if you set the Tarnish to be similar background Nighfolks or Numen, could we argue that MC could be unspoken Mimic since we can resist Miquella golden influence of Compassion & the golden crown? again it's stretching it, BUT is it possible that Marika had us as Tarnished Vagabond but Nox had access to our body via Mohg's agent & tempered the body to be Nox/Mimic/Albinauric hybrid since we are NightFolk if we pick that template; I know the templetes dont effect the story but it gives us visual story of who we could be if the option is allowed to look certain way. it's huge stretch.
Notice how the dragonkin soldiers are missing their stomachs. I’m pretty sure this must mean they are connected to the trolls, which would also make sense as they are large, unintelligent and shouty. Also there is a mimic blob thing that transforms into a troll in one of the eternal cities. It definitely seems like trolls or their mimics were used to create the dragonkin soldiers
That brings an idea, what would a troll or giant look like if it partakes in dragon communion? We’ve seen both perfect and imperfect communions with tarnished (Ancient Dragon Man and the Magma wyrms) but what would that look like for a troll or giant? Could the dragonkins of the base game are the imperfect versions while Bayle was the one and only perfect creation
Now hold on a damn minute... WAIT CRAP HOW DO YOU GO FROM STONE SCALE SKIN, RED LIGHTNING, 4 WINGS, ARMS WITH HANDS... TO 2 WINGS, 2 LEGS, NO RED LIGHTNING...
The trolls are hollow because they are distant relatives of the giants who in turn are hollow because the fell god no longer resides within them. I think it's worth noting that the trolls have a gravestone in their stomach hole.
I didn't realize just how close the Dragonkin soldiers resembled BAYLE THE DREAD! But wouldn't it make more sense for the Nox to create Mimics of Bayle with the Dragonkin? Bayle uses fire lightning while the Nox don't use fire (that isn't ghostflame) and could only conjure up Frozen Lightning. As for Metyr, she does peace out into a microcosm black hole so she's (presumably) still alive.
If Bayle came before the Dragonkin where did Bayle come from? I understand the contention with the fire lighting when we don’t see the Nox having much “fire” in their culture, but recall that Ancient Dragons use Red Lightning. If the Nox could not create Red Lightning the next best thing would be Fire Lightning. From Ice lightning to Fire Lightning seems plausible from the author of a song of Ice and Fire. And yeah Metry is still probably alive, but it still only says Legend and not God. By the way, loved your Miquella/Torrent video. I hadn’t gotten that Cookbook with the spirit raisin and Miquella’s Branch in it and I could not make heads or tails as to how Miquella could have had Torrent with zero evidence in game. Thanks to that cookbook though we have all the evidence we need!
Also, there's another theory that Bayle and the Modern Dragons could be Omen dragons who have connections to the Crucible. Many Omens have feathers, horns, and scales. Something the modern dragons also have and something Bayle has, but not something Ancient Dragons have. As the Ancient Dragons are mostly made up of stone and hair.
Maybe Is fire lightning instead of cold, because that time they combined that method with the crucible. Thats why Bayle and his kin have crucible aspects. And thats why fire and lightning which are separate in ancient dragons, are combined in him. And thats why his kin can combine with other elements in their surroundings Dragonkin being a pure and lesser copy doesnt have that
@@JackisaMimicmy interpretation was that bayle is a naturally born omen dragon that’s doing all sorts of crazy shit with his cursed blood. we know omen blood can be used to create flame attacks that also scale with arcane Him being an omen would also explain his descendants the drakes having feathers as well as explaining the curled horns on bayle. I think the nox/dragon kin connection is absolutely relevant to Bayles story, but I’m not sure I agree with the narrative of bayle being created by the nox with the evidence from this video
@@JackisaMimic Great question! My best guess is that Bayle may have been akin to one of the eternal Everlasting Dragons tho I have been exploring Farum Azula and its spacetime shenanigans with fresh eyes. That said, it does seem like Bayle and Greyoll gave birth to all of the dragons. Greyoll was "the mother of all dragons," which at first I thought just meant the modern dragons but the fact that Florissax calls Bayle the "oldest, and vilest, of all dragons" makes me think that Greyoll and Bayle are the Adam and Eve for dragons. And if that is the case, it does seem odd to me that the Nox could create FromSoft's best dragon fight ever (sorry Midir!) yet their Dragonkin Soldiers would be derided as "decrepit, pale imitations of their skyborn kin." So to me, it just makes more sense that the Nox would be inspired by Bayle's attack and create Dragonkin Soldiers in honor of him.(Mimicry is the sincerest form of flattery!) And thank you so much! I just love how a mundane item description can reveal so much! It was also a nice change of pace to get critical lore by saving a random NPC instead of killing them 😅
It wasn't just Bayle, though. The new red lightning pots say that some ancient dragons sided with Bayle, which explains why Senessax is at the jagged peak and why the remaining ancient dragons at Farum are not fighting the drakes flying in its air space. Florissax's dragonbolt also implies that Placidusax didn't love his kin alluding that he was a poor leader. And there is in fact no mention of all the ancient dragons making peace with Leyndell after Gransax's assault, just the brothers Fortissax and Lansseax. Fortissax sacrificed himself to save Godwyn and Lansseax gave Vyke whom she loved her dragonbolt blessing just like Florissax gives hers to the player. So I think the pattern here is that the ancient dragons who discovered feelings of love abandoned Placidusax.
All this 100%. But.... (Of course right? Lol) Follow me here okay Fortissax and Lansseax are women though! Fortissax permanently turned into her Human form to "fight the death within Godwyn" as Fia the Deathbed Companion! That's why Fortissax is Inside Fia's Dream! The golden Dragon lighting weapon incantation is Fortissax and Godwyns. You following me?
Considering he is the "the oldest and most vile of the dragons" I reckon the dragonkin soldiers were the Nox's attempt to recreate Bayle. Not the other way around.
You are quoting an NPC. To Florissax Bayle is the oldest dragon, and NPCs do not have the full picture. Us as players can deduce the truth by combining what we know and what they tell us. I don’t think Florissax or any other Ancient Dragon is aware of the underground shapeshifting Nox and mimics, but we are.
@@JackisaMimic Since Florissax is an ancient dragon herself and seems to be a personal servant of Placidussax, it's pretty safe to assume she was around during the reign of the dragons and witnessed the events in person (Of Bayle's history I mean). And considering Bayle's only crippled due to injuries, not malformed, that doesn't really link him to the Nox. The biggest thing he's linked to is the Crucible with his horn motif. I find it more likely that Bayle was originally a normal ancient dragon that was somehow corrupted and reformed/reborn by the crucible, maybe even intentionally by a third party, and became an omen/hornsent. Which made him ferocious and short sighted like a beast, thus thirsting for Placi's position of Elden Lord and challenging him. And the Nox are only mimicking Bayle with the creation of the dragonkin soldiers, since he would be a symbol of great strength at the time, which they needed most. Mimicking the only thing that ever challenged an Elden Lord. This not only lines up with Bayle's appearance, but also his offspring, the drakes, as they also have aspects of the crucible like extra horns and even feathers. There would also be motivation for the hornsent to do this, since having a powerful dragon touched by the crucible to challenge Placi would destabilize the age of dragons and pave the way for an age of the crucible for them to be in charge. Whereas the Nox aren't really benefiting from this.
@@TheBlueKio Ancient dragons are actually the crucible perfect creations they have all its blessings, horns, wings, scales, tails and their all controlled. Bayle seems to be the anomaly in this case he has 4 horns instead of 2 and his whole body doesn't seem to be covered in stone scales. I think this way it makes bayle attack more justifiable that in anger of not being like his kin he tried to proved himself and attacked placidusax. Also the idea of a stone creature "devolving" into a flesh creature is much more fitting and it speaks to a weaking God and falling society.
I really do not think people understand the Dragon Priestess when she says that Bayle is the "oldest" dragon. He is not the oldest drake, but the oldest dragon of all, including Placidusax. Placidusax and the "ancient" dragons have hands, and hands were gifted by Metyr to the Beastmen, Beastmen that serve the dragons. Bayle can reurrect in the flesh of those that consume his heart. Who else resurrects when consumed? The World-devouring Serpent, which is why Tanith attempts to consume Rykard after he is defeated: so he may "find purchase within" her. Consuming drake hearts also transforms a consumer into a magma wyrm. What does Bayle, Rykard, and the Magma Wyrms have in common? MAGMA. Liquid rock. The earth was magmatic in its beginning, and only cooled to rock (gravelstone) after millions of years. ER is not Dark Souls. Its cosmology is different. Magma came first, and violently so. Bayle was born of that magma. That is why his talisman increases magma damage. Bayle's transgressive communion is much like another form of communion in-game: the Dungeater's communion, or the Omen. I think that Bayle is a Crucible dragon and, much like the Omen and Hornsent that Marika shuns, Bayle was shunned by Placidusax and Metyr for not bowing to their commands. He was likely there first, which is why he has his own Captain Ahab. He, like Moby Dick, represents the unbridled earth, a Darwinistic creature of myopic hunger and rage and primordial evolution. And as for his descendents being drakes, so what? Godrick is descended from Godfrey and Godwyn, yet Godfrey is the "lowly Tarnished". The drakes are nonetheless descended from the "oldest, vilest dragon", Bayle.
This is wrong. Florisax is talking in the context of the drakes. Ancient dragons have existed with Farum Azula as a whole before time was even a concept. They ARE the oldest, proven by at least 2 in-game descriptions. Placidusax was Elden Lord before anybody else. Bayle lacks hands because he fought with Placidusax and lost them. One of his arms ends in an exposed, brutalized bone. I don't think it needs further explaining, Bayle is also lacking a leg, some other pieces and has 2 heads stuck on his back. You're just objectively wrong on that one chief, Miyazaki repeated the origins of dragon life in this game again.
@@anecro his bone ends are his wings, not his arms. "Exposed talon bone" per his communion spell Flame Lightning. He never had arms, only wings. You are wrong also on Florissax. She says, "Warrior true. Picture yourself feasting on a dragon's essence. On the oldest, and the vilest, dragon." She does not say drake. Want more proof? Bayle's heart states that Bayle's heart is used for the "purest form of Communion." PUREST. If Bayle was of diluted drake blood then it would not be the PUREST dragon communion. Where are your quotes?
Probably the reason people have become untrusting of lore text stating something's primacy is basically anything involving Marika's age (She's like, totally the first god ever bro. And godwyn? First ever demigod to die. Godfrey? Yeah I'm the first ever Elden lord source trust me bro). But if you do take Florissax at face value that Bayle is literally just the oldest dragon, that would help explain the Crucible horn-like gravelstone, lack of hands, etc. I do like this theory too, probably more than Bayle as a creation of the Nox imo. Still, I can see why Jack doesn't take Florissax at her word. Especially since NPC dialogue tends to be even more unreliable than item text.
@@thehotwindblowing that is understandable. The thing that convinces me that Bayle is the oldest is his link to Magma, and Magma is the stuff that is linked to the primordial state of the Earth, and the key to it sustaining Life since the magma within the Earth is crucial for gravity, the magnetosphere, and, most importantly to the lore, volcanoes. And volcanoes are linked to the Fell God whom Metyr pressed Marika to destroy. I think the "ancient" dragons were gifted hands, much like the Beastmen, which is why they can wield lightning like a glaive. The Beastmen wield red lightning and breathe fire, too, which makes me think they are diminutive versions of dragon hybrids, similar to how the Vulgar Militia are diminutive versions of humans. In short, I think the Greater Will is a colonizing force that sent Metyr to form a certain Vision out of the Crucible. A forging hand, you might say. Marika is the vessel of thst Vision.
I really like this reading of Bayle’s themes. Hawkshaw’s most recent video has some beautiful thematic analysis on Elden Ring’s themes of society, civilization, and instinct, and I think Bayle plays into that really well. Personally, I think the magma part has more to do with proximity to the crucible, as it very well fits the theme of ‘chaotic melting pot’. Aside from physical animalistic aspects, the crucible might also affect one’s mind, and Bayle as this supposed incarnation of the crucible is a very emotional being.
I think what makes more sense is the other way around. The Nox managed to only create imperfect copies of Bayle. Bayle was the blueprint. They may have wanted to create their own Bayle with stone scales, an immortal dragon with the designs of the flesh-based ones. Other things like the legs or wings just seem silly to me, more like stretches to support this theory if anything. Bayle's leg was damaged in his fight with Placidusax and his other one works just fine. This was just ignored and the connection wasn't made here despite mentioning the injuries of said fight. Moreover, the Dragonkin have clothing showing where they come from and their limbs are completely different to Bayle's, plus their wings are more similar to the Elden Beast or Astel, who actually fell on the Eternal City and wrecked havoc. Astel and his brothers could have given inspiration to the Nox to begin with if not directly influenced the materials they could be using, so this makes much more sense than connecting this to Bayle's own creation. This strengthens the connection of the moon, stars and cold magic even further too. Additionally, Bayle shows a lot of crucible-aligned design (pushing him further back and possibly making him older than the Nox altogether), specifically his horns, which the Dragonkin lack. The Nox using anything crucible related is not mentioned anywhere and there's nothing in the design of their cities and culture to suggest this. If anything the Nox probably aren't fond of anything besides their own method of creating life and a lord, they seem very absorbed in their silver tear practices similarly to how every other faction is with their source of power, most of which include discrimination and abandonment / punishment if you do things a different way. I personally believe Bayle was at best their blueprint in creating a dragon, they might've even tried to imitate him in hopes of challenging the ancient dragons themselves the same way he did. The one thing that's definitely weird still is the fact that his incantations require arcane but this isn't as crazy as it's portrayed here, most dragon incantations require arcane on top of faith and he stands in direct opposition to the ancient dragons that function with faith. It only makes sense his would be the other side of the coin, as the leader or father of all flesh-based dragons.
Ok the second part about the God slain message is somehow even worse. The Elden Beast is obviously the God the message is referring to. Radagon / Marika are the VESSELS of the Elden Ring, but still, they'd be considered a God (Radagon would be the king consort of that God but since he is Marika there's no difference, it's basically a glitch). Biggest point I can possibly make is that the "God slain" message would've popped up once you killed Radagon if he was the God the message was referring to, but it pops up after you kill the Elden fucking Beast, using Radagon as a sword. Miquella had successfully ascended as a God and Radahn was his consort, so yes, in that case everything's in order. As for Metyr... Metyr is literally a broken antenna locked in the land of shadow. It is not a God. Metyr is a device that gives birth to the fingers that can directly contact the greater will, it was never at the level of the Elden Beast. But above all... I refuse to believe you called the Gloam Eyed queen the God of Placidusax. There is simply no way you messed up the timeline this badly, after literally establishing it here. The ancient dragons were here before time started to spin around in the world. They have time altering powers and are quite possibly the oldest thing you see in the lands between. The Gloam Eyed queen had her own order, had her own Godskin apostles and was essentially killing other gods in order to steal their strength or possibly maintain herself and her people. There is 0 reason why Placidusax's God would need to do all this. This is a very deliberate scenario of a god that has fallen and needs to get back up, which makes no sense when it comes to the timeframe of the dragons OR Marika's own timeframe. Placidusax's God fled probably when he decided to lock himself away and rested. Florisax breaks her connection to Placidusax if she succumbs to sleep. The ancient dragons in general seem to have a thing against sleep, which ties in to their eternal nature. I believe after the fight Placidusax had to rest and committed a sin against his God by doing so, so the connection was severed, after staying with him since the literal start of the universe, before even time was a concept. I see nothing similar between the Gloam Eyed queen and the ancient dragons, from the colors they use to the elements they're tied with, there couldn't be something more far fetched, especially considering the queen's n. 1 weapon aiding the apostle's hunt is literally a lesser version of the rune of death. I now feel like this video was bait or a troll.
Something I noticed: Visually, the Dragonkin have always stood out to me as not fitting the Nox aesthetic. Gold wrappings, purple flesh, red cape. A dragon in a place that otherwise doesn’t seem to worship dragons at all. I think we get answers retroactively. The Dragonkin now looks like it would fit within Belurat standing right next to the Dancing Lion. Both have a similar palette, large ceremonial plating and mantle, and can harness lightning and ice (Dragonkin fuses lightning and ice but can’t summon storms), AND they’re the result of some divine ritual. The Dragonkin has always had a puppet-like aspect to it whether it is one or not, with its armor pieces clattering around similar to the Dancing Lion. I don’t think the Nox were simply mimicking the Belurat culture but they were definitely mimicking the magic that brought life to the Dancing Lion. Instead of monks piloting a puppet, they had a silver tear absorb a Drake heart. Instead of lions they chose dragons as their figure of choice. More than before I’m just wondering what the Nox were hoping to achieve with this experiment, if it was the last of their Silver Tear endeavors or if others came after. Edit: Assuming you’re right and Bayle is the magnum opus of the Eternal Cities, that would mean ALL drakes have ties to silver tears. Which explains a lot actually, specifically the drake’s unique ability to adapt to their environment, complete with altering its breath element depending on its affiliation.
I'd seen a theory about the hornset jars as attempts to create "saints" of the crucible. Taking aspects of different sources and melding them with shaman flesh. This theory sees marika as a product of the pots, specifically that she exits reborn as an emperyean and that's what allows her and her kin to interact with the gate of divinity and ascend to godhood We know the nox were attempting to create a lord of their own to usurp the order, could be that they know you can make an emperyean, they're just unsure of the specifics
@@ThatGuyWhoBeHim The jar theory has to be worst theory out right now. Marika couldn't be a perfect jar saint if she was, she would have wings, horns, a tail, and scales and fur. All the aspects of the crucible perfectly combined into a being like ancient dragons.
@ramoraid yeah for sure man, just look at all the jar innard mobs in the gaols with wings and horns and scales Weirdly aggressive toward a theory, it's not like I created it lmao
@@ThatGuyWhoBeHim huh, yeah i really dislike this jar theory it very narrow and doesn't speaks to how conniving Marika really is or the seduction into power.
How do we know it's Nox > Bayle > Dragonkin and not Bayle > Nox > Dragonkin? Placi subcontracts offing Bayle to murderhobos- no disrespect to Igon, king of trashpickers and trashtalkers- maybe Bayle did the same thing, getting some eternity-obsessed lizard-people to start making sucky clones of himself
i would be more likely to believe that the nox found pieces of bayle flesh from his fight with placidusax and use that as a base when trying to make their nox dragon. they were so preoccupied with making an ancient dragon that they didn't realize that bayle was a wyvern with enough power to challenge Placidusax. Maybe if they tried to make their dragonkin creations wyvern and not ancient dragons it would have been closer in power and abilities to bayle. bayle is interesting though because he is a wyvern with only two front wings and two legs however in his boss fight he sproughts magic shoulder wings. true ancient dragons in elden ring all have four wings it is one of the marks of a true dragon. i think this is the closest we have seen a regular wyvern get close to being a true ancient dragon in fromsoft. It is no wonder that bayle thought that he could rival placidusax.
I remain unconvinced due to the following, The Nox have never attempted to do anything with The (horn based) crucible before, so it wouldn't make sense that they made one fire dragon that worked better than their other attempts. They may have sided with him due to his uprising against whatever controlled the Elden ring at the time and base the models after him. But I think Bayle's older than the Nox. Altered by evolution.
perhaps the creation of bale is what angered the greater will and shunned them underground, cutting them off from the crubicle and true sky (which would explain he change in lightning to cold under the false sky), and making future attempts less successful
@@aaroniouus there are more reasons. Another is that Bayle has one good leg and is the oldest Drake. The Nox's dragons all had withered legs, if Bayle was the prototype his leg would have withered away as well.
I wouldn't bother making sense of it if I were you lol, 99% of this guy's theories make no sense, feels like he's just rambling nonsense most of the time
The nox are likely as old as either the hornsent or the astrologers all which put them way after placidusax his reign as elden lord. The Nox seem to share a lot of knowledge with the Caryan family, Raya lucaria academy and Sellia.
@@roscoe2311 its all good man, evrybody forgets poison (i only remember it cuz i always try to make poison work in FS games, never works but the poison assasin a fun little character fantasy)
I do see this being a good theory, but there was some points that wouldn’t really be connected (like how 1st gen albanaurics can’t walk and Bayle is missing a leg, which isn’t connected because he lost his leg in battle with Placi). Take out the random points and this is still really solid though
The strongest part of his theory is with the Dragonkin’s design and honestly the theory works stronger in reverse in the way that the Nox tried to replicate Bayle and thus resulted in the Dragonkin.
I dunno, linking it all together with arcane is a bit weak. As arcane just is reference to all magic that involves blood. If what you theorize is true, then Mogh is also related to the nox. And the formless mother is related to the nox. And the Scarlet Rot is related to the nox. It's like linking all intelligence items to glintstones. The reason why albinaurics are so heavily arcane based is because they are MADE with silver magic blood. The appearances also do not match at all to the dragonkin. Dragonkin fight on their knees because their legs are weak with the albinauric curse. Bayle fights because ONE OF HIS LEGS GOT TORN OFF. Also, Bayle lacks the hollow troll body that the Dragonkin have. Plus, not only does Bayle's wings look vastly different to the Dragonkin, he also only has two, when compared to the Dragonkin's four. Bayle also lacks arms, that the dragonkin do have. Bayle also has the Immortal Scales. We straight up see them on his heart. The biggest point of evidence against all of this is that the Nox were banished to the underground by the Golden Order, which existed long after the Age of the Dragons. The timeline just doesn't match up. Overall, this albinauric theory just weakens Bayle as a character for me, and also doesn't explain his relationship to drakes. Bayle doesn't need a big conspiracy to be interesting: He is basically Dragon-satan, the first to betray his own kin, to gorge on the hearts of others, the end of the dragon's paradise. Which is more compelling? That he's an puppet for the nox, with no will of his own? Or that his ambitions are so great, that he would betray everyone? Ambitions so great, that not even having his heart consumed will stop his thirst for power.
Ahh looks like the Nox created a mimic that can still door the sharpest of eyes 😉 Your biggest point of evidence against my theory is wrong. It isn’t the Golden Order that banished the Nox - “Long ago, the Nox invoked the ire of the Greater Will, and were banished deep underground.”
@@JackisaMimic What about their other points though? Are you just going to ignore them? Personally, I think this theory is far too big of a reach, and ignores lots of aspects of the game and the story within it to argue that Bayle is a Dragonkin. From their entirely different anatomy (Bayle: Two wings, two "false" wings, and two legs / Dragonkin: Two arms, two legs, four real although sickly wings) Their inconsistent explanations for their false lightning, where the Dragonkin only use ice lightning because they knew no true sky as said in the Frozen Lightning Spear description, meaning Bayle's flame-lightning doesn't align despite being false lightning as well due to the fact that Bayle does know the true sky as he is free unlike the Dragonkin. Their point about Arcane is a fair one too, as it relates to the build-up of various different effects (bleed, poison, sleep and madness), relates to item discovery which fits the definition of arcane "known or understood by very few; mysterious; secret; obscure; esoteric" (dictionary.com), and is shared by both Dragon Communion (which does include Bayle's Communion spells marking him as a true modern dragon/drake), and the Formless Mother and her bloodflame, which are entirely unrelated. Alongside this, your point bringing attention to Bayle's missing leg as a point of comparison for the weak legs of the Dragonkin and the Albinauracs is a flawed one, as Bayle is simply missing a leg and is able to move impressively despite that. As well as this, the point about the right arm (which I'm honestly thinking was a joke) doesn't hold any weight at all since Bayle only has one exposed bone which happens to be on his right wing while the Dragonkin use both of their arms quite often in their fights. There is also your point about Bayle's Heart, which is outright disproved by the item description you included in your video, which states "Dotted with horn-like gravel stones" specifically stating "horn-LIKE" while also calling them gravel stones, which Dragonkin possess none of and which are seemingly not an aspect of the Crucible like normal scales are. Which further differentiates Bayle from the Dragonkin on top of all of the other differences already apparent.
@@Hyjack2002 Of course he gonna ignore them,he do it all the time ( have some disputed with him before,most of his theories are extra far reach). Just to add something up to you guys really good counterpoints,the Dragonkin soldiers have no dragon heart, while Bayle have one,not even a regular one,"Dotted with horn-like gravel stones and glistening with deep-red liquor." This point Bayle more closer to the crucible. I simply cant see a single point between the Nox and Bayle ( Bayle probably predates Nox anyway)
I think you have it backward. I think the Dragon Kin soldiers are the result of the Nox using Bayle as a template for their Dragon Kin. This is why the Kin are weaker than Bayle despite being later creations, they are pale copies. Perhaps they took Bayle's genetic material from the missing leg.
@@Ephyum They didn't. They took Bayle's DNA from the blood and flesh left after Bayle's battle with Placidusax and cloned him. They didn't need the whole original specimen.
@@ZacUAX that is exactly what is reversed. They are described as pale imitations of their skyward kin. Nothing saying the drakes or bayle are creations of the nox.
From memory, those triangular and squared face/chin designs are iconic of the ancient dragons then up to Bayle, he is the last with it until the dragonkin soldiers. All of Bayles supposed line and spawn have more animalistic/DemiHuman/Beastman styled in looks, which is more of a Hornsent/Crucible trait. It is possible Bayle was created as a mimic, OR that he was the first Hornsent/Omen of Dragonkind, as their society rose and were contemporary for some period. Perhaps that changed the trajectory of Bayles line and as rhe Animal took over more and more devolving the dragonkind and "normalizing them" to the Hornsent Order, only the Gravelstones remaining in more animal. We know through Hornsent lore that they believe in periods of rage and struggle, warring for the causes they believe in unto death, and also have Wind Lightning, and Frost Storm spells, much like many ancient dragons had and use storm spells. Perhaps Bayle was the first of their partnered communion or competing Orders.
Great video as ever :) I really enjoy how your wild ideas come together! The Drakes' ability to assimilate / adapt to their surroundings could well tie into this framework as another example of their mimicry. I'd even wager that Fire/Ice Lightnings are also technically mimics - using temperature/pressure change to induce an electrical response? Sort of how volcano clouds' ash friction can spawn lightning, or how ice crystals are key to manifesting lightning in normal thunderclouds! By comparison the Ancient Dragons can simply manifest lightning without engaging in the necessary meteorological processes? Perhaps their stone scales can create static charge, if we ignore the realms of magic at least?
And here I was thinking Bayle was a meteor summoned by Sellen, back when she was going by Lusat, that destroyed Farum Azula, which used to be atop jagged peake. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh Great video! You’ve got me wondering if the Nox sent Bayle to fuck with Placidusax as a false flag attack that started Leyndells war with the dragons lol
On the subject of the Dragonkin Soldier of Nokstella, when it transitions into phase two it does explode with lightning and sprout wings. HOWEVER, if you look closely when the Dragonkin Soldier flies, it sprouts 4 wings. Admittedly I didn’t realize this until your video, but that would signify to me that the Nox used Ancient Dragon DNA rather than Drake DNA. Great video by the way.
Another interesting parallel between Game of Thrones’ dragons and Bayle is the music itself, the dragons’ music whenever they’re onscreen have a specific leitmotif, and Bayle has a strikingly similar leitmotif in his song albeit a more twisted version. If you want proof, listen to the season 7 ost song “Spoils of War Pt.1” especially when it gets around to the 2:20 mark and compare it to the 1:05 mark in Bayle’s theme. The GoT reference is very strong.
I'm gonna be honest, i was so ready to dismiss this because it went against what i thought was the truth, but even i kmew that there had to be some connection with Bayle and the Dragonkin Soldiers. This was an ear-opener and you've earned a new subscriber. I love this outta-the-box theorizing and i cannot wait for more. Keep it up my man!
You're wrong, Bayle doesn't lack one leg - that was Placidusax's doing - but he lacks something else... Ancient dragons had 2 front legs (or arms, if you prefer), while Bayle and his progeny don't, so the parallelism with alabinaurics is still there! Also, the horns in Bayle's head look exactly like the ripples represented in the Ripple Blade, whose description states that they're thought to be the origin of the albinaurics, so... Theory confirmed, right??
Oh I know he had two legs, I was just paralleling his inability to walk properly. It’s thematic that he has leg injuries and thus can’t walk normally Great catch on those other details! Thank you for sharing with me. I didn’t need more evidence but I always welcome it!
From the moment I fought Bayle I was trying to deconstruct him and I couldn’t and still can’t shake off the feeling that Bayle is some sort of Omen like the twins.
Absolutely fantastic, Jack. I love this format and having item descriptions the entire way through really was the icing on the cake. 10/10 my friend this did NOT disappoint ❤ Was going to leave a like but then you made that comment about my mum. Now I'll have to share as well 😂
2 questions of mine: if the mimic's inherent arcaneness is why Bayle's communion spells only require arcane, then why doesn't the spell channeling the power of a Dragonkin require any arcane? the implication seems to be that arcaneness will influence how the powers manifest because of the mimic at the core, but that rule seems to be skipped over for the dragonkin. the other is, well, if he was a mimic, why didn't he drop a larval tear? is it because bayle isnt a perfect mimic of placidusax, while the other tears perfectly mimic other enemies?
The Dragonkin are still using Ice Lightning and are notably failures, it isn’t until they are successful that by relying on innate arcaneness can Bayle use Fire Lightning, which is much closer to the Ancient Dragons Red Lightning. The goal is to try to recreate your target as close as possible, and Fire Lightning is much closer to Red Lightning than Ice Lightning. I don’t know if that’s satisfactory or not. I had some commenters bring up that the Dragonkin have a hollowed out stomach much like the Trolls, and there is a mimic tear who turns into a Troll in Nokron. It could be that Bayle has some Fire Giant mixed in making his Fire Lightning. Mimicking Fire Giants and Ancient Dragons. For the second question, not all mimics drop larval tears. And I’m not being cute by saying that but there are mimics in the Eternal Cities that notably do not drop tears. It’s only enemies that transform and the Mimic Balls. These are good questions though
@16:30 the Dragon Communion Seal buffs dragon incantations, but it does not buff Placidusax's Ruin. Nor does it buff Ancient Dragon Cult incantations. And it scales with Arcane.
imho the Nox are a mimic of the Ashaii. They walk around masked in strange eternally dark cities located along a cursed/sketchy river, and they practice weird heretical arts.
Now it all makes sense. I've always wondered what made the Greater Will punish this kingdom and forced them underground. The Finger Slayer Blade was not enough reason for them to be punished, or rather the FSB came after as the next solution. It was Bayle all along and the attempt to remove a god to place their own. What a grand theory!
I admire your theory since you've been the first person i've ever seen making that HUGE conections between Bayle and the Dragonkin. But your theory is mayorly flawed. For starters; 1) Placidussax was dormant and already had lost a head before he even fought Bayle, implying that the God of the dragons left them even before Bayle's treason 2) Bayle can't possibly be an invader, since his attack on Placidusax is usuaally spoken off as a revolution or a betrayal 3) Bayle is prehistoric, he's way older than the Nox could ever be and it makes no sense for him to be made by people far younger than him, moreso it looks as if the DragonKin were based on Bayle since i highly doubt the Nox could ever reach Farum Asula and Bayle was the next best thing after Placidusax. 3) Bayle's heart describes it as "Horn like GRAVEL" not "Gravel like HORNS" his heart simply resembles horns but it clearly states they're grave scales instead. Disregarding Crucible allegations or "non gravel scale having" allegations since at least hos heart is eternal. There are others but i forgot rhwm midway through writting this
So comforted to be watching a new theory from you, Jack! Thank you for putting up with my whinging since the DLC's release. Thanks for being a shoulder and an inspiration! I'll comment further when i'm done with your video. Watching now!
I disagree. well sort of. Bayle originally could walk and fly, thus there is no reason why Dragonkin soldiers shouldn't be complete and if Nox could use crucible on Bayle, they should probably be able to replicate it for soldiers too. Not to mention if he was never part of ancient dragons, it couldn't be considered "betrayal" I think you above all doubts proved there is connection between him and soldiers and also Nox, but more likely Bayle is original and Dragonkin Soldiers are created by Nox based on him (that's why they are crippled too). Maybe Nox helped him heal after his battle or maybe even temporarily captured while he was weakend. As for why he betrayed or why he didn't have stone scale? Crucible by nature change one physique so that would explain why he is different and for alienated angsty teenager to rebel it also kinda make sense.
I don't think the timeline adds up. The dragonkin have only seen the false night sky, since they live underground. They live underground because the greater will banished the nox underground, for some great crime. If bayle would be the nox' pretender to the elden throne, would that not be the great crime? So that would suggest that Bayle (vile Bayle!) would be crrated before the dragonkin soldiers. That seems odd to me. Also, Bayle has offsping. No other mimi tear creatures can reproduce, so that seems off too.
A couple thoughts to augment your already convincing case! Dragonscale Flesh: "... inverted scales said to grow on aged dragons." Dragon Communion Flesh: "An imitation of dragonscale flesh created by human hands..." Another thought: Bayle may have been a specific kind of mimic. A Shadowbound Beast turned Baleful Shadow assassin! Ranni's assassin is called a "Baleful Shadow" and Blaidd says "[Old Iji] Told me I'd bring nought but bale to Lady Ranni." Perhaps Placidusax offended the Fingers somehow similar to Ranni.
Bayle is VASTLY older than the Nox. I could maybe see it the other way around, with the Nox trying to recreate Bayle, but the time lines just don't match up.
On the GEQ & the Girl + 3 wolves statue... Melina gives us Torrent, and the wolf ashes. Melina is burnt and bodiless. Torrent is burnt and bodiless. (Yes, he has burn marks that are denoted as such in their texture file naming!) The wolves are emblematic, if not literal, of Melina's past. Torrent was hers. I'm not convinced of the timeline with the GEQ/Melina (are they one and the same? or more like Messmer with one sealed in the other's being?) being the fled god of Placcy but... there's certainly something going on there. Excellent video, by the way! I was really on the fence about this, but I think its incredibly compelling that Bayle came from Nox experimentation and is their "failed Lord" candidate, despite being sort of their ultimate creation. Interestingly enough, the Fissure lines up with Nokron and the underground giant lake area if you combine the DLC and TLB maps... and the mountain is just right nearby (as well as Greyoll and dragonbarrow).
Queelign has a bowl cut therefore he's mimicking not only bowls but Stuart the Oreo enjoyer as well. As you can see his incantations require only single stuff creme to cast.
This is brilliant, never would have made those connections. I was hoping that casting law of regression had some kind of event during the Bayle fight, but I guess not. Would be great if it was like a secret cheese way of completing the fight where he turns back into a mimic tear and gives up or dies.
I think there is a further connection here. He has the omen horns like the omen. This connects the crucible, the fell omen and the fell god (fire). Arcane is a property of both intelligence and faith, it always was sort of a mixture of the both. Also, when discussing bayle, he is always outlined as betraying his dragon brethren. So I think that throws out your whole Nox mimic connection, as this would imply he was born a dragon or born from them. Its most likely that bayle was a dragon born with the omen curse, and from the that bloodline birthed other omen like drakes, as he and mated with greyroll. The omens were hunted by the omen hunters, the dragons are hunted by those who do dragon communion. You will also notice that almost all of the drakes have horns or feathers on their body unlike their dragon counterparts.
Was the Nox's attack on Placidusax the thing that caused them to catch the "the ire of the Greater Will" and ultimately be crushed? If the Gloam eyed queen is their god, and she was chosen by the two fingers, that would lead to her being a vessel of the Greater Will. Also, depending on how you read The Ruins Greatswor's description, it states Farum Azula was struck by Meteors, and that might have been the reason it was left in the sky, would onyx lord's have been involved in this attack? If thats true than the Onyx Lords betrayed the Nox, being the ones responsible for its state now as alluded to by Eternal Darkness spell.
Hey Jack, interesting theory here, I am wondering why this idea of mimicry is t reversed? I.E. the dragon kin being a mimic of Bayle, and the arcane being innate to dragons while the faith requirements to the ‘mimic’ dragon spells is literally faith that these spells are imbued with in order to function (like praying that they will work). Idk I’m kinda wasted rn
Great video, I like this style more than the "storytelling" because of how many lorevideos I watch, I like them shorter and succinct. I like your connection between "God slain" having to be related to empyreans and that Placidusax was the lord of the Gloam eyed Queen - and that in my mind undermines completely the idea that Melina is the Gloam eyed queen. IF there is a connection between Melina and the GEQ in my mind it has to do with whatever curse the Hornsent hexed Marika with after her betrayal against them.
Respectfully disagree, if Bayle & the drakes were artificially created by the Nox, they would not just be refered to as "lowborn" but outright false . Great video still, more out there theories are great to see (ed:tho i think you are onto something with the similarities, Bayle was likeley not the creation of the Nox rather their inspiration)
Loving this video so far but there is one thing you didn't consider. Bayle rebelled against Placidusax, they FOUGHT. They had a battle, and both were left VERY injured. Both Bayle and Placidusax are very injured, and if you notice, Bayle has two of Placidusax's heads attached to his body...
The Shaman village might offer some credibility to the theory that Marika shattered the Elden Ring out of grief. Her whole deal with the two finger was probably ‘Never seeing a loved one die’ after the horrible things done to the Shamans.
I definately see Jack as having elden ring pictures all over his house with red lines and crosses layered up with soup and poo thrown all over them. Definately up there with timdiggety
I don't think the Nox created Bayle. The Nox were most likely trying to create a mix of both Ancient Dragons and modern dragons. The Dragonkin Soldiers have long white arms similar to the Ancient Dragons and they have 4 segmented wings just like the Ancient Dragons. Bayle and modern Dragons only have 2 wings with no arms except Bayle has 2 arms with no hands. Bayle has no stone scales bc he was born an Omen ie cursed, just like Mogh/Morgott while Placidusax was more like Godwyn ie born Not Cursed. This also explains why Bayle is so connected to Arcane, Mogh and Morgott also have connections to Arcane as their weapons require Arcane to wield. The Omen Blood which Bayle seems to have some off, is enhanced by Arcane. Also when we meet Placidusax, he is in a similar pose to the two fingers, his head standing erect straight up into the sky suggesting he is waiting for a signal from an Outer God, not an Emperyan.
while I dont think the GEQ was necessarily Placidusax's god, I'm amazed by the other connections and I think you implicitly answered a major question: the identity of the fingerslayer blade. If the sacred relic sword was physically made from radagon, given the design similarities, and running with the Nox trying to destabilize Placidusax's era, the fingerslayer blade could have also been made of the god of that time period. Granted it would be strange for this to be the case when his god is 'fled' and not said to have been killed, but it also seems too conspicuous that those weapons are clearly made from individuals, one being a god.
Amazing video as always man but I do want to say I am not convinced that Bayle is a mimic I want to present the idea that Bayle was in fact something like Seethe - a dragon born without scales. Maybe possibly due to the crucible? As he is born with horns in his body and heart which may explain the lack of scales and the presence of horns instead. I do love the connection between the Nox and Bayle but I'm not convinced of the relationship you presented just yet. I that the Nox knew of Bayle and his treachery then used him and his blood and whatnot to make the Dragonkin Soldiers in contrast to your idea of them making Bayle themselves and subsequently the Dragonkin Soldiers. This will also explain why the Dragonkin soldiers have SO MUCH similarities to Bayle as Bayle was their test subject they took samples from, experimented with, and created the Dragonkin Soldiers If you have the time, I'd love to know your thoughts on this. Very very excellent video and I am a big fan of your work and the way you weave things together! EDIT: I want to add in as well that this might also be the case for albinurics. It is from Bayle's sampling that may reason why Albinurics are pure arcaneness EDIT 2: The Nox taking a sample of Bayle of some sorts and using it to then make the Dragonkin, Albinurics, and Mimics can also explain why they inherited Bayle's lack of legs and other similar imperfections. It's because they took a sample from an already maimed being so the products were also maimed/legless
God I'm so glad we are finally able to put a pin in who the heck The Gloam Eyed Queen was, and it made so much more sense that she was the first God of the Crucible Era. Rather than Melina just branching off to go and do her own thing when nothing really warranted her in doing so. I believe much like the rest of the aspects of the world or the afflictions Marika's children suffered, Melina suffered the affliction of Destined Death. Her job was that she was a magisterial official, basically a spy, an assassin, or an executioner for the Golden Order but when the Elden Ring shattered she saw it fit to chase after her destiny and become a kindling maiden for the worthy Tarnished. Likely during doing her job is when she connects with her Destined Death part, knowing that there needs to be a true death in these lands, she knows that these lands cannot last longer without it.
interesting idea with the ice lightning is that Bayle and the other dragons of the jagged peak seem to use a type of fire lightning, which I suppose to what form their lightning took as a result of their environment.
it is a cool theory, just has a few things bothering me 1- arcane isn't something fabricated by the nox, its a "part of nature" (just like sorceries aren't "made" by astrologers/glintstone sorcerers, they learn it from observing the stars and the primeval current) the oracle bubbles sorcery references that by saying that the claymen that use the spell are trying to perform divinations with their bubbles, also some weapons related to outer gods have arcane scaling so it can be related to curses too 2 - the seath comparison messes the theory up a bit, since he wasn't artificial it makes me believe even harder that bayle was just the ugly duckling of his family and thats why he's so mad besides that, neat video
1 - I think the oracles are one of the original mimics (my last two videos briefly cover this) which is why they cast their bubbles with their arcane. Only the bubbles and Bayles incants use JUST arcane, so it falls in line for me. 2 - Seath enhances the theory. You can say that Bayle isn’t a mimic but you can’t say that he isn’t mimicking Seath. See what I mean?
Dude! Nice catch on Bayle == Seethe! I hadn't realized that parallel! Or mimicry rather ;) To extend that a bit further it makes sense why he still exists in the Lands Between/Shadow. He most likely allied himself with and betrayed his kin for a Lord of Sunlight.
I think bayle is an omen dragon, since he's an ancient dragon with horns, i think his kin aren't immortal because the ancient dragons probably joined marika to make her use the elden ring to remove the immortality and scales of the drakes, which marika was probably happy to do since she hates any creature with horns
Yup I agreed the gloom eye queen was the god of plasiduex. All the snake stuff and dragons are there also why you find apóstoles in that area.The only thing I don’t understand is why when you do the frenzy flame ending you get that scene where we think it’s the gloom eye queen “to deliver what is yours destine death”
I think the observation on legs are a bit of a stretch. Bayle has 2 legs, one is fully functional while another is cripple with wound like it was torned away by some powerful force. I think Bayle's missing one of his leg in the fight against Placidusax.
This makes sense because it's very obvious that what the box where missing was vigor. I would be surprised if a smart society like the Nox didn't figure out a way to attempt to transfer vigor into a dragon kin soldier. Not to mention they new about the gate of divinity.
I noticed some things in the last part of the video I'd like to point out: 21:31 The whole "Only Empyreans get the GOD SLAIN banner" isn't necessarily the case, because we don't actually slay Metyr. It teleports away, wounded. EDIT: On the point of this, Enia the Finger Reader of the Roundtable Hold _does_ describe specifically Marika as a god, as do the Two Fingers. It could really be either Radagon/Marika or the Elden Beast. Or maybe even both, really. And, more interestingly; 20:40 Could it be that Bayle's original purpose was to slay Placidusax and then take his place? To gain the favor of the God of the Ancient Dragons? To perhaps one day become a lord? A dragonlord? Not sure how this "ancient dragon god's" policies line up with the Nox' wants and values but I thought I'd point it out.
You actually convinced me of something else. Bayle was born to stone skin dragons and got pissed he wasn't immortal or had red lighting (maybe no lighting at all) do to lack of faith. Do to being so full of hate he created arcane magic itself, granting him fire lightning and confidence to take over as elden lord. The two dragons fight, their respective magic types hurts the other more than expected. Bayle, having more hatred (therefore more arcane) was able to inflict more damage than Plasidisacs (long name, hard to spell) who loses faith in his abilities (therefore lower faith requirement) before both inflict debilitating injuries on each other. Bayle either finds the Nox or is found by them, Bayle then gives them one the heads from his back that he took as a trophy alongside his blood. With the head of the elden lord of dragons, and Bayle's hate filled blood the Nox start making combinations of both with their magic and animals. With many failures and close successes, they finally created Bayles dependents, the drakes. Using both faith and arcane to fuel their lighting and fire just like Bayle and Ple (I'm not writing his name again) combined.
So, the Nox were only sent underground while Marika was ruling... which happened a really long time after all the dragon stuff. The only reason the Nox wanted to make a lord was to overthrow Marika, so it would make literally no sense for the Nox to go after Placi.
I’ve started to think that Bayle was an omen dragon, which would explain the wings as a crucible incarnation and not looking like other ancient dragons thanks to omen mutations
@@SpremeCalamino such distinction is made. The Dragon Priestess says "oldest, vilest dragon", not "oldest, vilest drake". I think that Bayle came first, and he refused to bend a knee to Metyr, which is why he does not have hands. He is the Crucible Dragon. This is why Bayle is reborn through Dragon Communion, subsuming the consumer from within. Like the Omen seedbed that the Dungeater cultivates to create Omen, Bayle returns again and again, like a primordial disease. This is why Placidusax hates and fears him.
@@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962 tell me then why his descendants are called Modern Dragons, and why the other dragons are the ancient dragons. If Bayle came before the ancient dragons then why is he and his lineage not the ancient dragons? I think the ancient dragons used anti-dragon propaganda and convinced the dragon communers and drake warriors that Bayle is the ultimate goal. Making him seem like the Satan of dragon-kind in the lands between would make sense for them to do. If he was nothing more than father of all drakes then it wouldn’t be as sought after to defeat him, compared to an ancient harbinger of death and evil
If Bayle was the Nox's attempt at usurping the Dragonlord, then that must mean they were banished underground in relation to that event, and thus presumably the target of their Fingerslaying Blade was the fingers of the God Placidusax was Elden Lord to. If that God's assistant fingers were slain that would make a good reason for it to flee. Regardless it's quite evident the Dragonkin Soldiers are templated off of Bayle.
I’m so glad you differ from most on Placidusax’s god, I was anticipating you would just say it was Metyr or the Greater Will like most others are. People forget that he is an Elden Lord and his god would have been who he was Consort to at the time.
I also wonder though if Ranni is the original Empyrean of the Nox, for whom the mimic Lord was meant to be, or at least one of their children. Because we don’t actually know why she is an Empyrean otherwise if she really were just Rennala’s daughter. And she seems to have a bit more connection to the Nox than any other Carian Royal we know about. This could obviously be very wrong and she could maybe be only Rennala’s daughter without Radagon’s parentage, but I wouldn’t know that for sure either as I can’t imagine Renalla being able to birth Empyreans.
Crazy theory here but with this Bayle theory maybe Marika has been a mad scientist the whole time, like an Alchemist trying to achieve her Magnus Opus and her Empyrean Children are the final result. We already know the clear ties between her and the Nox. The four stages of the Magnus Opus are nigredo (the blackening or melanosis), albedo (the whitening), citrinitas (the yellowing or xanthosis) and rubedo, (the reddening, purpling, or iosis). Thought it was interesting that the colours can also be linked, alebdo being the silver mimics, citrinitas being Bayle with his yellowish fire, and the Rubedo being Radagon with his red fire giant hair. I still don't completely get the timeline of all the events in this game fit together, especially the Bayle / Placi fight but maybe the blackening was Marika's plucking the rune of death from the Elden Ring - hence cause the current world to start rotting in it's stagnation.
There is one problem...if Bayle was a succesful mimic then the Nox would have surely mass produce them and aptempted a invasion of the surface. They did not, and no dragon soldier was succesful. Edit: also is not heavily implied by latenna quest that albinauric, and arguably, mimic are sterile? Bayle however, fathered all the drake line.
Ok I am convinced, I see the connections and the chad chin is undeniable evidence. But here's something that you didnt go through that I thought you could answer: Why change from ice lightning to fire lightning? Bayle has no direct connection to the Nox, his connection is through the Dragonkin and the mimic/albinauric/silver tear, that is, they are all artificial lifeforms crafted by someone, some crafted by human hands (not sure if Nox are humans tho, it says albinaurics were created specifically by human hands and I am still not sure what "human" means in Elden Ring but albinaurics seem to have been created by the Carians) and they are made of this same material, silver or quiksilver, which in elden ring such as in alchemy has this special quality of mimicry and creating new lifeforms. But how whoever made Bayle decided to use fire instead of ice? The Nox are, as it was very well laid out by you, connected to the Dark Moon and so with ice and frost. So when did fire enter the process? I was noticing the other day that Dragonkin Soldiers look like trolls a bit. They have the giant hole on their stomach from the absence of the Fire God and what seems to be remains of troll hair on their heads. They also have some similar attacks and their humanoid bodies are about the same size and shape and there is a troll mimic right beside the chest containing the Fingerslayer Blade and there is also one in Caelid or Dragonbarrow carrying a fire sword. So like the nox have used trolls before and maybe the dragonkin are made of trolls. So maybe Bayle was created in a similar process but instead of using nox ice they used some fire from the Fire Peak trolls? Maybe he's made of actual fire giants? I couldnt figure that out. But it seems like that was crucial for the success of Bayle, like ice lightning dragons didnt work out but the fire lightning dragon worked out for some reason. Also Bayle is not the only dragon with fire lightning, the Jagged Peak Drake also has fire lightning so idk if this means they are related to Bayle or if they both came from the same thing. One last thing which I never gave much thought until now, the only other enemy kind we can find in Jagged Peak are slimes, red lightning slimes so maybe they are like the lightning silver tears? Maybe all slimes are silver tears? Silver tears are kind of like silver slimes idk. Anyway Im drifting a bit away from my question but I would really like to add this to your video and your theory. Great video as always, I love to realize the underlying mimic motif every time I watch your videos.
I was trying something new and didn’t script the video that much, I just had bullet points and item descriptions so I didn’t put in as much care into the work as I should have, so much was missed. I was too excited to share this discover that I couldn’t wait I may cover this in a future video but here is some answers to your question Fire Lighting is closer to Ancient Dragon’s Red Lightning than Ice Lightning is. If Bayle had Ice Lightning, not only would we be able to concretely say “that is a mimic” but his legitimacy as a possible usurper would not be as strong. Bayle was able to get Ancient Dragons like Senessax on his side of the conflict. I have more to add about the dragonkin and trolls but I will save that for a future video 😉
Ive only watched your 3 most recent videos, this one included, but the absolute quality within these and totally new perspectives on some of this lore, especially wuth your inclinations towards the nox and their origins being almost catalytic to everything in the ER story, is just unbelievably fantastic.
Notably, placidusax's Ruin is not a dragon communion spell, due to the fact that he is an ancient dragon and due to the fact that it isn't boosted by other dragon communion boosrs
I like the idea, especially since this explains why the greater will was pissed af at the nox, but now there's a bigger question for me; why do the drakes have Placidusax heads and not Bayle heads?
the only issue i have is with bayle having no legs, it doesnt inherently mean he was created or born without them, rather that he was injured and could no longer walk.
Who or what else do you think is a mimic?
My sub
if you set the Tarnish to be similar background Nighfolks or Numen, could we argue that MC could be unspoken Mimic since we can resist Miquella golden influence of Compassion & the golden crown? again it's stretching it, BUT is it possible that Marika had us as Tarnished Vagabond but Nox had access to our body via Mohg's agent & tempered the body to be Nox/Mimic/Albinauric hybrid since we are NightFolk if we pick that template; I know the templetes dont effect the story but it gives us visual story of who we could be if the option is allowed to look certain way. it's huge stretch.
Guys, hear me out here, but I think Jack might be a mimic
That Mimic Tear looks pretty sus. They assure me our resemblance is a coincidence, though.
gold tinged excrement is clearly poo mimic
Jack is a Mimic is definately a timdiggity mimic
“We all know who Igon is”
*Shows Igon in his best moment*
You did him good 👏
Pause
watching both your Nox video and jack's Bayle video, they fit together so well. bravo.
@@mrwhatcanido4942 awwww thank you!! ❤️
I just found your channel last night! It's amazing! Wish the algorithm had blessed me sooner haha
@@glowindark64 I thank the algorithm we have now crossed paths!! 🥲❤️
Notice how the dragonkin soldiers are missing their stomachs. I’m pretty sure this must mean they are connected to the trolls, which would also make sense as they are large, unintelligent and shouty. Also there is a mimic blob thing that transforms into a troll in one of the eternal cities. It definitely seems like trolls or their mimics were used to create the dragonkin soldiers
That brings an idea, what would a troll or giant look like if it partakes in dragon communion? We’ve seen both perfect and imperfect communions with tarnished (Ancient Dragon Man and the Magma wyrms) but what would that look like for a troll or giant? Could the dragonkins of the base game are the imperfect versions while Bayle was the one and only perfect creation
@@jonathan39272Magma Wyrm Theodorix is a troll per his breath spell
@@jonathan39272 theodorix in the consecrated snowfields
Now hold on a damn minute... WAIT CRAP
HOW DO YOU GO FROM STONE SCALE SKIN, RED LIGHTNING, 4 WINGS, ARMS WITH HANDS... TO 2 WINGS, 2 LEGS, NO RED LIGHTNING...
The trolls are hollow because they are distant relatives of the giants who in turn are hollow because the fell god no longer resides within them. I think it's worth noting that the trolls have a gravestone in their stomach hole.
Jack come home your family misses you
Bruh whats the context here?
If you're late for dinner, don't come home.
I didn't realize just how close the Dragonkin soldiers resembled BAYLE THE DREAD! But wouldn't it make more sense for the Nox to create Mimics of Bayle with the Dragonkin? Bayle uses fire lightning while the Nox don't use fire (that isn't ghostflame) and could only conjure up Frozen Lightning.
As for Metyr, she does peace out into a microcosm black hole so she's (presumably) still alive.
If Bayle came before the Dragonkin where did Bayle come from? I understand the contention with the fire lighting when we don’t see the Nox having much “fire” in their culture, but recall that Ancient Dragons use Red Lightning.
If the Nox could not create Red Lightning the next best thing would be Fire Lightning. From Ice lightning to Fire Lightning seems plausible from the author of a song of Ice and Fire.
And yeah Metry is still probably alive, but it still only says Legend and not God.
By the way, loved your Miquella/Torrent video. I hadn’t gotten that Cookbook with the spirit raisin and Miquella’s Branch in it and I could not make heads or tails as to how Miquella could have had Torrent with zero evidence in game. Thanks to that cookbook though we have all the evidence we need!
Also, there's another theory that Bayle and the Modern Dragons could be Omen dragons who have connections to the Crucible.
Many Omens have feathers, horns, and scales. Something the modern dragons also have and something Bayle has, but not something Ancient Dragons have. As the Ancient Dragons are mostly made up of stone and hair.
Maybe Is fire lightning instead of cold, because that time they combined that method with the crucible. Thats why Bayle and his kin have crucible aspects. And thats why fire and lightning which are separate in ancient dragons, are combined in him. And thats why his kin can combine with other elements in their surroundings
Dragonkin being a pure and lesser copy doesnt have that
@@JackisaMimicmy interpretation was that bayle is a naturally born omen dragon that’s doing all sorts of crazy shit with his cursed blood.
we know omen blood can be used to create flame attacks that also scale with arcane
Him being an omen would also explain his descendants the drakes having feathers as well as explaining the curled horns on bayle.
I think the nox/dragon kin connection is absolutely relevant to Bayles story, but I’m not sure I agree with the narrative of bayle being created by the nox with the evidence from this video
@@JackisaMimic Great question! My best guess is that Bayle may have been akin to one of the eternal Everlasting Dragons tho I have been exploring Farum Azula and its spacetime shenanigans with fresh eyes. That said, it does seem like Bayle and Greyoll gave birth to all of the dragons. Greyoll was "the mother of all dragons," which at first I thought just meant the modern dragons but the fact that Florissax calls Bayle the "oldest, and vilest, of all dragons" makes me think that Greyoll and Bayle are the Adam and Eve for dragons. And if that is the case, it does seem odd to me that the Nox could create FromSoft's best dragon fight ever (sorry Midir!) yet their Dragonkin Soldiers would be derided as "decrepit, pale imitations of their skyborn kin." So to me, it just makes more sense that the Nox would be inspired by Bayle's attack and create Dragonkin Soldiers in honor of him.(Mimicry is the sincerest form of flattery!)
And thank you so much! I just love how a mundane item description can reveal so much! It was also a nice change of pace to get critical lore by saving a random NPC instead of killing them 😅
It wasn't just Bayle, though. The new red lightning pots say that some ancient dragons sided with Bayle, which explains why Senessax is at the jagged peak and why the remaining ancient dragons at Farum are not fighting the drakes flying in its air space. Florissax's dragonbolt also implies that Placidusax didn't love his kin alluding that he was a poor leader. And there is in fact no mention of all the ancient dragons making peace with Leyndell after Gransax's assault, just the brothers Fortissax and Lansseax. Fortissax sacrificed himself to save Godwyn and Lansseax gave Vyke whom she loved her dragonbolt blessing just like Florissax gives hers to the player. So I think the pattern here is that the ancient dragons who discovered feelings of love abandoned Placidusax.
based lorechad
Trueee! Florissax' quest ends with her voluntarily accepting you as her new Lord so it makes sense
So do I get to bang florissax or what
@@colt4505 yeah that's exactly how Demokaze is referring to Lansseax...The word "brothers" can also include female in grammar...
All this 100%. But.... (Of course right? Lol) Follow me here okay
Fortissax and Lansseax are women though! Fortissax permanently turned into her Human form to "fight the death within Godwyn" as Fia the Deathbed Companion! That's why Fortissax is Inside Fia's Dream!
The golden Dragon lighting weapon incantation is Fortissax and Godwyns. You following me?
Considering he is the "the oldest and most vile of the dragons" I reckon the dragonkin soldiers were the Nox's attempt to recreate Bayle. Not the other way around.
You are quoting an NPC. To Florissax Bayle is the oldest dragon, and NPCs do not have the full picture. Us as players can deduce the truth by combining what we know and what they tell us.
I don’t think Florissax or any other Ancient Dragon is aware of the underground shapeshifting Nox and mimics, but we are.
@@JackisaMimic Since Florissax is an ancient dragon herself and seems to be a personal servant of Placidussax, it's pretty safe to assume she was around during the reign of the dragons and witnessed the events in person (Of Bayle's history I mean). And considering Bayle's only crippled due to injuries, not malformed, that doesn't really link him to the Nox. The biggest thing he's linked to is the Crucible with his horn motif.
I find it more likely that Bayle was originally a normal ancient dragon that was somehow corrupted and reformed/reborn by the crucible, maybe even intentionally by a third party, and became an omen/hornsent. Which made him ferocious and short sighted like a beast, thus thirsting for Placi's position of Elden Lord and challenging him. And the Nox are only mimicking Bayle with the creation of the dragonkin soldiers, since he would be a symbol of great strength at the time, which they needed most. Mimicking the only thing that ever challenged an Elden Lord.
This not only lines up with Bayle's appearance, but also his offspring, the drakes, as they also have aspects of the crucible like extra horns and even feathers.
There would also be motivation for the hornsent to do this, since having a powerful dragon touched by the crucible to challenge Placi would destabilize the age of dragons and pave the way for an age of the crucible for them to be in charge. Whereas the Nox aren't really benefiting from this.
@@JackisaMimic And NPC's give reliable information in pretty much 99% of cases in these games. They aren't unreliable narrators.
@@TheBlueKio Ancient dragons are actually the crucible perfect creations they have all its blessings, horns, wings, scales, tails and their all controlled. Bayle seems to be the anomaly in this case he has 4 horns instead of 2 and his whole body doesn't seem to be covered in stone scales. I think this way it makes bayle attack more justifiable that in anger of not being like his kin he tried to proved himself and attacked placidusax.
Also the idea of a stone creature "devolving" into a flesh creature is much more fitting and it speaks to a weaking God and falling society.
@@JackisaMimicyou’re a 🤡
I really do not think people understand the Dragon Priestess when she says that Bayle is the "oldest" dragon. He is not the oldest drake, but the oldest dragon of all, including Placidusax. Placidusax and the "ancient" dragons have hands, and hands were gifted by Metyr to the Beastmen, Beastmen that serve the dragons. Bayle can reurrect in the flesh of those that consume his heart. Who else resurrects when consumed? The World-devouring Serpent, which is why Tanith attempts to consume Rykard after he is defeated: so he may "find purchase within" her. Consuming drake hearts also transforms a consumer into a magma wyrm. What does Bayle, Rykard, and the Magma Wyrms have in common? MAGMA. Liquid rock. The earth was magmatic in its beginning, and only cooled to rock (gravelstone) after millions of years. ER is not Dark Souls. Its cosmology is different. Magma came first, and violently so. Bayle was born of that magma. That is why his talisman increases magma damage.
Bayle's transgressive communion is much like another form of communion in-game: the Dungeater's communion, or the Omen. I think that Bayle is a Crucible dragon and, much like the Omen and Hornsent that Marika shuns, Bayle was shunned by Placidusax and Metyr for not bowing to their commands. He was likely there first, which is why he has his own Captain Ahab. He, like Moby Dick, represents the unbridled earth, a Darwinistic creature of myopic hunger and rage and primordial evolution.
And as for his descendents being drakes, so what? Godrick is descended from Godfrey and Godwyn, yet Godfrey is the "lowly Tarnished". The drakes are nonetheless descended from the "oldest, vilest dragon", Bayle.
This is wrong. Florisax is talking in the context of the drakes. Ancient dragons have existed with Farum Azula as a whole before time was even a concept. They ARE the oldest, proven by at least 2 in-game descriptions. Placidusax was Elden Lord before anybody else.
Bayle lacks hands because he fought with Placidusax and lost them. One of his arms ends in an exposed, brutalized bone. I don't think it needs further explaining, Bayle is also lacking a leg, some other pieces and has 2 heads stuck on his back. You're just objectively wrong on that one chief, Miyazaki repeated the origins of dragon life in this game again.
@@anecro his bone ends are his wings, not his arms. "Exposed talon bone" per his communion spell Flame Lightning. He never had arms, only wings. You are wrong also on Florissax. She says, "Warrior true. Picture yourself feasting on a dragon's essence. On the oldest, and the vilest, dragon." She does not say drake.
Want more proof? Bayle's heart states that Bayle's heart is used for the "purest form of Communion." PUREST. If Bayle was of diluted drake blood then it would not be the PUREST dragon communion.
Where are your quotes?
Probably the reason people have become untrusting of lore text stating something's primacy is basically anything involving Marika's age (She's like, totally the first god ever bro. And godwyn? First ever demigod to die. Godfrey? Yeah I'm the first ever Elden lord source trust me bro). But if you do take Florissax at face value that Bayle is literally just the oldest dragon, that would help explain the Crucible horn-like gravelstone, lack of hands, etc. I do like this theory too, probably more than Bayle as a creation of the Nox imo.
Still, I can see why Jack doesn't take Florissax at her word. Especially since NPC dialogue tends to be even more unreliable than item text.
@@thehotwindblowing that is understandable. The thing that convinces me that Bayle is the oldest is his link to Magma, and Magma is the stuff that is linked to the primordial state of the Earth, and the key to it sustaining Life since the magma within the Earth is crucial for gravity, the magnetosphere, and, most importantly to the lore, volcanoes. And volcanoes are linked to the Fell God whom Metyr pressed Marika to destroy. I think the "ancient" dragons were gifted hands, much like the Beastmen, which is why they can wield lightning like a glaive. The Beastmen wield red lightning and breathe fire, too, which makes me think they are diminutive versions of dragon hybrids, similar to how the Vulgar Militia are diminutive versions of humans.
In short, I think the Greater Will is a colonizing force that sent Metyr to form a certain Vision out of the Crucible. A forging hand, you might say. Marika is the vessel of thst Vision.
I really like this reading of Bayle’s themes. Hawkshaw’s most recent video has some beautiful thematic analysis on Elden Ring’s themes of society, civilization, and instinct, and I think Bayle plays into that really well.
Personally, I think the magma part has more to do with proximity to the crucible, as it very well fits the theme of ‘chaotic melting pot’. Aside from physical animalistic aspects, the crucible might also affect one’s mind, and Bayle as this supposed incarnation of the crucible is a very emotional being.
Bayle is an Omen Dragon. The first of the drakes. That's how I see him.
Why’s my mom catchin strays
That was unprovoked
That isn't all she caught ;)
@@kellanaldous7092she caught you lackin
I laughed waaay hard at this, thank you
I think what makes more sense is the other way around. The Nox managed to only create imperfect copies of Bayle. Bayle was the blueprint. They may have wanted to create their own Bayle with stone scales, an immortal dragon with the designs of the flesh-based ones.
Other things like the legs or wings just seem silly to me, more like stretches to support this theory if anything. Bayle's leg was damaged in his fight with Placidusax and his other one works just fine. This was just ignored and the connection wasn't made here despite mentioning the injuries of said fight. Moreover, the Dragonkin have clothing showing where they come from and their limbs are completely different to Bayle's, plus their wings are more similar to the Elden Beast or Astel, who actually fell on the Eternal City and wrecked havoc. Astel and his brothers could have given inspiration to the Nox to begin with if not directly influenced the materials they could be using, so this makes much more sense than connecting this to Bayle's own creation. This strengthens the connection of the moon, stars and cold magic even further too.
Additionally, Bayle shows a lot of crucible-aligned design (pushing him further back and possibly making him older than the Nox altogether), specifically his horns, which the Dragonkin lack. The Nox using anything crucible related is not mentioned anywhere and there's nothing in the design of their cities and culture to suggest this. If anything the Nox probably aren't fond of anything besides their own method of creating life and a lord, they seem very absorbed in their silver tear practices similarly to how every other faction is with their source of power, most of which include discrimination and abandonment / punishment if you do things a different way.
I personally believe Bayle was at best their blueprint in creating a dragon, they might've even tried to imitate him in hopes of challenging the ancient dragons themselves the same way he did. The one thing that's definitely weird still is the fact that his incantations require arcane but this isn't as crazy as it's portrayed here, most dragon incantations require arcane on top of faith and he stands in direct opposition to the ancient dragons that function with faith. It only makes sense his would be the other side of the coin, as the leader or father of all flesh-based dragons.
Ok the second part about the God slain message is somehow even worse.
The Elden Beast is obviously the God the message is referring to. Radagon / Marika are the VESSELS of the Elden Ring, but still, they'd be considered a God (Radagon would be the king consort of that God but since he is Marika there's no difference, it's basically a glitch). Biggest point I can possibly make is that the "God slain" message would've popped up once you killed Radagon if he was the God the message was referring to, but it pops up after you kill the Elden fucking Beast, using Radagon as a sword.
Miquella had successfully ascended as a God and Radahn was his consort, so yes, in that case everything's in order.
As for Metyr... Metyr is literally a broken antenna locked in the land of shadow. It is not a God. Metyr is a device that gives birth to the fingers that can directly contact the greater will, it was never at the level of the Elden Beast.
But above all... I refuse to believe you called the Gloam Eyed queen the God of Placidusax. There is simply no way you messed up the timeline this badly, after literally establishing it here. The ancient dragons were here before time started to spin around in the world. They have time altering powers and are quite possibly the oldest thing you see in the lands between. The Gloam Eyed queen had her own order, had her own Godskin apostles and was essentially killing other gods in order to steal their strength or possibly maintain herself and her people. There is 0 reason why Placidusax's God would need to do all this. This is a very deliberate scenario of a god that has fallen and needs to get back up, which makes no sense when it comes to the timeframe of the dragons OR Marika's own timeframe.
Placidusax's God fled probably when he decided to lock himself away and rested. Florisax breaks her connection to Placidusax if she succumbs to sleep. The ancient dragons in general seem to have a thing against sleep, which ties in to their eternal nature. I believe after the fight Placidusax had to rest and committed a sin against his God by doing so, so the connection was severed, after staying with him since the literal start of the universe, before even time was a concept. I see nothing similar between the Gloam Eyed queen and the ancient dragons, from the colors they use to the elements they're tied with, there couldn't be something more far fetched, especially considering the queen's n. 1 weapon aiding the apostle's hunt is literally a lesser version of the rune of death.
I now feel like this video was bait or a troll.
My thoughts exactly
*if you look on bayles neck/back just above his two broken arms, you can see placi's two heads still biting down*
Dude what !!
Something I noticed:
Visually, the Dragonkin have always stood out to me as not fitting the Nox aesthetic. Gold wrappings, purple flesh, red cape. A dragon in a place that otherwise doesn’t seem to worship dragons at all.
I think we get answers retroactively. The Dragonkin now looks like it would fit within Belurat standing right next to the Dancing Lion. Both have a similar palette, large ceremonial plating and mantle, and can harness lightning and ice (Dragonkin fuses lightning and ice but can’t summon storms), AND they’re the result of some divine ritual. The Dragonkin has always had a puppet-like aspect to it whether it is one or not, with its armor pieces clattering around similar to the Dancing Lion.
I don’t think the Nox were simply mimicking the Belurat culture but they were definitely mimicking the magic that brought life to the Dancing Lion. Instead of monks piloting a puppet, they had a silver tear absorb a Drake heart. Instead of lions they chose dragons as their figure of choice.
More than before I’m just wondering what the Nox were hoping to achieve with this experiment, if it was the last of their Silver Tear endeavors or if others came after.
Edit: Assuming you’re right and Bayle is the magnum opus of the Eternal Cities, that would mean ALL drakes have ties to silver tears. Which explains a lot actually, specifically the drake’s unique ability to adapt to their environment, complete with altering its breath element depending on its affiliation.
I'd seen a theory about the hornset jars as attempts to create "saints" of the crucible. Taking aspects of different sources and melding them with shaman flesh. This theory sees marika as a product of the pots, specifically that she exits reborn as an emperyean and that's what allows her and her kin to interact with the gate of divinity and ascend to godhood
We know the nox were attempting to create a lord of their own to usurp the order, could be that they know you can make an emperyean, they're just unsure of the specifics
I was just thinking about their belt-squares and the similar thing on the horned/Lion/Divine bird warriors of Enir-Ilim...
@@ThatGuyWhoBeHim The jar theory has to be worst theory out right now. Marika couldn't be a perfect jar saint if she was, she would have wings, horns, a tail, and scales and fur. All the aspects of the crucible perfectly combined into a being like ancient dragons.
@ramoraid yeah for sure man, just look at all the jar innard mobs in the gaols with wings and horns and scales
Weirdly aggressive toward a theory, it's not like I created it lmao
@@ThatGuyWhoBeHim huh, yeah i really dislike this jar theory it very narrow and doesn't speaks to how conniving Marika really is or the seduction into power.
I feel like Bayle was most likely what the nox used as inspiration to make the dragonkin soldiers
Bayle > Nox > Dragonkin
How do we know it's Nox > Bayle > Dragonkin and not Bayle > Nox > Dragonkin? Placi subcontracts offing Bayle to murderhobos- no disrespect to Igon, king of trashpickers and trashtalkers- maybe Bayle did the same thing, getting some eternity-obsessed lizard-people to start making sucky clones of himself
I do believe this is the order yes,
Bayle was likely the one the Nox tried (& somewhat succeded) to emulate
who created placi then?
@@nar1768 His Dragon mum Mumisax
@nar1768 Maybe Metyr, Elden Beast, or he's just some natural spawn of the Crucible itself
@@nar1768no created anyone 🤦🏽♂️
i would be more likely to believe that the nox found pieces of bayle flesh from his fight with placidusax and use that as a base when trying to make their nox dragon. they were so preoccupied with making an ancient dragon that they didn't realize that bayle was a wyvern with enough power to challenge Placidusax. Maybe if they tried to make their dragonkin creations wyvern and not ancient dragons it would have been closer in power and abilities to bayle. bayle is interesting though because he is a wyvern with only two front wings and two legs however in his boss fight he sproughts magic shoulder wings. true ancient dragons in elden ring all have four wings it is one of the marks of a true dragon. i think this is the closest we have seen a regular wyvern get close to being a true ancient dragon in fromsoft. It is no wonder that bayle thought that he could rival placidusax.
I remain unconvinced due to the following, The Nox have never attempted to do anything with The (horn based) crucible before, so it wouldn't make sense that they made one fire dragon that worked better than their other attempts. They may have sided with him due to his uprising against whatever controlled the Elden ring at the time and base the models after him. But I think Bayle's older than the Nox. Altered by evolution.
perhaps the creation of bale is what angered the greater will and shunned them underground, cutting them off from the crubicle and true sky (which would explain he change in lightning to cold under the false sky), and making future attempts less successful
@@aaroniouus there are more reasons. Another is that Bayle has one good leg and is the oldest Drake. The Nox's dragons all had withered legs, if Bayle was the prototype his leg would have withered away as well.
I wouldn't bother making sense of it if I were you lol, 99% of this guy's theories make no sense, feels like he's just rambling nonsense most of the time
Plus Bayle’s legs are clearly just ripped apart from combat, not fading away like an Albinauric.
The nox are likely as old as either the hornsent or the astrologers all which put them way after placidusax his reign as elden lord. The Nox seem to share a lot of knowledge with the Caryan family, Raya lucaria academy and Sellia.
Another connection between the Nox and arcane is the black whetblade (found in the eternal cities) where both infusions scale with arcane
All 3 in fact:
occult,
blood
& poison
@@partymantis3421 Thanks! For some reason I forgot poison was part of the Black Whetblade
@@roscoe2311 its all good man,
evrybody forgets poison
(i only remember it cuz i always try to make poison work in FS games,
never works but the poison assasin a fun little character fantasy)
Yes Jack... Everyone is a mimic
Kkkkkkkkk
I do see this being a good theory, but there was some points that wouldn’t really be connected (like how 1st gen albanaurics can’t walk and Bayle is missing a leg, which isn’t connected because he lost his leg in battle with Placi). Take out the random points and this is still really solid though
😢 3:59 😮😮😮😅😅😮
yeah if anything bayle has an extremely good leg since he can still jump around
The strongest part of his theory is with the Dragonkin’s design and honestly the theory works stronger in reverse in the way that the Nox tried to replicate Bayle and thus resulted in the Dragonkin.
This isn’t solid at all rofl this is mindless yapping. Crazy how someone can read descriptions but flip the info around rofl.
Bayle came long before the nox. Case closed rofl
I dunno, linking it all together with arcane is a bit weak. As arcane just is reference to all magic that involves blood. If what you theorize is true, then Mogh is also related to the nox. And the formless mother is related to the nox. And the Scarlet Rot is related to the nox. It's like linking all intelligence items to glintstones. The reason why albinaurics are so heavily arcane based is because they are MADE with silver magic blood.
The appearances also do not match at all to the dragonkin. Dragonkin fight on their knees because their legs are weak with the albinauric curse. Bayle fights because ONE OF HIS LEGS GOT TORN OFF. Also, Bayle lacks the hollow troll body that the Dragonkin have. Plus, not only does Bayle's wings look vastly different to the Dragonkin, he also only has two, when compared to the Dragonkin's four. Bayle also lacks arms, that the dragonkin do have. Bayle also has the Immortal Scales. We straight up see them on his heart.
The biggest point of evidence against all of this is that the Nox were banished to the underground by the Golden Order, which existed long after the Age of the Dragons. The timeline just doesn't match up.
Overall, this albinauric theory just weakens Bayle as a character for me, and also doesn't explain his relationship to drakes. Bayle doesn't need a big conspiracy to be interesting: He is basically Dragon-satan, the first to betray his own kin, to gorge on the hearts of others, the end of the dragon's paradise. Which is more compelling? That he's an puppet for the nox, with no will of his own? Or that his ambitions are so great, that he would betray everyone? Ambitions so great, that not even having his heart consumed will stop his thirst for power.
Ahh looks like the Nox created a mimic that can still door the sharpest of eyes 😉
Your biggest point of evidence against my theory is wrong. It isn’t the Golden Order that banished the Nox - “Long ago, the Nox invoked the ire of the Greater Will, and were banished deep underground.”
@@JackisaMimic Correct. And the Greater Will came into power AFTER the age of the dragons. Furthermore, you fail to refute any of my other points
@@JackisaMimic What about their other points though? Are you just going to ignore them?
Personally, I think this theory is far too big of a reach, and ignores lots of aspects of the game and the story within it to argue that Bayle is a Dragonkin. From their entirely different anatomy (Bayle: Two wings, two "false" wings, and two legs / Dragonkin: Two arms, two legs, four real although sickly wings)
Their inconsistent explanations for their false lightning, where the Dragonkin only use ice lightning because they knew no true sky as said in the Frozen Lightning Spear description, meaning Bayle's flame-lightning doesn't align despite being false lightning as well due to the fact that Bayle does know the true sky as he is free unlike the Dragonkin.
Their point about Arcane is a fair one too, as it relates to the build-up of various different effects (bleed, poison, sleep and madness), relates to item discovery which fits the definition of arcane "known or understood by very few; mysterious; secret; obscure; esoteric" (dictionary.com), and is shared by both Dragon Communion (which does include Bayle's Communion spells marking him as a true modern dragon/drake), and the Formless Mother and her bloodflame, which are entirely unrelated.
Alongside this, your point bringing attention to Bayle's missing leg as a point of comparison for the weak legs of the Dragonkin and the Albinauracs is a flawed one, as Bayle is simply missing a leg and is able to move impressively despite that. As well as this, the point about the right arm (which I'm honestly thinking was a joke) doesn't hold any weight at all since Bayle only has one exposed bone which happens to be on his right wing while the Dragonkin use both of their arms quite often in their fights.
There is also your point about Bayle's Heart, which is outright disproved by the item description you included in your video, which states "Dotted with horn-like gravel stones" specifically stating "horn-LIKE" while also calling them gravel stones, which Dragonkin possess none of and which are seemingly not an aspect of the Crucible like normal scales are. Which further differentiates Bayle from the Dragonkin on top of all of the other differences already apparent.
@@JackisaMimic No offense but this theory sucks. Full of holes and reaches.
@@Hyjack2002 Of course he gonna ignore them,he do it all the time ( have some disputed with him before,most of his theories are extra far reach).
Just to add something up to you guys really good counterpoints,the Dragonkin soldiers have no dragon heart, while Bayle have one,not even a regular one,"Dotted with horn-like gravel stones and glistening with deep-red liquor." This point Bayle more closer to the crucible. I simply cant see a single point between the Nox and Bayle ( Bayle probably predates Nox anyway)
I think you have it backward. I think the Dragon Kin soldiers are the result of the Nox using Bayle as a template for their Dragon Kin. This is why the Kin are weaker than Bayle despite being later creations, they are pale copies. Perhaps they took Bayle's genetic material from the missing leg.
If they created bayle how did he escape the underground ?
@@Ephyum They didn't. They took Bayle's DNA from the blood and flesh left after Bayle's battle with Placidusax and cloned him. They didn't need the whole original specimen.
That was a solid Plague reference with Seath, kudos for showing respect to the original Souls' content creators
Think you got it backwards. Your theory seems to imply that Bale is what the Dragonkin were based on. To me, at least.
Ya know... I just noticed that yeah
@@ZacUAX that is exactly what is reversed. They are described as pale imitations of their skyward kin. Nothing saying the drakes or bayle are creations of the nox.
From memory, those triangular and squared face/chin designs are iconic of the ancient dragons then up to Bayle, he is the last with it until the dragonkin soldiers. All of Bayles supposed line and spawn have more animalistic/DemiHuman/Beastman styled in looks, which is more of a Hornsent/Crucible trait. It is possible Bayle was created as a mimic, OR that he was the first Hornsent/Omen of Dragonkind, as their society rose and were contemporary for some period. Perhaps that changed the trajectory of Bayles line and as rhe Animal took over more and more devolving the dragonkind and "normalizing them" to the Hornsent Order, only the Gravelstones remaining in more animal. We know through Hornsent lore that they believe in periods of rage and struggle, warring for the causes they believe in unto death, and also have Wind Lightning, and Frost Storm spells, much like many ancient dragons had and use storm spells. Perhaps Bayle was the first of their partnered communion or competing Orders.
Great video as ever :) I really enjoy how your wild ideas come together!
The Drakes' ability to assimilate / adapt to their surroundings could well tie into this framework as another example of their mimicry.
I'd even wager that Fire/Ice Lightnings are also technically mimics - using temperature/pressure change to induce an electrical response?
Sort of how volcano clouds' ash friction can spawn lightning, or how ice crystals are key to manifesting lightning in normal thunderclouds!
By comparison the Ancient Dragons can simply manifest lightning without engaging in the necessary meteorological processes?
Perhaps their stone scales can create static charge, if we ignore the realms of magic at least?
Great video! Loved the style. Can’t wait to see where you go with this
And here I was thinking Bayle was a meteor summoned by Sellen, back when she was going by Lusat, that destroyed Farum Azula, which used to be atop jagged peake. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh
Great video! You’ve got me wondering if the Nox sent Bayle to fuck with Placidusax as a false flag attack that started Leyndells war with the dragons lol
On the subject of the Dragonkin Soldier of Nokstella, when it transitions into phase two it does explode with lightning and sprout wings. HOWEVER, if you look closely when the Dragonkin Soldier flies, it sprouts 4 wings. Admittedly I didn’t realize this until your video, but that would signify to me that the Nox used Ancient Dragon DNA rather than Drake DNA. Great video by the way.
Another interesting parallel between Game of Thrones’ dragons and Bayle is the music itself, the dragons’ music whenever they’re onscreen have a specific leitmotif, and Bayle has a strikingly similar leitmotif in his song albeit a more twisted version. If you want proof, listen to the season 7 ost song “Spoils of War Pt.1” especially when it gets around to the 2:20 mark and compare it to the 1:05 mark in Bayle’s theme. The GoT reference is very strong.
I'm gonna be honest, i was so ready to dismiss this because it went against what i thought was the truth, but even i kmew that there had to be some connection with Bayle and the Dragonkin Soldiers. This was an ear-opener and you've earned a new subscriber. I love this outta-the-box theorizing and i cannot wait for more. Keep it up my man!
This is only the start of the Nox Conspiracy, just you wait! Keep an eye out for mimics for me 😉
You're wrong, Bayle doesn't lack one leg - that was Placidusax's doing - but he lacks something else... Ancient dragons had 2 front legs (or arms, if you prefer), while Bayle and his progeny don't, so the parallelism with alabinaurics is still there!
Also, the horns in Bayle's head look exactly like the ripples represented in the Ripple Blade, whose description states that they're thought to be the origin of the albinaurics, so... Theory confirmed, right??
Oh I know he had two legs, I was just paralleling his inability to walk properly. It’s thematic that he has leg injuries and thus can’t walk normally
Great catch on those other details! Thank you for sharing with me. I didn’t need more evidence but I always welcome it!
From the moment I fought Bayle I was trying to deconstruct him and I couldn’t and still can’t shake off the feeling that Bayle is some sort of Omen like the twins.
every time jack says "this character is a mimic" i start cheering i love this channel man
5:45 I love the brief moment where you try to stay serious after that. I was NOT expecting a your mom joke while discussing Farum Azula lol
Absolutely fantastic, Jack.
I love this format and having item descriptions the entire way through really was the icing on the cake.
10/10 my friend this did NOT disappoint ❤
Was going to leave a like but then you made that comment about my mum.
Now I'll have to share as well 😂
2 questions of mine: if the mimic's inherent arcaneness is why Bayle's communion spells only require arcane, then why doesn't the spell channeling the power of a Dragonkin require any arcane? the implication seems to be that arcaneness will influence how the powers manifest because of the mimic at the core, but that rule seems to be skipped over for the dragonkin.
the other is, well, if he was a mimic, why didn't he drop a larval tear? is it because bayle isnt a perfect mimic of placidusax, while the other tears perfectly mimic other enemies?
The Dragonkin are still using Ice Lightning and are notably failures, it isn’t until they are successful that by relying on innate arcaneness can Bayle use Fire Lightning, which is much closer to the Ancient Dragons Red Lightning. The goal is to try to recreate your target as close as possible, and Fire Lightning is much closer to Red Lightning than Ice Lightning. I don’t know if that’s satisfactory or not.
I had some commenters bring up that the Dragonkin have a hollowed out stomach much like the Trolls, and there is a mimic tear who turns into a Troll in Nokron. It could be that Bayle has some Fire Giant mixed in making his Fire Lightning. Mimicking Fire Giants and Ancient Dragons.
For the second question, not all mimics drop larval tears. And I’m not being cute by saying that but there are mimics in the Eternal Cities that notably do not drop tears. It’s only enemies that transform and the Mimic Balls.
These are good questions though
@16:30 the Dragon Communion Seal buffs dragon incantations, but it does not buff Placidusax's Ruin. Nor does it buff Ancient Dragon Cult incantations. And it scales with Arcane.
imho the Nox are a mimic of the Ashaii. They walk around masked in strange eternally dark cities located along a cursed/sketchy river, and they practice weird heretical arts.
From the first moment we went to Siofra River, I'm like "oh this is Asshai".
Now it all makes sense. I've always wondered what made the Greater Will punish this kingdom and forced them underground. The Finger Slayer Blade was not enough reason for them to be punished, or rather the FSB came after as the next solution. It was Bayle all along and the attempt to remove a god to place their own. What a grand theory!
"So, if anything, they're also both right handed" 13:12
Idk why but that made me chuckle
The mimic angle makes a great deal of sense. Subbed.
I admire your theory since you've been the first person i've ever seen making that HUGE conections between Bayle and the Dragonkin. But your theory is mayorly flawed. For starters;
1) Placidussax was dormant and already had lost a head before he even fought Bayle, implying that the God of the dragons left them even before Bayle's treason
2) Bayle can't possibly be an invader, since his attack on Placidusax is usuaally spoken off as a revolution or a betrayal
3) Bayle is prehistoric, he's way older than the Nox could ever be and it makes no sense for him to be made by people far younger than him, moreso it looks as if the DragonKin were based on Bayle since i highly doubt the Nox could ever reach Farum Asula and Bayle was the next best thing after Placidusax.
3) Bayle's heart describes it as "Horn like GRAVEL" not "Gravel like HORNS" his heart simply resembles horns but it clearly states they're grave scales instead. Disregarding Crucible allegations or "non gravel scale having" allegations since at least hos heart is eternal. There are others but i forgot rhwm midway through writting this
Bro rlly compared an eternity nap to a normal night's sleep 😄 Love the video gang!
So comforted to be watching a new theory from you, Jack! Thank you for putting up with my whinging since the DLC's release. Thanks for being a shoulder and an inspiration! I'll comment further when i'm done with your video. Watching now!
I disagree. well sort of. Bayle originally could walk and fly, thus there is no reason why Dragonkin soldiers shouldn't be complete and if Nox could use crucible on Bayle, they should probably be able to replicate it for soldiers too. Not to mention if he was never part of ancient dragons, it couldn't be considered "betrayal"
I think you above all doubts proved there is connection between him and soldiers and also Nox, but more likely Bayle is original and Dragonkin Soldiers are created by Nox based on him (that's why they are crippled too). Maybe Nox helped him heal after his battle or maybe even temporarily captured while he was weakend.
As for why he betrayed or why he didn't have stone scale? Crucible by nature change one physique so that would explain why he is different and for alienated angsty teenager to rebel it also kinda make sense.
I don't think the timeline adds up. The dragonkin have only seen the false night sky, since they live underground. They live underground because the greater will banished the nox underground, for some great crime. If bayle would be the nox' pretender to the elden throne, would that not be the great crime? So that would suggest that Bayle (vile Bayle!) would be crrated before the dragonkin soldiers. That seems odd to me.
Also, Bayle has offsping. No other mimi tear creatures can reproduce, so that seems off too.
A couple thoughts to augment your already convincing case!
Dragonscale Flesh: "... inverted scales said to grow on aged dragons."
Dragon Communion Flesh: "An imitation of dragonscale flesh created by human hands..."
Another thought: Bayle may have been a specific kind of mimic. A Shadowbound Beast turned Baleful Shadow assassin!
Ranni's assassin is called a "Baleful Shadow" and Blaidd says "[Old Iji] Told me I'd bring nought but bale to Lady Ranni."
Perhaps Placidusax offended the Fingers somehow similar to Ranni.
I can agree to this for sure. Always had a feeling the Nox got their "would be Lord".
Bayle is VASTLY older than the Nox. I could maybe see it the other way around, with the Nox trying to recreate Bayle, but the time lines just don't match up.
What is the evidence that Bayle is older than the Nox
On the GEQ & the Girl + 3 wolves statue...
Melina gives us Torrent, and the wolf ashes.
Melina is burnt and bodiless.
Torrent is burnt and bodiless. (Yes, he has burn marks that are denoted as such in their texture file naming!)
The wolves are emblematic, if not literal, of Melina's past. Torrent was hers.
I'm not convinced of the timeline with the GEQ/Melina (are they one and the same? or more like Messmer with one sealed in the other's being?) being the fled god of Placcy but... there's certainly something going on there.
Excellent video, by the way! I was really on the fence about this, but I think its incredibly compelling that Bayle came from Nox experimentation and is their "failed Lord" candidate, despite being sort of their ultimate creation. Interestingly enough, the Fissure lines up with Nokron and the underground giant lake area if you combine the DLC and TLB maps... and the mountain is just right nearby (as well as Greyoll and dragonbarrow).
Actually, you get the wolves from Renna, who got them from Torrent's former master. That doesn't dissuade your theory but still worth noting.
@@VAL420 If by Renna you mean Ranni, then yes, I misspoke (typed) - my brain made a shortcut between associated concepts
Maybe the dragonkin are based on Bayle.. maybe even made with some of his parts like his missing leg..
Queelign has a bowl cut therefore he's mimicking not only bowls but Stuart the Oreo enjoyer as well. As you can see his incantations require only single stuff creme to cast.
Brother, until Patches being here is explained, everything is connected😂
Dragonkin are 100% a reference to Evangelion, humans attempting to create a mimic of a God to fight a God.
This is brilliant, never would have made those connections. I was hoping that casting law of regression had some kind of event during the Bayle fight, but I guess not. Would be great if it was like a secret cheese way of completing the fight where he turns back into a mimic tear and gives up or dies.
I think there is a further connection here. He has the omen horns like the omen. This connects the crucible, the fell omen and the fell god (fire). Arcane is a property of both intelligence and faith, it always was sort of a mixture of the both. Also, when discussing bayle, he is always outlined as betraying his dragon brethren. So I think that throws out your whole Nox mimic connection, as this would imply he was born a dragon or born from them. Its most likely that bayle was a dragon born with the omen curse, and from the that bloodline birthed other omen like drakes, as he and mated with greyroll. The omens were hunted by the omen hunters, the dragons are hunted by those who do dragon communion. You will also notice that almost all of the drakes have horns or feathers on their body unlike their dragon counterparts.
Was the Nox's attack on Placidusax the thing that caused them to catch the "the ire of the Greater Will" and ultimately be crushed?
If the Gloam eyed queen is their god, and she was chosen by the two fingers, that would lead to her being a vessel of the Greater Will.
Also, depending on how you read The Ruins Greatswor's description, it states Farum Azula was struck by Meteors, and that might have been the reason it was left in the sky, would onyx lord's have been involved in this attack?
If thats true than the Onyx Lords betrayed the Nox, being the ones responsible for its state now as alluded to by Eternal Darkness spell.
Hey Jack, interesting theory here, I am wondering why this idea of mimicry is t reversed? I.E. the dragon kin being a mimic of Bayle, and the arcane being innate to dragons while the faith requirements to the ‘mimic’ dragon spells is literally faith that these spells are imbued with in order to function (like praying that they will work). Idk I’m kinda wasted rn
Great video, I like this style more than the "storytelling" because of how many lorevideos I watch, I like them shorter and succinct. I like your connection between "God slain" having to be related to empyreans and that Placidusax was the lord of the Gloam eyed Queen - and that in my mind undermines completely the idea that Melina is the Gloam eyed queen. IF there is a connection between Melina and the GEQ in my mind it has to do with whatever curse the Hornsent hexed Marika with after her betrayal against them.
The story-telling videos are amazing, don't give up that style, please! But the raw fact videos are also great. You're my new favorite lore youtuber.
Respectfully disagree,
if Bayle & the drakes were artificially created by the Nox, they would not just be refered to as "lowborn" but outright false .
Great video still, more out there theories are great to see
(ed:tho i think you are onto something with the similarities, Bayle was likeley not the creation of the Nox rather their inspiration)
Loving this video so far but there is one thing you didn't consider.
Bayle rebelled against Placidusax, they FOUGHT. They had a battle, and both were left VERY injured.
Both Bayle and Placidusax are very injured, and if you notice, Bayle has two of Placidusax's heads attached to his body...
The Shaman village might offer some credibility to the theory that Marika shattered the Elden Ring out of grief.
Her whole deal with the two finger was probably ‘Never seeing a loved one die’ after the horrible things done to the Shamans.
Couldn't be a simpler explanation that the dragonkin soldiers are semi-successful imitations of Bayle?
I definately see Jack as having elden ring pictures all over his house with red lines and crosses layered up with soup and poo thrown all over them. Definately up there with timdiggety
With all the horns Bayle could've been a Hornsent creation o.o
I don't think the Nox created Bayle. The Nox were most likely trying to create a mix of both Ancient Dragons and modern dragons. The Dragonkin Soldiers have long white arms similar to the Ancient Dragons and they have 4 segmented wings just like the Ancient Dragons. Bayle and modern Dragons only have 2 wings with no arms except Bayle has 2 arms with no hands.
Bayle has no stone scales bc he was born an Omen ie cursed, just like Mogh/Morgott while Placidusax was more like Godwyn ie born Not Cursed.
This also explains why Bayle is so connected to Arcane, Mogh and Morgott also have connections to Arcane as their weapons require Arcane to wield. The Omen Blood which Bayle seems to have some off, is enhanced by Arcane.
Also when we meet Placidusax, he is in a similar pose to the two fingers, his head standing erect straight up into the sky suggesting he is waiting for a signal from an Outer God, not an Emperyan.
I got mimics. I got mimics on my mimics. I got mimics on my eyeballs.
while I dont think the GEQ was necessarily Placidusax's god, I'm amazed by the other connections and I think you implicitly answered a major question: the identity of the fingerslayer blade. If the sacred relic sword was physically made from radagon, given the design similarities, and running with the Nox trying to destabilize Placidusax's era, the fingerslayer blade could have also been made of the god of that time period. Granted it would be strange for this to be the case when his god is 'fled' and not said to have been killed, but it also seems too conspicuous that those weapons are clearly made from individuals, one being a god.
Amazing video as always man but I do want to say I am not convinced that Bayle is a mimic
I want to present the idea that Bayle was in fact something like Seethe - a dragon born without scales. Maybe possibly due to the crucible? As he is born with horns in his body and heart which may explain the lack of scales and the presence of horns instead. I do love the connection between the Nox and Bayle but I'm not convinced of the relationship you presented just yet. I that the Nox knew of Bayle and his treachery then used him and his blood and whatnot to make the Dragonkin Soldiers in contrast to your idea of them making Bayle themselves and subsequently the Dragonkin Soldiers. This will also explain why the Dragonkin soldiers have SO MUCH similarities to Bayle as Bayle was their test subject they took samples from, experimented with, and created the Dragonkin Soldiers
If you have the time, I'd love to know your thoughts on this. Very very excellent video and I am a big fan of your work and the way you weave things together!
EDIT: I want to add in as well that this might also be the case for albinurics. It is from Bayle's sampling that may reason why Albinurics are pure arcaneness
EDIT 2: The Nox taking a sample of Bayle of some sorts and using it to then make the Dragonkin, Albinurics, and Mimics can also explain why they inherited Bayle's lack of legs and other similar imperfections. It's because they took a sample from an already maimed being so the products were also maimed/legless
The mom joke got me good 💀
God I'm so glad we are finally able to put a pin in who the heck The Gloam Eyed Queen was, and it made so much more sense that she was the first God of the Crucible Era. Rather than Melina just branching off to go and do her own thing when nothing really warranted her in doing so. I believe much like the rest of the aspects of the world or the afflictions Marika's children suffered, Melina suffered the affliction of Destined Death. Her job was that she was a magisterial official, basically a spy, an assassin, or an executioner for the Golden Order but when the Elden Ring shattered she saw it fit to chase after her destiny and become a kindling maiden for the worthy Tarnished. Likely during doing her job is when she connects with her Destined Death part, knowing that there needs to be a true death in these lands, she knows that these lands cannot last longer without it.
interesting idea with the ice lightning is that Bayle and the other dragons of the jagged peak seem to use a type of fire lightning, which I suppose to what form their lightning took as a result of their environment.
it is a cool theory, just has a few things bothering me
1- arcane isn't something fabricated by the nox, its a "part of nature" (just like sorceries aren't "made" by astrologers/glintstone sorcerers, they learn it from observing the stars and the primeval current) the oracle bubbles sorcery references that by saying that the claymen that use the spell are trying to perform divinations with their bubbles, also some weapons related to outer gods have arcane scaling so it can be related to curses too
2 - the seath comparison messes the theory up a bit, since he wasn't artificial it makes me believe even harder that bayle was just the ugly duckling of his family and thats why he's so mad
besides that, neat video
1 - I think the oracles are one of the original mimics (my last two videos briefly cover this) which is why they cast their bubbles with their arcane. Only the bubbles and Bayles incants use JUST arcane, so it falls in line for me.
2 - Seath enhances the theory. You can say that Bayle isn’t a mimic but you can’t say that he isn’t mimicking Seath. See what I mean?
Another great video jackius mimickius
Dude! Nice catch on Bayle == Seethe!
I hadn't realized that parallel! Or mimicry rather ;)
To extend that a bit further it makes sense why he still exists in the Lands Between/Shadow. He most likely allied himself with and betrayed his kin for a Lord of Sunlight.
I think bayle is an omen dragon, since he's an ancient dragon with horns, i think his kin aren't immortal because the ancient dragons probably joined marika to make her use the elden ring to remove the immortality and scales of the drakes, which marika was probably happy to do since she hates any creature with horns
Yup I agreed the gloom eye queen was the god of plasiduex. All the snake stuff and dragons are there also why you find apóstoles in that area.The only thing I don’t understand is why when you do the frenzy flame ending you get that scene where we think it’s the gloom eye queen “to deliver what is yours destine death”
I'm going to nit pick here
1: bayle is covered with Rock, molton rock.
2: could also be the fact that the bone Spike is biger.
I think the observation on legs are a bit of a stretch. Bayle has 2 legs, one is fully functional while another is cripple with wound like it was torned away by some powerful force. I think Bayle's missing one of his leg in the fight against Placidusax.
This makes sense because it's very obvious that what the box where missing was vigor. I would be surprised if a smart society like the Nox didn't figure out a way to attempt to transfer vigor into a dragon kin soldier. Not to mention they new about the gate of divinity.
I noticed some things in the last part of the video I'd like to point out:
21:31 The whole "Only Empyreans get the GOD SLAIN banner" isn't necessarily the case, because we don't actually slay Metyr. It teleports away, wounded.
EDIT: On the point of this, Enia the Finger Reader of the Roundtable Hold _does_ describe specifically Marika as a god, as do the Two Fingers. It could really be either Radagon/Marika or the Elden Beast. Or maybe even both, really.
And, more interestingly; 20:40
Could it be that Bayle's original purpose was to slay Placidusax and then take his place? To gain the favor of the God of the Ancient Dragons? To perhaps one day become a lord? A dragonlord? Not sure how this "ancient dragon god's" policies line up with the Nox' wants and values but I thought I'd point it out.
You actually convinced me of something else.
Bayle was born to stone skin dragons and got pissed he wasn't immortal or had red lighting (maybe no lighting at all) do to lack of faith.
Do to being so full of hate he created arcane magic itself, granting him fire lightning and confidence to take over as elden lord.
The two dragons fight, their respective magic types hurts the other more than expected. Bayle, having more hatred (therefore more arcane) was able to inflict more damage than Plasidisacs (long name, hard to spell) who loses faith in his abilities (therefore lower faith requirement) before both inflict debilitating injuries on each other. Bayle either finds the Nox or is found by them, Bayle then gives them one the heads from his back that he took as a trophy alongside his blood. With the head of the elden lord of dragons, and Bayle's hate filled blood the Nox start making combinations of both with their magic and animals. With many failures and close successes, they finally created Bayles dependents, the drakes. Using both faith and arcane to fuel their lighting and fire just like Bayle and Ple (I'm not writing his name again) combined.
Bayle was the first dragon born after time started flowing
Bold of you to assume the nox weren't tryna mimic bayle with the kin soldiers
So, the Nox were only sent underground while Marika was ruling... which happened a really long time after all the dragon stuff. The only reason the Nox wanted to make a lord was to overthrow Marika, so it would make literally no sense for the Nox to go after Placi.
I’ve started to think that Bayle was an omen dragon, which would explain the wings as a crucible incarnation and not looking like other ancient dragons thanks to omen mutations
First x character is a mimic theory I actually agree with. Good stuff. Only issue is he can’t be the oldest dragon if he is a mimic.
What they meant by this in the game is the oldest of the modern dragons, which is true
@@SpremeCalamino such distinction is made. The Dragon Priestess says "oldest, vilest dragon", not "oldest, vilest drake". I think that Bayle came first, and he refused to bend a knee to Metyr, which is why he does not have hands. He is the Crucible Dragon. This is why Bayle is reborn through Dragon Communion, subsuming the consumer from within. Like the Omen seedbed that the Dungeater cultivates to create Omen, Bayle returns again and again, like a primordial disease. This is why Placidusax hates and fears him.
@@SpremeCalamiFlorissax makes a distinction between Dragons and Drakes
@@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962 tell me then why his descendants are called Modern Dragons, and why the other dragons are the ancient dragons. If Bayle came before the ancient dragons then why is he and his lineage not the ancient dragons?
I think the ancient dragons used anti-dragon propaganda and convinced the dragon communers and drake warriors that Bayle is the ultimate goal. Making him seem like the Satan of dragon-kind in the lands between would make sense for them to do. If he was nothing more than father of all drakes then it wouldn’t be as sought after to defeat him, compared to an ancient harbinger of death and evil
@@SpremeCalami tell me why the Dragon Priestess calls Bayle the "oldest" dragon.
If Bayle was the Nox's attempt at usurping the Dragonlord, then that must mean they were banished underground in relation to that event, and thus presumably the target of their Fingerslaying Blade was the fingers of the God Placidusax was Elden Lord to. If that God's assistant fingers were slain that would make a good reason for it to flee.
Regardless it's quite evident the Dragonkin Soldiers are templated off of Bayle.
I’m so glad you differ from most on Placidusax’s god, I was anticipating you would just say it was Metyr or the Greater Will like most others are. People forget that he is an Elden Lord and his god would have been who he was Consort to at the time.
I also wonder though if Ranni is the original Empyrean of the Nox, for whom the mimic Lord was meant to be, or at least one of their children. Because we don’t actually know why she is an Empyrean otherwise if she really were just Rennala’s daughter. And she seems to have a bit more connection to the Nox than any other Carian Royal we know about.
This could obviously be very wrong and she could maybe be only Rennala’s daughter without Radagon’s parentage, but I wouldn’t know that for sure either as I can’t imagine Renalla being able to birth Empyreans.
Crazy theory here but with this Bayle theory maybe Marika has been a mad scientist the whole time, like an Alchemist trying to achieve her Magnus Opus and her Empyrean Children are the final result. We already know the clear ties between her and the Nox.
The four stages of the Magnus Opus are nigredo (the blackening or melanosis), albedo (the whitening), citrinitas (the yellowing or xanthosis) and rubedo, (the reddening, purpling, or iosis). Thought it was interesting that the colours can also be linked, alebdo being the silver mimics, citrinitas being Bayle with his yellowish fire, and the Rubedo being Radagon with his red fire giant hair.
I still don't completely get the timeline of all the events in this game fit together, especially the Bayle / Placi fight but maybe the blackening was Marika's plucking the rune of death from the Elden Ring - hence cause the current world to start rotting in it's stagnation.
There is one problem...if Bayle was a succesful mimic then the Nox would have surely mass produce them and aptempted a invasion of the surface.
They did not, and no dragon soldier was succesful.
Edit: also is not heavily implied by latenna quest that albinauric, and arguably, mimic are sterile? Bayle however, fathered all the drake line.
Astel
@@CARlbeats-j3l Astel is a star that fell. What do you even mean? Astel wrecked havoc to the Nox.
There are a ton of problems with his theory that make it look like a joke but this is one of them, sure.
@@anecro astel is the punishment from the greater will
16:06 I think that line talks about the mimic tear or rather the cut questline for how you acquire it
Ok I am convinced, I see the connections and the chad chin is undeniable evidence. But here's something that you didnt go through that I thought you could answer: Why change from ice lightning to fire lightning? Bayle has no direct connection to the Nox, his connection is through the Dragonkin and the mimic/albinauric/silver tear, that is, they are all artificial lifeforms crafted by someone, some crafted by human hands (not sure if Nox are humans tho, it says albinaurics were created specifically by human hands and I am still not sure what "human" means in Elden Ring but albinaurics seem to have been created by the Carians) and they are made of this same material, silver or quiksilver, which in elden ring such as in alchemy has this special quality of mimicry and creating new lifeforms. But how whoever made Bayle decided to use fire instead of ice? The Nox are, as it was very well laid out by you, connected to the Dark Moon and so with ice and frost. So when did fire enter the process?
I was noticing the other day that Dragonkin Soldiers look like trolls a bit. They have the giant hole on their stomach from the absence of the Fire God and what seems to be remains of troll hair on their heads. They also have some similar attacks and their humanoid bodies are about the same size and shape and there is a troll mimic right beside the chest containing the Fingerslayer Blade and there is also one in Caelid or Dragonbarrow carrying a fire sword. So like the nox have used trolls before and maybe the dragonkin are made of trolls. So maybe Bayle was created in a similar process but instead of using nox ice they used some fire from the Fire Peak trolls? Maybe he's made of actual fire giants? I couldnt figure that out. But it seems like that was crucial for the success of Bayle, like ice lightning dragons didnt work out but the fire lightning dragon worked out for some reason. Also Bayle is not the only dragon with fire lightning, the Jagged Peak Drake also has fire lightning so idk if this means they are related to Bayle or if they both came from the same thing. One last thing which I never gave much thought until now, the only other enemy kind we can find in Jagged Peak are slimes, red lightning slimes so maybe they are like the lightning silver tears? Maybe all slimes are silver tears? Silver tears are kind of like silver slimes idk. Anyway Im drifting a bit away from my question but I would really like to add this to your video and your theory. Great video as always, I love to realize the underlying mimic motif every time I watch your videos.
I was trying something new and didn’t script the video that much, I just had bullet points and item descriptions so I didn’t put in as much care into the work as I should have, so much was missed. I was too excited to share this discover that I couldn’t wait
I may cover this in a future video but here is some answers to your question
Fire Lighting is closer to Ancient Dragon’s Red Lightning than Ice Lightning is. If Bayle had Ice Lightning, not only would we be able to concretely say “that is a mimic” but his legitimacy as a possible usurper would not be as strong. Bayle was able to get Ancient Dragons like Senessax on his side of the conflict.
I have more to add about the dragonkin and trolls but I will save that for a future video 😉
Ive only watched your 3 most recent videos, this one included, but the absolute quality within these and totally new perspectives on some of this lore, especially wuth your inclinations towards the nox and their origins being almost catalytic to everything in the ER story, is just unbelievably fantastic.
Notably, placidusax's Ruin is not a dragon communion spell, due to the fact that he is an ancient dragon and due to the fact that it isn't boosted by other dragon communion boosrs
His horns look like the ripple blade too. Great theory.
I like the idea, especially since this explains why the greater will was pissed af at the nox, but now there's a bigger question for me; why do the drakes have Placidusax heads and not Bayle heads?
the only issue i have is with bayle having no legs, it doesnt inherently mean he was created or born without them, rather that he was injured and could no longer walk.
Bayle have activated immortality by the flames of his heart