Analogue Nt Mini Review - FPGA NES Console Also Plays Sega Master System, Coleco and More!
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- Опубликовано: 10 фев 2017
- The Analogue Nt Mini is a NES clone console that costs a small fortune but just got very interesting due to a "jailbreak" firmware that adds additional systems and SD card support for game roms. See gameplay footage here: lon.tv/0gs84
VIDEO INDEX:
00:40 - Hardware overview
04:22 - Gameplay example with NES cartridge
06:10 - Compared to RetroUSB AVS - 1080p and screen accuracy
11:03 - Controller latency
14:00 - Jailbreak: Loading NES games from SD Card vs. cartridge
14:39 - Jailbreak: Sega Master System (SMS) core
16:55 - Jailbreak: ColecoVision Core
17:54 - Jailbreak: Game Gear Core
18:47 - Core status, Flash Cart compatibility, Game Genie feature
20:14 - Final thoughts: Analogue NT Mini Vs. RetroUSB AVS
Links:
All referenced videos in one convenient playlist!
lon.tv/vpi6c
My Life in Gaming Resolution Explanation:
• retroUSB AVS NES :: RG...
Kevtris' FPGA announcement and download links:
lon.tv/v7tkx
I had no desire to purchase this as I was happy with my RetroUSB AVS that I reviewed a few months ago. But now that there's a jailbreak from the author of the original FPGA core this just got a whole lot more interesting to me.
The reason is that this console can now play more than just NES games. As of this recording it supports the Sega Master System, ColecoVision and Game Gear with more systems to come. The jailbreak also allows for rom files to be booted directly from an SD card vs. a cartridge - even when running NES games.
I also discovered that its native 1080p output resolution offers a more accurate representation of how NES games should look given that their pixels were stretched on old CRT TVs.
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VIDEO INDEX:
00:40 - Hardware overview
04:22 - Gameplay example with NES cartridge
06:10 - Compared to RetroUSB AVS - 1080p and screen accuracy
11:03 - Controller latency
14:00 - Jailbreak: Loading NES games from SD Card vs. cartridge
14:39 - Jailbreak: Sega Master System (SMS) core
16:55 - Jailbreak: ColecoVision Core
17:54 - Jailbreak: Game Gear Core
18:47 - Core status, Flash Cart compatibility, Game Genie feature
20:14 - Final thoughts: Analogue NT Mini Vs. RetroUSB AVS
Even after all of these videos, i still appreciate the transparency statement at the beginning. Nice to know when reviews are real and not just elaborate ads
A very thorough video, thanks Lon!
I really, really, really want one if these so bad :)
I also love my auto she'll checker more :)
This is pretty cool. I got the high def nes kit which I love too!
The NT Mini is a solid investment if you want the most versatile FPGA based hardware clone. The AVS uses a smaller FPGA, but otherwise the NES aspect of both units are focus on hardware compatibility, something that NOAC based clones can't do.
That said, The NT Mini is way too expensive for what you get, and I have a hard time reconciling the price of this device with how much the parts must cost. The difference between the FPGA's in the AVS and the NT Mini couldn't be more than $50. But hey, it probably will last forever. If either unit could do 4K today or 8K tomorrow I think it would be worth it just to be able to play it with no latency without going through the TV's inevitably poor upscaler.
And no, a RPi is not a good software game console emulator at all. All the ARM based emulation devices have latency due to video buffering, scaling and input polling that FPGA NES will not have. (I'd argue that the Raspberry Pi and similar Android software based emulators are worse than trying to emulate it in software on an overkill PC.) Use the 240p suite to see how bad the latency is on your choice of emulator or hardware.
Investment is not the word to use. This is an extreme luxury for very little return over emulation. Waste of money imo.
+natetheD The return for some people is going to mean the difference between being worthless (emulation) to being a perfect solution (NT Mini). Any time and money that I spent on emulation would be wasted time and money.
hardware clone isnt the right word to use . This is not a hardware clone - as it has none of the original hardware, or clones of the hardware - it is clearly implementing emulation given the fact that it can run cores.
The predecessor (Analogue NT) used an original NES CPU/PPU, while this is a FPGA, so for all intents it has "cloned" the hardware in a FPGA, by replicating the actual electronic signals, so it effectively is compatible with everything, where as previous NOAC clones were identical to each other and all had the same defects, thus buying any version of the Retron 1/2/3 made no improvement to the NES part.
Software-based solutions like the Retron5, Retrofreak, RetroPie/LibRetro make no attempt to run software accurately, because they didn't develop the emulators, hell in some cases the Raspberry-Pi/ARM-cpu based attempts are so extremely poor that they ship broken, and these are the "best" attempts. There are more LibRetro-based devices out there with no cartridge slots that ship with only a few working games despite what is advertised.
FPGA-based solutions go beyond software emulation, they actually produce identical output to the original hardware. Software emulation can only produce "good enough"
At any rate the NT Mini is probably what people want if they want to emulate the NES and all 8-bit computers. Personally I'd wait for a SNES-level version before I'd be willing to invest that much money, as 8-bit games are fun and all, but they're not the best Nostalgia value since millennials didn't grow up with them, they only really appeal to Generation-X.
So many ways of playing nes and it feels like going old school with an unmodded nes is the only true way of playing. I modded my nes for rgb and use a framemeister. Adds a frame or so of lag but seemed the best way to get a HD picture while still maintaining the guts of the nes since everything still works and mainly amps/piggybacks off the existing chips. I was tempted by the mini (both ver 1 and 2) and hdmi nes mod but sound is emulated and some of the filtering and scaling makes it feel more like emulation than it should. I did preorder a avs for a hdmi lag free solution plus the possibility of lightgun game support (I know it won't be exactly the same "if" they figure it out). Not sure what I think of the jailbreak on the mini with other console support. I know this isn't 100% emulation and they can match the hardware performance of the original console but this is just making it feel like more of a retron 5 experience but something that plays correctly with both original hardware look as well as emulator visuals. If only the avs had 1080p and it would be perfect. Keeps it simple, built in genie codes, no fuss settings, no jailbreak to be a multi system emulator, and hard to beat the price. One article I read said the mini can output 4K natively via a upcoming patch. Not sure I believe it. If that was true you would think they would rush that feature out since many of us scoff at the current price. As much as I knock it I still think it is a good product with all the features and output options. Thanks for comparing to the avs and being fair. On paper of course the mini wins. Just wish there was side by side video of the gameplay.
Lon.TV could you share the model number of your Samsung 4K TV that you referenced to in your video. I am looking for a better TV for my AVS.
Thank you again for all your testing and very informative videos!
I'd like to see an FPGA SNES console come out
Nutts Corner the same company that makes this is making just such a console. It's called Super Nt and it's A LOT more affordable than this thing.
Great Video! You show Minecraft as an example on most machines you review. Graphics aside, what is the best Pentium, Celeron and Atom processor for the best Minecraft performance? Thanks! (Three top processors, one of each)
I know you didn't ask me, sorry then. now it depends if u want to play Microsoft's C++ version, then about any like haswell and below will play it, the thing is u need with best included graphics if u gonna use it, now about original java minecraft, that thing likes ram and cpu very much so yea with that u can buy cpu with best cpu and ram u can get in ur budget and I u wont use shaders, u can pretty much use any integrated graphics just fine
Great review Lon, if you are interested in FPGA and retro you should take a look at MIST FPGA computer its a fraction of this price and already has many retro cores implemented
Yes I have one - my issue with it is that it doesn't have an HD output- lots of compatibility issues with modern displays.
Great review
Awesome review.
I'm confused as to how 1080 is more accurate scaling for NES games. NES natively output a height of 240 pixels. 720p is 3 times that height, whereas 1080p is 4.5 times, so 1080 is non-integer scaling.
Lon.Tv, I'm super curious, have you compared the button latency and performance of a rom versus a cartridge? Is there any difference?
Hey Lon, can I run one more question by you? If you play Roms on this NT Mini (which I just noticed is sold out on Analogue's website) will the Roms play with as little button latency as popping a cartridge in? I would assume that the latency is as good as the cart since it's all running through the FPGA, but since this thing isn't cheap I just wanted to be 100% sure and you seem like the guy to ask :)
I might get a NT Mini if the price is right. I have the Super NT and am enjoying playing my original SNES carts on it. Wow the sound of the games is better than ive ever heard. The only thing that comes close that is how games sound on emulation being played on PC.
Just a quick note, neither the PowerPak or the Everdrive N8 support save states that emulators do. Games with battery backup capabilities save data to the card (Compact Flash or SD) for those flash carts. Flashcarts like the SD2SNES or the MEGA Everdrive X7 support save states similar to emulators.
Sorry, I guess the Everdrive N8 does support Save States now. It initially did not. And it seems that SD2SNES does not support save states. I thought it did but it does not. The PowerPak however still does not support save states.
Analogue released DAC recently, it looks ok, but I can't tell for sure if the analog video output will be of adequate quality for us retrogaming communtity. Is the hdmi to RGB scart - Digital to analog - conversion decent enought to compare with a native real hardware of snes / sega mega drive consoles? I was hesitated to pick up a mega sg or a super nt analogue consoles because they lack a RGB video output for my CRT TVs. Maybe this is the right time?
Still, I have my doubts about how the RGB video quality will look like. I use good quality consumer CRT tvs (I have five of them). I wonder why the mega sg and the super nt analogue consoles are much cheaper than nt mini console (500$). First the RGB video output was cut off to lower the production costs. Then, an additional DAC circuit board is advertised to fulfill retrogaming community expactations. I still have my doubts, I don’t see many youtube videos with the DAC connected with analogue consoles to a CRT tv setup.
I have a feeling that we are in the middle of a massive CRT tv production. China already manufacture their own CRT TVs, but they lack the specs of the correct resolution, refresh rate etc to meet our retrogaming community requirements. I know in USA is very difficult to pick up a CRT TV, but here in Europe there are plenty of them in used condition.
I feel sorry for the next generation kids who they hadn't a chance to play games in a CRT TV :(
anyone else have issues finding. the Kevtris Cores? I went to the download link and it only gives the NES & NSF player cores, other cores dont seem to be there...
where can I get sms bios files? I would love to play bubble bobble but it freezes on 7th level every time?
Where is the best place to find Coleco ROMs? I’d love to play Venture and Mouse Trap and Mr. Do again.
for all those who may see this - this is not a hardware clone. an example of a hardware clone would be something that used a zilog 80 (z80 cpu) and a common yamaha sound chip - and was sold with that configuration - and then some takes and gets a zilog cpu, from any manufacturer, and pairs it with a sound chip that is made based on the exact implementation of the original yamaha chip - since that data has been released to the public - and then runs an exact copy of the software that ran on the original device, through the new one .
this is still emulating , its just using higher end hardware and a more efficient method to do so.
It's more like hardware *simulation* rather than hardware cloning or hardware emulation.
I always go with 4X vertical, it's 960 pixels, very close to de 1080 of the screen.
Can you have your game launch immediately when you turn the console on? That is one of the appeals of retro gaming for me, no loading or console menus.
+Nathan Riddle yes for cartridge games
Thanks for letting me know :)
Playing Master System games with a NES controller? Yes, please.
Really cool! I would get one but I have enough consoles as it is lol. I will just use my raspberry pi 3 with retropie.
It would have been nice to be able to save your screen settings for each game so one wouldn't have to fiddle around to make things look correct...
With FPGA in mind, i was thinking, if chip manufactors such as intel & amd want it, they can decide to only produce FPGA chips and put their own software on it sothat each chip can be reprogrammed to talk with eachother and garanteer the full experience on eachother's system by simply reflashing it.
Rather then using cpu intensive emulation.
And I dunno what you mean by "distortion" on the AVS... there is no distortion at all if you have the Horizontal stretch set correctly...
I came here with high hopes that this beauty would run Master System cartridges :( to much love for nintendo aaaall the time :( Great video tho :) thumbs up
It'll run the Master System roms off the SD card but not with the original carts. Works great, FM support too.
What LCD is that?
I think you got the re resolutions wrong, 720 is 240x3, so it's an exact integer scaled resolution from the original NES resolution, 1080 is 240x4.5, which means pixel doubling is required to fill the gaps or in the case of this console, they simply do it x5 which results in the image being bigger and needing adjusting (like you demonstrated in the video)
The Overscan area in most NES games wasn't really as big as what you get on this console at 1080p at a x5 scale.
Unfortunately the horizontal resolution still needs pixel doubling at either 720p or 1080p if you want the original 4:3 aspect ratio (which depending on how good the image is filtered may result in some sort of shimmering when the image scrolls horizontally)
Another thing is FPGA does not guarantee 100% accuracy. The cores still need to be programmed/implemented by someone via software based on what documentation is available for the chip/chipset that needs to be simulated. So in some cases where documentation is vague or incomplete the simulation will not be accurate since the programmer will have to fill in the gaps, and the code itself is still subject to human error as well.
kevtris actually scoped the original systems, so they are as perfect as you are going to get without decapping the CPU and PPU (and thus making it copyright infringing.) That is pretty much what you have to do to get electrically compatible results. When he says it emulates the NES, over the analog output it's identical to the original NES when used with original controllers. When you use HDMI, the PPU is underclocked slightly so that it runs at 60hz (instead of 60.08) and is the only actual compromise to running it with HDMI.
Nintendo has no grounds to stop the NT Mini, even if they found a reason to. That is the point of blackbox reverse engineering.
Lon is demonstrating a 5 times height x 6 times width. As can be seen in the photo he inserted, what gets cropped in this mode on the Nt pretty much exactly matches the original hardware hooked up to a CRT.
NES was never a 4:3 aspect. You're confusing the idea that old TVs were "4:3" with the NES output aspect ratio. On a CRT the pixels themselves were represented roughly 8:7 in ratio, and you get very close to that ratio using the suggested 5 times height x 6 times width. There is no shimmering in this mode because it's a perfect integer scale.
RE: FPGA accuracy, Kisai's reply is accurate.
Unfortunately 5 times 240 is 1200 which gives you about 120 offscreen pixels and it is not really accurate to the NES (or most any other 240p capable console) Almost all 240p capable consoles tend to display 224 pixels vertical resolution on a CRT, leaving 16 pixels of overscan area. 16x5 is only 80 pixels, the resulting extra 120 pixels we get from a 5x scale is a bit too much. I know it may be nitpicking, but worth mentioning for people who care about that kind of stuff.
In terms of aspect ratio, yes I'm talking about the old TVs aspect ratio and not the original internal pixel perfect aspect ratio from the console itself (which is more squarish), because the TV aspect ratio in general is what the games were expected to look like, otherwise circles turn into ovals and things like that when using the internal aspect ratio.
Regarding the cores what I mean is that no matter how accurate the documentation or oscilloscope scans are, someone still has to program the core which is then loaded into the FPGA, so it is still subject to human error.
In Lon's video he actually shows a photo of RC Pro A.M running on an original NES hooked to a CRT and you can compare the cropping to the 5x height Nt Mini. If anything, the Nt Mini is displaying a tiny bit more.
And this 5x by 6x mode Lon is talking about makes a perfect circle. You want to see Kirby as an oval? Try the AVS in 4:3 scaling mode!
You should check out the My Life In Gaming review of the Retrousb AVS if you want to see a more detailed explanation. Their recommended mode (which isn't possible on the AVS) is exactly the same one Lon is recommending, and for good reason. The circles are circular, the scrolling is smooth, and the cropping is exactly what you want.
That may be more on Lon's CRT TV though since R.C. Pro-Am precisely displays 256x224 and the overscan area is just black borders. This was intended precisely to avoid getting the actual image cropped. Could it be that the NT is actually multiplying 224x5 instead of 240x5 (which results in 1120 pixels vertical resolution, much closer to 1080p) and just completely ignoring those black borders that were almost never used?
Many NES Games also only use 240 pixels horizontal resolution and crop 8 pixels on each side.
The 6x by 5x is pretty close, but still not 100% accurate.
Where did you find the other cores, I only have the nes core and could not find any of his other cores anywhere?
+Ben Davidson I have a link in the video description. Releases are dropped in an AtariAge thread. The current version supports gameboy in addition to the other systems.
I find it, digging throughout the thread took some time but I got to the latest one. Wish he would sticky a new release message to the top and update that.
As I bitch about free cores to a great piece of art that also plays classic games :)
:) yeah it definitely takes some hunting around to find it - one trick is to click on his name and you can then navigate to everything he's posted in that thread.
Here's a question for you, Lon. Do you think Analogue could add a firmware update that would make this FPGA chip simulate a Super Nintendo? I feel like I might be able to justify the price tag if that happens :)
From what I'm reading I don't think the FPGA on board is large enough to do that. But the developer is working on a multi system of his own that might.
Lon.TV I'm kinda surprised/sad they didn't make this thing with snes capabilities in mind. Especially since snes emulation is way spottier than stuff out there for the nes. I feel like that might have also gone a long way to justifying a price tag that's as high as 4K gaming consoles :)
Can cores be developed to play 16-bit systems like SNES and Genesis?
They can be but the FPGA chip on the Analogue does not have enough logic elements to make them work.
Is it possible the creator will make SNES and Genesis versions of this high-quality console?
9897samf They're making an SNES, called the Analogue Super NT Mini.
good video, But is there a simulator of GameCube?
We are at least 10 years away from something like that. In any case, it wouldn't be on this thing lol
yeah, it's called dolphin.
+Minuteworld Thats a emulator not a hardware similator
Homebrew a Wii
When did Lenovo start doing such good looking monitors? O_o
Kinda sad they didn’t give it an eject button. I mean it doesn’t look like a normal nes at all so why not include the option for a triple AAA device like this.
Wait what happened to the SNES core?
What SNES Core? There isn't a finished SNES core on FPGA yet.
He live streamed it in action last night
As far as I remember Kevtris hasn't finished an SNES core yet.
So, he was playing SNES games on something else.
Nah man, it was on this. He was testing it out live. He mentioned that this vid would be coming during the stream so this vid must have been recorded prior to his SNES core testing stream.
Kevtris said the FPGA in the NT Mini isn't powerful enough for SNES, so you are confused.
Amazing piece of tech but the price is twice what most retro gamers can pay. And I bet that those who do buy this eventually ditch the cartridges and just play roms. I think I'll wait till one comes out that can simulate ALL the cartridge based consoles and handhelds.
Looks like you have your monitor set to "Cool" temp for the colors... looks like crap. Set it to "Warm".
Great but in my eyes its still emulation, call it simulation or whatever you wish. If the system board and IC's dont have Nintendo stamped on it aint a hardware NES
Nice review but 500 is too much.
or, just an old laptop, retroarch, and if you want classic style controlers you can either get a usb adapter that supports old game controlers or just a usb version of the controlers from those days....shocking how easy they are to find....some are original conts with usb cables rather then stock cable/connector, i mean...neat idea but the profit margin on this is insane at this price...
emulation is not an evil world, what this console does is low level emulation, and it's very effective, I think it's great.
Gage Massey Not really. They don't sell them anymore so you have to buy them second hand. The devs don't make any money out of this.
Why can't the console look like a NES if the controllers can?
Thank you very much Lon for reviewing this in such detail! I finally connected mine to my HDTV and it's been great!
Does anyone have the proper Bios for these systems? Or at the very least if anyone can lead me in the right direction. I have been using Google search with minimal success for the following files. Thanks in advance to anyone who can assist.
COLBIOS2.BIN
COLBIOS3.BIN
GGBIOS.BIN
SMSBIOS.BIN
SMSBIOS2.BIN
SMSBIOS3.BIN
SMSBIOS4.BIN
Chances are if you download the rom files and rename them to what Kevtris is looking for they'll work. That's what I did.
Lon.TV Thank you Lon! I'll try it!!
The case design is just so bland and boring looking...
Just get a gold case for a raspberry pi ...😂😂
Al X Even though I would never buy this the pi doesn't take carts and it's simple software emulation. This replicates the original hardware which for some people is more authentic. It also has features emulation has. However this is way out of my price range. I'd rather take that money and buy a switch.
Screw the PI, if you are gonna emulate do it on PC.
this is incredibly stupid. why don't you just buy around 20 original nes consoles for that money.
PotatoNetwork Why not buy 20 Mazdas instead of 1 Ferrari.
Raspberry Pi or Nintendo Nes Mini is far cheaper. Sure you can't play old carts but you can load them with every game ever made for the system.
not easy to find but, there are boxes to read roms off of and write to that style cart so you could do that, why anybody would bother..i have no idea....but....meh...some ppl have 400+ to spend on retro gaming :P
or u can save ur money and download all that staff from the internet
That would be emulation, not what this machine does
respibob why can’t you get off your high horses and let people do what they want?
RUBBISH.
OEM OR BUST
Hey boss - sorry to poop on the buffet here but this isnt doing anything different than any other emulator- since it is able to run cores, and boot roms, not to mention the fact there is an overlay with things like filters etc etc - just confirms this. Do not buy the hype. It is still emulating - its just doing a better job because it is using a purpose built fpga where bugfixes and software etc are run at a much higher speed, and more efficiently than in other examples. To be clear on this matter, if it isnt using sourced parts from actual consoles, or they havent somehow found out what parts nintendo used, and gotten exact clones of them - it is still emulating. This console is just emulating in a very efficient manor - not doing something different.
That's open for debate :). FPGA's are very different than emulation and I think simulation is the better word for what it's doing. As a hardware solution it is much better than software ones, although that comes at a high price tag as we see here.
How nice of you to reply in such a way!
readyrepairs have to disagree with that notion... it is doing something vastly different to traditional emulation.
You're right in the sense that strictly speaking, emulation is the process of running an operating environment within a different environment, but this is usually done with software operating at a higher level. You are not altering your hardware makeup in any way - under all that software still sits a windows machine with X86 architecture. The 'cores' you load are all software with an element of processing (and associated lag) required to translate that back into something that your computer can execute.
FPGA is a chip made up user configurable interconnects. Once configured, it acts the same as whatever it is you have 'copied'. The 'cores' differ here as they are not software running on top of something. They reconfigure the chip to act as something else. It is true hardware simulation and would be the equivalent of an emulator reconfiguring your Intel i5 chip into a NES CPU.
The shaders and scan lines etc are applied in software, but at the hardware level, the Analogue Nt is acting as a NES.
To say that this is the same as traditional emulation (or even similar) is a fundamental misunderstanding.
nothing is being reconfigured into an nes chip. emulators run on all platforms. and since this runs core... it is just running an OS that has an emulator coded for it. youre effectively saying that since an iphone isnt a windows pc, its doing something special. it isnt. this is classical emulation.
It mimics the nes down to the transistor. The chips are programmed to operate exactly like an nes. This thing takes shits on emulators. I want one but i hear the input slot is a little flimsy when the game is in.
What a rip off.