Well yes, but his father is Radagon, who is also Marika, so he has two mothers(Marika and Renalla) and a father(Radagon) hense why Morgott's and the narrators dialogue to refer to "all" the demigods as Marika's children, meaning including Ranni, Rykard and Radahn @@tinminator8905
@@AntediluvianGirl It is literally stated in Rykard's Greatrune that Rykard, Ranni and Radahn later became demigod stepchildren after the union of Marika and Radagon. It is not because Marika is Radagon, but because he is the Elden Lord, so all his children are demigods.
9:15 - Melina's hair honestly looks more like a Dull Dusky Pink color than a light brown to me, which makes it seem like a super washed out version of the Radagon children's red hair.
yes if you look at Miq and mal they have red and blonde mirroring their mom and dad messmer has red and Mel has pinkish blonde melina's hair being aLOT like when a redhead goes gray it looks like a pinkish blonde
Yeah if it was orange tinted it would read as brown, but it doesn’t have enough yellow so it reads as light red/pink. A screen set to warm tone mode would probably make it look brown on accident
Petrified wood is stone, actually. More specifically , it's a type of fossil in which all of the original organic components of the cell wall are replicated via permineralization. Still, you make an astute observation, as he does have the appearance of crumbling stone.... Or incredibly old dry, rotting wood...
Radagon isn't a Shaman, Marika is. Radagon was likely his own person before meeting Marika, but Marika merged with him in order to become a goddess without the use of an Elden Lord.
The Abductor Virgins being modeled after the GEQ would follow the pattern of siege weapons being modeled after Marika’s enemies, like the flame chariots and wicker men. Also that bombshell at the end about the two trees blew my mind. I think you’re really on to something there.
1:20 If I had to guess, and advocate for that theory, it would be that Tanith cannot have children with Rykard in his current state; but she is modeled as the Abductor Virgin as a motherly figure for the souls abducted and taken Rykard to join him (them, together), the Serpent King "as family'", as he says himself.
Oh my gosh that is SO GOOD!!!! That’s the first time I’ve heard that explanation of Tanith in that manner regarding them, that’s so much better than “hey everyone my wife’s womb is full of snakes”
@@kitetalesthe abductor virgin's movements also look somewhat like they are dancing, although rather clumsily. Tanith's mask and headdress are also similar to the Virgins, just missing the crown section.
Wouldn’t this place the creation of the abductor virgins to after the shattering? There’s no substancial evidence as to when Rykard met Tanith, and Rykard wasn’t merged(?) with the Serpent until after the shattering, but we have the virgins in both Leyndell and the Academy, very likely used before the shattering as torture and teleportation devices. He wouldn’t have been able to place them there after the shattering without having to put up a fight against the sorcerers in the academy and the leyndell soldiers guarding the capital
@@matheussantos9367 you see abductor virgin's laying waste to soldiers at Mt gelmire. They have been sent out precisely because there is very little left to oppose them. If they were at these places at the height of their respective power you'd imagine they would be taken care of, not left to roam around abducting people. They are reminiscent of the Channelers from Dark Souls, sent out after the various kingdoms' power fell apart to abduct women.
I love all the other mythological details that you brought up & broke down here, so I figured I'd help contribute a few details and resources to check out that you might appreciate: - Miko are a _type_ of Shaman (the Dragon Communion Priestess is the Dragon Communion Miko in Japanese, mirroring the Lord & Miko relationship as Placidusax was the Elden Lord in the time before the Erdtree). The differentiation in English using Shaman for all of them is to ensure that the associations are made correctly, because we don't have that implicit relationship between Shaman & Priestess in the English categorizations of those groups, so localizing has to shift to make sure that the cultural context supports the in-game descriptions most easily. - During the Scadutree's detonation attack its pose perfectly mirrors that of the Scadutree, and it can be done in triple, which mirrors the 3 hammer strikes shattering of the Elden Ring that you see in Radagon's fight. All of the Erdtree Avatars were said to only emerge AFTER the Shattering (on their staff description). The Scadutree itself has massive ethereal petals, and like Malenia the Scadutree revives three times, and after its defeat you receive Miquella's shattered Rune. It is a mirror of everything that the Erdtree experiences, but only the dark facets of that, like the blackness making up the other half of Ragaon/Marika's broken body, as both have to be present for the Elden Ring to be held inside them. - Miquella & Malenia are Empyreans as they're born of a single god (Marika & Radagon are two facets of the same person), thus why the immaculate conception themes would still be applicable here, as she IS Radagon - even if she hadn't split that part of herself away yet in order to become a god, the way Miquella does with St. Trina. This, like the relationship with D & his brother are both very core components of the book *_Night's Master_* by Lee Tanith, which have a lot of core elements to the contextual lore in both *_Elden Ring_* & *_Shadow of the Erdtree_* (which I expect you'll especially appreciate given your previous video), though they mix with themes of Yin & Yang as well as Body & Soul (like with Godwyn & Ranni). - The other facet of this has got its core in a manga that heavily inspired *_BERSERK_* but also a fundamental part of *_Elden Ring_* - which is *_Pygmalio_* where the main character, Kurt is the Prince of Rune on a path to become king by defeating Medusa for what she did to his mother Galatea... only to eventually discover that Medusa is the other half of his own mother's soul, making his task extremely complicated. (While there is the Greek Mythology of that as a foundation, the manga by Shinji Wada has a LOT of details that appear in Elden Ring specifically). - The use of the serpentine mythology with the Godskin Apostles wielding the Godslaying Black Flame, and the connection to Rykard's initial path of the Recusant all set up to how the Erdtree established the symbol of the Serpent as anathema to the Erdtree, forbidding the fire along with the Giants' legacy in order to create the Golden Order. The other elements with the Gloam-Eyed Queen mention that she & Marika are both Empyreans, likely meaning that they're twins born of a single god - the same as every other pair of the Golden Lineage - two facets of the same coin of Light & Shadow, which we see hinted at in Bonny Village with the Tree & Serpent whose remains are both mixed into the same crucible of red & gold in an attempt to turn the prisoners into saints. - We know that Marika represents the eternal Gold and was assigned Malekith as a Shadow by the Two Fingers in order to control her by becoming that missing half, the same way that Lord Godfrey's rage and his Barbarian self as Horah Loux was replaced by Serosh. Thus, after defeating the Gloam-Eyed Queen, Marika the Eternal has to seal Destined Death into her own Shadow - Malekith. - The Gloam-Eyed Queen and her apostles were known for stitching the skin of gods into themselves is the inversion of that practice - they're the Shadow of Destined Death that stitches gold into themselves - which is what we see with the way both Messemer's & Melina's right eyes have been taken out and replaced with one that contains her Gold supporting them as her children - but like with Medusa & Kurt in *_Pygmalio_* - Marika is just as much the other facet of their mother. As such, while Messemer & Melina have the seemingly opposing Serpentine & Kindling traits split completely between them - they're both tools of Destined Death & Shadow - not of Eternal Order & Gold. This is what Marika ultimately needs, because being a god that's puppeted by the Greater Will for eternity is a cursed prison from which she can never escape, hence Melina's quest as your maiden. (Marika & Radagon's Scarseal & Soreseals emphasize that, and why Hewg was given the task to make a weapon for the player Tarnished capable of killing a god). - Lastly, the Death Sorcery-wielding Putrescence Sorcerers in the Catacombs in Shadow of the Erdtree (BonfireVN has a good video of them) also have a small child infant attached to their chests, further emphasizing that parallel to Marika and the Iron Abductor Virgins.
@@kitetales You're more than welcome!! Aside from Lee Tanith's novel *_Night's Master_* & Shinji Wada's manga *_Pygmalio_* the other title I've found that has a lot of thematic context for the game's mythology is Yuki Urushibara's manga *_Mushishi_* - especially when it comes to the Erdtree's themes. I think together, reading through those three have helped contextualize how I look at the character stories & themes in the wider mythology more than anything else. If you're checking out the Scadutree currently, something else neat is that all of the glowing golden amber in the shattered branches & pooled on the ground in its arena fades to complete darkness as soon as it's defeated. Glad to've stumbled across your channel today! :D
Wait!! In the DLC story trailer marika is naked from the waist up!! She JUST turned from being Radagon before ascending to the gate of divinty!! I think Radagon presented himself to the GEQ as her lord and when she was at the gate of divinity she was betrayed and marika took the golden strands from her and became god instead of her. I think the gloam eyed queen was the chosen empyrean of the fingers at the time but marika usurped her. And the fingers just rolled with it because the elden ring needs it's vessel now no matter what given what happened to placidusax. I think the GEQ survived but with great injuries and deformaties leading her to amass the godskins which seem like a roundabout way to have children again because she can't now that she is so badly injured.
Ascending to Godhood at the Gate of Divinity requires a lord and a consort. Miquella would not have needed his consort if that wasn't the case. Marika must have ascended with Radagon as her consort, divesting herself of him as requirement. This would also explain Grandam's "strumpet" insult. She ascended with one man as her consort, but sent him off to war and begun a lineage with Godfrey. Not only that, but Radagon later 'seduced' Rennala, just like the GEQ, only to then later become Elden Lord alongside Marika again. I think the GEQ becoming unable to bear any more children is spot-on. This game has a large theme of duality and parallels. When we see Marika herself crucified inside the Erdtree, she has a spear of destined death piercing her womb, a poetic end for someone who did the same to the previous owner of the rune of death.
except she DID die, but snakes never stay dead, remember? So she goes to the lands between and turns Rykard (& I think at this point Melina as well?) against Marika.
@@brok3nboy I think the GEQ died and was gone because the rune of death allows for Destined Death, meaning death for good. Marika and her actions caused everything, the tree stopped producing sap and there was never enough bodies or souls to throw on the roots that could change that. Cutting off everything from death, and the natural cycle of the world before. I think Rykard and Melina just realized that true death was necessary for the continuation of the world. Marika's entire motivations, as we know from the association with the shaman and the living jars, is to avoid her own death and I think that extended to her children and that avoidance and fear is what corrupted the elden ring.
Don't forget that Radagon gave Renalla the Rune of Rebirth. Marika could have stolen the children and "rebirthed" them (which gets into some really weird territory I am loathe to explore).
Or even Radagon could have impregnated GEQ, stolen the child, and then Marika could've punished GEQ by making her become reborn with Messmer as her children (attempting to remove the base serpent from them).
GEQ could be the abducting virgin that artificially creates the godskins as they are (the snake-like part). And with her entire MO being to skin the last shaman and all of her offspring.... yeah. You could probably graft serpents to babes with shaman flesh and she _is_ from that age. If she's a hornsent that'd be wild.
if you think about it, many of her children appear to be rebirths of her enemies. Like Mohg and Morgott's curse as omens appears like it's the good ol cycle of rebirth that they enjoy in place of true death, but with karmic punishment making it so her mortal enemies were then reborn as her children. Malania was born afflicted with rot like a rebirth of the god of the burnt Temple of the Bud. And Miquella... he seems a lot like a repeat of her.
@@Tasytotand Godwyn's fate almost seems like the cruel joke version of rebirth, doesn't it? The golden child, dead but not dead enough to be rebirth through the Erdtree - instead spreading this mockery of order, this mimicry of life that is Those Who Live In Death, like a disease through the very Erdtree's roots. It even spreads into the Shadowlands, one of few ways to pass that cloaking veil.
I also think it makes sense how we see the Giants' corpses up in the Mountaintops- skewered with big branches. That's Marika's power at work, and she is the one described as having defeated the Fell God. It would also explain why the Trolls' chests have those tree roots in them holding a tablet. I'm guessing they used to have big faces in their chests like the Fire Giant, but after they switched sides Marika used her power to place that in them instead.
Maybe Godrick was onto something. It’s the same idea as the sainted jars it’s just a way different application. It’s like us trying to figure out how they actually built the pyramids in Egypt. The actual process to divinity has just been lost in time. Godrick is actually some pretty good foreshadowing to the jar process we learn about in SoTE.
I am telling you, the Fell God plays a MAJOR role in the story, and something the community never looked at is it's connection to the Sun, because there's many references in Fell God lore to it. The Sun has to have been a significant and more powerful entity back then according to the Sun Realm shield, which is such an underrated lore item. I feel like the Fell God is an old Sun God who was replaced/vanquished.
perhaps the fell god was placidusax's god and the war with the fire giants was also the war against the ancient dragons, allied by their shared god. would also explain why the flame of fell ruin was never extinguished, perhaps that is the source of the lands betweens sun, and it would be impossible to extinguish. the golden order became a rule in the lands between, unable to be removed only changed or sealed without influence, so perhaps similarly the sun and flame became rule and that is why it was guarded and sealed away in forbidden lands.
This also makes sense because when we think of the sun... We experience it as light and gold. But really, it's a giant ball of fire. The golden order is a "false" sun. It's the sun as perceived by eyes without knowledge. The true nature of the sun is far more complex and nuanced than just "lololol it's gold light".
I think the Abductor Virgin's crown is called a "kokoshnik" - it is a type of Russian crown. The rare singing bat lady wears a golden kokoshnik and I think she is found along with the more common variants of the bat ladies along the Ruin-Strewn Precipice in Liurnia of The Lakes. Edit: Typo and thank you for the ❤
@@kitetales My pleasure! Looks like the bat ladies' proper name is a "Chanting Winged Dame" which could possibly indicate nobility (the title of Dame). And, on the topic of wanting children, but being unable to; maybe you should take a closer look at the lament the ladies are singing: Latin Lyrics: O, locus ille, beatus quondam, nunc deminuit. Nos, destinatae matribus, nunc fiunt turpes. Ploravimus lacrimavimusque, sed nemo nos consolatur. Aureum cui irascebaris? English Translation: Alas, that land, once blessed, now has dimished. We, destined to be mothers, now become tarnished. We have lamented and we have shed tears. But no one consoles us. Golden one, at whom were you angry? (Taken from the Elden Ring Wiki) The line "Nos, destinatae matribus, nunc fiunt turpes." = We, destined to be mothers, now become tarnished. seems very interesting in my opinion and the emphasis of mothers in the game. I really enjoy watching your Elden Ring videos and your research into the lore.😊
Wait ... Could the Gloam Eyed Queen be ... Marika's sister ? Not as blood related, but like, the other succesful Jar Saint ? Two Empyreans born from the same process ?
I was wondering this as well. Considering an identical snake skin is found in Bonney Village and the Temple of Eigley, she could have been a Shaman that was merged with a snake.
There's also the unique tree in Bonny Village where we pick up the "O Mother" gesture. Could Marika's pot have been a Shaman that was merged with a tree?
@@kitetalespossible since the Godskin incantation sigil is one to one with Metyr’s arena on the map. Both representing a fingerprint, Marika could have picked the side of elden beast while GEQ could have been allied to Metyr.
Just a quick observation about the little sealing tree; it doesn't just look like the Scadutree, it actually specifically _only_ looks like the part of the Scadutree that seems to be "choking" the other part that is leaking sap. It is even twisting in the exact same way; look at the sealing tree, it is only bending sideways, with no part of the trunk going upwards like with the Scadutree. I just noticed this as you showed the side-by-side, so no thoughts on the implications, but it seems relevant/important considering that the appearance of the Scadutree has been a massive question mark ever since the original announcement image.
That is SO interesting. I don't think it necessarily disproves the theory outright, given that the "choking" tree burning is what gives access to the divine gate, aka the gate which, we assume, allowed Marika to become a god. She took a path and sealed it so no one else could. Maybe this is why Miquella needed to get rid of everything, his body, his fate, his love? Because he didn't want to use Messmer as kindling since that would go against his "Age of Compassion" thing? I still think that the idea that the Scadutree has been "hurt" before stands. The way it leeks gold sap is very reminiscent of, well, a wound. The idea that the Scadutree might've been the tree of the previous order, and that Marika created a new, golden tree to replace it, makes sense to me.
Godskin Noble Hood : Nobles are the most ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology. So the most exalted of apostles (who serve GEQ) are being granted a privilege/ability. To become more snake-like.
@@Kryptnytif by separate origins you mean before they were conjoined within a jar, then yea sure. But as far as this subject is concerned they have always been the same person.
No, not the exact same but I get what you are trying to say. You mean that they can also send out golden shockwaves with their attacks. The skill of Marika's Hammer is specifically flying up in an unnatural pose and then smashing down, called Gold Breaker, named as the heroic Radagon's signature attack.
@@tinminator8905 yeah I know about that one, but doesn't Radagon do something similar in his fight? I swear I remember him doing a similar move but I could be wrong hahaha
@@twodumbgamers9285 He does almost exactly, yea. The twirl around then slam into the ground with a golden explosion mirrors the Ash of War near spot on.
To be exact it's Marika's Hammer which he uses in his fight. I'm guessing the black knights mirror Marika more than Radagon since Radagon most likely fought with a greatsword most of the time, not a hammer (ofc before you meet him, after you do he uses Marika's hammer).
Yes I'm so curious about that, it was always such an interesting design and now we can see it matches mesmers spear incredibly well. But then the timeline doesn't really explain him being around during the war w the giants so maybe they come from marika or radagon
i actually had a similar theory prior to the release of the game!! i had theorized that radagon was sent over to seduce the GEQ and that resulted in Messmer and Melina. It would make Messmer’s story even more tragic, as he’d be massacreing what is essentially his own people on behalf of who isn’t even his actual mother. The serpent connection also ties into the snakey apostles and nobles, and would also explain Melina’s gloam eye and destined death connection without her actually being the original GEQ. Haven’t watched the whole vid yet but excited to see your take! As i watch the video-I don’t agree that the Hornsent despised snakes. the hornsent says Messmer’s face was “sublime,” and we know the hornsent praise blending of life, which the serpent also is. Messmer’s curse could be seen as crucible-borne as well. But I could be wrong. Thinking now about the idea of “virgin” Marika. The hornsent grandam is very hung up on the whole “strumpet” thing. Maybe Marika was supposed to be pure and the existence of Messmer/her other kids is an insult? Also, regarding the rune of death, it actually used to be part of the elden ring, not the GEQ herself-it was just what gave her her power. Maybe Marika and GEQ were meant to share? Or Marika won the god race against another jar saint? We know GEQ was another empyrean… ok back to watching Finally finished watching and I have a LOT to say but this comment is already way too long. Bottom line is very cool and plausible theory. Marika’s forced sealing of things that aren’t necessarily “evil” but could be her downfall also brings to mind Gwyn’s treatment of humanity’s dark soul and his own poor snake son. (Messmer’s eye socket looking like the darksign…) Ok well anyway great video!!!!
@@kitetales yes exactly!! and actually, the godskin noble something does mention that the animal traits are related to the crucible. maybe GEQ was another jar saint, one made in bonny village using the flesh of the shed snake skin (explaining her snake traits), but she actually believed in the jar cause and the crucible unlike marika, so she pulled the ol’ “rennala maneuver” and had kids with her to use them as tools?
I LOVE your idea that Marika was supposed to remain "pure" and not reproduce. It makes perfect sense - if you've attained the perfect blend of life, why muddy it at all?
To add weight to eiglay’s shape shifting abilities, Mesmer can also shapeshift. When he does, he becomes the abyssal serpent. So it isn’t surprising that eiglay, if truly messmer’s biological mother, could do the reverse and take on human form from her serpent form. If she did, just like messmer, she would have mini snakes all over her body, just as depicted by the abductor virgins. In his human form, messmer has snakes all around his body.
OMG. not only can you see the godskin’s big hood in the metal details on her neck area under the big jewel that matches theirs, when Abductor Virgin’s “snake womb” is closed, the outside metallic details literally look just like the stomach/womb in the trailer we see Marika reach into. You totally nailed this and it was in the little details the entire time….this game is incredible I’m blown away
You are for sure on the right track looking at these ancient statues artifacts and art. Miyazaki & his dev team traveled Europe & the Middle East for research. That’s why I like TarnishedArcheaology as well….I’m dumbfounded…so much of this game is showing not telling. The lore can really be right in front of you all along….the costuming alone of all these characters was clearly done with real intent top to bottom. it really gives so much lore & depth just analyzing the small details of every NPC, every enemy every main character is worth combing over. WOW amazing video yet again Kite the EGG-LAY stuff was great too. I was waiting for this lore & you delivered, you have a fan in me ❤ -one of the “other” demographic😂🌈
@@sharkt00th666Not only that even the placement/locations where you find items or enemies have lore or clues to them. Elden Ring really is Miyazaki's magnum opus.
@@anonfinally1692 YES!!!! I can’t believe so many “fans” say there’s no lore or it’s not interesting. Like just say you want all the info freely handed to you mindlessly…this game doesn’t hold your hand in combat in any aspect so why should it went it comes to the lore…Miyazaki wants it to be a scavenger hunt of sorts. I would even go so far to say he’d want the game played with a notebook at the ready, that’s how in-depth everything goes &only gets deeper as you progress! I think it’s so cool the fanbase can continue to discuss the Gloam Eyed Queen who haunts the narrative when she isn’t even a boss, isn’t even visible! That’s how you know he’s cultivated something really special, this is more than the cliche fromsoft hard bosses it’s about the world itself, yearning for new info to unlock the mysteries and histories of it, and isn’t that so perfect for an open world game? His first no less?! A flawless masterclass in world building that we will talk for years to come, like how people talk about GRRM’s novels
One thing is that I’m pretty sure that Melina being able to use herself as kindling to burn the Erdtree is more to do with her being a finger maiden than her parentage. My vague understanding of Vyke’s lore is that he took the frenzied flame specifically so that he wouldn’t have to use his maiden as kindling.
Just finding you through this video. Such an interesting concept so properly researched and gloriously narrated! Seriously, your cadence, tone, and powerfully serene voice fit everything so well! You have a new fan
Moving forward, any theorizing about the Gloam Eyed Queen should be using this video as its starting point. The work you put into this feels so foundational for fully understanding who this character is and what she means to the story cannot be overlooked. The only thing I would add is that the Black Flame Monk Ashes are dropped by my precious little silver blobs: the Stray Mimic Tear 😉
Regarding your comment connecting the Blackflame Monk Ashes to the Stray Mimic Tear, there are already some curious connections to the GEQ and the Nox civilization out there, so I'm sure there's more to explore with that. We definitely can't overlook that detail.
This would explain two aspects of Messmer's flame that always puzzled me - 1) It is possessed of some form of 'spirituality', as Fire Knight Wego uses it to resurrect bodies but cannot call souls to inhabit them. Since the GEQ's Black Flame has since become Destined Death, which was used to kill Godwyn's soul and Ranni's flesh, it seems to have once been able to perform true Death, but Messmer's flame can only relate to half of that function and has no command over souls, since his heritage has long been supressed. 2) The visual appearance of his flames. From the trailer, some people were speculating that he had some connection to Aberrant sorcery since his flame has what seemed to be black thorns emerging from it. However, this theory would make them black serpents. Also, love the themes BTW, caught the Final Battle in piano when you were discussing Radagon and the Godskin Apostles theme when you were discussing Melina's parentage
I am still not sure there is a real connection between Radagon and the Fire Giants other than his red hair. Or I am missing any real evidence how they are related? In all his incantations and fights he never uses any fire related abilities. The GEQ might have been related to the Fire Giants instead.
@@hipsternesto Radagon doesnt use any Giant stuff because he is ashamed of his heritage. All Fire Giants have red hair and that undoubtably links Radagon to them as a potential descendent. We also know that people of Giant descent can come in ALL sizes. Look at the sword that Dung Eater uses. Its the spine of a smaller giant.
Melina and Messmer being cursed with flame is quite interesting and can actually fit into this theory if we take into consideration: Radagon’s children with Marika are cursed. Malenia with rot, Miquella with eternal childhood, Messmer with his flame and Melina with her flame. we can all agree that Melina and Messmer view their flames as a curse. and we know they were born with these curses. therefore it stands to reason that Radagon is their father. although Radagon is their father. for this theory we can speculate that the mother of Messmer and Melina is the GEQ. if their mother is the GEQ, the bearer of the black flame, that would surely explain their curses being directly related to fire. Their names starting with M is a certain like the family tree of Marika but how do we know that Messmer and Melina weren’t Re-Named when Marika stole them from the GOQ. even if Melina was the GEQ, how do we know that her memories were not erased in some way. such as Rya with the tonic of forgetfulness. Maybe Melina’s curse could have been destined death it’s self and it was removed from her body which would make more sense considering that Black flame and Messmers flame are used as weapons but not Melina’s flame as a Kindling maiden. evidence to support this is that she uses the Blade of calling which was the template for the Black knife assassins dagger and they use Destined Death. Melina also has a very similar move set to the Black Knives when she assists the Tarnished during the Morgott Boss fight. Feel free to add to this theory and ask questions. this theory certainly makes sense in my mind but i may not be explaining it as clearly as possible.
@@Bleilock1lmao then you either don’t have an ear for music or you’re just choosing to act like a pathetic troll, my guess is the latter. Stfu 🤣💀
@@Bleilock1Radagons theme is absolutely referenced in messmers theme, just like how Promised Consort radahns theme contains a leitmotif from Mohgs theme
If he were raised to believe Marika is his Mother, of course he'd say that. Him catching/correcting himself and referring to her by name, while dying, is what's interesting.
@@kimberlyh.1090 that wasn’t really the point though. If the claim is that his mother is never referenced by name, then we have an incident of it happening
@@GamesCoffeeCollecting She's also mentioned to be his mom on at least one item, can't remember which one though. Which, I guess, we're supposed to assume is a lie?
Your work is truly impressive. I had come up with the same theory independently (posted it on reddit and in the comments of some yt videos) and was shocked and happy to see the same theory detailed with good pieces of evidence from the game.
@@kitetales This was my original theory. Wish I had sent it to you sooner! Marika by birth was a red haired powerless shaman, from the bottommost sect of the hornsent society. But she was special because she was chosen as an empyrean from the shaman people by her two fingers. Marika in her desperation, fear, and anger towards the hornsent manifested this other self that is Radagon. She was then instructed by her two fingers to use Radagon to commit an act of blasphemy which would later grant her significant power.. Now the hornsent were an advanced civilization that worshipped the crucible, created the gates of divinity by blending life forms together to emulate the crucible, and ultimately succeeded in accessing the powers of the crucible. The hornsent were strongly connected to the godskin. It was the godskin that aided the blending of lifeforms by skinning and making up those gates of corpses. The leader of the godskin, the golden haired gloam eyed queen was the god of the time and represented the crucible. You see crucible like features on the goskin nobles and apostles (tail, crucible like incantations etc). The godskin also had some kind of association with serpents as we have seen a godskin noble at the temple of Eglay. Here is what Marika and her two fingers plotted: Marika would use Radagon, a powerful and charming champion to seduce and have an affair with the gloam eyed queen. Once seduced, the gloam eyed queen birthed two red haired children, Messmer and Melina. Marika was also bestowed upon a powerful shadow by the two fingers, Maliketh. Once the children were born, Marika would use the opportunity to assassinate the gloam eyed queen using Maliketh. Marika would then pluck out the golden rune of the gloam eyed queen as shown from the trailer. This rune resided within the golden hair of the gloam eyed queen (You see that the body from which the hair is removed looks like godskin and the sky in the scene looks like a golden sky is about to replace a previous gloam colored sky). Marika would therefore assume godhood and would become the golden haired queen. The seduction, the affair and the betrayal is what lead to gold arising through Marika. And so was shadow born. I think shadow here also refers to the two children Messmer and Melina. Messmer inherited the black flame (Black pyrefly) and serpentine natures from his mother and Melina inherited the gloam eyes and destined death. Marika would seal both of these away. The golden braid that Marika left to the grandmother before she left her village forever, which is her prayer and confession, is simply a part of the same golden hair that she tore off from the gloam eyed queen for the great rune. Marika became a golden haired god but Radagon would remain red haired. The red hair reminded Marika of her sin which is why Radagon always hated his hair.
I was skeptical reading the title but after watching the whole video I am completely sold and love this theory. My biggest gripe with the DLC was the lack of Melina lore, just a line saying she's Messmer's younger sister, but this context that they are actually the children of the Gloam-Eyed Queen and Radagon seems to make so much sense. Melina inheriting her gloam eye from her mother and having it sealed away by Marika. Also you theorize that Melina's purpose was to use to the fell god's flame to burn the Erdtree but I listen to her dialogue every time I play the game and I believe she makes it quite clear that her original purpose has been lost, it can no longer be fulfilled or does not make sense to fulfill. When she arrives with you in Leyndell she separates for a time to search out a new purpose for herself which she decides is to use herself as kindling so you can penetrate the Erdtree and I really like the idea of Melina escaping her adoptive mother's plans and creating her own destiny for herself. Which still begs the question for me of what was her purpose that Merika charged her with at the time of her birth at the base of the Erdtree that can no longer be accomplished? Or maybe Melina is aware that the Gloam-Eyed Queen is her true mother and her purpose comes from her, maybe GEQ and Radagon had her in Leyndell close to the time of Merika's betrayal, maybe her purpose was one of revenge but the thorns thwart that so she resolves to help the tarnished who will by extension achieve that revenge? Also one last fun fact for this theory, Melina's faded pink hair color is what you get when you mix the colors of gloam and Radagon's hair color, if you wanna try it for yourself I sampled the colors and got the hex codes of 61597D and 793311 respectively.
It also kinda explains the last voicelines of Messmer after his fight... as you said; maybe he knew she wasn't her mother but still saw her as such, but then at the end of his life he finally dropped the farce and called her by her name accepting reality, not only that she wasn't his mother, but that she didn't really care about him at the end.
This makes complete sense. Gloam-Eyed Queen is tied to snakes and black fire. Messmer has the abyssal serpent, and both Melina and Messmer utilize fire. The parallels are completely there.
There are many in game details that point to Messmer and Melina being the first children of Radagon and Marika, in a time when Radagon was not known to have existed, hence the connection to the Virgin Mary, it was probably a lie told by the Golden Order, that her first children were Miracles, born of one person with no sire. I believe there are too many clues that point to their heritage being exactly that. Messmer is like Adam and Lucifier. Being the firstborn of a god, corrupted by the Base serpent due to the curse that is being born to Maradigon, like all their children. Melina uses the same incantation her mother used when she blessed the shaman village (which means her and Messmer likely witnessed Marika’s hallowed goodbye to her home). I’d sooner see the Virgin Abductors as another blasphemous act against the Order, making them look like a mother cradling her child (like the Marika statue only the snake infested cage/womb is use to invoke the idea that Marika on the inside is impure and full of evil), while also representing Rykard’s “Serpentine demeanor.” As you said Rykard is not capable of reproducing regularly, so the Abductors are his surrogate birth mothers, as those taken are turned into Man-Serpents. Idk your theory seems sound, but it leaves out anything that could argue against it for the sake of being correct. Not to mention Messmer has red hair and almost the exact same theme as Radagon in order to help us connect the dots. Such as there are two born to Marika every time, Messmer & Melina, Morgott & Mohg, Malenia & Miquella.
@padrenuestre my point would be that Godwyn was theorized as being the brother to Mogh and Morgott. Just pointing that out. I just want to know if Miquella is Ranni doll. Before the game was released there was talk about making ranni a conjoined twin. After seeing Miquella in the dlc, it makes my pre-dlc theory seem more plausible.
If we assume that the shadow tree was burned and that the land of shadow used to reside in the lands between, it would start to make sense why Layndell is covered in ash.
Meant to do some work alongside this but you dropped one of the best elden ring theories i've ever heard, that i had to stop and lock-in. i really hope you get more reach because your theories are always amazing and remind me of the beauty behind the ambiguity of these games, great work!
I dont know how relevant it is here, but two dialogues that Melina has when speaking of Seamster Boc (aren't widely discussed for whatever reason) makes an interesting case for Melina wondering if being born of a mother means one behaves like Boc does, who cries out of the desire to hear his mother say that he's beautiful, to be reassured. (Plus asking the Tarnished to speak to Boc, noticing how happy it makes him, which is super sweet)
27:10 the suppressing pillar may not be a spiral on the outside but I’m pretty sure if you ride the lift you do slowly rotate if you look at the compass so you are spiralling like a corkscrew while you ascend to the top
I think the most important part of this puzzle is the dlc story trailer. When the trailer talks about "a seduction and a betrayal", it shows Marika walking up to the divine gate, pulling some golden threads from some sort of cloth, and holding them up to ascend to godhood. I think the golden threads represent hair/gold/grace/runes, that the cloth is a godskin swaddling cloth, that the cloth held an infant, ie Marika's child, and that she sacrificed him/her to ascend to godhood. The child was born of a "seduction", hence the hornsent grandam calling Marika a "Strumpet". We know Miquella had to divest himself of his empyrean flesh to ascend to godhood, and Marika did it as well, albeit differently (her child is her flesh and blood after all). This also thematically gives weight to how Marika's curse is how every child of hers is "cursed" to be imperfect, as that is fitting for someone who sacrificed her first-born to attain power. I also think that this first-born child would be the one featured in the walking mausoleums.
woah! the theory that marika sacrificed her child to ascend godhood makes sense with what the ghost says near pilgrimage church, they talked of demigod cradled in a mausoleum and marika's unwanted child. initially, I thought it was about messmer.
Don't think it's "cloth" but flesh that she'd pulling it out from, like an eye lid and a dead eye. Betting on it being the previous age's god, which is with whom that age's elden ring would reside -- which is something she (/any other empyrean) needs if our own character's ending is anything to go by. Thing is, hornsents call her all sorts of things. And a go to slander for a woman would be of the sxl deviant variety. Figure that the seduction is an ideological one since she usurped their demographic/genetic supremist dominance in the area and decimated their civilization -- a single shaman(=slave/human-sacrifice caste) girl. "Betrayal" could also be a shaman not knowing their place and having the very evil audacity to not get in a jar to potentially become a saint as ordered-- which, getting the vibe that this was the hornsent's equivalent to artificially making a Lord candidate not unlike the nox+friends. But instead of being Numen with a low birthrate and going for artificiant life, they take hornsent criminals, keep their biological supremacy (seamless mending flesh and all that = the horns stay) while mixing them with a docile, subservient shaman sacrifice consciousness -- like Alexander's / the small jar's personality. A rebirth and domination of "evil"/criminal will, random criminals or dissidents all. On the cursed children thing, have you considered the eastern mythology take on it, which _would_ be different from a western one. Like a double edge sword curse of divine spiritual power with side effects rolled up in need to employ that power but also the shame with it's nature, rather than divine intervention 'death upon your 1st born sons' as consequences for your choices by an old testament God. Fromsoft tends to have an overlaying japanese/eastern take on all of their lore, rather than a western one. And the dark souls parallels are....well, _there_ in the entire world build -- Nameless King etc. anyone? If we run with the buddhist ascension take then she can't sacrifice her kid to conquesting appetites and earthly attachments under false pretenses and still ascend . Like miquella, she'd cast things off, attachment & love & desire/appetites(for familial attachment etc. any 'earthly' thing) -- lofty love would remain perhaps, for the transcendent divine laws of existence? If she'd cast off her love like miquella had, then leaving messmer here wouldn't be personal. Like casting off Trina wasn't personal _at that point_ . Like Ranni casting off Blaidd & co. _at that point_ ; _which, while Miquella was dropping off bits of himself in the shadow realm (lol) did Ranni just drop her entire rune on the moon and call it a day??? Anyways_ It doesn't appear as Marika's cast him off, perhaps a family, duty, honor angle with shame/fear for his deformity -- though shame & fear would have been cast away at some point, timeline unclear. She tasked the guy with an eternal war and left him to it, unclear if there was a win condition & he'd not reached it, if miquella ascending would have cleared up Messmer's condition, or if eternal battle(happens in a lot of mythologies with demigods/heroes all over the place) was actually the deal whether he knew it or not -- he's an erdtree-immortal demigod so..... well no still not confident that i even know what that means in this context _miyazaki has done it again!_
That whole bit about the Junji Ito spiral manga made something jump out at me-- earlier today I realised that one of the Glintstone sorceries is literally called Shard Spiral, formed by two comets traveling in an intertwined spiraling shape with one another! Coupled with the information from the Spira incant, that the spiral is a "normalised Crucible current, that will one day form a column that stretches to the gods", this spiral pattern is integral to life in Elden Ring's universe, and is seen everywhere from ancient times to the stars.
Festive Grease directly ties the Golden Order to Dominula Village who already have ties to the Erdtree sigil in the festive garbs. As the grease is made by Erdtree priests. It feels significant.
Hi, i discovered your channel just yesterday and wantwd to say that i was rally intrigued by your "jar goddess" theory and i think it was spot on, also you have a very "storytelly" approach to the lore which is very refreshing to hear since you take the most vague aspects of the lore and create very romantic interpretetion while also not ignoring the most glaring and factual aspects of the lore. That said there are parts of this videos' theory im really not fond of, still there is stuff which i think makes a lot of sense. First of all, i can agree that melina fought alongside marika and messmer in the war against giants, its true that there is no evidence whatsoever, but is a cool image and this way we could finally have an answer for the impalement of the giants, (also is not impossible for marika to have concieved children with radagon while she was married with godfrey) but i dont think its possible for melina to have partaken in the war as the gloam eyed queen. The part about the flame monks is just incorrect, the flame monks were an order created for the tending of the flame marika tried to seal inside the last giant, not as an offensive force that needed to fight it, meaning they could have not have existed prior to the extermination of the giants, and so, the blackflame monks, being a cult that separated from the original fire monks, could not have existed in the war to fight along side the gloam eyed queen. Also the black flame is described as "weakened" after maliketh sealed destined death, and i stand with the part of the community that believes that originally the flame weaved by the gloam eyed queen and the godskins was the destined death flame, and after marika gave that flame to maliketh she left the godskins with a weakend death flame, the blackflame. I like to think that melina was the former bearer of destined death, we know that there's nothing marika fears more than the flame of ruin, and we know that eyes are one of the most important conduits for outer gods influence, so maybe marika pluked destined death from the elden ring and put it in melina's eye socket giving her the gloam eye, sealing death in her trusted daughter while also driving away the infulence of the flame of ruin from within her, giving her the same treatment as messmer. For the abdutor virgins, i think it can be perfectly explained by expanding on your theory, since i believe what you said was believable. We must not forget that the ABDUCTOR virgings were used primarly to abduct people to volcano manor, since rykard used many subjects for esperiments. I think there is also a clear connection between the godskins and the albinaurics, so, what if the gloam eyed queen, after rebelling against marika prepared her apostasy on the depths of the volcano, abducting albinaurics using the virgins and swaddling their flesh in the amniotic sac of the serpent creating her apostles?
Yeah, I agree Messmer is the son of the GEQ and is also Melina's brother. Before the DLC, I was torn between Melina being the GEQ or her daughter but now that we have more information, it has to be the daughter. I do wish we had more info about Radagon and GEQ in the land of shadow. Also the Minoan snake goddess is a very interesting find.
There is a painting of burning Erdtree in the Volcano manor, hinting that the Erdtree has burnt before. This also ties loosely back to the Abductor virgins, since they are mainly Rykards troops.
Good point. Taking this a step further, I guess this could be why the priests who had visions of fire were getting punished as well. It wasn't that they were seeing predictions of The Tarnished burning the Erdtree; it was that they were aware it had happened previously when they shouldn't have been. Heresy indeed.
I cannot quote a reference to this, but I recall hearing a lot of talk about a Great Tree that had predated the Erdtree and the belief that the Erdtree is just a visage standing in place of where the Great Tree had previously been burnt so if those were correct then the painting could have been of that.
But be carefull we also know prophets had visions of the erdtree burining and that they were punished, what is more blasphemous than Rykard having a painting of this heretical talk in his manor? He was after all the one punishing dissidents which most likely brought him in contact with all that heretical stuff until he was one himself.
Her hands were also burned as well. My theory is that the end of the age of plenty was melina being sent to burn the scadutree and her original physical body. But given her flame type only killed herself in body to do. To do it again in the base game meant burning away her spirit as well.
I would kill for a lore collab between you and Smoughtown. I've only seen this video of yours and the one about Marika being the jar saint and I must say I love your attention to detail and how you link things together. Additionally, I personally feel that this is the strongest theory about the GEQ out there, as I share some of your thoughts about the theory of her simply being Melina. That theory makes some sense, but I also found it somewhat wanting in a rather intangible way. But Melina being offspring of the GEQ? Now that just FITS imo. Anyway great stuff, I eagerly anticipate watching more of your work
Considering Messmer’s red hair, possibly connecting him to Radagon, I think it points to him being Radagon and Marika’s child considering that it fits with all of the children they had together being cursed. Malenia’s rot, Miquella’s youth and Messmer’s massive tapeworm. Even have the M naming scheme. Additionally, if Melina is really the sister that was mentioned in Messmer’s kindling, and since her name in the game data is roughly Marika’s daughter, that would also make Messmer’s her son too. Additionally his flame is entirely different from destined death or black flame. No lingering damage. I appreciate the different view on the subject but I think that it is as simple as it is presented as.
Seems like his flame is of "greed". That's a "serpent" thing. Remember - FromSoft decided to drop the whole Round Table lore, cause it was not really important. Yet they kept the part about ugly "snake-human seeex" ritual in the game. I think they are kinda telling us where Mesmer got his snakes and flame.
@@WeAreTheReapersinteresting! I definitely view the omen curse as something coming from the horn sent so it'd be wild if they were responsible for all the fucked up demigods
The putrescent knight is called gloom eyed queen knight, so the names in game files don’t have much meaning. And Marika could have easily changed the names of Melina and Messmer to fit the whole M naming thing
“Yes, gentlemen- and the five ladies watching..” 5:58 🤣🤣😹 Just subscribed! I love the theory, great job on compiling everything in an easily digestible manner.
Ok, so I was actually thinking about the same theory as you. Radagon seducing the GEQ is a cool idea but I eventually found too many problems with it. You mention that none of the items of Messmer directly mention Marika's name. But let's look at some of the references to his mother and him as a child: - "A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow." - So I just don't see how this could relate to the GEQ? It's clearly Marika's doing that he's in the realm of shadow. He also has Marika's seal in her eye. We can see the same sign on her runes, her scarseal items and the top of her version of the Elden Ring itself. - "They will accompany him yet, in his hideous new form, born when he destroyed the grace granted by his mother." - This mentions the very act he does during the fight where he destroys the grace in one of his eyes. The same eye that has Marika's Rune on it. Sure, it could be considered weird that her name isn't mentioned directly but to me it actually seems the opposite. If it was mentioned that "Marika sealed his eye" or "Marika hid him in the land of shadow" that would put more doubt on him being her son, calling her his mother makes it actually more obvious that that is what she is. There's also some things that suggest that the fight with the GEQ was much later. In the Lands of Shadow we see figures of Marika without the infinity sign behind her. The infinity sign suggests that it's her figure as "Marika the Eternal", which would be after she pluck the rune of death from the elden ring after the defeat of the GEQ. The fact that we don't see these statues in the DLC kind of suggests the crusade was before the removal of the rune of death and thus the defeat of the Gloam-eyed Queen. Edit: There's an additional problem if you want to tie the seduction the DLC mentioned as something that happened before the scene at the gates of divinity. We know the blackflame monks joined the apostles after the war against the giants since at that point they were already guardians of the flame. But Marika was already a god since the erdtree existed if not from the beginning then at least by the end of that war: - "Guidance has delivered ye through ordeal to the place ye stand. Put the giants to the sword and confine the flame atop the mount. Let a new epoch begin. An epoch glistening with life. Brandish the Elden Ring, for the Age of the Erdtree!" So as we see Marika was already a god. But the seduction would have to happen leading up to the event at the gates of divinity so before she became a god.
I agree with some of this. The descriptions are obviously talking about Marika. However, the evidence of "Abductor Virgins", the snakes and flame in Mesmer, the "seduction and betrayal", Mesmer looking a lot like Godskin Apostles, has too many links to GEQ. It may not be exactly as described here, but something is happening here I do believe. I don't think there is enough strength in the marika statue thing you mentioned. It's just like: "this cloth is different, so definitely giant story implications". It could be a hint, but it isn't much to go on. Also, the blackflame monks were attracted by the flame, not necessarily the GEQ. Additionally, it isn't solid fact that the fire monks are AFTER the war of the giants. Some evidence points to this, but the forge being very ancient (similar architecture of divine towers), and the line saying they came to Liurnia to find who stole their flame, kind of shows that maybe they were already guardians and came to find Radagon/Marika. I agree that the way you are interpreting it is a possibility, but it isn't guaranteed at all.
A "theory" this woman says, only to then start spitting straight facts. Bravo, I'm fully on-board for this idea. Its all supported with stuff that already exists in-game and meshes well with everything we already know. 10/10, my new favorite lore channel.
@@tinminator8905well, Placi was Elden Lord or something akin to an Elden Lord in a prehistoric era in which he ruled until his consort went Mia and never came back. What if the carcass that Marika pulled the "Strands of hair" from in the SOTE Storytrailer were the remains of Placis Missing consort? Would make for an interesting theory, and the way his consort went missing and ended up in the Land of shadow Was Bayle. All Evidenceless theory, but besides placi missing a consort theres not much to go by.
@@tinminator8905 yeah the main remaining mystery for placi is who or what his missing god who was "fled" was. Lots of theories but it in effect is responsible for or attached to the transition between ages of dragons into the proto erdtree society. So the common theory candidates are elden beast, marika herself, or GeQ. I guess bayle could be in the running too altho it seems they were opposed
@@Shmethan Why would that be a theory and on what basis? His god that fled is simply his god that fled. If he hadn’t fled then we would see him in game. The entirety of the ancient dragon society is far older than any of the things you listed. We just don’t see it in game. It is a mystery. Why do people have to connect things that have no connection?
Amazing lore video, fastest subscribe I've ever clicked. I did an entirely blind playthrough and I lost my mind checking social media and seeing almost no one talking about this theory. Your supporting evidence is really strong. Random things I think are interesting to contextualize: 1. The hornsent era seemed to have worshipped the crucible and had no elden ring, finding a different way, a method the Noxians would imitate to create divinity. I think this juxtaposes interestingly to Placidusax and his reign as Elden Lord. I am not sure who his God was that fled, but I find it interesting to think the GEQ could've been connected. Perhaps she had seduced Bayle, who has horn-like (crucible) aspects? The interesting parallel between Dragons, winged snakes, and snakes as a line of descent is Rykard makes it clear a serpent never dies. The serpent will forever be reborn. Bayle's heart has the exact same suggestion, implying that after being devoured he will surely reincarnate. I don't think these are coincidences and could be an interesting place to look. It's possible how GEQ/Messmer/Marika and Rya/Rykard/Tanith could reflect Bayle/GEQ/Serpent and how a human host could provide a taboo birth (Daedicar's Woe). 2. That may be where Marika even came up with the idea of betrayal through seduction. The circular story-telling abounds, and it would make sense for Marika to use a tried and true tactic on the GEQ and then do it AGAIN with Radagon on Rennala and the Carians. Basically a way to deal with opponents who cannot be defeated in direct combat. It also makes more sense for Radagon/Marika to be her final attempt at creating perfect/divine children, rather then Melina/Messmer being born to her and Radagon before Godfrey's lineage began as other's theorize. 3. This theory is also strengthened through the timeline. If Messmer's crusade came so late after the Abundant Erdtree Order, why would she only then decide to sacrifice her children? Mohg and Morgott are not banished for this crusade? It only makes too much sense that the stolen children would be something so damning if the truth got out it would harm any era of order she hoped to create. I think seeing the Omen influence on her children is what made her realize the crusade was necessary and Messmer was the perfect pawn for this. 4. Speaking to Melina's role, I'm not so sure she burned the Scadutree because to become kindling seems to be a death sentence. I think when Messmer and Melina were born from Radagon/GEQ two things split off. Messmer received the abyssal serpent and a flame that can burn divinity. Melina received the GEQ/vessel ability and the ability to become kindling to burn divinity. Her body may have burned when she received the GEQ's essence, similar to how the scarlet rot impacted Malenia as a child. 5. Lastly, Rykard definitely reflects Jar champions, his body being composed of multiple dead champions. It's also interesting to think he's hosting a ressurected god and almost creating a divinity gate between him and the pillars of his lair. I think this mirrors numen flesh melding harmoniously. If the GEQ was numen, it would make sense her children could also be melded together to form crucible like aspects (god-skin apostles). Rykard probably learned all of this at Bonny Village. Sorry for the wall of text but your video really helped ground some floating theories!!
Thank you so much!! And your comments shared here are incredible; I really love all of the incredible input and insight I've gotten on this video and it's given me so many more ideas to think about!!
I saw another video which found the 2 serpents intertwined in a spiral right behind Rykkard's throne, where we see a magic wielder serpent man. That might support your findings too.
I think I've got something on the origins of the Gloam-Eyed Queen that I've been piecing together for a bit now. Since the Gload-Eyed Queen and Marika are both Empyreans, this means they were both chosen by the Two Fingers at some point. Ranni, Miquella and Malenia would've had contact with the Two Fingers through the Golden Order and Marika would've had contact through the Finger Ruins of Dheo near Shaman Village. In which case, I think the Gloam-Eyed Queen would've made contact through the Finger Ruins of Rhia near the Cerulean Coast. Considering that Marika's finger ruins were close to her hometown, it would make sense that the Gloam-Eyed Queen's would've been near hers. This makes a lot of things about the Cerulean Coast and Charo's Hidden Grave make more sense, because those areas have connections to death all over them. For example, the coffins and the fact that the hidden grave is the only place in the land of shadow (I think) that has a Death Rite Bird and a Tibia Mariner. There's also a Ghostflame Dragon basically the first few steps into the Cerulean Coast, but those are everywhere so that doesn't say much. Though I guess Jagged Peak is also next to the Cerulean Coast which might connect the other Ghostflame Dragons here maybe? What got me thinking about the Gloam-Eyed Queen's connection to this place further would be the Coffin Fissure. When the trailer showing Marika at the Divine Gate came out, lots of people though there was a connection to the Gloam-Eyed Queen in that scene since the air around the Gate was Gloam-colored, but that's also a color that's prominent in the Coffin Fissure. Also, the Putrescent Knight's name in the files is the "Gloam-Eyed Knight" so I think the Gloam-Eyed Queen has to be important here somehow, because the coffins and the knight don't seem like they could be very deeply connected to St. Trina, timeline-wise. I also think that while these areas could be where the Gloam-Eyed Queen came from, I don't think it's where the Godskins came from or that she herself was a serpent, because as far as I could tell there doesn't seem to be anything there connecting them (I could be wrong here though). Though if there's a connection between serpents and dragons in Elden Ring, I could see her being a form of ancient dragon like Florissax who could change into a human form and whose dragon form was serpentine (Bayle and Placi prove that not all ancient dragons had the same biology and Jagged Peak is also right there). TLDR: The Gloam-Eyed Queen probably came from the southern land of shadows (Cerulean Coast/Charo's Hidden Grave/Coffin Fissure) because she's an Empyrean and the Finger Ruins of Rhia are there.
Oh, I love this idea! I actually makes so much sense. As for the ghostflame dragons, they can kinda go wherever they want, so they're not part of anybody's jurisdiction; but, there may be a timeline where the GEQ ruled the Lands Between and the Shadow Lands before Marika usurped her, or where Marika and the GEQ were allies (so posting a dragon outside the shaman village wouldn't be weird). It could also still be that both ladies were from Shaman Village and they each just encountered the Two Fingers in these ruins. Either way, I hadn't put those elements together until now. Good thinking!
When you say the Scadu was burnt - I think it may be that (as is a quite common theory) the *Erdtree* was burnt once before. The Scadu then, being created after this, reflects the "truth" of the spectral Golden Erdtree of the modern era :) I'm definitely more partial to Melina being the GEQ (and therefore embodying Destined Death more than the flame of ruin) but regardless, great video! Seeing the overlap on what all different angles on theorizing agrees on is really interesting, and I think it helps assertain the "most reasonable" middle ground ideas. There's definitely something significant about the GEQ/Godskins being associated with Serpents and Eiglay - those damn winged snakes are up to something! Its odd how Messmer's are considered "wise friends" despite every other assocation with snakes. You're also the only person I've seen mention the snake-columns in Rykard's arena! Thought I was taking crazy pills turning that one over in my head.
@@IngeniousNinja Melina can't be the gloam eyed queen she wouldn't have been born yet. The godskin went on their God hunt prior to black flame losing its true power from the sealing of the rune of death which we know was also the formation of Marika's golden order. (And the fact there was a God hunt at all as when Marika takes over she leaves herself as the one and only God, we see this in how all her children and even the elden lords are referenced as demigods which would say before marika's rule there were many gods.) We also know Melina was born at the base of the erdtree which would've been post marika's ascension as the erdtree is meant to house marika/elden beast. (A thought I just had writing this as I have said this many times now however starting to possibly see the option that maybe Melina is the rebirth of the gloam eyed queen as snakes never die so marika uses the rune of rebirth on her to wipe her mind. However the issue with this is that Melina has absolutely zero connection to black flame, even her butterflies are red with red flames (interesting her brother's are black with deep red flames) maybe Melina being born after the defeat of the gloam eyed queen left her further from her mother's flame than Messmer)
This is easily one of the best lore channels. Really impressive in such a saturated environment to stand out. Love your work - great editing, and really easy to watch and understand. Looking forward to more!
There seems to have been a burning of the erdtree and i guess the scadutree at the same time because theres a ton of ash in leyndell, that gets even worse after we burn the erdtree. So the scadutree looking like how the erdtree should, burnt and decaying, makes sense. I think that marked the end of the age of plenty, the first burning of the erdtree.
Which could explain how melina has burn scars across her body already. Plus with her connection to destined death and flames she probably sacrificed her physical body like ranni to do it, but survived as a spirit knowing she'd have to do it again
People aren't considering strongly enough the possibility that the Scadutree is ACTUALLY the Erdtree's Shadow which appeared and grew at the same moment that Marika planted/formed the Erdtree. It is the tree of umbra. The darkest place of the shadow cast by the Erdtree. Now it's left because Marika ripped the Lands Between in two and veiled the Shadow Realm. It remains connected to the Erdtree metaphysically and so when something happens to one (in theory) it happens to the other. The Erdtree is dying and has been shattered, so now the Scadutree is crumbling from within as well.
This is now my headcanon, it makes a lot of sense. I find the rival idea interesting... on top of the snake and tree connection, GEQ is like a queen of death/snakes and has connections to fertility (all the birth related stuff and snakes in this game...) where Marika is like a queen of life/trees and has connections to numen that are "seldom born" and shaman that become trees, all this everlasting and eternal life stuff compared to the rebirth that comes with death. Lots of numen connections to creating life artificially too.
What makes so much sense about this theory is that it works really well thematically. Marika treats Messmer and Melina like crap because they’re not actually her kids, which is very George R. R. Martin lol
True, the only ones who were treated as badly where Mogh and Morgot who where born as Omen her sworn enemies. Godwyn, Malania and Micqullia (I can spell names today) where treated very well in comparison Edit: 1 Marika gave brith to the twins and they knew Ratagon (who him and Mirika shared a body, she didn’t 1 lock them away, 2 send them on a wild goose chase or ask them to basically become a living torch, that is much better then Mogh, Morgot, Meliena and Mesmer. Yes Malania and Micqulla were born with curses but Marika didn’t do anything to them after their brith as far as I know. Yes, they were treated better then Mesmer, Melina, Mogh and Morgot.
Marika treats all of her children like crap, the main reason probably being that they were all cursed by the hornsent, none of her children are born normal, on the other side Radagon's children are all born whithout any cursed, i don't think she hates them but they probably reminde her of the people who put her whole family in a jar and torture her whole village, so understandable, Godwyn may be the only child that escaped the curse
I like the theory that Messmer and Melina are geq's kids, but I think geq is Marika. i think maliketh sealing away destined death and defeating the queen, was forcing Marika to follow the greater wills order and become a vessel. the abductor virgin is geq with Messmer and the statue in Messmer's room is after she had to seal away destined death and cast away geq side. and Melina is the gloam eyed queen (/her kid) in the way that Millicent is related to malenia, they both represent something their mother lost.
it does say "in this too, she betrayed him" or some such in reference to sealing destined death, so perhaps she knew that giving maliketh destined death would be torturous for him, and also that she had somehow betrayed him before, perhaps akin to how ranni betrayed blaidd by resisting the greater will.
Mind-blowing presentation :) super on board! Sick find on the Duellist set! The insides of the Abductor Virgins also seem to be lined with skin which would only strengthen your idea xD Have wondered for a while if the parallel between Messmer & Melina is even clearer in that Melina also had a snake in her body, which no longer remains having burned her body away to live on as a soul? Could tie in with the first burning of The Erdtree / the burning of The Scadutree to lay out why the serpent is then seen as treacherous before Messmer's exile? The parallels between the Irises of Grace & Occultation also make me wonder if the latter was involved with Melina's state somehow as well? Always loved the Beast Eye connection but it feels like there's something there too? The Black Knight set also seems way more similar to Maliketh's than anything else - could tie into their shared links to Destined Death? Bayle's heart also suggests he will never die, almost like there's something serpentine about dragons or vice versa? The Twinbird is seen depicted across Farum Azula to tie in generally to Death via Ghostflame, which now we've seen as blue to indicate a potential divide of red & blue black flames to create/split Destined Death? The three-headed serpent pillar could even be a reference to Melina & Messmer being the children of three beings - Marika-Radagon & GEQ? I kinda like the idea of Melina inheriting more clear aspects of both her mothers along with her father xD Would also be quite funny if Messmer's final words of "Mother...Marika..." was actually referring to two separate people! The name Melina also apparently finds its roots in the Greek for honey, which could tie to the honeyed rays of gold, and perhaps the kindness of grace a la the secret Erdtree spell? Then to possibly back up GEQ still being Melina & not her mother xD I do like the idea that Melina's "I have set my heart upon the world that I would have." etc was once something she said to Marika, while in control of the isolated Destined Death. She's definitely quite focused on the "principles we would follow" to guide the world - perhaps Messmer saw her efforts as justified on her own terms to not intervene? Perhaps his fire reminds him of what he lost within that clash? You provoked a lot of thoughts sorry xD great job again!
So another little tidbit to help with this: We know Maliketh defeated GEQ, and the armors of Mesmers Black Knight's look a lot like maliketh's black armor, lined with gold, and white beast hair. This continues the theme of mockery with omen killers, and furnace golems. I think having two finger ruins is implying there were two empyreans here. GEQ and Marika. If they were empyrean sisters it also kind of fits with GRR Martin's incest themes lol (Radagon and GEQ, Miquella and Radahn, other books by him haha.)
So, a thought just occurred to me. How much older is Marika than Radagon? We know her as Marika the Eternal, so possibly she's way, WAY older than everyone else, right? What if Marika helped to create Radagon? He's appears as human as the Tarnished, but then he also has some aspects of the Fire Giants. Could she have engineered him from scratch?
The only life to be created from scratch in elden ring are the albinaurics. So unless you want to say that radagon is an albinauric I don't think that's the case. Also, it's clearly implied that radagon has fire giant ancestors. You can't have ancestors if you're the first of your creation.
@@ericohm9474 Fair points, but then where does Radagon come from? We know that Godfrey was Hoarah Loux, but not about Radagon. And how was a human supposed to mix with a Fire Giant? They aren't even the same species. Unless we think that Radagon was jarred....
@@CJusticeHappen21I wish so deeply that we'd get radagons origin. I think the desc of marikas hammer mentions it's from wherever the numen are from, another world or something like that. And then in the pre dlc info they said the land of shadows was where marika first set foot in the lands between. The fact that there's actually an insanely low amount of radagon related references in the dlc to me implies that he was introduced to the equation after marikas godly origin and leaving the land of shadow. Oo something interesting I noticed today, the desc for Radagons Icon mentions he studied sorceries and incants because he was trying to "become complete" and that's the origins of a lot of people's alchemical/rebis takes on radika
@@ericohm9474 perhaps not from scratch, but from components of other already living things, aspects of fire giants and shamans. the albinaurics come from scratch as they have no human or otherwise components, they are entirely synthetic, but if radagon were made similar to how Marika was made, he would not be from scratch.
Don't you think it's more likely for the gloam eyed Queen to be Saint who rose through the amalgamation of all life through the horrific rituals of the hornsent as she and her progeny look the part, aesthetically speaking at least. Queen Marika betrayed her by reaching into her womb and pulling the golden threads, which could symbolize the true heir of the greater will. But, Marika's ascension being a false one caused the greater will to stop convening to the fingers
THIS IS SO GOOD!!!! Another lore video banger omg… I’ve had so many new thoughts about ideas from the DLC but I’ve struggled to piece them together, which is exactly what this video was able to do! I can’t tell you how satisfying watching this from start to finish was, it’s definitely my favorite interpretation so far!!!
Your video showed up as a recommendation when I woke up this morning. Didnt recognize the channel as there are so many new Soulsborne lore channels these days. I read the title and was immediately skeptical as hell. But what I love more than the lore we all know, are new takes and crazier lore dives. I have to admit, after watching your video, not only have you earned a new subscriber, youve thoroughly convinced me. I cant wait to see what others come up with using your vid as a jumping off point. Damn fine work friend. Keep up the good work. Looking forward to future uploads.
"O Erdtree, you shall burn." Yep Melina's definitely channeling her Fell God heritage. This is an EXCELLENT video, as was your previous re: Marika. Quickly jumped to my fav ER content creator and theorist.
I am blown away by the visual motifs being connected between the Abductor Virgins and the GEQ. I have been searching for serpent motifs for a long time and I can't believe I missed the one on the Duelist Set!! Awesome job. Also finding the historical inspiration in the Greek snake columns is BEAUTIFUL. Likely a holdover from the serpent goddesses that we still see remnants of in early Greek culture (became "evil" Medusa), Minoan culture like you said, I believe one of the Phoenician snake goddesses was called "Tanit". A lost serpent goddess from the Bronze Age.
Oh my gosh hi you!! ❤️ Thank you so much for the kind words!! And yes you are 100% right about the Phoenician goddess Tanit, whom I’ve wondered for a while was the inspiration in part for Tanith. The jars are also extremely reminiscent of the urns in the Phoenician burial plots for infant sacrifices and the castanets Tanith had also originated with them; I definitely think we get to see a few design inspirations to Phoenician history!
“Born at the BASE of the Erdtree” “BASE Serpent”? Is the base of the Erdtree the top of enir Elim? It’s my theory that the shadow lands are below the lands between(so called because they are between the original shadow lands and the divine) and that the coffins as usual travel up and down like the smaller coffins that we use in waterfalls Hmmm now that I’m halfway through, I think it’s more likely that Melina was indeed born to Marika, but then rebelled against her mother. When she reminisces about burning an Erdtree…. She’s not remembering the Erdtree as we know it, but the Scadutree that her mother had her burn. After she rebelled in her famous Godskin rebellion.
@@kitetales😅 it’s my personal theory. I think it explains many different things. They appear like ships because they move many different people at once, but unlike a ship they go from higher and lower planes of life and death(underworld). We see this pattern with coffins everywhere. I believe the shadow lands are the original plane of existence and that the hornsent built enir elim to try to “storm the heavens” as it were, sort of like a Tower of Babel. The divine gate leads UP to the lands between, a higher plane of existence and Marika used the coffins to move many people up and down between shadow lands and Lands between. I think this ALSO explain part of the symbol of the new Elden Ring, you can see that the rings hang between two half circles, as opposed to the previous Elden Ring which was only below a half circle of divinity. This suggests that the current Elden Ring belongs to the “lands between” two stages of life, divine and death. Edit: ok just finished your video, very nice, congrats on the work 🎉
I just discovered your channel and I'm just blown away by the amount of research and citations that go into making your videos. You've earned a subscriber. Keep up the excellent work.
Hey! I was just playing through Volcano Manor and I noticed some things which might be interesting. Firstly, some of the Abductor Virgins have weapons, those weird hammer things they launch out on chains, that are shaped in an upturned arc, the same shape as Marika’s crucifix, speculated to be her great rune. The snakeskin in the church of Eiglay is also stretched out to form Marika’s Rune, looking remarkably like the Divine Gate at Enir Elim. This is the same shape we see in the Rune Arcs as well, which are said to be “basins where blessings can pool.” I’m not quite sure what to make of the snakeskin being strung up in this shape, unless it had something to do with the GEQ originally having to do with both life AND death. This would make sense for the Hornsent, who love cycles and coexist with deathbirds and rot scorpions, and would be a valid reason for Hornsent to say Marika “usurped” her divinity.
This comment will likely go unnoticed but we actually DO have context for another similar Erdtree having been burnt before as it’s depicted in a unique painting in Rykard’s manor. The burning of that Erdtree then becoming the Scadutree may have sparked the war against the giants in the first place and thus established the “cardinal sin” that to burn another would be considered blasphemous.
The idea of Rykard designing the Abductor Virgin, and yelling, "see Mom? This is you!" would be very in character.
Someone described that as him throwing a middle child hissy fit 😆
Would even go as far as to say blasphemous
Rykard's mom is Renalla.
Well yes, but his father is Radagon, who is also Marika, so he has two mothers(Marika and Renalla) and a father(Radagon) hense why Morgott's and the narrators dialogue to refer to "all" the demigods as Marika's children, meaning including Ranni, Rykard and Radahn @@tinminator8905
@@AntediluvianGirl It is literally stated in Rykard's Greatrune that Rykard, Ranni and Radahn later became demigod stepchildren after the union of Marika and Radagon. It is not because Marika is Radagon, but because he is the Elden Lord, so all his children are demigods.
9:15 - Melina's hair honestly looks more like a Dull Dusky Pink color than a light brown to me, which makes it seem like a super washed out version of the Radagon children's red hair.
Washed out … or ashen, like it was burned.
I was thinking the same thing
yes if you look at Miq and mal they have red and blonde mirroring their mom and dad
messmer has red and Mel has pinkish blonde
melina's hair being aLOT like when a redhead goes gray
it looks like a pinkish blonde
Yeah if it was orange tinted it would read as brown, but it doesn’t have enough yellow so it reads as light red/pink. A screen set to warm tone mode would probably make it look brown on accident
I was thinking the same thing. It's like an ashen strawberry blond.
Shaman being tree people makes sense, its why Radagon is weak to fire, he's not stone, he's petifried wood.
All characters that belong to Golden Order faction are weak to fire, because trees in general are weak to fire.
Petrified wood is stone, actually. More specifically , it's a type of fossil in which all of the original organic components of the cell wall are replicated via permineralization.
Still, you make an astute observation, as he does have the appearance of crumbling stone.... Or incredibly old dry, rotting wood...
Radagon weakness comes from the curse of the fire giants
They're mushrooms
Radagon isn't a Shaman, Marika is. Radagon was likely his own person before meeting Marika, but Marika merged with him in order to become a goddess without the use of an Elden Lord.
The Abductor Virgins being modeled after the GEQ would follow the pattern of siege weapons being modeled after Marika’s enemies, like the flame chariots and wicker men.
Also that bombshell at the end about the two trees blew my mind. I think you’re really on to something there.
Well, it would but the abductor virgins are specifically build by an enemy of marika - so it doesn‘t really add up there
@@Llunatix13 But if Messmer has abductor virgins in his army wouldn't that put their creation before Rykard turned against Marika?
1:20 If I had to guess, and advocate for that theory, it would be that Tanith cannot have children with Rykard in his current state; but she is modeled as the Abductor Virgin as a motherly figure for the souls abducted and taken Rykard to join him (them, together), the Serpent King "as family'", as he says himself.
Oh my gosh that is SO GOOD!!!! That’s the first time I’ve heard that explanation of Tanith in that manner regarding them, that’s so much better than “hey everyone my wife’s womb is full of snakes”
@kitetales Ahaha yeah. The family line from Rykard always stuck out to me, especially with Tanith in the picture.
@@kitetalesthe abductor virgin's movements also look somewhat like they are dancing, although rather clumsily.
Tanith's mask and headdress are also similar to the Virgins, just missing the crown section.
Wouldn’t this place the creation of the abductor virgins to after the shattering? There’s no substancial evidence as to when Rykard met Tanith, and Rykard wasn’t merged(?) with the Serpent until after the shattering, but we have the virgins in both Leyndell and the Academy, very likely used before the shattering as torture and teleportation devices. He wouldn’t have been able to place them there after the shattering without having to put up a fight against the sorcerers in the academy and the leyndell soldiers guarding the capital
@@matheussantos9367 you see abductor virgin's laying waste to soldiers at Mt gelmire.
They have been sent out precisely because there is very little left to oppose them.
If they were at these places at the height of their respective power you'd imagine they would be taken care of, not left to roam around abducting people.
They are reminiscent of the Channelers from Dark Souls, sent out after the various kingdoms' power fell apart to abduct women.
I love all the other mythological details that you brought up & broke down here, so I figured I'd help contribute a few details and resources to check out that you might appreciate:
- Miko are a _type_ of Shaman (the Dragon Communion Priestess is the Dragon Communion Miko in Japanese, mirroring the Lord & Miko relationship as Placidusax was the Elden Lord in the time before the Erdtree). The differentiation in English using Shaman for all of them is to ensure that the associations are made correctly, because we don't have that implicit relationship between Shaman & Priestess in the English categorizations of those groups, so localizing has to shift to make sure that the cultural context supports the in-game descriptions most easily.
- During the Scadutree's detonation attack its pose perfectly mirrors that of the Scadutree, and it can be done in triple, which mirrors the 3 hammer strikes shattering of the Elden Ring that you see in Radagon's fight. All of the Erdtree Avatars were said to only emerge AFTER the Shattering (on their staff description). The Scadutree itself has massive ethereal petals, and like Malenia the Scadutree revives three times, and after its defeat you receive Miquella's shattered Rune. It is a mirror of everything that the Erdtree experiences, but only the dark facets of that, like the blackness making up the other half of Ragaon/Marika's broken body, as both have to be present for the Elden Ring to be held inside them.
- Miquella & Malenia are Empyreans as they're born of a single god (Marika & Radagon are two facets of the same person), thus why the immaculate conception themes would still be applicable here, as she IS Radagon - even if she hadn't split that part of herself away yet in order to become a god, the way Miquella does with St. Trina. This, like the relationship with D & his brother are both very core components of the book *_Night's Master_* by Lee Tanith, which have a lot of core elements to the contextual lore in both *_Elden Ring_* & *_Shadow of the Erdtree_* (which I expect you'll especially appreciate given your previous video), though they mix with themes of Yin & Yang as well as Body & Soul (like with Godwyn & Ranni).
- The other facet of this has got its core in a manga that heavily inspired *_BERSERK_* but also a fundamental part of *_Elden Ring_* - which is *_Pygmalio_* where the main character, Kurt is the Prince of Rune on a path to become king by defeating Medusa for what she did to his mother Galatea... only to eventually discover that Medusa is the other half of his own mother's soul, making his task extremely complicated. (While there is the Greek Mythology of that as a foundation, the manga by Shinji Wada has a LOT of details that appear in Elden Ring specifically).
- The use of the serpentine mythology with the Godskin Apostles wielding the Godslaying Black Flame, and the connection to Rykard's initial path of the Recusant all set up to how the Erdtree established the symbol of the Serpent as anathema to the Erdtree, forbidding the fire along with the Giants' legacy in order to create the Golden Order. The other elements with the Gloam-Eyed Queen mention that she & Marika are both Empyreans, likely meaning that they're twins born of a single god - the same as every other pair of the Golden Lineage - two facets of the same coin of Light & Shadow, which we see hinted at in Bonny Village with the Tree & Serpent whose remains are both mixed into the same crucible of red & gold in an attempt to turn the prisoners into saints.
- We know that Marika represents the eternal Gold and was assigned Malekith as a Shadow by the Two Fingers in order to control her by becoming that missing half, the same way that Lord Godfrey's rage and his Barbarian self as Horah Loux was replaced by Serosh. Thus, after defeating the Gloam-Eyed Queen, Marika the Eternal has to seal Destined Death into her own Shadow - Malekith.
- The Gloam-Eyed Queen and her apostles were known for stitching the skin of gods into themselves is the inversion of that practice - they're the Shadow of Destined Death that stitches gold into themselves - which is what we see with the way both Messemer's & Melina's right eyes have been taken out and replaced with one that contains her Gold supporting them as her children - but like with Medusa & Kurt in *_Pygmalio_* - Marika is just as much the other facet of their mother. As such, while Messemer & Melina have the seemingly opposing Serpentine & Kindling traits split completely between them - they're both tools of Destined Death & Shadow - not of Eternal Order & Gold. This is what Marika ultimately needs, because being a god that's puppeted by the Greater Will for eternity is a cursed prison from which she can never escape, hence Melina's quest as your maiden. (Marika & Radagon's Scarseal & Soreseals emphasize that, and why Hewg was given the task to make a weapon for the player Tarnished capable of killing a god).
- Lastly, the Death Sorcery-wielding Putrescence Sorcerers in the Catacombs in Shadow of the Erdtree (BonfireVN has a good video of them) also have a small child infant attached to their chests, further emphasizing that parallel to Marika and the Iron Abductor Virgins.
Wow thank you so much for this incredibly detailed and insightful response!! I am absolutely going to need to be citing this for my Scadutree video!
@@kitetales You're more than welcome!!
Aside from Lee Tanith's novel *_Night's Master_* & Shinji Wada's manga *_Pygmalio_* the other title I've found that has a lot of thematic context for the game's mythology is Yuki Urushibara's manga *_Mushishi_* - especially when it comes to the Erdtree's themes. I think together, reading through those three have helped contextualize how I look at the character stories & themes in the wider mythology more than anything else.
If you're checking out the Scadutree currently, something else neat is that all of the glowing golden amber in the shattered branches & pooled on the ground in its arena fades to complete darkness as soon as it's defeated.
Glad to've stumbled across your channel today! :D
Wait!! In the DLC story trailer marika is naked from the waist up!! She JUST turned from being Radagon before ascending to the gate of divinty!!
I think Radagon presented himself to the GEQ as her lord and when she was at the gate of divinity she was betrayed and marika took the golden strands from her and became god instead of her.
I think the gloam eyed queen was the chosen empyrean of the fingers at the time but marika usurped her. And the fingers just rolled with it because the elden ring needs it's vessel now no matter what given what happened to placidusax.
I think the GEQ survived but with great injuries and deformaties leading her to amass the godskins which seem like a roundabout way to have children again because she can't now that she is so badly injured.
I love this theory, nice catch!
Ascending to Godhood at the Gate of Divinity requires a lord and a consort. Miquella would not have needed his consort if that wasn't the case. Marika must have ascended with Radagon as her consort, divesting herself of him as requirement. This would also explain Grandam's "strumpet" insult. She ascended with one man as her consort, but sent him off to war and begun a lineage with Godfrey. Not only that, but Radagon later 'seduced' Rennala, just like the GEQ, only to then later become Elden Lord alongside Marika again.
I think the GEQ becoming unable to bear any more children is spot-on. This game has a large theme of duality and parallels. When we see Marika herself crucified inside the Erdtree, she has a spear of destined death piercing her womb, a poetic end for someone who did the same to the previous owner of the rune of death.
THIS
except she DID die, but snakes never stay dead, remember?
So she goes to the lands between and turns Rykard (& I think at this point Melina as well?) against Marika.
@@brok3nboy I think the GEQ died and was gone because the rune of death allows for Destined Death, meaning death for good. Marika and her actions caused everything, the tree stopped producing sap and there was never enough bodies or souls to throw on the roots that could change that. Cutting off everything from death, and the natural cycle of the world before. I think Rykard and Melina just realized that true death was necessary for the continuation of the world. Marika's entire motivations, as we know from the association with the shaman and the living jars, is to avoid her own death and I think that extended to her children and that avoidance and fear is what corrupted the elden ring.
Don't forget that Radagon gave Renalla the Rune of Rebirth.
Marika could have stolen the children and "rebirthed" them (which gets into some really weird territory I am loathe to explore).
Or even Radagon could have impregnated GEQ, stolen the child, and then Marika could've punished GEQ by making her become reborn with Messmer as her children (attempting to remove the base serpent from them).
GEQ could be the abducting virgin that artificially creates the godskins as they are (the snake-like part).
And with her entire MO being to skin the last shaman and all of her offspring.... yeah. You could probably graft serpents to babes with shaman flesh and she _is_ from that age. If she's a hornsent that'd be wild.
if you think about it, many of her children appear to be rebirths of her enemies. Like Mohg and Morgott's curse as omens appears like it's the good ol cycle of rebirth that they enjoy in place of true death, but with karmic punishment making it so her mortal enemies were then reborn as her children. Malania was born afflicted with rot like a rebirth of the god of the burnt Temple of the Bud. And Miquella... he seems a lot like a repeat of her.
@@Tasytotand Godwyn's fate almost seems like the cruel joke version of rebirth, doesn't it? The golden child, dead but not dead enough to be rebirth through the Erdtree - instead spreading this mockery of order, this mimicry of life that is Those Who Live In Death, like a disease through the very Erdtree's roots. It even spreads into the Shadowlands, one of few ways to pass that cloaking veil.
Your revelation of Marika being a tree person illuminates grafting much more.
YES!! Doesn’t it?! Gosh I hadn’t even out that together; totally fits into this theory!
I also think it makes sense how we see the Giants' corpses up in the Mountaintops- skewered with big branches. That's Marika's power at work, and she is the one described as having defeated the Fell God. It would also explain why the Trolls' chests have those tree roots in them holding a tablet. I'm guessing they used to have big faces in their chests like the Fire Giant, but after they switched sides Marika used her power to place that in them instead.
Quick, google "Scion" in relation to plants ;)
Maybe Godrick was onto something. It’s the same idea as the sainted jars it’s just a way different application. It’s like us trying to figure out how they actually built the pyramids in Egypt. The actual process to divinity has just been lost in time. Godrick is actually some pretty good foreshadowing to the jar process we learn about in SoTE.
Several people have arrived at this conclusion at the same time seemingly for different reasons. Talk about synchronicity.
I am telling you, the Fell God plays a MAJOR role in the story, and something the community never looked at is it's connection to the Sun, because there's many references in Fell God lore to it. The Sun has to have been a significant and more powerful entity back then according to the Sun Realm shield, which is such an underrated lore item. I feel like the Fell God is an old Sun God who was replaced/vanquished.
I think you’re exactly right!! It’s a way bigger cast member than is given credit. Well time for a deep dive into the Fell God! 🌞
perhaps the fell god was placidusax's god and the war with the fire giants was also the war against the ancient dragons, allied by their shared god. would also explain why the flame of fell ruin was never extinguished, perhaps that is the source of the lands betweens sun, and it would be impossible to extinguish. the golden order became a rule in the lands between, unable to be removed only changed or sealed without influence, so perhaps similarly the sun and flame became rule and that is why it was guarded and sealed away in forbidden lands.
This also makes sense because when we think of the sun...
We experience it as light and gold. But really, it's a giant ball of fire.
The golden order is a "false" sun. It's the sun as perceived by eyes without knowledge. The true nature of the sun is far more complex and nuanced than just "lololol it's gold light".
It looks like elden ring lore is finally about to have the Oedeon experience 😂.
And now you will never truly know because this lazy dlc is how elden ring ends so keep making up theories on who to blame for what
I think the Abductor Virgin's crown is called a "kokoshnik" - it is a type of Russian crown. The rare singing bat lady wears a golden kokoshnik and I think she is found along with the more common variants of the bat ladies along the Ruin-Strewn Precipice in Liurnia of The Lakes.
Edit: Typo and thank you for the ❤
YES!! That is exactly the crown!! Thank you for the name! 🙏
@@kitetales My pleasure! Looks like the bat ladies' proper name is a "Chanting Winged Dame" which could possibly indicate nobility (the title of Dame). And, on the topic of wanting children, but being unable to; maybe you should take a closer look at the lament the ladies are singing:
Latin Lyrics:
O, locus ille, beatus quondam, nunc deminuit.
Nos, destinatae matribus, nunc fiunt turpes.
Ploravimus lacrimavimusque,
sed nemo nos consolatur. Aureum cui irascebaris?
English Translation:
Alas, that land, once blessed, now has dimished.
We, destined to be mothers, now become tarnished.
We have lamented and we have shed tears.
But no one consoles us.
Golden one, at whom were you angry?
(Taken from the Elden Ring Wiki)
The line "Nos, destinatae matribus, nunc fiunt turpes." = We, destined to be mothers, now become tarnished.
seems very interesting in my opinion and the emphasis of mothers in the game.
I really enjoy watching your Elden Ring videos and your research into the lore.😊
Wait ... Could the Gloam Eyed Queen be ... Marika's sister ? Not as blood related, but like, the other succesful Jar Saint ? Two Empyreans born from the same process ?
I love that!!!!! I would so be on board with that!
I was wondering this as well. Considering an identical snake skin is found in Bonney Village and the Temple of Eigley, she could have been a Shaman that was merged with a snake.
There's also the unique tree in Bonny Village where we pick up the "O Mother" gesture. Could Marika's pot have been a Shaman that was merged with a tree?
May as well just go all the way and say she's another part of Marika.
@@kitetalespossible since the Godskin incantation sigil is one to one with Metyr’s arena on the map. Both representing a fingerprint, Marika could have picked the side of elden beast while GEQ could have been allied to Metyr.
Just a quick observation about the little sealing tree; it doesn't just look like the Scadutree, it actually specifically _only_ looks like the part of the Scadutree that seems to be "choking" the other part that is leaking sap. It is even twisting in the exact same way; look at the sealing tree, it is only bending sideways, with no part of the trunk going upwards like with the Scadutree. I just noticed this as you showed the side-by-side, so no thoughts on the implications, but it seems relevant/important considering that the appearance of the Scadutree has been a massive question mark ever since the original announcement image.
With the Helphen links to the Shadowkeep, it really makes me wonder if the tall tree being choked was the lampwood of the Helphen
That is SO interesting. I don't think it necessarily disproves the theory outright, given that the "choking" tree burning is what gives access to the divine gate, aka the gate which, we assume, allowed Marika to become a god. She took a path and sealed it so no one else could. Maybe this is why Miquella needed to get rid of everything, his body, his fate, his love? Because he didn't want to use Messmer as kindling since that would go against his "Age of Compassion" thing?
I still think that the idea that the Scadutree has been "hurt" before stands. The way it leeks gold sap is very reminiscent of, well, a wound. The idea that the Scadutree might've been the tree of the previous order, and that Marika created a new, golden tree to replace it, makes sense to me.
Godskin Noble Hood : Nobles are the most ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology.
So the most exalted of apostles (who serve GEQ) are being granted a privilege/ability. To become more snake-like.
Damn, Radagon sure has been busy sleeping around, ey?
He is more of a Strumpet then Marika is according to Hornsent Grandam at least
This is perfect 😂
Radagon is Marika. Grandam had it right lol
@@absolute4523 You just have to ask at what point did Radagon and Marika conflux to become one being, because they both certainly had seperate origins
@@Kryptnytif by separate origins you mean before they were conjoined within a jar, then yea sure. But as far as this subject is concerned they have always been the same person.
@@Kryptnyt What you SHOULD be asking is: How long ago did Marika split into two being and how?
The Gloam Eyed Queen being medusa could mirror the actual story of medusa from greek mythology 19:37
Oh yeah I didn't even think about that, the jealousy that led to her being cursed; that's a great angle!!
8:40 Messmers black knights have the same ash of war on their hammers that Radagon used in his fight
No, not the exact same but I get what you are trying to say. You mean that they can also send out golden shockwaves with their attacks. The skill of Marika's Hammer is specifically flying up in an unnatural pose and then smashing down, called Gold Breaker, named as the heroic Radagon's signature attack.
@@tinminator8905 yeah I know about that one, but doesn't Radagon do something similar in his fight? I swear I remember him doing a similar move but I could be wrong hahaha
@@twodumbgamers9285 He does almost exactly, yea. The twirl around then slam into the ground with a golden explosion mirrors the Ash of War near spot on.
To be exact it's Marika's Hammer which he uses in his fight. I'm guessing the black knights mirror Marika more than Radagon since Radagon most likely fought with a greatsword most of the time, not a hammer (ofc before you meet him, after you do he uses Marika's hammer).
Radagon uses Marika's hammer and the black knights have her blessing.
Speaking of thorns, the dead giants in the Mountaintops are also full of thorns
Yes I'm so curious about that, it was always such an interesting design and now we can see it matches mesmers spear incredibly well. But then the timeline doesn't really explain him being around during the war w the giants so maybe they come from marika or radagon
Excellent point!
They came from Radagon. Why? Because Radagon is the one who sealed the entry to the erdtree with... thorns. Impenetrable, thorns. @@Shmethan
i actually had a similar theory prior to the release of the game!! i had theorized that radagon was sent over to seduce the GEQ and that resulted in Messmer and Melina. It would make Messmer’s story even more tragic, as he’d be massacreing what is essentially his own people on behalf of who isn’t even his actual mother. The serpent connection also ties into the snakey apostles and nobles, and would also explain Melina’s gloam eye and destined death connection without her actually being the original GEQ. Haven’t watched the whole vid yet but excited to see your take!
As i watch the video-I don’t agree that the Hornsent despised snakes. the hornsent says Messmer’s face was “sublime,” and we know the hornsent praise blending of life, which the serpent also is. Messmer’s curse could be seen as crucible-borne as well. But I could be wrong.
Thinking now about the idea of “virgin” Marika. The hornsent grandam is very hung up on the whole “strumpet” thing. Maybe Marika was supposed to be pure and the existence of Messmer/her other kids is an insult?
Also, regarding the rune of death, it actually used to be part of the elden ring, not the GEQ herself-it was just what gave her her power. Maybe Marika and GEQ were meant to share? Or Marika won the god race against another jar saint? We know GEQ was another empyrean… ok back to watching
Finally finished watching and I have a LOT to say but this comment is already way too long. Bottom line is very cool and plausible theory. Marika’s forced sealing of things that aren’t necessarily “evil” but could be her downfall also brings to mind Gwyn’s treatment of humanity’s dark soul and his own poor snake son. (Messmer’s eye socket looking like the darksign…) Ok well anyway great video!!!!
Messmer being raised to kill his own people would be SO incredibly dark- they would absolutely go there too
@@kitetales yes exactly!! and actually, the godskin noble something does mention that the animal traits are related to the crucible. maybe GEQ was another jar saint, one made in bonny village using the flesh of the shed snake skin (explaining her snake traits), but she actually believed in the jar cause and the crucible unlike marika, so she pulled the ol’ “rennala maneuver” and had kids with her to use them as tools?
Thats such a Marika move@@margaretmoonlight616
I LOVE your idea that Marika was supposed to remain "pure" and not reproduce. It makes perfect sense - if you've attained the perfect blend of life, why muddy it at all?
@@kitetalesit also adds a certain bitter irony to him calling the Tarnished a 'mongrel' 😬
To add weight to eiglay’s shape shifting abilities, Mesmer can also shapeshift. When he does, he becomes the abyssal serpent. So it isn’t surprising that eiglay, if truly messmer’s biological mother, could do the reverse and take on human form from her serpent form. If she did, just like messmer, she would have mini snakes all over her body, just as depicted by the abductor virgins. In his human form, messmer has snakes all around his body.
the undead mages in the dlc catacombs...they're cradling babies too. Rotting corpses of babies, but still.
Hmm. Tenuous connection to the rune of death, via Godwyn? Difficult to say
@@MsCunningLinguistic their magic uses the centipede mark that other death sorceries use.
Godwin is he Gloam Eyed King confirmed!
OMG. not only can you see the godskin’s big hood in the metal details on her neck area under the big jewel that matches theirs, when Abductor Virgin’s “snake womb” is closed, the outside metallic details literally look just like the stomach/womb in the trailer we see Marika reach into. You totally nailed this and it was in the little details the entire time….this game is incredible I’m blown away
You are for sure on the right track looking at these ancient statues artifacts and art. Miyazaki & his dev team traveled Europe & the Middle East for research. That’s why I like TarnishedArcheaology as well….I’m dumbfounded…so much of this game is showing not telling. The lore can really be right in front of you all along….the costuming alone of all these characters was clearly done with real intent top to bottom. it really gives so much lore & depth just analyzing the small details of every NPC, every enemy every main character is worth combing over. WOW amazing video yet again Kite the EGG-LAY stuff was great too. I was waiting for this lore & you delivered, you have a fan in me ❤ -one of the “other” demographic😂🌈
@@sharkt00th666Not only that even the placement/locations where you find items or enemies have lore or clues to them. Elden Ring really is Miyazaki's magnum opus.
@@anonfinally1692 YES!!!! I can’t believe so many “fans” say there’s no lore or it’s not interesting. Like just say you want all the info freely handed to you mindlessly…this game doesn’t hold your hand in combat in any aspect so why should it went it comes to the lore…Miyazaki wants it to be a scavenger hunt of sorts. I would even go so far to say he’d want the game played with a notebook at the ready, that’s how in-depth everything goes &only gets deeper as you progress! I think it’s so cool the fanbase can continue to discuss the Gloam Eyed Queen who haunts the narrative when she isn’t even a boss, isn’t even visible! That’s how you know he’s cultivated something really special, this is more than the cliche fromsoft hard bosses it’s about the world itself, yearning for new info to unlock the mysteries and histories of it, and isn’t that so perfect for an open world game? His first no less?! A flawless masterclass in world building that we will talk for years to come, like how people talk about GRRM’s novels
Hi, I am one of your 5 ladies watching, ty for addressing us directly XD (such an inspiring, exciting and lovely narrated video once again!)
Haha THANK YOU!! 🥰
I'm another of your ladies , keep up the awesome content loved this video I'm on my second watch ❤
@@Peabeezombie Awwww thank you so much!!! 🥲💙
I am also one of the girlies/followers!!
(* ´ ▽ ` *)/
Can this be the official girlie's thread and get pinned? 🥺
Lasies assemble 💪💅🫶🫶🫶
One thing is that I’m pretty sure that Melina being able to use herself as kindling to burn the Erdtree is more to do with her being a finger maiden than her parentage. My vague understanding of Vyke’s lore is that he took the frenzied flame specifically so that he wouldn’t have to use his maiden as kindling.
I do feel like Melina's hair is more pink than brown, which could be seen as a mix of Radagon's red hair + Marika's lighter hair
Agreed.
Exactly, it reminds me of rose gold specifically. Rose gold is made of pure gold (Marika's hair) mixed with copper (Radagon's hair).
Just finding you through this video. Such an interesting concept so properly researched and gloriously narrated! Seriously, your cadence, tone, and powerfully serene voice fit everything so well! You have a new fan
Thank you so much for your incredibly kind feedback!! 🥰
Can you imagine the pain? Of losing your child to your enemy...
Bruh 😬 that's heartbreaking AF
Of losing your child to your enemy who was once your greatest friend?
You mean the mask of Zoro? That's the whole story 🤣
Heart wrenching
50 Cent did
Moving forward, any theorizing about the Gloam Eyed Queen should be using this video as its starting point. The work you put into this feels so foundational for fully understanding who this character is and what she means to the story cannot be overlooked.
The only thing I would add is that the Black Flame Monk Ashes are dropped by my precious little silver blobs: the Stray Mimic Tear 😉
This is such huge praise, thank you so much!! 🩶 (closest we’ll get to having a mimic heart)
Regarding your comment connecting the Blackflame Monk Ashes to the Stray Mimic Tear, there are already some curious connections to the GEQ and the Nox civilization out there, so I'm sure there's more to explore with that. We definitely can't overlook that detail.
This would explain two aspects of Messmer's flame that always puzzled me -
1) It is possessed of some form of 'spirituality', as Fire Knight Wego uses it to resurrect bodies but cannot call souls to inhabit them. Since the GEQ's Black Flame has since become Destined Death, which was used to kill Godwyn's soul and Ranni's flesh, it seems to have once been able to perform true Death, but Messmer's flame can only relate to half of that function and has no command over souls, since his heritage has long been supressed.
2) The visual appearance of his flames. From the trailer, some people were speculating that he had some connection to Aberrant sorcery since his flame has what seemed to be black thorns emerging from it. However, this theory would make them black serpents.
Also, love the themes BTW, caught the Final Battle in piano when you were discussing Radagon and the Godskin Apostles theme when you were discussing Melina's parentage
Thank you for noticing those little details!! 🥲❤️
I am still not sure there is a real connection between Radagon and the Fire Giants other than his red hair. Or I am missing any real evidence how they are related? In all his incantations and fights he never uses any fire related abilities. The GEQ might have been related to the Fire Giants instead.
@@hipsternesto Radagon doesnt use any Giant stuff because he is ashamed of his heritage. All Fire Giants have red hair and that undoubtably links Radagon to them as a potential descendent. We also know that people of Giant descent can come in ALL sizes. Look at the sword that Dung Eater uses. Its the spine of a smaller giant.
@@hipsternestocall that a... RED herring am I right?
Melina and Messmer being cursed with flame is quite interesting and can actually fit into this theory if we take into consideration:
Radagon’s children with Marika are cursed. Malenia with rot, Miquella with eternal childhood, Messmer with his flame and Melina with her flame.
we can all agree that Melina and Messmer view their flames as a curse. and we know they were born with these curses. therefore it stands to reason that Radagon is their father.
although Radagon is their father. for this theory we can speculate that the mother of Messmer and Melina is the GEQ. if their mother is the GEQ, the bearer of the black flame, that would surely explain their curses being directly related to fire.
Their names starting with M is a certain like the family tree of Marika but how do we know that Messmer and Melina weren’t Re-Named when Marika stole them from the GOQ.
even if Melina was the GEQ, how do we know that her memories were not erased in some way. such as Rya with the tonic of forgetfulness.
Maybe Melina’s curse could have been destined death it’s self and it was removed from her body which would make more sense considering that Black flame and Messmers flame are used as weapons but not Melina’s flame as a Kindling maiden.
evidence to support this is that she uses the Blade of calling which was the template for the Black knife assassins dagger and they use Destined Death.
Melina also has a very similar move set to the Black Knives when she assists the Tarnished during the Morgott Boss fight.
Feel free to add to this theory and ask questions. this theory certainly makes sense in my mind but i may not be explaining it as clearly as possible.
I didnt even catch the Radagon theme in Messmer’s fight. Miyazaki’s approach to this kind of subtle storytelling is so damned brilliant.
They dont sound alike though
Its two different themes
The fans ability to see something that isnt there is brilliantly naive!
Lol
@@Bleilock1lmao then you either don’t have an ear for music or you’re just choosing to act like a pathetic troll, my guess is the latter. Stfu 🤣💀
@@Bleilock1Radagons theme is absolutely referenced in messmers theme, just like how Promised Consort radahns theme contains a leitmotif from Mohgs theme
@@lute6904 wait it does?
@@Bleilock1There is some music that contains some familiarity to other tracks also
@28:42 Messmer does specifically say "Mother...Marika", does he not? They're his dying words when you defeat him
If he were raised to believe Marika is his Mother, of course he'd say that. Him catching/correcting himself and referring to her by name, while dying, is what's interesting.
@@kimberlyh.1090 that wasn’t really the point though. If the claim is that his mother is never referenced by name, then we have an incident of it happening
@@GamesCoffeeCollecting She's also mentioned to be his mom on at least one item, can't remember which one though.
Which, I guess, we're supposed to assume is a lie?
If Marika is Radagon, then Marika technically is his mother in a way
Your work is truly impressive. I had come up with the same theory independently (posted it on reddit and in the comments of some yt videos) and was shocked and happy to see the same theory detailed with good pieces of evidence from the game.
Thank you so much!! ❤️
@@kitetales This was my original theory. Wish I had sent it to you sooner!
Marika by birth was a red haired powerless shaman, from the bottommost sect of the hornsent society. But she was special because she was chosen as an empyrean from the shaman people by her two fingers. Marika in her desperation, fear, and anger towards the hornsent manifested this other self that is Radagon. She was then instructed by her two fingers to use Radagon to commit an act of blasphemy which would later grant her significant power..
Now the hornsent were an advanced civilization that worshipped the crucible, created the gates of divinity by blending life forms together to emulate the crucible, and ultimately succeeded in accessing the powers of the crucible. The hornsent were strongly connected to the godskin. It was the godskin that aided the blending of lifeforms by skinning and making up those gates of corpses. The leader of the godskin, the golden haired gloam eyed queen was the god of the time and represented the crucible. You see crucible like features on the goskin nobles and apostles (tail, crucible like incantations etc). The godskin also had some kind of association with serpents as we have seen a godskin noble at the temple of Eglay.
Here is what Marika and her two fingers plotted: Marika would use Radagon, a powerful and charming champion to seduce and have an affair with the gloam eyed queen. Once seduced, the gloam eyed queen birthed two red haired children, Messmer and Melina. Marika was also bestowed upon a powerful shadow by the two fingers, Maliketh. Once the children were born, Marika would use the opportunity to assassinate the gloam eyed queen using Maliketh. Marika would then pluck out the golden rune of the gloam eyed queen as shown from the trailer. This rune resided within the golden hair of the gloam eyed queen (You see that the body from which the hair is removed looks like godskin and the sky in the scene looks like a golden sky is about to replace a previous gloam colored sky). Marika would therefore assume godhood and would become the golden haired queen.
The seduction, the affair and the betrayal is what lead to gold arising through Marika. And so was shadow born. I think shadow here also refers to the two children Messmer and Melina. Messmer inherited the black flame (Black pyrefly) and serpentine natures from his mother and Melina inherited the gloam eyes and destined death. Marika would seal both of these away. The golden braid that Marika left to the grandmother before she left her village forever, which is her prayer and confession, is simply a part of the same golden hair that she tore off from the gloam eyed queen for the great rune. Marika became a golden haired god but Radagon would remain red haired. The red hair reminded Marika of her sin which is why Radagon always hated his hair.
I was skeptical reading the title but after watching the whole video I am completely sold and love this theory. My biggest gripe with the DLC was the lack of Melina lore, just a line saying she's Messmer's younger sister, but this context that they are actually the children of the Gloam-Eyed Queen and Radagon seems to make so much sense. Melina inheriting her gloam eye from her mother and having it sealed away by Marika.
Also you theorize that Melina's purpose was to use to the fell god's flame to burn the Erdtree but I listen to her dialogue every time I play the game and I believe she makes it quite clear that her original purpose has been lost, it can no longer be fulfilled or does not make sense to fulfill. When she arrives with you in Leyndell she separates for a time to search out a new purpose for herself which she decides is to use herself as kindling so you can penetrate the Erdtree and I really like the idea of Melina escaping her adoptive mother's plans and creating her own destiny for herself. Which still begs the question for me of what was her purpose that Merika charged her with at the time of her birth at the base of the Erdtree that can no longer be accomplished? Or maybe Melina is aware that the Gloam-Eyed Queen is her true mother and her purpose comes from her, maybe GEQ and Radagon had her in Leyndell close to the time of Merika's betrayal, maybe her purpose was one of revenge but the thorns thwart that so she resolves to help the tarnished who will by extension achieve that revenge?
Also one last fun fact for this theory, Melina's faded pink hair color is what you get when you mix the colors of gloam and Radagon's hair color, if you wanna try it for yourself I sampled the colors and got the hex codes of 61597D and 793311 respectively.
Omg i fucking love this theory. It honestly makes so much thematic sense for the story
It also kinda explains the last voicelines of Messmer after his fight... as you said; maybe he knew she wasn't her mother but still saw her as such, but then at the end of his life he finally dropped the farce and called her by her name accepting reality, not only that she wasn't his mother, but that she didn't really care about him at the end.
This makes complete sense. Gloam-Eyed Queen is tied to snakes and black fire. Messmer has the abyssal serpent, and both Melina and Messmer utilize fire. The parallels are completely there.
There are many in game details that point to Messmer and Melina being the first children of Radagon and Marika, in a time when Radagon was not known to have existed, hence the connection to the Virgin Mary, it was probably a lie told by the Golden Order, that her first children were Miracles, born of one person with no sire. I believe there are too many clues that point to their heritage being exactly that. Messmer is like Adam and Lucifier. Being the firstborn of a god, corrupted by the Base serpent due to the curse that is being born to Maradigon, like all their children. Melina uses the same incantation her mother used when she blessed the shaman village (which means her and Messmer likely witnessed Marika’s hallowed goodbye to her home). I’d sooner see the Virgin Abductors as another blasphemous act against the Order, making them look like a mother cradling her child (like the Marika statue only the snake infested cage/womb is use to invoke the idea that Marika on the inside is impure and full of evil), while also representing Rykard’s “Serpentine demeanor.” As you said Rykard is not capable of reproducing regularly, so the Abductors are his surrogate birth mothers, as those taken are turned into Man-Serpents. Idk your theory seems sound, but it leaves out anything that could argue against it for the sake of being correct. Not to mention Messmer has red hair and almost the exact same theme as Radagon in order to help us connect the dots. Such as there are two born to Marika every time, Messmer & Melina, Morgott & Mohg, Malenia & Miquella.
Explain Godwyn and his siblings though.
Seems like you left out Godwyn for the sake of being correct.
@@kylethompson3259 Godwyn isn't born from self-cest, so I guess with Godfrey as a father the pattern is different.
@padrenuestre my point would be that Godwyn was theorized as being the brother to Mogh and Morgott. Just pointing that out. I just want to know if Miquella is Ranni doll. Before the game was released there was talk about making ranni a conjoined twin. After seeing Miquella in the dlc, it makes my pre-dlc theory seem more plausible.
If we assume that the shadow tree was burned and that the land of shadow used to reside in the lands between, it would start to make sense why Layndell is covered in ash.
Oh shit this could explain things
good point, I always wondered why Leyndell had ash before we burned it.
Oh shiiiiii
Meant to do some work alongside this but you dropped one of the best elden ring theories i've ever heard, that i had to stop and lock-in. i really hope you get more reach because your theories are always amazing and remind me of the beauty behind the ambiguity of these games, great work!
Me watching these videos:
"oh I understand now...
...
so is Rykard the Gloam-Eyed Queen?"
BAM! Your third eye just awoken
I’m really loving the last couple of vids you’ve done. So good. Keep ‘em coming.
Thank you so much, I really appreciate the encouraging feedback!!
Holy cow this is the only explanation for a lot of my questions that actually makes sense. Great job here.
@@incendiarypoprocks8700 thank you!! 🥰
I dont know how relevant it is here, but two dialogues that Melina has when speaking of Seamster Boc (aren't widely discussed for whatever reason) makes an interesting case for Melina wondering if being born of a mother means one behaves like Boc does, who cries out of the desire to hear his mother say that he's beautiful, to be reassured. (Plus asking the Tarnished to speak to Boc, noticing how happy it makes him, which is super sweet)
27:10 the suppressing pillar may not be a spiral on the outside but I’m pretty sure if you ride the lift you do slowly rotate if you look at the compass so you are spiralling like a corkscrew while you ascend to the top
Your theories are so cohesive and coherent. They connect actual dots. Amazing work. You would make great anthropologist and or archeologist.
I think the most important part of this puzzle is the dlc story trailer. When the trailer talks about "a seduction and a betrayal", it shows Marika walking up to the divine gate, pulling some golden threads from some sort of cloth, and holding them up to ascend to godhood.
I think the golden threads represent hair/gold/grace/runes, that the cloth is a godskin swaddling cloth, that the cloth held an infant, ie Marika's child, and that she sacrificed him/her to ascend to godhood. The child was born of a "seduction", hence the hornsent grandam calling Marika a "Strumpet".
We know Miquella had to divest himself of his empyrean flesh to ascend to godhood, and Marika did it as well, albeit differently (her child is her flesh and blood after all).
This also thematically gives weight to how Marika's curse is how every child of hers is "cursed" to be imperfect, as that is fitting for someone who sacrificed her first-born to attain power.
I also think that this first-born child would be the one featured in the walking mausoleums.
woah! the theory that marika sacrificed her child to ascend godhood makes sense with what the ghost says near pilgrimage church, they talked of demigod cradled in a mausoleum and marika's unwanted child. initially, I thought it was about messmer.
Don't think it's "cloth" but flesh that she'd pulling it out from,
like an eye lid and a dead eye.
Betting on it being the previous age's god, which is with whom that age's elden ring would reside -- which is something she (/any other empyrean) needs if our own character's ending is anything to go by.
Thing is, hornsents call her all sorts of things. And a go to slander for a woman would be of the sxl deviant variety. Figure that the seduction is an ideological one since she usurped their demographic/genetic supremist dominance in the area and decimated their civilization -- a single shaman(=slave/human-sacrifice caste) girl. "Betrayal" could also be a shaman not knowing their place and having the very evil audacity to not get in a jar to potentially become a saint as ordered-- which, getting the vibe that this was the hornsent's equivalent to artificially making a Lord candidate not unlike the nox+friends. But instead of being Numen with a low birthrate and going for artificiant life, they take hornsent criminals, keep their biological supremacy (seamless mending flesh and all that = the horns stay) while mixing them with a docile, subservient shaman sacrifice consciousness -- like Alexander's / the small jar's personality. A rebirth and domination of "evil"/criminal will, random criminals or dissidents all.
On the cursed children thing, have you considered the eastern mythology take on it, which _would_ be different from a western one. Like a double edge sword curse of divine spiritual power with side effects rolled up in need to employ that power but also the shame with it's nature, rather than divine intervention 'death upon your 1st born sons' as consequences for your choices by an old testament God. Fromsoft tends to have an overlaying japanese/eastern take on all of their lore, rather than a western one. And the dark souls parallels are....well, _there_ in the entire world build -- Nameless King etc. anyone?
If we run with the buddhist ascension take then she can't sacrifice her kid to conquesting appetites and earthly attachments under false pretenses and still ascend . Like miquella, she'd cast things off, attachment & love & desire/appetites(for familial attachment etc. any 'earthly' thing) -- lofty love would remain perhaps, for the transcendent divine laws of existence? If she'd cast off her love like miquella had, then leaving messmer here wouldn't be personal. Like casting off Trina wasn't personal _at that point_ . Like Ranni casting off Blaidd & co. _at that point_ ; _which, while Miquella was dropping off bits of himself in the shadow realm (lol) did Ranni just drop her entire rune on the moon and call it a day??? Anyways_ It doesn't appear as Marika's cast him off, perhaps a family, duty, honor angle with shame/fear for his deformity -- though shame & fear would have been cast away at some point, timeline unclear. She tasked the guy with an eternal war and left him to it, unclear if there was a win condition & he'd not reached it, if miquella ascending would have cleared up Messmer's condition, or if eternal battle(happens in a lot of mythologies with demigods/heroes all over the place) was actually the deal whether he knew it or not -- he's an erdtree-immortal demigod so..... well no still not confident that i even know what that means in this context _miyazaki has done it again!_
That whole bit about the Junji Ito spiral manga made something jump out at me-- earlier today I realised that one of the Glintstone sorceries is literally called Shard Spiral, formed by two comets traveling in an intertwined spiraling shape with one another! Coupled with the information from the Spira incant, that the spiral is a "normalised Crucible current, that will one day form a column that stretches to the gods", this spiral pattern is integral to life in Elden Ring's universe, and is seen everywhere from ancient times to the stars.
Festive Grease directly ties the Golden Order to Dominula Village who already have ties to the Erdtree sigil in the festive garbs. As the grease is made by Erdtree priests. It feels significant.
Hi, i discovered your channel just yesterday and wantwd to say that i was rally intrigued by your "jar goddess" theory and i think it was spot on, also you have a very "storytelly" approach to the lore which is very refreshing to hear since you take the most vague aspects of the lore and create very romantic interpretetion while also not ignoring the most glaring and factual aspects of the lore. That said there are parts of this videos' theory im really not fond of, still there is stuff which i think makes a lot of sense. First of all, i can agree that melina fought alongside marika and messmer in the war against giants, its true that there is no evidence whatsoever, but is a cool image and this way we could finally have an answer for the impalement of the giants, (also is not impossible for marika to have concieved children with radagon while she was married with godfrey) but i dont think its possible for melina to have partaken in the war as the gloam eyed queen. The part about the flame monks is just incorrect, the flame monks were an order created for the tending of the flame marika tried to seal inside the last giant, not as an offensive force that needed to fight it, meaning they could have not have existed prior to the extermination of the giants, and so, the blackflame monks, being a cult that separated from the original fire monks, could not have existed in the war to fight along side the gloam eyed queen. Also the black flame is described as "weakened" after maliketh sealed destined death, and i stand with the part of the community that believes that originally the flame weaved by the gloam eyed queen and the godskins was the destined death flame, and after marika gave that flame to maliketh she left the godskins with a weakend death flame, the blackflame. I like to think that melina was the former bearer of destined death, we know that there's nothing marika fears more than the flame of ruin, and we know that eyes are one of the most important conduits for outer gods influence, so maybe marika pluked destined death from the elden ring and put it in melina's eye socket giving her the gloam eye, sealing death in her trusted daughter while also driving away the infulence of the flame of ruin from within her, giving her the same treatment as messmer. For the abdutor virgins, i think it can be perfectly explained by expanding on your theory, since i believe what you said was believable. We must not forget that the ABDUCTOR virgings were used primarly to abduct people to volcano manor, since rykard used many subjects for esperiments. I think there is also a clear connection between the godskins and the albinaurics, so, what if the gloam eyed queen, after rebelling against marika prepared her apostasy on the depths of the volcano, abducting albinaurics using the virgins and swaddling their flesh in the amniotic sac of the serpent creating her apostles?
Yeah, I agree Messmer is the son of the GEQ and is also Melina's brother. Before the DLC, I was torn between Melina being the GEQ or her daughter but now that we have more information, it has to be the daughter. I do wish we had more info about Radagon and GEQ in the land of shadow. Also the Minoan snake goddess is a very interesting find.
24:10 Rya appears in human form despite being a serpent, totally makes sense that eiglay could too.
There is a painting of burning Erdtree in the Volcano manor, hinting that the Erdtree has burnt before. This also ties loosely back to the Abductor virgins, since they are mainly Rykards troops.
Good point. Taking this a step further, I guess this could be why the priests who had visions of fire were getting punished as well. It wasn't that they were seeing predictions of The Tarnished burning the Erdtree; it was that they were aware it had happened previously when they shouldn't have been. Heresy indeed.
I cannot quote a reference to this, but I recall hearing a lot of talk about a Great Tree that had predated the Erdtree and the belief that the Erdtree is just a visage standing in place of where the Great Tree had previously been burnt so if those were correct then the painting could have been of that.
@@Tasytot Oh, you’re right. I do recall hearing something about a Greattree. I need to do some searching on that.
But be carefull we also know prophets had visions of the erdtree burining and that they were punished, what is more blasphemous than Rykard having a painting of this heretical talk in his manor? He was after all the one punishing dissidents which most likely brought him in contact with all that heretical stuff until he was one himself.
“the five ladies watching” i feel so special
Some tree was previously burned by Melina before, we see ashes in both Lyndell and areas of the shadow land.
Her hands were also burned as well. My theory is that the end of the age of plenty was melina being sent to burn the scadutree and her original physical body. But given her flame type only killed herself in body to do. To do it again in the base game meant burning away her spirit as well.
I would kill for a lore collab between you and Smoughtown. I've only seen this video of yours and the one about Marika being the jar saint and I must say I love your attention to detail and how you link things together. Additionally, I personally feel that this is the strongest theory about the GEQ out there, as I share some of your thoughts about the theory of her simply being Melina. That theory makes some sense, but I also found it somewhat wanting in a rather intangible way. But Melina being offspring of the GEQ? Now that just FITS imo.
Anyway great stuff, I eagerly anticipate watching more of your work
Considering Messmer’s red hair, possibly connecting him to Radagon, I think it points to him being Radagon and Marika’s child considering that it fits with all of the children they had together being cursed. Malenia’s rot, Miquella’s youth and Messmer’s massive tapeworm. Even have the M naming scheme. Additionally, if Melina is really the sister that was mentioned in Messmer’s kindling, and since her name in the game data is roughly Marika’s daughter, that would also make Messmer’s her son too. Additionally his flame is entirely different from destined death or black flame. No lingering damage. I appreciate the different view on the subject but I think that it is as simple as it is presented as.
Seems like his flame is of "greed". That's a "serpent" thing.
Remember - FromSoft decided to drop the whole Round Table lore, cause it was not really important. Yet they kept the part about ugly "snake-human seeex" ritual in the game. I think they are kinda telling us where Mesmer got his snakes and flame.
GEQ could have cursed her. Her first children would be cursed with one of the things that could harm her the most-fire.
@@WeAreTheReapersinteresting! I definitely view the omen curse as something coming from the horn sent so it'd be wild if they were responsible for all the fucked up demigods
The putrescent knight is called gloom eyed queen knight, so the names in game files don’t have much meaning. And Marika could have easily changed the names of Melina and Messmer to fit the whole M naming thing
@@MoonEclipse2003 I think there's no "queen" in its name, it's just gloom eyed knight.
“Yes, gentlemen- and the five ladies watching..” 5:58 🤣🤣😹
Just subscribed! I love the theory, great job on compiling everything in an easily digestible manner.
Also the mist that transports you is kinda like the mist that surrounds messmer in second stage when he starts teleporting
I really appreciate your music choice for your videos, relaxing and nice but not too distracting
Ok, so I was actually thinking about the same theory as you. Radagon seducing the GEQ is a cool idea but I eventually found too many problems with it.
You mention that none of the items of Messmer directly mention Marika's name. But let's look at some of the references to his mother and him as a child:
- "A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow." - So I just don't see how this could relate to the GEQ? It's clearly Marika's doing that he's in the realm of shadow. He also has Marika's seal in her eye. We can see the same sign on her runes, her scarseal items and the top of her version of the Elden Ring itself.
- "They will accompany him yet, in his hideous new form, born when he destroyed the grace granted by his mother." - This mentions the very act he does during the fight where he destroys the grace in one of his eyes. The same eye that has Marika's Rune on it.
Sure, it could be considered weird that her name isn't mentioned directly but to me it actually seems the opposite. If it was mentioned that "Marika sealed his eye" or "Marika hid him in the land of shadow" that would put more doubt on him being her son, calling her his mother makes it actually more obvious that that is what she is.
There's also some things that suggest that the fight with the GEQ was much later. In the Lands of Shadow we see figures of Marika without the infinity sign behind her. The infinity sign suggests that it's her figure as "Marika the Eternal", which would be after she pluck the rune of death from the elden ring after the defeat of the GEQ. The fact that we don't see these statues in the DLC kind of suggests the crusade was before the removal of the rune of death and thus the defeat of the Gloam-eyed Queen.
Edit: There's an additional problem if you want to tie the seduction the DLC mentioned as something that happened before the scene at the gates of divinity. We know the blackflame monks joined the apostles after the war against the giants since at that point they were already guardians of the flame. But Marika was already a god since the erdtree existed if not from the beginning then at least by the end of that war:
- "Guidance has delivered ye through ordeal to the place ye stand. Put the giants to the sword and confine the flame atop the mount. Let a new epoch begin. An epoch glistening with life. Brandish the Elden Ring, for the Age of the Erdtree!"
So as we see Marika was already a god. But the seduction would have to happen leading up to the event at the gates of divinity so before she became a god.
I agree with some of this. The descriptions are obviously talking about Marika. However, the evidence of "Abductor Virgins", the snakes and flame in Mesmer, the "seduction and betrayal", Mesmer looking a lot like Godskin Apostles, has too many links to GEQ. It may not be exactly as described here, but something is happening here I do believe.
I don't think there is enough strength in the marika statue thing you mentioned. It's just like: "this cloth is different, so definitely giant story implications". It could be a hint, but it isn't much to go on.
Also, the blackflame monks were attracted by the flame, not necessarily the GEQ. Additionally, it isn't solid fact that the fire monks are AFTER the war of the giants. Some evidence points to this, but the forge being very ancient (similar architecture of divine towers), and the line saying they came to Liurnia to find who stole their flame, kind of shows that maybe they were already guardians and came to find Radagon/Marika. I agree that the way you are interpreting it is a possibility, but it isn't guaranteed at all.
A "theory" this woman says, only to then start spitting straight facts. Bravo, I'm fully on-board for this idea. Its all supported with stuff that already exists in-game and meshes well with everything we already know. 10/10, my new favorite lore channel.
Oh YOU!! 🥰 Thank you so much for the kind words, it’s so much appreciated
There has to be a connection between the GEQ, Placidusax, destined death, the hornsent and the part of the SOTE trailer with Marika at the Divine Gate
Wowowowow. Why did you put Placidusax in there? I don't see how he would be connected with any of this in any way.
@@tinminator8905well, Placi was Elden Lord or something akin to an Elden Lord in a prehistoric era in which he ruled until his consort went Mia and never came back. What if the carcass that Marika pulled the "Strands of hair" from in the SOTE Storytrailer were the remains of Placis Missing consort? Would make for an interesting theory, and the way his consort went missing and ended up in the Land of shadow Was Bayle.
All Evidenceless theory, but besides placi missing a consort theres not much to go by.
i think its Markia taking grace from the GEQ's eye in giant snake form
@@tinminator8905 yeah the main remaining mystery for placi is who or what his missing god who was "fled" was. Lots of theories but it in effect is responsible for or attached to the transition between ages of dragons into the proto erdtree society. So the common theory candidates are elden beast, marika herself, or GeQ. I guess bayle could be in the running too altho it seems they were opposed
@@Shmethan Why would that be a theory and on what basis? His god that fled is simply his god that fled. If he hadn’t fled then we would see him in game. The entirety of the ancient dragon society is far older than any of the things you listed. We just don’t see it in game. It is a mystery. Why do people have to connect things that have no connection?
Amazing lore video, fastest subscribe I've ever clicked. I did an entirely blind playthrough and I lost my mind checking social media and seeing almost no one talking about this theory. Your supporting evidence is really strong.
Random things I think are interesting to contextualize:
1. The hornsent era seemed to have worshipped the crucible and had no elden ring, finding a different way, a method the Noxians would imitate to create divinity. I think this juxtaposes interestingly to Placidusax and his reign as Elden Lord. I am not sure who his God was that fled, but I find it interesting to think the GEQ could've been connected. Perhaps she had seduced Bayle, who has horn-like (crucible) aspects? The interesting parallel between Dragons, winged snakes, and snakes as a line of descent is Rykard makes it clear a serpent never dies. The serpent will forever be reborn. Bayle's heart has the exact same suggestion, implying that after being devoured he will surely reincarnate. I don't think these are coincidences and could be an interesting place to look. It's possible how GEQ/Messmer/Marika and Rya/Rykard/Tanith could reflect Bayle/GEQ/Serpent and how a human host could provide a taboo birth (Daedicar's Woe).
2. That may be where Marika even came up with the idea of betrayal through seduction. The circular story-telling abounds, and it would make sense for Marika to use a tried and true tactic on the GEQ and then do it AGAIN with Radagon on Rennala and the Carians. Basically a way to deal with opponents who cannot be defeated in direct combat. It also makes more sense for Radagon/Marika to be her final attempt at creating perfect/divine children, rather then Melina/Messmer being born to her and Radagon before Godfrey's lineage began as other's theorize.
3. This theory is also strengthened through the timeline. If Messmer's crusade came so late after the Abundant Erdtree Order, why would she only then decide to sacrifice her children? Mohg and Morgott are not banished for this crusade? It only makes too much sense that the stolen children would be something so damning if the truth got out it would harm any era of order she hoped to create. I think seeing the Omen influence on her children is what made her realize the crusade was necessary and Messmer was the perfect pawn for this.
4. Speaking to Melina's role, I'm not so sure she burned the Scadutree because to become kindling seems to be a death sentence. I think when Messmer and Melina were born from Radagon/GEQ two things split off. Messmer received the abyssal serpent and a flame that can burn divinity. Melina received the GEQ/vessel ability and the ability to become kindling to burn divinity. Her body may have burned when she received the GEQ's essence, similar to how the scarlet rot impacted Malenia as a child.
5. Lastly, Rykard definitely reflects Jar champions, his body being composed of multiple dead champions. It's also interesting to think he's hosting a ressurected god and almost creating a divinity gate between him and the pillars of his lair. I think this mirrors numen flesh melding harmoniously. If the GEQ was numen, it would make sense her children could also be melded together to form crucible like aspects (god-skin apostles). Rykard probably learned all of this at Bonny Village.
Sorry for the wall of text but your video really helped ground some floating theories!!
Thank you so much!! And your comments shared here are incredible; I really love all of the incredible input and insight I've gotten on this video and it's given me so many more ideas to think about!!
I saw another video which found the 2 serpents intertwined in a spiral right behind Rykkard's throne, where we see a magic wielder serpent man. That might support your findings too.
I think I've got something on the origins of the Gloam-Eyed Queen that I've been piecing together for a bit now. Since the Gload-Eyed Queen and Marika are both Empyreans, this means they were both chosen by the Two Fingers at some point. Ranni, Miquella and Malenia would've had contact with the Two Fingers through the Golden Order and Marika would've had contact through the Finger Ruins of Dheo near Shaman Village. In which case, I think the Gloam-Eyed Queen would've made contact through the Finger Ruins of Rhia near the Cerulean Coast. Considering that Marika's finger ruins were close to her hometown, it would make sense that the Gloam-Eyed Queen's would've been near hers.
This makes a lot of things about the Cerulean Coast and Charo's Hidden Grave make more sense, because those areas have connections to death all over them. For example, the coffins and the fact that the hidden grave is the only place in the land of shadow (I think) that has a Death Rite Bird and a Tibia Mariner. There's also a Ghostflame Dragon basically the first few steps into the Cerulean Coast, but those are everywhere so that doesn't say much. Though I guess Jagged Peak is also next to the Cerulean Coast which might connect the other Ghostflame Dragons here maybe?
What got me thinking about the Gloam-Eyed Queen's connection to this place further would be the Coffin Fissure. When the trailer showing Marika at the Divine Gate came out, lots of people though there was a connection to the Gloam-Eyed Queen in that scene since the air around the Gate was Gloam-colored, but that's also a color that's prominent in the Coffin Fissure. Also, the Putrescent Knight's name in the files is the "Gloam-Eyed Knight" so I think the Gloam-Eyed Queen has to be important here somehow, because the coffins and the knight don't seem like they could be very deeply connected to St. Trina, timeline-wise. I also think that while these areas could be where the Gloam-Eyed Queen came from, I don't think it's where the Godskins came from or that she herself was a serpent, because as far as I could tell there doesn't seem to be anything there connecting them (I could be wrong here though). Though if there's a connection between serpents and dragons in Elden Ring, I could see her being a form of ancient dragon like Florissax who could change into a human form and whose dragon form was serpentine (Bayle and Placi prove that not all ancient dragons had the same biology and Jagged Peak is also right there).
TLDR: The Gloam-Eyed Queen probably came from the southern land of shadows (Cerulean Coast/Charo's Hidden Grave/Coffin Fissure) because she's an Empyrean and the Finger Ruins of Rhia are there.
Oh, I love this idea! I actually makes so much sense. As for the ghostflame dragons, they can kinda go wherever they want, so they're not part of anybody's jurisdiction; but, there may be a timeline where the GEQ ruled the Lands Between and the Shadow Lands before Marika usurped her, or where Marika and the GEQ were allies (so posting a dragon outside the shaman village wouldn't be weird). It could also still be that both ladies were from Shaman Village and they each just encountered the Two Fingers in these ruins. Either way, I hadn't put those elements together until now. Good thinking!
When you say the Scadu was burnt - I think it may be that (as is a quite common theory) the *Erdtree* was burnt once before. The Scadu then, being created after this, reflects the "truth" of the spectral Golden Erdtree of the modern era :)
I'm definitely more partial to Melina being the GEQ (and therefore embodying Destined Death more than the flame of ruin) but regardless, great video!
Seeing the overlap on what all different angles on theorizing agrees on is really interesting, and I think it helps assertain the "most reasonable" middle ground ideas.
There's definitely something significant about the GEQ/Godskins being associated with Serpents and Eiglay - those damn winged snakes are up to something! Its odd how Messmer's are considered "wise friends" despite every other assocation with snakes.
You're also the only person I've seen mention the snake-columns in Rykard's arena! Thought I was taking crazy pills turning that one over in my head.
@@IngeniousNinja Melina can't be the gloam eyed queen she wouldn't have been born yet. The godskin went on their God hunt prior to black flame losing its true power from the sealing of the rune of death which we know was also the formation of Marika's golden order. (And the fact there was a God hunt at all as when Marika takes over she leaves herself as the one and only God, we see this in how all her children and even the elden lords are referenced as demigods which would say before marika's rule there were many gods.)
We also know Melina was born at the base of the erdtree which would've been post marika's ascension as the erdtree is meant to house marika/elden beast.
(A thought I just had writing this as I have said this many times now however starting to possibly see the option that maybe Melina is the rebirth of the gloam eyed queen as snakes never die so marika uses the rune of rebirth on her to wipe her mind. However the issue with this is that Melina has absolutely zero connection to black flame, even her butterflies are red with red flames (interesting her brother's are black with deep red flames) maybe Melina being born after the defeat of the gloam eyed queen left her further from her mother's flame than Messmer)
This is easily one of the best lore channels. Really impressive in such a saturated environment to stand out. Love your work - great editing, and really easy to watch and understand. Looking forward to more!
Thank you so much for the compliment!! 💙
There seems to have been a burning of the erdtree and i guess the scadutree at the same time because theres a ton of ash in leyndell, that gets even worse after we burn the erdtree. So the scadutree looking like how the erdtree should, burnt and decaying, makes sense. I think that marked the end of the age of plenty, the first burning of the erdtree.
Which could explain how melina has burn scars across her body already. Plus with her connection to destined death and flames she probably sacrificed her physical body like ranni to do it, but survived as a spirit knowing she'd have to do it again
People aren't considering strongly enough the possibility that the Scadutree is ACTUALLY the Erdtree's Shadow which appeared and grew at the same moment that Marika planted/formed the Erdtree.
It is the tree of umbra. The darkest place of the shadow cast by the Erdtree. Now it's left because Marika ripped the Lands Between in two and veiled the Shadow Realm. It remains connected to the Erdtree metaphysically and so when something happens to one (in theory) it happens to the other. The Erdtree is dying and has been shattered, so now the Scadutree is crumbling from within as well.
This is now my headcanon, it makes a lot of sense. I find the rival idea interesting... on top of the snake and tree connection, GEQ is like a queen of death/snakes and has connections to fertility (all the birth related stuff and snakes in this game...) where Marika is like a queen of life/trees and has connections to numen that are "seldom born" and shaman that become trees, all this everlasting and eternal life stuff compared to the rebirth that comes with death. Lots of numen connections to creating life artificially too.
What makes so much sense about this theory is that it works really well thematically. Marika treats Messmer and Melina like crap because they’re not actually her kids, which is very George R. R. Martin lol
Marika told Catelyn Stark to hold her beer
True, the only ones who were treated as badly where Mogh and Morgot who where born as Omen her sworn enemies. Godwyn, Malania and Micqullia (I can spell names today) where treated very well in comparison
Edit: 1 Marika gave brith to the twins and they knew Ratagon (who him and Mirika shared a body, she didn’t 1 lock them away, 2 send them on a wild goose chase or ask them to basically become a living torch, that is much better then Mogh, Morgot, Meliena and Mesmer. Yes Malania and Micqulla were born with curses but Marika didn’t do anything to them after their brith as far as I know. Yes, they were treated better then Mesmer, Melina, Mogh and Morgot.
Marika treats all of her children like crap, the main reason probably being that they were all cursed by the hornsent, none of her children are born normal, on the other side Radagon's children are all born whithout any cursed, i don't think she hates them but they probably reminde her of the people who put her whole family in a jar and torture her whole village, so understandable, Godwyn may be the only child that escaped the curse
@@blaquerose121 Miquella and Malenia never met Marika, she probably hates them too
@@kingbradley6602godwyn didnt escape it, his curse just activates on death
This is my new headcanon, lol. I absolutely love lore and theory videos. I really enjoyed this one, thank you
Thank you so much!! 🥲💙
I like the theory that Messmer and Melina are geq's kids, but I think geq is Marika. i think maliketh sealing away destined death and defeating the queen, was forcing Marika to follow the greater wills order and become a vessel. the abductor virgin is geq with Messmer and the statue in Messmer's room is after she had to seal away destined death and cast away geq side. and Melina is the gloam eyed queen (/her kid) in the way that Millicent is related to malenia, they both represent something their mother lost.
I hope this made sense omg
it does say "in this too, she betrayed him" or some such in reference to sealing destined death, so perhaps she knew that giving maliketh destined death would be torturous for him, and also that she had somehow betrayed him before, perhaps akin to how ranni betrayed blaidd by resisting the greater will.
your music selection for these videos is amazing
Thank you so much!! I’m just so happy to have found such incredible channels that allow for their work to be shared! 🥲
Interesting! Love the video - and the background music ofc 😎
Oh my gosh HI!!! ❤️ Thank you SO much for all of the beautiful renditions. Consider me your biggest fangirl! 🥲
is it the godskin apostle's theme?
Mind-blowing presentation :) super on board! Sick find on the Duellist set!
The insides of the Abductor Virgins also seem to be lined with skin which would only strengthen your idea xD
Have wondered for a while if the parallel between Messmer & Melina is even clearer in that Melina also had a snake in her body, which no longer remains having burned her body away to live on as a soul?
Could tie in with the first burning of The Erdtree / the burning of The Scadutree to lay out why the serpent is then seen as treacherous before Messmer's exile?
The parallels between the Irises of Grace & Occultation also make me wonder if the latter was involved with Melina's state somehow as well? Always loved the Beast Eye connection but it feels like there's something there too?
The Black Knight set also seems way more similar to Maliketh's than anything else - could tie into their shared links to Destined Death?
Bayle's heart also suggests he will never die, almost like there's something serpentine about dragons or vice versa? The Twinbird is seen depicted across Farum Azula to tie in generally to Death via Ghostflame, which now we've seen as blue to indicate a potential divide of red & blue black flames to create/split Destined Death?
The three-headed serpent pillar could even be a reference to Melina & Messmer being the children of three beings - Marika-Radagon & GEQ?
I kinda like the idea of Melina inheriting more clear aspects of both her mothers along with her father xD
Would also be quite funny if Messmer's final words of "Mother...Marika..." was actually referring to two separate people!
The name Melina also apparently finds its roots in the Greek for honey, which could tie to the honeyed rays of gold, and perhaps the kindness of grace a la the secret Erdtree spell?
Then to possibly back up GEQ still being Melina & not her mother xD I do like the idea that Melina's "I have set my heart upon the world that I would have." etc was once something she said to Marika, while in control of the isolated Destined Death. She's definitely quite focused on the "principles we would follow" to guide the world - perhaps Messmer saw her efforts as justified on her own terms to not intervene? Perhaps his fire reminds him of what he lost within that clash?
You provoked a lot of thoughts sorry xD great job again!
Fantastic!!!💜💜💜 amazing the way you out this stuff together!! I love it!!!
Thank you so much!!! You led me on the right track with the Godskin comparison!! 🥲💙
@@kitetales I’m so impressed with the find on the armour of her face!!!! And the virgins and just everything!!! YOURE BRILLIANT!!
So another little tidbit to help with this:
We know Maliketh defeated GEQ, and the armors of Mesmers Black Knight's look a lot like maliketh's black armor, lined with gold, and white beast hair. This continues the theme of mockery with omen killers, and furnace golems.
I think having two finger ruins is implying there were two empyreans here. GEQ and Marika. If they were empyrean sisters it also kind of fits with GRR Martin's incest themes lol (Radagon and GEQ, Miquella and Radahn, other books by him haha.)
So, a thought just occurred to me. How much older is Marika than Radagon? We know her as Marika the Eternal, so possibly she's way, WAY older than everyone else, right?
What if Marika helped to create Radagon? He's appears as human as the Tarnished, but then he also has some aspects of the Fire Giants. Could she have engineered him from scratch?
The only life to be created from scratch in elden ring are the albinaurics. So unless you want to say that radagon is an albinauric I don't think that's the case. Also, it's clearly implied that radagon has fire giant ancestors. You can't have ancestors if you're the first of your creation.
@@ericohm9474 Fair points, but then where does Radagon come from? We know that Godfrey was Hoarah Loux, but not about Radagon. And how was a human supposed to mix with a Fire Giant? They aren't even the same species. Unless we think that Radagon was jarred....
@@CJusticeHappen21I wish so deeply that we'd get radagons origin. I think the desc of marikas hammer mentions it's from wherever the numen are from, another world or something like that. And then in the pre dlc info they said the land of shadows was where marika first set foot in the lands between. The fact that there's actually an insanely low amount of radagon related references in the dlc to me implies that he was introduced to the equation after marikas godly origin and leaving the land of shadow. Oo something interesting I noticed today, the desc for Radagons Icon mentions he studied sorceries and incants because he was trying to "become complete" and that's the origins of a lot of people's alchemical/rebis takes on radika
@@ericohm9474 perhaps not from scratch, but from components of other already living things, aspects of fire giants and shamans. the albinaurics come from scratch as they have no human or otherwise components, they are entirely synthetic, but if radagon were made similar to how Marika was made, he would not be from scratch.
Don't you think it's more likely for the gloam eyed Queen to be Saint who rose through the amalgamation of all life through the horrific rituals of the hornsent as she and her progeny look the part, aesthetically speaking at least. Queen Marika betrayed her by reaching into her womb and pulling the golden threads, which could symbolize the true heir of the greater will. But, Marika's ascension being a false one caused the greater will to stop convening to the fingers
it could be the gloam eye'd queen was also a creation of the jars, just like marika.
I had this thought as well. Perhaps the GEQ was mixed with the snake skin that's found outside of Bonny village and Marika wasn't?
girl, you did it. it was great. that really kind of ties it together so good.
Thank you so much!! 🥰
It makes it a lot easier for me who bellies the fell god, geq, and marika are aspects of a single being
Love that spirited away soundtrack in the background ❤. Thought we wouldn't notice but we did.
Oh and then the Toussaint soundtrack. A true woman of culture.
I have to say of all the comments, you might be the only one that noticed! So you officially have great tastes. 💙
I believe the word you were looking for is Parthenogenesis. Always cool theories though.
That’s the one!! Getting my flora and fauna mixed up
@@kitetales the mages in the catacombs are holding babies also, intereating baby sitters in the game.
THIS IS SO GOOD!!!! Another lore video banger omg… I’ve had so many new thoughts about ideas from the DLC but I’ve struggled to piece them together, which is exactly what this video was able to do! I can’t tell you how satisfying watching this from start to finish was, it’s definitely my favorite interpretation so far!!!
That is such a high compliment thank you so so much!! ❤️
Dude this was a 10/10. I've been theorizing about this since you mentioned it 2 weeks ago, and you completely nailed it with this video.
Thank you so much!! I’m so happy so many people enjoyed it! 💙
I do love your style of thinking. Your theories start as totaly out there but on every video in the end, i am covinced about them.
Keep it up !
Mwahaha another one for my web of insanity!! 🕷️ (thank you very much that’s a high compliment to get the point across!)
Hornsent aren't into snakes because they remain coiled, low, and don't stretch up
Your video showed up as a recommendation when I woke up this morning. Didnt recognize the channel as there are so many new Soulsborne lore channels these days. I read the title and was immediately skeptical as hell. But what I love more than the lore we all know, are new takes and crazier lore dives. I have to admit, after watching your video, not only have you earned a new subscriber, youve thoroughly convinced me. I cant wait to see what others come up with using your vid as a jumping off point. Damn fine work friend. Keep up the good work. Looking forward to future uploads.
“Yes gentlemen and the five ladies watching” she knows her audience 😂
"O Erdtree, you shall burn." Yep Melina's definitely channeling her Fell God heritage. This is an EXCELLENT video, as was your previous re: Marika. Quickly jumped to my fav ER content creator and theorist.
Thank you so much!! That’s such high praise! 🥰
strap in boys we in for a good one
I am blown away by the visual motifs being connected between the Abductor Virgins and the GEQ. I have been searching for serpent motifs for a long time and I can't believe I missed the one on the Duelist Set!! Awesome job.
Also finding the historical inspiration in the Greek snake columns is BEAUTIFUL. Likely a holdover from the serpent goddesses that we still see remnants of in early Greek culture (became "evil" Medusa), Minoan culture like you said, I believe one of the Phoenician snake goddesses was called "Tanit". A lost serpent goddess from the Bronze Age.
Oh my gosh hi you!! ❤️ Thank you so much for the kind words!! And yes you are 100% right about the Phoenician goddess Tanit, whom I’ve wondered for a while was the inspiration in part for Tanith. The jars are also extremely reminiscent of the urns in the Phoenician burial plots for infant sacrifices and the castanets Tanith had also originated with them; I definitely think we get to see a few design inspirations to Phoenician history!
“Born at the BASE of the Erdtree” “BASE Serpent”? Is the base of the Erdtree the top of enir Elim? It’s my theory that the shadow lands are below the lands between(so called because they are between the original shadow lands and the divine) and that the coffins as usual travel up and down like the smaller coffins that we use in waterfalls
Hmmm now that I’m halfway through, I think it’s more likely that Melina was indeed born to Marika, but then rebelled against her mother. When she reminisces about burning an Erdtree…. She’s not remembering the Erdtree as we know it, but the Scadutree that her mother had her burn. After she rebelled in her famous Godskin rebellion.
Ooooo that’s so good!!! I haven’t heard the coffin thing yet about them being used in that way between the Land of Shadow!
@@kitetales😅 it’s my personal theory. I think it explains many different things. They appear like ships because they move many different people at once, but unlike a ship they go from higher and lower planes of life and death(underworld). We see this pattern with coffins everywhere. I believe the shadow lands are the original plane of existence and that the hornsent built enir elim to try to “storm the heavens” as it were, sort of like a Tower of Babel. The divine gate leads UP to the lands between, a higher plane of existence and Marika used the coffins to move many people up and down between shadow lands and Lands between.
I think this ALSO explain part of the symbol of the new Elden Ring, you can see that the rings hang between two half circles, as opposed to the previous Elden Ring which was only below a half circle of divinity. This suggests that the current Elden Ring belongs to the “lands between” two stages of life, divine and death.
Edit: ok just finished your video, very nice, congrats on the work 🎉
I just discovered your channel and I'm just blown away by the amount of research and citations that go into making your videos. You've earned a subscriber. Keep up the excellent work.
i never thought someone would put marika with virgin in one sentence
She's such a strumpet!
That wanton strumpet.
Hey! I was just playing through Volcano Manor and I noticed some things which might be interesting.
Firstly, some of the Abductor Virgins have weapons, those weird hammer things they launch out on chains, that are shaped in an upturned arc, the same shape as Marika’s crucifix, speculated to be her great rune. The snakeskin in the church of Eiglay is also stretched out to form Marika’s Rune, looking remarkably like the Divine Gate at Enir Elim. This is the same shape we see in the Rune Arcs as well, which are said to be “basins where blessings can pool.”
I’m not quite sure what to make of the snakeskin being strung up in this shape, unless it had something to do with the GEQ originally having to do with both life AND death. This would make sense for the Hornsent, who love cycles and coexist with deathbirds and rot scorpions, and would be a valid reason for Hornsent to say Marika “usurped” her divinity.
This comment will likely go unnoticed but we actually DO have context for another similar Erdtree having been burnt before as it’s depicted in a unique painting in Rykard’s manor. The burning of that Erdtree then becoming the Scadutree may have sparked the war against the giants in the first place and thus established the “cardinal sin” that to burn another would be considered blasphemous.
Really cool! Never really thought of the abducter virgins being too important