Another point of context: My wife does a lot of ‘indexing’, where she reads batches of birth, marriage, or death records and enters the data into a form so it can be added to a searchable database. Many of these records are from the 1800’s. She’s constantly amazed by how many of the brides were young teenagers when they got married. Most of the husbands were much older than their wives. These records are from Missouri, Arkansas, Texas, and the like. The individuals whose names were recorded on these records were not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They may have never heard of the Church. So, why would we find it odd that people in Utah got married at similar ages? Why did women get married so young while men got married so much later in life? At the time, and for much of human history, marriage was primarily an economic partnership. When a woman was ready to have and raise children of her own, she was ready to marry. Her economic value to the marriage - the number and health of the children she could produce - was at its peak. It would only decrease as she got older. The same wasn’t true for men. In general, it took a young man a decade or more to establish himself financially so he could support a wife and family. This meant that the most attractive available men - the ones with an established farm or business - were likely in their 30’s or 40’s. Those were the men young women wanted to marry, the ones who could support the children she would contribute to the marriage.
It is patently apparent that all someone needs to do, for profit and some attention, is to accuse Latter-day Saints of some additional horrific thing, with absolutely no substance or evidence, and the immediate hullabaloo is guaranteed!! THIS sort of action is Satanically sponsored!! Accurate, reasonable and documented evidence like yours is vital!!
It’s not shocking that young girls got married to older men. It’s shocking that Brigham married a 13 year old when he already had many wives. What was the point of it?
I have noticed a similar pattern in the genealogy as well. So many men had two wives in series, the first one being close to his own age, her passing in her late thirtys or early fortys after having five or six children. Then he married a younger woman again who was 20 to 2, with him being 40 to 45. He would then have another family of five or 6 with the younger wife. This was quite common in America and England and these families were mostly protestant.
@@shireecox122well, the question to ask is, do we have any journal entries or documents that add more information? Without more information than the age of the girl, we can’t answer that question based on fact, only based on speculation or “mind reading.” That’s not really great history.
• LDS women became the first women to have the right to vote in the US. • LDS women became one of the first doctors in the US. • Brigham Young founded 10 hospitals (Deseret hospitals). Later, the Church donated these hospitals. NOT everything in church history is bad. Anti Mormons have a fascination for the past mistakes but guess who else has a fascination on bringing back our past mistakes? … the adversary.
LDS women can't hold the priesthood. LDS women can't be prophets or apostles. LDS women were and sometimes still are actively discouraged from pursuing careers or education. Gordon B. Hinckley bought a shopping mall Etc.
I'm not sure anybody is claiming that everything about church history is bad. It's just that the bad stuff is pretty bad and oftentimes members of the church are completely unaware of it. People who are shining light on the negative history of the church or doing so because the church doesn't. So I'm glad that you're sharing some of these good parts of church history. But how long did those 10 hospitals separate blood by race? I mean it's great that they exist but I don't know how many members know about the one drop rule when it came to discriminating against black people in the state of Utah. Anyway I mean no harm I just.. I'm reading through these comments and there's just so much "why do we have to focus on the negative?" And it's because the church completely ignores it and acts like it didn't happen.
THIS!! I was gonna write out my own couple paragraphs, but you put it perfectly. Awareness goes both ways, to learn only about the great things is telling only half the story. Johnny, in his own bias, is telling his side of the story. As someone who has African American ancestry, it’s still pretty tough to see the larger relationship the LDS church has with black folks. (Given the mark of Cain is literally in lGod’s text” smh) This is something I would’ve never known if somebody (who wasn’t in the church) actually told me the truth about the belief system. Shoutout Johnny fr
Are we looking for harm where there was none? Do we acknowledge the harm when there was harm? Somehow I sense an attitude of "It's okay for me to avoid my own salvation because someone acted dodgy once. I am off the hook to go to church because I can find a way to paint that church black." No attack on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds water. Once you hear the entire story, all the details, the truth shows the Church belongs to Jesus Christ in both name and spirit. Meanwhile, I should shut my judgy mouth and repent. I just know that Jesus Christ knows how to do His own work, and can run His Church just fine.
When I was in linguistics we were challenged to use the Desert Alphabet in two ways: 1) write a letter to someone and send them the character key, and 2) read out loud something written in the Deseret Alphabet from the 1800s that. Both tasks were doable. One interesting fact about the Deseret Alphabet is, since it is based on sound, it helped preserve the accent from the New England area in the 1800s to be used in movies.
The history nerd flex had me laughing out loud. The cuts and images etc. in these videos are funny, helpful. Love 'em. And I love the attitude the videos are presented with. No barking like a mad dog. No pitchforks. Just great information presented by someone who comes off as reasonable and trustworthy.
Thanks for what you do! Your balanced responses to slights against the church are exactly what is needed in these discussions. I hope your channel continues to reach bigger and bigger audiences. You’ve earned a loyal subscriber. Keep it up.
6:23 I don’t know if anyone has noticed this before, but the borders of Deseret essentially are a combination of the Colorado River basin and the Great Basin, plus a little bit of California. I always talk about this whenever I’m complaining about the newest drought because it would mean less of a hassle for state water rights lol
Don’t forget, up to this point the LDS settlers had been kicked out of every place they had gone to. It took leaving the United States to finally be able to practice their beliefs without being killed or forced out. When they were setting up their state, they likely wanted to include all the land they had settled since they were primarily that only people in those areas, so why wouldnt they try to claim it as their state too. It worked for Texas, they figured it could work for them.
There are no Mormon Saints. You need the true Christ to be a Saint, and he’s fully absent from this religion of Satan. They have a Bible, but they certainly don’t believe it based on the nonsense Joseph Smith and the other prophets of the false LDS Church have deceived these poor people with 😢
There is an anti-lds tractate from the 1800s, "The Mormon Puzzle", where this guy goes to Utah to discredit Mormons and he basically says, "yea polygamy is weird but not that many people even really do it, so lets go aftee their theology instead."
My Grandpa had 9 kids, 6 girls, my mom being one of them, who were all very close to my grandpa. About 20 years ago he passed away and devastated all the women, many who didn't marry men of God. Listening to your video yesterday and a pull to stay at my parents house brought me a revelation (per se) this morning: God the father is read to be masculine because electricity comes before magnetism (light of the world/ breath of the cosmos). When that light in men is devoid of God it becomes Luciferic and toxic. This brought me to realize that only men of peace can or should be patriarchs and Kings because if you cannot contain your own peace how could you ever contain another and why would you want to. In a world devoid of God it's easy to superimpose that void upon another and intent thereof. People who don't have reverence for God impose the worst aspects of man in their own image upon another. Because my grandpa grounded and contained the family together ungodly men and implications thereof could be ignored until he wasn't there marking the point to which we couldn't ignore and had to correct. What your video in concert with my last 24h showed me is that Godly men took Jurisdiction and venue of women who maybe couldn't on their own whereby there was no other mechanism maybe to do so, and perhaps kept society from falling apart particularizing dependency. This, then an enemy of the state and all things with a vested interest in enmeshment and therefore satanic...
8:20 Yeah I find this idea of “I can’t belong to something that was damaging in the past” to be a little weird. It’s generally one sided. They didn’t renounce their American citizenship when they found out about slavery. They haven’t stopped driving cars or buying tech when they found out a lot of it comes from Israel and they are supporting that occupation. So to hyper-fixate on a single damaging thing and state “this is what I’ll give up” seems strange. As you said, I’m grateful to see progress and improvement.
It’s not so much that it was damaging in the past as that the truth claims are undermined by evidence of many kinds, and an earnest belief in truth is what motivated my membership in the first place.
@@Itsjoemaddock To which I disagree. I probably spent 400+ hours last year listening to Mormon Stories and other exmo content, then doing my own research. My conclusion at the moment is both sides have produced logically correct arguments (sometimes they don’t even reach that metric), but neither have established logical truth. Translation for those that don’t care about formal logic: the arguments follow correct rules of logic, they haven’t proved their assumptions, so it cannot be regarded as truth.
@@AmazingTheScott I'm not sure your question made sense but I'll make an attempt. Despite how many times an atheist will tell you otherwise, there is no to prove or disprove the existence of a deity. It is a fundamental Philosophy 101 principle that the absence of something does not prove its actual non-existence. So I very much believe Mormon theology is logically correct (sometimes called logical soundness) but there are several assumptions that can never be proven/disproven. Chief among them "There is a God and he is your heavenly father." It is only through faith and other methods such as the LDS concept of "feeling the spirit" by which those may become "true" to an LDS member. But based on pure human senses and logic, we cannot. I'm fine with that, other non-believers obviously are not. Another assumption is that Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. I do believe that happened, but there is absolutely no evidence suitable for human senses and reasoning. The trees are not forever scorched. No one else observed it directly, etc. So we are limited to whether the historical records indicate he had sudden new knowledge or information after that day, and then we assume his story is correct and that the information came from God. Finally, for an example of an exmo argument. In the Mormon Stories breakdown of how the BoM came to be, they cast doubt on the idea the book was written only a few months. They used the quote from Lucy Mack Smith that Joseph would recite stories of the old world saying 'He's like a comedian, refining and working out what his best material is.' This is all well and good, but then there is no logical loop back to determine if that was actually true. Was he writing any of this down? Why don't we have those notes? Why don't we have quotes from any family members saying he seemed to be writing a lot during that time? Even comedians don't do that. If he didn't write it down, how does this story with 162 named characters make any sense at all? There are certainly obvious historical examples of complex recited stories such as the Oddessy, but even that has only 120 characters. So their small assumption turns into a very large one. Essentially suggesting Joseph Smith was a better writer and had a more brilliant mind than something regarded as a classic 2000 years later. So they have satisfied "It is possible" within my head, but are very far away from "this is reality and no one can question it."
@@AmazingTheScott YT swallowed up another long response so that’s fun. The TL;DR is that I absolutely believe things like Joseph’s Smiths mechanism of translating from the plates. But it cannot be proven or disproven based on pure logic and human reasoning.
The issue with Johnny Harris is he found himself drifting from his faith in the LDS church, and his reaction was "How do I justify the fact that this was beneficial to me, with the fact I don't believe it anymore?" He kept looking for reasons to distance himself, and he definitely found them, even if he had to make them up.
Just a smaller sub-set that came to mind. After the American civil war it was very common as an economic practice for aged veterans to marry extremely young girls who would act as maids, cooks, and caretakers to these men because when they died the women would receive a widow’s pension for the rest of their lives. I believe the last civil war bride died in the 1950’s or there about.
@@DrPeppering I was going to say this. Her passing was in the news because it was so shocking to people who looked at the Civil War as ancient 😂😂 but yeah, young women giving birth from marriage to old men isn’t new at all. Learning history should never stop because we are only 1 generation away from total ignorance 😅
Let's not forget why the Saints fled to the west. We didn't flee. We were driven. When in Missouri, the government written into law the Boggs Extermination Order. It made it legal to kill any Mormon for any reason. You could hunt us down like deer up until the 1970s. For being in a country founded on the base of freedom to practice your own religion and be free from persecution. We were being driven west. The writers of history books seem to like to leve that fact out. No other religion in the history of the United States has been hunted like deer like the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
That's what I was trying to address in the beginning of the video. Overall, I felt that Johnny's retelling of this portion of Latter-day Saint history was pretty fair - especially compared to what most critics like to say. Aside from the points I address here, and in spite of his general attitude and tone (which is obviously biased against the Church), he stuck to the facts, which I'm grateful for. And in light of that, I can't think of a reason to make a response to the entire video. I only wanted to address a few concerns I had and to add some context and clarity to those concerns. But thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@keystoneldsI felt like he was presenting the history in a way to make people think the church and its members are odd, their beliefs ridiculous, and to lead them to the same beta male conclusion, that the church is harming its members. But I'm also biased, anything sort of this is the truth is offensive to me.
Thanks for making these videos team! For years I’ve wondered how I can learn about complex church history in a way that won’t damage my faith. I love that you bring context, a lens of faith, and you deliver it in a format that is so gee dee entertaining. This is exactly what the church needs. Thank you!
@@Glass-Lookerhad he been "very fair in his presentation" of church history, David would not have responded with his own video or been able to point out important omissions.
Which historians? There is no evidence of this. There’s plenty of people who say this out of tradition, but there is no evidence for the age of Mary. I don’t understand why people try to defend children being wives and mothers.
@@timmiestabrnak @danielclingen34 "The Protovangelion of James (also called The Infancy Gospel of James). The earliest manuscript dates to the 3rd century, but textual analysis has placed the origin to mid- to late-2nd century AD (for comparison, the canonized infancy gospels date to 80-130 AD (Luke) and 80-100 AD (Matthew)). This text states that Mary was 12 when she was betrothed. As with Pseudo-Matthew, it places her in the temple, dedicated to the Lord, living there in the style of Samuel. She has to get married off because the priests are concerned “lest the holy place of the Lord our God be defiled” (8:3) with the onset of puberty (recall that the Law of Holiness required purification after giving birth (Leviticus 12:6 and Luke 2:22) and for menstruation (Lev. 15:19-30))."
Both my grandparents got married as teenagers. One of them had to wait for the ceremony until she turned 16 (her parents’ request). My grandma who graduated high school in 1950 is still alive and she tells me often how her friends got married and kept attending high school until they got pregnant. This wasn’t something all girls did, but it was common enough that no one blinked when it happened. Even in the Little House On the Prairie books, Laura talks about her friends getting married at 13 and 14 years old, and she was not Mormon even though she was alive in pioneer days. People today don’t want to admit that societies around the world married girls once they started menstruation. But, they did. Even Marie Antoinette of Austria married King Louis of France when she was still barely a fresh teenager. The Past is truly a foreign country to the Present.
I don't like Johnny Harris's videos. The dude's understanding of history is just horrendous (the best example is videos on his former religion and the Mexican American war) I honestly find his stuff insulting
His point, is to convince himself, and others, of how evil, idiotic, foolish, dumb, and wrong Mormonism is. Not *really* to express full transparent truth. It’s to tell and shape a narrative
Yeah Johnny is basically disinformation false information youtuber. Sad people actual think they learn something from his videos. they are historical trash
Yeah the church teaches it so much better. I remember in depth church history lessons, historically accurate accounts of the ancestry of the Native Americans that could be proven by DNA evidence, and being taught by revelation straight from God by his chosen prophet/apostles about the divine privilege of the white skin color (unless of course he is speaking as a man). Oh wait...
Why do exmos leave the church.... But cant leave the church? Its like the LDS faith lives rent free in all the exmos head!😳. I just dnt get it. They say they're happy they left the faith, but they sound so unhappy since they left the faith!
@@ahh-2-ahh though not all former members attack the church, I can see how exmos see the church as this cultish organization that needs to be taken down for the benefit of society, like death cults or Scientology. Problem is their bitterness is usually a personal issue with themselves, someone they know, or just their personal theology, and they blame the chruch for every wrong thing in their life.
I’ve seen this alot too. Being anti almost becomes part of their identity, I’m grateful for friends that dont come to church anymore but I can still be social and friendly with. It’s classic breakup behavior, I’m so over you…wonder what you are doing right now? 😂
Hi ex-mo here. Number one, I am happy. I know I can’t convince you my happiness is true happiness, but I promise you it is I am having a good life. Number two if people applied the same logic to other social issues it would be problematic. You left your abuser but you can’t leave abuse alone. You fleed slavery you can’t seem slavery alone. You left an organization that you feel harmed you but you can’t leave it alone and let it harm others. I’m not trying to prove anything. I’m just sharing my perspective and trying to answer your questions.
Hey could you do a video about the garden of Eden being in Missouri I’m very confused and it’s hard when I look it up cuz all I see is anti Mormon literature
What is anti Mormon literature vs Mormon literature? There are facts and fiction you should look at information to see if it's true or false, and not throwing out true information because it wasn't said by someone with the exact same beliefs as you. The church conditions us to think that anyone who doesn't believe in the church can't be trusted. I think what you are asking, is for someone to sugar coat a tough pill to swallow. I used to be in the same boat where I was looking for answers to all of these hard questions. But just like real sugar doesn't give you lasting nutritional satisfaction these sugar coated responses also don't satisfy your sincere questions and concerns.
@@darrencollinwood142 that’s very important to think about and I appreciate your comment I try to be honest and not shy away from the truth because of a belief but I know with certainty the church is true and I the question I had has been kinda answered but thanks for commenting and have a great day
@@Mjthegoat45 I am very curious what the answer to the question about the garden of Eden and Missouri being the start of human existence on earth. It's been a big question for me too. Science claims that humans started in Africa and DNA studies show that all native Americans came across the land bridge from Asia 12k years ago.
@@darrencollinwood142 I have no clue about the garden of Eden but as for native Americans being from Asia, I know that that is definitely true, but something to consider is that a huge amount of natives were killed by smallpox and disease in the discovery of the americas and also we haven’t explored a huge majority of mesoamerica. With those it’s possible that nephites and lamanites were real. I am not the best source of info so I would recommend doing research on the Book of Mormon. That’s the keystone of the religion and let the spirit testify of what is true.
The Deseret alphabet did some really cool things. It has characters for sounds that use two letters in English. Like “ch” in change has a single character.
@eljefeelpadron1843 polyamory by definition includes both women loving multiple men and men loving multiple women. Both are becoming more accepted regardless of the morality of it.
We have to remember these people just faced severe persecution and many of the men were killed. God used polygamy to care for these women and discontinued it at the appropriate time.
That is a myth that needs to be corrected. That is not why polygamy was practiced. Please read D&C 132. And as far as it ending when it was appropriate is also incorrect. The church ended it because of pressure from the government. It is still doctrine today. Just not practiced for the living. Currently Russell M Nelson and Elder Oaks are both sealed to two woman.
I completely agree with you but to add also D&C 29:34 … all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam…. Just to emphasize that polygamy wasn’t instituted because of mortal circumstances.
It’s unfortunate that 2M so far have seen Johnny’s video but only 20K or so saw this one, wish they could look at the case from both sides y’know what I’m saying
4:06 it’s not inappropriate to put current moral standards onto past generations. If you aren’t able to do that, then you must admit your morality is subjective, not objective.
Morality (right and wrong) has to do with both actions and motives. With any action, there are always associated motives, which in general may vary greatly for groups of people by culture, and time in history. Knowing this, I believe it is absolutely appropriate to take a step back and try and understand the mindset and motives behind the actions of others in history and put ourselves in their shoes to understand why they may have done the things they did. That can help us gain a better understanding and evaluate moral decisions, though we still have to be careful not to assume we always know people's motives based on how an associated group culture was or our limited information on the individuals themselves.
Very lacking on the Mountain Meadows Massacre. First the members who did this were all first generation converts and still carried a lot of anger about not only the murder of Joseph Smith, but also the Missourians who beat and raped their women in Missouri. These people traveling through the area did boast of being part of that attack on the LDS community in Missouri and claimed that the army marching on Utah would allow a repeat of that atrocity that happened less than 20 years ago. It was reported that they were also poisoning wells by throwing dead animals in them. There was also a good deal of fear about the US Army marching on Utah and what would happen. Brigham Young was occupied with trying to bring peace to the conflict while this group of settlers was in southern Utah some distance away. The Church members reacted to these problems like much of the pioneer people did against the Indians and decided to kill all but the infants. They used the local Indians to scare the pioneers and then promised them safe passage by escort. Then, at a signal, they shot all the Adults and children adopting only the infants into their families. We have a saying: we make bad men good and good men better. I believe that the combination of past persecution and the pending arrival of the US Army (10,000+) bent on punishing the Church along with some bad characters in the pioneer group triggered the local decision to kill the pioneers. If you realize the atrocities of Missouri, and that they claimed to have been a part of it, you too might have been tempted to take revenge. Brigham Young, in a tense negotiation, was able to calm the leaders of the Army and avoid conflict in the Salt Lake area.
One other piece I never see mentioned is that there were multiple men that said no within the community, even after all that happened. There were men like Jacob Hamblin who actively tried to stop it by riding as fast as he possibly could to Brigham Young in Salt Lake at a time when most Latter Day Saint settlements were on basically lockdown in fortified communities. My husband and I both have family who were in the Cedar City area. Both of the patriarchs of those families attended the meeting where this was proposed, forbade their households from having anything involved, and my own some number of greats grandfather testified against John D Lee in the trial. This was far from some gung-ho unified community effort.
The famous words of Brigham Young that speaks volumes of the fallibility of men was his afternoon sermon that started out: "This morning, you heard Brigham Young. But now Thus saith the Lord" where he completely reversed himself choosing peace instead of war.
Thanks for the video suggestion. In the meantime, this is a great resource: mormonr.org/qnas/5y13H/second_anointing?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwz7C2BhDkARIsAA_SZKYlt1SDxHzl8DWpjXzhWQIg8ounuf1oZjrjCTo-2NtSI4sL7gQ6ShIaAkNjEALw_wcB
What Johnny doesn't realize is that he is furthering the work of the church. People listen to him and investigate the church and discover the truth. Thanks Johnny.
Saw this video pop up in my feed and felt I shouldn't watch it. Scrolled past. And now your video popped up the same day! Thanks for your thoughtful and fair response!
That's more about his personal experiences. You can't really push back against someone's personal experiences the way you can with historical interpretations that they make.
Additional correction: In the video Johnny Harris says Joseph Smith is "... father to 14 children, husband to 40 wives". Every source I look at says Joseph Smith had 11 children, two of whom were adopted, all with Emma. I'm not sure where he got 14 from. There were allegations he had children with some of his plural wives but none have been proven. The way it's phrased sort of implies that he had these children with all these women when in reality they were all with Emma. It also skips over adoption which would give a different impression.
“It would be inappropriate to apply our current understanding on people 150 years ago.” Yes, times were different, but everyone around them seemed to be critical of their practices at the time. No one thought Mormons were normal 150 years ago.
It wasn't because of polygamy because it wasn't introduced and practiced on a noticeable scale until well after heavy persecution was already present. They were driven from state to state before polygamy. People hated the mormons because they were anlarge political block and converted a lot of people.
@@NateDecker1982this was a fear but no when Joseph rallied the Mormon mob to destroy the printing press the expositor, that was the nail in the coffin that got him killed. Polygamy was also a concern for people as well. But you are right, people were afraid of what Mormons were capable of because of their number, what they believed and they would do ANYTHING for Joseph.
@@coolblubird the ages of marriage in the LDS community wasn’t different from other communities on the frontier. People who claim it was, clearly haven’t studied much history 🤷♀️
I totally agree with you David. He lets some presuppositions & assumptions linger out there for the listener to backfill undoubtedly erroneously. Otherwise, I thought Johnny was relatively fair in his video (with some notable exceptions). For anyone who hasn't read it, the first section of the Light and Truth Letter talks about manipulation tactics used by critics
2:48 regarding presentism, early Mormon polygamy was absolutely not socially ok or accepted in that time. Old men marrying young girls was a huge complaint during that time against Mormonism.
It’s interesting we often refer to Joseph Smith as a boy when he was doing the work of a man at this age. We also refer to the kids his age as young men now.
I find it interesting that the attack on teenage brides comes up over and over again without any historical context. Age of Consent laws weren’t firmly established in the United States until generally the 1880s. Even then, those ages were generally around the time of menarche except for Delaware which was 7. Later in the 20th Century the ages were raised. Thus, it can be assumed that not only were the marriages to teenage brides legal but also accepted by the general public.
Men marrying kids will never not be weird to me. I understand that there’s some serious bias and cultural conditioning for me to say that, but I just don’t think you can look at that and not be put off. It’s a stumbling stone, to be sure. And it’s certainly tripped up plenty of the people around me.
I think it’s important whether you are a believer in the church or not to look at the data without lenses on. Your first point is literally refuted by the graph that Johnny shows. I paused the video to analyze it and I’ve cross referenced it to typical data of the time. The graph shows that while the rest of the US’s marriage ages were increasing, Utah bride’s age was declining in polygamous marriages specifically. The old argument of being able to provide more children does not hold true either. Think of those 56 wives of Brigham Young had they married monogamously if each had just 2-3 children (a small batch of kids for the time) then there would have been more children/population. And statistically speaking it is so easy to fact check marriage ages in the mid to late 1800s. No it is not early to mid teens. And a 13 year old bride? Whether the marriage was consummated or not she was now unable to court. Her life was essentially ruined. Again this has nothing to do with whether you are a believing member or not. You can believe in the good parts of the church that bless your life and your family. But be sure to take off any lenses of belief to fact check and be willing to accept data over the stories.
They've already done a few videos on The Book of Abraham. They're just all on the Saints Unscripted channel ruclips.net/video/I11WGlmkyKE/видео.html ruclips.net/video/_bXrGaE4MpE/видео.html ruclips.net/video/RY_zDpv2IF0/видео.html ruclips.net/video/njsJ2XoLXLI/видео.html Not from Saints Unscripted, but this article helped me out a ton when it came to Book of Abraham issues theapotheosisnarrative.wordpress.com/2020/08/16/the-catalyst-theory-has-always-been-at-the-core-of-mormonism/
People are offended by polygamy when they have body counts in the 100’s. How dare a man actually take responsibility for the women he is sleeping with?
Ugggh too many “they leave the church but they can’t leave it alone” comments here. Active member here. It drives me crazy when my fellow members say/write that phrase. Guys, Mormonism is more than just a church you attend from time to time. Mormonism is a culture. Mormonism shapes lives. Mormonism creates the framework by which people live. On top of all of that, many “exmos” are still on the records of the church, still have family who are members, still live in communities with active members, etc. And members of this faith don’t leave exmos alone. We don’t. We reach out. We text. We knock on their door. We call. We try to bring them back into the fold. And then we wonder why they express themselves on social media. You know, social media, the platforms that are DESIGNED to get people to post stuff. And we get offended when they post stuff we don’t agree with. C’mon ya’ll. Get over yourselves. Who cares if people post their experience, their beliefs, and their criticisms of the church. Let them worship how, where or what they may. And leave it at that.
From the day they were born, I've taught my 10 living children that we have two choices when we're reproved; we can repent, or we can blame someone else. God bless Johnny that he will make the right choice.
@@Itsjoemaddock Perhaps from the perspective of the "great and spacious building." But as the Savior taught, repentance is the healing process that brings about salvation. Blaming someone else never leads to personal salvation in God's kingdom.
@@oxfordbuckingham5841 I mean I get the sentiment… but taking that mindset would make it really easy for someone to take advantage of you. We don’t want to fixate too much on blaming others… but if we can revert to Christian rhetoric to make it where other people are basically “never” wrong… I mean, there’s a certain danger there…
@@Itsjoemaddock You're not making much sense, sorry. I don't see how anyone can take advantage of me. Actually, if you look at most human nature you will see that the choice to take responsibility for one's actions and repent if on the wrong side and, if not, to blame others is how most people respond to personal error. They have an issue with pride that is their obstacle to taking the route the Savior promoted, which is the route of contriteness, humility and repentance; Sunday School 101.
@@oxfordbuckingham5841 OK… let’s make it concrete. Let’s say that the Book of Abraham is demonstrably a false translation, that all evidence points to it being made up by Joseph Smith. If I point out that fact, am I revealing that I have a secret sin? Is there any lie that the leaders of the church could tell that I could point out without revealing myself as a sinner by this logic?
Israel is infamous we written about about for its sin and disobedience to God. Israel also had very little to do with the Bible. Furthermore, kings were not spiritual leaders.
It’s interesting what you explained about sister Fairchild divorcing Brigham Young. Do we know if she went on to have children with her second husband? Do you happen to know how many of Brigham Young’s wives ended up divorcing him? Researching family history and realizing how often divorce was chosen made me much more comfortable with the pioneer practiceof plural marriage. I am personally very grateful to not be asked to practice or gain a testimony of plural marriage, but I feel less condemnatory of it if it was truly something that was actively chosen by our foremothers. Seeing that divorce was an option which could be pursued during the early decades of the church shows an opportunity for women to exercise autonomy. It even seems like there was very little stigma around divorce in the church during that time period?
On FamilySearch it looks like she had 2 children with another husband, and then 2 more with another husband, for a total of 4 children. And yes, divorce was surprisingly accessible in pioneer Utah.
Young wives is a problem for me, and for most people I know. I realize it was a different time but still…… I haven’t left the Church over it, but I would like some more explanation of why. Why? What was the need of that?
We'll be getting more in-depth into that data in an upcoming episode. I included lots of resources in the RUclips description of this video that might be helpful in the meantime, though!
I love how you mentioned what it means to be "the chosen people of the Lord." That phrase has been misunderstood by so many people! What you said is exactly right about the church, just like it was about the Israelites. They were chosen to be a holy priesthood to serve the rest of the world. Much the same way that the Levites served all Israel. Yes, there are Jews that take it to mean they're better than anyone else, and there are members of the church that think that they are better than anyone else. Those people are wrong!
We are all entitled to our opinions, however it sad to see that those who leave the Church are so hostile to us. I hope that hearts will be softened.👍🇦🇺🙏
Questioning members and those who leave the church are upset because they are maligned and demonized by their TBM family for daring to do so. President Nelson has been stoking the fire of dissention among those with his rhetoric to "never take counsel from those who do not believe", and those that leave are "lazy learners and lax disciples". How is that kind and loving?
Why did no one address that Brigham did nothing to punish those who murdered? Also he encouraged cattle raiding and so is responsible for these actions also.
07:34 It doesn’t matter if Young didn’t approve the massacre. This is a militia FORMED by the Mormon Church. I understand he wants to “not justify it”, but still wants to shift the blame.
@@fightingfortruth9806 Those migrants hadn’t done anything to Mormons nor declared war. This was a violent attack orchestrated by the some in the Mormon leadership. Whatever other people had done previously to them has no bearing in this.
Another point of context: My wife does a lot of ‘indexing’, where she reads batches of birth, marriage, or death records and enters the data into a form so it can be added to a searchable database. Many of these records are from the 1800’s. She’s constantly amazed by how many of the brides were young teenagers when they got married. Most of the husbands were much older than their wives. These records are from Missouri, Arkansas, Texas, and the like. The individuals whose names were recorded on these records were not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They may have never heard of the Church. So, why would we find it odd that people in Utah got married at similar ages?
Why did women get married so young while men got married so much later in life? At the time, and for much of human history, marriage was primarily an economic partnership. When a woman was ready to have and raise children of her own, she was ready to marry. Her economic value to the marriage - the number and health of the children she could produce - was at its peak. It would only decrease as she got older. The same wasn’t true for men. In general, it took a young man a decade or more to establish himself financially so he could support a wife and family. This meant that the most attractive available men - the ones with an established farm or business - were likely in their 30’s or 40’s. Those were the men young women wanted to marry, the ones who could support the children she would contribute to the marriage.
It is patently apparent that all someone needs to do, for profit and some attention, is to accuse Latter-day Saints of some additional horrific thing, with absolutely no substance or evidence, and the immediate hullabaloo is guaranteed!! THIS sort of action is Satanically sponsored!! Accurate, reasonable and documented evidence like yours is vital!!
It’s not shocking that young girls got married to older men. It’s shocking that Brigham married a 13 year old when he already had many wives. What was the point of it?
Thank you. So many now a days have no idea about this. And aren't taught this. While some of us older people were taught this in school.
I have noticed a similar pattern in the genealogy as well.
So many men had two wives in series, the first one being close to his own age, her passing in her late thirtys or early fortys after having five or six children. Then he married a younger woman again who was 20 to 2, with him being 40 to 45. He would then have another family of five or 6 with the younger wife. This was quite common in America and England and these families were mostly protestant.
@@shireecox122well, the question to ask is, do we have any journal entries or documents that add more information? Without more information than the age of the girl, we can’t answer that question based on fact, only based on speculation or “mind reading.” That’s not really great history.
Keystone, ur content makes me happy
Relaxed, unleashed David Snell is awesome. Let him use his knowledge to just sit back and cook. Excellent work at Keystone
LET HIM COOK 🔥🔥🔥
Hey its that one famous guy from the hit show, ward radio.
David is unflappable! Love it!
• LDS women became the first women to have the right to vote in the US.
• LDS women became one of the first doctors in the US.
• Brigham Young founded 10 hospitals (Deseret hospitals). Later, the Church donated these hospitals.
NOT everything in church history is bad. Anti Mormons have a fascination for the past mistakes but guess who else has a fascination on bringing back our past mistakes? … the adversary.
LDS women can't hold the priesthood.
LDS women can't be prophets or apostles.
LDS women were and sometimes still are actively discouraged from pursuing careers or education.
Gordon B. Hinckley bought a shopping mall
Etc.
Sadly.
They should not be voting. The US Founding Fathers had it right.
I'm not sure anybody is claiming that everything about church history is bad. It's just that the bad stuff is pretty bad and oftentimes members of the church are completely unaware of it. People who are shining light on the negative history of the church or doing so because the church doesn't.
So I'm glad that you're sharing some of these good parts of church history. But how long did those 10 hospitals separate blood by race? I mean it's great that they exist but I don't know how many members know about the one drop rule when it came to discriminating against black people in the state of Utah.
Anyway I mean no harm I just.. I'm reading through these comments and there's just so much "why do we have to focus on the negative?" And it's because the church completely ignores it and acts like it didn't happen.
THIS!!
I was gonna write out my own couple paragraphs, but you put it perfectly.
Awareness goes both ways, to learn only about the great things is telling only half the story. Johnny, in his own bias, is telling his side of the story.
As someone who has African American ancestry, it’s still pretty tough to see the larger relationship the LDS church has with black folks. (Given the mark of Cain is literally in lGod’s text” smh)
This is something I would’ve never known if somebody (who wasn’t in the church) actually told me the truth about the belief system. Shoutout Johnny fr
Are we looking for harm where there was none? Do we acknowledge the harm when there was harm?
Somehow I sense an attitude of "It's okay for me to avoid my own salvation because someone acted dodgy once. I am off the hook to go to church because I can find a way to paint that church black."
No attack on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds water. Once you hear the entire story, all the details, the truth shows the Church belongs to Jesus Christ in both name and spirit.
Meanwhile, I should shut my judgy mouth and repent. I just know that Jesus Christ knows how to do His own work, and can run His Church just fine.
When I was in linguistics we were challenged to use the Desert Alphabet in two ways: 1) write a letter to someone and send them the character key, and 2) read out loud something written in the Deseret Alphabet from the 1800s that. Both tasks were doable.
One interesting fact about the Deseret Alphabet is, since it is based on sound, it helped preserve the accent from the New England area in the 1800s to be used in movies.
Cool!
The history nerd flex had me laughing out loud. The cuts and images etc. in these videos are funny, helpful. Love 'em. And I love the attitude the videos are presented with. No barking like a mad dog. No pitchforks. Just great information presented by someone who comes off as reasonable and trustworthy.
Thanks for what you do! Your balanced responses to slights against the church are exactly what is needed in these discussions. I hope your channel continues to reach bigger and bigger audiences. You’ve earned a loyal subscriber. Keep it up.
"Monogamy is God's" standard is LDS presentism.
Dang! I am very jealous of the Deseret alphabet Book of Mormon!! Very cool!
6:23
I don’t know if anyone has noticed this before, but the borders of Deseret essentially are a combination of the Colorado River basin and the Great Basin, plus a little bit of California.
I always talk about this whenever I’m complaining about the newest drought because it would mean less of a hassle for state water rights lol
Geographic boundaries make more sense than what we see in the West now
Emma Smith's parents were worried that she was a spinster because she was in her 20s and not married.
Thank you David! Like always, great work!
Don’t forget, up to this point the LDS settlers had been kicked out of every place they had gone to. It took leaving the United States to finally be able to practice their beliefs without being killed or forced out.
When they were setting up their state, they likely wanted to include all the land they had settled since they were primarily that only people in those areas, so why wouldnt they try to claim it as their state too. It worked for Texas, they figured it could work for them.
Also the double standards of baby daddies today being acceptable but legally committing to multiple women being taboo 😅
My grandparents were married at 14 and 16 years old.
Good for them! Your voice would not be here had they not.
Keep in mind 3% of the saints were in polygamy.
There are no Mormon Saints. You need the true Christ to be a Saint, and he’s fully absent from this religion of Satan. They have a Bible, but they certainly don’t believe it based on the nonsense Joseph Smith and the other prophets of the false LDS Church have deceived these poor people with 😢
Just curious where those numbers are coming from?
@@zenvis From a social, economic, and demographic perspective, the saints in Utah wouldn't have survived without polygamy.
There is an anti-lds tractate from the 1800s, "The Mormon Puzzle", where this guy goes to Utah to discredit Mormons and he basically says, "yea polygamy is weird but not that many people even really do it, so lets go aftee their theology instead."
There are several other historical documents but this is just one.
My Grandpa had 9 kids, 6 girls, my mom being one of them, who were all very close to my grandpa.
About 20 years ago he passed away and devastated all the women, many who didn't marry men of God.
Listening to your video yesterday and a pull to stay at my parents house brought me a revelation (per se) this morning:
God the father is read to be masculine because electricity comes before magnetism (light of the world/ breath of the cosmos).
When that light in men is devoid of God it becomes Luciferic and toxic.
This brought me to realize that only men of peace can or should be patriarchs and Kings because if you cannot contain your own peace how could you ever contain another and why would you want to.
In a world devoid of God it's easy to superimpose that void upon another and intent thereof.
People who don't have reverence for God impose the worst aspects of man in their own image upon another.
Because my grandpa grounded and contained the family together ungodly men and implications thereof could be ignored until he wasn't there marking the point to which we couldn't ignore and had to correct.
What your video in concert with my last 24h showed me is that Godly men took Jurisdiction and venue of women who maybe couldn't on their own whereby there was no other mechanism maybe to do so, and perhaps kept society from falling apart particularizing dependency.
This, then an enemy of the state and all things with a vested interest in enmeshment and therefore satanic...
8:20 Yeah I find this idea of “I can’t belong to something that was damaging in the past” to be a little weird. It’s generally one sided. They didn’t renounce their American citizenship when they found out about slavery. They haven’t stopped driving cars or buying tech when they found out a lot of it comes from Israel and they are supporting that occupation.
So to hyper-fixate on a single damaging thing and state “this is what I’ll give up” seems strange. As you said, I’m grateful to see progress and improvement.
It’s not so much that it was damaging in the past as that the truth claims are undermined by evidence of many kinds, and an earnest belief in truth is what motivated my membership in the first place.
@@Itsjoemaddock To which I disagree. I probably spent 400+ hours last year listening to Mormon Stories and other exmo content, then doing my own research. My conclusion at the moment is both sides have produced logically correct arguments (sometimes they don’t even reach that metric), but neither have established logical truth. Translation for those that don’t care about formal logic: the arguments follow correct rules of logic, they haven’t proved their assumptions, so it cannot be regarded as truth.
@@aaronchamberlain4698 id be curious on what you would say the current logical argument mormon believers was and how/why you feel its illogical.
@@AmazingTheScott I'm not sure your question made sense but I'll make an attempt.
Despite how many times an atheist will tell you otherwise, there is no to prove or disprove the existence of a deity. It is a fundamental Philosophy 101 principle that the absence of something does not prove its actual non-existence. So I very much believe Mormon theology is logically correct (sometimes called logical soundness) but there are several assumptions that can never be proven/disproven. Chief among them "There is a God and he is your heavenly father." It is only through faith and other methods such as the LDS concept of "feeling the spirit" by which those may become "true" to an LDS member. But based on pure human senses and logic, we cannot. I'm fine with that, other non-believers obviously are not.
Another assumption is that Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. I do believe that happened, but there is absolutely no evidence suitable for human senses and reasoning. The trees are not forever scorched. No one else observed it directly, etc. So we are limited to whether the historical records indicate he had sudden new knowledge or information after that day, and then we assume his story is correct and that the information came from God.
Finally, for an example of an exmo argument. In the Mormon Stories breakdown of how the BoM came to be, they cast doubt on the idea the book was written only a few months. They used the quote from Lucy Mack Smith that Joseph would recite stories of the old world saying 'He's like a comedian, refining and working out what his best material is.' This is all well and good, but then there is no logical loop back to determine if that was actually true. Was he writing any of this down? Why don't we have those notes? Why don't we have quotes from any family members saying he seemed to be writing a lot during that time? Even comedians don't do that. If he didn't write it down, how does this story with 162 named characters make any sense at all? There are certainly obvious historical examples of complex recited stories such as the Oddessy, but even that has only 120 characters. So their small assumption turns into a very large one. Essentially suggesting Joseph Smith was a better writer and had a more brilliant mind than something regarded as a classic 2000 years later. So they have satisfied "It is possible" within my head, but are very far away from "this is reality and no one can question it."
@@AmazingTheScott YT swallowed up another long response so that’s fun. The TL;DR is that I absolutely believe things like Joseph’s Smiths mechanism of translating from the plates. But it cannot be proven or disproven based on pure logic and human reasoning.
Men married younger women back in those days in monogamous and polygamous relationships both in & out of the church.
Are you suggesting that its ok that *Prophets that “speak directly to God” * married children…. because God told them too, and it was normal then
So the church isn’t any different than the rest of the world?
God told Joseph to Marry Mary when she was 14. Yeah, I'm okay with it.
@@fightingfortruth9806 would you be ok with it if God told Russell M Nelson to marry a 14 year old today?
@@fightingfortruth9806What could the prophet do that you would not be ok with?
The issue with Johnny Harris is he found himself drifting from his faith in the LDS church, and his reaction was "How do I justify the fact that this was beneficial to me, with the fact I don't believe it anymore?"
He kept looking for reasons to distance himself, and he definitely found them, even if he had to make them up.
Just a smaller sub-set that came to mind. After the American civil war it was very common as an economic practice for aged veterans to marry extremely young girls who would act as maids, cooks, and caretakers to these men because when they died the women would receive a widow’s pension for the rest of their lives. I believe the last civil war bride died in the 1950’s or there about.
It's even crazier! The last Civil War bride died in 2020! As a teenager she married a 93 year old veteran. And then went on to be over 100!
@@DrPeppering I was going to say this. Her passing was in the news because it was so shocking to people who looked at the Civil War as ancient 😂😂 but yeah, young women giving birth from marriage to old men isn’t new at all. Learning history should never stop because we are only 1 generation away from total ignorance 😅
Let's not forget why the Saints fled to the west. We didn't flee. We were driven. When in Missouri, the government written into law the Boggs Extermination Order. It made it legal to kill any Mormon for any reason. You could hunt us down like deer up until the 1970s. For being in a country founded on the base of freedom to practice your own religion and be free from persecution. We were being driven west. The writers of history books seem to like to leve that fact out. No other religion in the history of the United States has been hunted like deer like the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Thanks!
Always love these.
Loving the new channel!!! ❤️
Could you make a video responding to his full video?
That's what I was trying to address in the beginning of the video. Overall, I felt that Johnny's retelling of this portion of Latter-day Saint history was pretty fair - especially compared to what most critics like to say. Aside from the points I address here, and in spite of his general attitude and tone (which is obviously biased against the Church), he stuck to the facts, which I'm grateful for. And in light of that, I can't think of a reason to make a response to the entire video. I only wanted to address a few concerns I had and to add some context and clarity to those concerns. But thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@keystoneldsI felt like he was presenting the history in a way to make people think the church and its members are odd, their beliefs ridiculous, and to lead them to the same beta male conclusion, that the church is harming its members. But I'm also biased, anything sort of this is the truth is offensive to me.
I love your style. I also like how you provide context
History Nerd flex for this win! That's all I needed to see, case closed.
That *was* pretty cool after all. 😅👍
So so good Dave. Well said.
Thanks for making these videos team! For years I’ve wondered how I can learn about complex church history in a way that won’t damage my faith.
I love that you bring context, a lens of faith, and you deliver it in a format that is so gee dee entertaining. This is exactly what the church needs. Thank you!
Thank you David! ❤
And he ended up being what he promised he would never be: an anti-Mormon.
well he is a flaming liberal. not surprised
*Inserts iconic Star Wars scene*
if the church lied to you, would you continue to support it, or hold them accountable for their lies
He is not anti-Mormon, he is just presenting the history with a little commentary. He is very fair in his presentation.
@@Glass-Lookerhad he been "very fair in his presentation" of church history, David would not have responded with his own video or been able to point out important omissions.
Another fantastic video! Thank you!
Historians say Mary was 12 or 13 when she was betrothed to Joseph and became the Mother of the Savior.
Which historians? There is no evidence of this. There’s plenty of people who say this out of tradition, but there is no evidence for the age of Mary. I don’t understand why people try to defend children being wives and mothers.
@@timmiestabrnak @danielclingen34 "The Protovangelion of James (also called The Infancy Gospel of James). The earliest manuscript dates to the 3rd century, but textual analysis has placed the origin to mid- to late-2nd century AD (for comparison, the canonized infancy gospels date to 80-130 AD (Luke) and 80-100 AD (Matthew)). This text states that Mary was 12 when she was betrothed. As with Pseudo-Matthew, it places her in the temple, dedicated to the Lord, living there in the style of Samuel. She has to get married off because the priests are concerned “lest the holy place of the Lord our God be defiled” (8:3) with the onset of puberty (recall that the Law of Holiness required purification after giving birth (Leviticus 12:6 and Luke 2:22) and for menstruation (Lev. 15:19-30))."
Love the channel and thanks for being such an honest story teller
Both my grandparents got married as teenagers. One of them had to wait for the ceremony until she turned 16 (her parents’ request). My grandma who graduated high school in 1950 is still alive and she tells me often how her friends got married and kept attending high school until they got pregnant. This wasn’t something all girls did, but it was common enough that no one blinked when it happened. Even in the Little House On the Prairie books, Laura talks about her friends getting married at 13 and 14 years old, and she was not Mormon even though she was alive in pioneer days.
People today don’t want to admit that societies around the world married girls once they started menstruation. But, they did. Even Marie Antoinette of Austria married King Louis of France when she was still barely a fresh teenager. The Past is truly a foreign country to the Present.
I don't like Johnny Harris's videos. The dude's understanding of history is just horrendous (the best example is videos on his former religion and the Mexican American war) I honestly find his stuff insulting
His point, is to convince himself, and others, of how evil, idiotic, foolish, dumb, and wrong Mormonism is. Not *really* to express full transparent truth. It’s to tell and shape a narrative
He's a spineless tool
I agree. At best, he's a journalist who deals with current events, pretending to be a historian.
Yeah Johnny is basically disinformation false information youtuber. Sad people actual think they learn something from his videos. they are historical trash
Yeah the church teaches it so much better. I remember in depth church history lessons, historically accurate accounts of the ancestry of the Native Americans that could be proven by DNA evidence, and being taught by revelation straight from God by his chosen prophet/apostles about the divine privilege of the white skin color (unless of course he is speaking as a man).
Oh wait...
Great video, I appreciate your work. 🤙
Why do exmos leave the church.... But cant leave the church? Its like the LDS faith lives rent free in all the exmos head!😳. I just dnt get it.
They say they're happy they left the faith, but they sound so unhappy since they left the faith!
@@ahh-2-ahh though not all former members attack the church, I can see how exmos see the church as this cultish organization that needs to be taken down for the benefit of society, like death cults or Scientology.
Problem is their bitterness is usually a personal issue with themselves, someone they know, or just their personal theology, and they blame the chruch for every wrong thing in their life.
I’ve seen this alot too. Being anti almost becomes part of their identity, I’m grateful for friends that dont come to church anymore but I can still be social and friendly with. It’s classic breakup behavior, I’m so over you…wonder what you are doing right now? 😂
Pretty much every ex-mo channel has a video response to this. It's on the B.I.N.G.O. card.
Hi ex-mo here. Number one, I am happy. I know I can’t convince you my happiness is true happiness, but I promise you it is I am having a good life.
Number two if people applied the same logic to other social issues it would be problematic. You left your abuser but you can’t leave abuse alone. You fleed slavery you can’t seem slavery alone. You left an organization that you feel harmed you but you can’t leave it alone and let it harm others.
I’m not trying to prove anything. I’m just sharing my perspective and trying to answer your questions.
thats kinda what happens when you loved something/someone n u realize it was a lie so it messes u up for awhile = decades
Hey could you do a video about the garden of Eden being in Missouri I’m very confused and it’s hard when I look it up cuz all I see is anti Mormon literature
What is anti Mormon literature vs Mormon literature? There are facts and fiction you should look at information to see if it's true or false, and not throwing out true information because it wasn't said by someone with the exact same beliefs as you.
The church conditions us to think that anyone who doesn't believe in the church can't be trusted.
I think what you are asking, is for someone to sugar coat a tough pill to swallow.
I used to be in the same boat where I was looking for answers to all of these hard questions. But just like real sugar doesn't give you lasting nutritional satisfaction these sugar coated responses also don't satisfy your sincere questions and concerns.
@@darrencollinwood142 that’s very important to think about and I appreciate your comment I try to be honest and not shy away from the truth because of a belief but I know with certainty the church is true and I the question I had has been kinda answered but thanks for commenting and have a great day
@@Mjthegoat45 I am very curious what the answer to the question about the garden of Eden and Missouri being the start of human existence on earth. It's been a big question for me too.
Science claims that humans started in Africa and DNA studies show that all native Americans came across the land bridge from Asia 12k years ago.
@@darrencollinwood142 I have no clue about the garden of Eden but as for native Americans being from Asia, I know that that is definitely true, but something to consider is that a huge amount of natives were killed by smallpox and disease in the discovery of the americas and also we haven’t explored a huge majority of mesoamerica. With those it’s possible that nephites and lamanites were real. I am not the best source of info so I would recommend doing research on the Book of Mormon. That’s the keystone of the religion and let the spirit testify of what is true.
Awesome review! I love to hear your testimony!
The Deseret alphabet did some really cool things. It has characters for sounds that use two letters in English. Like “ch” in change has a single character.
Nice reaction! I comment for the algorithm love 😊
Big D! Keep on cooking. You da most reasonable and Christlike LDS voice we got out there. Keep it real, calm and true!
Hypergamy doesn't care what Johnny Harris thinks. Polygamy was normal throughout human history among all cultures.
Doesn’t matter, polygamy is wrong
Even now, forms of polyamory are becoming highly accepted, I even work with a guy that's poly.
@@nicholasalfiero1092 hypergamy doesn't care about your worldview on morals. It just is.
@@Foxtayls polygamy was normal. Polyamory (women seeing multiple men) is not.
@eljefeelpadron1843 polyamory by definition includes both women loving multiple men and men loving multiple women. Both are becoming more accepted regardless of the morality of it.
My grandmother married my grandfather at 15 years old in 1957. He was 22 years old. (they were Catholics)
We have to remember these people just faced severe persecution and many of the men were killed. God used polygamy to care for these women and discontinued it at the appropriate time.
That is a myth that needs to be corrected. That is not why polygamy was practiced. Please read D&C 132. And as far as it ending when it was appropriate is also incorrect. The church ended it because of pressure from the government. It is still doctrine today. Just not practiced for the living. Currently Russell M Nelson and Elder Oaks are both sealed to two woman.
I completely agree with you but to add also D&C 29:34 … all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam….
Just to emphasize that polygamy wasn’t instituted because of mortal circumstances.
@@no1uno816Thanks for the response. It looks as if my comment you replied to has been removed
Many of the women Smith and Young married were already married, weird argument.
@@soufianechbani1922
So what if their gentile husband's beat them?
It’s unfortunate that 2M so far have seen Johnny’s video but only 20K or so saw this one, wish they could look at the case from both sides y’know what I’m saying
Thanks for doing what you do
4:06 it’s not inappropriate to put current moral standards onto past generations. If you aren’t able to do that, then you must admit your morality is subjective, not objective.
Morality (right and wrong) has to do with both actions and motives. With any action, there are always associated motives, which in general may vary greatly for groups of people by culture, and time in history. Knowing this, I believe it is absolutely appropriate to take a step back and try and understand the mindset and motives behind the actions of others in history and put ourselves in their shoes to understand why they may have done the things they did. That can help us gain a better understanding and evaluate moral decisions, though we still have to be careful not to assume we always know people's motives based on how an associated group culture was or our limited information on the individuals themselves.
Yasssssssss
Keep reacting to Johnny’s videos related to the church!
I love the Back To The Future Picture in the background of Marty McFly and Doc Brown.
You are the first person in recent memory that has independently noticed this. Thank you.
Excelente video, muy bien argumentado, felicitaciones y adelante, saludos desde Montevideo Uruguay
I love the humility you approach things
3:20 didnt the prophets and apostles talk directly to God though? Does Gods law change based on ‘presentism’
What do you think?
@@coltonsosa7911 i think god wouldn’t ever command his prophets and apostles to marry little girls. Regardless, of ‘precentism’. What do you think?
Very lacking on the Mountain Meadows Massacre. First the members who did this were all first generation converts and still carried a lot of anger about not only the murder of Joseph Smith, but also the Missourians who beat and raped their women in Missouri. These people traveling through the area did boast of being part of that attack on the LDS community in Missouri and claimed that the army marching on Utah would allow a repeat of that atrocity that happened less than 20 years ago. It was reported that they were also poisoning wells by throwing dead animals in them. There was also a good deal of fear about the US Army marching on Utah and what would happen. Brigham Young was occupied with trying to bring peace to the conflict while this group of settlers was in southern Utah some distance away. The Church members reacted to these problems like much of the pioneer people did against the Indians and decided to kill all but the infants. They used the local Indians to scare the pioneers and then promised them safe passage by escort. Then, at a signal, they shot all the Adults and children adopting only the infants into their families.
We have a saying: we make bad men good and good men better. I believe that the combination of past persecution and the pending arrival of the US Army (10,000+) bent on punishing the Church along with some bad characters in the pioneer group triggered the local decision to kill the pioneers. If you realize the atrocities of Missouri, and that they claimed to have been a part of it, you too might have been tempted to take revenge.
Brigham Young, in a tense negotiation, was able to calm the leaders of the Army and avoid conflict in the Salt Lake area.
One other piece I never see mentioned is that there were multiple men that said no within the community, even after all that happened. There were men like Jacob Hamblin who actively tried to stop it by riding as fast as he possibly could to Brigham Young in Salt Lake at a time when most Latter Day Saint settlements were on basically lockdown in fortified communities.
My husband and I both have family who were in the Cedar City area. Both of the patriarchs of those families attended the meeting where this was proposed, forbade their households from having anything involved, and my own some number of greats grandfather testified against John D Lee in the trial. This was far from some gung-ho unified community effort.
Yes!
The famous words of Brigham Young that speaks volumes of the fallibility of men was his afternoon sermon that started out: "This morning, you heard Brigham Young. But now Thus saith the Lord" where he completely reversed himself choosing peace instead of war.
Beautiful message, well said all around. Thanks for the insights.
Has anyone ever told you that you’re like the John Green of Latter-day Saint promoting content?
Who is the "John Green" of whom you write? Did he have a middle name? When was he born/died?
@ The guy in the video…..who the heck else do you think I’m talking to? 😂😂😂
@Keystone would you please make video on the second annointing
Thanks for the video suggestion. In the meantime, this is a great resource: mormonr.org/qnas/5y13H/second_anointing?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwz7C2BhDkARIsAA_SZKYlt1SDxHzl8DWpjXzhWQIg8ounuf1oZjrjCTo-2NtSI4sL7gQ6ShIaAkNjEALw_wcB
I am thankful for the trials of life that teach us patience and charity.
Polygamy is still practised in my country, Eswatini, by the King. His wife's are always under 18 when he takes them.
Yep. And we see billionaires here like Elon Musk have harems and many kids. People are acting as if this is taboo for elite men
What Johnny doesn't realize is that he is furthering the work of the church. People listen to him and investigate the church and discover the truth. Thanks Johnny.
Great videos! Where did you get that awesome black and white map of Utah???
Benjamin Franklin created a new alphabet that he felt was better. But it didn’t replace the original.
Saw this video pop up in my feed and felt I shouldn't watch it. Scrolled past. And now your video popped up the same day! Thanks for your thoughtful and fair response!
Do you have a video reacting to his video describing why he left?
I do not.
That's more about his personal experiences. You can't really push back against someone's personal experiences the way you can with historical interpretations that they make.
Sealed doesnt mean married though🤦♂️. Im sealed to my parents that doesnt mean I'm married to them
i think you just blew my mind.
Additional correction: In the video Johnny Harris says Joseph Smith is "... father to 14 children, husband to 40 wives".
Every source I look at says Joseph Smith had 11 children, two of whom were adopted, all with Emma.
I'm not sure where he got 14 from. There were allegations he had children with some of his plural wives but none have been proven.
The way it's phrased sort of implies that he had these children with all these women when in reality they were all with Emma. It also skips over adoption which would give a different impression.
i think he confused the number of Josephs kids, with the age of some of his wives
Fantastic video!!!
He's the kind of dude that believes his favorite politician actually is moral and good.
“It would be inappropriate to apply our current understanding on people 150 years ago.”
Yes, times were different, but everyone around them seemed to be critical of their practices at the time. No one thought Mormons were normal 150 years ago.
It wasn't because of polygamy because it wasn't introduced and practiced on a noticeable scale until well after heavy persecution was already present. They were driven from state to state before polygamy. People hated the mormons because they were anlarge political block and converted a lot of people.
@@NateDecker1982this was a fear but no when Joseph rallied the Mormon mob to destroy the printing press the expositor, that was the nail in the coffin that got him killed. Polygamy was also a concern for people as well. But you are right, people were afraid of what Mormons were capable of because of their number, what they believed and they would do ANYTHING for Joseph.
I think you missed the point, he was applying that to ages of marriage across the US
@@coolblubird the ages of marriage in the LDS community wasn’t different from other communities on the frontier. People who claim it was, clearly haven’t studied much history 🤷♀️
I totally agree with you David. He lets some presuppositions & assumptions linger out there for the listener to backfill undoubtedly erroneously. Otherwise, I thought Johnny was relatively fair in his video (with some notable exceptions).
For anyone who hasn't read it, the first section of the Light and Truth Letter talks about manipulation tactics used by critics
2:48 regarding presentism, early Mormon polygamy was absolutely not socially ok or accepted in that time. Old men marrying young girls was a huge complaint during that time against Mormonism.
It’s interesting we often refer to Joseph Smith as a boy when he was doing the work of a man at this age. We also refer to the kids his age as young men now.
Once again well said.
I find it interesting that the attack on teenage brides comes up over and over again without any historical context. Age of Consent laws weren’t firmly established in the United States until generally the 1880s. Even then, those ages were generally around the time of menarche except for Delaware which was 7. Later in the 20th Century the ages were raised. Thus, it can be assumed that not only were the marriages to teenage brides legal but also accepted by the general public.
💯 agree
Young people were married to young people most of the time. Not people old enough to be their grandparents.
Men marrying kids will never not be weird to me. I understand that there’s some serious bias and cultural conditioning for me to say that, but I just don’t think you can look at that and not be put off. It’s a stumbling stone, to be sure. And it’s certainly tripped up plenty of the people around me.
I’d like to add that most of the people who practice polygamy only had 2 wife’s. Whereas he implied everyone having 50-60.
Yet somehow you think it's okay he had 50-60 wives.
Brigham Young taught you need at least three to be exalted.
Maaaaayn you are our defender!
The Mountain meadows massacre was a tragedy.
Great video!
What does me mean he doesn't know how to read it? There is a key on the first few pages of the reprint....
He just means he wishes it was taught the writing language not that he can’t find a way to read it.
I think it’s important whether you are a believer in the church or not to look at the data without lenses on. Your first point is literally refuted by the graph that Johnny shows. I paused the video to analyze it and I’ve cross referenced it to typical data of the time. The graph shows that while the rest of the US’s marriage ages were increasing, Utah bride’s age was declining in polygamous marriages specifically.
The old argument of being able to provide more children does not hold true either. Think of those 56 wives of Brigham Young had they married monogamously if each had just 2-3 children (a small batch of kids for the time) then there would have been more children/population.
And statistically speaking it is so easy to fact check marriage ages in the mid to late 1800s. No it is not early to mid teens.
And a 13 year old bride? Whether the marriage was consummated or not she was now unable to court. Her life was essentially ruined.
Again this has nothing to do with whether you are a believing member or not. You can believe in the good parts of the church that bless your life and your family. But be sure to take off any lenses of belief to fact check and be willing to accept data over the stories.
Hey, can you do a video on the book of Abraham? It's been troubling me lately
They've already done a few videos on The Book of Abraham. They're just all on the Saints Unscripted channel
ruclips.net/video/I11WGlmkyKE/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/_bXrGaE4MpE/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/RY_zDpv2IF0/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/njsJ2XoLXLI/видео.html
Not from Saints Unscripted, but this article helped me out a ton when it came to Book of Abraham issues
theapotheosisnarrative.wordpress.com/2020/08/16/the-catalyst-theory-has-always-been-at-the-core-of-mormonism/
People are offended by polygamy when they have body counts in the 100’s. How dare a man actually take responsibility for the women he is sleeping with?
Did you do a video on part 1?
I did make a video on Part 1 back when it came out, but it's on the Saints Unscripted RUclips channel. Check it out if you like: tinyurl.com/4fyxya46
Ugggh too many “they leave the church but they can’t leave it alone” comments here. Active member here. It drives me crazy when my fellow members say/write that phrase. Guys, Mormonism is more than just a church you attend from time to time. Mormonism is a culture. Mormonism shapes lives. Mormonism creates the framework by which people live. On top of all of that, many “exmos” are still on the records of the church, still have family who are members, still live in communities with active members, etc. And members of this faith don’t leave exmos alone. We don’t. We reach out. We text. We knock on their door. We call. We try to bring them back into the fold. And then we wonder why they express themselves on social media. You know, social media, the platforms that are DESIGNED to get people to post stuff. And we get offended when they post stuff we don’t agree with. C’mon ya’ll. Get over yourselves. Who cares if people post their experience, their beliefs, and their criticisms of the church. Let them worship how, where or what they may. And leave it at that.
I wouldn’t be here without polygamy. That’s where my family line starts
Same
I guess you were both predestined to be born.
From the day they were born, I've taught my 10 living children that we have two choices when we're reproved; we can repent, or we can blame someone else. God bless Johnny that he will make the right choice.
That’s the kind of shame and guilt that keeps people from seeing the world clearly.
@@Itsjoemaddock Perhaps from the perspective of the "great and spacious building." But as the Savior taught, repentance is the healing process that brings about salvation. Blaming someone else never leads to personal salvation in God's kingdom.
@@oxfordbuckingham5841 I mean I get the sentiment… but taking that mindset would make it really easy for someone to take advantage of you. We don’t want to fixate too much on blaming others… but if we can revert to Christian rhetoric to make it where other people are basically “never” wrong… I mean, there’s a certain danger there…
@@Itsjoemaddock You're not making much sense, sorry. I don't see how anyone can take advantage of me. Actually, if you look at most human nature you will see that the choice to take responsibility for one's actions and repent if on the wrong side and, if not, to blame others is how most people respond to personal error. They have an issue with pride that is their obstacle to taking the route the Savior promoted, which is the route of contriteness, humility and repentance; Sunday School 101.
@@oxfordbuckingham5841 OK… let’s make it concrete. Let’s say that the Book of Abraham
is demonstrably a false translation, that all evidence points to it being made up by Joseph Smith. If I point out that fact, am I revealing that I have a secret sin? Is there any lie that the leaders of the church could tell that I could point out without revealing myself as a sinner by this logic?
Johnny should have an interview with David!
The creepy music of that guy... 🤣
A leader in the House of Israel has never been disqualified from serving based on the number of wives he had.
Israel is infamous we written about about for its sin and disobedience to God. Israel also had very little to do with the Bible. Furthermore, kings were not spiritual leaders.
It’s interesting what you explained about sister Fairchild divorcing Brigham Young. Do we know if she went on to have children with her second husband? Do you happen to know how many of Brigham Young’s wives ended up divorcing him?
Researching family history and realizing how often divorce was chosen made me much more comfortable with the pioneer practiceof plural marriage. I am personally very grateful to not be asked to practice or gain a testimony of plural marriage, but I feel less condemnatory of it if it was truly something that was actively chosen by our foremothers. Seeing that divorce was an option which could be pursued during the early decades of the church shows an opportunity for women to exercise autonomy. It even seems like there was very little stigma around divorce in the church during that time period?
On FamilySearch it looks like she had 2 children with another husband, and then 2 more with another husband, for a total of 4 children. And yes, divorce was surprisingly accessible in pioneer Utah.
Young wives is a problem for me, and for most people I know. I realize it was a different time but still…… I haven’t left the Church over it, but I would like some more explanation of why. Why? What was the need of that?
I wish there was one.
We'll be getting more in-depth into that data in an upcoming episode. I included lots of resources in the RUclips description of this video that might be helpful in the meantime, though!
You need to try and get Cliffe Knechtle on the show I think it would be a good debate.
I love how you mentioned what it means to be "the chosen people of the Lord." That phrase has been misunderstood by so many people!
What you said is exactly right about the church, just like it was about the Israelites. They were chosen to be a holy priesthood to serve the rest of the world. Much the same way that the Levites served all Israel.
Yes, there are Jews that take it to mean they're better than anyone else, and there are members of the church that think that they are better than anyone else. Those people are wrong!
We are all entitled to our opinions, however it sad to see that those who leave the Church are so hostile to us. I hope that hearts will be softened.👍🇦🇺🙏
He’s sharing his opinion. And it is an opinion that is against the church’s narrative. I don’t think his intention is being hostile.
Hostile and critical are two different things.
Questioning members and those who leave the church are upset because they are maligned and demonized by their TBM family for daring to do so. President Nelson has been stoking the fire of dissention among those with his rhetoric to "never take counsel from those who do not believe", and those that leave are "lazy learners and lax disciples". How is that kind and loving?
Why did no one address that Brigham did nothing to punish those who murdered? Also he encouraged cattle raiding and so is responsible for these actions also.
07:34 It doesn’t matter if Young didn’t approve the massacre. This is a militia FORMED by the Mormon Church. I understand he wants to “not justify it”, but still wants to shift the blame.
And the protestants massacred Mormons. What's your point. All is fair in love and war.
@@fightingfortruth9806 Those migrants hadn’t done anything to Mormons nor declared war. This was a violent attack orchestrated by the some in the Mormon leadership. Whatever other people had done previously to them has no bearing in this.
It was our militia but the killing was not approved by the church so it’s on the people in the militia not the church
@@nathanw681 a militia created by the Church however.
so if an American shoots a guy even if the president tells him not to, it's the presidents fault?
Great video