Benjamin Butterworth: Woke Culture HAS NOT Gone Too Far - 8/8 | Oxford Union
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- Опубликовано: 11 янв 2023
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Initially used as a term to empower awareness of systemic inequalities in society, wokeism is now a deeply divisive term. The media's perpetuation of woke culture has made this term a buzzword. For some, being woke is part of the antidote of acknowledging the instruments of oppression. For others, it is a dangerously absolutist ideology, a sort of reverse McCarthyism, corroding liberal society and encouraging self-imposed victimhood. Is the 'war on woke' a legitimate phenomenon, or a reactionary distraction from the real problems being 'woke' addresses?
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"The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous." - George Orwell
George Orwell was a democratic socialist, so I am assuming you are supporting "woke culture." By the way, George Orwell had a hard time finding publishers that would publish left-leaning views. So discrimination in the publishing industry and the general attitude that people do not want to work with people who have very different views from their own is nothing new at all. Conservatives have a long history of being some of the worst abusers of cancel culture. They are literally trying to cancel cancel culture. They are absurdly stupid.
@@philosonic champion gaslighter. Congratulations. Now hush, dunce.
@@alementary4065 Oh please, do not pretend you are not a philistine by quoting Orwell.
@@philosonic Oh, please (notice the correct punctuation), do not pretend you are wise because you dismiss Orwell. While Orwell nominally considered himself a socialist, it had a far different meaning for him that what is commonly associated to the bellends of today, and he absolutely loathed authoritarianism, which seems to be the mantra you subscribe to.
@@alementary4065 How have I dismissed Orwell? You address nearly nothing I have said except a petty grammar remark. Orwell fought in the Spanish Civil war alongside communists and socialists against Franco fascism. He was very much a social justice warrior. Just read his Burmese Days, Road to Wignan Pier, and Homage to Catalonia. You do not know any of this stuff because of right-wing propaganda.
"You can be woke and funny"... I'm still waiting for an example.
This line itself is a joke or I guess it's the only funny joke a woke person can make.
I think he meant funny looking.
It's been 7 days now, still no funny joke in sight.
Stewart Lee
And you are the nobility on whose tune the world revolves and should tweak their humor for?
Anyone who didn't see him on Piers Morgan's show needs to watch those episodes. He claimed to be against cancel culture, but tried to get Piers fired from his job and removed from social media. He also told the trans guests what they must think about trans issues. This is the face of the woke scumbaggery.
Telling minorities what they should think (and chastising them if they don't) is the thing that made me realize woke culture is messed up. Made it really clear that they don't truly care about the minorities; they care about people fitting into their narrative and supporting that narrative. As soon as you stop supporting the narrative, your victim status counts for nothing.
I detest him every time I see him, on every subject. I find him twisted, lacks empathy , manipulative, can be very condescending and cruel. The way he compared Constantine to Vladimir Putin, that's a low blow, and he does that constantly . He really embodies what's going too far with "woke" , psychopaths love it.
Piers Morgan and him tandem is always funny. Piers has a soft spot for him even if they have opposing views
@@stanbalo I think you're right.
As Piers said, “The problem with the woke brigade is they’re never even remotely tolerant themselves”
"Being woke is being polite". Politeness should not be mandated by laws, and people should not have their lives destroyed for being "impolite" i.e. not woke.
"she deserved it" hardly polite to someone losing their livelihood is it? you see how they lie about how nice they are lol
The irony being that the woke are virtually defined by how impolite they are. They're awful people, who justify their impoliteness under the guise of social justice. Even "social justice" itself has come to mean "I get to be an @$$hole to you because of your demographic categories."
It doesn't look very polite when 6'4" mentally ill men with blue hair are trying to beat up women for discussing women's rights.
Well said! Just what I was thinking.
There is nothing wholeheartedly polite about wokeness as it is an ideology. It's like calling being Christian being polite. Yes if you follow that ideology most of your actions may be polite, however you will also accept atheists being condemned to hell for infinity, despite choosing to be atheist over Christian being the more logical choice in the modern world.
This man is out here proving James Lindsay's point.
It can never go too far because it cannot be allowed to stop, like Soviet citizens required to show an unyielding loyalty to the party.
He was so wrong about jk Rowling. Harry Potter wouldn't have been published today if she was starting out and expressed these views but now she is too rich to cancel
Perpetual revolution.
@@stretfordender11 That's the point, these people will never admit cancel culture exists until you're destitute and living in a skip, and even then they'll likely pivot and describe it as 'consequence culture'.
you better wear that rainbow lanyard, like a yoke around your neck, a symbol of submission. and you'll do it, or its prison. welcome to today, the backlash? extinguished not by resistance.. but by economic collapse and a coming war. Me? I say, bring it on.
Indeed. To be fair Progressivists almost always face an uphill battle. They must always keep being aggressive. Without this aggression and unearned confidence that "everything will be okay if you listen to us. We are absolutely sure of success" attitude, society has a tendency to regress back to the familiar.
Problems with this speech:
He is describing traditional progressivism while supposedly defending "wokism". They are VERY different.
Disparaging opponents of "wokism" is not defending "wokism".
Claiming JK Rowling hasn't been the victim of the harassment & damage to her professional legacy (poorly) referred to as "cancel culture" because she hasn't 'disappeared' is utterly disingenuous and remarkably uncaring.
Out of the four speakers, Butterworth was the only one who actually supports "wokism", and was the only one who didn't actually know what it is.
Makes you wonder what counts as "disappearing" in his eyes. Would she need to die, or merely never be allowed to have a public voice again?
Use of semantics and sophistry to defend their indefensible, and often hypocritical, positions is a mark of the far left and 'woke'.
It's why the 'free speech is not free from consequences' phrase is used. It allows them to justify cancelling and intimidation. When the only recourse to bad free speech is good free speech. Their claim is redundant but used to justify.
The likes of Owen Jones loves to distingenuous use that phrase and also claim he's not cancelling but keeping people to account when he calls on his 1 million Twitter followers to protest to Oxford uni to get an HR man fired for liking a tweet he unilaterally decided was 'far right', which happened.
Of course, when he says 'consequences' he doesn't mean better speech he means harassment and bullying of those he disagreed with which is borderline, if not literal harassment. Which is not free speech but cancel culture.
As others have said, freedom of speech is the right to cover my ears so I don't have to hear what I don't want to hear. Cancel culture is covering your mouth so nobody can hear things I don't want you to hear.
He knows what it is, it's just that it benefits him and his allies to keep promoting it. We have to stop giving these people the benefit of intellectual honesty.
I am not sure how much history you know, but canceling people has been a thing in society since society began. It is natural social behavior to reject people who have ideas you find problematic. Publishers firing writers they disagree with has happened since publishing became a thing. This is nothing new, and writers have either self-published or found another publisher who likes their work. Many publishers have a brand image they want to maintain and they do not want to associate with writers who might hurt it. It is a perfectly sound business decision to "cancel" a writer they find problematic for their business.
@@philosonic If you are arguing from the same point as the speaker then there is no point in arguing with you because ultimately you are not arguing from the same core values as me. It would be pointless mental masturbation on both our parts.
This guy is ridiculous
I mean, his name is Benjamin Butterworth.
@@dannyarcher6370yes, Benjamin Butterworth is ridiculous.
I would really love to talk to him. He talks about cancel culture like it exists only with elitists but it doesn't. I know from experience and it's devastating on your life.
The funny thing is, he tried to get Piers Morgan fired from his job and canceled from social media, just a few days after telling Piers that he was against cancel culture. Of course, it backfired because it gave Piers a boost in ratings. Occassionally I agree with Piers, but generally I'm not a fan. I remember this whole thing because Benny was telling the trans guest what they had to think about trans issues.
I suspect he does know of cases of people who've been victims of cancel culture who don't have the fame and fortunes of JK Rowling, but chooses to ignore them.
Benji also appears as the Token Wokie for GB News regularly, so I'm sure he's been told of the many cases of every day people having their livelihoods hit for expressing 'wrong think'. The way he dismissed Toby Young bringing up the Gillian Philip case says everything.
Hey Anna, Benny Butterbean will not accept any truth until he is cancelled himself. He’s a smug git.
That is because the whole idea about cancel culture is to utterly destroy those who oppose their ideals or question their methods. It is a very tyrannical type of movement that they try and justify by being "Progressive".
When you start giving hormones and slicing of the breasts from children, you can pretty much surmise that things might have gone a bit too far. When you cancel comedians for cracking jokes, cancel educators for teaching science, when you have the erasure of gendered language such has women (now birthing person), breastfeeding (now chestfeeding), maybe things might have gone a bit too far. When we are asked to forgo truths that might shatter certain delusions for the sake of faux compassion, things have gone too far.
Perfectly said!!! Thank you!!
And since you wrote this the terms "male" and "female" have come under attack...
Good luck with your electrics and plumbing if these 2 terms get cancelled
TRANS RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS!
@@Rachel_M_
😅 👍 Good one !
France
If you can provide substantive examples of legitimate medical practitioners "slicing the breasts from children", I'll buy you a beer and/or a coffee.
That J K Rowling argument is so awful, words can barely describe how misplaced it is
Care to say more? From your comment, I have no idea what you think about the argument. Are you implying that Benjamin Butterworth both represented the issue of the events surrounding the comments of the comments made by J.K. Rowling arightly?
@@samdg1234 So Butterworth is setting up a strawman, or at least misrepresenting Rowling's situation and the timeline surrounding the events. Long story short, Rowling is only 'not cancelled' because she is a multi-millionaire who has kept the Harry Potter franchise close to her, as it is her own IP. Now if you've been following Rowling since she came out as a TERF (as the kids call it), she has been constantly hounded for having anything to do with Harry Potter to the point where thousands of Harry Potter fans honestly wish they could confiscate the franchise from her. Butterworth underestimates the fact that Rowling is extremely rich, which gives her leverage to speak her mind. People shouldn't need leverage to be able to speak their mind without being socially ostracised. It just isn't in good character.
"People say JK Rowling is canceled, but she's still rich and successful."
"Yes, because you failed. What would it look like if you hadn't? If you can have all the consequences metered out to her without resistance, what would what look like? That's woke culture."
They think the fact they failed to ruin her life proves that they weren't trying to.
@@Nisfornarwhal1990 But to use a fundamental understanding of what cancelled means, whereby a person's oeuvre is expunged, and they cannot make a living due to certain views, I struggle to see how J.K Rowling has truly been cancelled. Her platform has not been revoked. Though her original fan base has turned on her, she is still profiting and inextricably attached to that work. I just struggle to see how she has been hindered at all. It is the same premise with Piers Morgan. He has made a career out of the fact he has been cancelled. Since being 'cancelled' he has released a book, is the host of his own show and does regular speaking events. He is earning more now then he was in previous position. I don't think a person is ever truly cancelled if they are continuing to profit from the fact that they've been cancelled.
@@laurent4122
You > *"I struggle to see how J.K Rowling has truly been cancelled."*
I think that virtually everyone would agree with you if by canceled the word is required to mean that the canceling was effective.
But the actual ability of sensible addressing, "This House Believes Woke Culture Has Gone Too Far" depends 100% on a univocal definition of the term. If each side of the debate defines Woke Culture differently the exercise is doomed from the outset.
So to the topic of canceled. As Butterworth suggests, the so-called canceling has been substantially ineffective in the very least, at diminishing the income-generating ability of Rowling. But that it seems to me is totally beside the point. Rowling according to the metric Butterworth wants to employ, due to her business acumen and/or luck seems to be cancel-proof.
But, is it imaginable, however, that Rowling might be either un-invited or even dis-invited to address audiences that she'd have been gladly welcomed to speak to if she hadn't (according to Wikipedia) stated, "In another controversial tweet in June 2020, Rowling mocked an article for using the phrase "people who menstruate", and tweeted that women's rights and "lived reality" would be "erased" if "sex isn't real"
If it were in the power of "Woke Culture" to have succeeded in canceling Rowling with the level of success they've had in their most effective instances, they'd have gladly beheld the spectacle. That Rowling was not susceptible to such canceling was in no way due to the charity, leniency, or forgiving nature of the Woke Culture.
I'd just as soon have had Butterworth's (or any other on that side of the house) respond to Rowling's comment from Wikipedia.
That is kind of the point. Civil discussion (at least on some topics) appears anathema to Woke Culture.
I'd gladly hear arguments against Rowling's statement and view. *How dare she* , doesn't amount to an argument.
The way Benji dismissed the Gillian Philip case is sickening. Someone who lost their husband a week after losing their own job and 'conservative and bigoted opinions' trump that, and it's accountability?
I suspect deep down he knows he's in the wrong, but his narcassistic ego won't bring himself to admit it.
He also makes a living from it. 💰💰💰
That is one isolated example. sometimes people are unlucky, doesn't prove anything
The answer to Toby Young at 8:30 was the key point in this debate. And summarizes the situation as a whole.
‘Cancel culture doesn’t exist’
‘Yes it does, this woman lost her job for a tweet’
‘Well she deserved it’
It was indeed a shallow and shameful answer.
@@yessir8089 I really don’t understand this argument. Again freedom of speech does not = freedom from other people reacting to your speech. if you work for a company and started tweeting about how awful that company is, would you be surprised if you lost your job? Companies tend to want to project a certain brand/image to the world. So it’s not surprising that if you publicly express a view that the company views as damaging to this public image (whether that be publicly bashing the company or projecting what the majority of their customers would deem to be hateful or offensive views/opinions and therefore turn them off buying from the company), you might loose your job. The company is well within its rights to fire people for saying things it doesn’t like.. like if you go up to your boss and hurl a load of abusive language their way, does the boss have to be forced to keep you on board or does he have the right to fire you?
That really demonstrated how dishonest the woke are.
Toby's argument is drawing a parallel between the gay rights movement and now. But the woke lot call same sex attracted people "sexual racists". Karen White, a man, was allowed into a women's prison where he raped an inmate. So are we meant to understand these facts as progress? Is it not reasonable to conclude that these may be examples of "wokeness going too far"?
@@roro-mm7cc ok. Ill explain it like this. Freedom of speech but no Freedom from consequences? Therefore, George floyd deserved to die. After all he was a career criminal and suffered the consequences of that action right? You ate going to protect that no one deserves to die in police custody. And I agree. Thats precisely the point. The consequences are disproportionate to the offence. Woke culture has made actions what used to result in mild social consequences e.g. freinds falling out ect now result in life destroying consequences. You suffer disproportionately for the perceived or real wrong you did
Cherry-picking history regarding historically oppressed citizens and ignoring what identity politics IS historically is shameful. His ignorance, or purposeful misdirection is the true danger society faces.
Took him less than 2 minutes to begin the misdirection. Referring to children on puberty blockers as "life saving care" and rapist males claiming their pronouns are "she/her/they" in court as "asking to be called by pronouns.
That's the fun of the academic debate game. You may end up in the team arguing for an issue, that you personally oppose - to give a coherent eloquent series of arguments can become hard, when unprepared. No reason to call the speaker ignorant
@@evgenytroshkin3455 I see no evidence Butterworth landed on the team opposing his already published beliefs. He is either ignorant of the danger of identity politics, or is purposefully misdirecting. That doesn't mean he is plainly an ignorant person.
@@evgenytroshkin3455 No your wrong ,he believes what he's saying.Ive seen him in the media pushing his woke narratives .
@@evgenytroshkin3455 Sorry mate you should look at his Piers Morgan interviews - he believes what he's saying. The way Oxford debates are structured I highly doubt they'll let outside guests come in and force them to argue a position they don't believe anyway
He knows he's being disingenuous and lying.
Exactly
future labour leader here
That's all they have...
@@fragfmgill or the conservative at the rate of things are going...
Start the speech positioning yourself as a victim class. Then go on to talk about how you want power. On to the next mystery scooby.
He kinda give the game away when he tried to include yuppies in the list of victim classes.
Around minute 2:00, it goes too far when the law is changed to dictate how language is used
right
Spot on
Philip-not the point he made though..
@@joshboston2323 he therefore missed the crucial point
How do they not know where there own belief system comes from? All they have to do is listen to Lindsay one time.... James just resites there textbooks back to them and they saw it's a racist strawman. The arrogance and ignorance of these kids is boggling
James spoke right before him, it just went in one ear out the other.
@@aidan5083 I meant hours of James, not his patronizing pro woke mockery. It's natural to debate, they never listened to his RUclips channel is what I was saying. Olive branches are needed now, not righteous arguments. They don't know about his papers written while he was a professor. They just see name calling, we all hate that. Shitting on these woke kids only makes them dig in harder. Much like shitting on James and Jordan makes white supremacist dig in harder. These things are complex and being kind and reserved goes a long way when trying to convince people. Like spanking a child versus talking to and explaining to a child are motivationaly synonymous but in action are very different. These woke kids need conversation not ridicule. Admit
@@aidan5083 think I've watched them all, but don't know what order they spoke. Toby referred to someone called Alex, and I haven't seen them... 🤔
I've seen Toby Young, Konstantin Kisin, James Lindsay and Benjamin Butterworth. Are there any more?
If you could help with the order, that'd be great 👍
Thanks 🙏
EDIT: Just did a search, apparently there are a few more speakers! Cheers anyway 👍)
@@gnoelalexmay if you click on the Oxford Union heading you can work from bottom to top, each heading has a number count down. 1 to 8
@@nickythompson6468 [1 to 8], If You really intended to be helpful, then You should be more specific...1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and then 8!.
He doesn't think WOKE has a voice? He's there, getting to argue his point, which is exactly what they won't allow of others. WOKE was given an inch and now they want the entire yardstick.
Just as the right have plenty of voice but continually claim they're cancelled.
It's not about having a voice. It's about being THE voice. As he states, it's about power. He's saying that "we are going to define the terms, change the culture, and you're going to live by our rules". There isn't a rational argument to this. They don't care about that, which is why they are smirking and having a good ol' time as they speak their disingenuous BS.
We are several decades into a war in which most have no clue has been occurring. Instead of physical weapons, it's using psychological warfare. But the end goal is the same, total capitulation of the "enemy". The enemy is anyone who dares say "no", which is a much deeper problem than you can imagine.
@@joshuataylor3550 Are you really going to suggest that the majority of news outlets in Western countries aren't left-leaning and don't demonize the Right?
@@joshuataylor3550 Tony Young's point went completely over your head I see. The people who actually get cancelled you haven't heard of, because they don't have power or money to fight it. Imagine saying you support JK Rowling on social media, then some rabid twitter user does a comprehensive review of your account, leaks your address and contact details to the internet and encourages people to send you and your employer abuse?
That is what cancel culture is and it happens. Do you remember the story of a guy paying for a plane with the sign "all lives matter" flying over a football game in England? It was reported on in the papers, both he and his girlfriend lost their jobs as their employers were harassed. There was also the guy who literally ran a charity for disadvantaged children in Manchester, kicked out because he voice an opinion on BLM that was not liked by the left - we wouldn't of known about it had he not spoken to a reporter and garnered support against this decision. There was also recently a girl who expressed interest in a game called Hogwarts Legacy on twitter, they contacted her employer and she got sacked.
I'm sure we could keep finding more stories like these if we look.
@@joshuataylor3550 There are everyday people who have had their bank accounts frozen for donating to or promoting right wing causes. This does not happen the other way around.
He is the walking embodiment of “ woke going too far “
Well done to Oxford Union for allowing this debate to happen. This is democracy working.
It's amazing, yes.
What was the vote outcome ? Was it iye?
In the U.S. the aggrieved never allow discussion of their privilege.
Wimmin "occupy" over half the med & law school classes, then turn around
and ONLY join existing law firms never begin them, and practice medicine for
ONE-THIRD the period of male physicians.
Wimmin TO THIS DAY are not required by Federal law to register for "Selective Service" military induction at eighteen...as is EVERY eighteen year old male.
But MOST HILARIOUSLY, their "right" to choose an outcome after VOLUNTARILY
becoming pregnant is VEHEMENTLY DENIED the father. i.e., the father providing a notarized declaration that he will not be obligated to financially support HER "choice" if she elects to go to term. "WE DIDN'T MEAN "CHOICE" LIKE THAT!!"
@@ednamode2524 Looking at the likes on all 8 speeches i'd say it's resoundingly yes.
And yet it seems the heart of the debate was never truly addressed. The greatest threat of some culture is the ideology it promotes, which was barely mentioned.
He is right that Woke is about power. His own position, his career, prominence, influence and standing, such as it is, has been an example of one built around an identity and standing as a Woke representative for supposedly oppressed groups who in reality now seem to be vastly over represented in many areas of public life and positions of power and influence.
Yes, his entire existence is based on standing for the nebulous "other" who is never defined and never asked him to speak for them.
These people are no different from political Commissars who have no skills or morals other than that of serving the Party. They give everything to the Party because it will in turn give them everything back.
@@j.c.denton2060 it will never give it back, they will also fall victim to the next generation of soldiers of the cause.
It's a competition to stay on the good books and do as told
labour leader in the making.
I feel bad for you
8:53 "racist or bigoted views". Just to be clear, he means any views not shared by him.
What I find more disgusting is before that he associated Konstantin Kisin with Putin because he is Russian. But has the cheek to stand their smirking saying if people with racist and bigoted views meaning anyone who disagrees with them should be gotten rid out of the public space. Konstantin Kisin comes from 3 generations of soviat union slaves. His grandfather said one comment in private and he lost his job, his children where thrown out of university and he was forced to flee fo the uk. His grandmother was born in a gulag concentration camp and made to do force labour her little brother starved to death on a transportation train to siberia to do labour. Hisnother grandfather was force to work in germany in a camp as punishment and then never spoke to anyone about it for 50 years or risk being shot as a traitor to the regime and russia. Konstantin has said his mother told him off as a child because he drank milk out of the fridge. That was the only food they had for the entire day for 6 people because they loved in poverty. Woke culture is a regime that believe their views are better than other people and are their for better people everyone else should be guilt tripped for things their ancestors dod centuries ago that has nothing to do with people today unless they join the cult. They are disgusting and dangerous people with dangourous ideological views.
@@Pixie2175you who know nothing of the culture speaking on what we called woke is laughable. You knowing absolutely nothing of the social injustices created to silent harm and kill a marginalized group of people on whom backs the nation was created is disgusting. And the delusion with which you speak so passionately about the degradation one speakers family experienced while dismissing the very group that formulated the term woke into an adjective before it was hijacked by political terrorists for that very reason is not surprising at all. The oxymoronic position you speak from exposes you. And you are the weakest link.
let's construct a strawman, riddicule him and go to no limits with my hyperboly
Also he talks about progress - how arrogant in your beliefs do you have to be to think that everything that came before your generation is somehow wrong or bad for society?
Terms such as racism, transphobia, hate speech and so on mean nothing these days because too many people have vastly different definitions of what those things are. In the last few years we've had opinion pieces in the Guardian claiming skyscrapers are misogynistic and fitness culture was pioneered by the far right. I've argued with people online that seriously believe correcting people's spelling is racist and ableist. How is anyone meant to challenge people with beliefs like those?
You don't challenge them, you mock and ridicule them. If they're going to act as moral puritans in society as they're narcissistic losers then why give them the respect of trying to challenge them when a 5 year-old could do so?
@@MrBannystar One of the things this channels shows is that you should converse with people on the other side of the argument. If you mock and ridicule, noone will ever get closer to eachother. My guess is everybody here wants whats best for all, we just have different opinions on how to achieve that.
@@awwwwyis6657 one cannot expect to get in touch and come to an understanding with people who say that woman with a sick husband deserved to get fired for a completely innocent tweet.
A lot of their rhetoric is built upon a notion, whether they realize it or not, that they're the end of history, that they are the yardstick against which to judge all of human history because they are so intrinsically good and pure that context is irrilevant, there's only the degree of moral purity as defined by them and how much anything measures up to it. They literally do not conceive of ethics as a process which they are just the latest iteration, they just know they have the absolute truth and everything must either bow to their superiority or be broken on its altar. You need to not only agree with the premises and general principles but also agree on whatever is the new thing of the week. You could be the most progressive person ever but all it takes is one point of the agenda coming up that you don't agree with and you're instantly excommunicated. There's no degree of agreeability or space in the framework, there's only the dogma until the next form of the dogma. They are the most puritan group in society right now, they genuinely give islam fundamentalists a run for their money
"Change" has to allow space also for those who don't want to change with you. When the "change" dictates every must change, it goes too far.
also "change" isnt even by default "good"... we can change bad into worse.
@@casusolivas Yes, it's the same with "progressive" always being framed as a positive term. For example, I don't fancy a "progressive cancer". It can be negative too.
@@chrisdavie8163 yeah exactly... or you can progress full speed into a wall... or progress into a cliff... but they dont even care about logical thinking what can we expect from them...
@@chrisdavie8163yes. Funnily enough, the same is true with 'discrimination' supposedly being exclusively bad.
Someone made the point recently that childrens' sports discriminate against adults, for obvious reasons. Which then gets into the trans-in-sports debate. Female sports categories are discriminatory - also for good reason. Repealing them is regressive, not progressive. Same with segregation by race.
The gulf between Butterworth and Lindsey is enormous
The problem is, I guarantee Butterworth won't have listened to a word any of his opponents said and will carry on making his dishonest arguments.
"You can be woke and funny," said after telling an unfunny joke that fell completely flat.
He just proves James' point.
You can never go too far. There is no such thing. It must alway go further. Forever.
Well they're on the same side of the debate, so that's ok. The motion wasn't do you think wokism is bad. It isn't supposed to be a debate about the value of woke culture. It was whether you think it has gone too far. James argued that it couldn't go too far because of the nature of 'criticality' (in a Kantian sense) that he argues props up wokism. Not because it was good. So, of course they agree that it hasn't gone too far. That's the point. It helps to pay attention to what the debate is about before you jump to conclusions.
@@ollie6133, I'm aware of what the debate was about. I was just commenting that he was unironically, sincerely making the point.
I want to see a similar debate that "science has gone too far."
To disagree with Graham Norton's remarks, to disagree with 'woke' ideology does not necessarily mean to be on the right. Not at all. The TRA ideology is homophobic, yet Norton won't dare comment on that. He calls JK Rowling 'problematic'. Well, I call him a 'disappointment'.
@@TryingtoTellYou i didn't write that JK Rowling has ever said anything homophobic. I wrote that much TRA ideology is homophobic.
@@herbertlongfellow7702 Ohhh. What does the TRA stand for then. I am so out of it
@@TryingtoTellYou Stab in the dark but im going to guess trans rights activism
@@andrewshaw1571 OHHHH ty
Around minute 7:30, putin believes that food is good as an energy source. Just because Putin believes that, does that mean that others shouldn’t?
Calling someone Putin's puppet is a common rhetorical scare tactic that confirms just how much the accuser has already lost...
@@jayxavier7357 Of course, especially if that someone is of Russian descent. How very woke of Benjamin.
Participation award for this one.
JK rowling is uncancellable... but talk about the teachers and other who have lost their jobs for stating objectives truths of reality, like biology matters, and males cant be a woman... and that this absurd rethoric do affect women's rights.
Would you happily see those who don't take those to be 'objective truths' cancelled, then? Even if the 'teachers and others' were 'stating objective truths' or falsehoods, that ought to have no bearing on whether they ought to be cancelled or not. The issue is one of supposed free speech. That we can say things free from from overt negative consequences. Not whether we happen to be right or not.
@@ollie6133 I think a Biology teacher who refuses to accept objective biological reality probably should be "cancelled" from their job. There's a difference between truth and opinion.
@@apebass2215 fair enough of 'objective biological reality' is anything to go by. Do you have any evidence of the sort??
@@ollie6133 evidence of what? Biological reality? Seriously?
@@apebass2215 can you supply me with some evidence to the effect that it is 'truth, rather than opinion' ?? I'm guessing not. But I'm willing to be surprised
Whatever criticisms you might want to make of this fellow, at least we have to all agree that he shows tremendous courage in standing up there and telling some of the most spine-snappingly godawful non-jokes in all of Christendom. Bravo!
🤣
@@dpcater he makes water look stiff
One has to be aware to have courage.
Not courage; blinkered arrogance.
Classic motte and bailey. A term created specifically from observing arguments with leftists.
These comments are almost EXCLUSIVELY negative re BB's arguments.
Very reassuring.
Consider that youtube comments are unambiguously terrible and no place for serious debate. An echo chamber of idiocy.
@@brianblessednn Not an echo chamber. Everyone is free to post here. It's just thay your comrades are fewer in number.
@@fuckamericanidiot "We need to censor the 'trolls' in the YT comment section!! Then people wouldn't see how few comrades are in number."
also "Remove the dislike button!"
also "Cancel culture doesn't exits"
/s
@@brianblessednn you mean the marketplace for ideas? dont worry we understand people like you never like to hear what normal people think.
@@brianblessednn
Serious question...
If you see this comments section as unambiguously terrible, but they are largely in agreement, how do you judge whether it is 'everyone else' that is so terrible, and not your own views?
"The right created the word woke"
No the left used to describe themselves as such and we adopted it to mock you for your idiocy. Get your facts straight.
You can’t be woke and funny. It’s a contradiction, the whole point is that a joke is not a joke but something that could offend someone. The people that behave like this are very real.
...and very few
People have been arrested for going against transgenderism on Twitter or Facebook. I wish someone had brought that up. Why is it all about job loss? They get to squirm out of that by appealing to freedom of disassociation, but the fact of the matter is that the British police are cautioning and in some cases arresting people for social media posts.
Thankfully, it's only in the UK. The rest of the world doesn't have it (yet). In my country, a few people were arrested for writing something like "gas the gypsies" on Twitter. Fine by me.
I love how wokesters have to keep referencing historical episodes of 100 years ago almost ALL the time but the other side are referencing what is happening NOW. Wokesters are trying to wear the clothes of an activist from the past..this creates a false reality.
I would think that's a good point! May I ask if you remember other incidences of wokesters referencing historical episodes? Would be useful for my future arguments
I lost count of how often the word "power" had been envoked.
It's all that's left without truth. That's the postmodernist influence on wokeness.
He demonstrates the Motte and Bailey technique perfectly. "We just want them to have life saving healthcare" is the Motte in this case.
Imagine my shock at finding out I have no right to healthcare, especially after I had sinus surgery last month to remove an infection that could have pitentialy spread to my brian and been fatal if left untreated...
(I'm trans by the way)
@@Rachel_M_ Hi, Rachel. I am not sure what your response has to do with what I wrote. That being said, I'm glad you were able to have the sinus surgery and hope you're doing well now.
@@biblicalworldview1 it's another Motte
@@Rachel_M_that's correct, that medical treatment is not controlled by law as to who can get it, or if it's available
@@biblicalworldview1 hi. My comment was in support of your comment, tinged with a little sarcasm towards the speaker's motte and Bailey. It's been a while, but I hope that makes sense.
This was like watching Twitters greatest hits in gaslighting, cherry picking and smugness. There was nothing here but the basic npc dialog tree.
08:55 He comes out and says people should lose their jobs because of their political or social views... And, poor, naive me, I thought McCarthyism was a thing of the past...
He is the one that sounds like the soviat union and Putin that he referred to. He is a really nasty person and a bully. Seen him on a number of shows and is so up his own arse it's unreal. Good on Konstatin for just shaking his head at the idiot. 😆
I'm just a regular working class pleb. I listened to this, and I'm still (after a decade) not convinced. You've gone WAY too far. I happen to be gay but I find the alphabet movement has transformed into something disgusting over the past 10 years.
What's the point of 'pride' anymore if we've already gained more or less equal rights in the west? Can't everyone just move on and let people live their lives? We've already achieved what we wanted. It's time to stop.
For those that have made activism their whole identity, they cannot simply stop. Rather, there must always be a new dragon to slay, for to be without one is to be without identity.
so did women with abortion rights. just because you have achieved equality under the law does not mean people arent working to undo that everyday.
James Lindsay is incredibly well researched, and this guy just talked about celebs and social media etc
Their talking points are getting more stale and dismissable as time goes on. They have burnt through a lot of their good will and credibility over the past decade and now have to switch to hard power in order to maintain control.
Celebs and social media is all they care about because it's not about justice but power. The smallfolk are irrelevant. Just collateral damage. Beneath their notice. They are there to do as their social betters tell them and shut up.
Orwell talked about these people in the 1930s in the road to wigan pier. They don't so much care for the downtrodden as they hate that there are people holding power over them. They want to be the ones with the reins and the downtrodden are just a means to them gettinf that end.
Best part about wokism is it eats itself you can never be pure enough sooner or later you fail the purity test ! give it time and they will come for you Benjamin !
Exactly. There will always be someone more progressive for whom you will not be progressive enough. Believe me, eastern Europe has already learned this lesson. Anyone could at any time become a public enemy and in an absurd trial convicted for actions against the Communist Party.
Oh god this kid... 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
He essentially restates James Lindsay - there is no end to "progress." It's the rationalist, absolutist argument: our way is the best way, and all should embrace it, or else.
They can use whatever name they want. They cant force me to call a bearded 6ft man, a womans name.
Mind blowing argument, imo essentially proved the value of the oppositions points.
Winning is never his point, getting the attention is.
Woke wasn't a term created by the "opposition", it was created by it's proponents and now they try to distance themselves from the term because it has been so reviled.
"You can be woke and funny". they're not laughing with you, benjamin. they're laughing at you
This guy has been torn apart by people like Piers Morgan for God's sake. It's like he didn't even bother to reflect on those talking points and is regurgitating the same baseless, emotional arguments and expecting everyone to just go along with it and say "hey this guy's been repeating the same thing multiple times I guess we should just accept it at this point".
His historical references are hardly analogous to what’s going on right now.
So if someone is pushing views onto others such as "a biological male can be a biological girl" (or vice versa) or exposes minor's to explicitly adult material (which is illegal) to then be fired and made an outcast of society is simply " held accountable"?!
If you call a business or corporation not wanting to be associated with someone who chooses behind close doors to partake in such behaviors accountability ....absolutely. the autonomy doesn't extend to just the woke. It is the woke who are pointing out what people should be accountable for. It is the autonomy of individuals and businesses to decide I chose not to have someone in my business who holds those views. It is not a representation if who I am or who I do business with. Now mind you I don't believe in cancel culture. In the sense that person is exiled from society. But I definitely hold the idea everyone has the right to say what they will or won't align with. That is my right as the owner of the business. But from your statement alone the individual should be more worried about hiring an attorney. Cause the law does not overlook such illegal matters involving children. Being woke is soon to be the least of his problems.
Your grandma had the right to single sex spaces, to be referred to accurately as a woman and to not be coerced into untruths like calling a man a woman. Most women have been flashed at and this is now a crime that is impossible to convict due to the irrational notion of a “female penis”. 1 in 3 women are the victims of sexual assault and males are 98% the perpetrators, this is irrespective of how they identified. Unfortunately any granddaughters of hers alive today do not have the rights that she had. I believe she perhaps shouldn’t have been so polite
Imagine waking up and looking at yourself in the mirror and that’s the cretin that’s looking back at you
The gay rights movement of the 70s was filled with disagreement and debate over tactics, agenda and strategy none of those conversations they had then would be acceptable today in any social justice movement.
Got a minute in and he's started with a lie. Wokes comes from the black nationalist/equality movement and was simply taken up by the bourgeois white left to align with them.
I first saw the word being unironically used in the Graun, at a time when even Graun readers complained they hated it BTL.
None of them ever addressed where the term "woke" comes from which is black slang for being awake to something.
9:16 "Really this question is an argument about power, and who has the right to claim it." Like JB Peterson said, it sounds more like a confession than anything else.
3:25 Objecting to the notion “Now it’s getting much too wild” assumes that no situation should ever be considered too wild. How about when we discontinue evidence-based decision-making in the medical community so as not to offend social agendas, which then harm or worsen an individuals health longterm? All in support of activism for activism sake. Yes, there IS such a thing as too far and WOKE is an oxymoron and a sarcastic label that makes sense
Can you be be a bit less generic and give more specifics on the effect of “woke culture” on the medical community and how it operates?
@@clarissathompson B BA B BA B BA Woke Police.
@@clarissathompson Medical practitioners being pressured to avoid candid weight-related discussions with obese patients is the first one that comes to mind for me.
Or maybe the APA’s clinical guidance on the supposed perils of “traditional masculinity,” where they effectively pathologize some normal behavior.
Or possibly the pressure on pediatric physicians of all types to take an affirmation-only approach to treating children with body dysmorphia/gender dysphoria, even when it means downplaying or eliding the medical risks for certain treatments.
Or when the CDC suggested that people of certain races should be given preferential access to covid vaccines…
etc., etc…
@@seraeggobutterworth5247 well, I live in a country with universal healthcare, as do the speakers in this video. A medical system with a for profit model, like the US, is obviously going to be more focussed on selling services than providing actual healthcare. That’s not to say that healthcare workers are to blame, administration and managers have to ensure a profit margin. If these practices are indeed happening, it’s marketing, not “wokeness”. Expecting a big business model of for-profit care to put ethics over profit is a pipe dream. They want to sell you what you want.
@@clarissathompson like new cars and solar panels
Worth a watch for a laugh. Imagine choosing to be on his side 🤪
Well, Lindsay did it. Fantastically, in my view.
It's kind of funny when Butterbut derides, with blatant jealousy, J K Rowling's fortune. Guess what, she had something of worth to offer. You don't, Ben. JK's wealth protects her from woke maggots. Other canceled people don't enjoy that. The funniest moment of this pathetic rant was when he informed people he joked. Nobody laughed.
"It can tick off Toby Young, but I don't think that's a problem". What a mask off, ominous moment. Did he really just say out loud that he is fine with people who disagree with him dying...tells you everything you need to know about the 'caring, polite' woke people....
When your progress requires gaslighting in order to continue, you've gone too far.
Gay rights did not go too far because there was no objective reality that the population was being forced to deny. "Trans" rights are another kettle of fish entirely.
I almost agree with you. Universal law prohibits gay partners from being parents yet society put gay marriage on the same level as marriage. If it were marriage, why does it need the prefix 'gay' in the first place?
@@dpcater I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Can you elaborate?
@@TryingtoTellYou Look, I'm a conservative libertarian and I think we on the right are too precious about the term 'marriage'. What is the difference between marriage and a civil union other than the term. Matt Walsh's argument on Rogan's show was pretty weak tea.
Regardless, to my mind, the state has no business being involved in partnerships between two individuals. Marriage licences are stupid.
@@dannyarcher6370 That seems rather extreme don't you think? There is a reason marriage was invented. I don't see the problem of men running away from women disappearing anytime soon.
@@TryingtoTellYou The reason marriage was invented was to prevent us guys from killing each other for access to pussy.
And you misunderstood me. I'm not saying we shouldn't have monogamy. I'm not saying we shouldn't have wedding ceremonies. I'm just saying it's none of the state's business.
This guy’s attempts at humour keep falling flat, and I wonder if it’s less due to his clumsy delivery and more that the audience don’t have confidence that he won’t shriek victimhood and oppression if they accidentally laugh at the wrong comment. A lot of his claims are genuinely laughable, but I doubt that was intended.
This was bad. I always wanna hear both sides having solid arguments in debates. I wanna be thinking, oh there’s a good point. I have huge problems finding any here. The one thing I can agree with is that people should be allowed to have their voices heard. But I’m not sure he really means all people in the end though.
Woke, Progressives, The Left - All have good intentions so it sounds all fluffy and nice. Unfortunately, it is all being used as a vehicle to gain power at the moment. What is happening now is polarization, censorship, thought control, segregation, gender ideology, and fuel poverty. It is all driven by ideology and the utopian dream. But do not throw the baby out with the bathwater it is all well-intentioned.
Having the micro-brain Butterworth on isn't really giving the argument a chance.
I hate myself for being born in a country where I can’t go and engage with intelligent people who enjoy intelligent conversations
France?
🤣that’s cold Cameron but no worse South African.
@@governormadea5937 well, you're there, so South Africa has at least one smart guy. Greetings from America, my friend
Ah, progress. The greatest illusion of all time.
There is no such thing as progress, there is only change, which benefits some and not others.
Around minute 8:30, the standard of bigotry is subjective
Things do change, but change isn’t always for the better.
“You can be woke and funny”
Was there a joke in that?
Yes, but not the one he intended.
That comment is the joke.
Benji still doesn't get it.
Likes of JK Rowling will be fine, she's one of the most successful British authors of all time, but it's more those who are not rich or famous.
I wonder if Benji knows about the cases of people like Nick Buckley, or Brian Leech, or Lisa Keogh, or Rosie Kay or Milli Hill to name 5 examples of people who are not so famous who've been victims of cancel culture? I suspect he does know of those cases, but chooses to ignore them wilfully.
Pretty dreadful speech if you don't mind me saying.
The problem with this speech is that it doesn't tackle the main frustrations of well-informed, educated people who are reduced to having to use the term "woke" in the first place. Woke culture represents a shift in the manner and conduct of the average person who campaigns for a right. It represents a trend where people are ultra-sensitive and agitated - where people who campaign for a right are so dogmatic that they will not listen to others. Look at Twitter, for example. It's full of aggressive one-liners which display i) no respect for others, ii) only superficial insights, iii) a one-sided argument. The way debates were conducted in previous decades were more eloquent. A good case study is the Cathy Newman / Jordan Peterson interview on Channel 4 (look it up on RUclips). It's a good example of woke-style speech vs. rational speech. People like Peterson present a very logical argument, but Newman's side often don't.
I should add that most people, including myself, are absolutely fine with the trans community or any other minority group who feels they've been subject to "discrimination". What I'm against is a kind of "reactive", aggressive and irrational style of discourse, where people are disinterested in hearing the full debate on an issue. Actually, I could argue the OxfordUnion is a pretty good example: do you invite any speakers from the Right on your channel? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't look like it. I loathe the binaries "Right" and "Left", since anyone can see that the truth is spread out over the spectrum in varying degrees. Reducing topics to opposites is simplistic and one of the main reasons humans struggle to discuss issues coherently.
Important point: you mention minority groups want to claim power back and that "cisgender men" are annoyed about it. Actually, no - that's not true. They're annoyed about the fact that the minority groups are insulting them in the process and calling them names like misogynist, racist, patriarchal, fascist etc. - a VERY common trope used as a generalising term for normal men in society.
Lastly, many people believe the West is "coming down", as you word it, because of the breakdown of traditional values, which have held humanity together for millenia, as backed up by evolutionary models. Abnormal conditions (i.e., now) result in abnormal behaviour. Surprise, surprise.
"Progress" apparently can only be defined by this person.
This should be a lesson in how to prove your opponent's point for them🤣
Wasn’t it reported that people bought her books just to burn them? That could possibly explain why her book sales didn’t suffer all that much. 😂
I believe the correct term is freedom of expression, which does not stop at speech but also includes arts. It also means that you have the right to feel offended and consequently the right to express that feeling. Feeling offended does however not mean that you may tear down or otherwise damage art because A) it is vandalism and thus punishable by law, and B) it is censorship and thus denial of other people's right to expression. In effect, being woke is nothing different from being Taliban.
Oof... that was desperate. I almost felt sorry for the guy (or whatever it identifies as)... simply saying "I think we have all agreed" doesn't actually change the reality that the majority disagree with you - that was the whole point of having a "debate" on the subject. As for "who has a voice" - it would be a welcome relief to not have LGBTQWERTY+ agendas pushed daily on every form of media, while claiming to be "repressed".
Well that argument fell on perfect hearing ears and they didn't agree.
The platitude "racist or bigoted views" is highly subjective. These days you can be labeled a racist for drinking the wrong color of milk if you don't have the "correct" political views.
Dan
How many of the audience took the yes door?
he's a joke
aas a lesbian, I object to that often-repeated strategy of equating 'trans rights' with gay and lesbian rights struggles in order to legitimize the claims (and methods) of transactivists. There is a big difference between asking for the decriminalization of different sexual orientations between consenting adults and for equal legal rights to protected relationships - and demanding that everyone must accept the concept of a 'gender identity' that supercedes the material reality of sex, must be validated at all cost, and must be granted unconditional access to all sex-based spaces and rights.
The demand that there should be "no debate" on the consequences of putting this belief into law, no debate on what this does in practically all areas of society and to other vulnerable groups; that nobody but this one lobby group should be heard and have any say - that is just profoundly undemocratic.
Living a life in dignity, free from violence, is a human right that of course applies to transpeople as it does to everyone else. Having an ideological belief validated by society is not.
As a lesbian, whose very existence as a same sex attracted female is denied and vilified by transactivists, I object. We supported trans rights and our trans-friends, lovers and comrades for decades - and now we're being denied sexual self determination, physically attacked at Pride, excluded from the very spaces we built. So no! don't use us and our struggles to legitimize that misogynistic and increasingly violent movement.
Where can I watch this debate in full , rather than in segments ?
ignorance of this dude about matters beyond his backyard not to mention other countries and cultures is... profound
Konstantins family where slaves for 3 generations in the Soviet union. His grandma was born in a gulag and he little brother died of starvation on a train to siberia. His grandad was sent to germany as a labourer and never told anyone for 50 years when he got back because you where automatically a spy and a traitor and where shot. His grandad was sacked his kids got thrown out of university and they lost all their money he made one commemtnin private to somone and the soviat goverment found out. He eventually had to flee to the uk to join Konstantin and his grandma.
@@Pixie2175 resentment does not allow to be ignorant
0:44 "Woke is a nonsense redundant term that was invented by people who have always had a problem with social justice" Benjamin contradicting and erasing a speaker on his side Yasmin Benoit who before him gave an explanation about the history and legacy of the term 'woke' in black culture and included an example of the the term being used in the black community as far back as the 1930s by Lead Belly after a performance of a song about racism in the justice system (Yasmin Benoit | This House Believes Woke Culture Has Gone Too Far - 4/8 | Oxford Union - 1 minute 6 seconds). I want to be petty and say "how very white privileged of Benjamin to disregard and correct a black woman on her own culture and rewrite black history for her" but I won't.
Originally the term 'woke' was, as Yasmin points out, first used by the black community. But it has more recently been weponised by anti-progressives (possibly from internet meme culture) to have something 'tangible' to rally against that can define anything with a progressive agenda and so has a broad scope - thus it is easy to hit the mark. This is like a reversal of the term 'queer'. 'Queer' was originally used as a slur against the gay community, but it was subsequently adopted by the gay community to reduce its potency against them. So, it isn't quite as simple as Benjamin contradicting Yasmin. They're both talking about different periods of the term 'woke'.
@@ollie6133 he literally states categorically that the term was invented by people who take issue with social justice. Not hijacked. Invented. That is what he said specifically. Which contradicts Yasmin's statement that is has been used in the black community for generations. He didn't Your defense of him is incorrect.
@@Captain-Cat Fair, if that's what he said. I was being more charitable, however. In principle the two instances of 'woke' are not incompatible. And so it's a minor point that he said that. Although, yeah, he is wrong to say that it was invented, the term 'woke' was brought into popular consciousness when it was weaponised in more recent times. He would have been better to have said it was revived as a weapon against progressivism rather than invented. It doesn't really affect his overall point though.
He’s not making an argument, it’s pure stories and name dropping. Sad.
You can tell the woke culture has gone too far when the official oxford union channel is afraid to put the results of a debate regarding woke culture in the description of their respective videos. And a random commenter has to do that job.
All of the opposition speakers make appeals to the past; say last century opinion and struggles, well fought and won, as if that is what is being debated in the present. What is in contention, is 'woke' overreach in the present - a proposition lost on the opposition.
So was there ultimately a vote, and was the motion carried or defeated?
Everyone who thinks Benjamin Buttersworth has gone too far say "Ay."
He spends all of his time defending what progressives think and not what woke progressives do. He simply ignores the fact that the main problem with woke culture is that people who think differently than progressives are silenced, shamed, canceled, and sometimes fired from their jobs. I'd like to know how he defends those actions.
Nobody said Rowling was canceled. She’s too powerful. Like Gervais. It’s the less powerful that get canceled
The mouth breathing gets me every time
Being polite is a choice and always has been. Compelling speech from individuals is the quickest way to the complete supremacy of the state.
What a sanctimonious weasel.
If I have to hear these dishonest people use the “it’s accountability culture” argument again I’m going to scream. They have to deny it, because it would tarnished their reputation.
I like how he has to strawman the opposition to make his point.
A lot of logical fallacies to say the least...
It's funny he said I won't be the one on the side of Putin. But he is actually exactly like him, you are either with the regime or you need to be removed.
I love Konstantin just shaking jmhis head at it. I have seen this guy on a few shows. He is so repulsive and arrogant he thinks him self way more important than he is. Has as much charm as a door. I watch Konstantin on triganomatry on RUclips he is amazingly intelligent.
No one is against progress but wokeism is not progress but regress. When you look at how life was in ancient Rome and Greece where the whole spectrum of sexualities were practiced including beastiality and pedophilia and along with that was slavery and various forms, extreme poverty with no social safety net.
It was not until Christianity took hold that society became truly civilized where the poor were looked after, the sick were healed, all children had an opportunity for education, equality was earned, not stolen like equity. Capitalism was viable for all classes of people and many people lifted themselves out of poverty!!!