptoms I experience in lived experience- and the symptoms my 26 year old girlfriend diagnosed with Borderline personality. 12 months of spending time with her has resulted in learning further about the primary symptoms of her disorder. Inadvertently, she has provided me with greater insight and clarity surrounding my own experiences of living with C-PSTD. For example- I have never self harmed. Her anxiety is rooted in negative evaluations by others. My anxiety is a chronic and ceaseless sense of being unsafe or subject to harm. Her moods swing. I move from crippling depression- to days where I am "functional". I have a history of repeated and severe childhood trauma. She does not. The idea that C-PSTD is in anyway associated with Borderline personality Disorder- from someone who lives this condition 'moment by moment' appears absurd and nonsensical. Likewise- it is invalidating and more than a little frustrating to hear any expert- theorising within peer reviewed litriture that such a diagnosis is not required or should merely be designated as a sub-type of BPD. This amounts too Intelligence in service of ignorance. C-PTSD- is the only diagnosis that mirrors my lived experience with disturbing accuracy. Years of journaling- pre-empt and at times read akin too "current research findings" within C-PSTD to such a degree as to be at times uncanny. C-PTSD- is completely and utterly debilitating. I would not wish it upon anyone. C-PSTD will freeze a person in time. The developmental impacts collapse of meaning, flashbacks, long term dissociative states, self abandonment, a set point founded upon a terrifying perception of the world- are aspects of C-PSTD cannot be overstated. C-PTSD condition that is being lived out, experienced and endured by countless millions. My treatment- largely self directed through sheer force of will- and largely a educational awareness of the role of immense power inequality between patient and carer - has resulted in a focus upon use of the original MAIO inhibitors from four decades ago- in direct opposition to the absurd Psychiatrists who attempt- blindly adhering to status quo and pharmaceutical patents- to place me onto anti-psychotic medications which served to further exasperate symptoms. Privileging this- for your own clarity. There is no substitute for lived experience- when coupled with moderate education.
I do agree that there are significant differences between cptsd and bpd, but it can be confusing because there is so much overlap and the 2 are often comorbid. Also please understand that bpd is just as debilitating as cptsd is.
When he states that some individuals with the diagnosis of BPD have no trauma history. Or any memory of trauma. Early childhood trauma does not consist of a memory of the event but the body remembers the trauma through sensations; sounds, anxiety, touch, smell. I believe that we should have a diagnosis for complex ptsd. Not having a diagnosis in the dsm means we do not acknowledge it exists. Therefore we cannot effectively treat something that does not exist, or the wrong diagnosis is made and the patient is not getting the right treatment. Secondly insurance does not reimburse the provider for treatment if a diagnosis does not exist. Which leads a gap in the number of professionals who are trained in treating patients with trauma. Research on complex trauma is also limited because there is no funding for research if this disorder does not exist in the DSM. People who have chronic ongoing early childhood trauma do not always meet the criteria for ptsd. Because of the criteria of a traumatic event. A traumatic event is classified as an assault, war, abuse physical, or emotional. But what about a parent with a mental illness, growing up in a dysfunctional home, where the primary caregiver is still in their own trauma and not being able to meet the emotional needs of their children when the parents needs were never met, inter generational trauma. What about early life adversities, having medical problems as a child, learning disabilities, language delays, speech difficulties, surgery, emotional neglect by parents, being bullied by other kids in school, having dcf remove child from home and place child in the system, shelters, group homes with little to no support for child. Parents who are toxic with narcissistic traits which are subtle and go unseen to other adults. Living in poverty, where you’re environment is not safe. But trauma has to be concrete and fit into a nice category/ in a box. This is the problem with the dsm not everything fits into these nice boxes. Not all trauma have a memory in the brain but have a physical memory in the body. Not everyone who has trauma is able to verbalize what they have been through or even see it as a trauma. Some traumas are more subtle and are invisible to others except with household members. Especially with covert narcissist or who have these narcissistic traits. On the outside they appear loving, and wanting to help but no one sees how they act within the family system and if the child acts out or is verbally abusive then the child is seen as the problem rather then what was the cause of the behavior. Being invalidated by others and told your reality is inaccurate and distorted.
I think it's distinct; of course, I'm biased because I have CPSTD. I don't relate to the descriptions I've read about borderline personality disorder. (E.g., "emotional instability - the psychological term for this is affective dysregulation; disturbed patterns of thinking or perception - cognitive distortions or perceptual distortions; impulsive behaviour; intense but unstable relationships with others.") As a teen and young adult I was emotionally labile when it came to my self worth (and my self worth alone and that might affect my mood), which were related to disturbed patterns of thinking inculcated by my abuser. I was also living with my abuser and mentally unhealthy enough as a result to become involved with someone very similar to my abuser. That abusive relationship, where the other person blamed me and I didn't buy it (because people who rage love to make that other people's problems), I sought help. With one year of therapy, I was able to undo stinking thinking about myself (I'd never turned that outward toward others) and my self worth stopped bouncing all over the place. With that stable, I was able to regulate my emotions day in and day out--my moods were stable--, and I also learned how not to disassociate in situations that had caused that in the past (usually threats to my sense of self). STILL, despite a stable sense of self, and this is the important part about CPTSD, I'd get triggered with emotional flashbacks. However, I knew they were not rooted in the present, I practiced radical acceptance and was open to what my body and psyche were trying to tell me about the trauma of my past and why I might be triggered in the present. I could work as a professional in the middle of a flashback. You can have CPSTD and mostly heal (feel like you've completely healed), and yet still get severely triggered and thrown back into physical and feeling symptoms that don't include poor self esteem, guilt, decreased self worth. (For example, I've not had trust issues and yet a severe trigger two years ago triggered incredible distrust over a long period, forcing me back into counseling so I could get to the bottom of the trauma from childhood that still needed attention.) No one, not even someone or events from my past can make me feel unworthy now; I have a stable sense of self. But like a commenter below, my sympathetic nervous system is on. I have trouble sleeping (in part because some of the abuse happened in the night), and I must avoid scary and suspenseful movies, meditate, and take care because CPTSD is hard on the body. Lastly, I'm not in charge when I might be severely triggered (triggers that reverberate for months and months and even years), which has only happened twice in my life. (With less severe triggers along the way and virtually no triggers between the 1st and 2nd severe trigger, which were over a decade apart. I've found that severe triggers can be quite healing if I get help to grieve and release the trauma.) Complete healing may be outside of my grasp. I can't know because I don't know where the trauma is stored... I don't know what might be unfinished business because the trauma started so early in life. Trauma lives in the body and the brain. When not triggered severely, I regulate myself just fine. (And I begin to regulate myself again after a time following a severe trigger even when I know it is still impacting me and I have significant work to do.) Even when triggered I almost always regulate my conduct just fine unless it's severe--the people around me typically don't pick up on the fact that I'm triggered.
I worked with a therapist for three years before I recently discovered CPTSD and BPD - on my own - on RUclips. I always wondered how much my childhood had affected my life and I came across videos of people describing exactly what I was going through! I was so shocked that I immediately wrote my therapist an angry email and asked her WHY didn't she ever tell me that something like this existed?? She seemed a tad upset about it and explained that she wasn't that type of therapist although she treats eating disorders which I believe are trauma-related? Anyway, she did set out to find me a therapist who specialized in CPTSD and I believe we found one. I had one session with this new therapist so far and I cannot even tell you how incredible it was to have someone talk to me knowing that I had been through so much and understands why I have become the way I am. I am 68 years old and my life has been hell. I'm currently divorcing my third husband so this new therapist couldn't have come at a better time. Thank you Dr. Grande for giving your views on the comparisons of CPTSD and BPD, it's scary stuff but it feels incredible to finally have a name put to my misery.
I cannot afford any consultations as it means eating or not eating. I have listened to many teaching/discussions of these matters. When it comes to making decisions on what I think and do I know I cannot trust my own impulse on what to do so I follow Gods law and try to conduct myself accordingly. That with prayer is my best guideline. God loves me the psychologist is neutral as he is doing his job
I have C-PTSD and am a former mental health professional. I fought the diagnosis of BPD because it had such a negative contation, plus I never had enough of the criteria at any one time to have the diagnosis of BPD. Thus, for many years I only had the diagnosis of bipolar- until I read about C-PTSD in the ICD. I should have had different treatment, and worked through things by myself. I haven't been on anything for mood disorder since I found that Clonidine works better, by accident when given it for my blood pressure. Since memories surfaced I do get triggered and that's what has caused me the most difficulty functioning. I have every bit as much difficulty finding and keeping housing as any military vet because of triggering. At 66 years of age, I have numerous chronic medical issues and have spent much of my time homeless. I also founded SEASCAT, a Supportive Environment for Adult Survivors of Child Abuse & Trauma with the mission of spreading the word about the difficulties of those who survive abusive childhoods. Thank you for speaking with fair objectivity. There is overlap, but not all with C-PTSD are BPD.
Thank you for the comment about clonidine. I take it for blood pressure and have noticed it helps my adjustment disorder and insomnia, stemming from serious physical illness. I'm 68, and also a former mental health professional. I congratulate you for having turned your lemons into lemonade by helping others. You go girl!
Cptsd= risk avoidance, isolation, social paranoia, "walled off," PTSD symptoms (rigid muscles, nightmares, depression, fight or flight anxiety, hyper alert, agorophobia, sleep disturbances) numb, problems expressing or realizing feelings, anger/rage bc of feelings of powerlessness, victimization. Whereas BPD = "I don't know who I am," "get away/don't leave me," inability to be alone, impulsive decisions/risk taking, attention seeking, mirroring behaviors "I am you," inappropriately intense feelings, "fast friends," bad interpersonal boundaries, self harm or threats, manipulative. Usually involves narcissistic or neglectful family unit.
I really enjoy watching your videos Dr Grande, i think they are really informative, even though i have to rewatch them a few times for the facts to sink in. I just thought i'd give you some feedback, please don't take offense, i just found that the additional links at the end of the video a bit distracting during the videos conclusion, maybe it would be better if they popped up after the conclusion when you come to near close with the line 'if you find'. This way i get to enjoy hearing your final summary. I do like your videos though and i appreciate the well structured analytical insights you offer into mental health.
I'mj having a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that suicidal tendancies are not a symptom on PTSD. I thought PTSD raised the risk of Suicide significantly? The very Nature of PTSD would make Suicidal tendancies to be a symptom of that disorder as wellI thought.
I would disagree..I have been diagnosed with PTSD and only became suicidal once when the very trauma I had experienced repeated itself..once that re-truama was taken away I have not ever been suicidal again. As a clinician I have worked with clients with PTSD inclduing soldiers from war experieicning severe trauma with no suicidal ideation or tendencies or minimal incidences of sucidial tendencies. Many people with PTSD can utilize protective factors..wanting to be there for family..wanting to reach personal goals..religion..which minimizes sucidial tendencies. Other clients do have high suicidal tendencies..its all very individualized.
CPTSD can alter the genetics and make the brain different. Think of the impact of communal trauma due to war and genocide and no wonder people might be affected and changed. BPD and CPTSD are similar. A primary difference is avoidance and withdrawal due to CPTSD as opposed to abandonment fears in BPD. Emotional dysregulation occurs due to multiple triggers in CPTSD whereas rejection and abandonment fears are the primary cause of emotional dysregulation in BPD. BPD has a genetic component. CPTSD largely arises due to repeated trauma and struggling to survive and feel safe in an abusive, hostile, exploitative and dangerous environment. Think being easily aroused and living with an internal war zone in the brain due to a dread of abandonment versus being traumatised by an external warzone and craving personal safety more than connection..
Very interesting! I'd never heard of this before but had asked a mental health Dr if I might have ptsd...she said No without knowing *any* of my history. This makes a lot of sense for me, considering the unusual and complex abuse/treatment I experienced from a variety of people.
I thought this video helped me to understand C-PTSD much better than the last video. It was interesting to learn about the theories on C-PTSD and BPD. After considering the theories, I feel that C-PTSD should be distinct from BPD. It was also helpful to learn that BPD has significant genetic components for developing the disorder. However, I can see how BPD and C-PTSD criterion overlap, such as having a history of childhood trauma or complex trauma.
I was first diagnosed Bipolar Disorder, then PTSD was added, then Boarder line personality disorder. During a therapy session, I was diagnosed with complex PTSD. When it was explained to me what Complex PTSD was it made perfect sense because I lived through many tramatic events during childhood and adult. I experience symptoms of all three so it's a bit confusing. I'm permanently disabled as a result of all 3 disorders. I still to this day do not understand all of it. I just feel really broken. I've been in therapy for years. Finally I got the right therapy and things started to change. Isolation and bordom we're triggers. Trusting was an issue, anger almost destroyed me. Loud noises, to many people around me, nonsense talking drives me crazy, procrastination, loss of interest, lack of motivation, hating self, fear, so many symptoms for years. I would like it all explained to me in laymen's terms. I want to clearly understand what is and had going on with me. I've dealt with this since I was 28 years old, I'm 63 years old now. And I'm just starting to make progress.
I agree with you Dr.Grande. They need their own distinct classifications. The same as Covert/Vulnerable Narcissist need their own classification and subtypes. Ex: Covert/Malignant etc....
I think eventually all these disorders will fall under the umbrella of cptsd. That goes for BPD, Anxiety, depression, bipolar, ocd, narcisstic and all addictions. I think all is caused by trauma and trauma is generational. Trauma rearranges the brain and i dont understand why it takes professionals so long to understand this. Why is CPTSD still not in the dsm guide. I live in NYC and the twelve step programs are packed everynight with lonely people struggling with fear and abandonment that were traumatized in alcoholic or dysfuntional homes. Abandonment is absolutely a sign of cptsd it is the main issue. In actuality these disorders stem from trauma wounds usually very early in life.
As a trauma therapist, I don't see CPTSD as a subtype of BPD. I question the symptoms of BPD even being a personality disorder. I see it as a dissociative response. The other personality disorders in Cluster B are likely forms of attachment disorder. PTSD should be recategorized as PTSR, post-traumatic stress response. It's largely an adaptive response to extreme stress, which can persist after it's needed. CPTSR should be included in the next DSM. That way, society can stop stigmatizing and blaming survivors of trauma for their symptoms for a change. The fact that 10 % of people diagnosed with BPD don't have a clear trauma history makes sense if you consider attachment wounds. They are seldom identified outside of therapy. Doesn't mean they aren't there. Additionally, traumatic events are often not remembered due to happening during the pre-verbal period of development or having been dissociated out of conscious memory.
I do believe BPD exists but is extremely rare. Typically BPD is misdiagnosed for domestic violence victims when their abuser goes to the sessions and the counselor fails to recognize the abuse. Some C-PTSD triggers can look like BPD symptoms. Abuse survivors might be triggered by invalidation. Rape survivors, and those who experienced traumatic death of loved ones, may be triggered by abandonment, but that still doesn't mean they have BPD. pwBPD have more identity disturbance, like he said in the video, they are on the border, whereas pwC-PTSD may behave similarly, but the cause is triggers, flooding, false guilt. Anyone who has been diagnosed with BPD, in my opinion, should see someone who specializes in C-PTSD for a second opinion.
Whenever I get in a relationship and my bpd starts to show all my CPTSD symptoms show back up or get worse like agoraphobia, panic attacks, flash backs, nightmares, insomnia, self mutilation, rage and even short bouts of psychosis where I honestly believe someone wants to kill me or have me kill myself and I'll actually believe that for a period. Ugh I wish they would go away
c-ptsd is quite a wide group. I would theorise that c-ptsd should replace a lot of things, though perhaps not under narrow criteria. I think the personality disorders will be subgroups of C-PTSD, its just they are usually C-PTSD PLUS SOMETHING ELSE such as developmental factors and hereditary factors. A striking difference will be the age the trauma has taken place. And that given trauma occurs as a cause in many with personality disorders, this trauma will continue and thus produce a later stage trauma on top of the personality disorder, i.e. c-ptsd. Nonetheless since the misdiagnosis of BPD is so common, we might agree that the CURRENT population has a lot of people with c-ptsd who are given an erroneous label of BPD. The other conclusion is that since BPD is so varied it should be split into those with c-ptsd subgroup and standard BPD group, without necessarily being a wrong diagnosis, just that BPD is not specific enough of a concept in the first place and needs dividing... the fact that it can't cover the totality of BPD doesn't mean its not a consideration to replace a significant subset, and that suggests that something other than 'borderline' is needed- its just you happen to be using that as the benchmark, whilst others may use c-ptsd as the benchmark. In luck, the next ICD won't include Borderline, it WILL include C-PTSD, so go figure.
What if BPD is actually subtype of C-PTSD, and so are many other personality disorders? The disorder that results is perhaps related to the type(s) of abuse, and the inherent personality of the victim. For example perhaps BPD is a form of C-PTSD caused by early childhood abandonment plus specific personality traits. And perhaps NPD is formed in response to narcissistic abuse combined with certain personality traits, or maybe combined with other types of abuse. Attachment style + personality + type of abuse = resulting symptoms
Dr Grande is *just* detached enough for me to trust him! Objectively he's doing a great job describing the differences... But my subjective ass cannot decide between the two for myself, or maybe I don't have to choose hmmn... Yep. That's why I like him 🤘
Thank you for this very indepth video. I believe they're both very different diagnoses, and perhaps cptsd is a consequence of boarderline/narccisstic parenting.
![What are Flashbacks? (Posttraumatic Stress Disorder [PTSD] - Intrusion Symptom)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Y9KxeTQg3iE/mqdefault.jpg)
![What are Flashbacks? (Posttraumatic Stress Disorder [PTSD] - Intrusion Symptom)](/img/tr.png)
Raise your hand if you think more people need to hear about complex ptsd?! Cause not many people know about and are suffering with it!
I have CPTSD and I agree 100%! The fact that people want to lump CPTSD together with BPD is clearly a lack of understanding about this. One thing that Dr. Grande didn't mention is that BPD is a personality disorder. CPTSD is a mental condition (clearly brought on by trauma). Comparing apples and oranges is not helpful (not that Dr. Grande is trying to do that - but whomever is doesn't get it).
@@OnsceneDC he stated that cptsd in not in DSM, but it is still a disorder anyway.
Right on! I have CPTSD, too, and have been struggling with it far TOO LONG.
@@OnsceneDC You hit the nail on the head. I noticed that, too.
Mike Raskin It’s not a disorder, it’s a psychological injury.
Completely separate! They don’t talk about all the physical body issues with CPTSD
Memory loss, chronic fatigue, tremors, headaches, Fibromyalgia. There is so many physical symptoms that is not being documented with chronic PTSD and PTSD. People don’t talk about that part of it but it’s extremely physical.
if you dont have a lot of money and or good health insurance you will just be treated for a disorder the practitioners have had more experience with i.e. schizophrenia, bi-polar. You will be gaslighted by the mental health system when consistent gaslighting from very early on is what caused your condition to begin with.
Omg well said! And so true..for me too
So well said
Absolutely! Loads of women are wrongly diagnosed with BPD or bipolar when they have CPTSD alone (or have some symptoms that flirt with the other two--and what young abused person doesn't?) and/or autism. Lots of my autistic women friends were wrongly diagnosed with BPD before getting their autism diagnosis.
I agree. C-PTSD should be viewed independently of BPD. Thank you for your video
You're welcome!
I think the inescapable nature of the traumatic abuse suffered by those with C-PTSD versus PTSD deserves to be highlighted. Like those soldiers who received their traumatic injury in the battlefield, children who suffered their injuries in the family home also were not free to leave their traumatic environment. I tried a couple of times as a child, didn't work out so well. The 24/7 thing, combined with never knowing when, are factors I would identify as being amongst the hardest to deal with.
There's a significant, measurable difference between PTSD and CPTSD. "The World Health Organization now recognizes CPTSD as an official diagnosis with more symptoms, greater impairment, and more detrimental effects on life than uncomplicated PTSD."
so many people walking around with a misdiagnosis and waiting on "experts" to make a decision on their behalf, meanwhile the reality of living with it and never knowing when it is going to raise it's head again is a very different thing. half the problem is tbat they still don't understand ptsd, let alone c-ptsd in kids and how it changes your whole wiring as it is forming. I think that people need to understand that the reality of it never really goes away it just fluctuates in depth.
💑💞yes xo
EXACTLY !!!
I'm so sick of men , and thier BULLSHIT diagnostics.
I am intersexed, and always looked more feminine .
I was groomed by my father sexually beginning around 6 , my father sexually abused me , my younger brother sexually abused me , boys at school assaulted me ( physically and sexually )
At 17 , I was a victim of human trafficking , repeatedly beaten and raped ......but the psychiatrist who was a man from Zambia or Zimbabwe diagnosed me as BPD with self grandiose behavior.
That FUCKER told my mother , people with BPD make up stories for attention.
My mother said " why didn't you tell anyone ? " and I told her repressed memories of severe trauma are shut down by the brain .
I didn't choose to forget it untill 2014 ....
False memories don't trigger us to dissociate and black out and get sick several times a day for months .
Unlike transgender women, I have ovaries and testicles AND if I don't get surgery I will get cancer ....
I was lucky to attend a local women's sexual assault recovery program and the other women in the group accepted me being there .
How can men actually empathize with the horrors women suffer through , they can't!!!
@@AMOEDEN888 you have ovaries and testicles? I thought this was impossible due to them being the same thing?
I have CPTSD due to having grown up in an oppressive, abusive, fundamentalist Christian cult. IMO, the overlap between CPTSD and BPD is a bit dubious. My personality is *not* disordered. What I do have is a perpetually "on" sympathetic nervous system "fight or flight" threat assessment/response, which besides being exhausting, usually means that I tend to withdraw from people and situations I know will increase my stress level. Borderlines usually don't do that.
Me too! ....all but the fundamentalist Christian cult part. I see these as completely different processes, even if they were both caused by trauma. I mean, even things such as NPD are are exacerbated, if not caused by, trauma... but they are still very different disorders. My CPTSD is nothing like BPD....I have none of the fear of abandonment, none of the unstable sense of self, no self harming or suicidal behaviors...and even with the "overlapping symptoms" I could only identify two that were a "sometimes yes, depending on the situation". The "experts" should really get the feedback of those who have these disorders before lumping them together. I feel that doing so could make treatment much more difficult.
Well put
What kind of abuse did you suffer?
The: They are not the same, but the symptoms are similar enough that misdiagnoses happen fairly often. Also, there is overlap. I believe that is what they are saying.
I grew up in a fundamentalist christian cult during the Satanic Panick 80's....CPTSD is the only way you survive, cause it's either get CPTSD or die. I'm still alive, so of course I'm broken. So much sexual, mental, physical and spiritual abuse....and I'm not free from them cause they STALK anyone who dares to leave them....they promise that you will have terrible painful life and "God" has cursed to "walk this earth in misery" if you leave them. So yeah, never getting free will break a human being eventally and I don't know if I can stop myself from breaking anymore
I am a clinician and I treated individuals with BPD my entire career. I also have CPTSD. I can not fathom it as being the same as BPD. Yes, there is overlap, but so many MH dxs have overlap. And unfortunately, I’ve found the differentiation does have an impact on how pts are perceived by providers (which is a whole different topic). CPTSD almost perfectly captures my experience and when I learned of it I cried tears of relief. The idea of it being classified as BPD is anthema to my experience, both as a patient and as a provider. I see how it can be attractive to do so- but if we start lumping dxs together because of overlapping sxs we are doing a huge disservice to our pts. The fact that this conversation is happening in the community reflects the general lack of true understanding of what c-ptsd is on the parts of those saying it’s a subset of BPD and I think your video does a good job of flushing out just a few of the reason as to why this is.
@Oliver The Chinchilla
I agree. Lumping them together is doing more harm than good. It's horrible.
Personally, I had a friend who was diagnosed BPD in her young adulthood. She has classic Borderline traits, minus suicide attempts, however, she has thought about it but *"fears going to hell more."* . So it's out of the question.
But she splits often, has no *close* friendships that have lasted years, because the idealization and devaluing happens every few months with her.
The fear of abandonment also prevents her from responding to things as innocent as a text messages. She says she has a fear or reading something she doesn't like and end up losing the person. She constantly fears losing people, yet she does plenty to push them away when she feels engulfed. And like a lot of BPD sufferers, when they find themselves at a certain point of closeness to another person....they begin to feel controlled and engulfed.
But then again, if she calls or texts me, I am to answer right away or be accused of ignoring her. But never once has she answered the phone when I called her out of the blue. She's always too busy to talk when called, but she becomes livid *or* anxious when people are not responding to her phone calls. She honestly cannot see any of it.
But the fear of abandonment and the splitting are clear indications that her past diagnosis of BPD are correct. Problem is, the online forum of BPD is running to CPTSD as a sort of denial. And since people with BPD have a distorted reality and cannot see themselves clearly, CPSTD will almost always ring true to them as the core problem.
It's really sad because lumping them together and claiming everyone was just "misdiagnosed" is becoming a stumbling block to healing for the people who were *correctly* diagnosed.
And I can fully understand ,with all the stigma of BPD, why they would so desperately want to believe it's CPTSD instead. But all the confusion is not helping. Notwithstanding that a person may even have comorbidity.
I wish more doctors would be as clear as this man is. Because a personality disorder *is* different than a stress disorder, just as you have stated in your comment. I'm glad you found out the truth.
I agree. Im classic CPTSD and suffer awful abandonment shame isolation i get triggered im totally vulnerable. Abandonment is in every program in NYC. It is the root of every disorder. Why wouldnt they mention CPTSD with awful emptiness feelings of abandonment. This information is false. BPD is not the only that suffer a void so do alcoholics love addicts anxuety and i hate to tell you they all fall under the umbrella of cptsd. Trauma is generational usually it is a snowball effect. Traumatized parents create traumatized children. Get sick of these professionalsm
I unfortunately have CPTSD that was triggered again from recent trauma and made worse and it is nothing like borderline . Therapy has helped as well , quickly giving me the tools . Isolation is preferred because it is safe , my emotions no not escalate , I do not rage. Shame is a big part and then guilt for isolation. Plagued with trauma memories breaks my heart over over. I do not have patience for abusive people and immediately put them out of my life without a second thought. I have no trust which I hope to regain soon . I was also raised in a radical Christian environment, forced to forgive those who hurt me . Led to people pleasing codependency . I did not choose it, I was taught it . I do believe CPTSD can heal it takes a lot of work and compassion for yourself. I do believe many people suffer from ptsd and are misdiagnosed . From my experience ptsd and cptsd do not go happy high goofy playful to raging . We are just on high alert overly careful and sad . As time goes on tho (Years) it gets better . Borderlines tend to behave erratically ... CPTSD (alone) sufferers do not ... opinions anyone ?
Agreed!
CPTSD sufferers(I am one) tend to isolation and they also don't care much about socialization. Not to say at all.
Also, CPTSD sufferers don't feat abandonment. Instead, a lot of them have impaired bonding, me included.
Why would I miss a person who thankfully shut the f*** up and left me alone in peace and will give me the gift of not coming back? I won't!
Emotional dependence is not an usual CPTSD trait. To avoid dependants and dependence itself tend to be a CPTSD trait.
We don't fall in love immediately like BPDs do, because we don't even trust people, right? Most specialists tend to forget this vital trait which can lead to differ both DXs.
...and I'm a healthcare professional! 😊
I love to help and treat people, but at the end of the day, I just wish for my solitude and not even my husband is able to reach me.
Thankfully, he's comprehensive about it due to the fact that his CPTSD is worse than mine.
Hello Heather, could You please tell me where are You from? Because I was also raised in a radical Christian environment and forced to forgive and maintain a contact with my abusive, narcissistic relatives who enjoyed putting me down, neglecting and insulting me in my childhood. I wish You all the best .. I hope that God is not so intimidating as Catholic church want to present to us.
@@m.n.8822 God loves you and is a compassionate and kind father. I relate to your upbringing and God is nothing like the judgmental and narcissistic people that raised us so I never threw out the baby with the bath water. I know God hates abuse and oppression and I find comfort in reading the Bible daily.
@@flgal7788 I'm sorry but your comment is the last thing that a victim of religious abuse needs. Don't shove your beliefs down their throat. It's triggering, invalidating, and highly inappropriate.
Actually cptsd is a lot like borderline. It is true that the main difference is bpd fears abandonment whereas cptsd would rather self isolate, but cptsd also often experiences high emotional instability and rage, whereas not everyone with bpd does rage, especially quiet borderlines. Nor do borderlines go from happy and goofy to raging. It does not work like that. What happens is something reminds us of our trauma that triggers our fight or flight instinct which can manifest in many different ways, and as I'm sure you know the exact same thing happens with cptsd, which is why people with just cptsd can also rage out when triggered and can act just as erratically as some borderlines can (again not all borderlines are erratic or rageful). Both disorders also feel intense and chronic guilt and shame, and neither choose their disorder.
I have both, I think they’re connected but different. For example I can function with BPD but CPTSD shuts me down completely. I can’t eat, sleep/or I oversleep, I self isolate, anxiety overwhelms me, I remember everything, every hurt, pain & humiliation like it was yesterday. Any reminder of the incidents that traumatised me makes me numb & dissociate. Whereas with BPD, I had an amnesia of sorts & never thought about my past. I had typical BPD behaviours but I never felt traumatised & for the most part people rarely noticed because I hid it so well with a false persona. Point is you can hide BPD, pretend to be normal, fit in to some degree but there is no hiding CPTSD, it’s the worst kind of vulnerability. Just my thoughts
Live Life Well explained. This is exactly how I experience the two. Once CPTSD overwhelms me, I too also shut down. I am currently in the grips of CPTSD and have been for many months. However just the other day I faced another trigger which made me want to self harm. I have not done this for a long time. I was completely out of control. I felt like getting into my car and driving full speed into a concrete wall, or cutting up my wrists. Now I’m beginning to have delusions. I’m also always tired, totally self isolated and extremely anxious. To top it off, there’s just no help where I live for disorders and mental health.
Live Life wow. Agreed
I've been able to hide most triggers from CPTSD (I don't have BPD) except for the severe ones and like you said my severe triggers shut me down... it's like being in the middle of a crisis... like reliving the chaos of the abuse and there was no hiding it. Hiding the less severe triggers came by necessity because people didn't understand (thought it weird and I was already undiagnosed autistic and weird enough), and I had work to do and a life with demands. AND, more importantly, I could almost always figure out the more mild triggers within minutes, hours, or days and so I had a sense of mastery... I could ride the fear. But that's just the triggers. There's also the hypervigilance, sleep issues generally, nightmares, and the toll on the body when the sympathetic nervous system is on all the time. And early on even the mild triggers caused me to disassociate. Thank goodness that doesn't happen any longer. Healing, maybe not complete, is possible.
@@sassycassie5478 Sorry you are going through this. I hope you are doing better.
The vulnerability is really bad. I used to think i had borderline tendensies cause i always bit my nails but then i was diagnosed with cptsd and have all the symptoms. Sometimes i feel so vulnerable i dont want to leave the house. I am grieving alot which is thawing the trauma and im getting stronger but i still get hurt so easily. I am learning compassion for myself which is helping with all the shame which is what fuels addictive behaviors and im learning to love myself. Everyday i get alittle stronger but i think i will always be vulnerablem
I was abused by a violent narcisstic mother and I was finally diagnosed with bpd when I was 25 cause I couldn't go on and I needed someone to tell me what was happening to me. I didn't take it very well though at first... The therapist or whatever he was was very judgemental of me like I was a bad person. I studied bpd after that and I cried for a long time, I wondered why I was torturing myself but then I realized I was healing. Ive known about CPSD for years now and based on my symptoms reducing with constantly researching bpd I thought it was probably cpsd but honestly I don't know. I can't think clearly and can't see myself from an outside perspective and do have shifting sense of self so maybe it is bpd. Its a living hell... I thought I would be free when I grew up but the scars from my childhood still effect almost every aspect of my adult life and iam completely isolated. I'm learning to trust myself and others and if they hurt me I don't take it so personally as I once did but I can't break out of the avoidance pattern and I'm terrified if dying alone, theres never anybody there when I turn around and I know I'm doing it to myself but I don't know how to stop
Misdiagnosed 60 yr old, BDP anxiety Depression but just diagnosed with autism. Traumatic childhood and cpstd now raises it head and makes more sense than bdp.
My OH has CPTSD and I am a mental health clinician working with people who have BPD. It's just not the same. I can see how other clinicians only spending an hour at a time with someone in a controlled environment wouldn't appreciate the differences, but when you live every day among people carrying both diagnoses the differences are really very obvious. It is also obvious when people have both CPTSD and BPD concurrently. The mental health profession needs to do better, psychiatry and psychology needs to work together cohesively so that people receive the correct diagnosis and treatment.
I am so happy you made this video. I have CPTSD. Some of your other videos were shaking my confidence and making me wonder whether I might have a personality disorder.
I knew deep down I didn't but when you have been gaslighted as much as I was, there are times when you can still question yourself.
I know what happened.
I don't know if I can safely agree that a percentage of BPD did not have trauma. Trauma, particularly emotional is much harder to nail down, and we are also including infant trauma without memory. Sensitive individuals can also narrow in on the emotional scars from their parents which may look like a hereditary piece. A distant or post-partum depressive mother could affect the feelings of safety of a small child or baby. I am not disagreeing that there may be some differences in what we see when describing the two disorders. But I wonder if they are just slight variations on the theme of trauma effects.
I have Both cptsd severly abused from time I can rememeber sexually until I was 10. I also was diagnosed with Bpd, Anxiety, Cptsd. I battle everyday to overcome. I am not ashamed.I fight daily to survive and everyday lived is another day I am one step closer to overcoming.I have Bpd but have never hurt anyone, I rarely yell it scares me. I have never hit anyone or thrown things. Violence scares me especially yelling. I do have alot of inward anger though at myself.
Jessica Bowman Sorry about what happened to you Jessica. You are not alone, I know how you battle everyday to keep 'You' alive. Much respect for keeping up the good fight.
Try to be gentle with yourself, be on your side. Remember always, you are the 'Star' of your life, you are more than worth it - You are It! Peace.
You can do it!!!
Same here. If I even feel anger inside trying to escape to hurt another. I will go into isolation mode instead. Abused from 3 to 19 than abusive fiance from 27 to 38. It oftan feels like impending doom is always lurking. I was diagnosed with Aniexty and BPD at 14. Somehow Austin lost my mental records. Now SSA has denied me two times. And misdiagnosed me with fracking, Bipolar disorder. I feel I have progressed to BDP Cluster C and C-PTSD sadly. We all fight it on a daily basis to live. Ty for sharing your story and courage. Blessings....
Jessica B me 2
Stay strong
i think many of the personality disorders are a result of CPTSD, they are ways the person has learned how to cope with their situation.
Tosca Tattertail I am sharing this believe more and more myself which pleads to state that there might be a strong comorbidity.
Very much agree, i am old now and my life has been ruined by this, word complex really does give a clue, world of pain and disfunction, in short living hell. BPD or CPTSD does not make one person better or worse, both deserve understanding and compassion i believe.
Agreed
@@nigelbaldwin752 and therapy
I agree and yet not everyone with CPTSD has a personality disorder. It likely has to do with how nature and nurture and what's particular to the person meets. I think it's important to not lose sight of people's trauma. At the same time, I'm not going to stay in relationship with a sociopath or a narcissistic simply because they were abused as a child. It's one thing to be empathetic as a therapist or from a distance and it's another thing to be in relationship with someone who directly harms you.
no denying the high prevalence of early childhood trauma
The fact that a surprisingly large percentage of people have ACE scores of 3 or more prove that. It has a lot to do with the increase in obesity and substance abuse out there now. You would find the work of Dr. Vincent Felletti on adverse childhood experience very interesting.
As a person who has CPTSD, I can say that I immediately identified w it once it was suggested to me after decades of misdx. Every person I have met/spkn with, we completely related. I also have met with many BPD women over the years and we noticed markedly different experiences/symptoms and shared a few. JFYI. 😊
My sister has BPD, my ex has CPTSD. While my sister did have trauma that did manifest itself in BPD, they both had extremely different disorders. What would have worked for one definitely would not have worked for the other. Their behavior when insecure was different, and my sister fluctuated all the time, while my ex's behavior was consistent daily.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I do feel the combined need to reconceptualize BPD and define CPTSD just ends up convincing people that they must be the same disorder, without taking into consideration that people with BPD and a trauma history may also have symptoms relevant to CPTSD. It’s interesting because it somewhat displays the difficulty that people have with allowing separate ideas to exist without lumping them together or polarizing them.
As someone who was abused in all forms, from physical to sexual to neglect, for 13 years, from 8 yo to 21 yo when I had to leave my so called family to escape after my great grandmother passed, I have C-PTSD, BPD and NVS to show for it all. My abuser(s) were narcissistic and kept kicking me back down when I tried to reach out for a help. As a result, I don't ever ask for help even when I know I need it. I can barely hold a job that I have to keep to survive even thoughit makes me wish I were dead most of the time. I withdraw from most people everyday. It's exhausting to force myself to talk when I don't want to, I don't trust a soul because everyone who I should have been able to trust turned on me when I was just a child. I can't even afford to get the help I need even though it's supposed to be provided through my state.
I fully think that C-PTSD and BPD need their own unique diagnosis and classification. I know PTSD sufferers can't escape their trauma either, but it is so much easier to build someone back up from one trauma when they have who they were before that trauma occured to work towards. How do you repair someone who was never developed into a whole individual before that trauma began, and went on for the entirety of their formulative years? There is nothing to build back to. It sucks to live like this. I'd not ever wish it on anyone. Just my perspective on the comparison. There are overlapping traits and characteristics, but they are entirely different in almost every way.
"How do you repair someone who was never developed into a whole individual before that trauma began, and went on for the entirety of their formulative years?"
This really resonated with me, Forky Kitty. Thank you.
I've always felt like I'm in this constant remodel project, where the walls were built crooked, the stairs were made wobbly, the wood in the floor is rotten.
So, throughout my life, I've tried tearing down a wall here, replacing some stairs there, in remodeling myself and my life via therapy and recovery. But, the real issue is the foundation. There's too much sand in the concrete, as it were. It was never solid to begin with.
So, thank you for your honesty and for being real. The only thing I've figured out so far, for me, is to just keep pursuing healing, and try to be kind to myself as I do.
I’ve been diagnosed with impulse control disorder and bipolar 2....I know in my heart that it’s wrong, and discovering CPTSD really helped me... because I finally found a diagnosis. I can only heal from here on out
was "diagnosed" with bpd in 2015. But I had a brutal childhood. In my very very strong opinion after years of researching and looking for answers in alll kinds of places, i truly believe BPD is not a real disorder. quote me on this in 50 years or so when scientists and doctors realize, that no, the symptoms even of "BPD" are from triggers. deeeep, emotional major triggers. you can trigger yourself, due to your childhood trauma, just thinking about it and subconsciously or consciously triggering how traumatized you felt in the past. Sure doctors can label BPD patients having suicidal thoughts and actions, but have they dug deeper as to WHY? It is ALL rooted in TRAUMA. NO BABY on earth is born suicidal. Just as no baby is born racist/sexist/homophobic. Something happened to that person to TRAUMATIZE them deeply enough to want to leave earth or feel like they dont belong here. People are not suicidal for no reason. Therefor the things that differentiate BPD and CTPSD are truly irrelevant, because it all goes back to trauma. He quoted a statistic that a 10-20% of BPD patients have no history of trauma, but, how do doctors know for sure? How do they know that this person is not so cut off from the event in their own mind and don't even realize what happened to them WAS NOT NORMAL. A lot of people normalize extremely traumatic and toxic things, ESPECIALLY if that is all they know, if they were born into a toxic reality. How can you tell a doctor you were traumatized if your version of trauma does not match what trauma really is. I firmly believe this, and am eventually writing a book on my life and experiences with how far behind, even in 2019 we are in mental health research and development.
*also, his stats on the genetic make up of those behind BPD, I'd argue the pain body theory. There is evidence that we can carry trauma from previous generations through our genes. Therefor again, even if this baby IS born with these genes, Id ask, what is the family history of mental health like?
As someone who has been diagnosed with CPTSD and doesn't have BPD, I found this video very interesting and helpful. Thank you!
I appreciate this explanation so much. I think I have BPD but sometimes I think " idk maybe it's just CPTSD." You reminded me that I'm confused af for a reason and the most important thing is to find a treatment model that improves my symptoms.
I have been diagnosed with Borderline and PTSD, along with Depression that never goes away and Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I was not sexually abused as a child, but had a very dominant and critical mother, so there was a lot of emotional/verbal abuse. I was just diagnosed with Borderline three years ago. This was a very upsetting thing for me, because I had heard so many bad things about it. I have researched it enough to know that I have the "Quiet" kind - I rarely yell and have never yelled at a significant other, have never thrown things, I am very non confrontational. I do have a tendency to sabotage relationships - "They are going to leave me anyway, so I might as well make sure it happens now instead of later." Now I am 51 and all alone, so I can't do that damage to myself anymore! I go in cycles where I want to learn more about theses things so I can understand myself better, and not wanting to know because it makes me so sad that I am all broken inside.
I did find this very interesting, thank you! Dialectical Behavioral Therapy has completely changed my life as someone with PTSD and a few other disorders that aren't BPD even though it was developed for borderline treatment. I think just about anyone who is suffering or doesn't feel like life is worth living could take something valuable from it.
Wouldn't it make sense for C-PTSD to be a subtype of PTSD?
from a person who has lived with cptsd for about 36 of 42 years, cptsd is very real whether the "experts who study humans and their behavior" but dont experience it can recognise it or not. I was also told that bpd was the root but I now know that to be ill-informed and based more on hypothesis than fact.
I sure hope that those debating this issue have considered getting the input of those who have experienced these disorders first hand. As a person who was diagnosed 20 years ago with PTSD, which I have personally come to understand is actually CPTSD (a distinction which didn't really exist 20 years ago) I feel strongly that my own symptoms (if they are in fact "officially" CPTSD) are very distinct from BPD and that we do need both classifications available. I do feel that my own needs are substantially different from the needs of someone suffering the symptoms you list under BPD....and it just seems like mental health professionals could be easily mislead and confused by combining the two...either as one diagnosis OR even as CPTSD becoming a subtype of BPD... and would just lead to more time, and more frustration for clients such as myself, who are already struggling and may have trouble trusting that their therapists have the competence to actually understand their symptoms well enough to help. I feel like the existence of some "overlap of symptoms" is not at all a good reason to assume that they are enough alike to combine them in any substantial way.
Me too
CPTSD should definitely be considered more, because PTSD is more relevant to factors that more directly threaten a persons life, however there are people like myself who gets into an erratic, anxious state simply because I had my wellbeing threatened, and thus my life threatened but it was less direct. Unfortunate encounters throughout childhood+adolescence with some messed up and random people who'd harass me each in different ways in public and at school, had just created a feeling as if the world was set up to shock me for some reason, and this added to my Social anxiety.
I reflect back on these days, I can't remember what exactly happened at all, and it's all in fragments, random fragments, and I know in the back of my mind that the timeline isn't right. I only remember my own fear and shock fuelled states. I just can't match the definition of PTSD (which actual survivors like soldiers, hostages and physical abuse victims get) because I never faced survival challenges, but instead I was faced with people making threats, sexual harassment, ridicule, isolation and manipulation.
So, nowadays when I see a familiar face or behaviour; it's like a door opens, then I'm thinking about a multitude of shocking moments, and no matter what I try and do to stop, I start reliving these experiences in my head, feeling the old feeling again. After this, I just begin focusing on them ridiculously and how I could've acted better so that they wouldn't have affected me so negatively, which becomes really draining, especially when i'm working and this just leads to forgetting things, there are even times when people are talking to me and their voices just muffle. I know this can't just be social anxiety or any mood disorder, and its not PTSD either, so it must be more complex.
Having Quiet BPD, however, means you 'act in'. You feel and struggle with all the same things- The fears of abandonment, mood swings, extreme anxiety, impulsiveness and black and white thinking (splitting); but instead of 'exploding', you implode.
Great points made here. I work with patients who fit criteria for either BPD or C-PTSD. And despite that some BPD patient have trauma in their history, not all do. In these cases, there is a genetic component to BPD, rather than trauma. A demarcation between these two presentations is relevant and necessary.
Mood dysregulation in C-PTSD seems to be limited to flashback episodes/psychogenic cramp attacks, limited to trauma congruent topics for the most part, while BPD mood dysregulation seems plainly random 24/7
I’m diagnosed with BPD but don’t struggle with abandonment. Instead I struggle with isolation and avoidance. For awhile I wondered if I also had avoidant personality disorder but now I think it’s C-PTSD.
Interesting and helpful. IAlmost 60 yrs old and thought I had Borderline Personality Disorder. Been nuts/ very unhappy for 50 yrs, tormented by nightmares and more. Abused child etc etc. Just had diagnosis of CPTSD and waiting for therapy.....Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. I can finally stop beating myself up and look forward to some positive changes. Hope my wicked sense of humour stays with me though.
I have been diagnosed with cptsd. When tested my doctor told me that I fall short to be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. This vid helped me to clear things up a bit. Thank you.
This is fantastic information. I have BPD and CPTSD and they are very much linked together. I just wish I could find a therapist that understood them and had the tools to help me. I am 47 years old and I am still trying to find that person. The biggest mistakes I have made so far on my road to trying to heal is not taking the time to ensure first that the therapist is qualified enough to handle someone like me, (I am also co-morbid with severe depression, anxiety, anti-social behavior, eating disorder, suicidal ideation, ugh it never ends!). For e.g. one therapist I saw used EMDR on me and because she did not finish the session the way she was supposed to, I walked out into the world for the next few days terrified of everyone and everything, it was horrible. I do hope that you will make a video sometime in the future to share with your followers a guide of how to find the right therapist for their given condition. Thank you for your videos, they are very helpful.
Daisygirl1217 where do you live? I may be able to recommend some great therapists
If you have CPTSD, please be sure any Therapist you see is TRAUMA INFORMED. Many have this special training to treat Trauma now.
Yea a video would be awesome. Im stuck as well high traits of cluster B but no rage or anger and it comes and goes like another personality almost ? I know I dont haVe D.I.D thank God but I do have Cptsd , Depression, Anxiety , Narcissitic mother or borderline. Mean alcoholic Mommy Dearest creepy likeness wealth, fame, I was the last born out of six she was to old to have me and they wouldnt abort. She told me that in therapy when i was 14 went to mexico even they wouldnt either but my father loved me so much so she said who knows , he died when i was 7 then brother suicide 63 months later ,then sisters suicide 7 years later. Then next brother 6 years later, auto asphyxiation but tried to commit suicide numerous times. My mentally retarded sister 63 and I 53 are left. Talk about the C in C.P.T.S.D. Please someone anyone who has delt with dissociation for the first 12 years of life tell me what to do or who to see. I do remember flashes of time usually from pictures. I know she sent me to bording school twice up to Canada to live with my sister 3 times. Texas to live with Aunt and Uncle. Summer Camps you name it and thank God she did. 4 years ago if you ask me i was never abused her kids were dying and she was mad and drank . Lmao. Then i found out i let a narc move in and what a Narc was on u tube. My beloved u tube. I have learned to much im totally obsessed with finding out more information about my family it's crazy to me and I've been a weirdo all my life everyday I can't even explain it everyday is a challenge I'm not suicidal but I don't fear death what I fear is sitting in a convalescent home for years like my mean old Aunt did my therapist wasn't ready for this I don't think many are its comorbid all over the place and I don't know who to go to thank you so much for listening any information greatly appreciated great video love to you all. Doctor Grande please forgive me for saying some crack about you got a video about Richard Brandon and I think I said something about you shouldn't talk about him cuz he helped me anyway I think you're fantastic actually I guess I just haven't watched enough of your videos then sorry about that please forgive me thank you so much for being so on top of things and in the now my therapist says never heard of c-ptsd
People really need to know these differences. Dr. Grande explains it perfectly and states how C- PTSD or PTSD is not a mental illness.
They absolutely are mental illnesses. Having a mental illness is not a bad thing.
It is a mental illness, due to the compounding, severe and debilitating anxiety, isolation, reliving traumatic and life changing events every day, and so on. CPTSD highly affects every part of your life. It is debilitating and removes joy and happiness out of your life, and so on. It is not a personality disorder like borderline personality disorder.
@jfsfrnd Physical stress disorders in the brain are still mental illnesses. In PTSD and CPTSD, the constant state of stress causes severe distress and dysfunction within the mind. But that doesn't mean you're "crazy" or anything, if that's what you're worried about.
@@prometheuspredator7971 Yes, but personality disorders or at least BPD also cause that.
When I was first diagnosed bpd I broke out in sobs. This was 3 years ago, now with all the information out there, it's not so hard to take in. Thank yo u fo r helping m e understand myself better. It's a hard party in my head. Ugh.
Thank you so much for this, Dr Grande. I appreciate the free access to your work.
CPTSD is specific and real
I have no trained professionals in my area to treat this, most have not heard of it
I also hope they do more research 🙏
I had never heard of CPTSD until recently and I think I have it. Since I left home, I was able to avoid situations that trigger it, until a few years ago. I had been a well-functioning, productive, and content person. Now I am a mess. From my personal experience and history, I believe CPTSD and borderline personality disorder are two separate things. I found your description of CPTSD very helpful. Thanks for the video.
Thank you for breaking down the similarities and differences. Although this information is very complex I now have a better understanding. Great video!
gollllllllyyyyyy why didn't I hear this 50 years ago! THANK you sir!
Thank you for posting on youtube! It means a lot and I hope you have success both here and in your professional career.
If CPTSD was to be classified as a sub-group, I believe, based on my own experience with these symptoms and what I've learned by researching that the anxiety disorder umbrella might be a good one for it to stand under. I was diagnosed first with anxiety and panic disorder but a couple of therapists later, I got the diagnosis of PTSD, GAD and panic disorder with a dash of depression. While I think this is fairly accurate, C-PTSD seems like a more fitting diagnosis. I experience emotional flashbacks to the times when shit was going down and all of a sudden I feel like I have regressed back to the age I was, and I feel the powerful emotions that I had at the moment and at the same time I feel the anger about having to have experienced the things I did. It's all very confusing for my mind and body so usually, I will start to have panic attack symptoms after and fight or flight kicks in hard. After all that crap has happened, I fall into depression because I'm ashamed of losing control.
So this is where the self-image thing comes in: the first thing is that like many of the people below, most of my problem with my self-image is the shitty way I've been treated by other people. My reality was twisted by these people and they treated me hatefully while saying they were my friends or that they loved me,. Everyone is supposed to love themselves but if you learn that love is hateful, you will learn to hate yourself. The second thing is that now that you've been treated this way and you've learned to be hateful towards yourself, you start having all these symptoms that bring more shame and guilt because when you're in fear mode all the time, it can lead to social faux pas. One tends to misread situations when one is fearful all the time and things that shouldn't be a big deal can become an obsession. For me, that means I apologise a lot for things that I did that I thought were a big deal and would have been with people I had met in the past but which aren't to the people I have around me now. That shit creates a lot of cognitive dissonance and it's hard to relearn social skills when you're in your twenties.
So in conclusion, I think a lot of the things I described above come from a place of fear -of being rejected, of being manipulated (again), of alienating people or of being misunderstood. When you've experienced trauma that makes you believe the world is unsafe, you learn that survival is first and living is the rest. While I think CPTSD should be its own thing and be equal to other major disorders, it would fit in well with anxiety disorders where fear is the main element and which might be the first diagnosis a person gets after experiencing trauma.
Thank you! I really appreciate the basic breakdown of the differences and the arguments surrounding C-PTSD as a diagnosis.
You're welcome!
Thanks so much for clarifying these issues in this very logical, coherent presentation. 🌼
You are quite welcome!
It took forever to get a proper diagnosis for me as I have cptsd and ADHD. For the longest time my GP thought it could be bipolar and bpd due to the symptoms of ADHD and cptsd together. Luckily my psychiatrist disagreed and treatment for cptsd/ADHD has been working.
Something I just wanted to note, (to point out I have experience as a psych nurse but am not a psychiatrist, my understanding only goes so far) with cptsd you can still have the fears of abandonment based on the type of trauma you have. It does typically present differently than with bpd but if you have cptsd
I find borderline and c-ptsd profoundly different. C-ptsd seems to be a sub group of ptsd.
Agree 100%
My own belief, as someone who was diagnosed with BPD about 7 years ago, is that BPD sticks out like a sore thumb from the other Cluster B personality disorders such as Narcissistic and Antisocial. We simply do not belong there with those people. The link between the symptoms of BPD and C-Ptsd is clear, and the fact that all the comorbid/overlapping conditions you mentioned were Affective disorders, stemmed from coping with abuse (such as eating disorders) or else completely separate from personality disorders says a lot. Borderlines have infinitely more in common with Bipolar patients then we do with Antisocial and Narcissistic people, (in fact, the only meaningful difference I seem so see is that we rapidly cycle through emotional states while with Bipolar those states last longer, please correct me if I'm wrong though, I always love being better informed about mental illness) and yet we as patients with overwhelmingly histories of childhood trauma are placed into that same category as sociopaths instead of other people who have that history of trauma (ie Bipolar) in the Affective disorder category?
Psychology is in no way infallible of course. In the 1960s black men became the face of schizophrenia simply for fighting for their rights, and were labelled as paranoid, delusional and violent as a result, even though we can look back and see that it was racist propaganda. Look at Hysteria. Look at Freud. The way we understand mental illness is evolving at ever faster rates. The amount of understanding and research that we have about BPD now versus before the 90s, the entire perception has changed on this disorder. We know that the stigma and bias that treatment teams bring to their patients has a negative correlation on patient outcomes, and it can't all just be blamed on "difficult/untreatable Borderlines". Since Marsha Linehan developed DBT, Borderline patients have an incredibly high recovery rate, what is it something like 80-90% over 5 years - outcomes that had never been expected or seen previously, and also significantly low drop out rates for treatment, and DBT has been shown to be successful in treating a number of other conditions as well. Why do Borderlines have such a high recovery rate while the same cannot be said for any of the other personality disorders? Because it isn't a PD at all, it is a disorder of emotional regulation - an Affective disorder, and a type of C-Ptsd. We do not belong in that current category, and keeping us there I feel is dehumanising, leads to more stigma and potentially worse outcomes for a group of people who want to get better and want to heal, and want to just feel in control of the overwhelming emotions we have. With understanding, patient and open, trauma-informed therapies we recover. You can't say the same for people with Narcissistic or Antisocial PD. So let's get the DSM out of the 20th Century in regard to BPD. We aren't on the "borderline between" Neurotic and Psychotic. We aren't devoid of empathy. We aren't a Cluster B Personality Disorder. My hope for Borderline is to be renamed and reclassified to better reflect the current research.
I read in Robert Moore's book "Facing the dragon" that a lot of Vietnam veterans have borderline from trauma. They became so extreme embodying their warrior archetype that they could never could let go. This led to a condition of BPD.
A wealth of knowledge as always Dr Grande..Thank you kindly.
You're welcome!
I was constantly abused by my stepmother and her whole family mentally and physically from 1 to 5 years old and then abused by my real mother physically until I’m a teenager, I was always mistreated by teachers at school as I couldn’t concentrated on my study until middle school. So I have this huge struggle to trust people and to believe there’s anything that is good in me. But some days I just feel like I’m the most brightest person and who dares to harm me I will fight. Yet most of the time I’m just so terrified that they will dislike me like many others did. I do have abandonment issues with my partner as I have this constant fear that he will leave me one day and observing for any signs that may indicate that. I know I’m not PTSD, not borderline disorder, and was so confused about my condition. Now I think I’m C-PTSD. It’s just so right.
Thank goodness for this video in this distinction. Needed this!
I think it would be very wrong to associate cptsd with bpd. Bpd is a PERSONALITY DISORDER, which means that the personality is fundamentally defined by the mechanisms of the disorder. Cptsd, on the other hand, is just a broad term for symptoms of past trauma, and doesn't exclude the possibility of a coherent and authentic personality.
Both of their symptoms & overlap & they tend to be misdiagnosed with each other
truthtoknow: Yes, you hit the nail right on the head here!
Exactly!
I've often wondered if they get "confused" or "overlapped" because it's still fairly new compared to the information surround ptsd. Cptsd is caused from an extended period of abuse caused by someone with some sort of BPD.....
THANKYOU 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
@@earthhealer1174 Thank you more lol
This is great, I’m getting it understood slowly but surely, thanks for your video
I think BPD is so overdiagnosed.
Sometimes it's just a lazy diagnostic or a provisional diagnosis and the person needs to be constantly reassessed and they will likely be diagnosed with C-PTSD w/BPD traits.
I agree and this happens to women more than men.
also, nobody's ever addressed my sense of powerlessness and social isolation. I have a harder time being with people than alone. yet I'm BPD"? well, honestly, whatever! I tried for years to find "labels" that suit me, but none did. because, low and behold, I'm an individual! shocking, I know... BEWARE, people, of the field of psychology.. while you put your life on the line, literally, so that you wait to see your therapist for one whole hour. while they make their living off OF YOU. Months, and Years and years and Years later. you too, like me, might be left wondering: wheres my education? where's my house? where's my children that I can't have now? where's my natural supports? career? WHERE?
Dana B what is your point?
I think Dana B made their point very well
That "argument" against psychology as a field falls apart in a country with socialised healthcare. Stop discouraging people from seeking help because *your* experience of *your* care system was shit.
I think she just reaching out..
Dana learn to meditate. I'm hearing you. Here's a hug 🥰
I have CPTSD , whilst I was a teenager I was completely powerless and may of seemed to appear to be BPD. Once I hit my 20's, I took matters into my own hands and as best as I could with what little at hand I was available I change my life. That's when the CPTSD was what I had to contend with. I have been around people with BPD and there is a big difference. I have a honesty and accountability which I didn't see in the people with BPD. CPTSD has a lot to do with the external factors imposing on a healthy person ( or not) , the entrapment of the situation is what causes the damage. People / children are resilient however only to a certain point. Think of it like a village which is under attack. I have a core sense of self with an awareness of what was lost and the humiliation of how I am different from those who had the same potential as I and had that potential developed due to a relatively healthy and resourceful life.
People with bpd can absolutely have honesty and accountability too.
Interesting. I'd argue that bpd is a more extreme version of cptsd. A level 1 vs a level 5. In the UK, they don't call it bpd. They call it emotional dysregulation disorder, which is cptsd. Self harm, depression, and suicide is a natural consequence of serotonin and dopamine deficiencies and dysregulation. It makes sense that if you have realllllllllly bad dysregulation, it will lead to extreme behavior.
I'm finding it interesting that BPD is wrapped up with invalidation, and these people who claim that BPD doesn't exist because it's actually cptsd are completely invalidating our whole mental health experience. Thanks for that! (not)
Agree totally! I'll send them my mother and I guarantee...they'll have CPTSD in a month.
S arah, please look at my recent comment and tell me what you think.
I don’t think it’s particularly invalidating, it’s basically saying BPD and CPTSD are the same thing.
They should move in with my ex husband and see how they're coping after 6 years of being forced at the edge of a weapon. Nuff details but trust me they would come back with CPTSD
@@danceswithcoyotes8273 as far as symptoms go cptsd doesnt require and is not characterized by fear of abandonment, unstable sense of self, unstable relationships, impulsivity, or inappropriate intense anger. In a study only 7.8% of cptsd patients met the criteria of bpd but 44.6% of people with bpd met cptsd criteria. So there is a lot of overlap but a lot of difference. Im sorry you dont deserve to be stigmatized by your therapist. That isnt real help.
'Ideological Trauma ' You mentioned it; I looked it up and WHAM!! That explains something I had been wondering about for more than 30 years without knowing what it was. Thank you Dr.
I think he actually said 'etiological'. He means that trauma is a cause of both conditions.
I believe these are the same disorders but from the differing school of thought. For instance, a patient being triggered may be interpreted by a psychoanalyst as "splitting" but that same reaction is interpreted by a trauma-informed professional as an "emotional flashback." Judith Herman was quite clear by her diagnosis of CPTSD - it was intended to replace BPD. She literally observed BPD patients to create that diagnosis. Now, some of those with CPTSD will present worse than others due to the type of trauma, and duration.
I have lived with C-PSTD for 20 years. I met a girlfriend diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder while both inpatients in private Hospital.
Prior to C-PSTD symptoms becoming insurmountable, particularly in later life- I am now 40 years old- I spent 8 years of my life as a high achieving social work student.
Each condition- is distinct and disparate. There is no relationship between symptoms I experience in lived experience- and the symptoms my 26 year old girlfriend diagnosed with Borderline personality.
12 months of spending time with her has resulted in learning further about the primary symptoms of her disorder. Inadvertently, she has provided me with greater insight and clarity surrounding my own experiences of living with C-PSTD.
For example- I have never self harmed. Her anxiety is rooted in negative evaluations by others. My anxiety is a chronic and ceaseless sense of being unsafe or subject to harm. Her moods swing. I move from crippling depression- to days where I am "functional". I have a history of repeated and severe childhood trauma. She does not.
The idea that C-PSTD is in anyway associated with Borderline personality Disorder- from someone who lives this condition 'moment by moment' appears absurd and nonsensical. Likewise- it is invalidating and more than a little frustrating to hear any expert- theorising within peer reviewed litriture that such a diagnosis is not required or should merely be designated as a sub-type of BPD. This amounts too Intelligence in service of ignorance.
C-PTSD- is the only diagnosis that mirrors my lived experience with disturbing accuracy. Years of journaling- pre-empt and at times read akin too "current research findings" within C-PSTD to such a degree as to be at times uncanny.
C-PTSD- is completely and utterly debilitating. I would not wish it upon anyone. C-PSTD will freeze a person in time. The developmental impacts collapse of meaning, flashbacks, long term dissociative states, self abandonment, a set point founded upon a terrifying perception of the world- are aspects of C-PSTD cannot be overstated.
C-PTSD condition that is being lived out, experienced and endured by countless millions.
My treatment- largely self directed through sheer force of will- and largely a educational awareness of the role of immense power inequality between patient and carer - has resulted in a focus upon use of the original MAIO inhibitors from four decades ago- in direct opposition to the absurd Psychiatrists who attempt- blindly adhering to status quo and pharmaceutical patents- to place me onto anti-psychotic medications which served to further exasperate symptoms.
Privileging this- for your own clarity. There is no substitute for lived experience- when coupled with moderate education.
@Sweet Pea I don't understand what you mean.
I do agree that there are significant differences between cptsd and bpd, but it can be confusing because there is so much overlap and the 2 are often comorbid. Also please understand that bpd is just as debilitating as cptsd is.
Complex information I need more than this video for an explanation but it is a good start.
When he states that some individuals with the diagnosis of BPD have no trauma history. Or any memory of trauma. Early childhood trauma does not consist of a memory of the event but the body remembers the trauma through sensations; sounds, anxiety, touch, smell. I believe that we should have a diagnosis for complex ptsd. Not having a diagnosis in the dsm means we do not acknowledge it exists. Therefore we cannot effectively treat something that does not exist, or the wrong diagnosis is made and the patient is not getting the right treatment. Secondly insurance does not reimburse the provider for treatment if a diagnosis does not exist. Which leads a gap in the number of professionals who are trained in treating patients with trauma. Research on complex trauma is also limited because there is no funding for research if this disorder does not exist in the DSM. People who have chronic ongoing early childhood trauma do not always meet the criteria for ptsd. Because of the criteria of a traumatic event. A traumatic event is classified as an assault, war, abuse physical, or emotional. But what about a parent with a mental illness, growing up in a dysfunctional home, where the primary caregiver is still in their own trauma and not being able to meet the emotional needs of their children when the parents needs were never met, inter generational trauma. What about early life adversities, having medical problems as a child, learning disabilities, language delays, speech difficulties, surgery, emotional neglect by parents, being bullied by other kids in school, having dcf remove child from home and place child in the system, shelters, group homes with little to no support for child. Parents who are toxic with narcissistic traits which are subtle and go unseen to other adults. Living in poverty, where you’re environment is not safe. But trauma has to be concrete and fit into a nice category/ in a box. This is the problem with the dsm not everything fits into these nice boxes. Not all trauma have a memory in the brain but have a physical memory in the body. Not everyone who has trauma is able to verbalize what they have been through or even see it as a trauma. Some traumas are more subtle and are invisible to others except with household members. Especially with covert narcissist or who have these narcissistic traits. On the outside they appear loving, and wanting to help but no one sees how they act within the family system and if the child acts out or is verbally abusive then the child is seen as the problem rather then what was the cause of the behavior. Being invalidated by others and told your reality is inaccurate and distorted.
I think it's distinct; of course, I'm biased because I have CPSTD. I don't relate to the descriptions I've read about borderline personality disorder. (E.g., "emotional instability - the psychological term for this is affective dysregulation; disturbed patterns of thinking or perception - cognitive distortions or perceptual distortions; impulsive behaviour; intense but unstable relationships with others.") As a teen and young adult I was emotionally labile when it came to my self worth (and my self worth alone and that might affect my mood), which were related to disturbed patterns of thinking inculcated by my abuser. I was also living with my abuser and mentally unhealthy enough as a result to become involved with someone very similar to my abuser. That abusive relationship, where the other person blamed me and I didn't buy it (because people who rage love to make that other people's problems), I sought help. With one year of therapy, I was able to undo stinking thinking about myself (I'd never turned that outward toward others) and my self worth stopped bouncing all over the place. With that stable, I was able to regulate my emotions day in and day out--my moods were stable--, and I also learned how not to disassociate in situations that had caused that in the past (usually threats to my sense of self).
STILL, despite a stable sense of self, and this is the important part about CPTSD, I'd get triggered with emotional flashbacks. However, I knew they were not rooted in the present, I practiced radical acceptance and was open to what my body and psyche were trying to tell me about the trauma of my past and why I might be triggered in the present. I could work as a professional in the middle of a flashback.
You can have CPSTD and mostly heal (feel like you've completely healed), and yet still get severely triggered and thrown back into physical and feeling symptoms that don't include poor self esteem, guilt, decreased self worth. (For example, I've not had trust issues and yet a severe trigger two years ago triggered incredible distrust over a long period, forcing me back into counseling so I could get to the bottom of the trauma from childhood that still needed attention.) No one, not even someone or events from my past can make me feel unworthy now; I have a stable sense of self. But like a commenter below, my sympathetic nervous system is on. I have trouble sleeping (in part because some of the abuse happened in the night), and I must avoid scary and suspenseful movies, meditate, and take care because CPTSD is hard on the body.
Lastly, I'm not in charge when I might be severely triggered (triggers that reverberate for months and months and even years), which has only happened twice in my life. (With less severe triggers along the way and virtually no triggers between the 1st and 2nd severe trigger, which were over a decade apart. I've found that severe triggers can be quite healing if I get help to grieve and release the trauma.) Complete healing may be outside of my grasp. I can't know because I don't know where the trauma is stored... I don't know what might be unfinished business because the trauma started so early in life. Trauma lives in the body and the brain. When not triggered severely, I regulate myself just fine. (And I begin to regulate myself again after a time following a severe trigger even when I know it is still impacting me and I have significant work to do.) Even when triggered I almost always regulate my conduct just fine unless it's severe--the people around me typically don't pick up on the fact that I'm triggered.
I worked with a therapist for three years before I recently discovered CPTSD and BPD - on my own - on RUclips. I always wondered how much my childhood had affected my life and I came across videos of people describing exactly what I was going through! I was so shocked that I immediately wrote my therapist an angry email and asked her WHY didn't she ever tell me that something like this existed?? She seemed a tad upset about it and explained that she wasn't that type of therapist although she treats eating disorders which I believe are trauma-related? Anyway, she did set out to find me a therapist who specialized in CPTSD and I believe we found one. I had one session with this new therapist so far and I cannot even tell you how incredible it was to have someone talk to me knowing that I had been through so much and understands why I have become the way I am. I am 68 years old and my life has been hell. I'm currently divorcing my third husband so this new therapist couldn't have come at a better time. Thank you Dr. Grande for giving your views on the comparisons of CPTSD and BPD, it's scary stuff but it feels incredible to finally have a name put to my misery.
Thank you for that clear distinction. Very helpful.
Effective/affordable treatment not available to most folks anyway.
I cannot afford any consultations as it means eating or not eating. I have listened to many teaching/discussions of these matters. When it comes to making decisions on what I think and do I know I cannot trust my own impulse on what to do so I follow Gods law and try to conduct myself accordingly. That with prayer is my best guideline. God loves me the psychologist is neutral as he is doing his job
All the abuse happened and life just snowballed away. Nearing 50 years old and it feels like a 100.
I have C-PTSD and am a former mental health professional. I fought the diagnosis of BPD because it had such a negative contation, plus I never had enough of the criteria at any one time to have the diagnosis of BPD. Thus, for many years I only had the diagnosis of bipolar- until I read about C-PTSD in the ICD. I should have had different treatment, and worked through things by myself. I haven't been on anything for mood disorder since I found that Clonidine works better, by accident when given it for my blood pressure. Since memories surfaced I do get triggered and that's what has caused me the most difficulty functioning. I have every bit as much difficulty finding and keeping housing as any military vet because of triggering. At 66 years of age, I have numerous chronic medical issues and have spent much of my time homeless. I also founded SEASCAT, a Supportive Environment for Adult Survivors of Child Abuse & Trauma with the mission of spreading the word about the difficulties of those who survive abusive childhoods. Thank you for speaking with fair objectivity. There is overlap, but not all with C-PTSD are BPD.
Thank you for the comment about clonidine. I take it for blood pressure and have noticed it helps my adjustment disorder and insomnia, stemming from serious physical illness. I'm 68, and also a former mental health professional. I congratulate you for having turned your lemons into lemonade by helping others. You go girl!
Thank you so much for talking about CPTSD.
You are quite welcome!
Cptsd= risk avoidance, isolation, social paranoia, "walled off," PTSD symptoms (rigid muscles, nightmares, depression, fight or flight anxiety, hyper alert, agorophobia, sleep disturbances) numb, problems expressing or realizing feelings, anger/rage bc of feelings of powerlessness, victimization.
Whereas BPD = "I don't know who I am," "get away/don't leave me," inability to be alone, impulsive decisions/risk taking, attention seeking, mirroring behaviors "I am you," inappropriately intense feelings, "fast friends," bad interpersonal boundaries, self harm or threats, manipulative. Usually involves narcissistic or neglectful family unit.
I really enjoy watching your videos Dr Grande, i think they are really informative, even though i have to rewatch them a few times for the facts to sink in. I just thought i'd give you some feedback, please don't take offense, i just found that the additional links at the end of the video a bit distracting during the videos conclusion, maybe it would be better if they popped up after the conclusion when you come to near close with the line 'if you find'. This way i get to enjoy hearing your final summary. I do like your videos though and i appreciate the well structured analytical insights you offer into mental health.
I'mj having a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that suicidal tendancies are not a symptom on PTSD. I thought PTSD raised the risk of Suicide significantly? The very Nature of PTSD would make Suicidal tendancies to be a symptom of that disorder as wellI thought.
I would disagree..I have been diagnosed with PTSD and only became suicidal once when the very trauma I had experienced repeated itself..once that re-truama was taken away I have not ever been suicidal again. As a clinician I have worked with clients with PTSD inclduing soldiers from war experieicning severe trauma with no suicidal ideation or tendencies or minimal incidences of sucidial tendencies. Many people with PTSD can utilize protective factors..wanting to be there for family..wanting to reach personal goals..religion..which minimizes sucidial tendencies. Other clients do have high suicidal tendencies..its all very individualized.
@jfsfrnd Well of course not, but they do think about suicide and commit suicide more than the general population, no?
Sounds to me like I have both.And the difficulties are definitely feeding off each other even at 59 years old.
CPTSD can alter the genetics and make the brain different. Think of the impact of communal trauma due to war and genocide and no wonder people might be affected and changed. BPD and CPTSD are similar. A primary difference is avoidance and withdrawal due to CPTSD as opposed to abandonment fears in BPD. Emotional dysregulation occurs due to multiple triggers in CPTSD whereas rejection and abandonment fears are the primary cause of emotional dysregulation in BPD. BPD has a genetic component. CPTSD largely arises due to repeated trauma and struggling to survive and feel safe in an abusive, hostile, exploitative and dangerous environment. Think being easily aroused and living with an internal war zone in the brain due to a dread of abandonment versus being traumatised by an external warzone and craving personal safety more than connection..
Again Dr Grande, you are very succinct and articulate in your presentation.
Very interesting! I'd never heard of this before but had asked a mental health Dr if I might have ptsd...she said No without knowing *any* of my history. This makes a lot of sense for me, considering the unusual and complex abuse/treatment I experienced from a variety of people.
I thought this video helped me to understand C-PTSD much better than the last video. It was interesting to learn about the theories on C-PTSD and BPD. After considering the theories, I feel that C-PTSD should be distinct from BPD. It was also helpful to learn that BPD has significant genetic components for developing the disorder. However, I can see how BPD and C-PTSD criterion overlap, such as having a history of childhood trauma or complex trauma.
I was first diagnosed Bipolar Disorder, then PTSD was added, then Boarder line personality disorder. During a therapy session, I was diagnosed with complex PTSD. When it was explained to me what Complex PTSD was it made perfect sense because I lived through many tramatic events during childhood and adult. I experience symptoms of all three so it's a bit confusing. I'm permanently disabled as a result of all 3 disorders. I still to this day do not understand all of it. I just feel really broken. I've been in therapy for years. Finally I got the right therapy and things started to change. Isolation and bordom we're triggers. Trusting was an issue, anger almost destroyed me. Loud noises, to many people around me, nonsense talking drives me crazy, procrastination, loss of interest, lack of motivation, hating self, fear, so many symptoms for years. I would like it all explained to me in laymen's terms. I want to clearly understand what is and had going on with me. I've dealt with this since I was 28 years old, I'm 63 years old now. And I'm just starting to make progress.
Thank you Dr Grande 💕 what if one has Asperger's and CPTSD as opposed to Bpd?
I agree with you Dr.Grande.
They need their own distinct classifications. The same as Covert/Vulnerable Narcissist need their own classification and subtypes. Ex: Covert/Malignant etc....
I think eventually all these disorders will fall under the umbrella of cptsd. That goes for BPD, Anxiety, depression, bipolar, ocd, narcisstic and all addictions. I think all is caused by trauma and trauma is generational. Trauma rearranges the brain and i dont understand why it takes professionals so long to understand this. Why is CPTSD still not in the dsm guide. I live in NYC and the twelve step programs are packed everynight with lonely people struggling with fear and abandonment that were traumatized in alcoholic or dysfuntional homes. Abandonment is absolutely a sign of cptsd it is the main issue. In actuality these disorders stem from trauma wounds usually very early in life.
As a trauma therapist, I don't see CPTSD as a subtype of BPD. I question the symptoms of BPD even being a personality disorder. I see it as a dissociative response. The other personality disorders in Cluster B are likely forms of attachment disorder. PTSD should be recategorized as PTSR, post-traumatic stress response. It's largely an adaptive response to extreme stress, which can persist after it's needed. CPTSR should be included in the next DSM. That way, society can stop stigmatizing and blaming survivors of trauma for their symptoms for a change. The fact that 10 % of people diagnosed with BPD don't have a clear trauma history makes sense if you consider attachment wounds. They are seldom identified outside of therapy. Doesn't mean they aren't there. Additionally, traumatic events are often not remembered due to happening during the pre-verbal period of development or having been dissociated out of conscious memory.
I do believe BPD exists but is extremely rare. Typically BPD is misdiagnosed for domestic violence victims when their abuser goes to the sessions and the counselor fails to recognize the abuse. Some C-PTSD triggers can look like BPD symptoms. Abuse survivors might be triggered by invalidation. Rape survivors, and those who experienced traumatic death of loved ones, may be triggered by abandonment, but that still doesn't mean they have BPD. pwBPD have more identity disturbance, like he said in the video, they are on the border, whereas pwC-PTSD may behave similarly, but the cause is triggers, flooding, false guilt. Anyone who has been diagnosed with BPD, in my opinion, should see someone who specializes in C-PTSD for a second opinion.
Thank you for this. I am diagnosed with both.
Thank you doctor for all Your effort to inform us and educate us. Greetings from Serbia🕊️🌞☺️
Whenever I get in a relationship and my bpd starts to show all my CPTSD symptoms show back up or get worse like agoraphobia, panic attacks, flash backs, nightmares, insomnia, self mutilation, rage and even short bouts of psychosis where I honestly believe someone wants to kill me or have me kill myself and I'll actually believe that for a period. Ugh I wish they would go away
c-ptsd is quite a wide group. I would theorise that c-ptsd should replace a lot of things, though perhaps not under narrow criteria. I think the personality disorders will be subgroups of C-PTSD, its just they are usually C-PTSD PLUS SOMETHING ELSE such as developmental factors and hereditary factors. A striking difference will be the age the trauma has taken place. And that given trauma occurs as a cause in many with personality disorders, this trauma will continue and thus produce a later stage trauma on top of the personality disorder, i.e. c-ptsd.
Nonetheless since the misdiagnosis of BPD is so common, we might agree that the CURRENT population has a lot of people with c-ptsd who are given an erroneous label of BPD. The other conclusion is that since BPD is so varied it should be split into those with c-ptsd subgroup and standard BPD group, without necessarily being a wrong diagnosis, just that BPD is not specific enough of a concept in the first place and needs dividing... the fact that it can't cover the totality of BPD doesn't mean its not a consideration to replace a significant subset, and that suggests that something other than 'borderline' is needed- its just you happen to be using that as the benchmark, whilst others may use c-ptsd as the benchmark. In luck, the next ICD won't include Borderline, it WILL include C-PTSD, so go figure.
I really like your videos very objective and independent based.
I agree on the argument of it being distinct
Thank you!
I was recently 'diagnosed' by a counselor as cptsd with 'severe depression'. I need to understand this, thanks.
What if BPD is actually subtype of C-PTSD, and so are many other personality disorders? The disorder that results is perhaps related to the type(s) of abuse, and the inherent personality of the victim.
For example perhaps BPD is a form of C-PTSD caused by early childhood abandonment plus specific personality traits.
And perhaps NPD is formed in response to narcissistic abuse combined with certain personality traits, or maybe combined with other types of abuse.
Attachment style + personality + type of abuse = resulting symptoms
Dr Grande is *just* detached enough for me to trust him! Objectively he's doing a great job describing the differences... But my subjective ass cannot decide between the two for myself, or maybe I don't have to choose hmmn... Yep. That's why I like him 🤘
Thank you for this very indepth video. I believe they're both very different diagnoses, and perhaps cptsd is a consequence of boarderline/narccisstic parenting.
Yes but so is bpd.
Dr Grande, I'd love to know and read more about the percentage of BPD coming from genetics? Where did you get that information?