To be fair, the Crowlands had dragons. Sure, the Vatican holds no candle to any military in the world, but if they were the only ones with nukes, suddenly the weak and feeble clergy seem a lot more capable.
This would hurt the Crownlands the most, though. Not really much past that. Sure, the Reach helps, but remember the North is literally like half the continent, the Riverlands in themselves are extremely fertile (though burn it down and then yeah, maybe they don’t do so hot), the Vale of Arryn is also described as fertile. The Stormlands are relatively fertile. Dorne has somehow survived as a separate entity for thousands of years, and most of that time it was despised and at war WITH the Reach, so they clearly aren’t starving. The Iron Islands talk a big game but unless you’re highborn ‘You Don’t Not Sow’ because I doubt the Reach would be sending crops to people who would take it all from them anyway. Finally, the Westerlands can afford to just buy food somewhere else. This is because all these regions with the exception of the Crownlands were or had historically been distinct, relatively stable political entities before Targaryen unification. They all kind of have to be self-sufficient or none of these kingdoms would have existed at all. Crownlands is unique in that while imo it should probably be the most urbanised region, its existence relies on submissive vassals to generously donate a portion of their agricultural output. So personally, I think the Reach’s ability to starve everybody out is highly exaggerated as a whole.
I just gotta say, I don’t think the Martell’s are the third richest family cause the Lannisters and Tyrrel’s are the top 2 and very close to the Lannister wealth is the old town wealth of the Hightower’s
It's hard to say, but in this scenario Old Town wealth would be under the control of the Reach. I consider the Martells the wealthiest do to them being a strong exporter compared to some of the other regions. As well as being closer to the Summer Islands so probably more trade with them as well. But either way their wealth was not the big factor on where I placed them
@@JasperLane the summer islanders don’t really trade as a whole to westeros, it’s usually individual Sumer island captains with foreign crews that trade with them, I’m actually pretty sure that the maesters wrote that the summer islanders are extremely conservative when it comes to sea knowledge and trade, also Old town is the wealthiest port in westeros with the exception of kings Landing, so idk but your right about it’s wealth being considered the reaches wealth
Essos. They’re closer to Essos, massive trade advantage, the other thing about trade is that Dorne apparently holds a completely monopoly of the production of citrus fruits - a delicacy that would afford its sellers quite the fortune I’d imagine. By lore they should also have good metallurgy as it is said that it is the Rhoynar ( whom have integrated to Dorne ) we’re the ones who taught the Andal’s how to work iron.
@@jaafarchaoui185 they do not hold the title lord paramount. They retain Rhoynish tradition due to the way Dorne entered the Seven Kingdoms, and their Rulers ( House Martell ) are referred to as the Princes/Princess’s of Dorne, not Lord Paramount. Slightly more autonomous as well. Dorne rarely involves itself in the affairs of the rest of Westeros.
IMO originally Martin wanted Dorne to have 45k as he tells the game developers it was 45k and in the second book Tyrion says they had 50k swords. But later it seems he retcons it as Prince Doran says they have the smallest population and people only think they have a big army because Daeron I exaggerated their numbers to make his conquest of Dorne seems more impressive. Edit: Reach army should be 100k.
Its interesting seeing Westerlands so high. Becuse it feels like Riverlands have upper hand. The Young riverlords during dance of dragons crushed them. In the current timeline with tywin they lost many times and where saved through freys betrayal.
It can be difficult when looking at these locations to figure out how much credit the kingdom gets and how much the person gets. For example, when Judging the North I didn't look into Rob Starks victories because I credit those more to his strategic mind rather than any inherent strength or advantage that the North had. Had Rob Stark been Lord of the Westerlands instead of the North I think he would have had just as much if not more success. In regards to the Riverlands they didn't trounce the Westernlads as far as I am aware during The Dance of the Dragons and especially in the current book timeline. Starting with the Current Tywin Lannister and Jamie Lannister pretty much smashed any army they came up against, took harrenhall and began sieging Riverrun, had it not been for the Reinforcements from Rob Stark I don't think the Riverlords could have pulled off a victory. In the Dance of Dragons, it was a bit more even, there were three battles that I am aware of, the first two were Green Loyalist victories with heavy casualties that eventually lead to the Battle by the Lackshore which was a Black Victory but the Riverlands were still harmed because of the first two losses meaning the Western lands was able to plunder and raid. Credit where credit is due though the Riverlords smashed the Stromlands later in the war, but again do I credit it to the strength of the Riverlands or to Kermit Tully being a good tactician or even to Borros Boratheon not being that good. Overall the reason why the Westernlands to me was the strongest was that it is incredibly flexible in war do to its gold as well as seeming to have the second largest army, so if you were to make a mistake as ruler of the Westernlands it would not be as damaging if you were in charge of any other region, I think Rob put it best. "We need our men more than Tywin needs his!"
In fairness, the manner in which they suffered losses can be largely attributed to human error. Going mainly from current events, which is the part I know well, The Riverlands were torn apart by the early advances of Casterly Rock, under Jamie Lannister. Half the Riverlands had already been crushed by the time Rob Stark showed up, and Edmure had been taken prisoner. Jamie Lannister was taken un-aware by Rob Stark in an ambush that would have been nearly impossible to anticipate, because of how Rob had moved and divided his army, and the same can be said for how he won the battle of the camps. Rob's assault on the Westerlands also netted him a victory, but again, this was a surprise attack that was totally one-sided. The Lannister forces never lost a decisive battle head-to-head with either The Riverlands or The North, instead playing it conservative by securing vital assets and only taking winning fights, if any. The closest the ever came to truly losing a fight under Tywin was when Edmure rebuffed them outside of Riverrun, and that prove mostly to be a feint, to clear the way for them to make haste for King's Landing, so they could escape Rob Stark and defeat Stannis.
The Riverlands gets burned constantly but the Westerlands basically never get invaded. Robb runs around in them a little bit but then dies, and he never even really gets to the heartland, nor could he ever hope to besiege the 6 mile long 2 mile wide 6,000 year old mountain fortress that the Lannisters call home.
4:21 they have actually only “fallen” 3 times (Jaehaerys taking over, the blacks taking over, and Lannister sack during Robert’s rebellion) and it’s arguable that each time it wasn’t through breaking the defenses
Jahaerys didn't really take over through military conquest though. He started marching but before anything happened maegor was dead and he just inherited. Also you're forgetting the riots led by the shepherd and aegon ii retaking it
You know that’s literally what Joffreys idea was - watch the scene in Season 1 where Cersei is tending to his dire Wolf wound. Joffrey talks about having a standing army loyal to the crown made up of trained soldiers from across Westeros. Probably the only good idea Joffrey ever had tbh
Riverlands to be a wealthy and vast region, it would need a total of 3 new ports, the rebuilding of Harranhall, and three other fortresses like moat Cailin, one for the Westerlands, one for the Reach, and one for the North.... With two sizeable castles in the iron bay ......
Sad thing for the North by the GoT time-period is that House Reed is notoriously unreliable so everyone can get past the Neck. Between Walder Frey and Howland Reed, had Robb had any wisdom he'd have knocked off both their heads at the first chance, as neither man did his job of keeping the Iron-Born out or providing any assistance to the Starks. That aside, it is a mystery how the Iron-Born moved so fast through that region. I might actually disagree also with the rating of the Westerlands to an extent as they seem remarkably susceptible to invasion which happens in every war and which results typically in them being put over a barrel just as it happens to the Riverlands. Difference though is that the WL are unified and centralised, though they tend to have crummy leaders, who are by their very nature incompetent (not all of them though). So best region would be the Vale, if they didn't always end up in minority periods, so next best in my book might be Dorne or the Stormlands. Defensible, not too overly populated, no annoying cities to keep constantly supplied, and with efficient leaders and a rich culture.
I never thought I would say this but in defense of Walder Frey....... and Howland Reed. Their is very little they could do unless they could see into the future like Bran. The Iron born were simply able to sail past the twins and neck, as for their speed it's because of their ships. Most of the land they took was the Western costal area, they didn't even have to walk. The only two exceptions I can recal off the top of my head is Winterfell which was taken by surprise with a small fast force lead by Theon who is experienced in the North. And Moat Calin which was close to a river that the Iron Born used to get really damn close and then proceeding on foot. Everything else, that's fair.
The reeds could do nothing about the ironborn. They came from behind them. And they anyways defend the paths through the swamps, not cailin itself. Plus, cailin is vulnerable to attack from the north.
Howland Reed isn't unreliable. Literally nowhere is that stated. The neck is not as much of a chokepoint as moat cailin or the twins. Though it's not ideal terrain to invade, it is open. The iron born got past Howland Reed and walder frey because they have a little thing called a navy, which Howland Reed and walder frey do not. Your chokepoints and inhospitable terrain don't mean a damn thing if the enemy can just go around them. That being said howland Reed was trying to get rid of the ironborn at moat cailin. They surrendered to theon and ramsay because of how much the crannogmen wore them down. Also robb clearly did rely on howland Reed since he was central to his plan to retake the North and probably had the information about jon being named heir.
The Stormlands do have 1 city Weeping Town giving them access to trade across the Narrow Sea Also I'm surprised you put the North so high on the list. I would place them on the same level as Dorne as they're so similar, unique culture, difficult lands, low population. If anything I'd put Dorne as being ever so slightly superior to the North as they have access to the Essosi markets and are in a good position to become a trading power.
Tywin Lannister admitted by Game of Thrones time, that their gold mines had run dry meaning essentially they have no more income anymore. Plus their population in the Westerlands doesn't match the Reach, meaning their tax base is much smaller. They also lack the naval forces to defend themselves. Casterly Rock itself may be impossible to take, but the rest of the territory is vulnerable just as much as the Reach is, and without an army nearly as large. So the Reach would be more powerful than the Westerlands.
The Westerlands having a 60k army is canon; Both Tywin and Jamie commanded hosts of ~20k at the start of the War of the Five Kings, and a 3rd army of ~20k was being raised in the Westerlands by another Lannister relative, which likely had few, if any, men from the previous defeated armies. In all honesty, when you factor in that, and their navy, 60k is conservative.
60k for westerlands seems absurd Either that number includes men they hired from elsewhere or the population density of the westerlands is 4 times higher than the riverlands, reach, vale, and stormlands
@@wickeli I believe it does include sellswords, I couldn't give you an intext citation but I seem to vaguely recall they had sellswords in their company.
Different regions likely had different types of crown authority, with the crownlands being made from multiple different regions like the Reach, Vale, Stormlands and Riverlands. With your set up, you have secured wood, iron and some of the most fertile farmland, while keeping your wardens in check You also would want to majorly limit how many soldiers are in your immediate area.....
A good video idea might be to rank the strongest fortresses/castles in Westeros, or maybe other territories as well; castles like Storm's End, The Aerie, The Red Keep, Winterfell, etc.
Like to go out of my way and say that you’re right about the Kings Landing, having fallen before multiple times. But. Technically speaking, the city is actually never fall into a full out assault when the defenders were trying to defend it. Tywin would have full out assaulted but he didn’t have to because he had someone on the inside telling the king open the gate. Turn the dance of the dragons the city was taken multiple times in that situation as well but again, you have to remember that any push against the people coming to take the city was nonexistent by that time and most of the times the small folk in the city rioted and forced the ruler of the city to surrender or die then just let the person come in. Now there’s definitely a possibility that in all situations that I just mentioned, people put up a fight, but they didn’t stand a chance, and it was no longer a defense. It was a sacking, or a takeover of the city. The battle of the Blackwater was a victory as well. There’s probably an example that I’m not thinking about where the city was full on assaulted and fell, but I can’t think of it at the current moment in time.
in GoT it is revealed that the lannister gold mines had dried up, but they were trying to keep it a secret. When lannisters invaded tyrells they were dried up with funds, and one of the main reasons they targeted the tyrells was to get hold of tyrells wealth, that they shipped to kings landing so they could hire and pay the golden company. Ie you are wrong about wealth in this video, lannisters were not even top 3. Tyrells was by far the wealthiest.
This only takes the books into account. If we were to take the show into account the Tyrells would probably be dead last considering the Lannisters were able to defeat them so easily in the show despite spending years fighting the North and Riverlands.
@@JasperLane the logic in the show regarding that is non existing. Doubt it will happen the same way if books ever keep up. The lannister gold mines drying up however could very well be something we see again in the books.
@@1984kronThe idea of the Lannister vault's running out is very silly and I hope George doesn't go for that approach. Simply put they just haven't been spending that much money in the books. It's farcicle for them to run out of it even if their mines dried up, they made literally tens of millions of Dragons during Tywin's reign as King Aerys' hand.
I think the Iron Islands should be above the Riverlands at least, they conquered it before the Dragonlords came and I believe they could do so again with ease, they also could probably hold the Shield isles (which they take in the books) and the Arbor, a very fertile island
So a few things. First one of the reasons the Ironborn were able to take over the Riverlands was because many of the Riverlords sided with them to fight against the currently ruling storm king, quite ironic because the riverlords would do this same thing years later when Aegon came to town. Second, the Riverlands have a history of changing hands. While it only mentioned that the Storm Kings and Iron Born truly controlled the Riverlands, I would bet that the Westernlands, North, and Vale have held on to a decent-sized piece of it at one moment in history given the geographical location. Thirdly I don't think it's fair to judge the Iron Islands when they were at their peak in power as then I would have to do it for every other kingdom as well such as the Stormlands when they controlled the Riverlands, or when I judge the Riverlands on their own do I consider the time when House Mudd ruled not just the riverlands but much of the crown lands? Fourthly as for capturing the Riverlands with ease, we should remember that in Balon's first rebellion, he launched an attack on Seaguard which was soundly defeated and the only reason his attacks against the north years later had an result was because a decent chunk of the fighting men were currently in the South. Throw on top all the issues that I mention in the video and I have to strongly disagree that the Iron Islands could reliably defeat any region aside from the Crownlands. That isn't to say its impossible, but if you were to put two equivalently smart guys in charge of the Riverlands and Iron Islands and have them go to war, well the Riverlands are likely to win
I not understand why aegon the conqueror not keep riverlands or less the south and east part of riverland for him, this lands is plans, easy to rule and rich, and could make pression on the Vale, North, The Reach and Westelands.
The Reach definitely deserves #1 spot, though the Rock is richer and has better natural defenses the Reach is able to host a very well equipped army of 100,000 which combined with the Redwyne fleet make invasion of the Reach nearly impossible. Controlling the richest city in the continent and the most fertile land makes the Reach very similar to the Rock in terms of wealth, only slightly lower.
I wonder why Aegon didn't annex the Reach (exept for Oldtown) and the Riverlands. Gardeners were anihilated at the battlefield and Hoares were destroyed in Harrenhall. The Riverlands would be especially easy to controll because Hoares were tyrants and Targaryens were liberators in these lands.
@niconico9568 Almost impossible to say for certain but I can at least tell you why I think he didn't and wouldn't annex both. First, it was probably just too much territory to reasonably have one man supervise both the Riverlands and Reach especially since the Reach in particular has the highest population. As for why not one or the other that's harder to nail down. After the conquest many assumed Aegon would name Oldtown as his seat of power, and while I don't think it's mentioned in any official work a ck2 mod let's you choose different areas like Harrenhal to be your capital and take over different parts of the territory which for me personally would be my first choice. But one should not discount the possibility Aegon saw the opportunity for a capital being set at Kingslanding, not only benefiting from trade from the now peaceful kingdoms of Westeros but also being a perfect location for trade with the free cities. The reason why it couldn't be used until then was because it was a turbulent area with three kingdoms fighting over the area. Finally and this is the most simple justification but Aegon maybe wanted his own place, his own castle that he could call his and have it built to his specifications. After going house hunting if I had the opertunity to just build exactly what I want I would have taken it
Because it would have been impractical to directly oversee that much land with its own history. Not to mention annexing the riverlands would make the crownlands very vulnerable to attack.
I'm only halfway through but you are crazy for putting Dorne over the Stormlands. I think the 45k number for Dorne isn't necessarily true either, I think Doran Martel admits in a chapter that they exaggerate the number and it's actually closer to 20k spears.
They have trading vessels but no war gallies if I am not mistaken. It's why wyman petitions House Stark to build a war fleet You are correct that they do have knights though
@@JasperLane right, but part of the reason why thye didn't get any strength at sea was probably because they were not allowed to. The velaryons and redwynes already had their fleets, the Starks getting their own fleet might have been looked upon with suspicion. Oh I forgot, bear island has longships. They sent them during greyjous rebellion right?
Great video and I’m inclined to agree with everything except maybe the Top 2 I’d switch The Reach and The Westerlands. I think it’s important to note that in any kind of conflict the Reach can simply cut off the food that’s essential for the entire continent. Plus their army size is said to be between 70k and 100k. You chose the smallest number for some reason. The Westerlands are obviously extremely powerful and do have the second largest army and are even richer than the Reach but not to the point were they completely blow the Reach out of the water.
I admit I might have let my personal bias get in the way of my assessment of the Reach in regards of numbers. I always struggled with numbers in asoiaf because Grrm is very loose with them. Remember how Sandor won 10k golden dragons which could have bought him 10k horses? Renly had a host of 100k made up of the Stormlands and Reach and with 30k and 70k equalling 100k going with the 70k felt like the most reasonable option. With that said I think your overestimating the Reach in regards of food. The Reach dose not supply the entire continent with food. I don't think any single kingdom could but also these kingdoms existed before Aegon united them, meaning each region had to supply themselves. I doubt Dorne is getting much if anything at all and if Dorne is able to supply their people with food then reasonably any of the kingdoms could as well. Don't get me wrong food is very important but I don't think the Reach can just snap their fingers and starve everyone out.
@@JasperLane George isn’t particularly good with numbers at all, that’s true I mean just look at his estimates for the size of the wall. Lol. Those 100k men weren’t all tho. When Renly laid siege on Storms End with 20k men he even said that another 100k swords and spears from the Reach are on the way to strengthen his numbers. To the food point. You’re right, the regions do all produce food and they were able to survive without the aid of the reach before the kingdom was formed but just like in the real world. I‘m not so sure they would be able to anymore. Over the centuries they relied on the reach for food and stuff, I don’t know if they could go back to their early days. Most of Europe suffers right now with the gas because Russia is the main contributor in that regard, just like the reach in Westeros for crops and stuff. You’re right with Dorne tho. Don’t think they really get anything.
@@gerardjagrooThe Lannisters have been operating their gold mines for 6,000 years. Do you wanna bet they're going to run out tomorrow? (Unless you're the show directors and claim they somehow ran out of money with no indication why or how).
I think you overrate the Vale, they have a severly limited amounts of land for agriculture. Their lands have large swaths of rebels. Which is an indicator they haven't been able to tame their own lands. It's trading network is reliant on ships travelling by sea. A navy could quite literally sail up and isolate the many parts of the vale and attack them one by one. Or blockade them and their economy in ruin. It's likely also hard to project their power outwards due to their isolated geography. Aswell as outsiders influencing domestic poletics by arming the mountain clans.
Not true. As it is said in the video both agriculture and naval power are among the best in the kingdoms. Mountain clans are more of a nuisance than real problem but they are impossible to eradicate just as the north cant get rid of the wildlings. Cutting off their trade wouldnt impoverish them all that much and naval invasion would still find large portions of the Vale impossible to conquer. Lords of the Vale are possibly the most loyal to their overlords in the entire westeros and knights of the Vale are the best calvary force in the westeros. And they proved both in Blackfire rebellions and Robert's rebellion that they are the force to be reckoned with on the offense
¿Morale? Not all soldiers equally equipped fight equally. Money does not buy leadership or motivation, wich in many occasions is the decisive factor. From the military standpoint the north is top tier. It's impossible to conquer (unless you have dragons or missiles), its and army strong enough to conquer almost any other (Sise + Morale) depending on the tactics. The westerlands are vulnerable from the sea, and have a hostile enemy just by their side, the Iron Islands. Maybe you can't conquer them from the sea, but sure you can weaken them, they will have many fronts to defend if you attack them by land, and also their population its not fond of discipline, sure they are top tier, but there are a couple of weaknesses that you are not looking at when doing your analysis. Besides that I think your analysis its quite good.
Leadership was not taken into account but really the strength of the lands themselves, think of it as I am giving you the chance to pick any of the nine regions to rule, which one would be the best in regards to war? The North being impossible to conquer I think is a bit of a stretch, the Westernlands are vulnerable from the sea, but so is the North, even more so as their coastal area is much longer and they don't have a decent navy to defend their shores. It's the main reason why the Iron Islands were able to take quite a bit of territory on the Western coast, and Stannis himself my take winterfell itself, though we will find out in 2086 probably. Also this is judging them in a 1v1 scenario, if it was a free for all, the North and Dorne would shoot up incredibly high simple because of being located on the ends of the map. You do make some solid points though, I don't think its quite enough to change my mind that much, maybe putting the reach at the top instead of the Westernlands.
@@JasperLane It should be noted that only the North managed to repel the Andal invasion, all the others kingdoms fell, by direct conquest or by fear of it. The North even went as far as to send a successfull punitive expedition to Andalos. The Val bent the knee only to the andal and the dragons, but only the dragons made the North submitt. The reputation of the North to be impossible to conquer is not far from the reality, they were indeed never conquered and they are the only ones in this case (Dorne was conquered several time, just not assimilated). Overall, i think the North is clearly superior to Dorne, and can be considered in the same tier than the Vale, the Westernlands and the Reach. Their lack of knights doesn't seem to be a real trouble, Robb's cavalry was able to defeat entire armies by themselves, sure the credit goes to the talent of Robb for warfare, but certainly also to the value of northmen on horses. Overall the northmen are described to be very good warriors in battle, appart from the lost war against the Val of Aryn for the sovereignty on the Three Sisters the military history of the North is quite stainless. In the Dance of dragons the 2 000 winter wolves where mentionned to be incredibly fierced warriors who played a decisive role in every clash, and yet they were old dudes, not the cream of the North. Actually there is something very special in the North that you don't find in the others kingdoms : the idea to die is deeply rooted in their culture. The lack of food in their territory has for consequences that many northmen are ready, and even often willing (especially the oldest) to die in battle to relieve their family and so are determined to fight to the death. The current situation of Stannis with his men demoralised and unwilling to continue by opposition to the mountain men of the North is eloquent (sure the fact that they are very loyal to the Stark plays a role, but loyalty is not enough, it's just their mentality to march to their death). The two real flaws the North has is the time they need to gather their bannermen, but it is not really a huge one, it only make them slow to react to the call for aid of their allies but in case of an invasion of the North they have the time to react due to their gigantic territory and the defensive position to hold the ennemies long enough. The second is their weak economy and especially the lack of food, and yeah that's quite a big one.
@@JasperLane Just to complement. When I’m saying it's impossible to conquer, actually I’m saying it's impossible to hold a conquest. Here I see that George RR Martin always get inspired from real wars and nations, so for instance, Dorne can’t be conquer, just like it was super difficult to hold Jerusalem during the crusades, and The North, can’t be conquer in the same way that Russia. We can ask Napoleon or Hitler about it. I think in general it would be too difficult due to weather, but also because there it's no real motivation to conquer The North beyond military tactics, so I think that puts them in a stronger defensive position. If the North its attacked you just use the strategy de Russians used, burn your town to the ground. When the armies arrive, they will conquer only ashes, and with no food or shelter, and extreme weather the invaders army morale will drop very fast, so you can either crush them after that, or wait for them to leave. Also, I think RR Martin design Westeros to be in a kind of stalemate, so you can justify the existence of seven kingdoms. I think you need at least 40 000 men to be a conqueror (ideally more than 60 000), so not every region have the potential to conquer others, nevertheless almost every region have the potential to be a nightmare if you try to conquer them.
The North needs reevaluated, while the Starks do not own a navy, Manderly out of Whiteharbor, New Castle and Wolces Den..... they have a sizeable trade fleet, and while not as skilled as the ironborn, the North are adaptable to naval combat in the cold waters..... and unlike the ironborn, less likely to drownd
For defense I think no Kingdom is better than the North. They were the only kingdom to repel the Andals meaning they beat people with steel weapons with only bronze weapons whenthe supposedly impregneable Vale fell to the same enemies. How ever I agree that the overall placement of the North is pretty fare in an overall war not just a defensive one
The Vale essentially fell because the andals went around the mountains by landing at the fingers. Also the Vale was not a United entity at the time. If the andals wanted, they could have landed at the white knife and likely accomplished similar results to the ironborn in clash. But they chose to keep charging through the neck. I would also argue dorne is objectively better than the North. If dragons couldn't beat them, nothing can.
Assuming the Farth North is beyond the Wall, they are just above or below the Crownlands under Mance Rayder. The Stepstones are last, they're not even united and are infested with pirates. Assuming Ever Frozen is the Land of Always Winter, they are either dead last, because there's no humans, or first due to the Others living there.
In defense of Kings Landing, the walls technically never were breached Also, people seem to ignore the fact that the North is harder to conquer than Dorne. The North was never conquered, the King just surrendered to save his people. Dorne is only good at guerilla warfare, and honestly the north could do the same.
By bending the knee to Aegon, Torrhen ensured the North had a better outcome than Dorne who fought. Dorne never bent to the Targaryens and maintained their pride, but the country was a burned out wreck by the end. By taking a temporary hit to pride, the North was able to conserve it's strength. Could it have won a guerilla war like Dorne? Most likely yes. But they'd pay a heavy price for it like Dorne. Much better to grit your teeth and bide your time for revenge which the North got in the end via Robert's Rebellion
@@gerardjagroo calling that revenge for Thorren Stark is a bit of a stretch. It was most defenitly concerned with Lyanna Rickard and Brandons deaths, rather thsn something from 300 years ago. Starks don’t seem petty or vengeful enough to keep s grudge like that simply for having to swear fielty. They take their vows seriously
Dorne was never a kingdom either, it was a principality because they were ruled by a prince or princess instead of a king. So there were really only six kingdoms with those being The North, The Vale, The Isles and Rivers (Iron Islands and Riverlands), The Westerlands, The Reach, and The Stormlands.
You are correct however in functionality Dorne was a kingdom, after all, the power was transferred to the children of the previous ruler very much like a kingdom. I don't know if there is much of a difference between the two, at least the distinction between an emperor and king is an emperor usually governs over land that they are ethnically and culturally distinct from. So really Aegons shouldn't have been king of the seven kingdoms he should have been Emperor.
I think this is fairly spot on though theres definitely room to go one way or the other with the top 2. The Westerlands have a pretty good record historically for both navy and land warfare, espescially navy where theyve spent the last 6,000 years smacking the Ironborn around whenever they get uppity and invade the Westerlands for a bit. Theres probably a reason that Balon hit the Lannister fleet instead of the Redwyne one during his surprise attack at the start of the Greyjoy rebellion. The Lannisters also have much better control of their vassals then the Reach. That said, Id probably still go for the Reach due to their raw numbers and quality. Theyre famously good knights as well, moreso than the Westerlands at least, and their population is thr biggest benefit. I would put more money on the Westerlands conquering the continent, being probably the closest region to becoming a modern nation state given their centralization, but the Reach just has more raw military capability.
That makes zero sense. I think sometimes that GRRM does not even know his own world. No way a nation as large as the Stormlands could only field 15000. 30,000 at least
The Reach does have one weakness that you forgot to mention. The Reach isn't the most Unified territory. In conflicts like the Dance of the Dragon's and the First Blackfire Rebelion the Reach was by far the least unified territory since it was basicly split in half
Perhaps that's the exception not the rule. There was a much stronger reason for houses like Hightower to support the greens than the blacks, given their own house is personally involved/at stake.
@@neinno8172 If the supremacy of house Stark, Lannister, Martell etc on their land is never questionned or almost by their vassals, it's not the case for the Tyrell, they weren't kings before the conquest, just some stewarts in contrary of many current lords of the Reach who have royal blood and many consider the Tyrell as arrogant parvenu who shouldn't be their lords.
It's a bit strange how the army sizes for the other armies in other kingdoms are inflated but for the Reach it's deflated. Given their massive population size compared to the other kingdoms they should be able to muster 80-120 thousand men. Not only that, having the religious and academic center be in Oldtown means a lot in a hyper religious medieval world. Also, it's sometimes implied that their food is necessary to feed cities like King's Landing and other regions in the winter. The main issue with them is that since the whole region is so populated some of the lesser houses have power equal to the other great lords so they are rarely united behind House Tyrell, especially since the the Tyrells are seen as loweborn than the other Reach lords. Sometimes the Tyrells stay neutral and their bannerman independently chose sides in the wars. One of the major advantages of the Lannisters is that the other houses in the Westerlands are always behind them no matter what.
I have to say, I just found your channel and you have a very entertaining and charismatic persona. Plus really cool, and not often talked about video topics like the kings of Westeros-ranking. Hope you do much more because I look forwards to seeing it.
I agree with most except for number 1 I think the reach should win with it larger army, more wealth ( it say that the Lannister are the richest family but the reach in total is wealthier) navy and if the first army of both areas are destroyed the reach and get even more me faster but overall love the video keep it up
That's fair. I might have put to much strength to the Westernlands do to their gold but it's such a flexible strength that can help them out in a multitude of ways, but the Reach is a very fair pick for #1
@@JasperLane I think the main weakness of the Reach, like the Riverlands, is that it is rarely unified. In the Dance of the Dragons, Blackfyre Rebellions, and even the War of the Fives(Florents), they couldn't bring their full strength to bear. Unlike the Westerlands, which after Tywin's show of strength with the Rains of Castamere, is fully under the iron fist of the Lannisters.
If the Stormlands and Crownlands were united? Oooooof. Top Four at least. The wealth that the Crownlands brings would be astronomical, on top of having a powerful Navy and some of the toughest soldiers in the realm. Defensively they would be lacking though so I would personally put them at either 4 or 3 because the Vale also has a pretty high quality army but it's defensive capabilities are higher. The wealth though wouldn't be enough to make up the difference in the Reach army size or the crazy wealth that the Westernlands has, at least that's what I think after thinking about it for a few minutes. Could be completely wrong
@@Ace-cr9qt because Dorne literally will not give up if they get invaded. They are the only region in Westeros that is impossible to be subjugated. Also the dornish have a much more marshal/fighting population than the north. They can also raise an army faster.
@@devjadav2902 do you think the Northman would just give up if they got invaded by someone?and I also disagree that The Dornish would have more Marshall capability then northerners and the army of dorne is very mediocre
I would personally rank the iron islands above the crownlands. They are probably the single most difficult kingdom to invade unless you have a massive naval advantage, and considering their MO seems to be to sneak attack docked fleets they can very easily make it impossible for their opponents to invade them. The crownlands on the other hand have very little natural defenses and don't seem to have any kind of marcher lords that will protect them from invasion from the west or south. They do have one of the best navies (though notably not as good as the iron islands), but again that's not very useful if kings landing and duskendale are sacked by armies from the reach, riverlands, or stormlands whilst the fleet protects blackwater bay. Honestly, the Ironborn are probably the hardest kingdom for any other to fight in a 1v1, and are basically cucked by the fact that Aegon united the continent so now there is a naval power that can beat them.
In a free for all between the kingdoms, I'm choosing the North. As Cregan demonstrates amply in the Dance, the North can bide its time while the southern kingdoms cut into each other. By the time he led his main army of about thirty-thousand south of the Neck, the bulk of the armies fighting for both the Greens and the Blacks were in tatters. In fact, it had seemed as if matters were more or less settled with Aegon II holding the IT. Cregan's march into the Riverlands and success on the battlefield changed the outcome of the war. In other words, the North, if it's not faced with a pressing need to deploy a force south as is the case for Robb and his lords in ASOIAF, has arguably the greatest advantage of them all: time.
I probably should have mentioned this in the video but this was not in a free for all situation but focusing on 1 v 1. In a free for all I think you right, the North would more likely to win and other regions like Dorn and the Iron Islands would be more likely, while the Reach, Stormlands, Riverlands, and Westernlands would fall way down, though I personally would probably give the edge to the Vale in this Free for all situation.
@@JasperLane 1v1 is definitely a different question. Of course, if there is no need for the North to advance beyond its borders, it could still adopt a policy of waiting for the other kingdom to come for it. The Vale could do much the same, and with a similar result. I think it's clear that the Vale's cavalry is better than the North's in terms of knightly combat, though I suspect that the North boasts more capable scouts and light cavalry given their environment, the distance between settlements, and the kind of small-scale, fast-moving combat they would see against threats such as the Free Folk and the Ironborn. Strictly regarding their armies' effectiveness on the field, I would still place the North very highly. Cregan, Ned, and Robb have all demonstrated themselves to be able field commanders, and the Northern crack troops seem to rather consistently punch above their weight, so to speak, even arrayed against more numerous and better equipped foes. I tend to think it is a combination of the harsher environment of the North and the attitude toward death that many in the North seem to take (such as how aged Northern clansmen will deliberately leave and died to relieve their families of the burden of caring for them; apparently, this frequently takes the form of them marching to war and finding a death in battle). While I suspect much of this was exaggerated for narrative purposes, it still gives the North a much larger and more dangerous army than one would at first think it could raise.
@@justinbailey1239 The Tully alliance and the need to defend their Riverlander allies really fucked over the North strategically. If Robb didn't have to defend the Riverlands after the military ineptitude of Edmure Tully, he could wait at Most Cailin and stomp the first fools who made it through the swamp like the Stark King's of old used to. It would also be easier to defend against Iron Born tomfoolery if he was closer to his base of power. That said, he really showed the Southron that despite being richer, the North can eat their lunch any day.
North has a fleet on the eastern side. house Manderly. It is not royal fleet or Iron fleet but it is able to defend from the raiders comming form the Essos
I disagree with Dorne not having great offensive abilities. They sacked Oldtown and retreated to Dorne before they were caught, multiple times too. The Vulture King rallies like 20,000 men only a few decades after Aegon's failed conquest of Dorne and most of them were just vengeful commoners from the Marches and Red Mountains, which is why I believe Dorne can really raise a surprising amount of troops due to how passionate their people are. They can also include women in their ranks from what I believe, whereas the other kingdoms are limited to 99% Men with the rare Brienne or Visenya as the 1%
A couple things, House Dayne did sack Oldtown at one point in history before the conquest but that was before Oldtown was the powerhouse of a city that it is today which matters little in judging the region in the current time. During the first Dornish war Oldtown repelled Joffery Dayne, though he did burn and pillaged villages near the city, but saying Oldtown was sacked is not accurate unless you are pointing to a different moment in history that is slipping my mind. You make a decent point with the Vulture King but its one that I already mentioned, the Dornish people themselves are an enemy compared to the locals of the other regions, but while that can work amazing defensively, offensively its not nearly as powerful. When your attacking your not a civilian your a soldier and if you used to be just smallflok your probably not that good at being a soldier either. As for women in there ranks I would need to see some evedince in that regard, Dorne is very progressive given the world but I would hesitate to say they allow women to join their ranks and the few warrior women of Dorne that we know have strong ties to nobility such as the Sand Snakes, but for the sake of argument lets say that you are right. That would hardly make any difference. Women are far more likely to be physically weaker then men, and in a medieval world were people are fighting with swords and axes instead of guns physical strength is far more important. Not to mention we already have the numbers that Dorn has access to, if you are correct and maybe a decent chunk of the army are women between 20% and 10% similar to our modern standards then that harms them in my eyes. 45k men are going to be more effective then 36k men and 9k women.
Tbf her father sacked the city AFTER the mad king let him in the city, but I’d say the walls of kings landing is a lot less developed due to it being a lot younger than other kingdoms capitals
wait the reach can muster 80k-100k men and they are by far stable in their wealth source as the gold mines in the westerlands are depleting at least in the shows and while gold is more flexible during war times the abundance the reach offers in food is more crucial and as the second wealthiest cant they also hire sell swords i mean they don’t have to since they have the largest army in westeros the westerlands has a weaker navy than the reach
When your strong and rich you don't have to worry about natural defenses, people around you have to worry about them. Just look at Germany throughout it's history, it was surrounded by powers on all it's sides. Austria/Italy to the South, Russia to the East, France to the west and Sweden to the north depending on a time period, and Germany was still destroying most of these enemies in wars untill USA got involved, wich was by far the strongest and richest country in the world.
Do you do realise for Most of Post Roman History in Europe, It was France who was kicking everyone's backside right, France was a menace all the way up to WW1 in terms of fighting ability. The UK ruled the Seas, but France ruled the land. I dare say the USA track record of war is still small and unimpressive in comparison to many of the older nations of Europe.
Amazing video. I would also put more emphasis on the fact that the northern soldiers have an advantage about everyone else, that is that they are more used to living in very harsh conditions that other kingdoms cant stand so easy. Northeners are used to very bad weather, very little food (yet they are quite strong and big people) and sicknes, so, when in war the weather is bad, the food is little and the health is not that good (things that usually happen), the northeners suffer less than other armies, its like they are tougher people I would say (we saw this in the Dance of the Dragons, how the winter wolves, being so fierce and willing to die, changed the tide of two key battles, despite being only 2000). And that is what I would consider the biggest flaw in the Reach. 70k its amazing and they're fairly the 2nd strongest kingdom, but most of those 70k are farmers that, while very good fed and armored, are used to living in probably the best conditions in the entire realm. If they have to go to another realm or find themselves in harsh conditions such as bad weather, little food or bad health, reachmen would be the very first people to fall like flies.
In regards to the Stormlands and the size of their army it could very well be the case that their armies are commonly made up of more professional peasant soldiers. For example the English army during the battle of Agincourt. They were vastly outnumbered but the English peasant longbowmen and men at arms were much more highly trained and professional than your average peasant levy. So in the case of the Stormlands marshalling a significantly larger force than what they're shown to be able to muster would be very difficult and also possibly not really necessary. This being the case would also go a long way to explaining Robert Baratheon's successes during his rebellion. It would also make sense that House Tarly builds their armies in a similar manner as it was Randyll Tarly who was the only lord to have ever beaten Robert Baratheon.
As a CK2 AGOT player, here's my ranking: 9. Stormlands: Literally no advantages other than playing as the martial-focused Baratheon lords in certain startdates (especially Robert, who's IMO the best non-dragonriding commander in the game.) 8. Riverlands: At least they have more men than the Stormlands, I think. 7. Dorne: At least dragons can't be used against you on home turf... but you can't really use them against your vassals, either. This is the most situational region IMO. It can be very good or very shit depending on your startdate. Cognatic inheritance is a huge advantage, though. 6. Iron Islands: Gameplay-wise, they have the best religion in Westeros. They also have strong navies, great defenses, and a surprisingly large army. Their main problem is that raiding is their only good source of income. 5. The Vale: Great natural defenses, not much else going on. 4. The North: it's huge and the first line of defense against wildlings/NW. Definitely a strong region, but not as good as the ones higher up. If you're playing as a Stark with More Bloodlines, I'd definitely say it's better than the Reach, though. 3. The Reach: You're rich and have a large army, but the Crownlands and Westerlands are more OP. 2. The Crownlands: This might be controversial, but I do not care. The Crownlands are the second best region because you can play as Valyrian characters who can hatch dragon eggs. Yes, getting actual eggs is difficult without cheating. Yes, the Crownlands are shit in most other aspects. No, it does not matter. Dragons are so OP, I'd rather play as a Velaryon or even a Celtigar than as an Arryn or even a Tyrell across most startdates. 1. The Westerlands: Gold mines and the best castle in Westeros make it so this is unquestionably the greatest region in the game. Wanna have fun? Start out as Loren Lannister in Aegon's conquest, let the Targaryens conquer everything else, repeal the invasion (which is definitely possible w/intrigue), marry your heirs to Valyrian families, and then take the throne. It. is. glorious.
@@JasperLane I’ve heard it said on multiple ASOIAF channels on RUclips like whycreate and rawrist when she did her reach region focus video’s I’m not sure if Preston Jacobs and Glidus have also mentioned it but I think so, and obviously they got all this from the books
@@billychops1280 Ah, I see, their is some confusion when it comes to the numbers of the Reach. The 80k-100k that people seem to cite comes from "A Game of Thrones: d20-based Open Gaming RPG" In the books the closest we get to the mention of an army numbering at 100k is Renly, but even then he had the support of the Stormlands and Reach. Also his army was more accurate to 80k if I recall. After Renly was assassinated Stannis claimed to have gained 20k troops but that 60k had not joined him, likely the Tyrel forces and this cooperates the Renly statement of 80k total. Pyter Balish seems to think the Reach has 50k and Tyrion in the next chapter estimates it to be 50k-70k 70k was kind of the average but I probably should have gone with 80k. If the Reach really can field 100k though then they pretty easily take the #1 spot. Outnumbering everyone 2 to 1, having a powerful navy, and some pretty high quality soldiers. Not even the Westernlands gold could make up for the difference.
@@JasperLane yes but the tyrrels didn’t conscript every single soldier for Renly, that would be foolish especially since Renly was hostile to the Lannisters who sided with joeffry and as we know the reach and westerlands share a border so leaving that border completely undefended would be extremely foolish, which is why they mobilized 60K of their 100K
@@JasperLane Doesn't Stannis say he held Storm's End against Mace Tyrell's army of 100 thousand during Robert's Rebellion. And I think they only had 50-70k at KL because many returned to their own parts of the Reach, and they sent some men to help Garlan take Brightwater Keep.
Some trade vessels most likely but nothing really built for war. He even mentions to Bran Stark in a Clash of Kings his plans to build a new war fleet for the North as they currently lack one.
Can't give you an exact place, my editor is the one who found it, I write and voice the videos. With that said its the first image if you search "Kings landing map" www.fantasticmaps.com/2013/03/kings-landing/
Fantastic video, though I'd be interested to know where you got your army sizes, as off the top of my head a fair few seem just a tad high. Otherwise, consider yourself a new staple for ASOIAF content. Subscribed.
I don't know if I can consider myself a staple just yet. Once I hit 10k subs I'll consider it lol. As for the numbers most of them come from the semi cannon source of asoiaf table top. Some of them I am not a fan of, Stormlands are to small, Reach is to big but only so much I can do to change it. I actually nerffed the Reach a bit because being the second richest, having a powerful navy, a massive army of 100k. Felt like the Mary Sue of the Seven Kingdoms
Okay i didnt finish the video yet, but so far, there are some mistakes in your logic. First off, tywin did not just assault kings landing, the doors were open to his army as aerys thought he was still on his side, once inside, it was pretty easy to just ravage the city. Now, the ironborn; there is farming in the iron islands, its just not done by iron born themselves, but thralls.
To be fair, the Crowlands had dragons. Sure, the Vatican holds no candle to any military in the world, but if they were the only ones with nukes, suddenly the weak and feeble clergy seem a lot more capable.
The Targaryens had dragons, not the crownlands.
@@nicholastreat6720
The Crownlands are effectively the direct Royal lands. Thus, Targaryen lands.
Now I can’t stop imagining the Pope reigning down fire on dragon back.
I think that the Reach should be number one, especially when the conflict is limited to Westeros only, they could just shut down the exports of food
This would hurt the Crownlands the most, though. Not really much past that.
Sure, the Reach helps, but remember the North is literally like half the continent, the Riverlands in themselves are extremely fertile (though burn it down and then yeah, maybe they don’t do so hot), the Vale of Arryn is also described as fertile.
The Stormlands are relatively fertile. Dorne has somehow survived as a separate entity for thousands of years, and most of that time it was despised and at war WITH the Reach, so they clearly aren’t starving. The Iron Islands talk a big game but unless you’re highborn ‘You Don’t Not Sow’ because I doubt the Reach would be sending crops to people who would take it all from them anyway. Finally, the Westerlands can afford to just buy food somewhere else.
This is because all these regions with the exception of the Crownlands were or had historically been distinct, relatively stable political entities before Targaryen unification. They all kind of have to be self-sufficient or none of these kingdoms would have existed at all. Crownlands is unique in that while imo it should probably be the most urbanised region, its existence relies on submissive vassals to generously donate a portion of their agricultural output.
So personally, I think the Reach’s ability to starve everybody out is highly exaggerated as a whole.
The Westerlands is the Second most Populous region and feeds itself.
Reach number one
Even the Queen of Thorns said the reach was never good at warfare
@@SuperJoshdave Show bs
I just gotta say, I don’t think the Martell’s are the third richest family cause the Lannisters and Tyrrel’s are the top 2 and very close to the Lannister wealth is the old town wealth of the Hightower’s
It's hard to say, but in this scenario Old Town wealth would be under the control of the Reach. I consider the Martells the wealthiest do to them being a strong exporter compared to some of the other regions.
As well as being closer to the Summer Islands so probably more trade with them as well.
But either way their wealth was not the big factor on where I placed them
@@JasperLane the summer islanders don’t really trade as a whole to westeros, it’s usually individual Sumer island captains with foreign crews that trade with them, I’m actually pretty sure that the maesters wrote that the summer islanders are extremely conservative when it comes to sea knowledge and trade, also Old town is the wealthiest port in westeros with the exception of kings Landing, so idk but your right about it’s wealth being considered the reaches wealth
@@JasperLane so the Martells are the third richest lord paramount family
Essos. They’re closer to Essos, massive trade advantage, the other thing about trade is that Dorne apparently holds a completely monopoly of the production of citrus fruits - a delicacy that would afford its sellers quite the fortune I’d imagine.
By lore they should also have good metallurgy as it is said that it is the Rhoynar ( whom have integrated to Dorne ) we’re the ones who taught the Andal’s how to work iron.
@@jaafarchaoui185 they do not hold the title lord paramount. They retain Rhoynish tradition due to the way Dorne entered the Seven Kingdoms, and their Rulers ( House Martell ) are referred to as the Princes/Princess’s of Dorne, not Lord Paramount. Slightly more autonomous as well. Dorne rarely involves itself in the affairs of the rest of Westeros.
IMO originally Martin wanted Dorne to have 45k as he tells the game developers it was 45k and in the second book Tyrion says they had 50k swords. But later it seems he retcons it as Prince Doran says they have the smallest population and people only think they have a big army because Daeron I exaggerated their numbers to make his conquest of Dorne seems more impressive.
Edit: Reach army should be 100k.
And in Dance, Quentyn says they have 50k spears, although he might be exaggerating to convince Daenerys
Yeah dorne a desert having 50k men a larger force than the more fertile vale and riverlands and vast north is dumb
Arguable that Doran feigns strength to his enemies.
As a Asoiaf fanfic writer, I just can’t stop myself from rewatching this video 😅
Its interesting seeing Westerlands so high. Becuse it feels like Riverlands have upper hand. The Young riverlords during dance of dragons crushed them. In the current timeline with tywin they lost many times and where saved through freys betrayal.
It can be difficult when looking at these locations to figure out how much credit the kingdom gets and how much the person gets.
For example, when Judging the North I didn't look into Rob Starks victories because I credit those more to his strategic mind rather than any inherent strength or advantage that the North had. Had Rob Stark been Lord of the Westerlands instead of the North I think he would have had just as much if not more success.
In regards to the Riverlands they didn't trounce the Westernlads as far as I am aware during The Dance of the Dragons and especially in the current book timeline. Starting with the Current Tywin Lannister and Jamie Lannister pretty much smashed any army they came up against, took harrenhall and began sieging Riverrun, had it not been for the Reinforcements from Rob Stark I don't think the Riverlords could have pulled off a victory.
In the Dance of Dragons, it was a bit more even, there were three battles that I am aware of, the first two were Green Loyalist victories with heavy casualties that eventually lead to the Battle by the Lackshore which was a Black Victory but the Riverlands were still harmed because of the first two losses meaning the Western lands was able to plunder and raid.
Credit where credit is due though the Riverlords smashed the Stromlands later in the war, but again do I credit it to the strength of the Riverlands or to Kermit Tully being a good tactician or even to Borros Boratheon not being that good.
Overall the reason why the Westernlands to me was the strongest was that it is incredibly flexible in war do to its gold as well as seeming to have the second largest army, so if you were to make a mistake as ruler of the Westernlands it would not be as damaging if you were in charge of any other region, I think Rob put it best.
"We need our men more than Tywin needs his!"
In fairness, the manner in which they suffered losses can be largely attributed to human error. Going mainly from current events, which is the part I know well, The Riverlands were torn apart by the early advances of Casterly Rock, under Jamie Lannister. Half the Riverlands had already been crushed by the time Rob Stark showed up, and Edmure had been taken prisoner. Jamie Lannister was taken un-aware by Rob Stark in an ambush that would have been nearly impossible to anticipate, because of how Rob had moved and divided his army, and the same can be said for how he won the battle of the camps. Rob's assault on the Westerlands also netted him a victory, but again, this was a surprise attack that was totally one-sided. The Lannister forces never lost a decisive battle head-to-head with either The Riverlands or The North, instead playing it conservative by securing vital assets and only taking winning fights, if any. The closest the ever came to truly losing a fight under Tywin was when Edmure rebuffed them outside of Riverrun, and that prove mostly to be a feint, to clear the way for them to make haste for King's Landing, so they could escape Rob Stark and defeat Stannis.
The Riverlands gets burned constantly but the Westerlands basically never get invaded. Robb runs around in them a little bit but then dies, and he never even really gets to the heartland, nor could he ever hope to besiege the 6 mile long 2 mile wide 6,000 year old mountain fortress that the Lannisters call home.
I will always argue that the Reach is number one.
That Reaching
The Reach is definitly the best Region if you actually had to live in Westeros. Also they have the most interesting nobles
Should do a nine cities of essos ranking
Hmmmmmmm, noted. Everyone already knows what #1 would be but their are eight other spots that could be interesting
You deserve way more subscribers. Thank you for making quality videos on these topics
They say 1 to 1000 is that the hardest step so it's only uphill from here
4:21 they have actually only “fallen” 3 times (Jaehaerys taking over, the blacks taking over, and Lannister sack during Robert’s rebellion) and it’s arguable that each time it wasn’t through breaking the defenses
If you're counting those, I would add the fall of the city to Aegon II later in the Dance.
Jahaerys didn't really take over through military conquest though. He started marching but before anything happened maegor was dead and he just inherited.
Also you're forgetting the riots led by the shepherd and aegon ii retaking it
It would have made sense if during the Targaryen era that the Crownlands had a standing army existing of men from throughout all the kingdoms.
You know that’s literally what Joffreys idea was - watch the scene in Season 1 where Cersei is tending to his dire Wolf wound. Joffrey talks about having a standing army loyal to the crown made up of trained soldiers from across Westeros. Probably the only good idea Joffrey ever had tbh
@@midzyblinkonce7716 The other good idea of Joffrey is to prepare westeros against the invasion of Daenerys but Tywin declined it.
Riverlands to be a wealthy and vast region, it would need a total of 3 new ports, the rebuilding of Harranhall, and three other fortresses like moat Cailin, one for the Westerlands, one for the Reach, and one for the North....
With two sizeable castles in the iron bay
......
Sad thing for the North by the GoT time-period is that House Reed is notoriously unreliable so everyone can get past the Neck. Between Walder Frey and Howland Reed, had Robb had any wisdom he'd have knocked off both their heads at the first chance, as neither man did his job of keeping the Iron-Born out or providing any assistance to the Starks. That aside, it is a mystery how the Iron-Born moved so fast through that region.
I might actually disagree also with the rating of the Westerlands to an extent as they seem remarkably susceptible to invasion which happens in every war and which results typically in them being put over a barrel just as it happens to the Riverlands. Difference though is that the WL are unified and centralised, though they tend to have crummy leaders, who are by their very nature incompetent (not all of them though).
So best region would be the Vale, if they didn't always end up in minority periods, so next best in my book might be Dorne or the Stormlands. Defensible, not too overly populated, no annoying cities to keep constantly supplied, and with efficient leaders and a rich culture.
I never thought I would say this but in defense of Walder Frey....... and Howland Reed. Their is very little they could do unless they could see into the future like Bran.
The Iron born were simply able to sail past the twins and neck, as for their speed it's because of their ships. Most of the land they took was the Western costal area, they didn't even have to walk.
The only two exceptions I can recal off the top of my head is Winterfell which was taken by surprise with a small fast force lead by Theon who is experienced in the North. And Moat Calin which was close to a river that the Iron Born used to get really damn close and then proceeding on foot.
Everything else, that's fair.
The reeds could do nothing about the ironborn. They came from behind them. And they anyways defend the paths through the swamps, not cailin itself. Plus, cailin is vulnerable to attack from the north.
Howland Reed isn't unreliable. Literally nowhere is that stated. The neck is not as much of a chokepoint as moat cailin or the twins. Though it's not ideal terrain to invade, it is open.
The iron born got past Howland Reed and walder frey because they have a little thing called a navy, which Howland Reed and walder frey do not. Your chokepoints and inhospitable terrain don't mean a damn thing if the enemy can just go around them.
That being said howland Reed was trying to get rid of the ironborn at moat cailin. They surrendered to theon and ramsay because of how much the crannogmen wore them down. Also robb clearly did rely on howland Reed since he was central to his plan to retake the North and probably had the information about jon being named heir.
I thought this channel has more 100k Subs... u deserve more than this dude
Step by step. Maybe someday I'll make it there but until then I'll just be having fun
I was sure you’d put the Reach first.😅
The Stormlands do have 1 city Weeping Town giving them access to trade across the Narrow Sea
Also I'm surprised you put the North so high on the list. I would place them on the same level as Dorne as they're so similar, unique culture, difficult lands, low population.
If anything I'd put Dorne as being ever so slightly superior to the North as they have access to the Essosi markets and are in a good position to become a trading power.
Weeping Town isn't a city, its a town. Westeros only has 5 cities which are King's landing, oldtown, lannisport, gulltown and white harbour
This was a very well thought out video.
Great Job!
I just want to point out that Janos Slynt has friends at court.
Tywin Lannister admitted by Game of Thrones time, that their gold mines had run dry meaning essentially they have no more income anymore. Plus their population in the Westerlands doesn't match the Reach, meaning their tax base is much smaller. They also lack the naval forces to defend themselves. Casterly Rock itself may be impossible to take, but the rest of the territory is vulnerable just as much as the Reach is, and without an army nearly as large.
So the Reach would be more powerful than the Westerlands.
Good points except the gold mines running dry. That is a show-only creation
The Westerlands having a 60k army is canon; Both Tywin and Jamie commanded hosts of ~20k at the start of the War of the Five Kings, and a 3rd army of ~20k was being raised in the Westerlands by another Lannister relative, which likely had few, if any, men from the previous defeated armies. In all honesty, when you factor in that, and their navy, 60k is conservative.
60k for westerlands seems absurd
Either that number includes men they hired from elsewhere or the population density of the westerlands is 4 times higher than the riverlands, reach, vale, and stormlands
@@wickeli I believe it does include sellswords, I couldn't give you an intext citation but I seem to vaguely recall they had sellswords in their company.
Different regions likely had different types of crown authority, with the crownlands being made from multiple different regions like the Reach, Vale, Stormlands and Riverlands. With your set up, you have secured wood, iron and some of the most fertile farmland, while keeping your wardens in check
You also would want to majorly limit how many soldiers are in your immediate area.....
A good video idea might be to rank the strongest fortresses/castles in Westeros, or maybe other territories as well; castles like Storm's End, The Aerie, The Red Keep, Winterfell, etc.
Like to go out of my way and say that you’re right about the Kings Landing, having fallen before multiple times. But. Technically speaking, the city is actually never fall into a full out assault when the defenders were trying to defend it. Tywin would have full out assaulted but he didn’t have to because he had someone on the inside telling the king open the gate. Turn the dance of the dragons the city was taken multiple times in that situation as well but again, you have to remember that any push against the people coming to take the city was nonexistent by that time and most of the times the small folk in the city rioted and forced the ruler of the city to surrender or die then just let the person come in. Now there’s definitely a possibility that in all situations that I just mentioned, people put up a fight, but they didn’t stand a chance, and it was no longer a defense. It was a sacking, or a takeover of the city. The battle of the Blackwater was a victory as well. There’s probably an example that I’m not thinking about where the city was full on assaulted and fell, but I can’t think of it at the current moment in time.
in GoT it is revealed that the lannister gold mines had dried up, but they were trying to keep it a secret. When lannisters invaded tyrells they were dried up with funds, and one of the main reasons they targeted the tyrells was to get hold of tyrells wealth, that they shipped to kings landing so they could hire and pay the golden company. Ie you are wrong about wealth in this video, lannisters were not even top 3. Tyrells was by far the wealthiest.
This only takes the books into account.
If we were to take the show into account the Tyrells would probably be dead last considering the Lannisters were able to defeat them so easily in the show despite spending years fighting the North and Riverlands.
@@JasperLane the logic in the show regarding that is non existing. Doubt it will happen the same way if books ever keep up. The lannister gold mines drying up however could very well be something we see again in the books.
@@1984kron Then if winds comes out and states the Lannisters are out of gold I'll remake the list
@@1984kronThe idea of the Lannister vault's running out is very silly and I hope George doesn't go for that approach.
Simply put they just haven't been spending that much money in the books. It's farcicle for them to run out of it even if their mines dried up, they made literally tens of millions of Dragons during Tywin's reign as King Aerys' hand.
I think the Iron Islands should be above the Riverlands at least, they conquered it before the Dragonlords came and I believe they could do so again with ease, they also could probably hold the Shield isles (which they take in the books) and the Arbor, a very fertile island
So a few things.
First one of the reasons the Ironborn were able to take over the Riverlands was because many of the Riverlords sided with them to fight against the currently ruling storm king, quite ironic because the riverlords would do this same thing years later when Aegon came to town.
Second, the Riverlands have a history of changing hands. While it only mentioned that the Storm Kings and Iron Born truly controlled the Riverlands, I would bet that the Westernlands, North, and Vale have held on to a decent-sized piece of it at one moment in history given the geographical location.
Thirdly I don't think it's fair to judge the Iron Islands when they were at their peak in power as then I would have to do it for every other kingdom as well such as the Stormlands when they controlled the Riverlands, or when I judge the Riverlands on their own do I consider the time when House Mudd ruled not just the riverlands but much of the crown lands?
Fourthly as for capturing the Riverlands with ease, we should remember that in Balon's first rebellion, he launched an attack on Seaguard which was soundly defeated and the only reason his attacks against the north years later had an result was because a decent chunk of the fighting men were currently in the South.
Throw on top all the issues that I mention in the video and I have to strongly disagree that the Iron Islands could reliably defeat any region aside from the Crownlands. That isn't to say its impossible, but if you were to put two equivalently smart guys in charge of the Riverlands and Iron Islands and have them go to war, well the Riverlands are likely to win
This is actually a very objective list
Honestly iron islands have shown through history when under a competent ruler they can be very deadly even on land as under harwyn Hoare
love you work!!
Where did you find the numbers for the regions
Sorry I missed this comment. The numbers mostly come from a A Game of Thrones: d20-based Open Gaming RPG.
@@JasperLane i think the numbers of the crownlands are faaaar superior than that. In ck2 agot they are quite a powerful region in terms of man power
@@JasperLane also maaaan i love your channel
Lannister power! 💪
IMO:
1. The Reach
2. The Westerlands
3. The Vale
4. The North
5. The Stormlands
6. The Riverlands
7. Dorne
8. The Crownlands
9. The Iron Islands
Dorne is 4th
@@bemnet7149how?
I not understand why aegon the conqueror not keep riverlands or less the south and east part of riverland for him, this lands is plans, easy to rule and rich, and could make pression on the Vale, North, The Reach and Westelands.
The Reach definitely deserves #1 spot, though the Rock is richer and has better natural defenses the Reach is able to host a very well equipped army of 100,000 which combined with the Redwyne fleet make invasion of the Reach nearly impossible. Controlling the richest city in the continent and the most fertile land makes the Reach very similar to the Rock in terms of wealth, only slightly lower.
for this ranking having every region being in peace and stuff really fugged the ironborn over
True, if it's a Free for all the Iron Islands could actually do pretty well if they focus on playing the long game
Absolutely whack that the two regions that have coasts on both sides have no navies. Brandon the burner got some explaining to do
I wonder why Aegon didn't annex the Reach (exept for Oldtown) and the Riverlands. Gardeners were anihilated at the battlefield and Hoares were destroyed in Harrenhall. The Riverlands would be especially easy to controll because Hoares were tyrants and Targaryens were liberators in these lands.
@niconico9568 Almost impossible to say for certain but I can at least tell you why I think he didn't and wouldn't annex both.
First, it was probably just too much territory to reasonably have one man supervise both the Riverlands and Reach especially since the Reach in particular has the highest population.
As for why not one or the other that's harder to nail down. After the conquest many assumed Aegon would name Oldtown as his seat of power, and while I don't think it's mentioned in any official work a ck2 mod let's you choose different areas like Harrenhal to be your capital and take over different parts of the territory which for me personally would be my first choice.
But one should not discount the possibility Aegon saw the opportunity for a capital being set at Kingslanding, not only benefiting from trade from the now peaceful kingdoms of Westeros but also being a perfect location for trade with the free cities. The reason why it couldn't be used until then was because it was a turbulent area with three kingdoms fighting over the area.
Finally and this is the most simple justification but Aegon maybe wanted his own place, his own castle that he could call his and have it built to his specifications. After going house hunting if I had the opertunity to just build exactly what I want I would have taken it
Because it would have been impractical to directly oversee that much land with its own history. Not to mention annexing the riverlands would make the crownlands very vulnerable to attack.
I'm only halfway through but you are crazy for putting Dorne over the Stormlands. I think the 45k number for Dorne isn't necessarily true either, I think Doran Martel admits in a chapter that they exaggerate the number and it's actually closer to 20k spears.
I think u forgot, but white Harbor does have ships. It's one of the biggest ports of Westeros, and they have knights.
They have trading vessels but no war gallies if I am not mistaken. It's why wyman petitions House Stark to build a war fleet
You are correct that they do have knights though
@@JasperLane right, but part of the reason why thye didn't get any strength at sea was probably because they were not allowed to. The velaryons and redwynes already had their fleets, the Starks getting their own fleet might have been looked upon with suspicion.
Oh I forgot, bear island has longships. They sent them during greyjous rebellion right?
1.Vale
2.Stormlands
3.Westerlands
4.Reach
5.Crownlands
6.Riverlands
7.Dorne
8.North
7.Iron Islands
Or Maybe Not looool
I think I can see the reasoning behind this list, with one exception.
Why the hell is the Crownlands so high?!?!?
@@JasperLane commented before watching, based on what I knew
Didnt know the Crownlands had such low army numbers lol
Pretty sure, it has been said there are more people in kings landing then the north
Great video and I’m inclined to agree with everything except maybe the Top 2
I’d switch The Reach and The Westerlands. I think it’s important to note that in any kind of conflict the Reach can simply cut off the food that’s essential for the entire continent. Plus their army size is said to be between 70k and 100k. You chose the smallest number for some reason. The Westerlands are obviously extremely powerful and do have the second largest army and are even richer than the Reach but not to the point were they completely blow the Reach out of the water.
I admit I might have let my personal bias get in the way of my assessment of the Reach in regards of numbers.
I always struggled with numbers in asoiaf because Grrm is very loose with them. Remember how Sandor won 10k golden dragons which could have bought him 10k horses?
Renly had a host of 100k made up of the Stormlands and Reach and with 30k and 70k equalling 100k going with the 70k felt like the most reasonable option.
With that said I think your overestimating the Reach in regards of food. The Reach dose not supply the entire continent with food. I don't think any single kingdom could but also these kingdoms existed before Aegon united them, meaning each region had to supply themselves.
I doubt Dorne is getting much if anything at all and if Dorne is able to supply their people with food then reasonably any of the kingdoms could as well. Don't get me wrong food is very important but I don't think the Reach can just snap their fingers and starve everyone out.
@@JasperLane George isn’t particularly good with numbers at all, that’s true I mean just look at his estimates for the size of the wall. Lol.
Those 100k men weren’t all tho. When Renly laid siege on Storms End with 20k men he even said that another 100k swords and spears from the Reach are on the way to strengthen his numbers.
To the food point. You’re right, the regions do all produce food and they were able to survive without the aid of the reach before the kingdom was formed but just like in the real world. I‘m not so sure they would be able to anymore. Over the centuries they relied on the reach for food and stuff, I don’t know if they could go back to their early days. Most of Europe suffers right now with the gas because Russia is the main contributor in that regard, just like the reach in Westeros for crops and stuff.
You’re right with Dorne tho. Don’t think they really get anything.
Also, those Lannister gold mines will run out far sooner than the Reach's ability to produce food and to trade.
Lannister wealth has an expiry date.
@@gerardjagrooThe Lannisters have been operating their gold mines for 6,000 years. Do you wanna bet they're going to run out tomorrow? (Unless you're the show directors and claim they somehow ran out of money with no indication why or how).
The Westerlands are explicitly fertile and Populous, they don't need Reach food. Only the North and King'S Landing seem to need Reach food.
7:50 riverlands have 40,000+ soldiers whilst Dorne only has 25,000
Yes they are in the middle and seemingly divided but still stronger
*cries in Trout…
Where to find the maps man pls
riverlands may not have best economy but it has the best feud blackwoods and brackens
whats the song playing when you mentioned poland?
ruclips.net/video/AZ4_LhTRARU/видео.html
I actually didn't notice this when my editor sent me the work. I only recognize it because a youtuber named Terrif used it a lot in his videos
I think you overrate the Vale, they have a severly limited amounts of land for agriculture. Their lands have large swaths of rebels. Which is an indicator they haven't been able to tame their own lands. It's trading network is reliant on ships travelling by sea. A navy could quite literally sail up and isolate the many parts of the vale and attack them one by one. Or blockade them and their economy in ruin. It's likely also hard to project their power outwards due to their isolated geography. Aswell as outsiders influencing domestic poletics by arming the mountain clans.
Not true. As it is said in the video both agriculture and naval power are among the best in the kingdoms. Mountain clans are more of a nuisance than real problem but they are impossible to eradicate just as the north cant get rid of the wildlings. Cutting off their trade wouldnt impoverish them all that much and naval invasion would still find large portions of the Vale impossible to conquer. Lords of the Vale are possibly the most loyal to their overlords in the entire westeros and knights of the Vale are the best calvary force in the westeros. And they proved both in Blackfire rebellions and Robert's rebellion that they are the force to be reckoned with on the offense
¿Morale? Not all soldiers equally equipped fight equally. Money does not buy leadership or motivation, wich in many occasions is the decisive factor. From the military standpoint the north is top tier. It's impossible to conquer (unless you have dragons or missiles), its and army strong enough to conquer almost any other (Sise + Morale) depending on the tactics. The westerlands are vulnerable from the sea, and have a hostile enemy just by their side, the Iron Islands. Maybe you can't conquer them from the sea, but sure you can weaken them, they will have many fronts to defend if you attack them by land, and also their population its not fond of discipline, sure they are top tier, but there are a couple of weaknesses that you are not looking at when doing your analysis. Besides that I think your analysis its quite good.
Leadership was not taken into account but really the strength of the lands themselves, think of it as I am giving you the chance to pick any of the nine regions to rule, which one would be the best in regards to war?
The North being impossible to conquer I think is a bit of a stretch, the Westernlands are vulnerable from the sea, but so is the North, even more so as their coastal area is much longer and they don't have a decent navy to defend their shores. It's the main reason why the Iron Islands were able to take quite a bit of territory on the Western coast, and Stannis himself my take winterfell itself, though we will find out in 2086 probably.
Also this is judging them in a 1v1 scenario, if it was a free for all, the North and Dorne would shoot up incredibly high simple because of being located on the ends of the map.
You do make some solid points though, I don't think its quite enough to change my mind that much, maybe putting the reach at the top instead of the Westernlands.
@@JasperLane It should be noted that only the North managed to repel the Andal invasion, all the others kingdoms fell, by direct conquest or by fear of it. The North even went as far as to send a successfull punitive expedition to Andalos.
The Val bent the knee only to the andal and the dragons, but only the dragons made the North submitt. The reputation of the North to be impossible to conquer is not far from the reality, they were indeed never conquered and they are the only ones in this case (Dorne was conquered several time, just not assimilated).
Overall, i think the North is clearly superior to Dorne, and can be considered in the same tier than the Vale, the Westernlands and the Reach. Their lack of knights doesn't seem to be a real trouble, Robb's cavalry was able to defeat entire armies by themselves, sure the credit goes to the talent of Robb for warfare, but certainly also to the value of northmen on horses. Overall the northmen are described to be very good warriors in battle, appart from the lost war against the Val of Aryn for the sovereignty on the Three Sisters the military history of the North is quite stainless. In the Dance of dragons the 2 000 winter wolves where mentionned to be incredibly fierced warriors who played a decisive role in every clash, and yet they were old dudes, not the cream of the North.
Actually there is something very special in the North that you don't find in the others kingdoms : the idea to die is deeply rooted in their culture. The lack of food in their territory has for consequences that many northmen are ready, and even often willing (especially the oldest) to die in battle to relieve their family and so are determined to fight to the death. The current situation of Stannis with his men demoralised and unwilling to continue by opposition to the mountain men of the North is eloquent (sure the fact that they are very loyal to the Stark plays a role, but loyalty is not enough, it's just their mentality to march to their death).
The two real flaws the North has is the time they need to gather their bannermen, but it is not really a huge one, it only make them slow to react to the call for aid of their allies but in case of an invasion of the North they have the time to react due to their gigantic territory and the defensive position to hold the ennemies long enough. The second is their weak economy and especially the lack of food, and yeah that's quite a big one.
@@JasperLane Just to complement. When I’m saying it's impossible to conquer, actually I’m saying it's impossible to hold a conquest. Here I see that George RR Martin always get inspired from real wars and nations, so for instance, Dorne can’t be conquer, just like it was super difficult to hold Jerusalem during the crusades, and The North, can’t be conquer in the same way that Russia. We can ask Napoleon or Hitler about it. I think in general it would be too difficult due to weather, but also because there it's no real motivation to conquer The North beyond military tactics, so I think that puts them in a stronger defensive position. If the North its attacked you just use the strategy de Russians used, burn your town to the ground. When the armies arrive, they will conquer only ashes, and with no food or shelter, and extreme weather the invaders army morale will drop very fast, so you can either crush them after that, or wait for them to leave.
Also, I think RR Martin design Westeros to be in a kind of stalemate, so you can justify the existence of seven kingdoms. I think you need at least 40 000 men to be a conqueror (ideally more than 60 000), so not every region have the potential to conquer others, nevertheless almost every region have the potential to be a nightmare if you try to conquer them.
The North needs reevaluated, while the Starks do not own a navy, Manderly out of Whiteharbor, New Castle and Wolces Den..... they have a sizeable trade fleet, and while not as skilled as the ironborn, the North are adaptable to naval combat in the cold waters..... and unlike the ironborn, less likely to drownd
For defense I think no Kingdom is better than the North. They were the only kingdom to repel the Andals meaning they beat people with steel weapons with only bronze weapons whenthe supposedly impregneable Vale fell to the same enemies. How ever I agree that the overall placement of the North is pretty fare in an overall war not just a defensive one
The Vale essentially fell because the andals went around the mountains by landing at the fingers. Also the Vale was not a United entity at the time. If the andals wanted, they could have landed at the white knife and likely accomplished similar results to the ironborn in clash. But they chose to keep charging through the neck.
I would also argue dorne is objectively better than the North. If dragons couldn't beat them, nothing can.
Add another three regions...
Far North
Ever Frozen
Stepping Stones
Assuming the Farth North is beyond the Wall, they are just above or below the Crownlands under Mance Rayder.
The Stepstones are last, they're not even united and are infested with pirates.
Assuming Ever Frozen is the Land of Always Winter, they are either dead last, because there's no humans, or first due to the Others living there.
In defense of Kings Landing, the walls technically never were breached
Also, people seem to ignore the fact that the North is harder to conquer than Dorne. The North was never conquered, the King just surrendered to save his people. Dorne is only good at guerilla warfare, and honestly the north could do the same.
By bending the knee to Aegon, Torrhen ensured the North had a better outcome than Dorne who fought.
Dorne never bent to the Targaryens and maintained their pride, but the country was a burned out wreck by the end.
By taking a temporary hit to pride, the North was able to conserve it's strength.
Could it have won a guerilla war like Dorne? Most likely yes.
But they'd pay a heavy price for it like Dorne.
Much better to grit your teeth and bide your time for revenge which the North got in the end via Robert's Rebellion
@@gerardjagroo calling that revenge for Thorren Stark is a bit of a stretch. It was most defenitly concerned with Lyanna Rickard and Brandons deaths, rather thsn something from 300 years ago. Starks don’t seem petty or vengeful enough to keep s grudge like that simply for having to swear fielty. They take their vows seriously
Dorne was never a kingdom either, it was a principality because they were ruled by a prince or princess instead of a king. So there were really only six kingdoms with those being The North, The Vale, The Isles and Rivers (Iron Islands and Riverlands), The Westerlands, The Reach, and The Stormlands.
You are correct however in functionality Dorne was a kingdom, after all, the power was transferred to the children of the previous ruler very much like a kingdom.
I don't know if there is much of a difference between the two, at least the distinction between an emperor and king is an emperor usually governs over land that they are ethnically and culturally distinct from.
So really Aegons shouldn't have been king of the seven kingdoms he should have been Emperor.
I think this is fairly spot on though theres definitely room to go one way or the other with the top 2. The Westerlands have a pretty good record historically for both navy and land warfare, espescially navy where theyve spent the last 6,000 years smacking the Ironborn around whenever they get uppity and invade the Westerlands for a bit. Theres probably a reason that Balon hit the Lannister fleet instead of the Redwyne one during his surprise attack at the start of the Greyjoy rebellion. The Lannisters also have much better control of their vassals then the Reach.
That said, Id probably still go for the Reach due to their raw numbers and quality. Theyre famously good knights as well, moreso than the Westerlands at least, and their population is thr biggest benefit. I would put more money on the Westerlands conquering the continent, being probably the closest region to becoming a modern nation state given their centralization, but the Reach just has more raw military capability.
Good video mate, but they're called the Westerlands. Wester. Not "western". No N.
Crap you're right. I I don't like that.
It's cavalry, not calvary.
LMAO So I came here rooting for the reach… and then this was a military video. Hmmm.
First viewer 🙏
You, IMO, should have traded places between the Riverlands and the Storm lands. I think GRRM said that the Stormlands can only field about 15,000
That makes zero sense. I think sometimes that GRRM does not even know his own world.
No way a nation as large as the Stormlands could only field 15000.
30,000 at least
My own top
9.Iron Islands
8. Riverlands
7. Crownlands
6. Dorne
5. Vale
4. North
3.Reach
2. Stormlands
1.Westerlands
The Reach does have one weakness that you forgot to mention. The Reach isn't the most Unified territory. In conflicts like the Dance of the Dragon's and the First Blackfire Rebelion the Reach was by far the least unified territory since it was basicly split in half
Perhaps that's the exception not the rule. There was a much stronger reason for houses like Hightower to support the greens than the blacks, given their own house is personally involved/at stake.
@@neinno8172 Still the amount of houses that where on both sides is concerning
@@debater452 true
@@neinno8172 If the supremacy of house Stark, Lannister, Martell etc on their land is never questionned or almost by their vassals, it's not the case for the Tyrell, they weren't kings before the conquest, just some stewarts in contrary of many current lords of the Reach who have royal blood and many consider the Tyrell as arrogant parvenu who shouldn't be their lords.
The North is like an old fashioned steam engine. It takes a while to get it going, but once it picks up steam, there's no stopping it.
It's a bit strange how the army sizes for the other armies in other kingdoms are inflated but for the Reach it's deflated. Given their massive population size compared to the other kingdoms they should be able to muster 80-120 thousand men. Not only that, having the religious and academic center be in Oldtown means a lot in a hyper religious medieval world. Also, it's sometimes implied that their food is necessary to feed cities like King's Landing and other regions in the winter. The main issue with them is that since the whole region is so populated some of the lesser houses have power equal to the other great lords so they are rarely united behind House Tyrell, especially since the the Tyrells are seen as loweborn than the other Reach lords. Sometimes the Tyrells stay neutral and their bannerman independently chose sides in the wars. One of the major advantages of the Lannisters is that the other houses in the Westerlands are always behind them no matter what.
The reason dorne is said to have so many soldiers is because they're totally lying about it and dont want the rest of westeros to find out
I have to say, I just found your channel and you have a very entertaining and charismatic persona. Plus really cool, and not often talked about video topics like the kings of Westeros-ranking. Hope you do much more because I look forwards to seeing it.
I agree with most except for number 1 I think the reach should win with it larger army, more wealth ( it say that the Lannister are the richest family but the reach in total is wealthier) navy and if the first army of both areas are destroyed the reach and get even more me faster but overall love the video keep it up
That's fair. I might have put to much strength to the Westernlands do to their gold but it's such a flexible strength that can help them out in a multitude of ways, but the Reach is a very fair pick for #1
i would still give the westerlands the upper hand since it had more capable military commanders
@@ianwinter514 and but none of the quality of Randyll Tarly
@@JasperLane I think the main weakness of the Reach, like the Riverlands, is that it is rarely unified. In the Dance of the Dragons, Blackfyre Rebellions, and even the War of the Fives(Florents), they couldn't bring their full strength to bear. Unlike the Westerlands, which after Tywin's show of strength with the Rains of Castamere, is fully under the iron fist of the Lannisters.
The Westerlands are explicitly the wealthiest and second most Populous region, and they're much better defensively than the reach.
Where would the Stormlands and Crownlands combined rank? At the start of Game of Thrones, they’d have basically been united under Robert.
If the Stormlands and Crownlands were united? Oooooof. Top Four at least.
The wealth that the Crownlands brings would be astronomical, on top of having a powerful Navy and some of the toughest soldiers in the realm.
Defensively they would be lacking though so I would personally put them at either 4 or 3 because the Vale also has a pretty high quality army but it's defensive capabilities are higher.
The wealth though wouldn't be enough to make up the difference in the Reach army size or the crazy wealth that the Westernlands has, at least that's what I think after thinking about it for a few minutes. Could be completely wrong
@@JasperLane Thanks!😁
Ranking the 11 regions of Westeros:
11. Beyond the Wall
10. Stepstones
9. Iron Islands
8. Crownlands
7. Stormlands
6. Riverlands
5. North
4. Dorne
3. Vale
2. Westerlands
1. Reach
How is dorne better than the North explain please?
@@Ace-cr9qt because Dorne literally will not give up if they get invaded. They are the only region in Westeros that is impossible to be subjugated. Also the dornish have a much more marshal/fighting population than the north. They can also raise an army faster.
@@devjadav2902 do you think the Northman would just give up if they got invaded by someone?and I also disagree that The Dornish would have more Marshall capability then northerners and the army of dorne is very mediocre
I would personally rank the iron islands above the crownlands. They are probably the single most difficult kingdom to invade unless you have a massive naval advantage, and considering their MO seems to be to sneak attack docked fleets they can very easily make it impossible for their opponents to invade them. The crownlands on the other hand have very little natural defenses and don't seem to have any kind of marcher lords that will protect them from invasion from the west or south. They do have one of the best navies (though notably not as good as the iron islands), but again that's not very useful if kings landing and duskendale are sacked by armies from the reach, riverlands, or stormlands whilst the fleet protects blackwater bay.
Honestly, the Ironborn are probably the hardest kingdom for any other to fight in a 1v1, and are basically cucked by the fact that Aegon united the continent so now there is a naval power that can beat them.
In a free for all between the kingdoms, I'm choosing the North. As Cregan demonstrates amply in the Dance, the North can bide its time while the southern kingdoms cut into each other. By the time he led his main army of about thirty-thousand south of the Neck, the bulk of the armies fighting for both the Greens and the Blacks were in tatters. In fact, it had seemed as if matters were more or less settled with Aegon II holding the IT. Cregan's march into the Riverlands and success on the battlefield changed the outcome of the war.
In other words, the North, if it's not faced with a pressing need to deploy a force south as is the case for Robb and his lords in ASOIAF, has arguably the greatest advantage of them all: time.
I probably should have mentioned this in the video but this was not in a free for all situation but focusing on 1 v 1. In a free for all I think you right, the North would more likely to win and other regions like Dorn and the Iron Islands would be more likely, while the Reach, Stormlands, Riverlands, and Westernlands would fall way down, though I personally would probably give the edge to the Vale in this Free for all situation.
@@JasperLane 1v1 is definitely a different question. Of course, if there is no need for the North to advance beyond its borders, it could still adopt a policy of waiting for the other kingdom to come for it. The Vale could do much the same, and with a similar result. I think it's clear that the Vale's cavalry is better than the North's in terms of knightly combat, though I suspect that the North boasts more capable scouts and light cavalry given their environment, the distance between settlements, and the kind of small-scale, fast-moving combat they would see against threats such as the Free Folk and the Ironborn.
Strictly regarding their armies' effectiveness on the field, I would still place the North very highly. Cregan, Ned, and Robb have all demonstrated themselves to be able field commanders, and the Northern crack troops seem to rather consistently punch above their weight, so to speak, even arrayed against more numerous and better equipped foes. I tend to think it is a combination of the harsher environment of the North and the attitude toward death that many in the North seem to take (such as how aged Northern clansmen will deliberately leave and died to relieve their families of the burden of caring for them; apparently, this frequently takes the form of them marching to war and finding a death in battle). While I suspect much of this was exaggerated for narrative purposes, it still gives the North a much larger and more dangerous army than one would at first think it could raise.
@@justinbailey1239 The Tully alliance and the need to defend their Riverlander allies really fucked over the North strategically.
If Robb didn't have to defend the Riverlands after the military ineptitude of Edmure Tully, he could wait at Most Cailin and stomp the first fools who made it through the swamp like the Stark King's of old used to.
It would also be easier to defend against Iron Born tomfoolery if he was closer to his base of power.
That said, he really showed the Southron that despite being richer, the North can eat their lunch any day.
North has a fleet on the eastern side. house Manderly. It is not royal fleet or Iron fleet but it is able to defend from the raiders comming form the Essos
I disagree with Dorne not having great offensive abilities. They sacked Oldtown and retreated to Dorne before they were caught, multiple times too. The Vulture King rallies like 20,000 men only a few decades after Aegon's failed conquest of Dorne and most of them were just vengeful commoners from the Marches and Red Mountains, which is why I believe Dorne can really raise a surprising amount of troops due to how passionate their people are. They can also include women in their ranks from what I believe, whereas the other kingdoms are limited to 99% Men with the rare Brienne or Visenya as the 1%
A couple things, House Dayne did sack Oldtown at one point in history before the conquest but that was before Oldtown was the powerhouse of a city that it is today which matters little in judging the region in the current time.
During the first Dornish war Oldtown repelled Joffery Dayne, though he did burn and pillaged villages near the city, but saying Oldtown was sacked is not accurate unless you are pointing to a different moment in history that is slipping my mind.
You make a decent point with the Vulture King but its one that I already mentioned, the Dornish people themselves are an enemy compared to the locals of the other regions, but while that can work amazing defensively, offensively its not nearly as powerful. When your attacking your not a civilian your a soldier and if you used to be just smallflok your probably not that good at being a soldier either.
As for women in there ranks I would need to see some evedince in that regard, Dorne is very progressive given the world but I would hesitate to say they allow women to join their ranks and the few warrior women of Dorne that we know have strong ties to nobility such as the Sand Snakes, but for the sake of argument lets say that you are right.
That would hardly make any difference. Women are far more likely to be physically weaker then men, and in a medieval world were people are fighting with swords and axes instead of guns physical strength is far more important. Not to mention we already have the numbers that Dorn has access to, if you are correct and maybe a decent chunk of the army are women between 20% and 10% similar to our modern standards then that harms them in my eyes. 45k men are going to be more effective then 36k men and 9k women.
Tbf her father sacked the city AFTER the mad king let him in the city, but I’d say the walls of kings landing is a lot less developed due to it being a lot younger than other kingdoms capitals
I'd say the Riverlands are the Belgium/Holland of Westeros.
wait the reach can muster 80k-100k men and they are by far stable in their wealth source as the gold mines in the westerlands are depleting at least in the shows and while gold is more flexible during war times the abundance the reach offers in food is more crucial and as the second wealthiest cant they also hire sell swords i mean they don’t have to since they have the largest army in westeros the westerlands has a weaker navy than the reach
Apparently the strongest house in the seven kingdom is house Dandee. I heard they took down 3 dragons of Daenerys and the entire GoT franchise.
Seven kingdoms more like seven cringedoms
What if you combined the Crownlands and Stormlands? Where would a Combined Baratheon Holding rank?
@@Inoffensive_name If you were to merge them it would shoot up to top three roughly.
The Reach has food that the most important
Ah, yes 😁👍 Awesome video! Great arguments and editing! 😉
Lannister propaganda
When your strong and rich you don't have to worry about natural defenses, people around you have to worry about them. Just look at Germany throughout it's history, it was surrounded by powers on all it's sides. Austria/Italy to the South, Russia to the East, France to the west and Sweden to the north depending on a time period, and Germany was still destroying most of these enemies in wars untill USA got involved, wich was by far the strongest and richest country in the world.
Dear lord where do you get your history knowledge from lmao
You butchered history almost as bad as D and D butchered the end of GoT
Do you do realise for Most of Post Roman History in Europe, It was France who was kicking everyone's backside right, France was a menace all the way up to WW1 in terms of fighting ability. The UK ruled the Seas, but France ruled the land.
I dare say the USA track record of war is still small and unimpressive in comparison to many of the older nations of Europe.
Amazing video. I would also put more emphasis on the fact that the northern soldiers have an advantage about everyone else, that is that they are more used to living in very harsh conditions that other kingdoms cant stand so easy. Northeners are used to very bad weather, very little food (yet they are quite strong and big people) and sicknes, so, when in war the weather is bad, the food is little and the health is not that good (things that usually happen), the northeners suffer less than other armies, its like they are tougher people I would say (we saw this in the Dance of the Dragons, how the winter wolves, being so fierce and willing to die, changed the tide of two key battles, despite being only 2000).
And that is what I would consider the biggest flaw in the Reach. 70k its amazing and they're fairly the 2nd strongest kingdom, but most of those 70k are farmers that, while very good fed and armored, are used to living in probably the best conditions in the entire realm. If they have to go to another realm or find themselves in harsh conditions such as bad weather, little food or bad health, reachmen would be the very first people to fall like flies.
In regards to the Stormlands and the size of their army it could very well be the case that their armies are commonly made up of more professional peasant soldiers. For example the English army during the battle of Agincourt. They were vastly outnumbered but the English peasant longbowmen and men at arms were much more highly trained and professional than your average peasant levy. So in the case of the Stormlands marshalling a significantly larger force than what they're shown to be able to muster would be very difficult and also possibly not really necessary. This being the case would also go a long way to explaining Robert Baratheon's successes during his rebellion. It would also make sense that House Tarly builds their armies in a similar manner as it was Randyll Tarly who was the only lord to have ever beaten Robert Baratheon.
Quite a day when Hill's Alive, Preston Jacobs, Alt Shift X and Jasper all upload at once!
I am honored to be compared to those titans
I love Hill's Alive.
So sensible, reasonable and humane.
@@gerardjagroo Yeah, she makes great stuff.
I disagree about the top two money's good but not the greatest
As a CK2 AGOT player, here's my ranking:
9. Stormlands: Literally no advantages other than playing as the martial-focused Baratheon lords in certain startdates (especially Robert, who's IMO the best non-dragonriding commander in the game.)
8. Riverlands: At least they have more men than the Stormlands, I think.
7. Dorne: At least dragons can't be used against you on home turf... but you can't really use them against your vassals, either. This is the most situational region IMO. It can be very good or very shit depending on your startdate. Cognatic inheritance is a huge advantage, though.
6. Iron Islands: Gameplay-wise, they have the best religion in Westeros. They also have strong navies, great defenses, and a surprisingly large army. Their main problem is that raiding is their only good source of income.
5. The Vale: Great natural defenses, not much else going on.
4. The North: it's huge and the first line of defense against wildlings/NW. Definitely a strong region, but not as good as the ones higher up. If you're playing as a Stark with More Bloodlines, I'd definitely say it's better than the Reach, though.
3. The Reach: You're rich and have a large army, but the Crownlands and Westerlands are more OP.
2. The Crownlands: This might be controversial, but I do not care. The Crownlands are the second best region because you can play as Valyrian characters who can hatch dragon eggs. Yes, getting actual eggs is difficult without cheating. Yes, the Crownlands are shit in most other aspects. No, it does not matter. Dragons are so OP, I'd rather play as a Velaryon or even a Celtigar than as an Arryn or even a Tyrell across most startdates.
1. The Westerlands: Gold mines and the best castle in Westeros make it so this is unquestionably the greatest region in the game. Wanna have fun? Start out as Loren Lannister in Aegon's conquest, let the Targaryens conquer everything else, repeal the invasion (which is definitely possible w/intrigue), marry your heirs to Valyrian families, and then take the throne. It. is. glorious.
I agree with u but I would put Dorne above the iron islands, it’s super hard to invade Dorne with the supply limits and attrition issues
Also the reach can at maximum field 100K men
I'll have to know where you got that number. The sources I came across seem to say 70k
@@JasperLane I’ve heard it said on multiple ASOIAF channels on RUclips like whycreate and rawrist when she did her reach region focus video’s I’m not sure if Preston Jacobs and Glidus have also mentioned it but I think so, and obviously they got all this from the books
@@billychops1280 Ah, I see, their is some confusion when it comes to the numbers of the Reach. The 80k-100k that people seem to cite comes from "A Game of Thrones: d20-based Open Gaming RPG"
In the books the closest we get to the mention of an army numbering at 100k is Renly, but even then he had the support of the Stormlands and Reach. Also his army was more accurate to 80k if I recall.
After Renly was assassinated Stannis claimed to have gained 20k troops but that 60k had not joined him, likely the Tyrel forces and this cooperates the Renly statement of 80k total.
Pyter Balish seems to think the Reach has 50k and Tyrion in the next chapter estimates it to be 50k-70k
70k was kind of the average but I probably should have gone with 80k.
If the Reach really can field 100k though then they pretty easily take the #1 spot. Outnumbering everyone 2 to 1, having a powerful navy, and some pretty high quality soldiers. Not even the Westernlands gold could make up for the difference.
@@JasperLane yes but the tyrrels didn’t conscript every single soldier for Renly, that would be foolish especially since Renly was hostile to the Lannisters who sided with joeffry and as we know the reach and westerlands share a border so leaving that border completely undefended would be extremely foolish, which is why they mobilized 60K of their 100K
@@JasperLane Doesn't Stannis say he held Storm's End against Mace Tyrell's army of 100 thousand during Robert's Rebellion. And I think they only had 50-70k at KL because many returned to their own parts of the Reach, and they sent some men to help Garlan take Brightwater Keep.
Do the mandarlys not have ships?
Some trade vessels most likely but nothing really built for war. He even mentions to Bran Stark in a Clash of Kings his plans to build a new war fleet for the North as they currently lack one.
where can i find the map of king's landing at 3:37
Can't give you an exact place, my editor is the one who found it, I write and voice the videos. With that said its the first image if you search "Kings landing map" www.fantasticmaps.com/2013/03/kings-landing/
Where's the stormlands?
Fantastic video, though I'd be interested to know where you got your army sizes, as off the top of my head a fair few seem just a tad high. Otherwise, consider yourself a new staple for ASOIAF content. Subscribed.
I don't know if I can consider myself a staple just yet. Once I hit 10k subs I'll consider it lol.
As for the numbers most of them come from the semi cannon source of asoiaf table top. Some of them I am not a fan of, Stormlands are to small, Reach is to big but only so much I can do to change it. I actually nerffed the Reach a bit because being the second richest, having a powerful navy, a massive army of 100k. Felt like the Mary Sue of the Seven Kingdoms
Okay i didnt finish the video yet, but so far, there are some mistakes in your logic. First off, tywin did not just assault kings landing, the doors were open to his army as aerys thought he was still on his side, once inside, it was pretty easy to just ravage the city. Now, the ironborn; there is farming in the iron islands, its just not done by iron born themselves, but thralls.