Placidusax's god was the former vessel of the Elden Ring. The Dragons and the Beastmen were the first civilization to had the Elden Ring, in fact, it was the Greater Will who bestowed intelligence to the beastmen.
Nothing says that about GW giving them intelligence. If you actually read the descriptions, it seems to imply the beastmen were placed there as guards LATER ON in the history, around the time of Maliketh still being relevant to Marika’s needs. Dragons were first, then Beastmen far later on
@@foxywoxy1915 Moreover, the Cinquedea, which is the source description of intelligence being bestowed upon the Beastmen, states that the five fingers is only symbolic of that intelligence, not linked causally. More-moreover, we know that Metyr was the first falling star to land on the Lands Between, so we can place her arrival to be just shortly before the invention of glintstone Sorcery and coinciding with meteorites becoming culturally significant. Farum Azula has no connection with meteorites or sorcery, save that one smashed into the city and destroyed it, creating the Ruins Greatsword. The first mention of Glintstone Sorcery in the timeline is with the Astrologers, who were living on the Mountaintops when the Giants ruled them, which is after the Ice Dragons were deposed/killed off. The Ice Dragons are the distant descendants of Bayle, who is the progenitor of the Drake (wyvern-style dragons) bloodline, and thus would only rise to prominence after Placidusax is wounded and retreats to the Storm Beyond Time, as the Dragonlord received his wounds during the battle with Bayle. We also know that the Elden Ring and the Elden Beast are not the same, because we kill the Elden Beast and the Elden Ring still retains all of its power. So the timeline that I've constructed seems to go like this: Ancient Dragons rule, with a Storm/Time God (maybe) -> Bayle betrays the Ancient Dragons -> The Drakes spread throughout the world, making Ice Dragons -> The Fire Giants take over the Mountaintops -> Metyr arrives in the Lands Between and spawns the Fingers -> Glintstone Sorcery is invented among the Astrologers
@@foxywoxy1915The current description isn't as explicit that's true, the older one actively mentioned the greater will, and no, it is very obviously talking about the ancient dragons time and not Marika's
I heard a theory that Placidusax’s god was GW because his resting pose resembles the pose the two fingers take to communicate with greater will. Now after DLC I wonder if his god was Metyr because that’s likely who the two fingers communicate directly with as well. It would line up as metyr was the first envoy of GW, and later was wounded/abandoned, where we fight her might be where she fled to. It would might also explain why the Cinquedea says “The design celebrates a beast's five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence once granted upon their kind.” Referring to the mother of finger granting intelligence and association with Fingercreepers.
Theres another connection to the Fell god in the dlc: the Lamenter, for some reason. When you transform, the fell god's face appears on your back, and there are tufts of red hair between your horns. The Lamenter is the closest thing to an Omen in the dlc, and in retrospect its weird how many times the word Fell is used with Omens in the base game. Margit the Fell, the Fell omen twins guarding the divine tower, the mending rune of the Fell curse. They might be different words in Japanese though, idk
The omen being possibly linked to the fell god is interesting. There's also the furnace visage, which is said to depict the fell god's face, and is a sun lined with horns. Since the crucible, the fell god, and the hornsent/omen are all linked by horns, is the crucible a product of the fell god? The god was likened to a furnace, and the word "crucible" bring to mind fire, and forging, aspects of the fire giant's culture. There's also the red tint of the primordial crucible mention in the crucible knight's set, which again link the crucible to the fell god
@@astrid9920 the other interesting thing about the Lamenter is that during the transformation, you actually burn in Blackflame. Which at the very least cements a connection between the Blackflame, the Fell God, and the Hornsent.
@@PeteQuaint Considering all the subtle reference to the sun with the Giants and the Fell God (Flame of the Fell God incant looks like a sun too) as well as the Dung Eater and Furnace Golems, and the Omen being associated with large physicality, the crucible described as a melting pot, the act of forging described as an art originating with the giants, the many connections between lions, horns and the sun in their own right, and some other (admittedly more tenuous) connections, I'm starting to think that the Fell God is somehow the God of the Sun. It would also give a nice bit of connection to the Astrologers and the Giants back on the Mountaintop, giving them a neat little sun & moon dichotomy. Idk, I'm just theorising but I feel like there's something there
@@DJYungHoxhaThe swirls around the fell god are the planets around the sun. I think the thing is that the sun (i.e. the fell god) is somehow deeply connected or related to the Crucible (evolution/life), but most people don't actually like the fell god. Since the sun is ultimately the source of the fuel that life uses to sustain itself, it is no surprise that Marika can't eliminate the Fell god, and no one else, including the hornsent, are able to either.
This might be the funniest lore implication from the DLC - that GW honestly dones't give a fuck. It didn't even tell Marika to do all that fucked shit, it was all her.
tbf, it’s detailed as the Greater Will abandoning the world AFTER the Shattering. Of course, with the new context, we know that’s propaganda and/or simply fake
I think since it’s mentioned so much in game people assume that it’s some mastermind behind everything when it’s really just the people it left behind fucking everything up
@@jik9693 the fingers were talking to metyr the entire time since the greater will was communicating to metyr but abandoned which may mean that metyr was the greater will to the lands between since we do not know how long metyr was abandoned.
Something to note about the base serpent that i think Zullie the Witch mentioned first; it always begins the second phase by slamming down and consuming an orb of fire that seems very reminiscent of Rykard's own vision of a serpent swallowing the world. Whether that actually means anything, i dont know.
@@HeronHero while Elden ring is a big world, I can certainly imagine the different divine serpent traditions stemming from a single serpent outer god. A god of destruction and rebirth as is seen in both the aspects of shedding skin/ burning in Mesmer, as well as devouring but also becoming a new united being in Rykard. Maybe this serpent god had great sway over Mesmer from the start, like the rot god with Malenia, but then later Rykard simply found it and began worshipping it like Mogh and the formless mother
I believe it was stated somewhere that the serpent tried to consume mesmers flame. So unleashing it might mean that it will do that the first chance it has
I mean, "base" serpent might be just that, the actual original serpent, or what was left of it; not like Marika would be against using those things, and it would explain how Rykard got hands on some snakes bits that then grew to be what it is now.
@@todd3143You have it backwards. It's not "The orb move came into existance because of something Messmer did". It's "The orb existed before Messmer, and he inherited it." It's like Malenia's blooming. It's something inherent to the outer god possessing them that they are able to manifest as their signature move. Specifically, Messmer's Orb is symbolic of Apep (and probably other world eating serpents as well), the Egyptian snake god of chaos (the void/the abyss) who tries to eat Ra (the sun) and/or the world.
I don't think it makes sense that Midra was intentionally supportive of the frenzied flame, I think he came in contact with it then the Inquisiton sealed it in him with the golden barb, much like how we seal away rot within Millicent with the golden needle, I think he was merely a prison for the frenzied flame, one that's been leaking for a very long time. He even says "the depths of your foolishness" and then reluctantly pulls out the barb in exhaustion, as if he's hesitant and warning us off.
Yeah, he was very against the flame. He urges anyone who comes close to him to avoid him. Not because he’s trying to threaten you with the Flame, but because he’s trying to save you, him, and the entire world, for what he’s about to unintentionally unleash if you disturb his “calmness”. Or, at least, as “calm” as one can be under such strenuous situations. His situation, I akin it to the practices of Chinese monks being able to withstand immense pain by just being *calm* . Midra is going through something similar. He’s told to “endure”, and to do that, he must try to quell his extreme suffering by way of meditation and/or NO human contact that may affect his human urges. This is even immensely evident in how he can’t control his human urges when you enter his room. He’s like a crack addict who’s been forced to remain a crack addict for DECADES. So when he sees another human, his human urges takes over and throws himself at you, forcing him to “share” his frenzied flame with you. Once you attack him enough, of course, he will feel the most human feeling of all: the feeling of not wanting to experience pain anymore. Really tragic character, and a fantastic way to give more depth to the Frenzied Flame concept. He’s forcing himself to not release the Flame by being as inhumane as possible. Only when he begins to be “human”, and feels emotions, is ironically when he releases the Flame. Probably my fav character in the game, and how his story explains that pain and suffering leads to the most human emotions. And being human, I’m the face of suffering, is what summons the Frenzied Flames of Chaos. Fantastic stuff. The DLC in general reinforces the themes of how pain and suffering leads to power of a Greater force. Marika’s Pain attracting the Fingers; Romina’s suffering leads to her discovering the Rot; Messmer’s suffering ultimately leads to this twisted and obscure Snake deity at his behest; the Hornsent’s ritualistic and ascetic practice of bringing oneself pain to reacher a higher divinity, etc. TL;DR - sorry for the yap. Just wanted to gush about Midra and Chaos while I was on a tangent. But yes, you are absolutely correct
It makes sense, after all we know the Frenzied God made contact with the travelling merchants after they were entombed and abandoned by the golden order. It makes sense that it would try the same thing with Midra, the merchants would come to embrace the flame in there torment gut Midra resists it right up till the moment that he is about to die at the players hands.
The thing is that in one of the hidden rooms of Midra's Manor you will find tons of fingers and stuff from one of the finger ruins. So at least someone in the manor was poking around the 3 fingers
In the ashes of Ornis It Is said that he "tamed a divine Bird" and that he's the ancestor of the hornsent warriors. Since there are a lot of connections between death rites and the hornsent culture, maybe this Bird Is the twin kite
The divine bird warrior armor set refers to golden birds that rarely associated with people, but that some rare individuals could “invoke their divinity”, which to me sounds like similar language to the divine elements of other outer gods
I’ve always thought Messmer’s flames were a curse from the fell god. It’s always been stated that Radagon had some connection to the giants and the fell god that caused them to have red hair. I believe the fell gods power manifested through Radagon’s bloodline in Melina and Messmer since Messmer can wield fire Melina can channel the flame of the fell god. Also supporting this is that Messmer has always hated his fire making it more of a curse rather than a blessing.
@@buffoonustroglodytus4688 it parallels really well to morgott and contrasts very well to malenia imo. the fact that messmer hates his fire but uses it so much is a lot like how morgott hates his omen nature but utilises his omen features like his tail and the sword made of his blood. meanwhile malenia outright rejects using her scarlet rot in fights up until the moments where she's desperate for a win, like against radahn and the tarnished
Honestly. Like what is it and how different is it from the one that Rykard fed himself to? Ik they are different beings but maybe, both being serpents, have some kind of connection?
I love the goofy vintage sounding alien motif that plays when you enter the mother of fingers boss arena. It feels like the most out there thing in elden ring.
Seeing as unalloyed gold is supposed to suppress the presence of outer gods, I think it's a missed opportunity that it isn't being discussed as to whether in the Age of Compassion that Miquella would be considered the one true god, and thus the belief in other outer gods would be repressed
I think the age of compassion might still be the greater will moving through Miquella, using his powers of compulsion to force ultimate order on the lands between
I know you meant this as a silly comment, but there do indeed exist "inner gods", that being mortals ascended to God status, such as Marika (and now Miquella), while not even close to the Outer Gods they are definitely above anyone else in the Lands Between
@@Lexsed I wasn’t actually. I’m suggesting that song of these beings that one people think are outer gods knight actually be inner gods like Marika and ever so briefly Miquella.
@@gundarium4237 I think there may be others too that we just don’t know about or haven’t realised! The death birds, for example, come from a time that we know very little about but I don’t think the twin birds are necessarily outer gods. But who knows. It’s fun speculating. That’s the key to the comment I left 😊
6:20 Glad you mentioned this - I think the "heat death of the universe" is exactly what inspired the "chaos flame", which is a very artistic interpretation of the phrase but nevertheless lines up with it perfectly.
I think heat death is specifically the absence of heat transfer. Space is always expanding faster and faster, the idea is the area between intractable objects becomes so massive that it becomes impossible to transfer energy, it can't do anything. Burning everything is in essence, adding energy, nothing in particular has been lost, only changed.
@@MrDexSatheat death is about maximum entropy. Metaphorically and physically it corresponds to the cold after all fire burns out. In our reality our “magic” fires that keep everything going are stars. Burning hot now but ever increasing entropy until all is uniform chaos without order. Again, that’s just real life and is the same process that leads to cancer and death as you as a human being burn fuel each day to hold your form against the entropy until one day you fall apart and become dirt or ash.
@@darrylkoski529 that is an entirely different theory that doesn't even make sense. the heat death of the universe is a theory because all forms of energy tend to change in part to heat, and that all reactions tend toward increasing entropy to release heat, which means greater disorder which means less structures like planets. changing things to have no differences is a loss of individuality and clarity, obviously the total sum of materials remains the same.
You forgot to mention a diary page that hints at the parry opening up the lanterns for an attack. It says "I touched him, but only once. When he thrust his staff in my face, I brushed it aside. It was then that I touched him. The aging untouchable." Perhaps, the fact that you show confidence in the face of it's weakness, humiliates the monster and opens it up for attacks.
There is SO much evidence in the game supporting the existence of a snake outer god. First, look up the legend of Eglé (pronounced Eiglay) in Lithuanian folklore. It is a story that I'll loosely describe as being about a druid woman (tree shaman) who weds a snake and is forced to have children with it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egl%C4%97_the_Queen_of_Serpents Also, to get out in front of the comparisons between Rykard's serpent and the serpent god Eiglay, let's consider the Japanese text of the game, and confirm there is a serpent deity at the same time. The Kanji used to describe the serpent deity Eiglay is written as 蛇神, which denotes it as an "ancient god," and parallels the kanji used in various places to describe the Fell God and the God of Rot. Contrasting with that, Rykard’s Great Serpent is 大蛇. It is NEVER referred to as a god (神) in any item description or anywhere else in the text of the game. Ergo, there is 100% a serpent god, and its name is Eiglay! As for the innumerable connections between the Fell God and the Serpent God... I'll let you guys go down that rabbit hole. I've already been there. Let's just ask ourselves... why is the Abyssal Serpent's skin covered in red hair and eyes? Why is the Giant's Forge surrounded by serpents on all sides? Why is the skill of the Serpent Flail- used by Messmer's soldiers- called "Flare O' Serpent," drawing parallel to the Fell flame skills/incantations Surge, O Flame, Whirl O Flame, etc. And why does the duelist armor, covered in snakes, bear the eye of the Fell God on its greaves? I will stop short of drawing parallels to the Norse myth of Ragnarok, where the Red Wolf Fenrir (Radagon's red wolf? Fire giant?) and Jormungander are responsible for the destruction of Yygdrasil, the world tree. But the parallels are there. Finally.. we just happen to use the Fell God's flame to burn the Erdtree, just as we use Messmer's flame to burn the Scadutree's thorns away. There's more to connect the Serpent God and the Fell God, but I'll stop there. Thanks for reading!
If anything it proves the serpents worship is attracted to divine/fell gods' flames.... which I do think has been true since release. Serpents in ER seems attracted to fire, to be very powerful which is possibly the main reason they're considered heretical/blasphemous. Jormungandr is accounted for in the base game and Miyazaki isn't known to pluck one creature from a specific lore and mash it with other things. He usually buys things wholesale and try to fit it with basically Berserk the manga and a mythology. Jormungandr wasn't considered a God either. Another thing that's unprecedented is to chain two hidden gods together like you're doing here. The Fell God and the Serpent God being so intertwined with no actual text has never been Froms style (I.e. Formless Oedon or Velka). I'd also like to point out that Marika in the Japanese translation is a "Shrine Maiden" and not a Shaman. We don't know enough about the Shamans to know why they were translated that way and not going with the classics translation. My theory is that Miquella doesn't have a single origin, she is the culmination of jar experiments and in that there were also Giants combined, her sanctified status made her a blessing for all in the crucible era and presented to the Giants where she was taken care of/made a consort to the fell God. She got in contact with the fingers and became and Empyrean, betrayed the Giants, got cursed by grandam and began her holy crusade against the crucible for a new era of golden order. Why people are obsessed with her f*cking a snake is beyond me because there's no proof of that ever happening.
Of further note is that the Temple of Eiglay in Volcano Manor literally has statues on the walls that can be best described as winged serpents. Also, Messmer's bossfight actually has two different serpents - one is more snub-nosed with ragged red hair, red eyes half-peering from its pale grey flesh, with its right eye a gaping wound and its left closed shut - just as Messmer. The other is red and black in color, with fully open red eyes in its body, longer and more tapered jaws, and haphazard eyes across its face; it is also summoned directly by his hand reaching into a dark void, while the other seems to be him transforming/'melting' into it. Since the first serpent seems to be an embodiment of Messmer, and is white just like his winged serpents turn white during his 2nd phase, I think that is the 'Base Serpent' within Messmer, while the darker serpent summoned from a void is the true 'Abyssal Serpent,' or a manifestation of it.
@@kaingates the Japanese ID for Shaman Village is 巫子の村 - literally, 'Shrine Maiden Village.' Shaman is also translated as Shrine Maiden in the Japanese description of the Tooth Whip. They seem to be one and the same.
@@sayanchandaroy7420whoa! I didn't know about the two serpents manifesting in his boss fight- I thought it was just the one. Super interesting, will definitely look into that more!
There's an interesting item somewhere that's a Spiritgrave stone that's been burned by the frenzied flame - it describes how the frenzied flame has the power to burn away spirits despite their being eternal, which is the reason the Hornsent forbid it. I thought this was interesting cause the Hornsent seem to have a death rite spirituality based on a different kind of cremation with ghostflame. Haven't seen this discussed much.
The importance of the Cerulean Coast and Hidden Grave of Charo is to reference the unique interconnection between Death and Sleep. In greek mythology, Thanatos and Hypnos were brothers. My assumption is that the fact that it resembles the color of the shield represents the dual naturenof death. If we take both blue and red we get purple, in which case purple is a consistent color themed around portals and travel in this game. The fact that you navigate by getting into coffins in some parts of the game helps correlate this idea with death being a journey, not an end. In my honest opinion, rhis revelation openly puts a spotlight to the fact that Marika was hoping to raise Miquella (as St Trina) to be yet another loophole to the principle of Death by replacing Death with Eternal Sleep. Similar in nature yet just different enough to be "legal" in the overall rules of the universe without "death" as a rule.
I think midra was studying the flame when he accidentally inherited it and was impaled to hold back the flame from taking over and making him a lord, which is possibly why he was too weak when he eventually did become a lord and why he apologizes to nanaya when he transforms
I have headcanon that makes me believe that the Formless Mother is actually the fleshy "jar" remains of Marika. That once she ascended to godhood; her flesh followed suit. This is why it desires wounds, the intense torture of the Hornsent which most certainly twisted the collective mind of the jar innard shamans. I came to this idea because there is a prominent jar innard enemy in shadow keep that creates a large pool of bleed-inducing magic effects.
This is a good idea. It would also connect the blood flies of the Formless Mother and the fly ailment together, as well as the use of Fly Mold in making heavy pots. Perhaps the flies helped decompose flesh within the Jars for better amalgamation. There is even a practice of using flies on certain types of cheese to break down the cheese and ferment it more. Fermentation and Rot are crucial for alchemical processes (in fiction, at least, since Alchemy is a pseudoscience). Marika may just be a shaman fermented to perfection. Her flesh may be the Formless Mother, or the remaining slop after the fermentation process which is either discarded or used for fermentation starter in other jars.
@@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962 I recommend looking up Ziostorm’s video on how Elden Ring is connected to mushrooms. You’ve touched upon some fascinating things that he mentions as well.
@@MorningGloryDancer I have seen Ziostorm's videos and I think there is merit in what he says. It has been speculated that the Weirwood trees in ASOIF are also mushrooms. I would not be surprised. Mushrooms can grow in space, too, which may be significant to ER's lore.
@@MorningGloryDancer well, I meant to say fungi generally, but evidently mushrooms can thrive in space and fungal spores might be the key to life, or so some scientists believe. The space stations have fungi growing on them, and not just indoors. It is crazy.
I have reason to believe Messmer's and Miquella's curses are the work of outer gods. Malenia's scarlet rot is from the sealed God, Melina's vision of fire is from the Fell God. It could be that Miquella's youthfulness (which he seems to have gotten rid of in the boss fight) and the Abyssal serpent are more instances of this happening. Edit: The abyssal serpent is possibly related to the God-Devouring serpent and Eiglay, who likely have an outer god related them based on the magma sorcery descriptions. Additionally, miquella's curse is sort of an antithesis to the scarlet rot, as he never decays or withers like his sister.
I think all Empyreans can be mediums for the gods and entities, Malena rot god, Ranni Moon, Marika Great will. Remembering that George R.R. Martin wrote the Lore of Elden Ring also wrote GOT and that the game of thrones is a central theme in all his works, so most likely the gods are playing and the pieces on the board are the Empyreans The issue of the curse is a duality, as demonstrated with Mohg or Morgott, it is a matter of point of view, as in the great order any influence from another god is considered proven, and will normally be seen as a curse. You can also see this with Malena and Milicent and their sisters, the sisters and Gowry treat it as a gift. Also Malena is reborn as a goddess in the second form of her fight precisely for this curse/gift. The curse in these cases is the influence of a god other than The Great Will. the Tarnished are the opposite, they are the people who have lost grace (what the order calls grace is actually the influence exerted by the Great Will) Ranni kills her own body, people from Nokron and Ijji use the mirror helmet but none of the Tarnished use anything and none are directly controlled by gods , only influenced.
Something to look into is that i think metyr is apolozing. When you get her weapon the attack calls it kowtow and isnt that the japanese action for deeply apoligizing. A thought i had that either shes apologizing to us for the mess her children have caused or shes apologizing to its parent aka the greater will. If shes apologizing to the greater will then it opens up the possibility that metyr might have done something that caused the greater will to abandon the lands between
Im really sad about the lack of death god lore, especially given that the land of shadow is a land of death. It would have made perfect sense if the scadutree was the helphen instead
I’m not sure why I didn’t pick up on this before, but if the land of shadow is the land of death, then wouldn’t it make sense for the Gloam-Eyed Queen to have inhabited it previously? We know that the Golden Order was created at the moment when Maliketh defeated her and the Rune of Death was removed from the Elden Ring. Could this mean that maybe she was ruling in Leyndell before the lands were separated and Marika achieved godhood with the aspect of gold and then everything went down after that? There is a lot of speculation around why the trailer shows Marika at the divine gate with a bold purple sky, the same purple as the Gloam-Eyed Queen…
@MorningGloryDancer the LOS is a land of death because of the suppressing tower. However, while there is reason to believe Marika built it given her history of sealing and removing death, it's architecture may suggest its older. We simply don't know. It would make sense for the gloam Eyed Queen to rule over the lands between and LOS (since they were only disconnected after Marika's ascension), we only ever hear about her being an empyrean, not a god. But the gloamed sky suggests otherwise as you stated. Lots of questions still. It's unfortunate we got zero new death lore other than the suppressing tower, given that the LOS is literally where all death is concentrated too.
@@jarroddt Great points. Perhaps that is why she has the title Gloam-Eyed Queen, rather than something more divine like Queen Marika the Eternal. Is it possible that the Elden Ring maybe didn't have a vessel for some time while the Empyreans were identified? Both the Gloam-Eyed Queen and Marika may have been up for bids by the Two Fingers, and Marika won, perhaps through the seduction... Knowing that Placidusax's god ran off, the Greater Will didn't exactly get a two-weeks notice to backfill the job, haha! Do you have thoughts on that?
@MorningGloryDancer presuming that the definition of the title of God (vessel of the ring) has been constant throughout the land betweens history, then yes, the elden ring would have been vessel-less for a time until a new God arose. Unless Placidusax's God didn't abandon the ring, in which it would have had to have been taken from them, which is an interesting thought given the story trailer. We also don't know though if there were other gods between placidusax's and Marika however, so there may have been a hornsent god before Marika. Given that the godskins do wear the skin of gods, I think it's safe to assume that either 1) that the Gloam Eyed Queen and Marika worked together, killed the hornsent god/placidusax gos, Marika betrayed GEQ to ascend to godhood and that started the godskin apostasy, or 2) that the godskins have existed for eons and the GEQ was an anti-goddess of sorts, killing gods throughout history to pave the way for the next age, and that she was simply either eventually a became candidate for godhood, or empyreans are candidates for gods and this antigod role. That's just speculation though and is pretty baseless tbh. We simply don't know enough about the cosmology and history of the lands between to say for certain. But yeah lots of people thought that when the trailer first came out. Not sure if that's still the general consensus but I'd assume it is.
@@jarroddt IT'S SKIN! IT'S SKIN STITCHED TOGETHER!!! I was writing a lovely response to you, thanking you for indulging me in this speculation, and then I had the thought of exploring your first proposition. I went back to watch the teaser, and the item that Marika pulls the golden strands out of is godskin with stitches!!!! Please go watch and tell me if you agree. Did we just discover something?
Honestly, we need a massive compendium with all the Elden Ring lore, breaking all of it down. From who Placi was an Elden Lord for, to the Gloam Eyes Queen, EVERYTHING. I need it all
Ive read a theory that the abyssal serpent was originally gloam eyed queen's consort, that their kids are the godskins and the god devouring serpent, and that upon their defeat the abyssal serpent unintentionally or no came to dwell or was sealed within marika's son messmer, while the geq was within melina(not being her)
I think the detail of how the union of radagon and marika (who are kind of basically the same person) gave birth to children with defects (albeit on a godly level) is an interesting parallel to those small family trees of medieval times
Man, Ramina is the most confusing new character for me. Not to get too into the weeds bu twhy is she protecting the sealing tree? Is she working with Messmer or is she protecting the tree form Messmer? It makes no sense!
She might just be protecting the tree in general. I'm assuming the thorns were put up to prevent anybody form accessing the gate of divinity after what Marika did with her godhood, and so she's standing guard to ensure nobody can touch the tree
In the story trailer, you can see that Enir Ilum was already shrouded while Messmer was assaulting Belurat. And Romina is definitely against Messmer. The shrouding must have been a defensive measure taken by the hornsent
@@aminubk Yeah, you can see a woman burning in one of the trailers portraying Messmer's crusade. It's not outright shown because she's not in the same form as during the boss fight (no scorpion/centipedes attached to her), but it's a woman holding a halberd that looks exactly like the one Romina is using, so I'm just assuming it's likely her
My theory about metyr as well as Placidussax is that the greater will didn’t cut itself off and abandon them, but a rogue element in the world cut them both off from it. Especially in metyrs case that huge gash and the fact that she only creates finger creepers and no new 2 fingers might suggest such. But I would say that, that might be unlikely because of the Elden Beast. Btw I want to say that there is a huge possibility of the dragons outer god is in some way or form just the greater will or a different perception of that specific god one mostly related to Time. But also other aspects shared with the other outer gods Similar to real world mythology and religion where one god has slight differences across different cultures and religions. Allah and the Christian God or יהוה/YHWH. Or gods like Jupiter and Saturn. The dragon outer god and the symbolism that surrounds them and all of Farum Azula, in general I would say is just very weird and confusing. You have Placidussax being Elden lord and ALSO for some reason abandoned by an outer god, awaiting signs like Metyr. Also not forgetting the old Elden ring depiction in Farum Azula which shows a even more complex design of the elden ring. Then you have the themes of death everywhere. Or the theme of decay (kinda like Rot.) and time. You could either interpret this as dragons having been polytheistic or straight up monotheistic, believing that there are no outer gods just one great God with many different faces.
with placidissax i feel he was lord of a completely different time, i dont think the greater will fully got its hold on the lands between until marika ascended to godhood. on metyr and her fingers and a bit off topic, but it deems to reason that she also birthed the 3 fingers right? but we got nothing on that? i have a thought, complete speculation but what if she was abandoned at a time of birthing them, the fingers that answer to another outer god? complete speculation though
I think what's implied by Hyetta's monologue is a similar creation myth to Dark Souls, as well as Daoism. Everything was once undifferentiated and timeless, then things began to split into yin and yang, light and dark, etc. I don't think the greater will is more powerful than the other gods, I think it's just the one with the most sway in the Lands Between. It was the first to start sending its envoys.
It's interesting that in the Elden Ring lore, space or celestial bodies appear to be conscious in some way as they can and have communicated with the people of the lands between. Probably not a great thought but I do definitely see another dlc in the future. Love the video
I should mention that the Greater Will isnt refered to as an Outer God in the Japenese. Outer God meaning out of order maybe. Im not Japanese Ive just seen other people saying as such. But it would explain why the Greater Will abandoning the lands between leaving it unprotected and still the outer gods cant fully influence our domain.
@@LordBackuro The Greater Will is just God, with a capital g, the Outer Gods are gods with a lowercase g, they are embodiments of aspects of reality, rot, darkness, death, blood, etc.
I mean it's just another part of the one absolute and it's counterpart is the flame of frenzy, which is confirmed an outer god due to miquella's needle. If the flame of frenzy is an outer god, it's reasonable to assume it's counterpart is one too.
My Favourite fan theory I heard about the outer gods that are meddling in the lands between is that they represent primordial forces that Marika/Radagon excluded from their imposed Order on the world represented by the current elden ring. You have Darkness or Night (The moon), Death (deathbird creator), Blood (Formless mother), Oblivion (Frenzied Flame), and Decay (rot goddess). Each of these outer gods meddling in the lands between while the greater will is control might be consequence of Marika not including these aspects of existence in the elden ring. Those are the parts of existence that Goldmask realise weren't included in the elden ring and fixes the elden ring in the perfect order ending.
Darkness or Night things is more relate to GW than the moon. We have life that was within glintstones of cosmos (from what Sellen told us), and GW responded for creating life. Elden Ring, which was sent here by GW as well, can command the stars, and it's not the moon that dominate the night sky since one that the moon and stars will take seperate way. GW is descriped as the abyss, void, and darkness in Ymir's headgear. Interestingly, the JP word Darkness that uses for describe GW is also the same one as a selia's sorcery "Eternal Darkness" and we know that it is "the despair that brought about its ruin made manifest."
On the subject of the Fell God and the furnaces, I believe Smoughtown made a connection between the mask with curlled horns and the iris' design of the Fell God's eye
I think the base serpent is an outer god and the serpent that rykard fused with could be it's lord or something. Also the serpent people of volcano manor and the serpent god thing from the curved sword description might support it.
I had some thoughts while you were talking. It felt like any capital G Gods had a complete circle of death and rebirth ie taking life from one and giving it to another. Marika - tree burial and regrowing from the erdtree Blood Mother - transfusions Snake - maybe not as noticable but in our world we have the idea of Oroboros Scarlet Rot - decay. pretty straight forward. Death - those who love in death,zombies, etc The Greater Will and the Frenzied Flame seem to be a step above the others. Where the good of rot and Marika and the others seem to govern individual life, they seem to try to govern life on a macro scale.
There’s also the old gods mentioned in the description of the Ancient Meteoric Ore Greatsword: “One of the treasures of the ruined forges. Greatsword of ancient meteoric ore, ending in a sharp point. Fashioned from an excavated shard of an arrowhead that once was a part of the old gods' arsenal. A capable piercing weapon that excels at thrusting attacks.”
My theory on is that the old gods might be the giants in caelid, the mountaintops and the eternal cities, who in my opinion were the creators of the black stone ruins, the giant's forge, the lands of shadows forge, and the golems. also the pattern on the blade is similar to the black knives' pattern, so maybe the knifeprint was a form of rudimental smithscript.
10:25 Midra only became Lord as a reaction to our "foolishness!!" and was subsequently killed by us before going on his wanton rampage. Up until now, he's struggled against the flame at Nanaya's behest and fought against succombing to madness, succombing to becoming the Lord. When we enter, his hands are on the sword struggling to keep up his will to not descend into madness and rip his own head off.... not until, of course, our "foolishness" pushes him over, that the world is no longer worth struggling to protect. We push him beyond the brink and he decided he had "endured long enough" and rips out the great sword and accepts and embraces the nothingingness of chaos.
I like the idea that the sun visage of the dung eaters chestplate and of the furnaxe golems might be conected. Cause the one from the furnace golems seems to be conected to the Hornsent and the Omens seem to be like a remnant of Hornsent past for the golden order. Of course the Hornsent fear said visage but it isnt like the dungeater is the most sane person or someone who wouldnt say no to something grotesct that people fear
Thanks for sticking with the game lore and not comparing this to real life. So many of these lore channels can't seem to understand that these are just pixels on a screen at the end of the day.
Outer Gods are connected to different types of fire: the fell flame, the ghost flame, blood flame, frenzy flame (now that I think of it, it’s weird that Rot is the only one w/out fire). The Base Serpent having fire of its own supports it being an outer god.
There seem to be some outer gods whose power and subjects fear fire, and other outer gods that wield it. Perhaps this is another form of Duality that is present throughout the story of Elden Ring.
@@ramoraid im pretty sure formless mother stuff isnt blood flame jus blood the flame part comes from omens igniting their blood which is why morgott can do it aswell
I theorize the Base Serpent Outer God is actually the snake that ate Rykard. Both of their spells deal with fire, with the magma sorceries all requiring faith, suggesting that they likely have a divine source. Additionally, an Outer God obsessed with devouring gods would be the perfect fit for a crusade, which would suggest why Marika gave him the mission of destroying the Hornsent.
Every time anyone mentions the One Great and all of the lore we get through Hyetta and Shabriri, I wish for the ability to reach through the screen so I can ask them "but why do you trust them to be telling you the truth?" The Frenzied Flame questline implies they're manipulating you from the moment Hyetta appears wearing the face of Irina, who most new players will recognize as the NPC who suffered a tragic death. Shabriri entices you with the chance to save Melina. Vyke is proof this isn't the first time they've used this spiel to manipulate a promising Tarnished into becoming a Lord of Frenzied Flame. We only hear of the One Great from their lips. For all we know, they're making it all up so we think the Frenzied Flame ending is the natural progression of things like Dark Souls' Age of Dark. And in my eyes, the new lore from the DLC makes the One Great look even less credible. We should take every word from the mouths of Frenzied Flame agents with a truckload of salt.
You mean the guy laughing like a madman as he screams about chaos taking the world is untrustworthy? Next you'll tell me that people don't just randomly offer candy out of the back of their van with good intentions.
It's difficult because all other viewpoints that disagree with the Golden Order were actively suppressed and destroyed. If there was other evidence, anything that could vaguely ligitimise the Frenzied Flame or even just portray it in a less negative light, would be very difficult to find at best. In the end, I'm not so sure it matters. To me, the Frenzied Flame is the other half of the Greater Will: destruction is a necessary counterpart to life (otherwise you get cancer). The whole game is about opposites, balance, cycles, and what happens when they're disrupted. In a certain perspective, the rotting cancerous mutated life of the Lands Between has been missing the 'death' part of the cycle for too long.
the idea of frenzied madness is that its like a manifestation of forbidden knowledge, so its possible that what they say could have truth to it, but it being deciphered through a medium that can't tell the whole picture, or what they they sounds like lunacy but could be truths that are just so out there that the rational mind would think its illogical.
@@shadixyt I can't recall anything linking the nature of the Frenzied Flame to forbidden knowledge. *Knowing about the Frenzied Flame* is forbidden, as in the Golden Order suppresses knowledge of it, but that has nothing to do with the nature of the Flame beyond how dangerous and heretical it is. It's nature has far more to do with madness, despair, and burning everything away than any form of manifestation of forbidden knowledge.
Why should we trust hyetta? because they are haters, and they wouldn't lie to make GW looks good like "the reason why we don't have to stray freezing outside is because GW made this house for us to live. yeah fuk that guy. we never want a warm place. we want to be freeze to death outside. let's burn down this house" Aside from what she said, there're other NPCs and narators that imply that GW create life and the universe, so i don't see a reason why the game would tells us a fake infomation which we have no way to prove it false.
It was kind of a stupid callout, honestly. Unless I'm missing context, that guy was specifically talking about bloodborne. Not all fromsoft games. So there is either missing context or madluigi is just butt hurt he was told he was wrong and just put this in to try and get a gotcha. But honestly, it kind of failed if that's the case.
Also, I don't think that its fair to say that Miquella's eternal youth isn't a curse from an outer god because theres no mention of a "God of Eternal Youth". But the way I see it, is this curse seems to be a way of limiting his full potential. The haligtree never grew to fruition, his never got to save Malenia, he never got to fulfill his oath with Radahn (cause we kinda crashed their wedding). Miquella also seemed rather keen on using the erdtree to cast aside his empyrean flesh like Ranni did during the night of the black knives and to gain access to the Realm of Shadows. Marika really wanted these lands to be hidden away, given that it shows her origins and things she is shameful of, and she most likely fears the two fingers using Miquella to replace her, I see enough of a motive for her to curse her own child, limiting what he could accomplish. If the events of the black night didnt occur leading to the shattering and Marika ending up as her broken self, there is a chance that Miquella would never surpass her. Another potential culprit could be the two fingers themselves, since they are heavily connected to the "Empyrean Body" the demigods seem to have (It's kind of like a flesh prison, hence why Miquella and Ranni desired to remove it). Miquella turned away from the two fingers after he realized that they could not save Malenia from the rot, so he began research into ways to repell the outer gods with unalloyed gold. The fact that he doubted they power would put him on their list. Since Marika hid away the realm of shadows, which was beneficial for the two fingers since it also hid the fact that they in fact are not speaking to the greater will and are actually just selfish liars, the fact that Miquella was prying into the past might have led them to curse his body to prevent him from uncovering anything. Those are my two culprits, and while they still aren't outer gods themselves, they have been influenced at one point by the greater will even if it is absent. Even if its no longer in the picture, who's to say that the fingers, who are going about their own agenda, aren't playing their roles in the greater will's story. Also wouldn't it be funny if the greater will, was actually the devs/creators of this story? And those other erdtree's in the elden beast boss fight are actually other player's worlds? Each erdtree is a direct copy, and each realm is as well. And since the game was published, the devs are technically absent (aside from dlc releases and patches).
Random thought, the golden order who recieved knowledge from the fingers operate on two fundamentals 1causality 2 regression The greater will caused the causality- the fracture And the flame of frenzy desires to unify everything (regression) doesnt really tell us anything new i just thought it was cool
I really liked that theory too before the dlc but proposed it on discords and they pointed out two major holes: 1) frenzied flame and Greater Will existed during the crucible eras. The laws are built under the world logic of golden order. The laws are fundamental to how the lands between function under the golden order and were different laws during other eras. 2) causality is the explanation of everything being interlinked meaning that if the demigods don't work together they'd put themselves in a gridlock (which was fine until Ranni made the causality destroy Miquellas prophecy of may the best demigod become lords and gods of the world)
LastProtagenist translated the outer god into Japanese and concluded that the Kanji used pointed to Kami("gods") outside the pantheon. It understandable Gods of Death, Blood, Rot, Frenzy, and Fell would be not be accepted in the Golden Order (though starting to think Frenzy and Fell may be the same being, by the Furnace Visage, and I was told Midra was the one that introduced the Forge Ruins, though have not found that connecting evidence yet).
I am pretty sure that Midra was not a lord until he pulled the sword out of his own body and fully embraced his madness. When we kill him, he WAS a lord, had we not killed him then and there, Midra would likely have destroyed the Shadow Lands in his madness.
Just thinking: I'd be cautious about giving the Greater Will too much credit. Considering it is venerated in the religious order and dogma of the Lands Between, despite Queen Marika being "the one true god" per Golden Order teaching, an inflation in the stature of the Greater Will in the cosmic order is bound to occur. There are many Outer Gods. The Greater Will is surely a powerful one, but as all the different deities are meddling and messing around for power, perhaps the Greater Will just had the most successful methodology (it understands how to take land, whereas the alien minds of many other deities does not)? In both, introducing Matyr and the Elden Ring into the Lands Between in order to convert them to be a part of it's domain to establish its dominance. Getting the biggest piece of the pie there would be enough, thus the Greater Will would turn to other matters. It is the hubris of a mortal to think the cosmic order gods would only have on their mind the well-being of mortals and how mortal affairs go, after all. Do you stop to think of all the ants living in any land you'd claim, and feel like checking up on them unless they give you reason to? What if you had control of the ants and directed them that-a-way? In much the same way, the Greater Will getting the biggest piece of the pie in the Lands Between likely was enough. The quality of the life of the beings it brought under its sway with that land is of no real significance, as seen by how despite what ending we choose the Guidance of Grace flows. Mortals concocting beliefs of no consequence or truth. Thus, the Lands Between would exactly that. The Lands between the Greater Will's lands. To us, a world. To a god? Just a pebble in their holdings. I'd also note that, as shown by the Greater Will's conquest, it seems to require an investment of strength or power from the Outer Gods to claim lands. The GW invested two of it's children plus the Elden Ring. For the other gods, it might not be worth the investment to overturn that, and thus they maintain minimal presences. As the gods are in direct contest and conflict, it makes sense that too great an investment into something can leave vulnerabilities that get exploited elsewhere. The Frenzied flame perhaps being an exception (due to an implied personal vendetta), but it is not at all a trustworthy narrator (no reason to neither lie nor tell the truth - destruction cares little for either except as a ploy to get such to occur.) Plus, the goal the Frenzied flame has of not so much taking over realms but destroying them, puts it at odds with just about every other god, as if it burns the land then there is nothing to be claimed. Again, checkmating it and ensuring it doesn't do too much means gods investing power might not care to compete with the GW for the Lands Between due to doing so possibly losing the whole dominion if it allows Frenzied Flame to exploit the shifts.
As to why the gods would care about pieces of land like they are playing to a mortal mind a confusing game of cosmic monopoly: depends on the god. And what they want out of it. The Formless mother for example from a mortal lens seems to crave wounds. Thus, investments and manifesting in places take a different form, as it's not about the land but about getting those wounds. Each god wants something different out of it. What it grants, does or gives the god likely is somewhere in the ball court of cosmic deities, and thus I can't really say.
Guidance of Grace has most likely nothing to do with the Greater Will, its Marikas doing, proof for that is that the guidance doesnt disappear if you choose to become frenzied.
I want to clarify that the GW, as far as we know, wasn't worshipped in Marika's Golden Order. It actually seems like very few people actually know what the GW is, you can count the characters that actually mention it with two hands. Marika was the central figure of it all, she was the one true god in the truth she promoted (there can't be another god). Guidance of graces is also given (or taken) by Marika. With all evidence we get, not just by Ymir's dialogue and Hyetta's/3 fingers' dialogue, but also items descriptions from eras before Marikas order, it does point to the obvious conclussion that the GW is greater than any outer god, and possibly the one creator deity of the setting. That and iirc in the japanese text the GW is referred different than any of the other gods, afaik it isn't even called a god, it's just assumed it is greater, that and (apparently?) it uses kanji that generally is associated with the big G god of christianity, tho I can't vouch for that one cause I don't know japanese.
In SmoughTown's video on the Outer Gods, he makes a compelling case that Outer Gods are more like Kami, conceptual manifestations of the elements they represent. The "outer" comes from each of these elements being disconnected from the Elden Ring after the removal of the Rune of Death, thus making them "outside" the current natural order. This is based on the original name of the Outer Gods in Japanese (sotonaru), which merely refers to something outside of a system. And thematically, this makes sense. Bloodshed (Mother of Truth), decomposition (Scarlet Rot), death (Outer God of Death), and destruction (Fell God) all relate to death. I agree with your opinion that the Greater Will and the Frenzied Flame are beyond this and that the Greater Will introduced separation and differentiation, inevitably creating a counter-force in the form of the Frenzied Flame. At some early point in history, the Greater Will later sent the Mother of Fingers and the Elden Beast to implement order and structure to the lands between. I think its fair to say that before this, the primordial Lands Between were a chaotic soup of elemental influence, with Kami influencing nature like the shifting colors of an oil-slick. We know that the Elden Beast, and by extension the Greater Will, did not care that Marika removed the Rune of Death, and only intervened after she shattered it. This implies that the Greater will only cares that there is AN order and has no regard for the shape that order takes. Kami still have some ability to influence the world, but the Elden Ring likely restricts them, and the more "whole" the Ring is the more restricted they are. My hot take with regard to all of this is that the first inheritor of the Elden Ring, the origin of the crucible, and the first creator of a unified natural order was Placidusex's Dragon God. When we first see him, Placidusex's heads formed a Spiral, resembling the iconography of the crucible. The Hornsent revere horns as a sign of divine blessing, and the most naturally horned creatures we see are Dragons. The Divine Beast Dancing Lion shares many features dragons, and the real-world inspiration for it is a dragon itself. And though a negative does not prove a positive, we never see any evidence of another god after the Dragon God disappears, nor another form of divine tree. I think it was at this point that the Mother of Fingers stopped receiving messages from the Greater Will. If her job was to choose and guide prospective gods, then the job would be over once one was chosen. I think the Hornsent cultivated saints to build the Gate of Divinity in order to create their replacement god. They may have even succeeded. In the Shadow of the Erdtree intro, we see Marika pulling divinity out of a carcass- this could be Marika literally stealing godhood from the corpse of a defeated ascended Hornsent.
On the subject of the Scarlet Rot, I always theorized what exactly it is. Similar to poison, it seems like it is a type of infection. But where as poison is an external body invading your immune system, scarlet rot would be as if the iron in your blood is rusting. At least, that's what I like to hypothesize.
@MadLuigi I disagree with the premise that the Greater Will is somehow actually more powerful/greater than the other Outer Gods. It is simply the Outer God that has possession of the world currently, it definitely seems like before Marika, it wasn’t nearly as ascendantly powerful over the Lands between, as the Death Rite Birds Outer God ruled death beforehand, the mushroom crown’s lore hints at an age of rot and at one point it was either fully incarnated on the lands between and was sealed, or they mistook its envoy beast for it and sealed that, creating the lake of rot. Everybody, including the hornsent were terrified by the fell god of the giants, and the the moon has been up to something since the Nox worshipped it as the black moon before it was shattered into the memory stones and then started appearing to carian royalty as the full or dark moon. I do love hearing other people’s theories thoigh :-) always give your videos a like.
Disagreed. Not only hsve we heard in the creation story in the base game that treated the Greater Will as the actual creator of the universe who split the One Great (and before anyone tries the "that story is unreliable" argument…it’s coming from the Three Fingers. It’s enemies. You don’t spread propaganda making your enemy sound more awesome than they are lol), I’d say Ymir’s dialogue points in a similar direction. Some description or other said it granted sentience to beasts, if I remember right. And it was worshipped by the earliest civilization we know, the dragons. They had an Elden Lord and depictions of the Elden Ring, which we know was sent down by the Greater Will. I’m not sure why so many refuse to accept the simple facts the game is stating. The Greater Will is capital G God. Created everything. Then for some reason abandoned creation. That’s it. God is, seemingly, gone. As for the Outer Gods, the term is misleading and used by the English localization, not Japanese. Don’t blame anyone for this one though. That’s on the localization team. Outer God makes them sound like these Lovecraftian entities from a higher plane. Like Bloodborne shit. But they’re just Kami in Japanese. Spirits that embody different parts of nature. They’re lower g gods.
Nah, the greater will is still around. It just turned its back on the lands between after it gave up on the demigods repairing the elden ring. Thats why it extends its grace to the tarnished. The game narration directly tells us this at the beginning. Marika does not control grace (especially not being currently imprisoned), its the greater will.
@@rwberger6 Possible. Or that’s merely the interpretation of the Two Fingers, who are guided by Metyr, who we are told was broken long before any of this crap.
Why do people reject it? Because the fact that the GW is not only the capital G God of the setting, but has also abandoned its own creation loooong ago puts a hard stop to their fantasies of "working against the Greater Will". The Greater Will needs to be a lesser deity, vulnerable to some degree, and interested/active in the world for their ideas to work. People want a god you can fight against, like Shin Megami Tensei's YHWV or the Greek and Norse gods from God of War, but what they are getting is an actual "Abrahamic-coded, Aristotelian First Cause" God with deistic tendencies that said "peace out" to the universe long ago and left everyone to their devices.
Every time I look up new lore on the Twinbird/Deathbird god: DID YOU KNOW DEATH USED TO BE BURNED IN GHOSTFLAME?? Great, thank you game, always very helpful
I’m of the opinion snakes came first. Then dragons, perhaps under the mother of fingers (acting as the Elden beast does for merika radagon.) and at this time it is my belief the plan of the greater will began. Evolving limbs then fingeres onto its subject to better enect its golden will. But I belief the chaos of the beasts, was uncontrollable taimed only by sarosh. Who became king of the beasts in the time between the dragons and before merika. At this time too the hornsent occupied most of the lands between, collecting artifacts and momentous from all its previous cultures. Perhaps this age was under the formless mother. Creating a tower to the heavens made of pots, filled with people. But one person. A woman, refused. If the abyss represents all the bass needs of biology, the serpent is the predator brain. Who I belive merika seduced and killed at the Devine gate. The snake like madness or decay is unavoidable.
In my own observation, i think there's a high chance Placidusax's god was that of the Gloam Eyed Queen. Because for one the entirety of Farum Azula is a massive mausoleum, primarily guarded by undead creatures, secondly he's the Elden Lord before the age of the Erdtree, which we know was in time of her reign. Given how the Twin Bird served as vassal of the outergod of death, it's very its purpose to the Gloam Eyed Queen was the same as that of the Elden Beast to Marika. Perhaps after its Empyrean died, the Twinbird fled, leaving the injured Elden Lord to forever wait for its return Given how things played out, im starting to think that it was Marika who manipulated events to usurp the Gloam Eyed Queen. While we're not sure why Bayle sought to usurp his lord, the injury he caused to Placidusax very likely saw him too weaken to properly defend his Empyrean, or to defend her at all. Then there's the Gate of Divinity, from what we see in the trailer, it is not a relic that has already existed for a long time, but rather freshly made structure built from countless flayed corpses, a practice we have known the Gloam Eyed Queen for in the base game. The fact she never used it suggest one of two things: She was betrayed and killed at the last moment, or an Empyrean was the last component to finish the creation of the gate (which may explain why Marika was around til the very last moment). Considering we don't exactly know what Marika pulled out from her corpse, it could either be the Elden Ring (which supports the first possibility), or her essence (which supports the second) I find it rather poetic that he was Lord in her age considering his feature and immortality. The Elden Lord in the age of death, was one who is the perfect presentation of the crucible of life, protected from flow of time and death
Here is a little thing to grease the gears, maybe the snakes that Messmer and Rykard have are the equivalent of the abyssal serpent's "fingers", like the Greater Wills Two fingers
Oh and a side thought that is probably not true: I thought that the serpent found in Bonny village could be Messmer’s father, origin of his serpent. Not sure if right, but hey, I haven’t heard anyone give a good enough explanation of why that’s there.
the giants at the peak were impaled by messmer’s spear, so he definitely came to the lands between and fought wars there. when he moves to the land of shadows, his past, along with rellana and the ones who follow him, so in his absence, his deeds were probably misattributed to someone else, someone who’s a good fighter and is also a redhead, i guess he and his serpent might have given rykard the idea of allowing a serpent to consume him and grow big, or it was another serpent entirely. in bonny village, there is a molt for a serpent that doesn’t really match messmer’s, but is more similar to eiglay (if that’s the name of the giant serpent in the town of volcano manor) my impression, and i’m probably wrong, is that the snake possessing messmer is not similar to the rot possessing malenia or the fell god possessing the fire giant. it’s more like reptiles being cold blooded and prefer heat. get it? there are a bundle of serpents everywhere in volcano manor. the rykard serpent treads lava as if it was nothing. the godskin closer to being a serpent, the nobles, wield fire with much more proficiency. so the abyssal serpents possessed messmer because he was born with a warm fire. snakes like fire, snakes like messmer. a happy ending for everyone. what curioused me is why was messmer born with that particular fire? because his fire can burn down a special tree. the giant’s flame can also burn a special tree, so did the fell god try to sponsor its powers to messmer? did marika put the serpents in messmer to “swallow” or dampen this power somehow, to prevent him from becoming a threat to her erdtree?
I think Nanaya was holding the spine of Midra because Midra doesn't look like a hornsent, no horns. We can also see the way midra looks with his spine being replaced by the sword and when he removes it he has no spine therefore no head. Nanaya also told Midra to "endure", if she was trying to create a new frenzy lord then she would've encouraged Midra to give in to avoid the suffering. Holding the flame within himself caused him to become weak and not become a true lord of frenzy.
If Metyr was the Mother of all fingers, which we know she was, she also was the mother of the three fingers. So somehow the Greater Will and Frenzied Flame are more connected than we thought. Cause I can't see every three finger bein like "Yep, no, I'm going with the other outer god thats not our grandparent! And you can't stop me mom!" Mostly cause I feel like they are a hivemind of sorts. Clearly they have some sort of free will cause they can lie, maybe Metyr sought out a new God to serve through her fingers? Idk but there is definitely something we're missing about the greater wills connection to the frenzied flame and the three fingers.
Im pretty sure the star dust thing ymir is referring to literally how we exist, being the result of material that was launched out of the sun that cooled off and formed earth.
The flame of frenzy is basically the polar oppossite version of the greater will. It is chaos to its order, the three "missing" fingers to its two, it puts souls into corpses whereas the greater will grants rebirth, and it wants to return all to one while the greater will creates division and spreads.
the first time i saw Messmers phase 2 cutscene, i didnt know it was a seal of Marika that he plucked from his eye. i immediately just made a connection to the Fell God of the giants in the Fire Giant bossfight, the giant tears off his leg as an offering for the Fell God, i just thought Messmer sacefices his eye in exchange for the fire of the Fell God. After all, Messmers fire was a motive we saw time and time again throught the DLC, with Messmers Embers and the Furnace Golems.
I would even argue, taking other souls games as a starting point, that the Greater Will is dead and hence stopped communicating. That's the scary part to me, the God that created everything can die, and did, what's left for the rest of 'us' Tarnished who are a spec on this story?
"I, too, am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein." "We, too, are children of the Greater Will." "It is said that after sounding the hanging bell there... One's fate will be guided by the stars." "[The Moon] was merely the closest of the celestial bodies. Nothing more." I infer that Ymir doesn't think that the Moon is necessarily a completely mundane object, as he is a glintsone sorcerer and highly values the celestial bodies in a mystical and divine sense, particularly the stars above all else. I think perhaps what he focuses on is the grander perspective, rather than a few incidental supernatural forces that he views as unimportant by comparison. The Moon(s) may be sapient entities, or nonsapient but powerful forces, but in any case Ymir views them as the closest, not the most interesting or valuable.
My head canon is that the Outer Gods are the Marikas of other realms that the GW influences. We know that the GW doesn't really care, as long as there is an order to speak of, and so doesn't really care one way or the other how the gods under it try to spread their control across the realms. The Frenzied Flame may be separate, or is in its own way an order that the GW doesn't care about. I also think the moon (and stars and the primeval current) are natural influences but not sentient wills of their own.
When you mentioned the buds, I was reminded how the ancestral followers worship budding life. Perhaps the church of the bud believed something similar before the rot.
There's a diary page you can find in Midra's Manse describing an encounter an Aging Untouchable that resulted in him being corrupted by the frenzied flame. A huge and direct pointer to him being an unwilling host/lord to the flame
24:07 i think what Ymir meant by that is that he wanted the moons to be something more, something like the Greater Will. Given his obssesion with the fingers, it could be implied he wanted to find a greater power to which he would become a major agent
I think the greater will is just like every other outer gid, it's just that it was the one who divided the life inside the crucible and probably was the outer god regent since then
Regarding Mesmer's snake, looking into the mythology it's insbired by could help to understand. The myth i'm reffering to is Ophiuchus and Asclepius (yep, the winged snake that symbolize medicine).
Something interesting you may have missed and might throw a wrench in things with the formless mother is that underneath the start of the final legacy dungeon is an un damaged statue holding a revered spirit ash. This statue’s head is a skull with horns sticking out of it on one side. I’m not entirely sure what horns really mean in the dlc, but I feel like this detail changes something
the moons are directly connected to rellana and rennala, there used to be 2 moons in the lands between but when rellana left her moon accompanied her. reasons why we see a shadow of a 2nd moon from that high rise where we marry ranni.
Quick note for the lanterns, they are able to take damage from destined death without parrying, but it takes forever to kill them that way and you have to be really good at dodging the grab and surviving frenzy.
Placidusax's god was the former vessel of the Elden Ring.
The Dragons and the Beastmen were the first civilization to had the Elden Ring, in fact, it was the Greater Will who bestowed intelligence to the beastmen.
That wasn't his god.. it was his best friend.
Nothing says that about GW giving them intelligence. If you actually read the descriptions, it seems to imply the beastmen were placed there as guards LATER ON in the history, around the time of Maliketh still being relevant to Marika’s needs. Dragons were first, then Beastmen far later on
@@foxywoxy1915 Moreover, the Cinquedea, which is the source description of intelligence being bestowed upon the Beastmen, states that the five fingers is only symbolic of that intelligence, not linked causally.
More-moreover, we know that Metyr was the first falling star to land on the Lands Between, so we can place her arrival to be just shortly before the invention of glintstone Sorcery and coinciding with meteorites becoming culturally significant. Farum Azula has no connection with meteorites or sorcery, save that one smashed into the city and destroyed it, creating the Ruins Greatsword. The first mention of Glintstone Sorcery in the timeline is with the Astrologers, who were living on the Mountaintops when the Giants ruled them, which is after the Ice Dragons were deposed/killed off. The Ice Dragons are the distant descendants of Bayle, who is the progenitor of the Drake (wyvern-style dragons) bloodline, and thus would only rise to prominence after Placidusax is wounded and retreats to the Storm Beyond Time, as the Dragonlord received his wounds during the battle with Bayle.
We also know that the Elden Ring and the Elden Beast are not the same, because we kill the Elden Beast and the Elden Ring still retains all of its power.
So the timeline that I've constructed seems to go like this:
Ancient Dragons rule, with a Storm/Time God (maybe) -> Bayle betrays the Ancient Dragons -> The Drakes spread throughout the world, making Ice Dragons -> The Fire Giants take over the Mountaintops -> Metyr arrives in the Lands Between and spawns the Fingers -> Glintstone Sorcery is invented among the Astrologers
@@foxywoxy1915The current description isn't as explicit that's true, the older one actively mentioned the greater will, and no, it is very obviously talking about the ancient dragons time and not Marika's
I heard a theory that Placidusax’s god was GW because his resting pose resembles the pose the two fingers take to communicate with greater will. Now after DLC I wonder if his god was Metyr because that’s likely who the two fingers communicate directly with as well. It would line up as metyr was the first envoy of GW, and later was wounded/abandoned, where we fight her might be where she fled to.
It would might also explain why the Cinquedea says
“The design celebrates a beast's five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence once granted upon their kind.”
Referring to the mother of finger granting intelligence and association with Fingercreepers.
My inner god is that dog inside
Makes sense. dog is God backwards
He got that dog in him
Blaidd
behold, dog!
Inside you are two dogs. One has scarlet rot. The other has scarlet rot. You have scarlet rot.
Theres another connection to the Fell god in the dlc: the Lamenter, for some reason. When you transform, the fell god's face appears on your back, and there are tufts of red hair between your horns.
The Lamenter is the closest thing to an Omen in the dlc, and in retrospect its weird how many times the word Fell is used with Omens in the base game. Margit the Fell, the Fell omen twins guarding the divine tower, the mending rune of the Fell curse. They might be different words in Japanese though, idk
The omen being possibly linked to the fell god is interesting. There's also the furnace visage, which is said to depict the fell god's face, and is a sun lined with horns. Since the crucible, the fell god, and the hornsent/omen are all linked by horns, is the crucible a product of the fell god? The god was likened to a furnace, and the word "crucible" bring to mind fire, and forging, aspects of the fire giant's culture. There's also the red tint of the primordial crucible mention in the crucible knight's set, which again link the crucible to the fell god
@@astrid9920 the other interesting thing about the Lamenter is that during the transformation, you actually burn in Blackflame. Which at the very least cements a connection between the Blackflame, the Fell God, and the Hornsent.
@@PeteQuainti think you just cooked up some gourmet connections with this
@@PeteQuaint Considering all the subtle reference to the sun with the Giants and the Fell God (Flame of the Fell God incant looks like a sun too) as well as the Dung Eater and Furnace Golems, and the Omen being associated with large physicality, the crucible described as a melting pot, the act of forging described as an art originating with the giants, the many connections between lions, horns and the sun in their own right, and some other (admittedly more tenuous) connections, I'm starting to think that the Fell God is somehow the God of the Sun. It would also give a nice bit of connection to the Astrologers and the Giants back on the Mountaintop, giving them a neat little sun & moon dichotomy. Idk, I'm just theorising but I feel like there's something there
@@DJYungHoxhaThe swirls around the fell god are the planets around the sun.
I think the thing is that the sun (i.e. the fell god) is somehow deeply connected or related to the Crucible (evolution/life), but most people don't actually like the fell god. Since the sun is ultimately the source of the fuel that life uses to sustain itself, it is no surprise that Marika can't eliminate the Fell god, and no one else, including the hornsent, are able to either.
2 years ago: Greater Will plays with other Outer Gods a game of throne about who controls the world!
Now, finally: IT DON'T CARE.
*insert nerd emoji* actually u mean "IT DOESN'T CARE"
The Greater Will was never an outer god to begin with.
@@jarlwilliam9932proof?
Stroke
This might be the funniest lore implication from the DLC - that GW honestly dones't give a fuck. It didn't even tell Marika to do all that fucked shit, it was all her.
I've been saying since the game came out, it's stated explicitly in the intro that the Greater Will has abandoned the Lands Between
tbf, it’s detailed as the Greater Will abandoning the world AFTER the Shattering. Of course, with the new context, we know that’s propaganda and/or simply fake
I think since it’s mentioned so much in game people assume that it’s some mastermind behind everything when it’s really just the people it left behind fucking everything up
Yeah I got that feeling when Enia was translating the Two Fingers words in that the Greater Will haven't "left" or something.
@@jik9693 the fingers were talking to metyr the entire time since the greater will was communicating to metyr but abandoned which may mean that metyr was the greater will to the lands between since we do not know how long metyr was abandoned.
i only noticed this just now after having watched the intro so many times for 2 years lol
Something to note about the base serpent that i think Zullie the Witch mentioned first; it always begins the second phase by slamming down and consuming an orb of fire that seems very reminiscent of Rykard's own vision of a serpent swallowing the world. Whether that actually means anything, i dont know.
isn’t that just messmer doing messmer’s orb? like the move he always does in his first phase, now done as the first move in his second?
@@HeronHero while Elden ring is a big world, I can certainly imagine the different divine serpent traditions stemming from a single serpent outer god. A god of destruction and rebirth as is seen in both the aspects of shedding skin/ burning in Mesmer, as well as devouring but also becoming a new united being in Rykard. Maybe this serpent god had great sway over Mesmer from the start, like the rot god with Malenia, but then later Rykard simply found it and began worshipping it like Mogh and the formless mother
I believe it was stated somewhere that the serpent tried to consume mesmers flame. So unleashing it might mean that it will do that the first chance it has
I mean, "base" serpent might be just that, the actual original serpent, or what was left of it; not like Marika would be against using those things, and it would explain how Rykard got hands on some snakes bits that then grew to be what it is now.
@@todd3143You have it backwards. It's not "The orb move came into existance because of something Messmer did". It's "The orb existed before Messmer, and he inherited it."
It's like Malenia's blooming. It's something inherent to the outer god possessing them that they are able to manifest as their signature move.
Specifically, Messmer's Orb is symbolic of Apep (and probably other world eating serpents as well), the Egyptian snake god of chaos (the void/the abyss) who tries to eat Ra (the sun) and/or the world.
I don't think it makes sense that Midra was intentionally supportive of the frenzied flame, I think he came in contact with it then the Inquisiton sealed it in him with the golden barb, much like how we seal away rot within Millicent with the golden needle, I think he was merely a prison for the frenzied flame, one that's been leaking for a very long time. He even says "the depths of your foolishness" and then reluctantly pulls out the barb in exhaustion, as if he's hesitant and warning us off.
Yeah, he was very against the flame. He urges anyone who comes close to him to avoid him. Not because he’s trying to threaten you with the Flame, but because he’s trying to save you, him, and the entire world, for what he’s about to unintentionally unleash if you disturb his “calmness”. Or, at least, as “calm” as one can be under such strenuous situations.
His situation, I akin it to the practices of Chinese monks being able to withstand immense pain by just being *calm* . Midra is going through something similar. He’s told to “endure”, and to do that, he must try to quell his extreme suffering by way of meditation and/or NO human contact that may affect his human urges.
This is even immensely evident in how he can’t control his human urges when you enter his room. He’s like a crack addict who’s been forced to remain a crack addict for DECADES. So when he sees another human, his human urges takes over and throws himself at you, forcing him to “share” his frenzied flame with you. Once you attack him enough, of course, he will feel the most human feeling of all: the feeling of not wanting to experience pain anymore.
Really tragic character, and a fantastic way to give more depth to the Frenzied Flame concept. He’s forcing himself to not release the Flame by being as inhumane as possible. Only when he begins to be “human”, and feels emotions, is ironically when he releases the Flame.
Probably my fav character in the game, and how his story explains that pain and suffering leads to the most human emotions. And being human, I’m the face of suffering, is what summons the Frenzied Flames of Chaos. Fantastic stuff. The DLC in general reinforces the themes of how pain and suffering leads to power of a Greater force. Marika’s Pain attracting the Fingers; Romina’s suffering leads to her discovering the Rot; Messmer’s suffering ultimately leads to this twisted and obscure Snake deity at his behest; the Hornsent’s ritualistic and ascetic practice of bringing oneself pain to reacher a higher divinity, etc.
TL;DR - sorry for the yap. Just wanted to gush about Midra and Chaos while I was on a tangent. But yes, you are absolutely correct
No he was trying to find the frenzied flame and become the lord of frenzied flame but failed
@@HeevaEgodamn this is such a good way to look at it🔥
It makes sense, after all we know the Frenzied God made contact with the travelling merchants after they were entombed and abandoned by the golden order.
It makes sense that it would try the same thing with Midra, the merchants would come to embrace the flame in there torment gut Midra resists it right up till the moment that he is about to die at the players hands.
The thing is that in one of the hidden rooms of Midra's Manor you will find tons of fingers and stuff from one of the finger ruins. So at least someone in the manor was poking around the 3 fingers
In the ashes of Ornis It Is said that he "tamed a divine Bird" and that he's the ancestor of the hornsent warriors. Since there are a lot of connections between death rites and the hornsent culture, maybe this Bird Is the twin kite
Not to disregard your comment but I spent 10 seconds figuring out what a "twink ite" was until I realized you said "twin kite"
@@powerdrillpete9319 fucken hell me too
@@powerdrillpete9319 a metal made out of twinks
The twinbird could very well be said bird. These crucible beings can have two heads as evidenced by the twin turtle talisman.
The divine bird warrior armor set refers to golden birds that rarely associated with people, but that some rare individuals could “invoke their divinity”, which to me sounds like similar language to the divine elements of other outer gods
I’ve always thought Messmer’s flames were a curse from the fell god. It’s always been stated that Radagon had some connection to the giants and the fell god that caused them to have red hair. I believe the fell gods power manifested through Radagon’s bloodline in Melina and Messmer since Messmer can wield fire Melina can channel the flame of the fell god. Also supporting this is that Messmer has always hated his fire making it more of a curse rather than a blessing.
God damn messmer supposedly hating his fire yet never missing a chance to use it
This makes a lot of sense
@@buffoonustroglodytus4688 it parallels really well to morgott and contrasts very well to malenia imo. the fact that messmer hates his fire but uses it so much is a lot like how morgott hates his omen nature but utilises his omen features like his tail and the sword made of his blood. meanwhile malenia outright rejects using her scarlet rot in fights up until the moments where she's desperate for a win, like against radahn and the tarnished
@@buffoonustroglodytus4688even Kratos is forced to use the Blades of Chaos despite hating them.
Except Mesmer predates Radagon as a separate character from Marika. Mesmer is not Radagon’s son and his curse comes from the serpent not the fell god.
I like how Midra has a total Yellow King vibe
You might be able to get into Fear and Hunger if you like things like the King in Yellow
@@Aether_GM I have the first one and have played it a few times through. Haven't gotten around to the 2nd yet
I really wish we got more lore for the Base Serpent.
Honestly. Like what is it and how different is it from the one that Rykard fed himself to? Ik they are different beings but maybe, both being serpents, have some kind of connection?
Serpents and other animal-like beings seem to be the native beings of the world in Elden Ring. Probably due to some connection with the crucible
Same
I think the Base Serpent is the actual physical body of the God Eating Serpent
I want to see more Ancestral Spirit lore
I love the goofy vintage sounding alien motif that plays when you enter the mother of fingers boss arena. It feels like the most out there thing in elden ring.
during her second phase the sound playing is the recorded sound of a black hole
Seeing as unalloyed gold is supposed to suppress the presence of outer gods, I think it's a missed opportunity that it isn't being discussed as to whether in the Age of Compassion that Miquella would be considered the one true god, and thus the belief in other outer gods would be repressed
I think the age of compassion might still be the greater will moving through Miquella, using his powers of compulsion to force ultimate order on the lands between
@@jacksonbrooks404 i wouldve loved if we got a new 7th ending for the main game involving miquella
@@ClaveBBY Miquella fanatics be like:
@@HeevaEgo i dont even like him, i rlly just think it would be cool and a missed opportunity
@@ClaveBBY we should have an ending for each empyrean (marika, ranni, malenia, miquella, messmer, maybe melina)
If there are outer gods that implies inner gods.
Marika, malenia and miqulla
I know you meant this as a silly comment, but there do indeed exist "inner gods", that being mortals ascended to God status, such as Marika (and now Miquella), while not even close to the Outer Gods they are definitely above anyone else in the Lands Between
Im lookin for the swaggur gods
@@Lexsed I wasn’t actually. I’m suggesting that song of these beings that one people think are outer gods knight actually be inner gods like Marika and ever so briefly Miquella.
@@gundarium4237 I think there may be others too that we just don’t know about or haven’t realised! The death birds, for example, come from a time that we know very little about but I don’t think the twin birds are necessarily outer gods. But who knows. It’s fun speculating. That’s the key to the comment I left 😊
6:20 Glad you mentioned this - I think the "heat death of the universe" is exactly what inspired the "chaos flame", which is a very artistic interpretation of the phrase but nevertheless lines up with it perfectly.
I think heat death is specifically the absence of heat transfer. Space is always expanding faster and faster, the idea is the area between intractable objects becomes so massive that it becomes impossible to transfer energy, it can't do anything. Burning everything is in essence, adding energy, nothing in particular has been lost, only changed.
Heat death is about cold, though
@@MrDexSatheat death is about maximum entropy. Metaphorically and physically it corresponds to the cold after all fire burns out. In our reality our “magic” fires that keep everything going are stars. Burning hot now but ever increasing entropy until all is uniform chaos without order. Again, that’s just real life and is the same process that leads to cancer and death as you as a human being burn fuel each day to hold your form against the entropy until one day you fall apart and become dirt or ash.
@@darrylkoski529 that is an entirely different theory that doesn't even make sense. the heat death of the universe is a theory because all forms of energy tend to change in part to heat, and that all reactions tend toward increasing entropy to release heat, which means greater disorder which means less structures like planets. changing things to have no differences is a loss of individuality and clarity, obviously the total sum of materials remains the same.
You forgot to mention a diary page that hints at the parry opening up the lanterns for an attack.
It says
"I touched him, but only once.
When he thrust his staff in my face, I brushed it aside.
It was then that I touched him. The aging untouchable."
Perhaps, the fact that you show confidence in the face of it's weakness, humiliates the monster and opens it up for attacks.
Parry does this pretty well. Hit em with ego. It's probably the single most ballsy move you can pull on something. Just slap it away.
There is SO much evidence in the game supporting the existence of a snake outer god. First, look up the legend of Eglé (pronounced Eiglay) in Lithuanian folklore. It is a story that I'll loosely describe as being about a druid woman (tree shaman) who weds a snake and is forced to have children with it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egl%C4%97_the_Queen_of_Serpents
Also, to get out in front of the comparisons between Rykard's serpent and the serpent god Eiglay, let's consider the Japanese text of the game, and confirm there is a serpent deity at the same time. The Kanji used to describe the serpent deity Eiglay is written as 蛇神, which denotes it as an "ancient god," and parallels the kanji used in various places to describe the Fell God and the God of Rot. Contrasting with that, Rykard’s Great Serpent is 大蛇. It is NEVER referred to as a god (神) in any item description or anywhere else in the text of the game.
Ergo, there is 100% a serpent god, and its name is Eiglay! As for the innumerable connections between the Fell God and the Serpent God... I'll let you guys go down that rabbit hole. I've already been there. Let's just ask ourselves... why is the Abyssal Serpent's skin covered in red hair and eyes? Why is the Giant's Forge surrounded by serpents on all sides? Why is the skill of the Serpent Flail- used by Messmer's soldiers- called "Flare O' Serpent," drawing parallel to the Fell flame skills/incantations Surge, O Flame, Whirl O Flame, etc. And why does the duelist armor, covered in snakes, bear the eye of the Fell God on its greaves? I will stop short of drawing parallels to the Norse myth of Ragnarok, where the Red Wolf Fenrir (Radagon's red wolf? Fire giant?) and Jormungander are responsible for the destruction of Yygdrasil, the world tree. But the parallels are there. Finally.. we just happen to use the Fell God's flame to burn the Erdtree, just as we use Messmer's flame to burn the Scadutree's thorns away.
There's more to connect the Serpent God and the Fell God, but I'll stop there. Thanks for reading!
If anything it proves the serpents worship is attracted to divine/fell gods' flames.... which I do think has been true since release. Serpents in ER seems attracted to fire, to be very powerful which is possibly the main reason they're considered heretical/blasphemous.
Jormungandr is accounted for in the base game and Miyazaki isn't known to pluck one creature from a specific lore and mash it with other things. He usually buys things wholesale and try to fit it with basically Berserk the manga and a mythology. Jormungandr wasn't considered a God either.
Another thing that's unprecedented is to chain two hidden gods together like you're doing here. The Fell God and the Serpent God being so intertwined with no actual text has never been Froms style (I.e. Formless Oedon or Velka).
I'd also like to point out that Marika in the Japanese translation is a "Shrine Maiden" and not a Shaman. We don't know enough about the Shamans to know why they were translated that way and not going with the classics translation.
My theory is that Miquella doesn't have a single origin, she is the culmination of jar experiments and in that there were also Giants combined, her sanctified status made her a blessing for all in the crucible era and presented to the Giants where she was taken care of/made a consort to the fell God. She got in contact with the fingers and became and Empyrean, betrayed the Giants, got cursed by grandam and began her holy crusade against the crucible for a new era of golden order. Why people are obsessed with her f*cking a snake is beyond me because there's no proof of that ever happening.
Of further note is that the Temple of Eiglay in Volcano Manor literally has statues on the walls that can be best described as winged serpents.
Also, Messmer's bossfight actually has two different serpents - one is more snub-nosed with ragged red hair, red eyes half-peering from its pale grey flesh, with its right eye a gaping wound and its left closed shut - just as Messmer. The other is red and black in color, with fully open red eyes in its body, longer and more tapered jaws, and haphazard eyes across its face; it is also summoned directly by his hand reaching into a dark void, while the other seems to be him transforming/'melting' into it.
Since the first serpent seems to be an embodiment of Messmer, and is white just like his winged serpents turn white during his 2nd phase, I think that is the 'Base Serpent' within Messmer, while the darker serpent summoned from a void is the true 'Abyssal Serpent,' or a manifestation of it.
@@kaingates the Japanese ID for Shaman Village is 巫子の村 - literally, 'Shrine Maiden Village.' Shaman is also translated as Shrine Maiden in the Japanese description of the Tooth Whip. They seem to be one and the same.
In trailer messmers fire flew thru the air in a serpent fashion
@@sayanchandaroy7420whoa! I didn't know about the two serpents manifesting in his boss fight- I thought it was just the one. Super interesting, will definitely look into that more!
There's an interesting item somewhere that's a Spiritgrave stone that's been burned by the frenzied flame - it describes how the frenzied flame has the power to burn away spirits despite their being eternal, which is the reason the Hornsent forbid it.
I thought this was interesting cause the Hornsent seem to have a death rite spirituality based on a different kind of cremation with ghostflame. Haven't seen this discussed much.
They very well may have worshipped the god of death, given the divine bird warriors and the grave birds in Enir Ilim.
The importance of the Cerulean Coast and Hidden Grave of Charo is to reference the unique interconnection between Death and Sleep. In greek mythology, Thanatos and Hypnos were brothers.
My assumption is that the fact that it resembles the color of the shield represents the dual naturenof death. If we take both blue and red we get purple, in which case purple is a consistent color themed around portals and travel in this game. The fact that you navigate by getting into coffins in some parts of the game helps correlate this idea with death being a journey, not an end.
In my honest opinion, rhis revelation openly puts a spotlight to the fact that Marika was hoping to raise Miquella (as St Trina) to be yet another loophole to the principle of Death by replacing Death with Eternal Sleep. Similar in nature yet just different enough to be "legal" in the overall rules of the universe without "death" as a rule.
Oh, I love this death loophole idea! How unique!!
Great video, can’t wait for the rabbit holes in the weeks to come
Thanks! And yeah there are many to traverse
I think midra was studying the flame when he accidentally inherited it and was impaled to hold back the flame from taking over and making him a lord, which is possibly why he was too weak when he eventually did become a lord and why he apologizes to nanaya when he transforms
He was too weak because we killed him…
I have headcanon that makes me believe that the Formless Mother is actually the fleshy "jar" remains of Marika. That once she ascended to godhood; her flesh followed suit.
This is why it desires wounds, the intense torture of the Hornsent which most certainly twisted the collective mind of the jar innard shamans.
I came to this idea because there is a prominent jar innard enemy in shadow keep that creates a large pool of bleed-inducing magic effects.
This is a good idea. It would also connect the blood flies of the Formless Mother and the fly ailment together, as well as the use of Fly Mold in making heavy pots. Perhaps the flies helped decompose flesh within the Jars for better amalgamation. There is even a practice of using flies on certain types of cheese to break down the cheese and ferment it more. Fermentation and Rot are crucial for alchemical processes (in fiction, at least, since Alchemy is a pseudoscience). Marika may just be a shaman fermented to perfection. Her flesh may be the Formless Mother, or the remaining slop after the fermentation process which is either discarded or used for fermentation starter in other jars.
@@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962 I recommend looking up Ziostorm’s video on how Elden Ring is connected to mushrooms. You’ve touched upon some fascinating things that he mentions as well.
@@MorningGloryDancer I have seen Ziostorm's videos and I think there is merit in what he says. It has been speculated that the Weirwood trees in ASOIF are also mushrooms. I would not be surprised. Mushrooms can grow in space, too, which may be significant to ER's lore.
@@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962 Today, I learned that mushrooms can grow in space, hahaha
@@MorningGloryDancer well, I meant to say fungi generally, but evidently mushrooms can thrive in space and fungal spores might be the key to life, or so some scientists believe. The space stations have fungi growing on them, and not just indoors. It is crazy.
I have reason to believe Messmer's and Miquella's curses are the work of outer gods. Malenia's scarlet rot is from the sealed God, Melina's vision of fire is from the Fell God. It could be that Miquella's youthfulness (which he seems to have gotten rid of in the boss fight) and the Abyssal serpent are more instances of this happening.
Edit: The abyssal serpent is possibly related to the God-Devouring serpent and Eiglay, who likely have an outer god related them based on the magma sorcery descriptions.
Additionally, miquella's curse is sort of an antithesis to the scarlet rot, as he never decays or withers like his sister.
I believe this 100%. Melania, Messmer, Melina and Miquella all were curse by outer gods in one way or another.
I think all Empyreans can be mediums for the gods and entities, Malena rot god, Ranni Moon, Marika Great will. Remembering that George R.R. Martin wrote the Lore of Elden Ring also wrote GOT and that the game of thrones is a central theme in all his works, so most likely the gods are playing and the pieces on the board are the Empyreans
The issue of the curse is a duality, as demonstrated with Mohg or Morgott, it is a matter of point of view, as in the great order any influence from another god is considered proven, and will normally be seen as a curse. You can also see this with Malena and Milicent and their sisters, the sisters and Gowry treat it as a gift. Also Malena is reborn as a goddess in the second form of her fight precisely for this curse/gift. The curse in these cases is the influence of a god other than The Great Will.
the Tarnished are the opposite, they are the people who have lost grace (what the order calls grace is actually the influence exerted by the Great Will) Ranni kills her own body, people from Nokron and Ijji use the mirror helmet but none of the Tarnished use anything and none are directly controlled by gods , only influenced.
Something to look into is that i think metyr is apolozing. When you get her weapon the attack calls it kowtow and isnt that the japanese action for deeply apoligizing. A thought i had that either shes apologizing to us for the mess her children have caused or shes apologizing to its parent aka the greater will.
If shes apologizing to the greater will then it opens up the possibility that metyr might have done something that caused the greater will to abandon the lands between
Im really sad about the lack of death god lore, especially given that the land of shadow is a land of death. It would have made perfect sense if the scadutree was the helphen instead
I’m not sure why I didn’t pick up on this before, but if the land of shadow is the land of death, then wouldn’t it make sense for the Gloam-Eyed Queen to have inhabited it previously? We know that the Golden Order was created at the moment when Maliketh defeated her and the Rune of Death was removed from the Elden Ring. Could this mean that maybe she was ruling in Leyndell before the lands were separated and Marika achieved godhood with the aspect of gold and then everything went down after that? There is a lot of speculation around why the trailer shows Marika at the divine gate with a bold purple sky, the same purple as the Gloam-Eyed Queen…
@MorningGloryDancer the LOS is a land of death because of the suppressing tower. However, while there is reason to believe Marika built it given her history of sealing and removing death, it's architecture may suggest its older. We simply don't know.
It would make sense for the gloam Eyed Queen to rule over the lands between and LOS (since they were only disconnected after Marika's ascension), we only ever hear about her being an empyrean, not a god. But the gloamed sky suggests otherwise as you stated.
Lots of questions still. It's unfortunate we got zero new death lore other than the suppressing tower, given that the LOS is literally where all death is concentrated too.
@@jarroddt Great points. Perhaps that is why she has the title Gloam-Eyed Queen, rather than something more divine like Queen Marika the Eternal. Is it possible that the Elden Ring maybe didn't have a vessel for some time while the Empyreans were identified? Both the Gloam-Eyed Queen and Marika may have been up for bids by the Two Fingers, and Marika won, perhaps through the seduction... Knowing that Placidusax's god ran off, the Greater Will didn't exactly get a two-weeks notice to backfill the job, haha! Do you have thoughts on that?
@MorningGloryDancer presuming that the definition of the title of God (vessel of the ring) has been constant throughout the land betweens history, then yes, the elden ring would have been vessel-less for a time until a new God arose. Unless Placidusax's God didn't abandon the ring, in which it would have had to have been taken from them, which is an interesting thought given the story trailer. We also don't know though if there were other gods between placidusax's and Marika however, so there may have been a hornsent god before Marika. Given that the godskins do wear the skin of gods, I think it's safe to assume that either
1) that the Gloam Eyed Queen and Marika worked together, killed the hornsent god/placidusax gos, Marika betrayed GEQ to ascend to godhood and that started the godskin apostasy, or
2) that the godskins have existed for eons and the GEQ was an anti-goddess of sorts, killing gods throughout history to pave the way for the next age, and that she was simply either eventually a became candidate for godhood, or empyreans are candidates for gods and this antigod role.
That's just speculation though and is pretty baseless tbh. We simply don't know enough about the cosmology and history of the lands between to say for certain.
But yeah lots of people thought that when the trailer first came out. Not sure if that's still the general consensus but I'd assume it is.
@@jarroddt IT'S SKIN! IT'S SKIN STITCHED TOGETHER!!! I was writing a lovely response to you, thanking you for indulging me in this speculation, and then I had the thought of exploring your first proposition. I went back to watch the teaser, and the item that Marika pulls the golden strands out of is godskin with stitches!!!! Please go watch and tell me if you agree. Did we just discover something?
I was yet to discover the bloodfiend chief and the extra lore on formless mother. Glad I found this video
Glad you found it useful!
Honestly, we need a massive compendium with all the Elden Ring lore, breaking all of it down. From who Placi was an Elden Lord for, to the Gloam Eyes Queen, EVERYTHING. I need it all
“Plah-si-DU-6” made me laugh
Rich dragon fortystacks
Ive read a theory that the abyssal serpent was originally gloam eyed queen's consort, that their kids are the godskins and the god devouring serpent, and that upon their defeat the abyssal serpent unintentionally or no came to dwell or was sealed within marika's son messmer, while the geq was within melina(not being her)
The entire Outer God concept is what makes me love the souls games
Outer gods always existed in Formsoftware games. Starting from dark souls to Bloodborne. Elden ring receives attention cuz it became popular
@@sailingadventurer I know 😎
the games didnt invent something this basic
@sailingadventurer where are the outer gods in ds? The concept started with bb not ds
@@ainz2579The First Flame and the Abyss fill similar roles as the outer gods of BB and ER, so I guess they are referring to them?
I think the detail of how the union of radagon and marika (who are kind of basically the same person) gave birth to children with defects (albeit on a godly level) is an interesting parallel to those small family trees of medieval times
Man, Ramina is the most confusing new character for me. Not to get too into the weeds bu twhy is she protecting the sealing tree? Is she working with Messmer or is she protecting the tree form Messmer? It makes no sense!
She might just be protecting the tree in general. I'm assuming the thorns were put up to prevent anybody form accessing the gate of divinity after what Marika did with her godhood, and so she's standing guard to ensure nobody can touch the tree
Heard from a different video that she was also a victim of Messmers crusade, so she probably defends it from him
In the story trailer, you can see that Enir Ilum was already shrouded while Messmer was assaulting Belurat. And Romina is definitely against Messmer. The shrouding must have been a defensive measure taken by the hornsent
@@aminubk Yeah, you can see a woman burning in one of the trailers portraying Messmer's crusade. It's not outright shown because she's not in the same form as during the boss fight (no scorpion/centipedes attached to her), but it's a woman holding a halberd that looks exactly like the one Romina is using, so I'm just assuming it's likely her
She feels like a character that was just pushed in last second no cutscenes or dialogue just fight
My theory about metyr as well as Placidussax is that the greater will didn’t cut itself off and abandon them, but a rogue element in the world cut them both off from it. Especially in metyrs case that huge gash and the fact that she only creates finger creepers and no new 2 fingers might suggest such.
But I would say that, that might be unlikely because of the Elden Beast.
Btw I want to say that there is a huge possibility of the dragons outer god is in some way or form just the greater will or a different perception of that specific god one mostly related to Time. But also other aspects shared with the other outer gods
Similar to real world mythology and religion where one god has slight differences across different cultures and religions.
Allah and the Christian God or יהוה/YHWH.
Or gods like Jupiter and Saturn.
The dragon outer god and the symbolism that surrounds them and all of Farum Azula, in general I would say is just very weird and confusing.
You have Placidussax being Elden lord and ALSO for some reason abandoned by an outer god, awaiting signs like Metyr. Also not forgetting the old Elden ring depiction in Farum Azula which shows a even more complex design of the elden ring.
Then you have the themes of death everywhere. Or the theme of decay (kinda like Rot.) and time.
You could either interpret this as dragons having been polytheistic or straight up monotheistic, believing that there are no outer gods just one great God with many different faces.
Mabye someone like a banished civilization know they finger slaying blades?
with placidissax i feel he was lord of a completely different time, i dont think the greater will fully got its hold on the lands between until marika ascended to godhood.
on metyr and her fingers and a bit off topic, but it deems to reason that she also birthed the 3 fingers right? but we got nothing on that? i have a thought, complete speculation but what if she was abandoned at a time of birthing them, the fingers that answer to another outer god? complete speculation though
@@davidmorcombe6779this can't be possible. Placidusax had the Elden ring and the Elden ring is the Elden beast
@@Nube_Negrah what item says he held the elden ring? because i dont recall that actually being stated
@@davidmorcombe6779 It's stated that Placidusax was an Elden Lord, meaning that he was probably consort to a god that had the Elden Ring.
Attack on titan 🤝 Elden ring
Having a person named Ymir reveal everything is connected through a single point.
I think what's implied by Hyetta's monologue is a similar creation myth to Dark Souls, as well as Daoism. Everything was once undifferentiated and timeless, then things began to split into yin and yang, light and dark, etc.
I don't think the greater will is more powerful than the other gods, I think it's just the one with the most sway in the Lands Between. It was the first to start sending its envoys.
It's interesting that in the Elden Ring lore, space or celestial bodies appear to be conscious in some way as they can and have communicated with the people of the lands between. Probably not a great thought but I do definitely see another dlc in the future. Love the video
I should mention that the Greater Will isnt refered to as an Outer God in the Japenese. Outer God meaning out of order maybe. Im not Japanese Ive just seen other people saying as such. But it would explain why the Greater Will abandoning the lands between leaving it unprotected and still the outer gods cant fully influence our domain.
The Greater Will is essentially just the God of all existence.
Like the Abrahamic God essentially did.
Yeah, IMO there's no fundamental difference between the greater will and the outer gods. It's just that it has been the dominant force for longer.
@@LordBackuro The Greater Will is just God, with a capital g, the Outer Gods are gods with a lowercase g, they are embodiments of aspects of reality, rot, darkness, death, blood, etc.
Greater will seems to be more like azatoth. Still an outer god.
I mean it's just another part of the one absolute and it's counterpart is the flame of frenzy, which is confirmed an outer god due to miquella's needle. If the flame of frenzy is an outer god, it's reasonable to assume it's counterpart is one too.
My Favourite fan theory I heard about the outer gods that are meddling in the lands between is that they represent primordial forces that Marika/Radagon excluded from their imposed Order on the world represented by the current elden ring. You have Darkness or Night (The moon), Death (deathbird creator), Blood (Formless mother), Oblivion (Frenzied Flame), and Decay (rot goddess). Each of these outer gods meddling in the lands between while the greater will is control might be consequence of Marika not including these aspects of existence in the elden ring. Those are the parts of existence that Goldmask realise weren't included in the elden ring and fixes the elden ring in the perfect order ending.
Marika the eternal rejected the aspects of death decay and disease, the cause of the temporary state of life
Darkness or Night things is more relate to GW than the moon.
We have life that was within glintstones of cosmos (from what Sellen told us), and GW responded for creating life.
Elden Ring, which was sent here by GW as well, can command the stars, and it's not the moon that dominate the night sky since one that the moon and stars will take seperate way.
GW is descriped as the abyss, void, and darkness in Ymir's headgear.
Interestingly, the JP word Darkness that uses for describe GW is also the same one as a selia's sorcery "Eternal Darkness" and we know that it is "the despair that brought about its ruin made manifest."
On the subject of the Fell God and the furnaces, I believe Smoughtown made a connection between the mask with curlled horns and the iris' design of the Fell God's eye
You have the best lore voice tho Its not too loud or weird but its not too quiet and boring, very perfect
Appreciate it lol
each outer god atmosphere is based on primary colors 🔷️🔻🔶️
@@MadLuigi each outer god own atmospheric land is based on primary the colors 🔶️🔻🔷️
I think the base serpent is an outer god and the serpent that rykard fused with could be it's lord or something. Also the serpent people of volcano manor and the serpent god thing from the curved sword description might support it.
I had some thoughts while you were talking. It felt like any capital G Gods had a complete circle of death and rebirth ie taking life from one and giving it to another.
Marika - tree burial and regrowing from the erdtree
Blood Mother - transfusions
Snake - maybe not as noticable but in our world we have the idea of Oroboros
Scarlet Rot - decay. pretty straight forward.
Death - those who love in death,zombies, etc
The Greater Will and the Frenzied Flame seem to be a step above the others. Where the good of rot and Marika and the others seem to govern individual life, they seem to try to govern life on a macro scale.
There’s also the old gods mentioned in the description of the Ancient Meteoric Ore Greatsword: “One of the treasures of the ruined forges.
Greatsword of ancient meteoric ore, ending in a sharp point. Fashioned from an excavated shard of an arrowhead that once was a part of the old gods' arsenal. A capable piercing weapon that excels at thrusting attacks.”
My theory on is that the old gods might be the giants in caelid, the mountaintops and the eternal cities, who in my opinion were the creators of the black stone ruins, the giant's forge, the lands of shadows forge, and the golems. also the pattern on the blade is similar to the black knives' pattern, so maybe the knifeprint was a form of rudimental smithscript.
"Now watch how Gough hunts dragons"
10:25 Midra only became Lord as a reaction to our "foolishness!!" and was subsequently killed by us before going on his wanton rampage. Up until now, he's struggled against the flame at Nanaya's behest and fought against succombing to madness, succombing to becoming the Lord. When we enter, his hands are on the sword struggling to keep up his will to not descend into madness and rip his own head off.... not until, of course, our "foolishness" pushes him over, that the world is no longer worth struggling to protect. We push him beyond the brink and he decided he had "endured long enough" and rips out the great sword and accepts and embraces the nothingingness of chaos.
I like the idea that the sun visage of the dung eaters chestplate and of the furnaxe golems might be conected. Cause the one from the furnace golems seems to be conected to the Hornsent and the Omens seem to be like a remnant of Hornsent past for the golden order. Of course the Hornsent fear said visage but it isnt like the dungeater is the most sane person or someone who wouldnt say no to something grotesct that people fear
Thanks for sticking with the game lore and not comparing this to real life. So many of these lore channels can't seem to understand that these are just pixels on a screen at the end of the day.
Outer Gods are connected to different types of fire: the fell flame, the ghost flame, blood flame, frenzy flame (now that I think of it, it’s weird that Rot is the only one w/out fire). The Base Serpent having fire of its own supports it being an outer god.
Isn't Scarlet Rot *killed* by fire?
There seem to be some outer gods whose power and subjects fear fire, and other outer gods that wield it. Perhaps this is another form of Duality that is present throughout the story of Elden Ring.
Blood flame is a mixing of blood magic of the formless mother and the fire magic of the crucible/Fell god.
@@ramoraid im pretty sure formless mother stuff isnt blood flame jus blood the flame part comes from omens igniting their blood which is why morgott can do it aswell
Red/Blue feather branched sword talismans linked to the Cerulean Coast and Hidden Grave perhaps?
I theorize the Base Serpent Outer God is actually the snake that ate Rykard. Both of their spells deal with fire, with the magma sorceries all requiring faith, suggesting that they likely have a divine source. Additionally, an Outer God obsessed with devouring gods would be the perfect fit for a crusade, which would suggest why Marika gave him the mission of destroying the Hornsent.
Do remember that some of the God Devouring Serpents abilities are a result of Rykard's influence.
Every time anyone mentions the One Great and all of the lore we get through Hyetta and Shabriri, I wish for the ability to reach through the screen so I can ask them "but why do you trust them to be telling you the truth?"
The Frenzied Flame questline implies they're manipulating you from the moment Hyetta appears wearing the face of Irina, who most new players will recognize as the NPC who suffered a tragic death. Shabriri entices you with the chance to save Melina. Vyke is proof this isn't the first time they've used this spiel to manipulate a promising Tarnished into becoming a Lord of Frenzied Flame.
We only hear of the One Great from their lips. For all we know, they're making it all up so we think the Frenzied Flame ending is the natural progression of things like Dark Souls' Age of Dark. And in my eyes, the new lore from the DLC makes the One Great look even less credible.
We should take every word from the mouths of Frenzied Flame agents with a truckload of salt.
You mean the guy laughing like a madman as he screams about chaos taking the world is untrustworthy? Next you'll tell me that people don't just randomly offer candy out of the back of their van with good intentions.
It's difficult because all other viewpoints that disagree with the Golden Order were actively suppressed and destroyed. If there was other evidence, anything that could vaguely ligitimise the Frenzied Flame or even just portray it in a less negative light, would be very difficult to find at best.
In the end, I'm not so sure it matters. To me, the Frenzied Flame is the other half of the Greater Will: destruction is a necessary counterpart to life (otherwise you get cancer). The whole game is about opposites, balance, cycles, and what happens when they're disrupted. In a certain perspective, the rotting cancerous mutated life of the Lands Between has been missing the 'death' part of the cycle for too long.
the idea of frenzied madness is that its like a manifestation of forbidden knowledge, so its possible that what they say could have truth to it, but it being deciphered through a medium that can't tell the whole picture, or what they they sounds like lunacy but could be truths that are just so out there that the rational mind would think its illogical.
@@shadixyt I can't recall anything linking the nature of the Frenzied Flame to forbidden knowledge. *Knowing about the Frenzied Flame* is forbidden, as in the Golden Order suppresses knowledge of it, but that has nothing to do with the nature of the Flame beyond how dangerous and heretical it is.
It's nature has far more to do with madness, despair, and burning everything away than any form of manifestation of forbidden knowledge.
Why should we trust hyetta? because they are haters, and they wouldn't lie to make GW looks good like "the reason why we don't have to stray freezing outside is because GW made this house for us to live. yeah fuk that guy. we never want a warm place. we want to be freeze to death outside. let's burn down this house"
Aside from what she said, there're other NPCs and narators that imply that GW create life and the universe, so i don't see a reason why the game would tells us a fake infomation which we have no way to prove it false.
13:25 that callout LMAO
It was kind of a stupid callout, honestly. Unless I'm missing context, that guy was specifically talking about bloodborne. Not all fromsoft games. So there is either missing context or madluigi is just butt hurt he was told he was wrong and just put this in to try and get a gotcha. But honestly, it kind of failed if that's the case.
The furnace visage also has 8 round (tightly curled) horns that mimic the 8 vortexes seen around the fire giants eye
Also, I don't think that its fair to say that Miquella's eternal youth isn't a curse from an outer god because theres no mention of a "God of Eternal Youth".
But the way I see it, is this curse seems to be a way of limiting his full potential. The haligtree never grew to fruition, his never got to save Malenia, he never got to fulfill his oath with Radahn (cause we kinda crashed their wedding). Miquella also seemed rather keen on using the erdtree to cast aside his empyrean flesh like Ranni did during the night of the black knives and to gain access to the Realm of Shadows. Marika really wanted these lands to be hidden away, given that it shows her origins and things she is shameful of, and she most likely fears the two fingers using Miquella to replace her, I see enough of a motive for her to curse her own child, limiting what he could accomplish. If the events of the black night didnt occur leading to the shattering and Marika ending up as her broken self, there is a chance that Miquella would never surpass her.
Another potential culprit could be the two fingers themselves, since they are heavily connected to the "Empyrean Body" the demigods seem to have (It's kind of like a flesh prison, hence why Miquella and Ranni desired to remove it). Miquella turned away from the two fingers after he realized that they could not save Malenia from the rot, so he began research into ways to repell the outer gods with unalloyed gold. The fact that he doubted they power would put him on their list. Since Marika hid away the realm of shadows, which was beneficial for the two fingers since it also hid the fact that they in fact are not speaking to the greater will and are actually just selfish liars, the fact that Miquella was prying into the past might have led them to curse his body to prevent him from uncovering anything.
Those are my two culprits, and while they still aren't outer gods themselves, they have been influenced at one point by the greater will even if it is absent. Even if its no longer in the picture, who's to say that the fingers, who are going about their own agenda, aren't playing their roles in the greater will's story.
Also wouldn't it be funny if the greater will, was actually the devs/creators of this story? And those other erdtree's in the elden beast boss fight are actually other player's worlds? Each erdtree is a direct copy, and each realm is as well. And since the game was published, the devs are technically absent (aside from dlc releases and patches).
Random thought, the golden order who recieved knowledge from the fingers operate on two fundamentals
1causality 2 regression
The greater will caused the causality- the fracture
And the flame of frenzy desires to unify everything (regression)
doesnt really tell us anything new i just thought it was cool
I really liked that theory too before the dlc but proposed it on discords and they pointed out two major holes: 1) frenzied flame and Greater Will existed during the crucible eras. The laws are built under the world logic of golden order. The laws are fundamental to how the lands between function under the golden order and were different laws during other eras. 2) causality is the explanation of everything being interlinked meaning that if the demigods don't work together they'd put themselves in a gridlock (which was fine until Ranni made the causality destroy Miquellas prophecy of may the best demigod become lords and gods of the world)
LastProtagenist translated the outer god into Japanese and concluded that the Kanji used pointed to Kami("gods") outside the pantheon. It understandable Gods of Death, Blood, Rot, Frenzy, and Fell would be not be accepted in the Golden Order (though starting to think Frenzy and Fell may be the same being, by the Furnace Visage, and I was told Midra was the one that introduced the Forge Ruins, though have not found that connecting evidence yet).
Midra has nothing to do with the Forges.
I just noticed that the hornsent in Midra's manse have bloodstains in their lap area. It looks like they were all given the seedbed curse.
Dung eater: "uh oh, poopy."
I was willing to overlook your Romina pronunciation but Placidusax really sent me over the edge
Would love to see ER2 or another DLC go pure cosmic horror, one can dream!
I am pretty sure that Midra was not a lord until he pulled the sword out of his own body and fully embraced his madness. When we kill him, he WAS a lord, had we not killed him then and there, Midra would likely have destroyed the Shadow Lands in his madness.
18:10 just where the hell is that place??
4:05 i couldnt understand anything you explained.... I was too distracted by chef owen wilson XD
13:25 something something wet nurse
I would argue that Ranni's ending possibly leads to Bloodborne, where the Moon's influence as an Outer God is shown more greatly.
Just thinking: I'd be cautious about giving the Greater Will too much credit. Considering it is venerated in the religious order and dogma of the Lands Between, despite Queen Marika being "the one true god" per Golden Order teaching, an inflation in the stature of the Greater Will in the cosmic order is bound to occur. There are many Outer Gods. The Greater Will is surely a powerful one, but as all the different deities are meddling and messing around for power, perhaps the Greater Will just had the most successful methodology (it understands how to take land, whereas the alien minds of many other deities does not)?
In both, introducing Matyr and the Elden Ring into the Lands Between in order to convert them to be a part of it's domain to establish its dominance. Getting the biggest piece of the pie there would be enough, thus the Greater Will would turn to other matters.
It is the hubris of a mortal to think the cosmic order gods would only have on their mind the well-being of mortals and how mortal affairs go, after all. Do you stop to think of all the ants living in any land you'd claim, and feel like checking up on them unless they give you reason to? What if you had control of the ants and directed them that-a-way? In much the same way, the Greater Will getting the biggest piece of the pie in the Lands Between likely was enough. The quality of the life of the beings it brought under its sway with that land is of no real significance, as seen by how despite what ending we choose the Guidance of Grace flows. Mortals concocting beliefs of no consequence or truth. Thus, the Lands Between would exactly that. The Lands between the Greater Will's lands. To us, a world. To a god? Just a pebble in their holdings.
I'd also note that, as shown by the Greater Will's conquest, it seems to require an investment of strength or power from the Outer Gods to claim lands. The GW invested two of it's children plus the Elden Ring. For the other gods, it might not be worth the investment to overturn that, and thus they maintain minimal presences. As the gods are in direct contest and conflict, it makes sense that too great an investment into something can leave vulnerabilities that get exploited elsewhere. The Frenzied flame perhaps being an exception (due to an implied personal vendetta), but it is not at all a trustworthy narrator (no reason to neither lie nor tell the truth - destruction cares little for either except as a ploy to get such to occur.)
Plus, the goal the Frenzied flame has of not so much taking over realms but destroying them, puts it at odds with just about every other god, as if it burns the land then there is nothing to be claimed. Again, checkmating it and ensuring it doesn't do too much means gods investing power might not care to compete with the GW for the Lands Between due to doing so possibly losing the whole dominion if it allows Frenzied Flame to exploit the shifts.
As to why the gods would care about pieces of land like they are playing to a mortal mind a confusing game of cosmic monopoly: depends on the god. And what they want out of it. The Formless mother for example from a mortal lens seems to crave wounds. Thus, investments and manifesting in places take a different form, as it's not about the land but about getting those wounds. Each god wants something different out of it. What it grants, does or gives the god likely is somewhere in the ball court of cosmic deities, and thus I can't really say.
Guidance of Grace has most likely nothing to do with the Greater Will, its Marikas doing, proof for that is that the guidance doesnt disappear if you choose to become frenzied.
It deserves the credit because it created the universe and living beings. What a power could other outer gods do, if no living beings existed?
@@MKsukkiiMiso If it created the universe and all living beings. Which is the whole crux of what I was saying.
I want to clarify that the GW, as far as we know, wasn't worshipped in Marika's Golden Order. It actually seems like very few people actually know what the GW is, you can count the characters that actually mention it with two hands. Marika was the central figure of it all, she was the one true god in the truth she promoted (there can't be another god). Guidance of graces is also given (or taken) by Marika. With all evidence we get, not just by Ymir's dialogue and Hyetta's/3 fingers' dialogue, but also items descriptions from eras before Marikas order, it does point to the obvious conclussion that the GW is greater than any outer god, and possibly the one creator deity of the setting. That and iirc in the japanese text the GW is referred different than any of the other gods, afaik it isn't even called a god, it's just assumed it is greater, that and (apparently?) it uses kanji that generally is associated with the big G god of christianity, tho I can't vouch for that one cause I don't know japanese.
In SmoughTown's video on the Outer Gods, he makes a compelling case that Outer Gods are more like Kami, conceptual manifestations of the elements they represent. The "outer" comes from each of these elements being disconnected from the Elden Ring after the removal of the Rune of Death, thus making them "outside" the current natural order. This is based on the original name of the Outer Gods in Japanese (sotonaru), which merely refers to something outside of a system. And thematically, this makes sense. Bloodshed (Mother of Truth), decomposition (Scarlet Rot), death (Outer God of Death), and destruction (Fell God) all relate to death.
I agree with your opinion that the Greater Will and the Frenzied Flame are beyond this and that the Greater Will introduced separation and differentiation, inevitably creating a counter-force in the form of the Frenzied Flame. At some early point in history, the Greater Will later sent the Mother of Fingers and the Elden Beast to implement order and structure to the lands between. I think its fair to say that before this, the primordial Lands Between were a chaotic soup of elemental influence, with Kami influencing nature like the shifting colors of an oil-slick. We know that the Elden Beast, and by extension the Greater Will, did not care that Marika removed the Rune of Death, and only intervened after she shattered it. This implies that the Greater will only cares that there is AN order and has no regard for the shape that order takes. Kami still have some ability to influence the world, but the Elden Ring likely restricts them, and the more "whole" the Ring is the more restricted they are.
My hot take with regard to all of this is that the first inheritor of the Elden Ring, the origin of the crucible, and the first creator of a unified natural order was Placidusex's Dragon God. When we first see him, Placidusex's heads formed a Spiral, resembling the iconography of the crucible. The Hornsent revere horns as a sign of divine blessing, and the most naturally horned creatures we see are Dragons. The Divine Beast Dancing Lion shares many features dragons, and the real-world inspiration for it is a dragon itself. And though a negative does not prove a positive, we never see any evidence of another god after the Dragon God disappears, nor another form of divine tree. I think it was at this point that the Mother of Fingers stopped receiving messages from the Greater Will. If her job was to choose and guide prospective gods, then the job would be over once one was chosen.
I think the Hornsent cultivated saints to build the Gate of Divinity in order to create their replacement god. They may have even succeeded. In the Shadow of the Erdtree intro, we see Marika pulling divinity out of a carcass- this could be Marika literally stealing godhood from the corpse of a defeated ascended Hornsent.
The base serpent may be connected to the cult of the devouring serpent as well
On the subject of the Scarlet Rot, I always theorized what exactly it is. Similar to poison, it seems like it is a type of infection. But where as poison is an external body invading your immune system, scarlet rot would be as if the iron in your blood is rusting. At least, that's what I like to hypothesize.
@MadLuigi I disagree with the premise that the Greater Will is somehow actually more powerful/greater than the other Outer Gods. It is simply the Outer God that has possession of the world currently, it definitely seems like before Marika, it wasn’t nearly as ascendantly powerful over the Lands between, as the Death Rite Birds Outer God ruled death beforehand, the mushroom crown’s lore hints at an age of rot and at one point it was either fully incarnated on the lands between and was sealed, or they mistook its envoy beast for it and sealed that, creating the lake of rot. Everybody, including the hornsent were terrified by the fell god of the giants, and the the moon has been up to something since the Nox worshipped it as the black moon before it was shattered into the memory stones and then started appearing to carian royalty as the full or dark moon. I do love hearing other people’s theories thoigh :-) always give your videos a like.
Disagreed. Not only hsve we heard in the creation story in the base game that treated the Greater Will as the actual creator of the universe who split the One Great (and before anyone tries the "that story is unreliable" argument…it’s coming from the Three Fingers. It’s enemies. You don’t spread propaganda making your enemy sound more awesome than they are lol), I’d say Ymir’s dialogue points in a similar direction. Some description or other said it granted sentience to beasts, if I remember right. And it was worshipped by the earliest civilization we know, the dragons. They had an Elden Lord and depictions of the Elden Ring, which we know was sent down by the Greater Will.
I’m not sure why so many refuse to accept the simple facts the game is stating. The Greater Will is capital G God. Created everything. Then for some reason abandoned creation. That’s it. God is, seemingly, gone.
As for the Outer Gods, the term is misleading and used by the English localization, not Japanese. Don’t blame anyone for this one though. That’s on the localization team. Outer God makes them sound like these Lovecraftian entities from a higher plane. Like Bloodborne shit. But they’re just Kami in Japanese. Spirits that embody different parts of nature. They’re lower g gods.
Nah, the greater will is still around. It just turned its back on the lands between after it gave up on the demigods repairing the elden ring. Thats why it extends its grace to the tarnished. The game narration directly tells us this at the beginning. Marika does not control grace (especially not being currently imprisoned), its the greater will.
@@rwberger6 Possible. Or that’s merely the interpretation of the Two Fingers, who are guided by Metyr, who we are told was broken long before any of this crap.
@@abdieljove2011Nice to someone of the same opinion that is more than likely correct
Why do people reject it?
Because the fact that the GW is not only the capital G God of the setting, but has also abandoned its own creation loooong ago puts a hard stop to their fantasies of "working against the Greater Will".
The Greater Will needs to be a lesser deity, vulnerable to some degree, and interested/active in the world for their ideas to work.
People want a god you can fight against, like Shin Megami Tensei's YHWV or the Greek and Norse gods from God of War, but what they are getting is an actual "Abrahamic-coded, Aristotelian First Cause" God with deistic tendencies that said "peace out" to the universe long ago and left everyone to their devices.
Every time I look up new lore on the Twinbird/Deathbird god: DID YOU KNOW DEATH USED TO BE BURNED IN GHOSTFLAME??
Great, thank you game, always very helpful
I’m of the opinion snakes came first. Then dragons, perhaps under the mother of fingers (acting as the Elden beast does for merika radagon.) and at this time it is my belief the plan of the greater will began. Evolving limbs then fingeres onto its subject to better enect its golden will. But I belief the chaos of the beasts, was uncontrollable taimed only by sarosh. Who became king of the beasts in the time between the dragons and before merika. At this time too the hornsent occupied most of the lands between, collecting artifacts and momentous from all its previous cultures. Perhaps this age was under the formless mother. Creating a tower to the heavens made of pots, filled with people. But one person. A woman, refused.
If the abyss represents all the bass needs of biology, the serpent is the predator brain. Who I belive merika seduced and killed at the Devine gate. The snake like madness or decay is unavoidable.
In my own observation, i think there's a high chance Placidusax's god was that of the Gloam Eyed Queen. Because for one the entirety of Farum Azula is a massive mausoleum, primarily guarded by undead creatures, secondly he's the Elden Lord before the age of the Erdtree, which we know was in time of her reign.
Given how the Twin Bird served as vassal of the outergod of death, it's very its purpose to the Gloam Eyed Queen was the same as that of the Elden Beast to Marika. Perhaps after its Empyrean died, the Twinbird fled, leaving the injured Elden Lord to forever wait for its return
Given how things played out, im starting to think that it was Marika who manipulated events to usurp the Gloam Eyed Queen. While we're not sure why Bayle sought to usurp his lord, the injury he caused to Placidusax very likely saw him too weaken to properly defend his Empyrean, or to defend her at all. Then there's the Gate of Divinity, from what we see in the trailer, it is not a relic that has already existed for a long time, but rather freshly made structure built from countless flayed corpses, a practice we have known the Gloam Eyed Queen for in the base game. The fact she never used it suggest one of two things: She was betrayed and killed at the last moment, or an Empyrean was the last component to finish the creation of the gate (which may explain why Marika was around til the very last moment). Considering we don't exactly know what Marika pulled out from her corpse, it could either be the Elden Ring (which supports the first possibility), or her essence (which supports the second)
I find it rather poetic that he was Lord in her age considering his feature and immortality. The Elden Lord in the age of death, was one who is the perfect presentation of the crucible of life, protected from flow of time and death
8:02 luigis mansion
Here is a little thing to grease the gears, maybe the snakes that Messmer and Rykard have are the equivalent of the abyssal serpent's "fingers", like the Greater Wills Two fingers
Oh and a side thought that is probably not true: I thought that the serpent found in Bonny village could be Messmer’s father, origin of his serpent. Not sure if right, but hey, I haven’t heard anyone give a good enough explanation of why that’s there.
These is a channel for adults and children I'm grateful for all your videos they give me so much wonder in my head
the giants at the peak were impaled by messmer’s spear, so he definitely came to the lands between and fought wars there. when he moves to the land of shadows, his past, along with rellana and the ones who follow him, so in his absence, his deeds were probably misattributed to someone else, someone who’s a good fighter and is also a redhead, i guess
he and his serpent might have given rykard the idea of allowing a serpent to consume him and grow big, or it was another serpent entirely. in bonny village, there is a molt for a serpent that doesn’t really match messmer’s, but is more similar to eiglay (if that’s the name of the giant serpent in the town of volcano manor)
my impression, and i’m probably wrong, is that the snake possessing messmer is not similar to the rot possessing malenia or the fell god possessing the fire giant. it’s more like reptiles being cold blooded and prefer heat. get it? there are a bundle of serpents everywhere in volcano manor. the rykard serpent treads lava as if it was nothing. the godskin closer to being a serpent, the nobles, wield fire with much more proficiency.
so the abyssal serpents possessed messmer because he was born with a warm fire. snakes like fire, snakes like messmer. a happy ending for everyone.
what curioused me is why was messmer born with that particular fire? because his fire can burn down a special tree. the giant’s flame can also burn a special tree, so did the fell god try to sponsor its powers to messmer? did marika put the serpents in messmer to “swallow” or dampen this power somehow, to prevent him from becoming a threat to her erdtree?
It’s not mesmers spear though. It’s the blood thorns people it’s stated that they fought and hate the giants
We don’t know if Mesmer fire is special, his fire could be used to burn the Erdtree not just the fog of Enir ilm
It’s also says melina is Mesmer brother or that’s what it implies. (Mesmer remembrance) Melina and Mesmer my be using the same “fire”
I think Nanaya was holding the spine of Midra because Midra doesn't look like a hornsent, no horns. We can also see the way midra looks with his spine being replaced by the sword and when he removes it he has no spine therefore no head. Nanaya also told Midra to "endure", if she was trying to create a new frenzy lord then she would've encouraged Midra to give in to avoid the suffering. Holding the flame within himself caused him to become weak and not become a true lord of frenzy.
If Metyr was the Mother of all fingers, which we know she was, she also was the mother of the three fingers. So somehow the Greater Will and Frenzied Flame are more connected than we thought. Cause I can't see every three finger bein like "Yep, no, I'm going with the other outer god thats not our grandparent! And you can't stop me mom!" Mostly cause I feel like they are a hivemind of sorts. Clearly they have some sort of free will cause they can lie, maybe Metyr sought out a new God to serve through her fingers? Idk but there is definitely something we're missing about the greater wills connection to the frenzied flame and the three fingers.
It is definitely telling that only the flame of frenzy has it's own fingers.
You forgot about the Dark Moon that once loomed above Nokstella. He's the outer god that Ranni replaced the Greater will with
Im pretty sure the star dust thing ymir is referring to literally how we exist, being the result of material that was launched out of the sun that cooled off and formed earth.
The flame of frenzy is basically the polar oppossite version of the greater will. It is chaos to its order, the three "missing" fingers to its two, it puts souls into corpses whereas the greater will grants rebirth, and it wants to return all to one while the greater will creates division and spreads.
the first time i saw Messmers phase 2 cutscene, i didnt know it was a seal of Marika that he plucked from his eye.
i immediately just made a connection to the Fell God of the giants
in the Fire Giant bossfight, the giant tears off his leg as an offering for the Fell God, i just thought Messmer sacefices his eye in exchange for the fire of the Fell God.
After all, Messmers fire was a motive we saw time and time again throught the DLC, with Messmers Embers and the Furnace Golems.
I know you meant GW as greater will, but my mind instantly thought you meant games workshop and that threw me for a loop
I would even argue, taking other souls games as a starting point, that the Greater Will is dead and hence stopped communicating.
That's the scary part to me, the God that created everything can die, and did, what's left for the rest of 'us' Tarnished who are a spec on this story?
Criminally slept on love the vids
"I, too, am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein."
"We, too, are children of the Greater Will."
"It is said that after sounding the hanging bell there... One's fate will be guided by the stars."
"[The Moon] was merely the closest of the celestial bodies. Nothing more."
I infer that Ymir doesn't think that the Moon is necessarily a completely mundane object, as he is a glintsone sorcerer and highly values the celestial bodies in a mystical and divine sense, particularly the stars above all else. I think perhaps what he focuses on is the grander perspective, rather than a few incidental supernatural forces that he views as unimportant by comparison. The Moon(s) may be sapient entities, or nonsapient but powerful forces, but in any case Ymir views them as the closest, not the most interesting or valuable.
My head canon is that the Outer Gods are the Marikas of other realms that the GW influences. We know that the GW doesn't really care, as long as there is an order to speak of, and so doesn't really care one way or the other how the gods under it try to spread their control across the realms. The Frenzied Flame may be separate, or is in its own way an order that the GW doesn't care about. I also think the moon (and stars and the primeval current) are natural influences but not sentient wills of their own.
When you mentioned the buds, I was reminded how the ancestral followers worship budding life. Perhaps the church of the bud believed something similar before the rot.
Bro I made a list exactly like this exactly in that order & phrasing & I was ready to look into all of them separately😭 thanks
There's a diary page you can find in Midra's Manse describing an encounter an Aging Untouchable that resulted in him being corrupted by the frenzied flame. A huge and direct pointer to him being an unwilling host/lord to the flame
24:07 i think what Ymir meant by that is that he wanted the moons to be something more, something like the Greater Will. Given his obssesion with the fingers, it could be implied he wanted to find a greater power to which he would become a major agent
I think the greater will is just like every other outer gid, it's just that it was the one who divided the life inside the crucible and probably was the outer god regent since then
Regarding Mesmer's snake, looking into the mythology it's insbired by could help to understand. The myth i'm reffering to is Ophiuchus and Asclepius (yep, the winged snake that symbolize medicine).
Something interesting you may have missed and might throw a wrench in things with the formless mother is that underneath the start of the final legacy dungeon is an un damaged statue holding a revered spirit ash. This statue’s head is a skull with horns sticking out of it on one side. I’m not entirely sure what horns really mean in the dlc, but I feel like this detail changes something
5:03 the opening cutscene narration says the Shattering, the war of the demigods, led to the abandonment by the Greater Will.
the moons are directly connected to rellana and rennala, there used to be 2 moons in the lands between but when rellana left her moon accompanied her. reasons why we see a shadow of a 2nd moon from that high rise where we marry ranni.
The existence of Outer Gods implies the existence of Inner, Over and Under Gods!
Quick note for the lanterns, they are able to take damage from destined death without parrying, but it takes forever to kill them that way and you have to be really good at dodging the grab and surviving frenzy.
7:20 or up is kinda cool, it reminds me of the Greek god Dionysus who is the god of Wine and Madness, like grapes and madness
14:16 tumbleweed photobomb.
19:48 Also there are depictions of the fire giants on the furnace golem's legs. And the fire giant has the fell god within it.