cool outsider. It sort of seems like an anti-marionette, where you have to convince someone that you are on their team, rather than someone convincing you
If the conversation happens where someone is trying to convince the other that they are on their team, I would say it is more similar than not. You are comparing two different perspectives of a mechanic, which is why they don't seem similar. Really you should be comparing the two roles that receive the power. The marionette bestows knowledge onto the demon which is essentially what the ogre's power is imitating. They already know the other is on their team and can choose to convince them: If you are a demon: You try to convince the Marionette that they are on your team. If you are an ogre: You try to convince the person you picked that you are on their team. The only difference in this mechanic is 1 way, you know you are evil, the other you don't. Obviously being the demon comes with an entire host of other mechanics, but boiling it down to this one it is easy to see how this was isolated and implemented.
@@switters8679 yeah when i talk about an anti-marionette, i just mean a counterpart to it rather than something completely different. Maybe i used the wrong term
Weird demon and minions to choose. I would be a bit upset if i learned i was the vigor with minions that don't actually have abilities. I know they still poison townsfolk neighbors, but it feels severly nerfed to only have minions that have no ongoing ability.
We weren't upset, because that's not a fun way to play, but admittedly it was a little bit deflating. I joked with Jen that if he killed both of us Minions, we could have a budget No Dashii, lol.
The more I learn about the Marionette, the less I think it is anything but a _bad_ thing for the evil team. It removes an outsider (good for the good team), takes up a minion slot (so effectively removes an extra ability), is next to the demon (so, if sus'd out, gives strong info to the good team), and is no more bad for the good team than a Drunk as long as he thinks he's on the good team. ANd once he knows he's on the evil team, he does nothing that any other evil player doesn't do. So everything the Marionette does is better for the good team than the Drunk is! I feel like the demon should either have input on the info the Marionette gets, or should know what that information is (that is, what the ST tells the Marionette should be told to the Demon), or maybe something really wonky. The "really wonky" would be instead of the previous ideas, but would be something like, "When the Marionette dies by execution, the nearest good player to the demon on that side becomes the new Marionette. The dead Marionette may become good; he does not know if this happens." The "may" is up to the ST, obviously, and is there so that the ST can choose to make a Marionette who never knew his true alignment never finds out he was ever the Marionette, but can also leave a Marionette who _might_ know with reason _not_ to immediately announce. This can also help rebalance the teams if too many are evil after the effect happens.
@@SceneTurkey Oh, good. I thought I heard Ben say it does that in this video. My bad. The rest of my point still stands: the Marionette is actively worse for the evil team than the drunk is, because it's essentially an evil drunk who doesn't know what team he's on and can thus work against his own team until he knows, has no power, and can reveal to the good team where the demon is if sus'd out. I feel like it needs to _do_ something. Because the theory that "he'll make himself look innocent" doesn't really work because any minion will pretend a good role, and may have _better_ bluff info since he isn't getting "drunk" info.
@@segevstormlord3713 I agree for the most part, but some people are just bad at hiding that they are evil. Mechanic-wise, the marionette is probably the worst minion, but taking the human element into account, a player who is bad at faking good will do a great job throwing the scent another direction with their false info/ability.
This isn’t the first one I’ve watched of this channel but just wanted to say that I am going through a really hard time and watching these videos give me cheerful thing to watch.
The fun thing is with their discussion about how useless the Vigormortis ability is in this setup they totally ignored that they could have easily poisioned the King. Of course only by either not selling Summoner or keeping the Baron alive a little bit longer.
Demon idea, Dragon: Once per game at night you can choose to kill 1 player and both of their neighbors (simulating a dragon's conical breath attack in DnD). It's like a Po but selection is more restrictive and you don't have to charge.
imo it's *absolutely* rough to do so, but Vigormortis + Baron isn't necessarily that bad - it lets the Vigormortis do what their main gimmick is supposed to be, and try to take that last Outsider claim, like how Viva La Sam did in this game, although obviously that plan didn't exactly work out. ... I think that this script in particular would appreciate an Imp in that slot instead, as Outsider ambiguity is already present with the Drunk, while Imp benefits from Marionette's social trust and Baron's lack of ability - plus, it lets them bluff weird King/Choirboy shenanigans, and dodge Fortune Teller info or an unfortunate placement next to the Empath or Shugenja.
Maybe. It depends if I want them to know they're drunk or poisoned, or if I want them to think that they are their own red herring. There are a lot of things at play here and I can't give a definitive answer unless I have more specific info. - Ben
Well, now I've got to rename my homebrew demon... I get why you're the same alignment so that your friends, but since I'm reading this as a play on the red and blue ogres of Japanese fairy-tale it's a little sad it's not opposite alignment except for in the recluse state... although, I guess that does still line up with the story in it's own way...
@@malvinafis6907 In a world where you have something that can change alignment, if the ogre picks a starting evil player then you end up in that situation anyway.
I think it's a matter of knowledge rather than alignment. If the ogre picks an evil neither the evil nor the ogre have perfect knowledge (even a spy/widow won't know who the ogre picked unless the storyteller notifies them) so the evil won't fully trust them and the ogre can't organize. (Similar to the marionette but the bonus there is the poisoned info) If an ogre joins the alignment of someone who actively changes Iike a mazepholes target, goon, or cult leader, then their ride or die will know they have 2 votes regardless of what's going on. (Sort of like that second evil team from that "Broomstick Mafia" video) It's the lack of ambiguity and the ability to pivot makes it a mess compared to the new rule
just thought of something how would this work. If the choirboy was executed . and then the demon killed the king.....would the cannibal get the demon name? or say the king was executed and then the cannibal was killed by the demon. Would the chairboy get the demon name?
I'd say first scenario, yes. The cannibal is acting as the choirboy, and so when the king dies, they get the demon's name. The second scenario, the king wasn't killed by the demon - the cannibal was. The cannibal is always the cannibal, even if they happen to be borrowing another character's ability. So no name for the choirboy.
Why is there a jinx between a pit hag and turning an already evil player into the ogre. That seems pointless. Why would you turn a fellow minion into the ogre or a mez turned player into the ogre. The only other applications are cult leader, goon, evil townsfolk and cannibal. An unfortunate situation if you pit hag one of those players but I don’t think that should be jinxed out. I guess an argument could be made for evil townsfolk? Am I missing something?
@@Nemilimehow would the pit-hag ogre turn good? The pit-hag/ogre jinx makes the ogre choice a formality if a minion is changed and chooses good (they won't change alignment)
@@PheonixRise666The jinx is: Pit-Hag (Jinx): If the Pit-Hag turns an evil player into the Ogre, they can’t turn good due to their own ability. If this wasn't the case the Pit-Hag could make themselves into the ogre then pick a good player and then turn good and get town to execute the demon and therefore win with the good team by switching allegiance.
I kinda love the idea of a canibal eating an already evil ogre or an evil bluffing ogre so you think you are on someones team but are actually not. Malashan could have been the demon with rez marionette, poisoning edd who stays good when they ogre pick the demon.
A Cannibal that wakes up with the Ogre's ability can always ensure they stay good by choosing the executed Ogre. If the Ogre is evil, the Cannibal is poisoned and doesn't actually have the Ogre's ability.
Question about jinx, what would happen if an ogre picked a goon? There should be a jinx there as the ogre would have no way of knowing what alignment the goon is (like the recluse).
The Ogre never knows what team they're on. That's literally the whole point of the character. It's not like the Recluse, because the Goon always knows what team they're on, whereas the Recluse doesn't know if they're registering as good or evil. - Ben
vigor with baron and marionette is pretty rough
Vigor on this script might have been a little weak tbh, but the quadruple Ogre confirmation was rough regardless.
By the time that had happened, the storytellers were already all but calling the game in good's favour due to the sketchy lift that day anyway.
cool outsider. It sort of seems like an anti-marionette, where you have to convince someone that you are on their team, rather than someone convincing you
If the conversation happens where someone is trying to convince the other that they are on their team, I would say it is more similar than not. You are comparing two different perspectives of a mechanic, which is why they don't seem similar. Really you should be comparing the two roles that receive the power. The marionette bestows knowledge onto the demon which is essentially what the ogre's power is imitating. They already know the other is on their team and can choose to convince them:
If you are a demon: You try to convince the Marionette that they are on your team.
If you are an ogre: You try to convince the person you picked that you are on their team.
The only difference in this mechanic is 1 way, you know you are evil, the other you don't. Obviously being the demon comes with an entire host of other mechanics, but boiling it down to this one it is easy to see how this was isolated and implemented.
@@switters8679 yeah when i talk about an anti-marionette, i just mean a counterpart to it rather than something completely different. Maybe i used the wrong term
Was about to make an "Ivan Brett from The Traitors!" joke, then remembered this isn't NRB
yeah silly, that's dannii minogue
Such a recognisable voice!
The progression of JC's clothes during this game was nearly the best part about it. That was just great.
Weird demon and minions to choose. I would be a bit upset if i learned i was the vigor with minions that don't actually have abilities. I know they still poison townsfolk neighbors, but it feels severly nerfed to only have minions that have no ongoing ability.
We weren't upset, because that's not a fun way to play, but admittedly it was a little bit deflating. I joked with Jen that if he killed both of us Minions, we could have a budget No Dashii, lol.
The more I learn about the Marionette, the less I think it is anything but a _bad_ thing for the evil team. It removes an outsider (good for the good team), takes up a minion slot (so effectively removes an extra ability), is next to the demon (so, if sus'd out, gives strong info to the good team), and is no more bad for the good team than a Drunk as long as he thinks he's on the good team. ANd once he knows he's on the evil team, he does nothing that any other evil player doesn't do. So everything the Marionette does is better for the good team than the Drunk is!
I feel like the demon should either have input on the info the Marionette gets, or should know what that information is (that is, what the ST tells the Marionette should be told to the Demon), or maybe something really wonky. The "really wonky" would be instead of the previous ideas, but would be something like, "When the Marionette dies by execution, the nearest good player to the demon on that side becomes the new Marionette. The dead Marionette may become good; he does not know if this happens."
The "may" is up to the ST, obviously, and is there so that the ST can choose to make a Marionette who never knew his true alignment never finds out he was ever the Marionette, but can also leave a Marionette who _might_ know with reason _not_ to immediately announce. This can also help rebalance the teams if too many are evil after the effect happens.
@@segevstormlord3713 marionette doesn't remove an outsider. Not sure where you got that from.
@@SceneTurkey Oh, good. I thought I heard Ben say it does that in this video. My bad.
The rest of my point still stands: the Marionette is actively worse for the evil team than the drunk is, because it's essentially an evil drunk who doesn't know what team he's on and can thus work against his own team until he knows, has no power, and can reveal to the good team where the demon is if sus'd out.
I feel like it needs to _do_ something. Because the theory that "he'll make himself look innocent" doesn't really work because any minion will pretend a good role, and may have _better_ bluff info since he isn't getting "drunk" info.
@@segevstormlord3713 I agree for the most part, but some people are just bad at hiding that they are evil. Mechanic-wise, the marionette is probably the worst minion, but taking the human element into account, a player who is bad at faking good will do a great job throwing the scent another direction with their false info/ability.
This isn’t the first one I’ve watched of this channel but just wanted to say that I am going through a really hard time and watching these videos give me cheerful thing to watch.
The fun thing is with their discussion about how useless the Vigormortis ability is in this setup they totally ignored that they could have easily poisioned the King. Of course only by either not selling Summoner or keeping the Baron alive a little bit longer.
In this setup that would have just been a much worse nodashii
A vigor with weak minons was rough.
Demon idea, Dragon: Once per game at night you can choose to kill 1 player and both of their neighbors (simulating a dragon's conical breath attack in DnD).
It's like a Po but selection is more restrictive and you don't have to charge.
Well, the Dragon will have to always use his ability at the end of the game, otherwise it will be very obvious, who the Dragon is.
Isn't it rough to give a Vigormortis a baron and a marionette as their minions? Their ability is functionally [-1 outsider]
imo it's *absolutely* rough to do so, but Vigormortis + Baron isn't necessarily that bad - it lets the Vigormortis do what their main gimmick is supposed to be, and try to take that last Outsider claim, like how Viva La Sam did in this game, although obviously that plan didn't exactly work out.
... I think that this script in particular would appreciate an Imp in that slot instead, as Outsider ambiguity is already present with the Drunk, while Imp benefits from Marionette's social trust and Baron's lack of ability - plus, it lets them bluff weird King/Choirboy shenanigans, and dodge Fortune Teller info or an unfortunate placement next to the Empath or Shugenja.
Cant wait for them to add the Dragon as a role from Shrek ❤❤
I really want people to have the role of Donkey aswell xd
The gingerbread man. Evil can only kill you at night - IF THEY CAN CATCH YOU!
They did say that they plan for the next script's theme to be myths and monsters (hence the Lycanthrope and Banshee)
Ocelots are popular now because of Minecraft lots of kids and 20-30 year olds know what an ocelots is soley from the game
JC:s onion comment. Absolutely golden.
It's Ivan Brett from the traitors!
Ogre + Cannibal + Mez can be interesting.
Mez turned cannibal can turn to good again and betray evil when they gain ogre ability
It was already possible with politician and cult leader (without the need of cannibal)
I'm excited to see the Ogre as a demon bluff.
I wanna philo ogre and pick the ogre
22:40 Ogler? I hardly know her!
Ben, if the fortune teller is drunk or poisoned and chooses themselves at night, would you tell them “yes?”
Maybe. It depends if I want them to know they're drunk or poisoned, or if I want them to think that they are their own red herring. There are a lot of things at play here and I can't give a definitive answer unless I have more specific info. - Ben
Well, now I've got to rename my homebrew demon...
I get why you're the same alignment so that your friends, but since I'm reading this as a play on the red and blue ogres of Japanese fairy-tale it's a little sad it's not opposite alignment except for in the recluse state... although, I guess that does still line up with the story in it's own way...
23:01 no, only because of minecraft
Are edd and jc related or do they just eeirly look similar?
Everyone is related, in some way.
I don't see it
Can I ask why the ogre doesn't stay the alignment of the player they picked? It seems like that would be the more fun interaction?
I suppose for game balance reasons... that could lead to two extra evils and that would be huge for the evil team depending on the size of the game.
@@malvinafis6907 In a world where you have something that can change alignment, if the ogre picks a starting evil player then you end up in that situation anyway.
I think it's a matter of knowledge rather than alignment.
If the ogre picks an evil neither the evil nor the ogre have perfect knowledge (even a spy/widow won't know who the ogre picked unless the storyteller notifies them) so the evil won't fully trust them and the ogre can't organize. (Similar to the marionette but the bonus there is the poisoned info)
If an ogre joins the alignment of someone who actively changes Iike a mazepholes target, goon, or cult leader, then their ride or die will know they have 2 votes regardless of what's going on. (Sort of like that second evil team from that "Broomstick Mafia" video)
It's the lack of ambiguity and the ability to pivot makes it a mess compared to the new rule
@@Pokeboy4561 That’s 1 extra evil, the Ogre picking a good player then them both turning evil (from Mezepheles and whatnot), would be two extra evils
@@Mazzis11 If an ogre picks a starting evil player and a mez turns someone else thats 2 evils
just thought of something how would this work. If the choirboy was executed . and then the demon killed the king.....would the cannibal get the demon name? or say the king was executed and then the cannibal was killed by the demon. Would the chairboy get the demon name?
I'd say first scenario, yes. The cannibal is acting as the choirboy, and so when the king dies, they get the demon's name. The second scenario, the king wasn't killed by the demon - the cannibal was. The cannibal is always the cannibal, even if they happen to be borrowing another character's ability. So no name for the choirboy.
I like Ocelot and ocelots!
Nerf Edd
Why is there a jinx between a pit hag and turning an already evil player into the ogre. That seems pointless. Why would you turn a fellow minion into the ogre or a mez turned player into the ogre. The only other applications are cult leader, goon, evil townsfolk and cannibal. An unfortunate situation if you pit hag one of those players but I don’t think that should be jinxed out. I guess an argument could be made for evil townsfolk? Am I missing something?
It’s so a pit hag can’t make themself an ogre pick a good player and betray the evil team
Some people are dicks.
The Pit-Hag could turn themselves into the ogre, turn good then win by getting town to execute the demon.
@@Nemilimehow would the pit-hag ogre turn good?
The pit-hag/ogre jinx makes the ogre choice a formality if a minion is changed and chooses good (they won't change alignment)
@@PheonixRise666The jinx is:
Pit-Hag (Jinx): If the Pit-Hag turns an evil player into the Ogre, they can’t turn good due to their own ability.
If this wasn't the case the Pit-Hag could make themselves into the ogre then pick a good player and then turn good and get town to execute the demon and therefore win with the good team by switching allegiance.
@@Nemilimemy bad. I misunderstood why you were saying what you said.
You were clarifying why the jinx exists.
I kinda love the idea of a canibal eating an already evil ogre or an evil bluffing ogre so you think you are on someones team but are actually not. Malashan could have been the demon with rez marionette, poisoning edd who stays good when they ogre pick the demon.
A Cannibal that wakes up with the Ogre's ability can always ensure they stay good by choosing the executed Ogre. If the Ogre is evil, the Cannibal is poisoned and doesn't actually have the Ogre's ability.
Question about jinx, what would happen if an ogre picked a goon? There should be a jinx there as the ogre would have no way of knowing what alignment the goon is (like the recluse).
The Ogre never knows what team they're on. That's literally the whole point of the character. It's not like the Recluse, because the Goon always knows what team they're on, whereas the Recluse doesn't know if they're registering as good or evil. - Ben