That's not going to amount to much. If you're EXTREMELY lucky, you may get 2% on your savings account. That amounts to $320 for a full year on 16,000. That's a rounding error in the reporting.
@@MrTruckerf But these aren't penalty interests. They will be considered bank interests, because the government was holding the money for you - it wasn't a loan or a credit offered to them by the person.
@@davidseal8375 I've been thinking that all these agents of the government should have some skin in the game. They get a portion of their pay deducted. Every charge that fails to stick, every rights violation. They more they fight a judgment. Say the primary accuser is on the hook for 5% any accomplice incolved pays 1%. Appeal's doubles it.
@@stevenbean9706 send the entire police department of moresville to prison. file for indictment for the dept. of homeland security leader. JUST GIVE THE MAN HIS 17K BACK
There's a Last Week Tonight that covers this in detail, but basically, they seize the money for being accused of being involved in a criminal enterprise and essentially name the money as a defendant in a different case. It's not evidence for the original case. There's going to be a case like "State of North Carolina v. $16,xxx cash" which is what allows them to seize it independent of the original case.
Per ~6:05. Civil asset forfeiture seizes cash as proceeds of crime, not as evidence to a crime. Therefore, the exact dollar bills aren't needed to be kept nor returned, and in this case, that's why the cash is considered fungible
Jail won’t teach people that abuse power like this. Hang them high as a reminder that just because we are more civilized doesn’t mean we can’t fall back and uphold what we used to do to traitors of the people in the past.
problem is... Civil asset forfeiture is legal... Police can ask you to "forfeit" any property that they wish to have. If you say NO, they are authorized to forcibly take the property. If you resist they are authorized to KILL you. .... In the Land of the free, home of the brave
Exactly. The city should be forced to return the mans money to him, and then the city can do whatever legal steps are necessary to get the money reimbursed to them by the feds. The man that had his money taken shouldn't have to go the feds to get it and shouldn't have to wait for the city to get the money back from the feds either.
@@neilkurzman4907 The force that needs to be applied is the force of the people in that town going to city council and demanding that the city return the money or people will start getting removed from office.
What does Cuomo have anything to do with it? I swear, you people just simply cannot help but include "democrat bad" in literally every single thing. It's so exhausting and straight up cringey
Really at some point a Judge needs to award this guy all legal and court fees and double the amount of the award after that, then throw City Officials in jail.
There are countless cases where a judge has declared someone is in contempt of court and that person has been jailed immediately. Apparently when you're law enforcement that doesn't happen, you're allowed to appeal before being jailed for contempt.
The only way it works is if the cop is right there in court and he can have the bailiff puts him into the court holding cell right then and there. Judges generally depend on them too much to play hardball. If he holds the cop personally in contempt, he could assess a fine and make him empty his pockets, take his watch, ring(s) cash from his wallet and even his pocket change. If he has any professional licences, those can be suspended, maybe even his driver's license.🤔
Don't forget the fact that the Mooresville PD was in possession of that cash up until they were ordered to give it back at which time they wired it to the feds.
I don't think anyone cares if they get the SAME dollars back. I doesn't make any difference what Mooresville did with the money, they are still obligated to pay an equal number of dollars back.
@@reasonablespeculation3893 right but they sent the money away in an effort to further stall returning it to the individual. The thing is that the paperwork says that this particular money is in the hands of the feds. It's a messed up process but a check can't be written from Mooresville PD to the person until the money has been received back from where they sent it to. It's a weird process.
@@Dodgecityhorse It's up to the Police Dept to get their money refunded to them. Not the innocent persons problem. So when I buy a product with cash from a store, and return it undamaged and unopened the next day they can't Refund me with DOLLARS (or check or credit to my credit card or payment in any way) because the DOLLARS I gave them have been deposited in the bank, and the SAME Dollars can't be recovered.
IMO The police wired their money to the feds and since they were the ones that took it the money is actually still in their possession according to the law. It was nice of the police department to donate to the DHS their money but they had no right to give someone else's money. This is theft, further the government should be liable for all attorney costs and other costs paid should they lose the appeal, which in all probability they will. The victim in this case should be made whole and that it should also include payments for metal stress and suffering ( original amount 17K, + legal costs and fees + 51K triple damages for suffering ) This should cost the government big time
Why aren't government entities responsible for attorney's fees when that entity is blatantly the cause of the damages and the need for the hearing? This is the case for civil matters in the public domain. The same needs to apply when government commits theft, or is the cause for damages in any other case.
@@SGTJDerek Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't imagine qualified immunity provides protection for committing crimes. Qualified immunity only protects one from prosecution for performing their lawful duties. It is not lawful to withhold the property of people who have not been charged with a crime, or have been absolved of that crime.
@@korndogz69 sadly, you are wrong. Mr Lehto explains it better but the short is if a lawsuit hasn't been won against a cop for the situation then the situation gets qualified immunity. Yes, it is that stupid.
A couple in Florida did that to a Bank of America branch office about ten years ago when they refused to pay court fees as ordered after wrongfully foreclosing on their house - which they paid for in cash.
@@zebfox011 A few years back a man successfully put a lien on a bank branch that wouldn't give him his money (don't remember the circumstances). When he showed up with the sheriff and said he was there to start taking computers and other office equipment equal to the value they owed him, they magically coughed up a check on the spot.
@@tboniusmaximus3047 I heard about a guy who put a lien on a gym that didn't cancel his subscription when he asked. He won and took all of their equipment.
Some "Law Enforcement" agencies feel they are "Law Exempt" agencies too. This is why many people feel police act like they are above the law. Laws don't apply to them.
@@MamaMOB The reason that rule exists is for the most obvious reasons. Example. Chasing a criminal who's speeding.. How are you going to catch him if you can't speed as well? That rule of exemption is to be used for logical, and common sense reasons. The rule itself is not the problem. The problem is that there is no agency, or power which can enforce the abuse of that law.
@@Cramblit giving the police that power is the problem. They will abuse any power they are granted. And they will even abuse powers they don’t have. Police culture needs to change.
@@neilkurzman4907 he for sure made a critical misstep (accepting an offer then changing his mind). Aside from that he got totally boned by both the government and the company that blocked his road.
IIRC they intentionally turned the money over to the feds once they knew they would have to return it to the owner, then said "oh, we're sorry we can't return the money because the feds have it now". That is why the judge initially held them in contempt and threatened jail time to those involved.
For civil asset forfeiture, they should allow attorney's fees to be payed by the city/government and then they'd be quick to return the money since they couldnt out last the victim
Civil asset forfeiture is nothing short of armed robbery. and giving the cash to another entity so that the source of where the money came from is money laundering
That should be put into law as well as providing a public defender for those who cannot afford an attorney (because the crooked cops stole their money.)
@@ewkabel Well, since in Civil Forfeiture, the asset is the "guilty" party, they should be required to provide legal representation to the asset. - I can imagine the courtroom. "I am the lawyer on behalf of the 2018 Dodge Charger your honor, and my associate is here representing the Polaris sport watercraft." * How do the inanimate object plead? "Both inanimate objects enter a default plea of not guilt, your honor."
Evidently, after the judge said contempt charges would be forthcoming, Mooresville called the judge's bluff and the judge folded. Empty words. No contempt charges filed. Makes one wonder. Cheers.
Is this judge on a back handers somewhere.. he should be using his 'teeth to enforce' the court order...and put the police chief in jail until its sorted out....
@@natsnd pretty sure due process would require a hearing before forced asset forfeiture for contempt (and probably would also require that allowance to be instituted by the legislature) instead of just issuing a fine. Automatically going to jail for contempt is completely legit, though. This whole business is classic textbook for civil asset forfeiture, and why the whole rotten structure of civil asset forfeiture separate from a criminal court sentence needs to be burned to the ground. Assets connected to criminal activity could be frozen, but not seized, while a trial is underway, but that's not seizure. That's simply freezing the ill-gotten gains. And if the defendant is convicted, the ill-gotten gains and ONLY the money gained by the criminal action (because it's a crime to financially profit from criminal activity) should be seized AFTER conviction.
I'm going to go to my favorite steakhouse, order and eat a huge steak and baked potato and then not pay. When they ask me why I'm not paying, I will say that the food is no longer on my plate, so I am no longer a party to this transaction!
For this to work, I think you would need to order the food and give it to someone else. Then you have no involvement at all, besides taking the food. But you know, you could have a friend that also orders food, and the two of you switch.
Go to Longhorn. Eat 3/4s of it first and claim that it wasn’t cooked right. Threaten to call corporate if they don’t fix it. Helps if you are black 😂. I know a former server there and she said this happened all the time.
They should personally prosecute everyone involved, from the police officers and supervisors, the mayor, the city attorney, and anyone else who has touched this case. Then they should sue them personally to ensure this idiocy never happens again.
@@grantsamson2384 New Mexico has shown how it's done: they made civil forfeiture illegal. May all States and Federal Congress follow suit! Of course, it should be observed that it *isn't* legal *now* , but the Supreme Court *magically* found it "Constitutional".
Steve why when people Sue to get their money back from civil asset forfeiture why don't they add lawyer fees and any pain and suffering to the lawsuit?
@@michaelsommers2356 apparently you have never needed to find a lawyer, spend hours on phone calls and days in court. The government doesn't care about your life or value your time.
@@michaelsommers2356 not having $17000 could easily lose you 2 or 3k in interest/investment alone even if you don't need it to live. Secondarily, if he DOES need that money for things, that number can skyrocket - what if he gets evicted for missing rent? What if he misses mortgage payments and get his house repossessed? then the department would be on the hook for the entire paid mortgage amount that he lost. and even NEEDING to worry about these things causes negative outcomes - so pain and suffering. All sorts of it.
What I hear is that if I were held in contempt of court, I would be put in jail immediately. But if the city officials are in contempt of the court, they get to hang around until it’s forgotten.
In a civil suit, if you have a judgement against you and you can't pay the amount of the judgement, can't the court order property seized and auction it off until they reach the amount of the judgement? They should get some of the Department's police cars seized and then say Pay up or we auction the cars. I bet the man would have a check that day.
@C B They are all good Democrats so no one cares, and if anyone says anything they are accused of being racists or something... even if it's Lt. Governor Robinson, who happens to be a black Republican (and a great guy).
@@neilkurzman4907 The state Attorney General's office has a lot of say in how local governments enforce the law... or break it. (Google Mike Nifong). Not that our current AG is interested in ever doing the right thing...
It's called "Boy, we gonna make you spend ten times that amount to get your money back, there ain't a thing you can do about it, and we're gonna set here and laugh at your sorry azz." I've lived in four Southern States and this shite happens more often than you might think, and they're correct in saying there's nothing you can do without spending yourself into debt.
I had never heard of civil asset forfeiture until you explained it in your videos. This needs to be something asked at every politician's campaign rally, town halls, twitter, etc. When they want money we need to demand they take a stance against civil asset forfeiture. And DHS is a wildcard agency, no warrants needed, they handle every kind of issue. If you can't get a real judge to issue a warrant you can just hand over to the DHS and they can do something with it. The DEA needs warrants. Even the FBI needs warrants. The DHS, not so much.
A court officer would never ruffle the feathers of the cops like that. It's not even as a sinister cover-up; it's just because it would make working with them afterwards awkward. Which is not only pathetic, it makes it certain that the (ha!) "bad apples" will continue to spread their rot.
Why is it so crazy to jail a town's government leaders but not for those people to steal from citizens and ignore the judges ruling. That judge would be the hero of many if he/she went through with it.
The other side of the coin? How much is the city spending of taxpayer money to pay their attorney fees? Or are they spending more than the federal government kick back?
Gotta pay for that police militarization somehow. Cause we all know every PD needs an Caiman FMTV 6x6 capable of withstanding mines with its nearly 40K pound body. It's not like that money could be better spent, we gotta be rational here brother.
Wait wait wait....the siezed cash....which was supposedly evidence in the criminal investigation.....was given away. Police departments....giving away evidence in ongoing investigations. The cops shouldn't just be made to give back the money, they should be brought up on criminal charges as well.
Even if they catch someone SELLING DRUGS and they have 50k in the car, they should need to prove that the 50k came from selling drugs. For all they know, I saved that 50k at home from my day job, and I just started selling drugs, and only made 50 dollars profit so far, so only 50 dollars out of that 50,000 dollars came from illegal acts. Even if Im convicted of selling said drugs, they should need to separately prove that I sold 50k worth of drugs to seize the 50k.
When I was med discharged from the military I traveled with 32k cash in my pocket. I can’t imagine what I’d have done if pulled over and my money was taken. I’d probably have ended up in prison.
How much is the city of Mooresville and the police department paying to file appeals in court; plus, the 17k in late fees, Sander's attorney's fees, and interest they will have to pay if they lose their case in federal court? I hope Mooresville pays at least triple what they stole!
Go after each & every person including the city's attorney that had anything to do with this case. Not sure if that's possible but I'll bet it'd get their attention.
When the county bills you for your property taxes, just tell them you sent it to the IRS and you're not responsible anymore. I'm sure that will work out well......
Simple solution: the court orders the seizing authority to return the assets, with a penalty of the seizing authority’s assets being sold at auction to cover all seized assets plus expenses.
No. Because then that body would just have to raise taxes to replace the missing property. The proper way is to have the funds come out of the general account fund of the city.
@@alanmcentee9457 The point is to force the compensation, and make it immediate and painful. The seizing authority still has the option to return the assets immediately. The real penalty of the auction comes from the loss of assets being sold for pennies on the dollar. This will hit them in the wallet hard enough to get people fired, politicians removed, and the use of CAF stopped.
@@neilkurzman4907 First, one could argue that my original comment was figurative and hyperbolic. Second, What do you suggest from your armchair? Why aren't any of those public officials in jail? Those "in power" are not only refusing to follow the law, but also they are brazen in their flaunting of their disobedience of the Judge's orders. Further, it appears that you are historically illiterate. Tarring and feathering was used by the colonists against "leaders" who were particularly oppressive, or treacherous against the colonies. But whatever, just sit baaaak in your armchair with the rest of the sheeple, and take it from the govt. Maybe, by being a good little sheep, you'll be among the last that they come around to. I'm pretty sure that once they get around to screwing you over, you'll be singing a different tune. But will anyone be left to stand up with you and at least make smart ass comments on RUclips in support of your plight? If you think any of what I wrote is unfathomable, you're either, too young to remember the past, or too unread to have learned about it. "...all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed". - The Declaration of Independence.
Duh. I've been saying that for the last year. It's not going to stop or get better till WE who hold the power do something. Tar n feathers would be to good for them. Study Vlad! Yes that Vlad. People didn't mess him over. C'mon people, our ancesters are looking down on us with shame.
@@neilkurzman4907 no. But is way past time to act. And don't you think these bad actors deserve it. People don't fear laws anymore. BUT THEY STILL FEAR AN OLD FASHIONED A** WHOOPIN'
Dear Mr. Lehto, I myself was in a somewhat similar situation. I had a warrant put out for my arrest from a Judge who claimed I didn't finish my Community Service. He fined me $275.00. He wouldn't let me leave court unless I paid towards the fine or go to jail. I paid a $100 towards the fine but I was very sick at the time so he gave me a continuance. I came back and proved my innocence and when I asked to have my money back he kept money and kicked me out of his office. He BASICALLY stole my money even when I was proven right!!!
Add in the amount that the town spent on legal fees and paying their pet lawyers to pursue this idiotic enterprise. That is taxpayer money. So possibly $100,000 in expenses spent by both sides over an inappropriate seizure of $17,000. Now THAT is idiocy.
Is this generating case law that can be sited in even more absurd ways? Rare/vintage/collectible/ currency and stamp collections are adverse to fungibility.
Contact the State SBI and have take out warrants on the arresting officer, anyone who was on the call, anyone who was in the chain of custody loop, the Town Manager and the Mayor.
Dropping the charges against him is immaterial. CIVIL asset forfeiture has never required proof of a crime to begin with. This is one of the biggest objections to it from the beginning.
No. Qualified immunity prevents that. And this situation is why it exists too. The law allows him to take it. It doesn't help anybody to remove qualified immunity for situations like this since the officer is simply operating within the rules he is required to stay within. To properly address the issue you fix the civil asset forfeiture laws, and make laws allowing the sovereign immunity of a city/state/fedral government to be pierced for situations like this where common sense says the man gets his money back.
Why can't the judge just garnish the wages of some of the cops involved or town officials like they do for alimony or child support? Why can't the judge put on punative damages to cover attorney fees or have the town cover the attorney fees too.
Once you get a win file a suit for damages and recover everything plus some for your emotional distress. It can be a teachable lesson in the other direction too.
Sadly, our legal system is a joke when it comes to collections. Even if this was a case you sued someone non government it's a PITA to collect . Emotional distress though, i agree with punitive damages. But i don't believe in making stuff up and misusing "emotional distress"
There should be some protections in place against this. Possibly something similar to how SLAPP works. Just instead of a lawsuit to silence someone, these are lawsuits and court proceedings to stop someone from collecting on what looks like a "judgement" or to stop them from getting their property back. They should be liable for any and all attorney's fees and court costs associated with the case and the follow up cases on appeals and so on. Once they eventually lose, they should be ordered to reimburse for the frivolous lawsuits that were only done to try and accrue costs for the plaintiff. They aren't making these lawsuits and appeals because they think they are in the right, they are making them solely to cause financial burden on the plaintiff and bully them with money to get them to drop the case. Any state attorneys and employees who ABUSE their power and continue to frivolously go through these court processes to try and cause unneeded financial burden on those who have won cases against them in court should also be help personally responsible after some point and should at the very least be fired. Talk about a miscarriage of justice - this makes me sick.
That is exactly what the police department in this case is doing. Jackson was taunting the court to enforce the law knowing that it is the executive branch that has the power of enforcement, not the judicial branch. Jackson was abdicating his constitutional responsibility to enforce the law because he didn't agree with it.
Per the Statesville Records & Landmark, the money was turned over to Customs and Border Protection, which is part of Homeland Security, not the Drug Enforcement Administration, which is not. That's how Homeland Security is involved.
Judge Wimp hasn’t the courage of his convictions. He should be in front of judicial qualification commission for not enforcing his ruling. Steve gets an A+ on correct grammatical usage of subjective vs. objective pronoun case!
NO!! This agency stole the money, This agency owes it - PAY IT NOW!! or PAY STEEP INTEREST!! Would it matter if I robbed a bank but didn't have the money anymore?!! Hell NO!! Civil Asset Forfeiture is CRIMINAL! End Civil Asset Forfeiture NOW - WITH PREJUDICE!!
![DDG & G Herbo - Nosey [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/I9Ra0Zc2NlQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Once the charges were dropped, the city needs to be charged interest daily for any delays in returning to funds.
and why cant the man counter charge and make the city pay his atty fees?
That's not going to amount to much.
If you're EXTREMELY lucky, you may get 2% on your savings account. That amounts to $320 for a full year on 16,000. That's a rounding error in the reporting.
@@MrMartinSchou Penalty interest is much higher, usually 2% per month/ 24% per year. Credit card interest is often 1 1/2% per month/ 18% per year.
@@MrTruckerf But these aren't penalty interests. They will be considered bank interests, because the government was holding the money for you - it wasn't a loan or a credit offered to them by the person.
@@MrMartinSchou Good! For once the govt. isn't ripping people off.
When the government is at fault, they should have to pay attorney fees.
Over here, loser generally pays both costs. UK.
Anyone at fault reasonable attorney fees actually the prosecution should
And customary interest should also be paid to the victim.
Imo, asset forfeiture is nothing more than "legalized theft."
That means we pay the fees....no loss to them.
@@davidseal8375 I've been thinking that all these agents of the government should have some skin in the game. They get a portion of their pay deducted. Every charge that fails to stick, every rights violation. They more they fight a judgment.
Say the primary accuser is on the hook for 5% any accomplice incolved pays 1%. Appeal's doubles it.
Money is fungible. “We gave the money to someone else” is no defense at all. Hold them in contempt & send them to jail.
Exactly whomever made the decisions needs to pay
@@stevenbean9706 send the entire police department of moresville to prison. file for indictment for the dept. of homeland security leader. JUST GIVE THE MAN HIS 17K BACK
@@gamershadow8 No, he needs to be made whole, money and costs.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
Throw the mayor in jail for contempt of court until the money is returned
I am not a lawyer, but that sounds like a decent solution.
“A band of thieves need only call themselves a government and their crimes become legal”
~Bastiat
Taliban bouta BUST some checks
@@JK360noscope and the federal reserve will open a lending window to them
It’s all a big scam.
We are ruled by criminals
@@fredsanford1437. Can he get an AMEN! Brothers and Sisters, AMEN!
Its not the Gov. its the local elected crooks
@@citizenfriendly3845 that is govt…
Wouldn't giving the money away be evidence tampering since the case wasn't completed.
if it was evidence they would not have given it away maybe I am wrong
There's a Last Week Tonight that covers this in detail, but basically, they seize the money for being accused of being involved in a criminal enterprise and essentially name the money as a defendant in a different case. It's not evidence for the original case. There's going to be a case like "State of North Carolina v. $16,xxx cash" which is what allows them to seize it independent of the original case.
Per ~6:05. Civil asset forfeiture seizes cash as proceeds of crime, not as evidence to a crime. Therefore, the exact dollar bills aren't needed to be kept nor returned, and in this case, that's why the cash is considered fungible
@@Cal94 thank you that's makes sense. It's still corrupt as hell but it makes sense.
Good point tampering with evidence.
"Sorry, I can't pay my taxes because I gave my money to someone else already." Jail everyone involved with this, no more games.
Jail won’t teach people that abuse power like this. Hang them high as a reminder that just because we are more civilized doesn’t mean we can’t fall back and uphold what we used to do to traitors of the people in the past.
@@neilkurzman4907 I did.
problem is... Civil asset forfeiture is legal...
Police can ask you to "forfeit" any property that they wish to have.
If you say NO, they are authorized to forcibly take the property.
If you resist they are authorized to KILL you. .... In the Land of the free, home of the brave
OVER SEAS PER REPRESENTATIVE IN GOVERNMENT FOFR GOVERNMENTNOT US USA CITKIZENS !...
I'd reject the "we gave it to the feds" argument up front. The police department that seized the money is responsible for returning it.
They gave it to the feds like Gov Cuomo didn't harass anyone
Exactly. The city should be forced to return the mans money to him, and then the city can do whatever legal steps are necessary to get the money reimbursed to them by the feds. The man that had his money taken shouldn't have to go the feds to get it and shouldn't have to wait for the city to get the money back from the feds either.
@@neilkurzman4907 The force that needs to be applied is the force of the people in that town going to city council and demanding that the city return the money or people will start getting removed from office.
What does Cuomo have anything to do with it? I swear, you people just simply cannot help but include "democrat bad" in literally every single thing. It's so exhausting and straight up cringey
Really at some point a Judge needs to award this guy all legal and court fees and double the amount of the award after that, then throw City Officials in jail.
There are countless cases where a judge has declared someone is in contempt of court and that person has been jailed immediately. Apparently when you're law enforcement that doesn't happen, you're allowed to appeal before being jailed for contempt.
The only way it works is if the cop is right there in court and he can have the bailiff puts him into the court holding cell right then and there. Judges generally depend on them too much to play hardball.
If he holds the cop personally in contempt, he could assess a fine and make him empty his pockets, take his watch, ring(s) cash from his wallet and even his pocket change. If he has any professional licences, those can be suspended, maybe even his driver's license.🤔
Don't forget the fact that the Mooresville PD was in possession of that cash up until they were ordered to give it back at which time they wired it to the feds.
That's contemptible!
I don't think anyone cares if they get the SAME dollars back.
I doesn't make any difference what Mooresville did with the money,
they are still obligated to pay an equal number of dollars back.
@@reasonablespeculation3893 right but they sent the money away in an effort to further stall returning it to the individual. The thing is that the paperwork says that this particular money is in the hands of the feds. It's a messed up process but a check can't be written from Mooresville PD to the person until the money has been received back from where they sent it to. It's a weird process.
@@Dodgecityhorse It's up to the Police Dept to get their money refunded to them.
Not the innocent persons problem.
So when I buy a product with cash from a store, and return it undamaged and unopened the next day they can't Refund me with DOLLARS (or check or credit to my credit card or payment in any way) because the DOLLARS I gave them have been deposited in the bank, and the SAME Dollars can't be recovered.
IMO The police wired their money to the feds and since they were the ones that took it the money is actually still in their possession according to the law. It was nice of the police department to donate to the DHS their money but they had no right to give someone else's money. This is theft, further the government should be liable for all attorney costs and other costs paid should they lose the appeal, which in all probability they will. The victim in this case should be made whole and that it should also include payments for metal stress and suffering ( original amount 17K, + legal costs and fees + 51K triple damages for suffering ) This should cost the government big time
Why aren't government entities responsible for attorney's fees when that entity is blatantly the cause of the damages and the need for the hearing? This is the case for civil matters in the public domain. The same needs to apply when government commits theft, or is the cause for damages in any other case.
Qualified Immunity and Loopholes.
@@SGTJDerek Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't imagine qualified immunity provides protection for committing crimes. Qualified immunity only protects one from prosecution for performing their lawful duties. It is not lawful to withhold the property of people who have not been charged with a crime, or have been absolved of that crime.
You can only get your attorney fees if allowed by statute.
@@korndogz69 sovereign immunity might be more accurate, in some cases.
@@korndogz69 sadly, you are wrong. Mr Lehto explains it better but the short is if a lawsuit hasn't been won against a cop for the situation then the situation gets qualified immunity. Yes, it is that stupid.
Judge should send in state police to start confiscating city property to auction off to fulfill their debt.
Starting with the comfortable furniture in the higher-ups offices wherever they do business. I guess working from home isn't all good.
A couple in Florida did that to a Bank of America branch office about ten years ago when they refused to pay court fees as ordered after wrongfully foreclosing on their house - which they paid for in cash.
@@hattielankford4775 i'd say start with private property
Begin with confiscating police vehicles (used in the commission of crimes) and more.
@@johnricci4511 better start with private property of the criminal actors as the city property is the property of it's citizens collective.
Put a lien on the 'Mooresville Water Filter Plant' and force sale to recover property 'the money'.
And exactly how do you propose to do just that? Do you realize how big of a joke you made?
@@zebfox011 A few years back a man successfully put a lien on a bank branch that wouldn't give him his money (don't remember the circumstances). When he showed up with the sheriff and said he was there to start taking computers and other office equipment equal to the value they owed him, they magically coughed up a check on the spot.
@@John_Ridley references?
Why does he have to give you references? Google it yourself
@@tboniusmaximus3047 I heard about a guy who put a lien on a gym that didn't cancel his subscription when he asked. He won and took all of their equipment.
Some "Law Enforcement" agencies feel they are "Law Exempt" agencies too. This is why many people feel police act like they are above the law. Laws don't apply to them.
@@MamaMOB
The reason that rule exists is for the most obvious reasons. Example. Chasing a criminal who's speeding.. How are you going to catch him if you can't speed as well?
That rule of exemption is to be used for logical, and common sense reasons. The rule itself is not the problem. The problem is that there is no agency, or power which can enforce the abuse of that law.
@@Cramblit giving the police that power is the problem. They will abuse any power they are granted. And they will even abuse powers they don’t have. Police culture needs to change.
These types of actions, create the type of guy that will armorplate a bulldozer, and go to town.
Long live Marvin Heemeyer!!!
@@neilkurzman4907 he for sure made a critical misstep (accepting an offer then changing his mind). Aside from that he got totally boned by both the government and the company that blocked his road.
@@dblclutchmitsu his critical misstep was shooting himself
Or ambush a police officer...
I saw a bunch of video footage from that incident. Am I soo wrong to admit, in more ways than not, I was actually rooting for him?
IIRC they intentionally turned the money over to the feds once they knew they would have to return it to the owner, then said "oh, we're sorry we can't return the money because the feds have it now". That is why the judge initially held them in contempt and threatened jail time to those involved.
For civil asset forfeiture, they should allow attorney's fees to be payed by the city/government and then they'd be quick to return the money since they couldnt out last the victim
Civil asset forfeiture is unconstitutional. No two ways about it.
Civil asset forfeiture is nothing short of armed robbery. and giving the cash to another entity so that the source of where the money came from is money laundering
That should be put into law as well as providing a public defender for those who cannot afford an attorney (because the crooked cops stole their money.)
@@ewkabel Well, since in Civil Forfeiture, the asset is the "guilty" party, they should be required to provide legal representation to the asset.
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I can imagine the courtroom. "I am the lawyer on behalf of the 2018 Dodge Charger your honor, and my associate is here representing the Polaris sport watercraft."
* How do the inanimate object plead?
"Both inanimate objects enter a default plea of not guilt, your honor."
That's all fine and good. Now convince the rule makers to make such a rule that screws them over like that.
Evidently, after the judge said contempt charges would be forthcoming, Mooresville called the judge's bluff and the judge folded. Empty words. No contempt charges filed. Makes one wonder. Cheers.
Is this judge on a back handers somewhere.. he should be using his 'teeth to enforce' the court order...and put the police chief in jail until its sorted out....
Judge should order officers, administration and city officials jailed and PERSONAL assets seized.
@@natsnd pretty sure due process would require a hearing before forced asset forfeiture for contempt (and probably would also require that allowance to be instituted by the legislature) instead of just issuing a fine. Automatically going to jail for contempt is completely legit, though.
This whole business is classic textbook for civil asset forfeiture, and why the whole rotten structure of civil asset forfeiture separate from a criminal court sentence needs to be burned to the ground.
Assets connected to criminal activity could be frozen, but not seized, while a trial is underway, but that's not seizure. That's simply freezing the ill-gotten gains. And if the defendant is convicted, the ill-gotten gains and ONLY the money gained by the criminal action (because it's a crime to financially profit from criminal activity) should be seized AFTER conviction.
The reason that they can't currently be held in contempt is because they filed an appeal which stays the lower court's order.
Sounds like an episode of “The Dukes of Hazard.” That towns police force is run by “Boss Hog.”
Only now the country is run by a bunch of boss hogs
I'm going to go to my favorite steakhouse, order and eat a huge steak and baked potato and then not pay. When they ask me why I'm not paying, I will say that the food is no longer on my plate, so I am no longer a party to this transaction!
For this to work, I think you would need to order the food and give it to someone else. Then you have no involvement at all, besides taking the food. But you know, you could have a friend that also orders food, and the two of you switch.
Go to Longhorn. Eat 3/4s of it first and claim that it wasn’t cooked right. Threaten to call corporate if they don’t fix it. Helps if you are black 😂. I know a former server there and she said this happened all the time.
They should personally prosecute everyone involved, from the police officers and supervisors, the mayor, the city attorney, and anyone else who has touched this case. Then they should sue them personally to ensure this idiocy never happens again.
Homeland security should be investigating the city that won't give money back
There is a lot to be said for personal responsibility.
Ha. Ha. Ha. That’ll never happen.
Who's gonna do that though?
@@grantsamson2384 New Mexico has shown how it's done: they made civil forfeiture illegal. May all States and Federal Congress follow suit!
Of course, it should be observed that it *isn't* legal *now* , but the Supreme Court *magically* found it "Constitutional".
Steve why when people Sue to get their money back from civil asset forfeiture why don't they add lawyer fees and any pain and suffering to the lawsuit?
Couldn't he sue the town/city for defamation?
I'm wondering the same. Why can't they also sue for court and lawyer fees and costs? I cannot believe this is America!
Because statute doesn't allow it, and also there is no pain and suffering in this sort of case.
@@michaelsommers2356 apparently you have never needed to find a lawyer, spend hours on phone calls and days in court. The government doesn't care about your life or value your time.
@@michaelsommers2356 not having $17000 could easily lose you 2 or 3k in interest/investment alone even if you don't need it to live.
Secondarily, if he DOES need that money for things, that number can skyrocket - what if he gets evicted for missing rent? What if he misses mortgage payments and get his house repossessed? then the department would be on the hook for the entire paid mortgage amount that he lost.
and even NEEDING to worry about these things causes negative outcomes - so pain and suffering. All sorts of it.
What I hear is that if I were held in contempt of court, I would be put in jail immediately. But if the city officials are in contempt of the court, they get to hang around until it’s forgotten.
The Supreme Court really needs to issue a ruling on this gaping loophole in the law. This shit is getting ridiculous 😒
Another thing that’s crazy is it’s costing the city much more to fight it in court then if they just gave the man his money back..
But those costs come out of a different budget so it's to the cops' advantage to fight it.
But they win, they can pay for it all by -stealing- seizing somebody else's money.
In a civil suit, if you have a judgement against you and you can't pay the amount of the judgement, can't the court order property seized and auction it off until they reach the amount of the judgement? They should get some of the Department's police cars seized and then say Pay up or we auction the cars. I bet the man would have a check that day.
Yes, they can. But not until after all appeals are completed.
I wouldn’t trust the city government. I’d demand cash in my hands.
@@jamessimms415 Then they can seaze the money because it is proceeds of a crime , the one the cops comited , a catch 22 .
The State of NC needs to step in and a accounting audit needs to be conducted on the town of Moorseville. A very good chance there is more going on.
Cooper and his minions won't do a thing.
@C B They are all good Democrats so no one cares, and if anyone says anything they are accused of being racists or something... even if it's Lt. Governor Robinson, who happens to be a black Republican (and a great guy).
@@neilkurzman4907 The state Attorney General's office has a lot of say in how local governments enforce the law... or break it. (Google Mike Nifong). Not that our current AG is interested in ever doing the right thing...
Sounds like contempt of court and someone needs to go to jail until the money is returned.
It's called "Boy, we gonna make you spend ten times that amount to get your money back, there ain't a thing you can do about it, and we're gonna set here and laugh at your sorry azz."
I've lived in four Southern States and this shite happens more often than you might think, and they're correct in saying there's nothing you can do without spending yourself into debt.
file a civil lawsuit against the cop for theft.
Throw that DA in Jail & Disbarred for Nonsense Arguments & be ordered to pay Legal Fees!!!
I had never heard of civil asset forfeiture until you explained it in your videos. This needs to be something asked at every politician's campaign rally, town halls, twitter, etc. When they want money we need to demand they take a stance against civil asset forfeiture. And DHS is a wildcard agency, no warrants needed, they handle every kind of issue. If you can't get a real judge to issue a warrant you can just hand over to the DHS and they can do something with it. The DEA needs warrants. Even the FBI needs warrants. The DHS, not so much.
I love this channel because he breaks cases down and explains them well it's interesting
So, why is the Police Chief not in contempt.? Why has it's assets not been taken to auction.?
As President Andrew Jackson (IIRC) said once of a SCOTUS ruling, (and I am paraphrasing) Let the Chief Justice try and enforce that judgement himself.
A court officer would never ruffle the feathers of the cops like that. It's not even as a sinister cover-up; it's just because it would make working with them afterwards awkward. Which is not only pathetic, it makes it certain that the (ha!) "bad apples" will continue to spread their rot.
Why is it so crazy to jail a town's government leaders but not for those people to steal from citizens and ignore the judges ruling. That judge would be the hero of many if he/she went through with it.
The other side of the coin? How much is the city spending of taxpayer money to pay their attorney fees? Or are they spending more than the federal government kick back?
The lawyers are probably already putting deposits on yachts.
Mayor and Police chief should be jailed in state prison until no longer in contempt.
Every government official involved in withholding the money needs to be jailed and banned from public service for life. Enough is enough.
"They will run you ragged "
The "they" is the lawyers and the legal system.
Want to bet if a judge ordered me to do something and I refused I would be in jail
"We gave it to DoHS," probably means that they bought a tank or something.
Gotta pay for that police militarization somehow.
Cause we all know every PD needs an Caiman FMTV 6x6 capable of withstanding mines with its nearly 40K pound body. It's not like that money could be better spent, we gotta be rational here brother.
Thank you for bringing this to light. Nothing makes my blood boil more than things like this!
Really strikes a nerve
Amazing how the city makes their case with a straight face.
It's equally amazing how much they're willing to spend to keep that money.
Wait wait wait....the siezed cash....which was supposedly evidence in the criminal investigation.....was given away. Police departments....giving away evidence in ongoing investigations. The cops shouldn't just be made to give back the money, they should be brought up on criminal charges as well.
Once he wins he needs to sue the government for attorney fees and extra money for time spent and pain and suffering.
They should be forced to pay all attorney fees.
Ok, but who is "they"?
@@hattielankford4775 the city of Mooresville
Defund Government! STOP THE INSANITY!
Meanwhile, $17,000 several times over, has been blown in legal costs, arguing it 🙄
i always finding it irritating when the cops always say, "he"s got a criminal history." it has nothing to do with the current issue.
@@paul.van.santvoord1232 Yeah it's been working for a couple of hundred years now.
Even if he's never pled or been convicted of anything more than a traffic violation, they still say that!
Even if they catch someone SELLING DRUGS and they have 50k in the car, they should need to prove that the 50k came from selling drugs. For all they know, I saved that 50k at home from my day job, and I just started selling drugs, and only made 50 dollars profit so far, so only 50 dollars out of that 50,000 dollars came from illegal acts. Even if Im convicted of selling said drugs, they should need to separately prove that I sold 50k worth of drugs to seize the 50k.
On principle their needs to be another 1776 to set this shit straight again
AMEN to that Present day US Gangster Government is an abomination and insult to Liberty, the Constitution and Civil Rights!
@@kpdvw Plus our ancestors being ashamed of us. They won't even allow us in heaven if we don't soon make this right.
When I was med discharged from the military I traveled with 32k cash in my pocket. I can’t imagine what I’d have done if pulled over and my money was taken. I’d probably have ended up in prison.
It's about time for the plaintiff to go after the city for damages for wasting his time and attorneys fees.
How much is the city of Mooresville and the police department paying to file appeals in court; plus, the 17k in late fees, Sander's attorney's fees, and interest they will have to pay if they lose their case in federal court? I hope Mooresville pays at least triple what they stole!
Go after each & every person including the city's attorney that had anything to do with this case. Not sure if that's possible but I'll bet it'd get their attention.
Could the victim not file a lien against a piece of county or city property?
The words, "Self Help" come to mind...
Absolutley disgusting. Thanks for all the enlightening videos steve.
When the county bills you for your property taxes, just tell them you sent it to the IRS and you're not responsible anymore. I'm sure that will work out well......
Such a broken system. Next we'll hear that Judges could be threatened with arrest if their conduct is detrimental to good police order.
Ditto DA's, prosecutors, and defense attorneys
Simple solution: the court orders the seizing authority to return the assets, with a penalty of the seizing authority’s assets being sold at auction to cover all seized assets plus expenses.
No. Because then that body would just have to raise taxes to replace the missing property.
The proper way is to have the funds come out of the general account fund of the city.
@@alanmcentee9457 The point is to force the compensation, and make it immediate and painful. The seizing authority still has the option to return the assets immediately. The real penalty of the auction comes from the loss of assets being sold for pennies on the dollar. This will hit them in the wallet hard enough to get people fired, politicians removed, and the use of CAF stopped.
It’s the police’s job to get it back from whomever they gave it to not the plaintiff.
I live in Mooresville North Carolina and am a taxpayer I wonder how many my tax dollars are being spent trying to keep this man's money?
Sounds like a good old Tarring and Feathering is overdue.
What other options are there when the legal system's actors refuse to obey THEIR OWN RULES??
@@neilkurzman4907 First, one could argue that my original comment was figurative and hyperbolic. Second, What do you suggest from your armchair? Why aren't any of those public officials in jail? Those "in power" are not only refusing to follow the law, but also they are brazen in their flaunting of their disobedience of the Judge's orders. Further, it appears that you are historically illiterate. Tarring and feathering was used by the colonists against "leaders" who were particularly oppressive, or treacherous against the colonies.
But whatever, just sit baaaak in your armchair with the rest of the sheeple, and take it from the govt. Maybe, by being a good little sheep, you'll be among the last that they come around to.
I'm pretty sure that once they get around to screwing you over, you'll be singing a different tune. But will anyone be left to stand up with you and at least make smart ass comments on RUclips in support of your plight?
If you think any of what I wrote is unfathomable, you're either, too young to remember the past, or too unread to have learned about it.
"...all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed". - The Declaration of Independence.
@@neilkurzman4907 I talk about similar things daily. Internet has nothing to do with it. It simply is what it is.
Duh. I've been saying that for the last year. It's not going to stop or get better till WE who hold the power do something. Tar n feathers would be to good for them. Study Vlad! Yes that Vlad. People didn't mess him over. C'mon people, our ancesters are looking down on us with shame.
@@neilkurzman4907 no. But is way past time to act. And don't you think these bad actors deserve it. People don't fear laws anymore. BUT THEY STILL FEAR AN OLD FASHIONED A** WHOOPIN'
Every day it seems we're slipping back into a feudal system where the lords do as they please no matter what the law says.
Been there already, now it exposed.
This is why I am happy that Maine is making it harder for city's, county's and the state itself to use civil forfeiture.
I was in court the day Judge Underwood ordered the city to pay.
What was it like to witness
Dear Mr. Lehto, I myself was in a somewhat similar situation. I had a warrant put out for my arrest from a Judge who claimed I didn't finish my Community Service. He fined me $275.00. He wouldn't let me leave court unless I paid towards the fine or go to jail. I paid a $100 towards the fine but I was very sick at the time so he gave me a continuance. I came back and proved my innocence and when I asked to have my money back he kept money and kicked me out of his office. He BASICALLY stole my money even when I was proven right!!!
They should have to give him legal fees and his half ounce of pot back.
Im sure they gave the pot away too. Sure it's already up in smoke.
From an accusation to a theft.
Typical.
Awesome, if I get pulled over and given a ticket, I can just pay my wife the fine! Love this new system!!
Add in the amount that the town spent on legal fees and paying their pet lawyers to pursue this idiotic enterprise. That is taxpayer money. So possibly $100,000 in expenses spent by both sides over an inappropriate seizure of $17,000. Now THAT is idiocy.
I liked that T-shirt so much I bought one for my Sister. Thanks Steve! Proceeds benefit the South Dakota State Historical Society!
Is this generating case law that can be sited in even more absurd ways? Rare/vintage/collectible/ currency and stamp collections are adverse to fungibility.
Contact the State SBI and have take out warrants on the arresting officer, anyone who was on the call, anyone who was in the chain of custody loop, the Town Manager and the Mayor.
Dropping the charges against him is immaterial. CIVIL asset forfeiture has never required proof of a crime to begin with. This is one of the biggest objections to it from the beginning.
If someone from the city had to go to jail who would it be - the mayor, city manager, chief of police? They would send a jail guard. LOL
ok, if they're holding cash as evidence and they gave a check to the FEDs to absolve themselves. What makes a check equal to cash evidence.
We need a case like this to go to SCOTUS so that ALL Civil Forfeitures are deemed Un-Constitutional because there was NO due process involved.
Time for the court to order refund of the original amount, PLUS COVERING THE PERSONS LEGAL EXPENSES!
The Corruption Runs Deep!👎🤬
Nothing like spending $100K in attorney's fees to get back $17K.
That’s what they’re hoping, he’ll go bankrupt trying to get his $17,000 back
Is it possible for the police officer who originally took the money to face grand theft charges?
Again Qualified Immunity...
No. Qualified immunity prevents that. And this situation is why it exists too. The law allows him to take it. It doesn't help anybody to remove qualified immunity for situations like this since the officer is simply operating within the rules he is required to stay within. To properly address the issue you fix the civil asset forfeiture laws, and make laws allowing the sovereign immunity of a city/state/fedral government to be pierced for situations like this where common sense says the man gets his money back.
@@Bobs-Wrigles5555 Qualified immunity is not universal and can be broken.
I,also,have a hard time of saying the flag salute,"One nation under God with liberty and justice for all", when it really isn't.
Why can't the judge just garnish the wages of some of the cops involved or town officials like they do for alimony or child support? Why can't the judge put on punative damages to cover attorney fees or have the town cover the attorney fees too.
"I took your money but I dont have it anymore so I dont need to pay you back" if I did that i'd be in jail.
@@neilkurzman4907 If I took you're money at gunpoint, which is essentially what asset forfeiture is, I would be in jail for robbery
All the little towns around Charlotte are so dirty
Where do you think they learned?
@@woodsrdr matthews
Once you get a win file a suit for damages and recover everything plus some for your emotional distress. It can be a teachable lesson in the other direction too.
Sadly, our legal system is a joke when it comes to collections.
Even if this was a case you sued someone non government it's a PITA to collect .
Emotional distress though, i agree with punitive damages. But i don't believe in making stuff up and misusing "emotional distress"
Can you sue them for the $17 thousand plus lawyer fees and court cost plus inconvenience?
There should be some protections in place against this. Possibly something similar to how SLAPP works. Just instead of a lawsuit to silence someone, these are lawsuits and court proceedings to stop someone from collecting on what looks like a "judgement" or to stop them from getting their property back. They should be liable for any and all attorney's fees and court costs associated with the case and the follow up cases on appeals and so on. Once they eventually lose, they should be ordered to reimburse for the frivolous lawsuits that were only done to try and accrue costs for the plaintiff.
They aren't making these lawsuits and appeals because they think they are in the right, they are making them solely to cause financial burden on the plaintiff and bully them with money to get them to drop the case. Any state attorneys and employees who ABUSE their power and continue to frivolously go through these court processes to try and cause unneeded financial burden on those who have won cases against them in court should also be help personally responsible after some point and should at the very least be fired. Talk about a miscarriage of justice - this makes me sick.
To paraphrase Andrew Jackson. The court having made their decision, let them enforce it.
That is exactly what the police department in this case is doing. Jackson was taunting the court to enforce the law knowing that it is the executive branch that has the power of enforcement, not the judicial branch. Jackson was abdicating his constitutional responsibility to enforce the law because he didn't agree with it.
Ben - Just in front of Steve's well earned RUclips award.
I watch these on my phone in portrait. This is the first time I saw Ben. Thanks!
The money needs to be taken out of the policeman and politicians salaries!
Tell me why the people responsible for the asset forfeiture cannot be charged with felony theft?
Has/will Sanders' lawyer move for Mooresville to foot the bill for ALL his atty fees?
Say it with me:
Money. Is. Fungible.
Per the Statesville Records & Landmark, the money was turned over to Customs and Border Protection, which is part of Homeland Security, not the Drug Enforcement Administration, which is not. That's how Homeland Security is involved.
Judge should award attorney's fees.
Judge Wimp hasn’t the courage of his convictions. He should be in front of judicial qualification commission for not enforcing his ruling. Steve gets an A+ on correct grammatical usage of subjective vs. objective pronoun case!
Why can't they, with the court order, have a Sheriff cover notice, and seize city & police property for sale of assets to meet the now debt?
NO!! This agency stole the money, This agency owes it - PAY IT NOW!! or PAY STEEP INTEREST!!
Would it matter if I robbed a bank but didn't have the money anymore?!! Hell NO!!
Civil Asset Forfeiture is CRIMINAL!
End Civil Asset Forfeiture NOW - WITH PREJUDICE!!