Im feeling Messmer was also betrayed. He did the purge on Marika’s orders and when it was all done and he was no longer of use she declared the serpents and the red fire as blasphemous, essentially exiling him to the shadow realm.
Marika (Eve), seduced the serpent and became a goddess. Mesmer is the son of that union. Miquella is the son that tries to delete that original sin dying and going in the underworld, basically Jesus.
@@reign1594 His wife is probably from the shadowlands, so she must have teached him the rituals of the old snake cult and tried to revive the snake god, but failed because you need the original seed.
@@lupinsensei7456 I think the description of the devourer's scepter may be important to the DLC. It says that Praetor Rykard saw a glimpse of the future (a serpent consuming the world) right before his death. I'm leaning more toward this being a metaphor for blasphemy taking over the world, but that's not what's important here. It's messmer. He and Rykard seem to share a lot of traits (fire, snakes, etc.), but we know he came before him. The thing that makes me believe that the serpent (as a metaphor or the real snake) may play a part in the DLC is the appearance of the weapon and the tree in the images. We see a black tree (Ig) strangling another tree. What do you think?
Some - quite a bit of stuff I want to add, I feel like it was Her who was seducing and betraying possibly that lord we saw in the previous trailer's painting, and perhaps that other woman was where Marika plucked the strands of the Erdtree, perhaps it's the Gloam Eyed Queen considering that all those corpses are flayed. I feel like this was also the story of how Marika ascended to Godhood, Miquella is describing it because he himself wants to ascend to Godhood to escape the prying Fingers of the Greater Will. All so that he can truly find a cure for Malenia. This also describes just how old Messmer is, he's clearly been there since Marika's ascension, possibly making him older than Godwyn (possibly the reason he's told to stay in the Shadow Realm is so that Godwyn would be interpreted as he proper Heir). Messmer's right eye (the one we can't clearly see in this trailer, but is the one that is open in the previous trailer) is the eye of those who partake in dragon heart consumption, being a yellow serpent eye. I think that the timeline goes Dragonlords (sunlit realm) -> Crucible -> Golden Order, with Messmer being around during the same Crucible to Golden Order transition, which makes me question his lineage. I feel like that "Shadow Tree" is the Primodial Form of the Erdtree, that is, the Crucible. Like how we're following in Miquella's footsteps, I feel like Miquella himself is trying to follow his Mother's footsteps, to become a God, free of the Influence of the Greater Will. He's done what Ranni has done (they probably have a Ambassador in the form Loretta, being a knight of the Carian Royal Family having traveled to the Haligtree) in letting go of his flesh.
Rykard saw visions of the future right before he was fully consumed by the blasphemous serpent. The devourerers scepter looks like a snake circling/strangling something, and the tree in the dlc shares this look. Blasphemy has overtaken the world.
In sacred geometry the "birthing canal" shape is called a vesica piscis and is described as "The portal in which we all enter this world" haven't gotten that observation from some other lore speculators. Good eye Jack
The line "one that could never be put to song" screamed Martin to me. Aside from the name of the series, I imagined Sansa realizing knights weren't what the songs said. Like so many empires, it was built on blood. One person deciding they will help everyone by taking over.
"The Lannisters Are Killers. Your Father Was A Killer. Your Brother Is A Killer. Your Sons Will Be Killers Someday. The World Is Built By Killers, So You Better Get Used To Looking At Them."
Exactly that. Btw, I like your interetation of how the Erdtree is marred and plausibly this is what it actually looks like. I had always assumed those were tapping wedges, like a maple when the sap flow starts to trickle off, getting deeper and deeper as the supply dwindled and the tree died@JackisaMimic
Martin had very little to do with the story we see in the actual game. He came up with bios for all the demigods of who they were before how we see them ingame as idea generation for Miyazaki. He hasn't been working on the project for a while now.
@@phillmoore1561 The story of Shadow of the Erdtree is still based off the lore that Martin wrote for the base game though, just a part that wasn't included before. It is still possible that he wrote about a war taking place in the past that was kept secret in some fashion. If not then it can of course just be based off his work and style.
@@Solibrae Miyazaki is no stranger to writing these kinds of themes though, ala Bloodborne. There's no concrete proof that Martin had a direct influence to how this story eventually came to be. Might have easily been something more primordial and early that Miyazaki picked some influences from. Hard to say. Just saying it's not 100% certain and shouldn't be given credit as if it's fact.
@@mmyr8ado.360 really hoping he is not just a griffaggith clone. Griffith lost it all in a moment of stupidity, Miquella did it intentionally for allegedly a greater good. The only traits that match is the feminine features, and the *charm* However, for all we know he just wants a more all-encompassing order(without the flaws of the golden order), get rid of the influence of outter gods, and healing Malenia. The line "kind Miquella" gives me hope that they are not brainwashed/obsessed, unlike Mohglester's "dearest Miquella". Hopefully they are just loyal, and goldy actually a good guy shafted by circumstances.
@@illwillpress100maybe not direct story inspo but 100% inspo nonetheless. 75% of people who watched that scene thought the same thing in regards to griffith/the eclipse
To me it seems the shadow realm was created to hide the war/genocide that occures in order for marika to become a god. And she wants to hide this terrible past.
I agree I would add the land of shadow was probably a part of The Lands Between until Marika did all these blasphemous things then severed it from the rest of the lands to hide her sins
Your second section: Woman in the center of the clip. Kneeling, burning, defeated. Definitely not a random npc! Weapon in her hands curled, like godskin apostle weapons. They had a queen, The *Gloam Eyed Queen*, who wielded a great sword of destined death. Marika stole destined death and sealed it away in order to create the Golden Order. UPDATE: Notice just when the narrator mentions seduction and betrayal, Marika is seen extracting something powerful from a sack with the pale surface like the skin used to create the godskin apostle, through an opening with stitching marks on both sides of the opening! (Play in slow motion to see the markings). "_She cradled newborn Godskin Apostles in a swaddling cloth made of supple skin sewn together_". It might be the seduction and betrayal of the *Gloam Eyed Queen*, not Marika. Marika also pulled a seduction and betrayal trick on Rennala.
@@ShadowProject01 yea Marika is not the one betrayed. When she couldn't defeat the carian knights she (radagon) married their leader instead and abandoned her in a broken state. Betrayal is Marika's trademark..
15:17 that connection is sick. The 'sun' motif is literally fighting the crucible just like how Messmer (who has actual draconic tendencies) does. Also that sun motif is currently reminiscent of Erdtree and Marika as well. Just like how Marika banished and repressed the crucible, well...Messmer is following her lead in a sense
the vaginal opening that looks to be related to godskin cloth and all the bodies amalgamated together actually do appear together in the main game: the volcano manor. Rykard has the same exact looking body 'material' inside him and the godskins are hanging out near the serpent body.
I do think this trailer is showing a VERY apparent relation between the serpents, the crucible and ofc the Godskin Cult! I think this is all part of a heathen past
I strongly suspect most everything depicted in this trailer predates the founding of the Golden Order, Marika and Godfrey’s marriage, the births of Morgott, Mogh, and Godwyn… This event is practically prehistoric in terms of the Lands Between. This war occurred after the realm of Shadow was separated/veiled from the rest of the Lands Between. And that tree is the Great Tree, not the Erdtree. Also the city depicted is not Leyndell.
also you immediately assumed marika is the one betrayed but remember marika could be the one doing the seducing and the betraying and the scheming. her story could be the tragic hero's tale of doing something hubristic in her youth and paying for it with the life of her favorite son. I think the land of shadow is all of marika's skeletons in her closet being carried out continually
Great video, a LOT of interesting points, but just one thing; we shouldn't assume that something seduced & betrayed Marika, perhaps it's the other way around and she was doing the seducing & betraying. She's the one who betrayed Maliketh after all, as well as many other people when you think about it. But again, great video, love the stuff on this channel.
@@JackisaMimic Oh I know that they make very deep characters with complex motivations, and in the end we don't even know much about these motivations anyway. As long as you don't ask me to reserve my judgement for Gideon or Seluvis we're fine, these guys are huge aholes.
Long ago, the Greater Will sent a beast to the Lands Between. This beast eventually became Jack is a Mimic. Real talk, your channel is a godsend for GRRM and ER fans alike. Keep up the good work, the community needs to know these connections! Most ER loretubers only think about Miyazaki and previous Souls lore when trying to make broader connections and don’t even think to look to GRRM’s writing and contribution. Drives me crazy. I definitely think the shot at the beginning with Marika and the bodies is showing the birth of the Erdtree via mass sacrifice. It’s like a perfect combination of the Berserk eclipse and the lore of the Weirwoods/old gods from ASOIAF. Very cool to see.
Seeing marika is so epic. I wonder if we'll ever see her in all her glory. Perhaps the version of her/radagon that we fought in the erdtree was only her mimick, and she escaped somehow. Or miquella is her reincarnation.
I just discovered your channel with your fire and blood video. You deserve to gain more traction. I don't know how I didn't find you before. I watch a lot of elden ring, lore content. Your evidence and analysis stands out.
Can I just say, I've watched almost every lore video for this game so far but I've never seen yours for some reason. And this might be the only one that's completely made sense to me lol. Idk why maybe just the way it's set up. But this just made me love my favorite game so much more I'm about to check out your other videos
Just recently discovered your channel through the mercy of the algorithm and subbed almost immediately, you make a lot of interesting statements and compelling theories without relying too much on the comparisons to the sources outside the game itself. A couple of moments, that, I think, were not mentioned in the video but important to point out imo: 1. In the first segment of the trailer Marika (It's most likely Marika unless there's another doppelganger involved) holds up the golden strands forming exactly the shape of her rune that we can see on Marika's Scar(sore)seal. I think it's important to point out because all other depictions of Marika that we see in-game are of her either "crucified", which doesn't really conform to the shape of her rune if you think about it, or with open arms on Marika's stakes and those don't match her rune shape even more. 2. The architecture of the city that Messmer is burning definitely resembles Leyndell, albeit the walls surrounding it have towers that are similar to divine towers. 3. Messmer's armour as well as his army's equipment resemble that of early vikings or late Rome which could roughly point that the purge happens close to the age of Godfrey. Also the historical comparison to vandals burning of Rome is strong. 4. St. Trina's dress very much resembles the wings of the nascent butterfly, almost the same texture. 5. Almost all of the NPC's present it the story trailer were present in the gameplay trailer as well except for the figure that is second from the right. Also the guy in the golem armour is posed in a way resembling the pose of affected by sleep condition or puppets. Addendum: This relates to the painting shown in the first gameplay trailer. Nobody seems to talk about it but the pin (or broche) on the cloak of the Painting Dude very much resembles Watchdog's Staff which, in turn resembles Troll's hammer, which is modeled after the Fell God's eye. The Painting Dude might be the creator of blackstone golems, or at least watchdogs and imps.
OMMMMMGG thank you for shouting out centered tarnished. The whole psyche thing works sooo god damn well. Also video is great I think your the only one so far to point out all the symbolisim in the trailer! great work!
Attempt in interprating this trailer through a mythology perspective : This greek myth is not super famous but I cannot unsee it now... The way DIONYSUS was born twice. He was first Zagreus (like in Hades yes), born from Persephone and Zeus. But the newborn got eaten by the titans, and Zeus could only save his heart. He "felt in love" with a mortal woman, Semele, and placed the beating heart in her belly so she could make it come to life (again). However, things end tragically as Semele doubted the true identity of Zeus and pushed him to prove his deity. Appearing in god form, his lightning struck down Semele and burnt her house. Once again, he saved the unborn child from destined death... The only thing left was a GOLDEN HAIR, that Zeus used to sew his tigh after placing the embryo in. And later, Dionysus was born "from the tigh of Jupiter". It's not really a theory, just some symbolism crossroads i assume, but Messmer makes me think of Dionysus a lot. In the mythology, he's a very ambivalent and mysterious character associated with uncanny symbols... I love to think that Messmer is also coming from an impossible union of some kind, and that he is merely a symptom of the things Marika had to do to get such power. The imagery Elden Ring can deliver and inspire is SO CRAZY, we can feel in every lore element the unfathomable talent of both Miyazaki and Martin... If anyone read that hope you liked it 😇
I am so glad that you are theorizing that the demigods are born with their greatrunes. I’ve been trying to make sense of it all ever since watching a video from Moxie. She showed a couple different depictions of the Elden Ring, and theorized that Marika reforms the order every so often by removing great runes. I thought maybe that’s why she’s having all these children; to reform the governing order. I mean, when you get to the end of the game, the Elden Ring resides in her body pretty much where her womb is right?
It appears that some kind of betrayal may be necessary to become a god. For Ranni to "walk the dark path of the empyrean" (perhaps this precedence was set by Marika from the land of Shadow), she must "betray everything, and rid the world of what came before". This might look something like the carnage that we see at the beginning of the trailer. And, of course, she betrays Godwyn. Gowry also implies that the rot goddess would only arise when "nurtured by betrayal". Miquella may well have betrayed Malenia as well by leaving her to defend an empty cocoon.
I feel like Marika did the thing where she thought she was saving the world from a great evil without being able to see the full picture, and therefore she actually just made things worse. IE I agree with you, but I think SHE thought she was doing the right thing, or at least a good thing.
You're one of the few people on this platform that I truly enjoy analyzing/discussing Elden Ring. Mainly because like you mentioned, you are a Miyazaki fan and a George RR Martin fan, just like me. You offer more insight to the community because you truly understand who's heart this piece of art comes from. Most of these other channels just spew out less than quality speculation to put it plainly. When you, Vaati, Centered and TTA speak of Elden Ring, it's the only opinion I really want to hear and respect.
I believe. That Saint Trina is the altar ego of Miquella, since he was cursed with eternal childhood, developing the ability to influence people in their dreams what is his only way to legitimately influence the world around him
From the latest Japanese interview of Miyazaki, Shadow of the Erdtree is literally that second tree(Shadowtree) that Erdtree is leeching from. Also apparently "gold tree" is used in the trailer in place of just "gold" in English.
I see a lot of folks talking about the trailer like these events are happening now, no the trailer is basically a blast from the past to show what happened just like in the og elden rings cinematic it’s just to catch you up. But it seems like a lot of what is being said is like “oh this is gonna happen then this” when in actuality it’s already done and been over
This is me commenting before having watched the video! I want to point out a few interesting observations that I made while watching the trailer, and please try not to be too quick to dismiss them: 1) The womb is covered by a cloth resembling a Godskin Robe, and the area is surrounded by a massive gathering of flayed and skinned corpsed - this is the Gloam Eyed laying defeated, while Marika pulls out the strands of the Elden Ring (maybe) 2) I believe that the person who holds up the golden strands is actually Radagon, the form turns masculine and the hair seems more reddish, not just because of the lighting, but its also braided differently to Marika's normal hair, indicating its Radagon - keep in mind that Messmer's Hair indicates lineage related to Radagon and him saying Mother indicates him being related to Marika 3) The massive gathering of corpses seems to be the remains of the great Godskin Hunt of the Gloam Eyed Queen; further supported by the dark, gloamy sky on the other side of the corpse-portal leading to the Lands Between 4) There is a spiral spear that resembles the concept-art of the Godskin Peeler being held by a charred woman at 18:00 5) The armour of the soldiers of Messmer are romanesque or even Spartan or Ancient Greek looking, indicating this to take place thousands of years before the architectural style of even the fortified manor (feudal / medieval era), meaning this is atleast as old as the eternal cities if not older Just a few observations I made, I know it might or might not be something you spotted! Thanks for reading, anyone!
@@JackisaMimic You made some very sharp observations as well, and you calling it an eternal city is spot on! I also guess this to take place somewhere in a classical period, much like the romanesque eternal cities of the lands between, but some architecture seems to indicate it being even older, like the Babylonian-esque gates seen in the gameplay reveal trailer
I get a lot of comments and I try to read as many as I can, sometimes I read a long comment but I only really see one things. Im sorry if you shared something insightful and I miss it!
Great video Jack, you made a lot of connections that I missed. About the Shadow - it is the part of ourselves that we repress due to it being potentially destructive but repression of the Shadow causes it to come out in undesirable ways if I remember Jung correctly. The ultimate goal for Jung and true psychological health was when a person "integrated" their Shadow Self with their Waking Mind. This leads me to believe that the DLC will have us lifting the veils over the Shadow Lands to "integrate" it with the Lands Between Proper while Messmer attempts to stop us. I'm still working through your video so perhaps you say exactly this later on in it, I'm just 5 minutes into it. Regardless, great work!
8:43 When I see the sunset through pile of bodies when Marina is holding up the gold threads… it does look like the sunsets in the lands between, but it is also reminding me of the Elden Beast’s arena. What if she is summoning it/activating it to establish her order?
I’ve always believed the seal on the erdtree opening is an artistic representation of the Primeval current. Basically the transfer of energy through the universe of Elden ring. And those who’ve actually seen it have gone mad bc the truth is sinister, that the erdtree and all other erdtree as exist as a way to transfer some sort of energy to a being. So basically the erdtree is a parasite
i’m speculating that mesmer’s purge “without grace or honour” was directed at the giant’s flame, the crucible, and probably other things that the golden order deemed unfit or ugly or dangerous, like how the giants flame could destroy the erdtree
Marika also won the war against the house of the moon by seducing renala and then breaking her heart leaving her in the sorry state we all know. So i think in the beginning miquella spoke of, marika seduced someone in order to gestate that golden substance in their womb. I don't think she was seduced. As for the betrayal, she must have betrayed that person somehow and also i think those piles of bodies are from the war you see later in the trailer. She killed multitudes to pile them up and create the erdtree.
the tarnished archeologist (i think was the channel's name) had a very convincing video about the erdtree taking over the great tree by grafting or something akin to it. grafting as in the real plant grafting as opposed to the in game bodypart grafting
The scene of the bodies and the golden light with marika in the middle invoke this scene in berserk where Griffith's vision of a castle on the distance is shown to him by one of the god hands As he stumbles on a mountain of bodies to reach it. Most don't notice you can hear the elden beast crashing infront of marika as its ost plays
"The primordial form of the Erdtree is close in nature to life itself, and this spear, modeled on its crucible, is imbued with ancient holy essence" "Nobles are the most ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology. Not unlike the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form." I don't think the Crucible was an actual tree or something physical, but some sorte of archetypal tree of life that Crucible Knights believed in. Marika probably exploited their faith with the promise of bringing a physical treeo of life into the world.
Though I've seen you previous rant about Malenia and Miquella and found it very interesting and compelling I think FSoft trailers are usually less opaque than the lore. The trailers usually are more direct and try to explain the tip of the iceberg directly with images and a narrator. So I think this trailer is no different. I think the first image of Marika holding the the runes is merely her feeding the Erdtree with the runes from the Erdtree burial people whilst she is imprisoned inside the tree during the time the player completes the story of the base game. So on that line the dlc happens before completing the main story.
hey fam! actually I love that someone made this approach. I have a theory I've been working on form months. but first let me give you my perspective on what It could be referred to on the betrayal part. In order to start I need to give a bit of context and it is that Marika planned everything all along to make sure that we Tarnished had a standing chance to defeat the Greater Will. If you think asbout it, the whole game is just an Isekai. So back to it... Marika is **seduced** by the Grater Will. Just as someone selling their soul to the devil, Marika had something she needed/wanted from The Grater Will. So as she agreed, The Greater Will **betrayed** her. The Crucible became deminished by the Golden Order and so any form of the crucible will be tagged as "cursed". So it happened to her twin children Mohg and Morgot. The omen babies were basically tortured and killed by the horns removal. Since these twins were "royalty" they were simply forced to be removed from the eyes of everyone else. I honestly think that at this point, Marika already had an idea of the manipulation of the Greater Will and this could've been added tot he list of factors that made her start planning everything to the point of the Shattering. now the "Affair" part could be the close relation between Marika and the Greater Will. Such relationship could be not form love to each other but how both how such was referring to how much they needed something from each other. As the trailer says Gold was born. The golden Order actually started at that point. With Marika leading but just becoming a puppet for the Greater Will itself. Then Shadows arose. She knowing about the true intentions of the Greater Will, would seek shadows to hide her own as well. How do we know she was preparing for such event? for such Tarnished to free her people from her own mistakes? "In Marika's own words. The Erdtree governs all. The choice is thine. Become one with the Order. Or divest thyself of it. To wallow at the fringes; a powerless upstart." Everything is soooo messed up, that now nothing can be the way it was before. She has given everything on the name of The Order and The Greater Will. She can't beat it. So... whatever is the fate of the Lands Between, she can only trust you will make the right choice. Marika was just another living being seeking for answers, seduced by a power beyond her comprehension like any of us could had been. Made mistakes and learned from them. To become the ultimate force of sacrifice so you could have the strength to win such silent war. Anyways there is more to it but hope this can help to any other idea you may have XD Cheers and you have a new sub!
On the whole I agree with your interpretation - the events of the world are manipulated in order for our specific Tarnished to succeed. I say this in a lot of my videos, its my favorite line from GRRM's Fevre Dream - "Days and years are alike to one who lives the life eternal." Well, if Marika the Eternal hatched up a scheme you can bet it would be a long time coming. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and subscribing, I hope you enjoy my previous videos and my upcoming ones!
@@JackisaMimic Yep! XD I got a nice playlist to enjoy while I work now XD It realy made me feel I was not alone in the whole "Marika is not the bad one" concept. I will definitely pay attention. on each one of them. One last thing though. Since I am just starting the journey on your channel I can't say if you have talked about it but I have noticed no one has ever talked about the alliance between Godrick and Mohg/Varré. Given that there is a bloodrose on Haight Fortress as well as a Godrick knight with a blood ash of war. Sounds like they both were cooking something. I have my own thoughts on it but just kinda wanted to point you on that direction if you haven't and see what you can figure out XD Or I can share it as well if you want to. Thanks again fam!
I figured that the Bloodknight at Fort Haight left Godrick’s employ after being swayed to the side of blood. Varre explicitly tells us to kill Godrick, so if there was an alliance it’s on very shaky ground.
@@JackisaMimic oh that's the trick tho XD Godrick is not a very smart one. Yet he had a Scion ready awaiting for you on the Church of Anticipation. There has to be someone behind it right? What if it was Varré the whole time? what if he and Marika are the only 4th wall breakers knowing that you will come. Yet since Varré knows this ,could explain why he kills your Maiden at the church. Could also explain how conviniently he is awaiting you on Limgrave first thing you see. And last but not least, Varré also understands there are infinite amount of realms. Hence you go into another realm to hunt other Tarnished. He know his sole objective is to deviate you from the path of grace. Think about it as an Isekai. A japanese concept of a regular human being been teleported to another world for X reason. That is exactly what happens to us as players. Varré and Marika do not know what is beyond that Fog but they know someone is coming. Just look again at the end of the first cutscene. A lifeless body on the ground been touched by Grace. That little light is you giving back the life to the Tarnished you will become in the game. "Arise ye Tarnished. Ye dead, who yet live." and then you misteriously appear in a Church out of nowhere. Curious how the in game Tarnished actually arrive on boats and such according to the map pictures but... you don't. Now that been said. We know Godrick thinks he deserves all. He is the true heir. But he was humiliated by Malenia. So what if Varré knew about this and... in order to fulfill Mohg's plans requests information in exchange of protection. The location of Miquella as Gordirck desires retaliation in exchange of letting Godrick know someone is coming and Godrick will have the advantage. But little did they knew Marika was aware of this. So... she had someone ready. In the end, yes. Mohg/Varré do not care whatever happens to Godrick. They used him for one thing and they got what they needed. Whatever happens to him is irrelevant. They need you. Or at least Varré does. Sorry for the long reply but I promise this is the last thing. In order to understand Melina's nature we need to focus on the end of the game. You see, Roderika and the Blacksmith do have their memories affected because of the Gian'ts fire consuming the Erdtree hence the Round Table hold. Kind of weird that Melina can't remember poop and has all her body burnt. Gloamed eye Queen sealed away in order to help you on your path by Marika. This queen is well know to have been defeated by Marika. Could this maybe lead to that "body]" from which the golden strings or runes are pulled out on the last trailer as Melina states she was borned at the foot of the Erdtree. so Could explain 2 things as a theory of course. One, Melina (Gloamed Eye Queen) was defeated and her *runes* removed when the Erdtree is created. Then reborned there (timeline unknown) as she is the only one with the weilding power of using *runes* to turn them in strength. Ok finished. Please feel free to use any of this on whatever material you want to create. Weather if I get credit or not is irrelevant but I think it would be very interesting to see your point of view even if you disagree on this or partially do. Again feel free to do whatever you want with all this theory XD Thank you so much for taking your time on this convo fam!
@@JackisaMimic brother I made a crazy discovery! Look at the picture of Messmer sitting on the throne an the veil of shadows on his back. I believe the is the title picture of the DLC. And then look for the Caduceus symbol. Tell me what do you see :v
I think it looks like an eye socket, I don't see anything anatomically suggesting it's a p*ssy, there would be legs in the way if it were. I see just left of her hand is the shape of a cheekbone, there is whiter flesh under the fold when she takes her hand out, looks like the white of an eye, to the right of the opening is a curved brow. Not to mention the stitch pattern on the skin itself, eye's get sown shut in this world, not p*ssies. She is either unsealing the eye or robbing someone of grace, or both.(?) I know the discourse rn is all about how Marika acts like someone who experienced the trauma of a miscarried or stillborn child, and I agree with that but I think it's creating a bit of a bias in how this trailer scene is being interpreted. The Mountain of corpses being a gate to her golden world is very much a direct nod to Berzerk (just read it or don't @ me) when Griffith is being shown the vision of his ideal kingdom and then shown the pile of corpses it takes to achieve his fate. I think the question being answered in this trailer is how did Marika become a God? She defeated this being who had an eye sealed with golden thread. The corpses are either her comrades who followed her in her war to become Queen, or more likely a premonition of the spoils of the wars to come. I think since prophets who glimpse the tree burning are blindfolded, guilty get their eyes poked out by thorns, Hyetta eating eyes just to make her own blindfolded eyes burn with the light of the frenzied flame, clearly we're being told that sealing or blinding eyes play a pivotal role in discerning fate. So what she is doing in this trailer then is unsealing the fate of a defeated foe, possibly a Felled God of the Flame of Ruin, by opening the seam of the stitched eye, and then taking those strands to the gate and bending it to make it her own fate.
*Eight confirmed children, including the ones Radagon had with Renalla. She with Godfrey allegedly had three, Radagon and Ranalla had 3, and then she and Radagon as one produced 2. If people are right about Melina and Messmer, then that brings the number to 10 confirmed children. And thats not counting the fact that, allegedly, the beheaded demogods in the 7 mausoleums are her 'unwanted' (likely illegitimate) children rather than being grandchildren.
I watch other lore RUclipsrs now and think, "Yeah maybe buuut...have you heard of Jack is a Mimic?" Couldn't wait to hear your take after seeing the trailer. I'm now doing a lore playthrough like I'm Batman, or a detective.
Pay attention to the locations of butterflies and lilies. I didn't mention it in this video (I forgot) but the Exiled Soldiers, who are closely related to the Sun Realm Banished Knights, drop the Smoldering Butterfly which is presumably Messmer's butterfly.
I think the tree we're looking at in the Land of Shadow is the Crucible tree or ancient Erdtree. The power dripping down could be that old life giving sap. Way before everything's veiled and split. Much more arboreal but visibly burnt as a price of war.
i’ve this ABSOLUTELY BATSHIT OFF THE WALL theory regarding the different colours of Gold mentioned in the lore, but also tying into the concept of Buds, like Millicent, and meiosis vs mitosis. Buds being offshoot branches or seperate trees so to speak and people of great power or EMPYREANS are capable of creation of these through MITOSIS with the blobby white bubble dudes marking the start of this process like they are drawn to it’s making ages pass, the dragons still doing their thing, Elden John figures out the deal with trees, the uld ruins sink into the ground either naturally or in battles between the descendants of the peoples of man and the descendants of the beasts as time passes. so much time passes. eventually the numen, the oldest of the peoples of man, gives birth to a Woman of great power and potential, Marika. there is a RED GOLD of the erdtree in the time of an earlier age when Marika unified the world and came to some form of peace with the remaining wild dragons that still tormented all. it is likely to me this is the earlier form of the elden ring with ties to the red lighting of ancient dragons and the power of placidusax and his god when they existed, the wild and twisted form we see present at Farum Azula in my head this is instance of the first budding for Marika, representing mitosis. The Mother cell splits into daughter cells in nature and we see this in Millicent and her 3 sisters coming from Melania, divesting themselves of unnecessary elements that eventually take on their own individual life and being what if the same happened FROM Marika and we got The Snow Witch?? (batshit i know but i think Marika somehow being an ancestor/lost relative of Renalla is interesting and would be cool to see to me cause Ranni is Empyrean too, The Gloam Eyed Queen springs to mind as one of these buds, Maliketh being the first Shadow plucked from the order to fuel grace and PROOF of the sealing process, and Radagon ,possibly being the last two buds. later??, we have marika? form a golden order that is probably a form of melding between GOLD and SILVER through her ties to the Nox that is ALLOYED GOLD, buried them for not a sin they committed against her but FOR her? her power grew too great and she split it up to seal it, Like Maliketh does?? for me in my headcannon Mesmer is a throwback to the ancient times, an illegitimate child of Marika and her bud Radagon before their marriage when she was still with Godfrey. Marika sends Radagon away to fight the Liurnian Wars as he was mad that their child was used as an experiment and went mad with fervour and overzealousness and is a form of sealing the power of Eiglay, The Ancient Dragons, The Fell God of the Giants and potentially other discarded elements of power once capable of extending influence across the lands between (similar to how Maliketh seals DD) to negate their presence in the order of things so Marika can maintain her position as God Radagon goes off and falls for Renalla cause he mad and they have children as we all know but Renalla got ties to Marika and they spawn an Empyrean then comes the shattering? where Radagon fits i cannot place chronologically despite my efforts cause its fromsoft and we probably won’t even get 100% clarity from the DLC…. however.. Radagon despised the gods but couldn’t do shit so he returned to Marika Radagon hoped to somehow bring about the return of the gloam eyed queen through guiding mikella to rebel against marika through his knowledge of the Elden Ring and eventually steers him towards PURPLE GOLD, and the eventual Budding of Miquella into St Trina to usurp marika and the greater wills eternal subjugation of the lands between, which we will see in SotE? Purple gold itself is not mentioned in ER but everything else has ties to alchemy and metals, and we hear of 3 other forms of the golden order through item text soooo
I don't know if the purge could have happened after the Night of Black Knives because this seems about Marika's ascension to godhood and the creation of the Golden Order itself, a long, long time before the Night of the Black Knives. Messmer's purge seems to take place soon after Marika's ascension and thus should be located very early in the timeline, at least before the war against the Giants. This obviously creates some apparent inconsistencies, because Messmer is purging Omens and Crucible-related stuff roughly in the same age as Godfrey and his Crucible Knights. How this would work is anyone's guess, and I assume we'll have to wait for the DLC to be out in order start understanding things properly. My current interpretation however is that the first half of the trailer presents Marika's ascension to godhood, and how she took the pre-existing Crucible of Life (a much older structure, which might have been an ancient tree or a crater in the ground, we're never quite told) and started transforming it into the modern Erdtree. Golden trees seem to require actual flesh and blood to grow, not so much because of Erdtree burial but because of the pots near Minor Erdtrees and the fact that the Haligtree had to be fueled by Miquella's own blood and body. It's quite possible that creating the Erdtree demanded an even greater sacrifice in lives, one that Marika obtained by massacring a huge amount of people through her (firstborn?) son Messmer, starting from all the people she would have gladly done without (and that's why Omens seem to have been particularly targeted in this purge to fuel the Erdtree). This fact was obviously erased from history because of how unsavory it was. I also have a little pet theory with Messmer. Marika had to obtain the Elden Ring from somewhere, a previous deity that held the great rune within her before Marika. So, what if, through seduction and betrayal, that Marika usurped the divinity of Placidusax's deity, previous god of the Elden Ring with an associated Elden Lord in Placidusax, the golden dragon, and Messmer is the half-Numen, half-Dragon offspring of Marika's plots to obtain the Elden Ring from the corpse of the previous god? Messmer's draconic features would then be a constant symbol of Marika's past shady deals, and so it makes sense that Messmer has been hidden as well from the world, serving as jailor of this parallel prison dimension made to hide Marika's bloody ascension to power?
While this sort of speculation gets too far-fetched for me at times, as a huge fan of A Song of Ice and Fire, I love the parallels you’re drawing. Take a sub! Great work!
Of course! In fact, many of my Elden Ring theories come from years of watching ASOIAF videos and participating on various forums. My favorite theorist is Preston Jacobs. My Miquella theories are derived from his Time Traveling Bran theories.
It's really really hard to find that supposedly famous quote which says something like "childbirth is a woman's battlefield". But this idea is recalled indirectly all throughout ASoIaF, assuredly. The closest thing I could find is in ACoK Catelyn VI: "Children are a battle of a different sort." Catelyn started across the yard. "A battle without banners or warhorns, but no less fierce. Carrying a child, bringing it into the world . . . your mother will have told you of the pain . . ."
Man, that almost divine sounding track that plays during Miquella's part of the trailer... imagine this is his boss music. When will it play otherwise? Or did they compose this piece only for this trailer and nothing else? It's boss music for sure.
Your theory about Godwyn makes me wonder if Messmer might be partly dragon or perhaps, the origin of Dragon Communion. The latter is more probable, I think... Aside from that, it looks like Marika is pulling the strands from something wrapped in Godskin Swaddling Cloth. It also looks, to me, that it's possible that the woman on the battlefield, holding the spiral-shaped spear may be the Gloam-Eyed Queen. There's no way to know just yet, but hey, pulling strands from ambiguous sources is seems appropriate, given the first moments of the trailer, haha.
Doh, you stole some of the thoughts I’ve been having right out of me head your clever, clever man!! Brilliant work as always, even when we are on the same wavelength I’ve come to trust you’ll always lend insight and perspective that I would never have drawn myself. Absolutely top of your game, good lad. It’s a 10/10 from me(h)!!
Me personally, I actually feel as though Marika is the parallel to Griffith in Elden Ring in terms of character and actions. Seduction and betrayal mark her ascension to godhood, as well as Griffith, for their dream of a kingdom. Although in Marika’s case we don’t know who was seduced or betrayed, but we can presume that the Land of Shadow as a whole, and their Divine figures, would fit the bill. Griffiths relationship to Guts before the eclipse is much like Marikas relationship to her shadow Maliketh, who wears armor mimicking Guts’ berserk armor, and was also betrayed in the end. In the Shadow of the Erdtree story trailer it is implied that the mountain of corpses she walks over and is surrounded by, was necessary for her ascent. Similar to the vision Griffith had while talking to the godhand. So I believe these parallels lie more so in Marikas origin, and the origin of the golden order, which we don’t know a great deal about so this is mostly speculation on my part, but my money is on Marika being the true story parallel for Griffith. also the split of realms, the creation of the Land of Shadow/the Lands Between, may have a juxtaposing parallel with Griffiths release of the world tree, bringing the realms together. the base of the corpse tree in the shadow realm is also reminiscent of the base of world tree, with the split in the middle leading to the Lands Between
I think the shadow tree is what the erdtree actually looks like, and marika uses this thread magic thing to cover it up and make it look gold. I think that she tried to have one erdtree (like all those statues with the monk holding a sapling in Leyndell), like one order, but the crucible great tree started to keep growing and over take the erdtree. Her solution was to use Mesmer to burn it all down and kill the crucible, culture, tree and all. So she now has to use a fake illusory gold tree. This is why leyndell has ash, and Volcano Manor has the burning picture of the tree. I am starting to theorize that Mesmer is the son of Radagon/Marika and the GEQ, and so is Godwyn. And that GEQ is not humanoid but serpentine, scaley, draconic, etc. Which is why Godwyns body turns into a sea-serpent, and why mesmer has these snake nipples. I also think that the corpse below stormveil is now GEQ. The texture of it and the shape of where the eyes would be look very similar to what we see Marika put her hist into and pull out gold threads. Mesmer doesn't know he is son of GEQ and just thinks he is son of Marika. She gets him to kill the crucible because it is interfering with her one tree, one order plan. I can't tell what the timeline is, but I think the shadowland was created when destined death was removed. And so she was able to use the crucible in the lands between to stop the fire giants, all while secretly the larger part of the culture was being destroyed in the veil.
No better way to end the day than watching on of your videos buddy. Was excited to hear another trailer for the DLC to release and I was interested to hear your input on it Following the Godwyn video I've got a couple of crackpot theories brewing in my head. What if Marika co-opted the Night of the Black Knives with Ranni and possibly even Miquella. My argument is that in the item description for the Black Knive assassin's armor set states that these women had "close-ties" with Marika. Second, I found it quite odd that not once in the game that it was said that Marika demonstrated grief at the loss of Godwyn. It's even more odd that when told about the cocoon in Mohgwyn Palace, Gideon says "Perhaps the Queen's sorrow was justified". Why was her grief directed at Miquella ?(Not my theory, this is from Tarnished Archaeologist)Perhaps as a way to ensure that the Lands Between continues to prosper Marika wanted to usher in a new age by having Miquella succeed her. Since the life giving amber that once dripped from the Erdtree no longer does so. This can be attributed to the fact that the Erdtree was burned, presumably by Messmer which is why all idols of snakes are considered traitors to the Erdtree. (Now for my tinfoil hat speculation)and in order for Miquella to succeed Marika, Miquella would have to be reborn in some way as Godwyn, but the NOTBK went terribly wrong and to Marikas dismay not only was her successor missing and presumably dead, the child who she had to sacrifice to do so is now practically a comatose clam. I don't believe Marika is this ruthless, or callous person but one who is willing to fully dedicate themselves to ensure that the actions taken are done in the best interest of everyone, even if it meant the murder of her son Hope you find this useful And I hope that more people will eventually find this gem of a channel Keep doing what you're doing^^
Thanks for the kind words of support and for sharing your thoughts! One thing I just realized this morning was that although Marika and BKAs have "close ties" those don't indicate they were allies or friends. They could have close ties and hate each other, so the idea that Marika co-opted the NOBK seems entirely possible, and that Miquella and Marika's goals could be tightly interwoven.
@@JackisaMimicit's much appreciated to hear ur input ! And seeing that ur also interested in George RR Martins ASOAIF series,. I see a bit similarities between Asshai and the Land of Shadow, Id like to hear ur thoughts on it
Man you KNOW I’m hoping this place is supposed to be Asshai. Shadow of the Erdtree is the closest thing to TWOW or ADOS we may ever get. One of the reasons I got into doing Elden Ring content is because I want to use it to deduce ASOIAF First we figure out Elden Ring, then we figure out ASOIAF. This is only the beginning 😎
@@JackisaMimic sooner or later George will finish cooking...I think, regardless I see both places are home to arcane and esoteric knowledge and if where the inhabitants wear face coverings i.e mask, its a rather somber place. Theres an interesting area in the dlc trailer that shows footage of our character fighting this red dancer in this area surrounded by what it seems broken ships and flowers and there appears to be a river in it. Possible reference to Stygai ?
Andariel, Maiden of Anguish from Diablo 4. She starts walking around crucified but then breaks out with blazing red hair, and starts using many binding attacks, like she wants you to know how it feels to be crucified. It makes me feel like Marika is the mother of truth, the formless mother that craves a wound. Between being numen and having churches with her crucified statues, lead me to believe she is the leader of the solitary ascetics mentioned on the briar set, guilty in the lands between for what Marika did, but she still has her faithful. I made a timeline once and landed on the golden order not being created until after Radagon goes back to Leyndel, with intelligence learned from Renalla to create the golden order fundamentals, which I think require intelligence. But up until the golden order is something I've been calling the erdtree faithful, after the trailer mentioned them. I think Marika was in control of this order that was still very much golden and probably much more beautiful, with the erdtree in its prime form actually blessing the lands with a giant form of the incantation, blessing of the erdtree. This was how Marika and her people would cheat death, but with death still in the world. Their health would regenerate like the incantation. But after something happened(I presume godwyns death) the tree lost its bountiful rays, that used to give the gentle warmth of the sun. This could have affected Marikas health too, causing her to retaliate(law of causality) and learn how, through abandoning blind faith and understanding the proper way, go back to her being the only god(law of regression). Knowing Renalla is the next candidate for god, expescially after losing 2 wars to her while needing to prove she can maintain order, instead goes undercover as Radagon to learn from Renalla, the intelligence needed to be complete. Once back at Leyndell, this is where I think they both shatter the ring to pluck death to seal, and have Radagon repair it to create a new order, the golden order. If this is true, we the tarnsihed are most likely the ones who helped Marika burn the erdtree the first time, I'd even wager Radagon remembers us and hates us for it, along with the reason for torrent being burnt. It reminds me of an armored core pilot named Iguazu. Dude says something like, I died and became a part of this monster, just so I can fight you. The mercenary who had it all
We don't know what she did....but it sure as hell looked like it needed to happen. The Greater Will is the good guy after all so if he is guiding this then my tarnished shall follow.
I'm pretty certain that's miquella's haligtree wrapping around the erdtree? Go look at a silhouette of the halig tree. The outer unkempt twigs look so similar.
So, the armors that we've seen for the DLC are giving some major Roman/Hellenic vibes, between the spear and shield, the marching in very clearly Roman fashion, the masks could be homage to their shared love of the human form... I'm wondering if we're not going to be getting some Ancient Dynasty lore out of this DLC after all. Worth noting about Mesmer and his snake connections; snakes are often tied to fertility gods in our own world (I don't know why, the ancients were just freaky, I guess?), so him being the offspring of Marika + either a Dragon or Snake god could be a fascinating juxtaposition to the current order. We know there is a seduction (possibly Marika and the Serpent to get Mesmer? This would also explain why Rykard's alliance with the Serpent was considered such a major blasphemy.) and a betrayal, which I think may be Marika using Mesmer to wage a near-genocidal war against either the previous Order of Death or against the Serpent, who could possibly be the god of the Ancient Dynasty. Alternatively, the narrator is a NPC who sees Mesmer, son of the Serpent, betraying his people and his dynasty. The thing about wiping out an entire civilization is that inevitably, you're going to miss something, hence their architecture and relics still being in the Lands Between. This is giving me hope in Miquella being an ally to the Tarnished rather than another Demigod to be slain. His goals of curing Malenia and forging an Order without Mother-Father-dearest's contradictions. Given the St. Trina alternate identity, I conclude that Miquella is supposed to be the harsh mirror to Marika/Radagon. He's supposed to be the savior archetype, taking the current Order and finding all it's flaws so he can fix them. But to quickly say, Jack, even if I disagree with your take, you make it incredibly entertaining and high value in production that I can't help but enjoy it regardless. I look forward to seeing the upcoming videos, because those theories sound wild and I am here for it!
Separating the erdtree and the great tree as two different entities could help here, the great tree was before the erdtree and marika took over it to turn it into erdtree. There used to be a golden sap leaking from the great tree. I believe tarnished archeologist had a theory about this.
So i just beat my first playthrough this past February but haven't picked an ending because I'm the dlc will give me some way to make roderika, and maybe even hewg, not stay in the roundtable hold and burn up. I have the death rune and ranni ending accesible to me, but from what I've seen and can tell from the trailer and if it's possible, I'm siding with the gloameyed queen or maybe miquela/st trina depending on his true intentions, and then picking fia's ending or ranni's ending afterwards, unless i can save roderika and hewg but need a different ending.
I know this goes against everything that we know, but it is stated pretty directly in the transcript from the first trailer for the DLC that Miquella divested himself of his flesh, his strength, his lineage, of all the things of his that are golden. From this statement, it appears to be possibly claiming that Miquella's lineage is golden. That goes against everything we've been told about his lineage, considering that the golden lineage is said to be the offspring of Godfrey, and not Radagon, but then again, Radagon is Marika. By the way, does the fact that Radagon is Marika, and that the golden lineage is the offspring of Godfrey and Marika, and presumably not Radagon imply that Radagon did not become Marika until after the golden lineage came to be? Edit: Unless Radagon and Marika were able to conceive before even the golden lineage. I know your thoughts about the timeline of Miquella and Malenia's origin, Jack. Another interpretation of that line from the first DLC trailer is that besides his flesh, his strength, and his lineage, he divested himself of all he was that was golden, meaning anything that made him a demigod or that connected him to the Golden Order.
A few dissociated thoughts: 1. The war against the giants happened at the birth of the Erdtree. This was when the land of shadow and the lands between were one land. 2. Was the same true of the Liurnian Wars? Did they happen while the lands were all one? 3. I've often thought that the (re)union of Marika and Radagon was the birth of the Golden Order. Radagon is closely associated with Golden Order Fundamentalism. But GOF was not conceived of until after his union with Rennala, when he learned to be a scholar. GOF spells require equal Faith + Intelligence. 4. Maybe Golden Order Fundamentalism thus is a reactionary look back towards the Fundamentals of the Golden Order, but shouldn't be construed with the Golden Order itself, which was "simply" the removal of DD from the Elden Ring. IRL, Fundamentalist Christianity is a reactionary look back at Christianity before Catholicism, going back to the "fundamentals" of the bible. But it would be wrong to call primordial Christianity "fundamentalist". 5. So we have a timeline that looks something like: a. Lands connected. Greattree/crucible time. No one single ruler/civilization: Dragons, Giants, Carians, Eternal Cities, etc etc etc all live under different orders. Many gods: Fell god, Deathrite Bird God, Rot God, etc etc. Maybe at this time the Elden Ring exists, but as simply one of the many orders, that of the Dragons/Sun Realm/Beast Men. b. Marika + Godfrey team up. Union of Numen/Eternal Cities + Crucible/Warrior culture. They begin conquering all these lands. They take the Great Tree (from Godfrey's people?). They take the Elden Ring from the Dragons after they are conquered. They merge these ideals into the Erdtree. Radagon marries Rennala, merge the ideals of the moon into the Golden Order. Mirial at the Church of Vows makes it *very* explicit that the Golden Order is maleable and open to new ideals being integrated into it. c. However, they reject other ideals. The fire of the giants is a danger to the new Erdtree, so is all but extinguished. The Rot is sealed away in its lake underground. The godslayers are doing their work, slaying as many of the smaller gods, unknown to us now, as they can. The bodies we see in this trailer are the many dead from these many wars (including the Liurnian ones). d. At some point during all of this, the original Great Tree is burned, the Erdtree is birthed in rays of gold, and the lands of the Numen become the Shadow Realm, cast into shadow and forgotten by all in the Lands Between. This requires a betrayal: betraying the Gloam Eyed Queen, removing Destined Death from the Elden Ring to create the original Golden Order. e. My guess is that Messmer & Melina are twins, children of Marika & Godfrey. Melina as we know her is what remains of the GEQ after she was used unwittingly as the Kindling Maiden to burn the Great Tree with her brother's flame-the betrayal of the only child (at this point) that could succeed Marika. Mariika removes the very ideal of succession from the Elden Ring when DD is removed and she becomes Eternal. f. Messmer, who wields a flame that could endanger the Erdtree, is locked in the Shadow Realm upon its creation. Another betrayal, this time of the child whose bloody burning wrath was used to burn the previous orders in order to make way for the new. g. The Golden Order is created. The lands between exist in beautiful Golden peace. The Shadow Realms exist in a state of constant torment, tyranny, and war, having been given up for Messmer to rule over in his twisted way.
I think your timeline looks solid to me. Have you considered making your own videos? These ideas and how you piece them together appear cohesive at first glance. My ONLY push back is I think Golden Order Fundamentalism was developed prior to Radagon becoming second Elden Lord, and that Miquella's gifts of Discus and Triple Rings to his father were attempts to "reteach" him of the process of learning the truth. But that is for ANOTHER video when I can get to it. Radagon's story is so rich and complex but masterfully hidden, perhaps I am just seeing shadows ;)
@@JackisaMimic Thank you Jack! I actually have considered making videos, but I know from my days podcasting that right now I don't really have the time/energy for content creation. I will instead enjoy posting into the youtube void :) It's funny, the thing you push back on was the thing I thought was most accepted! I am very curious how you think about Radagon, the *when*s of Radagon's story are very opaque to me. I am very much looking forward to the spaceships, btw. Have you read The Book of the New Sun? The more I think about outer gods, the more I think about Wolfe rather Lovecraft. And we know Martin is a fan. There is something very "dying earth" genre about the way that Elden Ring discusses the stars, other lands, outer gods, etc.
Golden Order has always existed (even during Placidusax), it’s the Golden Order Fundamentalist that it’s credited to Radagon, after leaving Liurnia, and returning to Leyndell. Think of it as GO how reality works, and GOF as the study of how it works
@@EldenRingBuildsArchive I think this is exactly what Marika / the Golden Order want you to think. But the reality is that in the past there were a multitude of orders co-existing. Maybe the Golden Order was one of them (although I suspect we'll see that the Golden order is actually the fusing of several, while also the expulsion of a core element). But the idea that the Golden Order rules over all is essentially what the Golden Order is. But it's not always been a fundamental truth. It made itself one through Marika's actions that we'll learn about in the DLC.
sorry, long comment, but these were my thoughts as I went through the video It makes sense with the narration, but it is confusing to place the beginning of the trailer with Marika as pre-golden order. IF where Marika is standing is in the Shadow Realm, as the scene seems to show, it should be after the Erdtree's first burning at the hands of Messmer. And, under Godfrey's rule the snake was already a traitor, which means Messmer burned the Erdtree long before Radagon was ever in the picture officially. But if Messmer calls Marika "Mother", has Radagon's trademark red locks, and his name roughly fits with Malenia/Miquella, it seems like Radagon would be his father. Which is possible but seems... odd. I've wondered if maybe Radagon is the son of a Marika-Messmer relationship, and THAT was the affair in question, while she was with Godfrey. But then the names don't fit, and though it'd explain Radagon not liking his red hair because it means traitor snake man Messmer is his Brother-Dad, that contradicts Radagon not liking it because it means he's related to the giants. Which COULD work if Messmer had red hair because of some giant lineage, but that's getting rather forced and convoluted. It makes more sense that Messmer is another Marika/Radagon child, who is a probably a psychopath because of the inbreeding. At the same time though, placing Radagon with Marika pre-God-Queenhood to have Messmer, which Marika then WAY LATER makes an ideological sacrifice out of (by either encouraging him to burn the Erdtree, or he just did that on his own because he's nuts and Marika used the opportunity to consolidate power), and then again WAY LATER hooks back up with Radagon does _work,_ but again, does not sound right. I'd also say at 4:45 is less birth, more abortion. Maybe something like GEQ was doing a kinda 'gestation' of a rune (of death, perhaps). Or, given she was a 'Queen', maybe she was housing the full Elden Ring in this way. On the Jungian shadow, repression (or 'veiling' in the game's parlance) is definitely not ideal. I would hope this is part of what you're trying to say, but you made it sound like a good thing. You can see pretty clear allusions to shadow selves with Godfrey/Serosh integration (more Freudian), enabling them to rule. Conversely, with Marika's hiding the Shadow Realm and persecuting Omen, this inability to reconcile things as they are and how they ought to be is repression of the shadow. Being unable to stop Radagon from repairing the Elden Ring also looks like Marika basically going too far with integration, being overwhelmed by her shadow. Mari-Gon does diverge from this model plenty though, they're more like a Daoist duality heading a Christian-style faith in a pseudo-pantheistic universe governed by Shinto gods. So, good luck disentangling that one. I don't think that Messmer's war can possibly be after the Night of the Black Knives, because that was what started the Shattering. Radagon is necessarily already in the picture at the Shattering, since he kinda has to be there to repair the ER while Marika is trying to shatter it. And, this war with Messmer is definitely implied to be what makes snakes so reviled during Godfrey's reign, long before.
I still think that the gore on the stairs Marika is walking on is the connected to the Formless mother or something, which would connect her to the creation of the Erdtree and also the Omen and especially Mogh to the DLC. The tree has the live blended into it, literally.
Here is some of my deductions/assumptions of the story trailer. Just as a fan, not a content creator but still want to share what i understand and my predictions ig Section 1: I believe the seduction and betrayal might be about the godskins. What she pulls the gold out of looks like the swaddling cloth, the sky is gloamy, the bodies are all skinned and red and fleshy. Also, gold here definitely is synonymous with light and life, and shadow and death as the opposites. Gives off dark souls vibes. Another point (imo) the golden order was not made yet, the erdtree wasn't either. Just Gold. Marika brought Gold onto the world and has to fight for its existence, leading into the second section with the war against mesmer. Section 2: Mesmer's eye is very similar to the lion dancer, and I'm curious as to what the connection might be. If mesmer is a tyrant maybe Marika is leading an uprising and mesmer burns the city? This would also go along with the later half of the trailer where miquella has followers and is leading them here too, since miquella is following Marikas path. Section 3: I think in the first trailer it's miquella that mesmer is mentioning when he says "would truly thou lordship sanction in one so bereft of light" because miquella abandoned the golden order and all things gold. He is walking her path, finding a whole new type of order, maybe even something to rival the elden ring itself. Section 4: we see miquellas followers. I believe Marika couldn't beat mesmer and had to seal the land of shadows, veil then away instead of beating mesmer. I think we will lead the charge against mesmer and do what Marika could not, in the name of miquella. (And maybe a secret boss where we get to fight miquella and steal whatever power he finds/creates. Fitting for the beginning with the seduction and the betrayal) Just overarching ideas and themes, nothing too gritty in the details since we can't be sure and I'm not that deep into the lore to think of the minute details that would affect this idea
The secret is: we are all just fans. I'm just a mimic with a microphone, my opinion is no more valid than yours just because I recorded and uploaded it. Thanks for sharing a lot of your thoughts. What I find interesting is that you set Marika and Messmer's relationship as antagonistic and that he may have been the root cause of conflict. Which is entirely possible, I could see a scenario where the son becomes a ruthless ruler and his mother disapproves.
I just want to point out that no one is talking about the blood/formless mother. After all, she's the only outer God whom has no physical presence within the lands between just as Messmer. It is by her hand or in her presence the tarnished will enter the realm of Shadow. The formless Mother is also the only God that favors the crucible/omen by giving Mohgwyn and others the power of her blood. A formless being, in the form of blood, blood that can be used anywhere throughout the Lands Between. Perhaps she is only formless in the Lands between knowing the present Eardtree is an illusion casting a veil of Shadow to which realm the Formless Mother(Primordial Eardtree) resides. Seeing as the Eardtree has been burnt before the tarnished rule. Which would help explain Placidusaax being elden lord to a God because the dragon wasn't a god himself. That God being the "Formless" Mother, who's "form" may be what we are shown being defiled(betrayed) by Maricka to birth her age of gold from the God Mother's soul. In that case, the Greater Will is an illusion in itself, created by Maricka in the image of her own Will. Creating an even greater illusion that by killing a God's body, she became a god. Yet the God Mother remains to all, may be it in the form of shadow, gold, blood, you name it.
24:40 hmmm i like that actually, because the Omen Lion using golden lightning bugs me, but if we have Godwyn's influence in the Lands of Shadow this could be explained.
I think you got the timeline wrong slightly. I believe what we are seeing in the start of the video is the "birth" of the erdtree Destine Death removed and that stuff happens later when the rune is removed from the elden ring. Which probably didn't even exists at the time of this trailer.
My timeline would be like: The crucible is already in the Lands Between, Marika arrives bringing the Golden Order, Allies herself with the Crucible, Marries Godfrey, Godfrey/Crucible wins her wars against the Giants, Dragons, and possibly the Godskins, Marika casts Godfrey out, Marika Marries Radagon, They have Messmer, Marika betrays the crucible and sends Messmer to eliminate every trace of it.
Curious to know your thoughts on the word "affair" in this section. How should we interpret it? I did so quite literally. That is, Marika seducing and then betraying Godfrey, having an affair with someone (something -- a dragon!?) resulting in the birth of gold (Godwyn) and shadow (Messmer), who would then be twins, both rife with draconic imagery, and providing a nice symmetry across all sets of her children, making all of them twins. That is, the fell twins (with Godfrey), the twin prodigies (with Radagon) and the draconic twins (with something or someone). I think this is sort of consistent with a video you had made in the past about Godwyn being part dragon and not being Godfrey's son. I do like your interpretation of the gold arising and shadow being born, I just totally neglected to draw the connection between "shadow" and Maliketh haha. EDIT: Forgot to say thanks for the video!
When miquella put himself into the cocoon at his haligtree he was going to become the new god upon his return(like how godfrey returns but isn’t a god cause marika took his grace to go to war). When mohg takes miquella we see that he is still young so Whatever mohg did to miquella killed him if his body reverts to the state that margit reverts to after we kill him.
We know Marika is pretty duplicitous, she betrays her own servants, so why would you assume it's someone betraying her at 11:05 and not her committing a great betrayal
I don’t think this is what you were getting at with the Memory Stones but is it just me or do they cause that optical illusion where if you stare at them they leave an afterimage? Also would be a clever way for them to leave a “memory”
Im feeling Messmer was also betrayed. He did the purge on Marika’s orders and when it was all done and he was no longer of use she declared the serpents and the red fire as blasphemous, essentially exiling him to the shadow realm.
Yea I had this thought too
Totally, just as she did to Godfrey
Least he wasn't sent to Detroit....
What if messimer is her baby daddy
Marika (Eve), seduced the serpent and became a goddess. Mesmer is the son of that union. Miquella is the son that tries to delete that original sin dying and going in the underworld, basically Jesus.
How does rykard tie into this? He's also a blasphemous serpent.
@@reign1594 Presumably merged with the same(?) serpent during the Shattering. Maybe he's just a big Messmer fanboy?
@@reign1594 His wife is probably from the shadowlands, so she must have teached him the rituals of the old snake cult and tried to revive the snake god, but failed because you need the original seed.
@@lupinsensei7456 I think the description of the devourer's scepter may be important to the DLC. It says that Praetor Rykard saw a glimpse of the future (a serpent consuming the world) right before his death. I'm leaning more toward this being a metaphor for blasphemy taking over the world, but that's not what's important here. It's messmer. He and Rykard seem to share a lot of traits (fire, snakes, etc.), but we know he came before him. The thing that makes me believe that the serpent (as a metaphor or the real snake) may play a part in the DLC is the appearance of the weapon and the tree in the images. We see a black tree (Ig) strangling another tree. What do you think?
@@lupinsensei7456 this is actually a very valid theory, guess we’ll have no clue if ur right until the 21st lol
Some - quite a bit of stuff I want to add,
I feel like it was Her who was seducing and betraying possibly that lord we saw in the previous trailer's painting, and perhaps that other woman was where Marika plucked the strands of the Erdtree, perhaps it's the Gloam Eyed Queen considering that all those corpses are flayed.
I feel like this was also the story of how Marika ascended to Godhood, Miquella is describing it because he himself wants to ascend to Godhood to escape the prying Fingers of the Greater Will. All so that he can truly find a cure for Malenia.
This also describes just how old Messmer is, he's clearly been there since Marika's ascension, possibly making him older than Godwyn (possibly the reason he's told to stay in the Shadow Realm is so that Godwyn would be interpreted as he proper Heir).
Messmer's right eye (the one we can't clearly see in this trailer, but is the one that is open in the previous trailer) is the eye of those who partake in dragon heart consumption, being a yellow serpent eye.
I think that the timeline goes Dragonlords (sunlit realm) -> Crucible -> Golden Order, with Messmer being around during the same Crucible to Golden Order transition, which makes me question his lineage.
I feel like that "Shadow Tree" is the Primodial Form of the Erdtree, that is, the Crucible.
Like how we're following in Miquella's footsteps, I feel like Miquella himself is trying to follow his Mother's footsteps, to become a God, free of the Influence of the Greater Will. He's done what Ranni has done (they probably have a Ambassador in the form Loretta, being a knight of the Carian Royal Family having traveled to the Haligtree) in letting go of his flesh.
Rykard saw visions of the future right before he was fully consumed by the blasphemous serpent. The devourerers scepter looks like a snake circling/strangling something, and the tree in the dlc shares this look. Blasphemy has overtaken the world.
In sacred geometry the "birthing canal" shape is called a vesica piscis and is described as "The portal in which we all enter this world" haven't gotten that observation from some other lore speculators. Good eye Jack
I guess I have an eye for it 😹
The line "one that could never be put to song" screamed Martin to me. Aside from the name of the series, I imagined Sansa realizing knights weren't what the songs said. Like so many empires, it was built on blood. One person deciding they will help everyone by taking over.
"The Lannisters Are Killers. Your Father Was A Killer. Your Brother Is A Killer. Your Sons Will Be Killers Someday. The World Is Built By Killers, So You Better Get Used To Looking At Them."
Exactly that. Btw, I like your interetation of how the Erdtree is marred and plausibly this is what it actually looks like. I had always assumed those were tapping wedges, like a maple when the sap flow starts to trickle off, getting deeper and deeper as the supply dwindled and the tree died@JackisaMimic
Martin had very little to do with the story we see in the actual game. He came up with bios for all the demigods of who they were before how we see them ingame as idea generation for Miyazaki. He hasn't been working on the project for a while now.
@@phillmoore1561 The story of Shadow of the Erdtree is still based off the lore that Martin wrote for the base game though, just a part that wasn't included before. It is still possible that he wrote about a war taking place in the past that was kept secret in some fashion. If not then it can of course just be based off his work and style.
@@Solibrae Miyazaki is no stranger to writing these kinds of themes though, ala Bloodborne. There's no concrete proof that Martin had a direct influence to how this story eventually came to be. Might have easily been something more primordial and early that Miyazaki picked some influences from. Hard to say. Just saying it's not 100% certain and shouldn't be given credit as if it's fact.
Massive berserk eclipse vibes from Marika climbing those gory steps.
Someone also mentioned that the followers of Miquella were like when the Band of the Hawk rescued Griffith.
@@mmyr8ado.360 really hoping he is not just a griffaggith clone.
Griffith lost it all in a moment of stupidity, Miquella did it intentionally for allegedly a greater good. The only traits that match is the feminine features, and the *charm*
However, for all we know he just wants a more all-encompassing order(without the flaws of the golden order), get rid of the influence of outter gods, and healing Malenia.
The line "kind Miquella" gives me hope that they are not brainwashed/obsessed, unlike Mohglester's "dearest Miquella". Hopefully they are just loyal, and goldy actually a good guy shafted by circumstances.
@@mmyr8ado.360 I expect Miquella to try to sacrifice them and player character in order to further ascend.
grr martin wrote the story, elden ring doesn't take story inspiration from berserk
@@illwillpress100maybe not direct story inspo but 100% inspo nonetheless. 75% of people who watched that scene thought the same thing in regards to griffith/the eclipse
To me it seems the shadow realm was created to hide the war/genocide that occures in order for marika to become a god. And she wants to hide this terrible past.
I agree I would add the land of shadow was probably a part of The Lands Between until Marika did all these blasphemous things then severed it from the rest of the lands to hide her sins
Your second section: Woman in the center of the clip. Kneeling, burning, defeated. Definitely not a random npc! Weapon in her hands curled, like godskin apostle weapons. They had a queen, The *Gloam Eyed Queen*, who wielded a great sword of destined death. Marika stole destined death and sealed it away in order to create the Golden Order.
UPDATE: Notice just when the narrator mentions seduction and betrayal, Marika is seen extracting something powerful from a sack with the pale surface like the skin used to create the godskin apostle, through an opening with stitching marks on both sides of the opening! (Play in slow motion to see the markings). "_She cradled newborn Godskin Apostles in a swaddling cloth made of supple skin sewn together_". It might be the seduction and betrayal of the *Gloam Eyed Queen*, not Marika. Marika also pulled a seduction and betrayal trick on Rennala.
I feel like the one betrayed was the Gloam Eyed Gloam Queen. Maybe that gold being taken out of that cloth was the Gloam eyed queen.🤔
@@ShadowProject01 I think so as well!
@@ShadowProject01 yea Marika is not the one betrayed. When she couldn't defeat the carian knights she (radagon) married their leader instead and abandoned her in a broken state. Betrayal is Marika's trademark..
15:17 that connection is sick. The 'sun' motif is literally fighting the crucible just like how Messmer (who has actual draconic tendencies) does. Also that sun motif is currently reminiscent of Erdtree and Marika as well. Just like how Marika banished and repressed the crucible, well...Messmer is following her lead in a sense
the vaginal opening that looks to be related to godskin cloth and all the bodies amalgamated together actually do appear together in the main game: the volcano manor. Rykard has the same exact looking body 'material' inside him and the godskins are hanging out near the serpent body.
Yes about the godskin thing! I saw someone in some comments somewhere call it “a pile of skins” and I can’t get it out of my head now.
I thought it was an eye and the threads were eye threads. It looks like godwyns eye to me, or the face of death root see see
I do think this trailer is showing a VERY apparent relation between the serpents, the crucible and ofc the Godskin Cult! I think this is all part of a heathen past
I strongly suspect most everything depicted in this trailer predates the founding of the Golden Order, Marika and Godfrey’s marriage, the births of Morgott, Mogh, and Godwyn…
This event is practically prehistoric in terms of the Lands Between.
This war occurred after the realm of Shadow was separated/veiled from the rest of the Lands Between.
And that tree is the Great Tree, not the Erdtree. Also the city depicted is not Leyndell.
also you immediately assumed marika is the one betrayed but remember marika could be the one doing the seducing and the betraying and the scheming. her story could be the tragic hero's tale of doing something hubristic in her youth and paying for it with the life of her favorite son. I think the land of shadow is all of marika's skeletons in her closet being carried out continually
Great video, a LOT of interesting points, but just one thing; we shouldn't assume that something seduced & betrayed Marika, perhaps it's the other way around and she was doing the seducing & betraying. She's the one who betrayed Maliketh after all, as well as many other people when you think about it. But again, great video, love the stuff on this channel.
In a sea of Marika hate, I am the shining beacon defending the honor of the eternal God-Queen! (video on it before the DLC hopefully 🤞)
@@JackisaMimic Oh I know that they make very deep characters with complex motivations, and in the end we don't even know much about these motivations anyway. As long as you don't ask me to reserve my judgement for Gideon or Seluvis we're fine, these guys are huge aholes.
Long ago, the Greater Will sent a beast to the Lands Between. This beast eventually became Jack is a Mimic.
Real talk, your channel is a godsend for GRRM and ER fans alike. Keep up the good work, the community needs to know these connections! Most ER loretubers only think about Miyazaki and previous Souls lore when trying to make broader connections and don’t even think to look to GRRM’s writing and contribution. Drives me crazy.
I definitely think the shot at the beginning with Marika and the bodies is showing the birth of the Erdtree via mass sacrifice. It’s like a perfect combination of the Berserk eclipse and the lore of the Weirwoods/old gods from ASOIAF. Very cool to see.
Seeing marika is so epic. I wonder if we'll ever see her in all her glory. Perhaps the version of her/radagon that we fought in the erdtree was only her mimick, and she escaped somehow. Or miquella is her reincarnation.
I just discovered your channel with your fire and blood video. You deserve to gain more traction. I don't know how I didn't find you before. I watch a lot of elden ring, lore content. Your evidence and analysis stands out.
Just the fact that you found my videos is enough for me, hope you enjoy the rest of my uploads!
Can I just say, I've watched almost every lore video for this game so far but I've never seen yours for some reason. And this might be the only one that's completely made sense to me lol. Idk why maybe just the way it's set up. But this just made me love my favorite game so much more I'm about to check out your other videos
Just recently discovered your channel through the mercy of the algorithm and subbed almost immediately, you make a lot of interesting statements and compelling theories without relying too much on the comparisons to the sources outside the game itself.
A couple of moments, that, I think, were not mentioned in the video but important to point out imo:
1. In the first segment of the trailer Marika (It's most likely Marika unless there's another doppelganger involved) holds up the golden strands forming exactly the shape of her rune that we can see on Marika's Scar(sore)seal. I think it's important to point out because all other depictions of Marika that we see in-game are of her either "crucified", which doesn't really conform to the shape of her rune if you think about it, or with open arms on Marika's stakes and those don't match her rune shape even more.
2. The architecture of the city that Messmer is burning definitely resembles Leyndell, albeit the walls surrounding it have towers that are similar to divine towers.
3. Messmer's armour as well as his army's equipment resemble that of early vikings or late Rome which could roughly point that the purge happens close to the age of Godfrey. Also the historical comparison to vandals burning of Rome is strong.
4. St. Trina's dress very much resembles the wings of the nascent butterfly, almost the same texture.
5. Almost all of the NPC's present it the story trailer were present in the gameplay trailer as well except for the figure that is second from the right. Also the guy in the golem armour is posed in a way resembling the pose of affected by sleep condition or puppets.
Addendum: This relates to the painting shown in the first gameplay trailer. Nobody seems to talk about it but the pin (or broche) on the cloak of the Painting Dude very much resembles Watchdog's Staff which, in turn resembles Troll's hammer, which is modeled after the Fell God's eye. The Painting Dude might be the creator of blackstone golems, or at least watchdogs and imps.
OMMMMMGG thank you for shouting out centered tarnished. The whole psyche thing works sooo god damn well. Also video is great I think your the only one so far to point out all the symbolisim in the trailer! great work!
Attempt in interprating this trailer through a mythology perspective :
This greek myth is not super famous but I cannot unsee it now... The way DIONYSUS was born twice.
He was first Zagreus (like in Hades yes), born from Persephone and Zeus. But the newborn got eaten by the titans, and Zeus could only save his heart. He "felt in love" with a mortal woman, Semele, and placed the beating heart in her belly so she could make it come to life (again). However, things end tragically as Semele doubted the true identity of Zeus and pushed him to prove his deity. Appearing in god form, his lightning struck down Semele and burnt her house. Once again, he saved the unborn child from destined death... The only thing left was a GOLDEN HAIR, that Zeus used to sew his tigh after placing the embryo in. And later, Dionysus was born "from the tigh of Jupiter".
It's not really a theory, just some symbolism crossroads i assume, but Messmer makes me think of Dionysus a lot. In the mythology, he's a very ambivalent and mysterious character associated with uncanny symbols... I love to think that Messmer is also coming from an impossible union of some kind, and that he is merely a symptom of the things Marika had to do to get such power.
The imagery Elden Ring can deliver and inspire is SO CRAZY, we can feel in every lore element the unfathomable talent of both Miyazaki and Martin...
If anyone read that hope you liked it 😇
I am so glad that you are theorizing that the demigods are born with their greatrunes. I’ve been trying to make sense of it all ever since watching a video from Moxie. She showed a couple different depictions of the Elden Ring, and theorized that Marika reforms the order every so often by removing great runes. I thought maybe that’s why she’s having all these children; to reform the governing order. I mean, when you get to the end of the game, the Elden Ring resides in her body pretty much where her womb is right?
Love this idea
Or, maybe, the birth itself could be her creating a new rune, and if it doesn't work out, it is removed
It appears that some kind of betrayal may be necessary to become a god. For Ranni to "walk the dark path of the empyrean" (perhaps this precedence was set by Marika from the land of Shadow), she must "betray everything, and rid the world of what came before". This might look something like the carnage that we see at the beginning of the trailer. And, of course, she betrays Godwyn. Gowry also implies that the rot goddess would only arise when "nurtured by betrayal". Miquella may well have betrayed Malenia as well by leaving her to defend an empty cocoon.
Hey just FYI there’s a typo in your thumbnail; it’s says “nothing” but that should be spelled as “everything”
I was about to say that too 😂😂
I feel like Marika did the thing where she thought she was saving the world from a great evil without being able to see the full picture, and therefore she actually just made things worse. IE I agree with you, but I think SHE thought she was doing the right thing, or at least a good thing.
something something God Forbid Women Do Anything
Liiiiieeeeesss!
Just found your content. Subbed based on your description of your background knowledge of both creators. Happy to be here.
6:57 I think we are actually seeing the beginning of Elden ring the making of the erdtree fall of the crucible and all
You're one of the few people on this platform that I truly enjoy analyzing/discussing Elden Ring. Mainly because like you mentioned, you are a Miyazaki fan and a George RR Martin fan, just like me. You offer more insight to the community because you truly understand who's heart this piece of art comes from.
Most of these other channels just spew out less than quality speculation to put it plainly. When you, Vaati, Centered and TTA speak of Elden Ring, it's the only opinion I really want to hear and respect.
I believe. That Saint Trina is the altar ego of Miquella, since he was cursed with eternal childhood, developing the ability to influence people in their dreams what is his only way to legitimately influence the world around him
The woman with the mask, kneeling with the other followers of miquella, reminds me of house marai and tanith.
From the latest Japanese interview of Miyazaki, Shadow of the Erdtree is literally that second tree(Shadowtree) that Erdtree is leeching from. Also apparently "gold tree" is used in the trailer in place of just "gold" in English.
I see a lot of folks talking about the trailer like these events are happening now, no the trailer is basically a blast from the past to show what happened just like in the og elden rings cinematic it’s just to catch you up. But it seems like a lot of what is being said is like “oh this is gonna happen then this” when in actuality it’s already done and been over
Agreed, I surmise these events have happened before the Shattering of the Elden Ring
@@JackisaMimic yes I’d have to agree with you
Tying St. Trina's existence to the word Fate is screaming influence of the stars IMO. Those loose Carian ties are coming back!
This is me commenting before having watched the video!
I want to point out a few interesting observations that I made while watching the trailer, and please try not to be too quick to dismiss them:
1) The womb is covered by a cloth resembling a Godskin Robe, and the area is surrounded by a massive gathering of flayed and skinned corpsed - this is the Gloam Eyed laying defeated, while Marika pulls out the strands of the Elden Ring (maybe)
2) I believe that the person who holds up the golden strands is actually Radagon, the form turns masculine and the hair seems more reddish, not just because of the lighting, but its also braided differently to Marika's normal hair, indicating its Radagon - keep in mind that Messmer's Hair indicates lineage related to Radagon and him saying Mother indicates him being related to Marika
3) The massive gathering of corpses seems to be the remains of the great Godskin Hunt of the Gloam Eyed Queen; further supported by the dark, gloamy sky on the other side of the corpse-portal leading to the Lands Between
4) There is a spiral spear that resembles the concept-art of the Godskin Peeler being held by a charred woman at 18:00
5) The armour of the soldiers of Messmer are romanesque or even Spartan or Ancient Greek looking, indicating this to take place thousands of years before the architectural style of even the fortified manor (feudal / medieval era), meaning this is atleast as old as the eternal cities if not older
Just a few observations I made, I know it might or might not be something you spotted! Thanks for reading, anyone!
Saying that the person looks like Radagon is great! I think you just helped me with an upcoming video !
Thank you for sharing!
@@JackisaMimic Np!! So happy you saw this comment, means the world, love your content!
@@JackisaMimic You made some very sharp observations as well, and you calling it an eternal city is spot on!
I also guess this to take place somewhere in a classical period, much like the romanesque eternal cities of the lands between, but some architecture seems to indicate it being even older, like the Babylonian-esque gates seen in the gameplay reveal trailer
I get a lot of comments and I try to read as many as I can, sometimes I read a long comment but I only really see one things. Im sorry if you shared something insightful and I miss it!
@@aesonone I agree with this! Fret not, I am glad to know I am not alone at all!
Great video Jack, you made a lot of connections that I missed. About the Shadow - it is the part of ourselves that we repress due to it being potentially destructive but repression of the Shadow causes it to come out in undesirable ways if I remember Jung correctly. The ultimate goal for Jung and true psychological health was when a person "integrated" their Shadow Self with their Waking Mind. This leads me to believe that the DLC will have us lifting the veils over the Shadow Lands to "integrate" it with the Lands Between Proper while Messmer attempts to stop us. I'm still working through your video so perhaps you say exactly this later on in it, I'm just 5 minutes into it. Regardless, great work!
I'm starting to think the deathbed companions might have been in the realm of shadow and are the lands Fia was chased from when Grace returned to her
8:43 When I see the sunset through pile of bodies when Marina is holding up the gold threads… it does look like the sunsets in the lands between, but it is also reminding me of the Elden Beast’s arena. What if she is summoning it/activating it to establish her order?
I’ve always believed the seal on the erdtree opening is an artistic representation of the Primeval current. Basically the transfer of energy through the universe of Elden ring. And those who’ve actually seen it have gone mad bc the truth is sinister, that the erdtree and all other erdtree as exist as a way to transfer some sort of energy to a being. So basically the erdtree is a parasite
Yea yes yes and yes
Man I wouldn't want to be a ginger since Marika and her gang were purging anyone of the sort....
i’m speculating that mesmer’s purge “without grace or honour” was directed at the giant’s flame, the crucible, and probably other things that the golden order deemed unfit or ugly or dangerous, like how the giants flame could destroy the erdtree
This game has layers like an onion
I’m also speculating that marika had an affair with something to make Mesmer… i wonder what it was…
Marika also won the war against the house of the moon by seducing renala and then breaking her heart leaving her in the sorry state we all know. So i think in the beginning miquella spoke of, marika seduced someone in order to gestate that golden substance in their womb. I don't think she was seduced. As for the betrayal, she must have betrayed that person somehow and also i think those piles of bodies are from the war you see later in the trailer. She killed multitudes to pile them up and create the erdtree.
Isn’t miquella covered in those strands in the painting of mohg
the tarnished archeologist (i think was the channel's name) had a very convincing video about the erdtree taking over the great tree by grafting or something akin to it. grafting as in the real plant grafting as opposed to the in game bodypart grafting
Could the betrayel be talking about how she betrayed maliketh?
The scene of the bodies and the golden light with marika in the middle invoke this scene in berserk where Griffith's vision of a castle on the distance is shown to him by one of the god hands As he stumbles on a mountain of bodies to reach it. Most don't notice you can hear the elden beast crashing infront of marika as its ost plays
"The primordial form of the Erdtree is close in nature to life itself, and this spear, modeled on its crucible, is imbued with ancient holy essence"
"Nobles are the most ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology. Not unlike the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form."
I don't think the Crucible was an actual tree or something physical, but some sorte of archetypal tree of life that Crucible Knights believed in. Marika probably exploited their faith with the promise of bringing a physical treeo of life into the world.
I might not always agree with you, but I love your videos to bits. Thank you, Jack.
You don't have to agree with me, as long as you are entertained that is all that matters! Happy you enjoy the videos!
Though I've seen you previous rant about Malenia and Miquella and found it very interesting and compelling I think FSoft trailers are usually less opaque than the lore. The trailers usually are more direct and try to explain the tip of the iceberg directly with images and a narrator. So I think this trailer is no different. I think the first image of Marika holding the the runes is merely her feeding the Erdtree with the runes from the Erdtree burial people whilst she is imprisoned inside the tree during the time the player completes the story of the base game. So on that line the dlc happens before completing the main story.
hey fam! actually I love that someone made this approach.
I have a theory I've been working on form months. but first let me give you my perspective on what It could be referred to on the betrayal part.
In order to start I need to give a bit of context and it is that Marika planned everything all along to make sure that we Tarnished had a standing chance to defeat the Greater Will. If you think asbout it, the whole game is just an Isekai.
So back to it... Marika is **seduced** by the Grater Will. Just as someone selling their soul to the devil, Marika had something she needed/wanted from The Grater Will. So as she agreed, The Greater Will **betrayed** her. The Crucible became deminished by the Golden Order and so any form of the crucible will be tagged as "cursed". So it happened to her twin children Mohg and Morgot. The omen babies were basically tortured and killed by the horns removal. Since these twins were "royalty" they were simply forced to be removed from the eyes of everyone else. I honestly think that at this point, Marika already had an idea of the manipulation of the Greater Will and this could've been added tot he list of factors that made her start planning everything to the point of the Shattering.
now the "Affair" part could be the close relation between Marika and the Greater Will. Such relationship could be not form love to each other but how both how such was referring to how much they needed something from each other.
As the trailer says Gold was born. The golden Order actually started at that point. With Marika leading but just becoming a puppet for the Greater Will itself. Then Shadows arose. She knowing about the true intentions of the Greater Will, would seek shadows to hide her own as well. How do we know she was preparing for such event? for such Tarnished to free her people from her own mistakes?
"In Marika's own words. The Erdtree governs all. The choice is thine. Become one with the Order. Or divest thyself of it. To wallow at the fringes; a powerless upstart."
Everything is soooo messed up, that now nothing can be the way it was before. She has given everything on the name of The Order and The Greater Will. She can't beat it.
So... whatever is the fate of the Lands Between, she can only trust you will make the right choice.
Marika was just another living being seeking for answers, seduced by a power beyond her comprehension like any of us could had been. Made mistakes and learned from them. To become the ultimate force of sacrifice so you could have the strength to win such silent war.
Anyways there is more to it but hope this can help to any other idea you may have XD
Cheers and you have a new sub!
On the whole I agree with your interpretation - the events of the world are manipulated in order for our specific Tarnished to succeed. I say this in a lot of my videos, its my favorite line from GRRM's Fevre Dream - "Days and years are alike to one who lives the life eternal."
Well, if Marika the Eternal hatched up a scheme you can bet it would be a long time coming.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and subscribing, I hope you enjoy my previous videos and my upcoming ones!
@@JackisaMimic Yep! XD I got a nice playlist to enjoy while I work now XD It realy made me feel I was not alone in the whole "Marika is not the bad one" concept. I will definitely pay attention. on each one of them.
One last thing though. Since I am just starting the journey on your channel I can't say if you have talked about it but I have noticed no one has ever talked about the alliance between Godrick and Mohg/Varré. Given that there is a bloodrose on Haight Fortress as well as a Godrick knight with a blood ash of war. Sounds like they both were cooking something. I have my own thoughts on it but just kinda wanted to point you on that direction if you haven't and see what you can figure out XD Or I can share it as well if you want to.
Thanks again fam!
I figured that the Bloodknight at Fort Haight left Godrick’s employ after being swayed to the side of blood. Varre explicitly tells us to kill Godrick, so if there was an alliance it’s on very shaky ground.
@@JackisaMimic oh that's the trick tho XD
Godrick is not a very smart one. Yet he had a Scion ready awaiting for you on the Church of Anticipation. There has to be someone behind it right?
What if it was Varré the whole time? what if he and Marika are the only 4th wall breakers knowing that you will come. Yet since Varré knows this ,could explain why he kills your Maiden at the church. Could also explain how conviniently he is awaiting you on Limgrave first thing you see. And last but not least, Varré also understands there are infinite amount of realms. Hence you go into another realm to hunt other Tarnished. He know his sole objective is to deviate you from the path of grace.
Think about it as an Isekai. A japanese concept of a regular human being been teleported to another world for X reason. That is exactly what happens to us as players. Varré and Marika do not know what is beyond that Fog but they know someone is coming. Just look again at the end of the first cutscene. A lifeless body on the ground been touched by Grace. That little light is you giving back the life to the Tarnished you will become in the game. "Arise ye Tarnished. Ye dead, who yet live." and then you misteriously appear in a Church out of nowhere. Curious how the in game Tarnished actually arrive on boats and such according to the map pictures but... you don't.
Now that been said. We know Godrick thinks he deserves all. He is the true heir. But he was humiliated by Malenia. So what if Varré knew about this and... in order to fulfill Mohg's plans requests information in exchange of protection. The location of Miquella as Gordirck desires retaliation in exchange of letting Godrick know someone is coming and Godrick will have the advantage. But little did they knew Marika was aware of this. So... she had someone ready. In the end, yes. Mohg/Varré do not care whatever happens to Godrick. They used him for one thing and they got what they needed. Whatever happens to him is irrelevant. They need you. Or at least Varré does.
Sorry for the long reply but I promise this is the last thing. In order to understand Melina's nature we need to focus on the end of the game. You see, Roderika and the Blacksmith do have their memories affected because of the Gian'ts fire consuming the Erdtree hence the Round Table hold. Kind of weird that Melina can't remember poop and has all her body burnt. Gloamed eye Queen sealed away in order to help you on your path by Marika. This queen is well know to have been defeated by Marika. Could this maybe lead to that "body]" from which the golden strings or runes are pulled out on the last trailer as Melina states she was borned at the foot of the Erdtree. so Could explain 2 things as a theory of course. One, Melina (Gloamed Eye Queen) was defeated and her *runes* removed when the Erdtree is created. Then reborned there (timeline unknown) as she is the only one with the weilding power of using *runes* to turn them in strength.
Ok finished. Please feel free to use any of this on whatever material you want to create. Weather if I get credit or not is irrelevant but I think it would be very interesting to see your point of view even if you disagree on this or partially do. Again feel free to do whatever you want with all this theory XD
Thank you so much for taking your time on this convo fam!
@@JackisaMimic brother I made a crazy discovery! Look at the picture of Messmer sitting on the throne an the veil of shadows on his back. I believe the is the title picture of the DLC. And then look for the Caduceus symbol. Tell me what do you see :v
I think it looks like an eye socket, I don't see anything anatomically suggesting it's a p*ssy, there would be legs in the way if it were. I see just left of her hand is the shape of a cheekbone, there is whiter flesh under the fold when she takes her hand out, looks like the white of an eye, to the right of the opening is a curved brow. Not to mention the stitch pattern on the skin itself, eye's get sown shut in this world, not p*ssies. She is either unsealing the eye or robbing someone of grace, or both.(?) I know the discourse rn is all about how Marika acts like someone who experienced the trauma of a miscarried or stillborn child, and I agree with that but I think it's creating a bit of a bias in how this trailer scene is being interpreted. The Mountain of corpses being a gate to her golden world is very much a direct nod to Berzerk (just read it or don't @ me) when Griffith is being shown the vision of his ideal kingdom and then shown the pile of corpses it takes to achieve his fate. I think the question being answered in this trailer is how did Marika become a God? She defeated this being who had an eye sealed with golden thread. The corpses are either her comrades who followed her in her war to become Queen, or more likely a premonition of the spoils of the wars to come. I think since prophets who glimpse the tree burning are blindfolded, guilty get their eyes poked out by thorns, Hyetta eating eyes just to make her own blindfolded eyes burn with the light of the frenzied flame, clearly we're being told that sealing or blinding eyes play a pivotal role in discerning fate. So what she is doing in this trailer then is unsealing the fate of a defeated foe, possibly a Felled God of the Flame of Ruin, by opening the seam of the stitched eye, and then taking those strands to the gate and bending it to make it her own fate.
You can maybe even see a nostril creeping into view underneath her hand.
*Eight confirmed children, including the ones Radagon had with Renalla. She with Godfrey allegedly had three, Radagon and Ranalla had 3, and then she and Radagon as one produced 2.
If people are right about Melina and Messmer, then that brings the number to 10 confirmed children. And thats not counting the fact that, allegedly, the beheaded demogods in the 7 mausoleums are her 'unwanted' (likely illegitimate) children rather than being grandchildren.
Working overtime
So hyped. have you seen Angelofthepast and his theoy explaining great questions. Godwyn and Merikas ties etc that seem to be coming to fruition a bit
I watch other lore RUclipsrs now and think, "Yeah maybe buuut...have you heard of Jack is a Mimic?"
Couldn't wait to hear your take after seeing the trailer. I'm now doing a lore playthrough like I'm Batman, or a detective.
Pay attention to the locations of butterflies and lilies. I didn't mention it in this video (I forgot) but the Exiled Soldiers, who are closely related to the Sun Realm Banished Knights, drop the Smoldering Butterfly which is presumably Messmer's butterfly.
@@JackisaMimic I definitely do ahaha, I throw down a message at each Trina Lily "seek sleep", I'll watch a lot more for butterflies 🤔
I think the tree we're looking at in the Land of Shadow is the Crucible tree or ancient Erdtree. The power dripping down could be that old life giving sap. Way before everything's veiled and split. Much more arboreal but visibly burnt as a price of war.
i’ve this ABSOLUTELY BATSHIT OFF THE WALL theory regarding the different colours of Gold mentioned in the lore, but also tying into the concept of Buds, like Millicent, and meiosis vs mitosis.
Buds being offshoot branches or seperate trees so to speak and people of great power or EMPYREANS are capable of creation of these through MITOSIS with the blobby white bubble dudes marking the start of this process like they are drawn to it’s making
ages pass, the dragons still doing their thing, Elden John figures out the deal with trees, the uld ruins sink into the ground either naturally or in battles between the descendants of the peoples of man and the descendants of the beasts as time passes. so much time passes. eventually the numen, the oldest of the peoples of man, gives birth to a Woman of great power and potential, Marika.
there is a RED GOLD of the erdtree in the time of an earlier age when Marika unified the world and came to some form of peace with the remaining wild dragons that still tormented all.
it is likely to me this is the earlier form of the elden ring with ties to the red lighting of ancient dragons and the power of placidusax and his god when they existed, the wild and twisted form we see present at Farum Azula
in my head this is instance of the first budding for Marika, representing mitosis. The Mother cell splits into daughter cells in nature and we see this in Millicent and her 3 sisters coming from Melania, divesting themselves of unnecessary elements that eventually take on their own individual life and being
what if the same happened FROM Marika and we got The Snow Witch?? (batshit i know but i think Marika somehow being an ancestor/lost relative of Renalla is interesting and would be cool to see to me cause Ranni is Empyrean too, The Gloam Eyed Queen springs to mind as one of these buds, Maliketh being the first Shadow plucked from the order to fuel grace and PROOF of the sealing process, and Radagon ,possibly being the last two buds.
later??, we have marika? form a golden order that is probably a form of melding between GOLD and SILVER through her ties to the Nox that is ALLOYED GOLD, buried them for not a sin they committed against her but FOR her? her power grew too great and she split it up to seal it, Like Maliketh does??
for me in my headcannon Mesmer is a throwback to the ancient times, an illegitimate child of Marika and her bud Radagon before their marriage when she was still with Godfrey. Marika sends Radagon away to fight the Liurnian Wars as he was mad that their child was used as an experiment and went mad with fervour and overzealousness and is a form of sealing the power of Eiglay, The Ancient Dragons, The Fell God of the Giants and potentially other discarded elements of power once capable of extending influence across the lands between (similar to how Maliketh seals DD) to negate their presence in the order of things so Marika can maintain her position as God
Radagon goes off and falls for Renalla cause he mad and they have children as we all know but Renalla got ties to Marika and they spawn an Empyrean
then comes the shattering? where Radagon fits i cannot place chronologically despite my efforts cause its fromsoft and we probably won’t even get 100% clarity from the DLC…. however.. Radagon despised the gods but couldn’t do shit so he returned to Marika
Radagon hoped to somehow bring about the return of the gloam eyed queen through guiding mikella to rebel against marika through his knowledge of the Elden Ring and eventually steers him towards PURPLE GOLD, and the eventual Budding of Miquella into St Trina to usurp marika and the greater wills eternal subjugation of the lands between, which we will see in SotE? Purple gold itself is not mentioned in ER but everything else has ties to alchemy and metals, and we hear of 3 other forms of the golden order through item text soooo
Idk if this is a compliment but you are the preston jacobs of elden ring 😂😂 and i love his wacky theories
You have rapidly become my favorite Lore'ist, keep up the great work Jack!
I don't know if the purge could have happened after the Night of Black Knives because this seems about Marika's ascension to godhood and the creation of the Golden Order itself, a long, long time before the Night of the Black Knives. Messmer's purge seems to take place soon after Marika's ascension and thus should be located very early in the timeline, at least before the war against the Giants.
This obviously creates some apparent inconsistencies, because Messmer is purging Omens and Crucible-related stuff roughly in the same age as Godfrey and his Crucible Knights. How this would work is anyone's guess, and I assume we'll have to wait for the DLC to be out in order start understanding things properly.
My current interpretation however is that the first half of the trailer presents Marika's ascension to godhood, and how she took the pre-existing Crucible of Life (a much older structure, which might have been an ancient tree or a crater in the ground, we're never quite told) and started transforming it into the modern Erdtree. Golden trees seem to require actual flesh and blood to grow, not so much because of Erdtree burial but because of the pots near Minor Erdtrees and the fact that the Haligtree had to be fueled by Miquella's own blood and body. It's quite possible that creating the Erdtree demanded an even greater sacrifice in lives, one that Marika obtained by massacring a huge amount of people through her (firstborn?) son Messmer, starting from all the people she would have gladly done without (and that's why Omens seem to have been particularly targeted in this purge to fuel the Erdtree). This fact was obviously erased from history because of how unsavory it was.
I also have a little pet theory with Messmer. Marika had to obtain the Elden Ring from somewhere, a previous deity that held the great rune within her before Marika. So, what if, through seduction and betrayal, that Marika usurped the divinity of Placidusax's deity, previous god of the Elden Ring with an associated Elden Lord in Placidusax, the golden dragon, and Messmer is the half-Numen, half-Dragon offspring of Marika's plots to obtain the Elden Ring from the corpse of the previous god? Messmer's draconic features would then be a constant symbol of Marika's past shady deals, and so it makes sense that Messmer has been hidden as well from the world, serving as jailor of this parallel prison dimension made to hide Marika's bloody ascension to power?
The gold dripping from the tree above messmer pooks like a dripping miquellas rune
All hail Jack is a Mimic, the Preston Jacobs of Elden Ring..
The highest of praise
While this sort of speculation gets too far-fetched for me at times, as a huge fan of A Song of Ice and Fire, I love the parallels you’re drawing.
Take a sub! Great work!
Do you watch ASOIAF lore videos? You mention them a lot and I like watching theories of both universes too
Of course! In fact, many of my Elden Ring theories come from years of watching ASOIAF videos and participating on various forums. My favorite theorist is Preston Jacobs. My Miquella theories are derived from his Time Traveling Bran theories.
It's really really hard to find that supposedly famous quote which says something like "childbirth is a woman's battlefield". But this idea is recalled indirectly all throughout ASoIaF, assuredly.
The closest thing I could find is in ACoK Catelyn VI:
"Children are a battle of a different sort." Catelyn started across the yard. "A battle without banners or warhorns, but no less fierce. Carrying a child, bringing it into the world . . . your mother will have told you of the pain . . ."
Man, that almost divine sounding track that plays during Miquella's part of the trailer... imagine this is his boss music. When will it play otherwise? Or did they compose this piece only for this trailer and nothing else? It's boss music for sure.
Your theory about Godwyn makes me wonder if Messmer might be partly dragon or perhaps, the origin of Dragon Communion. The latter is more probable, I think... Aside from that, it looks like Marika is pulling the strands from something wrapped in Godskin Swaddling Cloth. It also looks, to me, that it's possible that the woman on the battlefield, holding the spiral-shaped spear may be the Gloam-Eyed Queen. There's no way to know just yet, but hey, pulling strands from ambiguous sources is seems appropriate, given the first moments of the trailer, haha.
Doh, you stole some of the thoughts I’ve been having right out of me head your clever, clever man!!
Brilliant work as always, even when we are on the same wavelength I’ve come to trust you’ll always lend insight and perspective that I would never have drawn myself.
Absolutely top of your game, good lad.
It’s a 10/10 from me(h)!!
The only thing I missed was the divine uterus. I’m ashamed to have forgotten!
@@JackisaMimic ashamed and shamedful 😂🤣😂🤣😂
@@JackisaMimic how could you forget the uterus when it bloody gestated you?! Ungrateful sorry sod 🤣🤣😂🤣
@@JackisaMimicthis sounds so funny out of context
Me personally, I actually feel as though Marika is the parallel to Griffith in Elden Ring in terms of character and actions. Seduction and betrayal mark her ascension to godhood, as well as Griffith, for their dream of a kingdom. Although in Marika’s case we don’t know who was seduced or betrayed, but we can presume that the Land of Shadow as a whole, and their Divine figures, would fit the bill. Griffiths relationship to Guts before the eclipse is much like Marikas relationship to her shadow Maliketh, who wears armor mimicking Guts’ berserk armor, and was also betrayed in the end. In the Shadow of the Erdtree story trailer it is implied that the mountain of corpses she walks over and is surrounded by, was necessary for her ascent. Similar to the vision Griffith had while talking to the godhand. So I believe these parallels lie more so in Marikas origin, and the origin of the golden order, which we don’t know a great deal about so this is mostly speculation on my part, but my money is on Marika being the true story parallel for Griffith. also the split of realms, the creation of the Land of Shadow/the Lands Between, may have a juxtaposing parallel with Griffiths release of the world tree, bringing the realms together. the base of the corpse tree in the shadow realm is also reminiscent of the base of world tree, with the split in the middle leading to the Lands Between
I think the shadow tree is what the erdtree actually looks like, and marika uses this thread magic thing to cover it up and make it look gold. I think that she tried to have one erdtree (like all those statues with the monk holding a sapling in Leyndell), like one order, but the crucible great tree started to keep growing and over take the erdtree. Her solution was to use Mesmer to burn it all down and kill the crucible, culture, tree and all. So she now has to use a fake illusory gold tree. This is why leyndell has ash, and Volcano Manor has the burning picture of the tree.
I am starting to theorize that Mesmer is the son of Radagon/Marika and the GEQ, and so is Godwyn. And that GEQ is not humanoid but serpentine, scaley, draconic, etc. Which is why Godwyns body turns into a sea-serpent, and why mesmer has these snake nipples. I also think that the corpse below stormveil is now GEQ. The texture of it and the shape of where the eyes would be look very similar to what we see Marika put her hist into and pull out gold threads.
Mesmer doesn't know he is son of GEQ and just thinks he is son of Marika. She gets him to kill the crucible because it is interfering with her one tree, one order plan. I can't tell what the timeline is, but I think the shadowland was created when destined death was removed. And so she was able to use the crucible in the lands between to stop the fire giants, all while secretly the larger part of the culture was being destroyed in the veil.
Amazing video again, favourite Elden Ring channel 🙏
No better way to end the day than watching on of your videos buddy. Was excited to hear another trailer for the DLC to release and I was interested to hear your input on it
Following the Godwyn video I've got a couple of crackpot theories brewing in my head. What if Marika co-opted the Night of the Black Knives with Ranni and possibly even Miquella. My argument is that in the item description for the Black Knive assassin's armor set states that these women had "close-ties" with Marika. Second, I found it quite odd that not once in the game that it was said that Marika demonstrated grief at the loss of Godwyn. It's even more odd that when told about the cocoon in Mohgwyn Palace, Gideon says "Perhaps the Queen's sorrow was justified". Why was her grief directed at Miquella ?(Not my theory, this is from Tarnished Archaeologist)Perhaps as a way to ensure that the Lands Between continues to prosper Marika wanted to usher in a new age by having Miquella succeed her. Since the life giving amber that once dripped from the Erdtree no longer does so. This can be attributed to the fact that the Erdtree was burned, presumably by Messmer which is why all idols of snakes are considered traitors to the Erdtree. (Now for my tinfoil hat speculation)and in order for Miquella to succeed Marika, Miquella would have to be reborn in some way as Godwyn, but the NOTBK went terribly wrong and to Marikas dismay not only was her successor missing and presumably dead, the child who she had to sacrifice to do so is now practically a comatose clam. I don't believe Marika is this ruthless, or callous person but one who is willing to fully dedicate themselves to ensure that the actions taken are done in the best interest of everyone, even if it meant the murder of her son
Hope you find this useful
And I hope that more people will eventually find this gem of a channel
Keep doing what you're doing^^
Thanks for the kind words of support and for sharing your thoughts! One thing I just realized this morning was that although Marika and BKAs have "close ties" those don't indicate they were allies or friends. They could have close ties and hate each other, so the idea that Marika co-opted the NOBK seems entirely possible, and that Miquella and Marika's goals could be tightly interwoven.
@@JackisaMimicit's much appreciated to hear ur input ! And seeing that ur also interested in George RR Martins ASOAIF series,. I see a bit similarities between Asshai and the Land of Shadow, Id like to hear ur thoughts on it
Man you KNOW I’m hoping this place is supposed to be Asshai. Shadow of the Erdtree is the closest thing to TWOW or ADOS we may ever get. One of the reasons I got into doing Elden Ring content is because I want to use it to deduce ASOIAF
First we figure out Elden Ring, then we figure out ASOIAF. This is only the beginning 😎
@@JackisaMimic sooner or later George will finish cooking...I think, regardless I see both places are home to arcane and esoteric knowledge and if where the inhabitants wear face coverings i.e mask, its a rather somber place. Theres an interesting area in the dlc trailer that shows footage of our character fighting this red dancer in this area surrounded by what it seems broken ships and flowers and there appears to be a river in it. Possible reference to Stygai ?
Andariel, Maiden of Anguish from Diablo 4. She starts walking around crucified but then breaks out with blazing red hair, and starts using many binding attacks, like she wants you to know how it feels to be crucified. It makes me feel like Marika is the mother of truth, the formless mother that craves a wound. Between being numen and having churches with her crucified statues, lead me to believe she is the leader of the solitary ascetics mentioned on the briar set, guilty in the lands between for what Marika did, but she still has her faithful.
I made a timeline once and landed on the golden order not being created until after Radagon goes back to Leyndel, with intelligence learned from Renalla to create the golden order fundamentals, which I think require intelligence. But up until the golden order is something I've been calling the erdtree faithful, after the trailer mentioned them. I think Marika was in control of this order that was still very much golden and probably much more beautiful, with the erdtree in its prime form actually blessing the lands with a giant form of the incantation, blessing of the erdtree. This was how Marika and her people would cheat death, but with death still in the world. Their health would regenerate like the incantation. But after something happened(I presume godwyns death) the tree lost its bountiful rays, that used to give the gentle warmth of the sun. This could have affected Marikas health too, causing her to retaliate(law of causality) and learn how, through abandoning blind faith and understanding the proper way, go back to her being the only god(law of regression). Knowing Renalla is the next candidate for god, expescially after losing 2 wars to her while needing to prove she can maintain order, instead goes undercover as Radagon to learn from Renalla, the intelligence needed to be complete. Once back at Leyndell, this is where I think they both shatter the ring to pluck death to seal, and have Radagon repair it to create a new order, the golden order. If this is true, we the tarnsihed are most likely the ones who helped Marika burn the erdtree the first time, I'd even wager Radagon remembers us and hates us for it, along with the reason for torrent being burnt. It reminds me of an armored core pilot named Iguazu. Dude says something like, I died and became a part of this monster, just so I can fight you. The mercenary who had it all
Your lore seems to fit both of the creators vision
Probably the best breakdown I've seen so far! Great job!
We don't know what she did....but it sure as hell looked like it needed to happen.
The Greater Will is the good guy after all so if he is guiding this then my tarnished shall follow.
I'm pretty certain that's miquella's haligtree wrapping around the erdtree?
Go look at a silhouette of the halig tree. The outer unkempt twigs look so similar.
So, the armors that we've seen for the DLC are giving some major Roman/Hellenic vibes, between the spear and shield, the marching in very clearly Roman fashion, the masks could be homage to their shared love of the human form... I'm wondering if we're not going to be getting some Ancient Dynasty lore out of this DLC after all.
Worth noting about Mesmer and his snake connections; snakes are often tied to fertility gods in our own world (I don't know why, the ancients were just freaky, I guess?), so him being the offspring of Marika + either a Dragon or Snake god could be a fascinating juxtaposition to the current order. We know there is a seduction (possibly Marika and the Serpent to get Mesmer? This would also explain why Rykard's alliance with the Serpent was considered such a major blasphemy.) and a betrayal, which I think may be Marika using Mesmer to wage a near-genocidal war against either the previous Order of Death or against the Serpent, who could possibly be the god of the Ancient Dynasty. Alternatively, the narrator is a NPC who sees Mesmer, son of the Serpent, betraying his people and his dynasty. The thing about wiping out an entire civilization is that inevitably, you're going to miss something, hence their architecture and relics still being in the Lands Between.
This is giving me hope in Miquella being an ally to the Tarnished rather than another Demigod to be slain. His goals of curing Malenia and forging an Order without Mother-Father-dearest's contradictions. Given the St. Trina alternate identity, I conclude that Miquella is supposed to be the harsh mirror to Marika/Radagon. He's supposed to be the savior archetype, taking the current Order and finding all it's flaws so he can fix them.
But to quickly say, Jack, even if I disagree with your take, you make it incredibly entertaining and high value in production that I can't help but enjoy it regardless. I look forward to seeing the upcoming videos, because those theories sound wild and I am here for it!
Separating the erdtree and the great tree as two different entities could help here, the great tree was before the erdtree and marika took over it to turn it into erdtree. There used to be a golden sap leaking from the great tree. I believe tarnished archeologist had a theory about this.
So i just beat my first playthrough this past February but haven't picked an ending because I'm the dlc will give me some way to make roderika, and maybe even hewg, not stay in the roundtable hold and burn up. I have the death rune and ranni ending accesible to me, but from what I've seen and can tell from the trailer and if it's possible, I'm siding with the gloameyed queen or maybe miquela/st trina depending on his true intentions, and then picking fia's ending or ranni's ending afterwards, unless i can save roderika and hewg but need a different ending.
I know this goes against everything that we know, but it is stated pretty directly in the transcript from the first trailer for the DLC that Miquella divested himself of his flesh, his strength, his lineage, of all the things of his that are golden. From this statement, it appears to be possibly claiming that Miquella's lineage is golden. That goes against everything we've been told about his lineage, considering that the golden lineage is said to be the offspring of Godfrey, and not Radagon, but then again, Radagon is Marika.
By the way, does the fact that Radagon is Marika, and that the golden lineage is the offspring of Godfrey and Marika, and presumably not Radagon imply that Radagon did not become Marika until after the golden lineage came to be?
Edit: Unless Radagon and Marika were able to conceive before even the golden lineage. I know your thoughts about the timeline of Miquella and Malenia's origin, Jack.
Another interpretation of that line from the first DLC trailer is that besides his flesh, his strength, and his lineage, he divested himself of all he was that was golden, meaning anything that made him a demigod or that connected him to the Golden Order.
Hmm
A few dissociated thoughts:
1. The war against the giants happened at the birth of the Erdtree. This was when the land of shadow and the lands between were one land.
2. Was the same true of the Liurnian Wars? Did they happen while the lands were all one?
3. I've often thought that the (re)union of Marika and Radagon was the birth of the Golden Order. Radagon is closely associated with Golden Order Fundamentalism. But GOF was not conceived of until after his union with Rennala, when he learned to be a scholar. GOF spells require equal Faith + Intelligence.
4. Maybe Golden Order Fundamentalism thus is a reactionary look back towards the Fundamentals of the Golden Order, but shouldn't be construed with the Golden Order itself, which was "simply" the removal of DD from the Elden Ring. IRL, Fundamentalist Christianity is a reactionary look back at Christianity before Catholicism, going back to the "fundamentals" of the bible. But it would be wrong to call primordial Christianity "fundamentalist".
5. So we have a timeline that looks something like:
a. Lands connected. Greattree/crucible time. No one single ruler/civilization: Dragons, Giants, Carians, Eternal Cities, etc etc etc all live under different orders. Many gods: Fell god, Deathrite Bird God, Rot God, etc etc. Maybe at this time the Elden Ring exists, but as simply one of the many orders, that of the Dragons/Sun Realm/Beast Men.
b. Marika + Godfrey team up. Union of Numen/Eternal Cities + Crucible/Warrior culture. They begin conquering all these lands. They take the Great Tree (from Godfrey's people?). They take the Elden Ring from the Dragons after they are conquered. They merge these ideals into the Erdtree. Radagon marries Rennala, merge the ideals of the moon into the Golden Order. Mirial at the Church of Vows makes it *very* explicit that the Golden Order is maleable and open to new ideals being integrated into it.
c. However, they reject other ideals. The fire of the giants is a danger to the new Erdtree, so is all but extinguished. The Rot is sealed away in its lake underground. The godslayers are doing their work, slaying as many of the smaller gods, unknown to us now, as they can. The bodies we see in this trailer are the many dead from these many wars (including the Liurnian ones).
d. At some point during all of this, the original Great Tree is burned, the Erdtree is birthed in rays of gold, and the lands of the Numen become the Shadow Realm, cast into shadow and forgotten by all in the Lands Between. This requires a betrayal: betraying the Gloam Eyed Queen, removing Destined Death from the Elden Ring to create the original Golden Order.
e. My guess is that Messmer & Melina are twins, children of Marika & Godfrey. Melina as we know her is what remains of the GEQ after she was used unwittingly as the Kindling Maiden to burn the Great Tree with her brother's flame-the betrayal of the only child (at this point) that could succeed Marika. Mariika removes the very ideal of succession from the Elden Ring when DD is removed and she becomes Eternal.
f. Messmer, who wields a flame that could endanger the Erdtree, is locked in the Shadow Realm upon its creation. Another betrayal, this time of the child whose bloody burning wrath was used to burn the previous orders in order to make way for the new.
g. The Golden Order is created. The lands between exist in beautiful Golden peace. The Shadow Realms exist in a state of constant torment, tyranny, and war, having been given up for Messmer to rule over in his twisted way.
I think your timeline looks solid to me. Have you considered making your own videos? These ideas and how you piece them together appear cohesive at first glance.
My ONLY push back is I think Golden Order Fundamentalism was developed prior to Radagon becoming second Elden Lord, and that Miquella's gifts of Discus and Triple Rings to his father were attempts to "reteach" him of the process of learning the truth.
But that is for ANOTHER video when I can get to it. Radagon's story is so rich and complex but masterfully hidden, perhaps I am just seeing shadows ;)
@@JackisaMimic Thank you Jack! I actually have considered making videos, but I know from my days podcasting that right now I don't really have the time/energy for content creation. I will instead enjoy posting into the youtube void :)
It's funny, the thing you push back on was the thing I thought was most accepted! I am very curious how you think about Radagon, the *when*s of Radagon's story are very opaque to me.
I am very much looking forward to the spaceships, btw. Have you read The Book of the New Sun? The more I think about outer gods, the more I think about Wolfe rather Lovecraft. And we know Martin is a fan. There is something very "dying earth" genre about the way that Elden Ring discusses the stars, other lands, outer gods, etc.
Golden Order has always existed (even during Placidusax), it’s the Golden Order Fundamentalist that it’s credited to Radagon, after leaving Liurnia, and returning to Leyndell.
Think of it as GO how reality works, and GOF as the study of how it works
@@EldenRingBuildsArchive I think this is exactly what Marika / the Golden Order want you to think. But the reality is that in the past there were a multitude of orders co-existing. Maybe the Golden Order was one of them (although I suspect we'll see that the Golden order is actually the fusing of several, while also the expulsion of a core element). But the idea that the Golden Order rules over all is essentially what the Golden Order is. But it's not always been a fundamental truth. It made itself one through Marika's actions that we'll learn about in the DLC.
sorry, long comment, but these were my thoughts as I went through the video
It makes sense with the narration, but it is confusing to place the beginning of the trailer with Marika as pre-golden order. IF where Marika is standing is in the Shadow Realm, as the scene seems to show, it should be after the Erdtree's first burning at the hands of Messmer. And, under Godfrey's rule the snake was already a traitor, which means Messmer burned the Erdtree long before Radagon was ever in the picture officially. But if Messmer calls Marika "Mother", has Radagon's trademark red locks, and his name roughly fits with Malenia/Miquella, it seems like Radagon would be his father. Which is possible but seems... odd. I've wondered if maybe Radagon is the son of a Marika-Messmer relationship, and THAT was the affair in question, while she was with Godfrey. But then the names don't fit, and though it'd explain Radagon not liking his red hair because it means traitor snake man Messmer is his Brother-Dad, that contradicts Radagon not liking it because it means he's related to the giants. Which COULD work if Messmer had red hair because of some giant lineage, but that's getting rather forced and convoluted. It makes more sense that Messmer is another Marika/Radagon child, who is a probably a psychopath because of the inbreeding.
At the same time though, placing Radagon with Marika pre-God-Queenhood to have Messmer, which Marika then WAY LATER makes an ideological sacrifice out of (by either encouraging him to burn the Erdtree, or he just did that on his own because he's nuts and Marika used the opportunity to consolidate power), and then again WAY LATER hooks back up with Radagon does _work,_ but again, does not sound right.
I'd also say at 4:45 is less birth, more abortion. Maybe something like GEQ was doing a kinda 'gestation' of a rune (of death, perhaps). Or, given she was a 'Queen', maybe she was housing the full Elden Ring in this way.
On the Jungian shadow, repression (or 'veiling' in the game's parlance) is definitely not ideal. I would hope this is part of what you're trying to say, but you made it sound like a good thing. You can see pretty clear allusions to shadow selves with Godfrey/Serosh integration (more Freudian), enabling them to rule. Conversely, with Marika's hiding the Shadow Realm and persecuting Omen, this inability to reconcile things as they are and how they ought to be is repression of the shadow. Being unable to stop Radagon from repairing the Elden Ring also looks like Marika basically going too far with integration, being overwhelmed by her shadow. Mari-Gon does diverge from this model plenty though, they're more like a Daoist duality heading a Christian-style faith in a pseudo-pantheistic universe governed by Shinto gods. So, good luck disentangling that one.
I don't think that Messmer's war can possibly be after the Night of the Black Knives, because that was what started the Shattering. Radagon is necessarily already in the picture at the Shattering, since he kinda has to be there to repair the ER while Marika is trying to shatter it. And, this war with Messmer is definitely implied to be what makes snakes so reviled during Godfrey's reign, long before.
Can't wait for Miquella to pull a griffith because he only went to the realm of shadow realizing he needed it for the roots of his Heligtree
I still think that the gore on the stairs Marika is walking on is the connected to the Formless mother or something, which would connect her to the creation of the Erdtree and also the Omen and especially Mogh to the DLC. The tree has the live blended into it, literally.
Listening in now! So excited to hear your thoughts!! 😁
Here is some of my deductions/assumptions of the story trailer. Just as a fan, not a content creator but still want to share what i understand and my predictions ig
Section 1: I believe the seduction and betrayal might be about the godskins. What she pulls the gold out of looks like the swaddling cloth, the sky is gloamy, the bodies are all skinned and red and fleshy. Also, gold here definitely is synonymous with light and life, and shadow and death as the opposites. Gives off dark souls vibes. Another point (imo) the golden order was not made yet, the erdtree wasn't either. Just Gold. Marika brought Gold onto the world and has to fight for its existence, leading into the second section with the war against mesmer.
Section 2: Mesmer's eye is very similar to the lion dancer, and I'm curious as to what the connection might be. If mesmer is a tyrant maybe Marika is leading an uprising and mesmer burns the city? This would also go along with the later half of the trailer where miquella has followers and is leading them here too, since miquella is following Marikas path.
Section 3: I think in the first trailer it's miquella that mesmer is mentioning when he says "would truly thou lordship sanction in one so bereft of light" because miquella abandoned the golden order and all things gold. He is walking her path, finding a whole new type of order, maybe even something to rival the elden ring itself.
Section 4: we see miquellas followers. I believe Marika couldn't beat mesmer and had to seal the land of shadows, veil then away instead of beating mesmer. I think we will lead the charge against mesmer and do what Marika could not, in the name of miquella. (And maybe a secret boss where we get to fight miquella and steal whatever power he finds/creates. Fitting for the beginning with the seduction and the betrayal)
Just overarching ideas and themes, nothing too gritty in the details since we can't be sure and I'm not that deep into the lore to think of the minute details that would affect this idea
The secret is: we are all just fans. I'm just a mimic with a microphone, my opinion is no more valid than yours just because I recorded and uploaded it.
Thanks for sharing a lot of your thoughts. What I find interesting is that you set Marika and Messmer's relationship as antagonistic and that he may have been the root cause of conflict.
Which is entirely possible, I could see a scenario where the son becomes a ruthless ruler and his mother disapproves.
The one homie in the back of the crowd that you said looks like Kaaths fallower seems to be wearing Jerrens mask. Maybe I'm blind.
I just want to point out that no one is talking about the blood/formless mother. After all, she's the only outer God whom has no physical presence within the lands between just as Messmer. It is by her hand or in her presence the tarnished will enter the realm of Shadow. The formless Mother is also the only God that favors the crucible/omen by giving Mohgwyn and others the power of her blood. A formless being, in the form of blood, blood that can be used anywhere throughout the Lands Between. Perhaps she is only formless in the Lands between knowing the present Eardtree is an illusion casting a veil of Shadow to which realm the Formless Mother(Primordial Eardtree) resides. Seeing as the Eardtree has been burnt before the tarnished rule. Which would help explain Placidusaax being elden lord to a God because the dragon wasn't a god himself. That God being the "Formless" Mother, who's "form" may be what we are shown being defiled(betrayed) by Maricka to birth her age of gold from the God Mother's soul. In that case, the Greater Will is an illusion in itself, created by Maricka in the image of her own Will. Creating an even greater illusion that by killing a God's body, she became a god. Yet the God Mother remains to all, may be it in the form of shadow, gold, blood, you name it.
Literally, he is all over the place. He’s so obsessed with the sunroom that he can’t see Past it
"dragon snake man is doin' a massacre" - that's what the DLC should have been called
I believe that rune carved in the tree is the same rune carved on Godwyns back during the night of black knives
24:40 hmmm i like that actually, because the Omen Lion using golden lightning bugs me, but if we have Godwyn's influence in the Lands of Shadow this could be explained.
Been waiting on this vid big dog let’s goooooo!!!
I think you got the timeline wrong slightly.
I believe what we are seeing in the start of the video is the "birth" of the erdtree
Destine Death removed and that stuff happens later when the rune is removed from the elden ring. Which probably didn't even exists at the time of this trailer.
That "sap" actually has a sickle or scythe like shape and looks to be hanging off of a branch on the Shadow Tree.
My timeline would be like: The crucible is already in the Lands Between, Marika arrives bringing the Golden Order, Allies herself with the Crucible, Marries Godfrey, Godfrey/Crucible wins her wars against the Giants, Dragons, and possibly the Godskins, Marika casts Godfrey out, Marika Marries Radagon, They have Messmer, Marika betrays the crucible and sends Messmer to eliminate every trace of it.
Great breakdown as per usual 🔥
Curious to know your thoughts on the word "affair" in this section. How should we interpret it? I did so quite literally. That is, Marika seducing and then betraying Godfrey, having an affair with someone (something -- a dragon!?) resulting in the birth of gold (Godwyn) and shadow (Messmer), who would then be twins, both rife with draconic imagery, and providing a nice symmetry across all sets of her children, making all of them twins. That is, the fell twins (with Godfrey), the twin prodigies (with Radagon) and the draconic twins (with something or someone). I think this is sort of consistent with a video you had made in the past about Godwyn being part dragon and not being Godfrey's son.
I do like your interpretation of the gold arising and shadow being born, I just totally neglected to draw the connection between "shadow" and Maliketh haha. EDIT: Forgot to say thanks for the video!
When miquella put himself into the cocoon at his haligtree he was going to become the new god upon his return(like how godfrey returns but isn’t a god cause marika took his grace to go to war). When mohg takes miquella we see that he is still young so Whatever mohg did to miquella killed him if his body reverts to the state that margit reverts to after we kill him.
Miquella and St. Trina are basically Dr. Chiba and Paprika, then. That could be an interesting area or fight.
We know Marika is pretty duplicitous, she betrays her own servants, so why would you assume it's someone betraying her at 11:05 and not her committing a great betrayal
I don’t think this is what you were getting at with the Memory Stones but is it just me or do they cause that optical illusion where if you stare at them they leave an afterimage? Also would be a clever way for them to leave a “memory”
18:48
Something i wanna correct is the crucible is the source of all life, so it came first