when all the fighting's done and you tell everyone to pack up and go home two things one is i imagine a decent amount might not make it home secondly you've depleted your serfs so you can't get as much serf work done
@@ProbablyTrueTales I think it is morale and knowledge of enemy, their tactics and trainings need to be explained to our soldiers for them having better chance of fighting
Amateurs talk about tactics, professionals study logistics. An army cannot fight hungry, without weapons, no gold to keep them motivated and no horses to move supplies.
Ever since the Russian army totally bogged down on the road trying to invade Ukraine everyone has been absolutely obsessed with the importance of logistics. Tires went flat and no way to pull trucks out of line to replace them. Soldiers raiding grocery stores after rations all eaten. I imagine Westeros would not need to worry about drones.
@@movieloverfan18 Its why Ukraine lasted so long in the early war without UN and US support. The russian supply line was bogged down slowing their advanced allowing the spirited and ferocious ukraine defense to dig in and hold. They fought like dragons holding ground without advanced anti-tank weapons, with minimal training, and no US intelligence. Once they had that they started pushing back and even today have pushed into russia which is crazy
That's why most medieval armies up until the modern period lived off the land they marched through. The armies that cared about not antagonizing the local population gave out orders that they had to pay for what they took and punished plundering. In times that were more dire, when the armies knew they would not get enough food, they just plundered the local population. Yes there were baggage trains, but hardly ever enough to really feed an army and much of what it carried was locally sourced.
I think A Song of Ice and Fire, especially A Feast For Crowd, had Westerosi countryside-especially war zones like Riverlands-being devastated due to plundering and raids. Entire brotherhood without Banners being made up of unpaid mercenaries, deserters, and bandits.
Depends the time because if we pick some nations like the ERE and even England in the late middle ages they have an logistic system that basically get supplies from their home country, the medieval period is not static and there differences by regions, nations, etc... and that is a thing that Martin tends to forgot or don't even know.
This is oversimpliefied and underestimated. 1. A soldier needs 2 pounds of grain, but also a pound of meat and 2 liters of ale/beer/wine. 2. There is multidude of unaccounted horses. Term "men-at-arms" refers to a soldier fighting on horseback while not beeing knighted. So here we have additional 3k horses. Also every selfrespecting knight would have a horse only for riding plus at least one warhorse for battle. 3. 24 km per day is a top speed for 20k army. It's more likely that average marching speed would be around 20 km/day. Plus rest days should be every 4 days. That is not only for the sake of the soldiers, but more so for the sake of the horses, and most of all for the carts - wooden axles tend to break very often. 4. You have not even touched the subject of buying weapons, armour, siege engines, scorpions, camping equipment, tools, etc. I understand that those costs are more to do with creating an army then with maintaining it, but they should also be included in the overall costs of the campaign. Logistics is complicated.
Thanks for the feedback! You're absolutely right, logistics in war are incredibly complicated, and there are a lot of factors to consider beyond just grain. While I focused on the basics like feeding the army, it's true that soldiers in Westeros, much like in feudal societies, were often expected to bring their own armor and equipment. This reduced the direct cost on the lords, though there were still significant expenses for things like siege engines, scorpions, and maintaining camp. As for the extra horses, especially for men-at-arms and knights, that's a great point! I could definitely expand on the number of horses and the costs involved in keeping them. Marching speed and rest days were another area where I simplified for clarity, but you're right-those axles would break more often than we'd like to think!
Much of the cost of the knights would be carried by the knights themselves as part of their service to their lord, this including the numbers of archers and infantry they take with them as their retinues. This is one of the advantages of the feudal army as it spreads the economic drain of war over your vassals, whom have their lands and titles just exactly for this reason.
I mean, the lord in question shouldn't be responsible for monetarily paying for arms and armor as levies in this type of system should be required to purchase and maintain that sort of gear themselves or otherwise be provided it by their immediate superiors as part of their obligations as peasants and vassals of the crown... but that's less an issue with your analysis than with GRRM's fundamental misunderstanding of how feudal economics and logistics worked historically. The same applies to most of the foodstuffs aswell, as much of that is what "taxes" look like in feudal systems. The peasants are allowed to work and manage the land and have a stable life primarily in exchange for a portion of the food produced and fighting men in times of crisis. There were taxes that collected money directly, but they weren't the norm. At least not in England. "Geld taxes," were usually reserved for emergency funds after the 12th Century and were rarely in effect to any substantial degree. There were also many ways of becoming exempt from them entirely, including military service. They were the exception rather than the rule. So while that is the "worth" of the supplies needed, the actual amount of money being spent would be pretty minimal. You're only really paying out of pocket if you need mercenaries (which given the politics on display I think are a little overrepresented, but that's the least of our worries). Plus, if the crown is ever hurting for soldiers and can't afford mercenaries, they can usually find a workaround by providing extra incentives such as land grants or extra tax exemptions for the peasantry. Historically this worked pretty well. We don't see war being as heavily dependent on gold and silver as it is in ASOIAF until the Napoleonic era. The reasons for this are A: feudalism died and the interconnected responsibilities of the different strata of society went with it, and B: war got really expensive and progressively more dependent on mass manufacturing. This is both due to professional armies becoming the norm rather than the exception and the rise of gunpowder. Which given the looming threat the Iron Bank seems to pose to what should be a remarkably stable and self sufficient war economy in Westeros are both curiously absent. But again, GRRM either doesn't seem to get the difference and/or why this sort of economy doesn't make sense in his setting, or he doesn't care. So yeah, they are mostly paying out of pocket. Which leads to lovely writing decisions such as levying a tax on the number of beds in inns and entry and exit fees for King's Landing... in the middle of a civil war... when the city is in imminent danger of being put under siege... which somehow worked to replenish the treasury... Yeah... Sorry for the rant, but for someone who puts so much emphasis on this in his worldbuilding, I find it odd that GRRM consistently gets feudal economies wrong.
@@leftwardglobe1643untill read Dothraki (which there is nothing but savagery and nothing resembles Mongols cuz i am ONE). I thought westerosi logistics were shit and trooper classes, hierarchies and command structure seemed terrible or shallow. Now i understand that GRRM onlu put efford into his favorite Blackwoods and others. Most of eastren societies are left on rule of cool rather than realistic he desperatly put himself as . In short. He is terrible as culture
@@temuulenamartuvshin1204 Oh, I know it doesn't end there, and I think the same applies to most factions and ideas in his worldbuilding. He doesn't understand religion either, for example, and it shows. This honestly wouldn't bother me near as much if he didn't put so much time and effort into talking about his approach to worldbuilding. He clearly has a passion for it, he just doesn't have the drive (or is alternatively incapable of filtering out his own biases) to research and find reasonable ways to implement cultural, economic and religious dynamics in his setting. There's a lot of detail and very little sense. However, a setting this devoid of sense still makes dollars, and it, along with similar pop-culture, unfortunately colors the perception of the things it uses for its themes.
One thing to remember is they need to get to your army and need protection. So they slow down your army or at least part of it or you have to let your army stop to wait for supplies which also adds supplies.
Cool video! One thing you need to consider concerning the home trip tho, is loses. You're definitely not going back with as many soldiers as you had to begin with due to combat casualties, desertion, and of course deaths from starvation, disease, etc. I'm also not sure sellswords necessarily return with their employer's host after war has ended - at the very least it would seem a bit overly generous to pay and feed them for a further +60 days without them actually having a job to do. The tradition seems to be just letting them run amok in the Riverlands.
To add a bit og context, the amount theorised for buying food isn't that ruinous for a wealthy house like the Hightowers, given the fact that we know from the Jaime chapters in Storm of Swords that 300 gold dragons is a respectable ransom for a knight.
I remember reading an English source a few weeks ago that said the ransom for a French king was so high it prevented them from going to war the year after.
One issue is that levy troops are drawn from the peasant farmers. Particularly from the age group that provides the bulk of be the heavy labor. In long campaigns this as will effect agriculture production.
Bro this is top tier video, You're combining my favorite things, game of thrones, economics and warfare.\ This is the first video I have seen of you and you earned my sub
Yay, im so glad that you made this video after i made my comment that the dragons are probably cheaper than maintaing a professional standing army. We didnt even include the pay for the soldiers. Thank you and great video
I was just looking for this comment! Yes many knights would contribute to the upkeep of the army and quite many man-at-arms would be their vassals and hence work for no pay or very little, but there's still a significant portion of any army that isn't just peasants who would be expecting a steady salary, however small and it might be paid in salt like some of the Romans did instead of coins, but still.
Love the details you go through cant wait for more. Though maybe one thing that could factor into the carts is who is giving the food, they could have supply depots ahead of them of they march in allied territory/everyone is scared of the 20k army marching past their castle so hands their grain over.
I'll be honest, even though I know how important logistics is, but the first time I have ever seen it in visual media was from watching The Tudors Season, during the Siege of Boulogne . It did not portray the defending force suffering from starvation, but the besieging English army was also suffering from the effects of lack of food. And it was from, I understood the disadvantage of having a large ass army in one location for a long time.
Wow, you got additional 600 new subs since I subscribed at 2.17k on 24-10-2024. Soon you will get over 10k subs and in a year maybe over 100k subs and you might not be able to reply to me anymore. So before that happens, I pray and hope your channel will be successful and this will provide you with a lot of income and you will be able to do this about twice per month 😊.
@@nodinitiative Wow this really means alot. Firstly I want to thank you for sticking around so far, I'm trying my best to do 2 videos a month( doing this on the sideline for fun and live and all that jazz) but one day this will definitely be possible and maybe 3 vids per month. Then also I will do my best to search for your comments in my videos and always try to reply. Thanks again for the kind words and the support!
The most interesting thing about logistics of the medieval time period is how little nobles understood hunger. In the art of war Sun tzu went to great lengths to get the idea of hunger which of course a young emperor has literally never experienced into his head. Its so important it could make or break a campaign
This gives us a good sense for why historical lords often were expected to supplement or substitute their contributions of warriors with money and supplies. Medieval England had a whole system where kings would expect money and supplies when they called the banners, then used those resources to outfit a smaller, more professional and flexible military force. They reasoned a smaller force of trained knights and mercenaries was far superior to a larger mix of knights and levies, and they could keep them in the field far longer. Also shows why ransoming and plundering were so necessary to medieval troops. They needed to get out of the hole this damned battle put them in.
@@ProbablyTrueTales it was called scutage. It was especially common In the early and mid medieval period (King Henry 1-Henry 3) but started to die at as the Magna Carta and parliament made more regular taxes that could provide the king with income.
It has always surprised me how small medieval armies were. From a population of millions they could barely rise 1% if lucky. Probably it wasnt for lack of men but for lack of supplies.
This was an excellent video, and I appreciate someone diving into all the logistics of running an army. One thing I think is often overlooked however is casualties, not just through battle but through desertion, sickness, and plain accidents, I think many of those casualties made it slightly more bearable for the Lord's coffers
This is the main reason why in medieval times the vast majority of battles where fought by armies of hundreds at most and very rarely more than a thousend on each side logistics in ancient warfare where a nightmare 😂
@@MarceloHenriqueSoaresdaSilva I mean, he knows that armies need to eat and that they are paid, sure. But he has no real concept of how that would happen in the type of system he's writing for. Same for taxes, land ownership and how nobles behave generally.
3:10 just learned this recently : apparently they've found at least one mobile oven, for this purpose! I suppose fresh bread was such an important staple that they would make these little stone ovens that they could bring with them.
@@ProbablyTrueTales The History Squad channel is where I found that out if you want to take a peek. It was really just mentioned in passing but still worth the watch Also binged all your content to completion. Nice work!
There’s a very good reason that standing professional armies are a relatively new thing! It is insanely expensive for a king or lord to feed, and pay hundreds or thousands of men during times of peace that basically do nothing but stand around looking menacing! And maybe go after some poachers or bandits
Wasn't it GRR who famously asked about the economics of Middle Earth .. great idea for a video, glad I found the channel, looks like you've got a bunch of interesting ones. 10 outa 10 on the art too .. perfectly done, love the style. They need you on staff to call out some of the BS teleportation .. I like the show, but after all the work GRR did to make that such a part of GoT, I wish it carried over to the show more.
Thanks a bunch, I agree on the teleporting, makes you wonder if the showrunners actually did any research on travel times, or they just wanted to get it over with😅
This is why the plot armour for Dorne is so op that they mass migrated to the desert and mountains during Aegon's conquest as if the logistics were not a problem. And then once the Targaryen dragon left, they easily took back the castles that they left behind, which mind you, by the time were probably stationed with armies from the other kingdoms. Not to mention that many Dornish castles are coastal, and can be easily supplied with food and troops with the fleets from the other kingdoms(Ironborn, Velaryon, Old Town, Arbor, etc).
Yea, by making the videos and doing research on various stuff it really makes you se the little thing that GRR Martin skipped or changed based on what is needed for the story.
@@ProbablyTrueTaleshe kinda retconned Dorne’s plot armor later on with the rule of Daeron I. The dude conquered dorne in a year (WITHOUT DRAGONS) and then keeled over shortly after.
Personally I'd say that the initial invasion of Dorne under Aegon failing makes perfect sense because if you read between the lines in Aegon's Conquest where the Targaryen army takes heavy casualties every time the enemy doesn't obligingly line up to get incinerated (not just against the Dornish, but also the Stormlanders and Ironmen), it becomes pretty clear that Aegon the Conqueror was actually something of a military incompetent who was coasting on having dragons. A good administrator, but a terrible military leader.
@@Chimjjl The thing is, the Targaryen army wasn't really fighting the Dornish in the open field, they were fighting as defenders in siege warfare, which had the advantage stacked towards them. It makes little sense that the Dornish were able to easily siege down castles and cities they abandoned that were now stationed by the Targaryen army, so quickly in fact that the defender didn't even have enough time to send ravens for reinforcement and wait for the dragons to arrive.
@@zinanmo That part sounds pretty believable TBH. Castles with secret routes for escape is a classic even in real life, and it would only be more prevalent in a fantasy setting like ASOIAF. Since the Dornish army was still intact, it's hardly much of a stretch for them to use such passages to take the Targaryen garrisons by surprise, and it would absolutely fit Dorne's style to have them in the first place. Especially with the guys put in charge of the occupation being a Crownlander without any local knowledge and a completely untested steward of the Reach because Aegon incinerated the previous ruler.
All this talk of baggage trains makes me laugh when I think to Tywin’s tent in Season 1 when he has a big wooden table, chairs for everyone as I’m pretty sure there was sideboards and other pretty big items of furniture in there too!
There's an old adage, often attributed to Napoleon and Fedrick the Great, (two of the Greatest Western Military leaders of their time" that “an army marches on its stomach” showing how well they understood the cost of war and maintaining an effective army
When supple lines get longer they get easier to break. If they are about 2/3 of the way there and you hit the supple line days away, they are going to be hit with no food for a few days. If you keep it up you can completely break the line and starve the army. Also some knights were paid for fighting if they had no lands to make them money.
Yea I wouldn’t want to be part of the logistics team. Although the field of fire from GOT final seasons dit not change much of the plot, i think it was still a nice touch to see the baggage train being destroyed.
also, after a siege your army can sack the enemy's possessions, bitterbridge and maybe tumbleton may have lessened the amount of money the hightowers spent on their soldiers.
It’s actually criminal what GRRM did with Aegon II,dude grew up in flea bottom drunk and among peasants. He would have taken thousands of those gold dragons the green council stole and throw the greatest parties around the continent. If in fact Rhaenyra or her bastards dared harming him or his brothers like bitchboy crispian warned he could raise 3 ormund Hightower armies just by the gold he could store on the back of sunfyre or just imagine how much gold,mama vhagar could carry.
I think most armies will send parties ahead of the main army to set depots buying from the locals or confiscate food. In medieval ages 80-90% of the population lived in rural areas and most being farmers. So they will sell to the army their stocks at higher prices.
aded to all of that, even the loyal troops had to be paid . their would be twice the ammount of horses or other draft animals (ox or mules generaly) . You probably can cut down on the cost of food be resuplying in already established supply point on the way (if you're lord was smart . That's how the roman legion could walk and work as well as they did), and be allowing your troups to "requistion" suply in ennemy terrtory (not like you could stop them) . And be having you're army NOT gather 60 days away from your target, and be not having all of it walking the same road .
So a few points that occur to me. First, ASOIAF and its associated stories are mudpunk, not medieval fantasy. The armies cost whatever is convenient for the plot and exist in the numbers needed for said plot. Everything must be taken with a grain of salt. Second, levies are not - just - untrained conscripts. These men are probably reasonably well trained and equipped in the sense they're part time soldiers providing a semi regular kit. Thirdly, mercenaries are most definitely not secondary to knights. Professional soldiers often brought skills, a vast set of utility options, and often simple experience that could provide a very high quality backbone. Fourth, horses are too valuable and expensive to use hauling baggage. They'd use mules or donkeys, oxen, and even dogs before them, though some horses would and could be used. But it's just not really economical to have either expensive farm implements or expensive military assets stuck dragging wagons. Fifth, each knight would likely have two horses minimum, plus a squire, and, depending on their wealth and status, about two servants. For a minimum of three horses and up to eight. The servants could also be men-at-arms (though only rarely, for the wealthiest knights) and would have two horses each, along with a spare for the squire if the boy was old enough to see direct combat.
Baggage train is orders of magnitude greater than that size. Thats the number of carts you need rolling into camp EVERY day, but they have to make the trip to your army as well, and then the trip back for more. Worst case an at the end of the campaign they have to go back to Oldtown for supplies meaning you need 120 times that number of carts (60 days there, 60 days back) plus the additional fodder for the trip. Even if you have supply depots stages, which you definitely would have if you were even marginally intelligent, then you are still looking at a supply depot every...10 days? No that's too much for comfort. Lets say one every 5 days. Oh and we are going to need men to guard these supply posts so enemy raiders don't burn them. Which is exactly what they are going to be trying. Oh and someone has to guard the supply convos, so add in mouths for that...oh and they have to make the trip back and forth as well as even empty carts are still a great target for enemies....
If they're like the romans they'll have soldiers guarding the supply wagons along with fortified supply depots for quicker resupply that need to be manned and defended
Yes this is one way to do it, but we don’t know the weight of a gold westerosi coin, so we would use a medieval equivalent, the Gold Rose Noble from England weighed approximately 7.735 Grams, meaning in total the hold could weigh between 30.8kg-33.2kg. So in todays value that is roughly +-$2,823,808.
and from whom are they buying all this grain? i wonder how agriculture was affected during the Dance of The Dragons, considering that the two most productive regions of the kingdom, the riverlands and the reach, are deeply involved in the conflict. Also, the Westerlands were torn down by the ironborn and Dorne is not famous by its endless resources. Only the north and the vale can support some supply chains and at higher costs
Great point! The Dance of the Dragons would've crushed agriculture in key regions like the Riverlands and the Reach. With raids, battles, and destruction everywhere, securing supplies from places like the North and the Vale would’ve been tough and costly. Logistics in wartime was no joke! Probably why starving armies just ended up eating their horses.
This issue would become more and more an problem as the war drags along, but in the initial phases it seems that both sides did not do much to destroy each others economies or food productions, probably due to reasons of legitimacy and retaining good will among those lords and other major players still biding their time on the sidelines. Less burning fields and sacked villages and more draining the local granaries...
That's was once aspect about David Eddings' works. War was followed by famine, because war disrupts agriculture. The Eddings books are not perfect, but that was one thing I think Eddings got right.
In some cases, employers-whether monarchs or city-states-did supply provisions, particularly for larger or more formal campaigns. For instance, contracts might specify that food, horses, or other logistical support would be provided by the hiring power. However, it wasn't uncommon for mercenaries to resort to plundering or extorting villages for supplies if their employers failed to meet the terms of their contracts.
Glad you mentioned it, check out my video on just that topic. The Cost of Keeping Dragons in House of the Dragon ruclips.net/video/uRTUqBfou4Y/видео.html
A medieval two-horse cart typically had a load capacity of about 500 kg (1,102 lbs). This was sufficient for transporting supplies or goods across a daily distance of around 18-30 km (11-18 miles), depending on terrain and conditions.
The depiction of the golden dragon's value in the show is completely out of whack saddly, not sure why. The most eggregious exemple is Davos bribing 2 golden cloaks 15 gold dragons EACH while pretending to be a small time smuggler, said gold cloak implying it was the standard price for such low stake bribery.
Not even just the show. The books are crazy with it as well in the original releases. Sandor Clegane won 40 000 gold dragons from the joust at the Tourney of the Hand,and archer Anguy wins 10 000 dragons off the archery tournament. 0 chance Sandor and Anguy won enough money to fund an actual private army off one tourney.
Noobs talk about tactics and “pros”talk about logistics. A real professional juggles between the two while trying not to die from dysentery while at the same time messages close confidants so that political rivals won’t frame them. Oh and overseeing punishments and other stuff.
What do YOU think is the most overlooked part of maintaining an army? And thanks for watching everyone!
the logi and training
Oh yes training is a big one.
when all the fighting's done and you tell everyone to pack up and go home two things
one is i imagine a decent amount might not make it home
secondly you've depleted your serfs so you can't get as much serf work done
@emilianorios4761 Yes this is a great mention👌🏻 one could also imagine that many would not have a home to go to also.
@@ProbablyTrueTales I think it is morale and knowledge of enemy, their tactics and trainings need to be explained to our soldiers for them having better chance of fighting
Amateurs talk about tactics, professionals study logistics. An army cannot fight hungry, without weapons, no gold to keep them motivated and no horses to move supplies.
Well said my good fellow!
Ever since the Russian army totally bogged down on the road trying to invade Ukraine everyone has been absolutely obsessed with the importance of logistics. Tires went flat and no way to pull trucks out of line to replace them. Soldiers raiding grocery stores after rations all eaten.
I imagine Westeros would not need to worry about drones.
@@movieloverfan18 Its why Ukraine lasted so long in the early war without UN and US support. The russian supply line was bogged down slowing their advanced allowing the spirited and ferocious ukraine defense to dig in and hold.
They fought like dragons holding ground without advanced anti-tank weapons, with minimal training, and no US intelligence. Once they had that they started pushing back and even today have pushed into russia which is crazy
Donkeys move armies, and what's weird we don't see any donkeys in Westeros
As a famous average-height-for -the-time Corsican once said: "an army marches on its stomach."
Being a university graduate of supply chain management and being a fan of history. This video is absolute bliss
Wow thanks🎉 glad you enjoyed it!
Has a fellow manager let me tell you. Logistics are far easier when you can loot the others 😅
That's why most medieval armies up until the modern period lived off the land they marched through. The armies that cared about not antagonizing the local population gave out orders that they had to pay for what they took and punished plundering. In times that were more dire, when the armies knew they would not get enough food, they just plundered the local population. Yes there were baggage trains, but hardly ever enough to really feed an army and much of what it carried was locally sourced.
I think A Song of Ice and Fire, especially A Feast For Crowd, had Westerosi countryside-especially war zones like Riverlands-being devastated due to plundering and raids. Entire brotherhood without Banners being made up of unpaid mercenaries, deserters, and bandits.
Depends the time because if we pick some nations like the ERE and even England in the late middle ages they have an logistic system that basically get supplies from their home country, the medieval period is not static and there differences by regions, nations, etc... and that is a thing that Martin tends to forgot or don't even know.
The Golden Company is the best professional army.
Great video once again.
Hey hey hey, no advertising around these parts buddy👉🏻😂
@@ProbablyTrueTales it's not just advertising it's the truth😄
Name one Pretender you managed to out on the throne🤔👉🏻👈🏻
@ProbablyTrueTales We only didn't succeed because of dishonor and cowards
The Amount Of Effort Bro Spends For Each Video Is Insane .
Thanks man👌🏻🎉
This is oversimpliefied and underestimated.
1. A soldier needs 2 pounds of grain, but also a pound of meat and 2 liters of ale/beer/wine.
2. There is multidude of unaccounted horses. Term "men-at-arms" refers to a soldier fighting on horseback while not beeing knighted. So here we have additional 3k horses. Also every selfrespecting knight would have a horse only for riding plus at least one warhorse for battle.
3. 24 km per day is a top speed for 20k army. It's more likely that average marching speed would be around 20 km/day. Plus rest days should be every 4 days. That is not only for the sake of the soldiers, but more so for the sake of the horses, and most of all for the carts - wooden axles tend to break very often.
4. You have not even touched the subject of buying weapons, armour, siege engines, scorpions, camping equipment, tools, etc. I understand that those costs are more to do with creating an army then with maintaining it, but they should also be included in the overall costs of the campaign.
Logistics is complicated.
Thanks for the feedback! You're absolutely right, logistics in war are incredibly complicated, and there are a lot of factors to consider beyond just grain. While I focused on the basics like feeding the army, it's true that soldiers in Westeros, much like in feudal societies, were often expected to bring their own armor and equipment. This reduced the direct cost on the lords, though there were still significant expenses for things like siege engines, scorpions, and maintaining camp.
As for the extra horses, especially for men-at-arms and knights, that's a great point! I could definitely expand on the number of horses and the costs involved in keeping them. Marching speed and rest days were another area where I simplified for clarity, but you're right-those axles would break more often than we'd like to think!
Much of the cost of the knights would be carried by the knights themselves as part of their service to their lord, this including the numbers of archers and infantry they take with them as their retinues. This is one of the advantages of the feudal army as it spreads the economic drain of war over your vassals, whom have their lands and titles just exactly for this reason.
I mean, the lord in question shouldn't be responsible for monetarily paying for arms and armor as levies in this type of system should be required to purchase and maintain that sort of gear themselves or otherwise be provided it by their immediate superiors as part of their obligations as peasants and vassals of the crown... but that's less an issue with your analysis than with GRRM's fundamental misunderstanding of how feudal economics and logistics worked historically.
The same applies to most of the foodstuffs aswell, as much of that is what "taxes" look like in feudal systems. The peasants are allowed to work and manage the land and have a stable life primarily in exchange for a portion of the food produced and fighting men in times of crisis.
There were taxes that collected money directly, but they weren't the norm. At least not in England. "Geld taxes," were usually reserved for emergency funds after the 12th Century and were rarely in effect to any substantial degree. There were also many ways of becoming exempt from them entirely, including military service. They were the exception rather than the rule.
So while that is the "worth" of the supplies needed, the actual amount of money being spent would be pretty minimal. You're only really paying out of pocket if you need mercenaries (which given the politics on display I think are a little overrepresented, but that's the least of our worries). Plus, if the crown is ever hurting for soldiers and can't afford mercenaries, they can usually find a workaround by providing extra incentives such as land grants or extra tax exemptions for the peasantry. Historically this worked pretty well.
We don't see war being as heavily dependent on gold and silver as it is in ASOIAF until the Napoleonic era. The reasons for this are A: feudalism died and the interconnected responsibilities of the different strata of society went with it, and B: war got really expensive and progressively more dependent on mass manufacturing. This is both due to professional armies becoming the norm rather than the exception and the rise of gunpowder. Which given the looming threat the Iron Bank seems to pose to what should be a remarkably stable and self sufficient war economy in Westeros are both curiously absent.
But again, GRRM either doesn't seem to get the difference and/or why this sort of economy doesn't make sense in his setting, or he doesn't care. So yeah, they are mostly paying out of pocket. Which leads to lovely writing decisions such as levying a tax on the number of beds in inns and entry and exit fees for King's Landing... in the middle of a civil war... when the city is in imminent danger of being put under siege... which somehow worked to replenish the treasury... Yeah...
Sorry for the rant, but for someone who puts so much emphasis on this in his worldbuilding, I find it odd that GRRM consistently gets feudal economies wrong.
@@leftwardglobe1643untill read Dothraki (which there is nothing but savagery and nothing resembles Mongols cuz i am ONE). I thought westerosi logistics were shit and trooper classes, hierarchies and command structure seemed terrible or shallow. Now i understand that GRRM onlu put efford into his favorite Blackwoods and others. Most of eastren societies are left on rule of cool rather than realistic he desperatly put himself as .
In short. He is terrible as culture
@@temuulenamartuvshin1204 Oh, I know it doesn't end there, and I think the same applies to most factions and ideas in his worldbuilding. He doesn't understand religion either, for example, and it shows.
This honestly wouldn't bother me near as much if he didn't put so much time and effort into talking about his approach to worldbuilding. He clearly has a passion for it, he just doesn't have the drive (or is alternatively incapable of filtering out his own biases) to research and find reasonable ways to implement cultural, economic and religious dynamics in his setting.
There's a lot of detail and very little sense. However, a setting this devoid of sense still makes dollars, and it, along with similar pop-culture, unfortunately colors the perception of the things it uses for its themes.
One thing to remember is they need to get to your army and need protection. So they slow down your army or at least part of it or you have to let your army stop to wait for supplies which also adds supplies.
This is why Tyrells are powerful.
True!
They literally have infinite food
And Hightowers
And then there's bobby b making the crown drown 7 million in debt
That’s the king I want. Not there for a long time but a fun time🎉
@@ProbablyTrueTales not really he rulled for 14 yrs that's pretty long for westeros standards
He's protected the crown by doing so as it will he the interest of the iron bank that the crowns runs smoothly
*protecting
Robert has to be the most broke king ever. We see by his tournament compared to Viserys
Cool video! One thing you need to consider concerning the home trip tho, is loses. You're definitely not going back with as many soldiers as you had to begin with due to combat casualties, desertion, and of course deaths from starvation, disease, etc. I'm also not sure sellswords necessarily return with their employer's host after war has ended - at the very least it would seem a bit overly generous to pay and feed them for a further +60 days without them actually having a job to do. The tradition seems to be just letting them run amok in the Riverlands.
Very true, thanks for the extra thoughts👌🏻
once the siege is over, you let the do a good long sack of the town. with some luck that pays for a large part of the campaign.
Btw most knights had multiple remounts so the grain demands would be even greater.
Nice observation! Yes this is true, and also most had a backup horse that was fast to run away in the case of a route.
The Squires night have some too
@@clydedoris5002The Knights squire
To add a bit og context, the amount theorised for buying food isn't that ruinous for a wealthy house like the Hightowers, given the fact that we know from the Jaime chapters in Storm of Swords that 300 gold dragons is a respectable ransom for a knight.
I remember reading an English source a few weeks ago that said the ransom for a French king was so high it prevented them from going to war the year after.
@@nickvanachthoven7252depends on the knight.
Your Videos are so high quality, cant wait for more videos❤❤❤❤
Thank you so much!!
One issue is that levy troops are drawn from the peasant farmers. Particularly from the age group that provides the bulk of be the heavy labor. In long campaigns this as will effect agriculture production.
Bro this is top tier video,
You're combining my favorite things, game of thrones, economics and warfare.\
This is the first video I have seen of you and you earned my sub
So glad you enjoyed🎉 thanks for the support
Yay, im so glad that you made this video after i made my comment that the dragons are probably cheaper than maintaing a professional standing army. We didnt even include the pay for the soldiers. Thank you and great video
Thank you for making the suggestion, I’m so glad you enjoyed the video, and stuck around to watch it🎉
@@ProbablyTrueTales you got yourself a lifetime subscriber!
I was just looking for this comment! Yes many knights would contribute to the upkeep of the army and quite many man-at-arms would be their vassals and hence work for no pay or very little, but there's still a significant portion of any army that isn't just peasants who would be expecting a steady salary, however small and it might be paid in salt like some of the Romans did instead of coins, but still.
Love the details you go through cant wait for more. Though maybe one thing that could factor into the carts is who is giving the food, they could have supply depots ahead of them of they march in allied territory/everyone is scared of the 20k army marching past their castle so hands their grain over.
I'll be honest, even though I know how important logistics is, but the first time I have ever seen it in visual media was from watching The Tudors Season, during the Siege of Boulogne .
It did not portray the defending force suffering from starvation, but the besieging English army was also suffering from the effects of lack of food.
And it was from, I understood the disadvantage of having a large ass army in one location for a long time.
Yes this is great, I honestly wish they dove more into these things in media, or at least a slight mention or visual que.
Wow, you got additional 600 new subs since I subscribed at 2.17k on 24-10-2024.
Soon you will get over 10k subs and in a year maybe over 100k subs and you might not be able to reply to me anymore.
So before that happens, I pray and hope your channel will be successful and this will provide you with a lot of income and you will be able to do this about twice per month 😊.
@@nodinitiative Wow this really means alot. Firstly I want to thank you for sticking around so far, I'm trying my best to do 2 videos a month( doing this on the sideline for fun and live and all that jazz) but one day this will definitely be possible and maybe 3 vids per month. Then also I will do my best to search for your comments in my videos and always try to reply. Thanks again for the kind words and the support!
The most interesting thing about logistics of the medieval time period is how little nobles understood hunger. In the art of war Sun tzu went to great lengths to get the idea of hunger which of course a young emperor has literally never experienced into his head. Its so important it could make or break a campaign
This gives us a good sense for why historical lords often were expected to supplement or substitute their contributions of warriors with money and supplies. Medieval England had a whole system where kings would expect money and supplies when they called the banners, then used those resources to outfit a smaller, more professional and flexible military force. They reasoned a smaller force of trained knights and mercenaries was far superior to a larger mix of knights and levies, and they could keep them in the field far longer.
Also shows why ransoming and plundering were so necessary to medieval troops. They needed to get out of the hole this damned battle put them in.
Thanks for the extra info, this was a very good read👌🏻
@@ProbablyTrueTales it was called scutage. It was especially common In the early and mid medieval period (King Henry 1-Henry 3) but started to die at as the Magna Carta and parliament made more regular taxes that could provide the king with income.
It has always surprised me how small medieval armies were. From a population of millions they could barely rise 1% if lucky. Probably it wasnt for lack of men but for lack of supplies.
Then why didn't Ormund Hightower just buy a fully decked out JAS 39 Gripen (which is more than a match to a dragon), is he stupid?
No one knows, and perhaps no one wil ever know.
This was an excellent video, and I appreciate someone diving into all the logistics of running an army. One thing I think is often overlooked however is casualties, not just through battle but through desertion, sickness, and plain accidents, I think many of those casualties made it slightly more bearable for the Lord's coffers
I think at some point they probably wanted a few people dead😂
This is awesome content, I hope you get a lot more subs because the art style and content are quite unique! Keep it up brother.
Thanks a bunch! Glad you're enjoying it! 🙏
This is the main reason why in medieval times the vast majority of battles where fought by armies of hundreds at most and very rarely more than a thousend on each side logistics in ancient warfare where a nightmare 😂
Imagine the battles in antiquety, the battles of the romans, or Alexander the great, could only imagine the headache of those logistics
Ah, the one thing G.R.R.M. understands the least, but talks about the most in his writing: Feudal economics.
Aint that the truth🎉
He understand partially
@@MarceloHenriqueSoaresdaSilva I mean, he knows that armies need to eat and that they are paid, sure. But he has no real concept of how that would happen in the type of system he's writing for. Same for taxes, land ownership and how nobles behave generally.
3:10 just learned this recently : apparently they've found at least one mobile oven, for this purpose!
I suppose fresh bread was such an important staple that they would make these little stone ovens that they could bring with them.
Nice thanks for sharing, that is so cool🎉
@@ProbablyTrueTales The History Squad channel is where I found that out if you want to take a peek. It was really just mentioned in passing but still worth the watch
Also binged all your content to completion. Nice work!
SO cool video ! may be somthing abut the ships and navy ?
Thanks for the suggestion!
Hi my brother from another mother amazing video keep it going my brother big love from Libya
Thanks for sending the love, glad you enjoyed👌🏻🎉
Love your Videos ❤❤❤❤ Keep Grinding
Appreciate it🎉
There’s a very good reason that standing professional armies are a relatively new thing! It is insanely expensive for a king or lord to feed, and pay hundreds or thousands of men during times of peace that basically do nothing but stand around looking menacing! And maybe go after some poachers or bandits
It’s a good thing they have those dragons to help pay for things 😂
I love the art and writing is great too!
Thank you so much, I’m glad you enjoyed it🎉
Wasn't it GRR who famously asked about the economics of Middle Earth .. great idea for a video, glad I found the channel, looks like you've got a bunch of interesting ones. 10 outa 10 on the art too .. perfectly done, love the style. They need you on staff to call out some of the BS teleportation .. I like the show, but after all the work GRR did to make that such a part of GoT, I wish it carried over to the show more.
Thanks a bunch, I agree on the teleporting, makes you wonder if the showrunners actually did any research on travel times, or they just wanted to get it over with😅
This video is great! Please make more asoiaf videos like this
Glad you enjoyed🎉 be sure to stick around, more interesting topics are on its way👌🏻
This is why the plot armour for Dorne is so op that they mass migrated to the desert and mountains during Aegon's conquest as if the logistics were not a problem. And then once the Targaryen dragon left, they easily took back the castles that they left behind, which mind you, by the time were probably stationed with armies from the other kingdoms. Not to mention that many Dornish castles are coastal, and can be easily supplied with food and troops with the fleets from the other kingdoms(Ironborn, Velaryon, Old Town, Arbor, etc).
Yea, by making the videos and doing research on various stuff it really makes you se the little thing that GRR Martin skipped or changed based on what is needed for the story.
@@ProbablyTrueTaleshe kinda retconned Dorne’s plot armor later on with the rule of Daeron I. The dude conquered dorne in a year (WITHOUT DRAGONS) and then keeled over shortly after.
Personally I'd say that the initial invasion of Dorne under Aegon failing makes perfect sense because if you read between the lines in Aegon's Conquest where the Targaryen army takes heavy casualties every time the enemy doesn't obligingly line up to get incinerated (not just against the Dornish, but also the Stormlanders and Ironmen), it becomes pretty clear that Aegon the Conqueror was actually something of a military incompetent who was coasting on having dragons.
A good administrator, but a terrible military leader.
@@Chimjjl The thing is, the Targaryen army wasn't really fighting the Dornish in the open field, they were fighting as defenders in siege warfare, which had the advantage stacked towards them. It makes little sense that the Dornish were able to easily siege down castles and cities they abandoned that were now stationed by the Targaryen army, so quickly in fact that the defender didn't even have enough time to send ravens for reinforcement and wait for the dragons to arrive.
@@zinanmo That part sounds pretty believable TBH. Castles with secret routes for escape is a classic even in real life, and it would only be more prevalent in a fantasy setting like ASOIAF. Since the Dornish army was still intact, it's hardly much of a stretch for them to use such passages to take the Targaryen garrisons by surprise, and it would absolutely fit Dorne's style to have them in the first place.
Especially with the guys put in charge of the occupation being a Crownlander without any local knowledge and a completely untested steward of the Reach because Aegon incinerated the previous ruler.
Love this!
Bread king! King Bread!
All this talk of baggage trains makes me laugh when I think to Tywin’s tent in Season 1 when he has a big wooden table, chairs for everyone as I’m pretty sure there was sideboards and other pretty big items of furniture in there too!
Dang now that you mention it, probably took the space of 5 soldiers just so he could have space for his undies
There's an old adage, often attributed to Napoleon and Fedrick the Great, (two of the Greatest Western Military leaders of their time" that “an army marches on its stomach” showing how well they understood the cost of war and maintaining an effective army
Nice👌🏻, I sure as hell wouldn’t have wanted to be the one managing all this logistics I can tell you that much.
11:12 I'm so f*kin dead xDD thank you : D
When supple lines get longer they get easier to break. If they are about 2/3 of the way there and you hit the supple line days away, they are going to be hit with no food for a few days. If you keep it up you can completely break the line and starve the army.
Also some knights were paid for fighting if they had no lands to make them money.
Yea I wouldn’t want to be part of the logistics team. Although the field of fire from GOT final seasons dit not change much of the plot, i think it was still a nice touch to see the baggage train being destroyed.
also, after a siege your army can sack the enemy's possessions, bitterbridge and maybe tumbleton may have lessened the amount of money the hightowers spent on their soldiers.
Very fascinant 👏 🔥 👏 🔥 👏 🔥 👏
It’s actually criminal what GRRM did with Aegon II,dude grew up in flea bottom drunk and among peasants. He would have taken thousands of those gold dragons the green council stole and throw the greatest parties around the continent. If in fact Rhaenyra or her bastards dared harming him or his brothers like bitchboy crispian warned he could raise 3 ormund Hightower armies just by the gold he could store on the back of sunfyre or just imagine how much gold,mama vhagar could carry.
Never thought of the weight dragons could carry.
I think most armies will send parties ahead of the main army to set depots buying from the locals or confiscate food. In medieval ages 80-90% of the population lived in rural areas and most being farmers. So they will sell to the army their stocks at higher prices.
amazing channel
Thanks alot🎉
That is, a lot of money. Great video.
I love all you’re asoiaf videos
Glad you enjoyed🎉
the famous Tsiolkovsky horse fodder equation
I liked it pretty much 😊
aded to all of that, even the loyal troops had to be paid . their would be twice the ammount of horses or other draft animals (ox or mules generaly) . You probably can cut down on the cost of food be resuplying in already established supply point on the way (if you're lord was smart . That's how the roman legion could walk and work as well as they did), and be allowing your troups to "requistion" suply in ennemy terrtory (not like you could stop them) . And be having you're army NOT gather 60 days away from your target, and be not having all of it walking the same road .
So a few points that occur to me.
First, ASOIAF and its associated stories are mudpunk, not medieval fantasy. The armies cost whatever is convenient for the plot and exist in the numbers needed for said plot. Everything must be taken with a grain of salt.
Second, levies are not - just - untrained conscripts. These men are probably reasonably well trained and equipped in the sense they're part time soldiers providing a semi regular kit.
Thirdly, mercenaries are most definitely not secondary to knights. Professional soldiers often brought skills, a vast set of utility options, and often simple experience that could provide a very high quality backbone.
Fourth, horses are too valuable and expensive to use hauling baggage. They'd use mules or donkeys, oxen, and even dogs before them, though some horses would and could be used. But it's just not really economical to have either expensive farm implements or expensive military assets stuck dragging wagons.
Fifth, each knight would likely have two horses minimum, plus a squire, and, depending on their wealth and status, about two servants. For a minimum of three horses and up to eight. The servants could also be men-at-arms (though only rarely, for the wealthiest knights) and would have two horses each, along with a spare for the squire if the boy was old enough to see direct combat.
Baggage train is orders of magnitude greater than that size. Thats the number of carts you need rolling into camp EVERY day, but they have to make the trip to your army as well, and then the trip back for more. Worst case an at the end of the campaign they have to go back to Oldtown for supplies meaning you need 120 times that number of carts (60 days there, 60 days back) plus the additional fodder for the trip. Even if you have supply depots stages, which you definitely would have if you were even marginally intelligent, then you are still looking at a supply depot every...10 days? No that's too much for comfort. Lets say one every 5 days. Oh and we are going to need men to guard these supply posts so enemy raiders don't burn them. Which is exactly what they are going to be trying. Oh and someone has to guard the supply convos, so add in mouths for that...oh and they have to make the trip back and forth as well as even empty carts are still a great target for enemies....
If they're like the romans they'll have soldiers guarding the supply wagons along with fortified supply depots for quicker resupply that need to be manned and defended
You can of course also just eat the horse, happens plenty in the books! 😂
Valid option😂
M&B: Bannerlord has taught me well😅
after watching this video, i'm convinced the battle of the field of fire was the biggest money loss in a single day in westerossi history.
Should have converted the gold to weight and figure out the weight and gold in today’s cost
Yes this is one way to do it, but we don’t know the weight of a gold westerosi coin, so we would use a medieval equivalent, the Gold Rose Noble from England weighed approximately 7.735 Grams, meaning in total the hold could weigh between 30.8kg-33.2kg. So in todays value that is roughly +-$2,823,808.
20mil$ is not that expensive for one of the biggest armies in conflict tho
Gimme 2🤔
Also horses dont need to feed from the carts, you can just leave them to pasture around camp...
Sure you could do that, but you would need a lot of pasture land to feed 1000+ horses their daily amount
and from whom are they buying all this grain? i wonder how agriculture was affected during the Dance of The Dragons, considering that the two most productive regions of the kingdom, the riverlands and the reach, are deeply involved in the conflict. Also, the Westerlands were torn down by the ironborn and Dorne is not famous by its endless resources. Only the north and the vale can support some supply chains and at higher costs
Great point! The Dance of the Dragons would've crushed agriculture in key regions like the Riverlands and the Reach. With raids, battles, and destruction everywhere, securing supplies from places like the North and the Vale would’ve been tough and costly. Logistics in wartime was no joke! Probably why starving armies just ended up eating their horses.
This issue would become more and more an problem as the war drags along, but in the initial phases it seems that both sides did not do much to destroy each others economies or food productions, probably due to reasons of legitimacy and retaining good will among those lords and other major players still biding their time on the sidelines. Less burning fields and sacked villages and more draining the local granaries...
Most population being farmers. Very few living in cities.
That's was once aspect about David Eddings' works. War was followed by famine, because war disrupts agriculture. The Eddings books are not perfect, but that was one thing I think Eddings got right.
How did Tywin maintain his army during war of five kings
Great, RUclipsr have discovered logistics.
What about Aregons Tax policy?
Good day to the Narrator, quick question, is the Narrator South African? 🇿🇦
Good day to you too sir! Yes this narrator does appear to be from the land of which you speak🎉
Dont forget that dysentery killed more soldiers then battle ever could.
Going home is less expensive because everyone is dead
At this point i know more about G RR Martin fictional lore than actual real history
I mean I don’t see a problem with that😂
If only the show referenced this more than sapphic pecking.
😂
An army marches on its stomach
You can say that again😂
You forgot about the camp wives 😜😜😜
Don't forget water!
Combat is one of the least things happening in campain
Are the mercenaries responsible for their own food? If so that would lower cost a little
No sellswords require food and pay unfortunately.
@@ProbablyTrueTales historically did medieval European mercenaries get supplied by their employers?
In some cases, employers-whether monarchs or city-states-did supply provisions, particularly for larger or more formal campaigns. For instance, contracts might specify that food, horses, or other logistical support would be provided by the hiring power. However, it wasn't uncommon for mercenaries to resort to plundering or extorting villages for supplies if their employers failed to meet the terms of their contracts.
Huh, what about the dragon they had with them, Tessarion? How much does it cost to feed her?
Glad you mentioned it, check out my video on just that topic. The Cost of Keeping Dragons in House of the Dragon
ruclips.net/video/uRTUqBfou4Y/видео.html
Ur math is a bit wrong on the karts part. Carts could carry a tonne or 2 worth of stuff. 500kg is very little.
A medieval two-horse cart typically had a load capacity of about 500 kg (1,102 lbs). This was sufficient for transporting supplies or goods across a daily distance of around 18-30 km (11-18 miles), depending on terrain and conditions.
W o W
👉🏻👈🏻
"Amateurs talk swords professionals talk bread"
(Yes yes, I'm smrt!-))
i belive crown is 2 million gold in debt to lannister and 4 million to bank
well imp said it they can always sell the crow to lannisters ohh wait
Feeding a Army is like Feeding a Army 😂😂😂
Thank you for using elephants instead of those weird made up European numbers
No problem😘
Wait tell he finds out what the roman empire did
Minecraft is full of still water 💀
Food decided outcome 😂
they are super super rich, how much they have in their bank?
I think they might have at least a few gold pouches, don’t know the full amount them Hightowers play their cards real close.
@@ProbablyTrueTales only the iron bank can tell us the true amout they have
The depiction of the golden dragon's value in the show is completely out of whack saddly, not sure why.
The most eggregious exemple is Davos bribing 2 golden cloaks 15 gold dragons EACH while pretending to be a small time smuggler, said gold cloak implying it was the standard price for such low stake bribery.
Not even just the show. The books are crazy with it as well in the original releases.
Sandor Clegane won 40 000 gold dragons from the joust at the Tourney of the Hand,and archer Anguy wins 10 000 dragons off the archery tournament.
0 chance Sandor and Anguy won enough money to fund an actual private army off one tourney.
What is your nationality? Accent sound Afrikaans
👉🏻👈🏻
Noobs talk about tactics and “pros”talk about logistics. A real professional juggles between the two while trying not to die from dysentery while at the same time messages close confidants so that political rivals won’t frame them. Oh and overseeing punishments and other stuff.
Yea I think I’ll double it and give it to the next guy
This is where CK3 falls flat for me. There's no actual military strategy, just dynasty management
Maybe a new dlc in 3years or a mod would complete the experience. One could only hope.
The supply mechanic is fine to me
if im marching solely on bread alone, im walking back home on day 3.
At least you will last 3 days
Frist
Thanks for rushing😂