What this Catholic apologist isn’t telling you about the plates
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
- Catholic apologist Trent Horn recently published a video aimed at discrediting the Book of Mormon by claiming that our 531 pages of the Book of Mormon would not have been able to fit in an ancient language on the golden plates. In this episode, David Snell takes a closer look at these claims, and highlights some of the research that Trent didn’t address in his video.
- “The Book of Mormon Plates,” by Janne M. Sjodahl: tinyurl.com/mw...
- “Epigraphic Considerations on Janne Sjodahl's Experiment with Nephite Writing,” by John Gee (Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, vol. 10, no. 1, article 7): tinyurl.com/2p...
- “Comparing the gold plates to known ancient artifacts,” by Neal Rappleye (FAIR): tinyurl.com/5a...
- “What did the golden plates look like?” Kirk B. Henrichsen, New Era Magazine (July, 2007): tinyurl.com/2j...
- “Reformed Egyptian,” by William J. Hamblin (2007), Review of Books on the Book of Mormon 1989-2011: Vol. 19 : No. 1 , Article 7: tinyurl.com/3m...
- “Is the Book of Mormon Like Other Ancient Metal Documents?” via Scripture Central: tinyurl.com/4p... / See also: tinyurl.com/2k...
- “How Big A Book? Estimating the Total Surface Area of the Book of Mormon Plates,” by Bruce E. Dale (Interpreter Journal): tinyurl.com/5z... (Note that Dale concludes there were probably about 40 plates [but not a maximum of 40, as Horn claims]).
Notes:
- The ¾ scale model of the plates are 4.25 inches wide, 6 inches long, and 4.25 inches tall. The full scale model is 6 inches wide, 8 inches long, and 6 inches tall. In Trent’s debate with Latter-day Saint Jacob Hansen, he does mention that the plates are a ¾ model, but he does not mention it in this follow-up reel.
- More precisely, Sjodahl found that the Book of Mormon could be written in Hebrew on 40.428 pages, or about 21 plates (engraved on the front and back). But if you multiply 40.428 pages by 14 pages, you get 565.992 pages - much more than our current standard edition of the Book of Mormon. But Sjodahl's math is based on the American edition (Nauvoo, 1842), which had 566 pages, as opposed to our 531 pages.
- In composing his letter to John Wentworth (at least in this section describing the plates), Joseph may have used language from Orson Pratt’s description of these same events (the coming forth of the Book of Mormon) from his 1840 work, “A[n] Interesting Account of Several Remarkable Visions.”
- Some sources say two-thirds of the record were sealed. As noted, on one occasion David Whitmer said only half the record was sealed. In George Q. Cannon’s “The Life of Joseph Smith, the Prophet,” he writes that “A part of the volume, about one-third, was sealed.” Source: tinyurl.com/5n...
- Interestingly, if there were 460 characters per plate (this estimate is based on the full-scale Etsy model, so take it with a grain of salt), and if there were 40 plates, then each symbol would represent only about 14 words (reaching our total of 270,000 words). David Whitmer reported in 1887 that during the translation, “One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English.” Royal Skousen determined that Joseph was likely dictating about 20 words at a time to Oliver Cowdery.
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I have been what you would call “investigating” the LDS church for over a year. In addition to meeting with Missionaries, I have been reading commentary and watching videos online. You are by far the most thoughtful and respectful advocate for the faith that I have encountered. There are other LDS channels that are mocking and disrespectful of others, but you are not. You have done more to increase my appreciation of the church than anyone else online. Thanks for your informative and uplifting content.
The best thing you could do is prioritize reading the Book of Mormon before going down the rabbit hole of online content. The Holy Spirit is the source of all truth so I recommend going to the source and ask God if the BOM is a truthful testament of Jesus Christ’s divinity.
@@CryptoCPAI second this. A personal connection with the divine through scripture, prayer and quiet contemplation has blessed me immensely in my life as a foundation.
That said, I wouldn’t say there’s anything necessarily wrong with engaging these topics online, as there are many issues of importance scantly covered by official resources.
It kind of depends on your faith paradigm. Within the Church you will find people who gravitate toward orthodoxy and those who lean toward pragmatism-both have their strengths and weaknesses.
@@Sotelurian
Wishing you a wonderful journey.
My husband was an evangelical rabid anti-“Mormon” and taught all the lies and slander about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints over the pulpit at his church. He believed those lies to his core.
He ended up reading The Book of Mormon to prove it wrong to some young adults he respected and wanted to save from their “Mormon” cult.
He had a very special experience and ended up tracking down the missionaries and was baptized a few weeks later.
I love how he talks about how the Book of Mormon witnesses of Christ so powerfully, and brings its readers closer to Christ. That it fills the humble seeker of truth with hope in Christ promises and expands his soul with light and joy.(Fruits of the Spirit.)
Many will mock it, but millions and millions of people love this sacred Testament of Christ.
Hope you feel Christ love for you as you read from its pages.
☀️❤️
The LDS Church is a human based institution with a Hierarchy of Control. You will get baptized; honeymoon period, then assigned various tasks or duties under a "Calling". The Calling is free labor, and tithing is free money to the Church. Kind hearted people are being overworked from a young age into old age; all for free or your own personal expense, and if you question anything with a higher authority, then you just don't have enough faith. The LDS Church is run by human beings and is fallible as human beings are. Just my opinion.
Good to investigate anything and be informed. Take a deep look into how Mormonism defines their god and their Jesus versus Christianity. They’ll use some of the same terms, but with wholly different meanings. Is their god eternal as The Creator or just an intelligence matter who became a sinful man, later exalted to become a god, but had a god who had a god who had a god and so forth? Is their Jesus the same Jesus the Bible says was with God in the beginning, is God, and through whom all things were created both seen and unseen? Good to reread the book of John in the New Testament with study notes if helpful. Plenty of other spears to throw at Mormonism, but how they characterize God is a big one. Worrying about Book of Mormon anachronisms and verified false translations of Egyptian for the Book of Abraham are interesting, but it really comes down to who they worship. A false god.
Trent Horn is hurting his credibility when he puts out content like this.
No he isn't. He knows the BoM is a farce
Yes he is. Even if he believes it is a farce, his approach is amateur
Which is a shame because most of his Catholic-centric content is extremely well informed and strong.
Very true, beating down an already established fact about the lies of Mormonism isn’t fair lol.
Just imagine how much space would be saved if the phrase “and it came to pass” was represented by a single symbol!
I think there's plenty to suggest (not prove) it was. Writing on metal plates is hard, and you'd be pretty careful with what you recorded and pretty frugal with your word count. Where "and it came to pass" doesn't add anything substantive to most passages, it would stand to reason that the phrase repeated so many times wouldn't have taken as much effort to record as doing so in English would. To add to that, the fact that it is repeated verbatim rather than having variation (in all the instances I can remember) seems unlikely unless the phrase was either its own character, or the phrase has some deeper significance than just being a carrier phrase.
@@jeffreyhawkins1027it might have been something like "then" or "afterward".
@@mrbrian87 It’s one word in Spanish. I believe it’s one word in Hebrew. I would guess it could be a small modifier in a character-based language.
@@natedawg2020 Hebrew is an amazingly concise language in my limited experience
Mark Twain said if you removed the words "it came to pass" the BOM would have been a pamphlet.
This was the one question I wasn't sure about from the debate. You're a legend David.
"No such thing as writing on plates." (oh whoops) "Someone move that goalpost - and don't worry about accuracy!"
Pretty much how it goes every time.
He knows it’s an obviously flawed argument. He’s not trying to convince a few million Latter-day Saints to abandon a false belief. He’s trying to convince a billion Catholics to stay Catholic by tribalistic, othering appeal.
We need to be cautious within our own apologetics that we don’t do the same.
He’s not “trying to convince a billion Catholics to stay Catholic by tribalistic”
He’s disproving the false lds belief.
Your first paragraph is precisely what JS did
@@bigtobacco1098 at what stage of his leadership?
@@aBrewster29 doesn't matter... the church is anti Christian
@@Compulsive-Elk7103Using lies against LDS you think is convincing?
I was shocked to see a debater as good as Trent be informed so little regarding the scholarship that challenged or outright refuted the criticisms he was peddling against the Church.
Refuted is not the word I'd have used. Excuses is more like it.
Yeah. It was kinda disappointing that he went to some very outdated, and frankly ignorant and insulting arguments that I would have thought would be beneath him. Makes me think that the majority of criticisms are just built on willful ignorance rather than substance…
David, you were born to do this work. Thank you for all the thought and effort you put into these amazing videos. And to everyone who also plays a part in their production.
The problem with following the spirit of criticism and slander is it often doesn’t leave room for true study and understanding.
Joseph Smith made his purpose in life to slander the true church that Jesus founded.
@@billthecat22 - That is a false assumption. Joseph Smith spent the vast majority of his time communicating the positive things that he believed were revealed to him from divine sources, rather than spending time criticizing or slandering other religions. He was actually quite friendly to other religions, as long as their preachers and pastors weren't actively persecuting and harassing him and other church members. From the history I've studied of that time period, the vast majority of the negative interactions between the Latter-day Saints and other religious believers was with various Protestant sects in the areas they settled, rather than with Catholics. He believed that there was both true and false teachings in other religions, but to my knowledge that is true for all religious believers, or else they wouldn't be members of their own religion. Latter-day Saints are encouraged not to waste time putting down other religions, but to see the look for the good in them. I think that has been true in the past as well.
“The spirit of criticism and slander” you people have a persecution complex.
@@ToqTheWise, it’s just an observation. In politics and religion those who choose to attack tend to come to the most illogical explanations about the subject.
@@billthecat22 Jesus visited Joseph smith (vs the other religions)! Joseph flask was ready to be filled with "new wine" (vs the others who already had a preconceived "narrative" passed down by traditions all the way back to the nicea council and universal church).
🤔
It was fascinating that he chose this external argument, rather than simply engaging the text itself.
“Internal evidence is almost the only type ever used in testing questioned documents; it is rarely necessary to go any further than the document itself to find enough clues to condemn it, and if the text is a long one, and an historical document in the bargain, the absolute certainty of inner contradictions is enough to assure adequate testing.” -Hugh Nibley
Yes well said! (why not focus no th words of the book of mormon!)
Text book rebuttal David, especially the promoting Catholicism would be a better use of time. Catholics becoming more like evangelicals? Sad
Yep. I've always wondered why a lot of RUclips Evangelical Pastors like Mike Winger or Jeff Durbin or James White spend so much time trying to dunk on other people's Faiths. I feel like their time would be better spent, you know, preaching Jesus and the scriptures. 🤷♂
Catholicism has by and large not considered us a threat. That changed with the Temple in Rome. Latin America continues to be one of the highest baptizing regions with many (most?) converts coming from Catholicism. Now, in a sense, we're playing with the big boys. Evangelical Christianity remains powerful in the USA and Pentacostals are popular in Korea, but in Europe, Africa and Latin America the Catholic Church still prevails, and we're making a dent. No doubt Trent recognizes this, and has decided to take us more seriously, especially after his poor performance during the Hanson v Trent debate. True, his time would be better spent on supporting Catholicism, but when there are droves of Catholics that are at least becoming Latter-Day Saints for while (retention remains an issue, my brother-in-law laments how people he Baptized in the Dominican Republic would go and still get their child baptized in the Catholic Church because of tradition), this presents a quaundry. They're bracing, even if in a very small way, which is encouraging.
At least they are admitting people used to write on metal.
At least...
What examples do you have of ancient writings on metals? Are there any examples of codex books or prose?
@@PrairieChristianOutreach He literally showed it in the video the metal plates of Darius 4:18 and there are other examples as well if you take the time to look them up
But not in this continent.
@@cameronreed1411Thank you. I was inquiring if any other examples exist. I know of the copper scroll of Qumran and a number of lead, silver, or gold strips with writing.
However, none of these are codex or prose or history. So, there is nothing like that described by JS.
The only reason Trent Horn is on the radar of church members is because of Jacob Hansen's debate, you should point people to it.
Not true. At least for me, I knew of Trent and liked his videos long before the debate with Jacob. But it’s true. He best serves when he focuses on expounding his faith, rather than trying to debunk the faith of others. Something for all of us to learn from I think.
If the BoM had only 40 plates with 230 characters on each side, then each character is worth 14 English words. If the BoM were 80 plates, then each character is worth 7 English words. That’s extremely practical. Trent sucks at math.
He didn’t go to divinity school for math that’s for sure
Can you prove that was the case? This seems to stem from Joseph’s misunderstanding (which was common at the time) that a single hieroglyphic could represent many words, even full sentences. Since that time, however, hieroglyphics have been deciphered, and we have found that symbols don’t represent entire lines of text but single words, sounds, and concepts. While we’re at it, reformed Egyptian does not exist outside of the BoM. No evidence in support of it has ever been found in Egypt, Israel, or the Americas. What, then, are we to conclude about Joseph and his translation?
@@AtticusLaineBlos I’m not sure your question makes sense. There are modern character languages that have more than a 1:1 character to English word ratio. For example, Mandarin averages about one character per 1.5 to 2 English words, and depending on the word or phrase it may be more or less. The Old Testament in Hebrew has a little less than 50% of the word count as the Old Testament in English.
According to the internal logic of the Book of Mormon, “reformed Egyptian” was more space-efficient than Hebrew and the authors intentionally tried to conserve as much space on the Gold Plates as possible. The narrator Mormon also states “none other people knoweth our language.” If an archaeologist discovered “reformed Egyptian,” then you could argue Mormon was wrong or lying. Even if “reformed Egyptian” was discovered it wouldn’t really be convincing evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon because we don’t have any reliable transcriptions of the Book of Mormon source text to compare. It is unclear whether Nephi just invented his own language and called it reformed Egyptian, which is plausible since he would have been the founder of a new civilization.
Nobody except God can “prove” the truthfulness of any religion. There is significant academic evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon, but obviously there are critics. Maybe you can make an argument that the Book of Mormon is “intentionally disprovable,” but it’s a circular argument either way because we believe it should require faith in order to discover whether the Book of Mormon is true. If there were provable evidence, we wouldn’t bother telling people to pray about it.
Come on Trent. It sounds like he’s not even trying to come up with strong arguments.
I’m convinced he does a 2 minute google search, and these are what he comes up with.
Great debater. He seemed absurdly underprepared for this debate though.
Keep us posted when this "good faith" Catholic apologizes for his dishonest shoddy argument.
I hope someone has linked this response on his video comments. You are so good at laying things out, especially for people too busy in life to do so on their own.
Delivered on your promise to make this video and it did not disappoint! The detail and quality of your videos are incredible!
Keystone never misses!
Sad day for Trent. Classic case of seeing what he only wanted to see.
Was not expecting math in one of your RUclips videos today, but was not disappointed with the results!
@@andrewmulert How about this math then: There are an estimated 60,000 organized religions in the world. That means AT LEAST 59,999 organized religions are false. In order for you to believe your chances of choosing the correct religion are 1 in 60,000, you would have to arrogantly claim the religion to which you belong is the one true religion. Talk about privilege!
Further, only 17 million people out of the 8.2 billion people currently living on the planet belong to said religion (LDS). That 17 million includes an unknown number of inactive folks, people who left the church long ago, and their counted-children. If you care to do THAT math, it works out to well under 1% of the world’s population.
And that’s just people who are currently living. It does not include the uncountable billions who’s time is passed. Now try to calculate how many baptisms for the dead would have to be done each day in order for all who have ever lived to be included over the next, say, 10 years (since the second coming is purported to be sooner than that). I hope you have a very powerful calculator with a big screen.
Edited for typos
Thank you for pointing this out. It was bugging me big time
Snell + this editing = 🔥
Your detailed analysis and research is absolutely astounding. Trent is a juggernaut in apologetics. I’m so grateful to Latter-day Saints like you who are smart enough and passionate enough to defend the nitty gritty details that people like Trent end up digging into in order to form their arguments against the validity of the BoM / the Church in general.
I never had a good understanding of the Plausibility of the characters fitting on the plates.
Thanks for the good information!
Jerry Grover also addresses this question in detail in his translation of the Caractors document (chapter 16) and his work on Ziff and the Gold Plates (chapter 11), both available for free in PDF on his website.
I was very disappointed by Trent's debate tactics.
And this is without even mentioning the translation of the Caraters Document by Jerry Grover. Which showed that vast amounts of information were contained in a few lines.
I really expected David to end this episode with "But that's just a theory... *A SCRIPTURE THEORY!* Keep Praying!
He’s scrambling to try to save face after his terrible debacle of a debate with Jacob and is only digging the hole deeper showing his completely dishonesty.
"Fine engraving on both sides" David Whitmer Trump haha😂
5:45
Spot on as always! Although to be fair to Trent, I believe in his debate with Jacob Hansen that was referenced he mentioned his model was 1/2 or 2/3 the size of the actual plates. Maybe he left that part out of his short due to time constraints as it isn't crucial to his argument.
Yes to his credit he did mention it in the debate video. I think I note that in the RUclips description of this video.
I feel like Trent is suddenly getting desperate to prove his point after not doing so well during his debate against Jacob Hansen.
he's on a cope tour :(
Trent even goes after a Franciscan Friar who does RUclips videos, so hes not even promoting Catholism but his own views and claiming them as Catholic.
To carry on with your math, if the BoM were only 40 plates and each page had 230 characters on each side, then each character would be worth 14 English words. I think that’s probably realistic.
Hahahhaha!!!Hahaha ha!!!! 14 words.... Do you hear yourself?
@@billthecat22 @@billthecat22
@@billthecat22 Ultimately, 230 characters per page is unrealistically low for the what the Book of Mormon claims. That’s roughly 15 rows of 15 characters which is only about two characters per linear inch. For authors who are desperate for space, three characters per linear inch would still be conservative. If the plates are 6”x8” that is about 432 characters per page (18 x 24 = 432). A more realistic page thickness for golds alloy pages would have been about 0.5mm. If the BoM was two inches thick, then it would have been about 100 gold pages (200 front and back).
270,000 / (432 x 200) = 3.125
This would mean each character could have averaged about 3 English words.
@@billthecat22 The Old Testament is already less than half as many words in Hebrew as compared to English, and the Book of Mormon claims they would have written in Hebrew if they had space. Obviously “reformed Egyptian” would have been much more concise.
@@billthecat22 The Book of Mormon uses a high number of repeated phrases. 2.5% of the Book of Mormon word count is the phrase “and it came to pass.” That is five words that can easily be written as a simple modifier on one character. Other commonly used phrases such as “the word of the Lord” could also be similarly condensed as a modifier. You could use shorthand to write a character within a character to show how one character symbol might interact with another. You can also easily simplify or omit many conjunctions, prepositions, and articles as simple modifiers to a character also. Even if the Book of Mormon did somehow require 14 English words per character, it could be possible if phrases were condensed into character modifiers. It is much more likely each character could have represented around three English words if you correctly factor in realistic measurements of the plate sizes.
For a Book that was only transmitted from prophet to prophet, you could even assume the whole book was written in a severe shorthand which required revelation to read. For an ancient record which was reported to have been translated by the power of God, it is ridiculous to only suspend your disbelief to a certain number of characters per English words per page.
Excellent explanation. But the one thing that matters to me is the incredibly powerful spiritual witness i can and have repeatedly received as i read and try to apply the teachings of the book of Mormon.
Another aspect of this issue is Jonathan Neville's argument that there were two sets of plates - the abridged partially sealed plates with Mormon and Moroni's record and another set with Nephi's. This comports with the historical accounts and explains why witnesses varied somewhat in their descriptions. It also means that there were more plates and space to contain the Book of Mormon than previously assumed in the the information David gives in this video.
fantastic take David
Horn should be embarrassed and then ask to be baptized into the restored Church of Christ.
You're not a restoration. Jesus and His Church never failed.
@@billthecat22 so the scriptures are wrong?
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonians 2
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3
When I first saw Trent’s reel, dismissed it because those plate were way too small. The model I saw in seminary were much bigger.
You are a wonderful blessing! ❤️☀️
The Book of Mormon is true and came from God. This is my testimony as the Holy Spirit witnessed it to me 😊
Trent Trent Trent 🤦♂️ his argument is rent
Love how professional david is, look forward to more content in th future! 👍
David is doing investigative research in this one
Fantastic video! I had this very question a few months ago, glad to see someone putting good info out there about it!
LOL--- He got the dimensions totally wrong!!!! Dimensions:
About 6-7 inches wide and 7-8 inches long
About 4-6 inches thick in total
Thank you and your team for these incredibly informative videos on the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, as these are the videos I show my non-member friends and family. I really appreciate how respectful you come across so it's easy to recommend to my friends who are of different faiths and I know you won't put them down.
Arohanui from New Zealand.
Ultimately, 230 characters per page is unrealistically low for the what the Book of Mormon claims. That’s roughly 15 rows of 15 characters which is only about two characters per linear inch. For authors who are desperate for space, three characters per linear inch would still be conservative. If the plates are 6”x8” that is about 432 characters per page (18 x 24 = 432). A more realistic page thickness for gold alloy pages would have been about 0.5mm. If the BoM was two inches thick, then it would have been about 100 gold pages (200 front and back).
270,000 / (432 x 200) = 3.125
This would mean each character could have averaged about 3 English words.
how can we justify any of this when none of the plates were ever seen outside of people 'spiritual eyes'
When was the last time a Latter-Day Saint started bagging on the claims of the Catholics on the internet just to tear down their faith?
David, you continue to impress. Thank you!
Doesn't the church history museum have a replica? Why didn't he just refer to that?
Mormon must have had some amazing college professors to learn a written language so complex it can contain that much meaning in each character. I wonder if they're the same ones who trained him in precision engraving too.
A single symbol can represent an entire story, like the Cross represents the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yet unless someone knew which symbols were used for what stories they couldn't be read, a language altered so that nobody knows it.
Sick 42 joke
🤔 Our critics are most of the time ignorant of the very basics of scholarship, for if they were not, I surmise they would themselves be Mormons. Catholic scholars should spend their time trying to figure out how to defend the near-indefensible doctrines like the trinity, infant baptism (and baptism by sprinkling), transubstantiation, Marian apparitions, and the recitation of the rosary, none of which appear in the Bible.
The New Testament tells us that before the man of sin, the Antichrist, makes his appearance, an age of apostasy will occur. Thus, the Catholic apologists would better spend their time boning up on the above rather than trying to spend their time trying to figure how many angels will fit on the head of a stylus.
Trent is defending a Catholicism that does not exist. Therefore, Trent has one of many paths leading to Christ. LDS is definitely another path, according to his pope. So, for Trent to say that only Catholics are saved, is very anachronistic for his faith tradition. Weird that he cannot even defend his church as it exists today rather attacks others whose leaders DO follow Christ.
We also understand that Moroni abridged the original plates. also I think that Reformed Egyptian might even been a form of shorthand.
What evidence do you have that Reformed Egyptian existed? What evidence do you have that it was short hand?
@@PrairieChristianOutreachThe witnesses say that they saw it, the book had to be written in A language. And if you watch the video we are commenting on the conclusion would be that reformed Egyptian is an evolved form of Old World languages, quite likely shorter and more efficient by common sense.
@@WestLight-l3u My concern is this is all conjecture. There is no example of such a language. This makes any comments regarding word count, size of documents, and information transfer meaningless. No one has ever seen Reformed Egyptian, or if someone did see it they did not give any surviving examples of it. You must understand that is a difficult situation for those on the outside looking in to the LDS faith.
@@PrairieChristianOutreach I understand that it is hard to find evidence for the Book of Mormon in that way, but this is kind of God’s plan. Moroni took the plates away for this specific reason. If you want to know if the Book is true, I would recommend you read it and then ask God about its validity. I would however argue that there is physical evidence of the Book’s validity. 🙏
@@PrairieChristianOutreach It's not unheard of to have unique examples of ancient practices. The Nephites' whole culture evolved separately from the people they descended from, and there's no reason why their spoken and written languages would have remained the same over time. They were a record-keeping people, and that would lend to written language being preserved in some degree, but even assuming that they preserved it perfectly, there's no reason to assume that Mormon would use an existing form of writing when preparing to engrave a lengthy record on metal plates. It's reasonable to assume that he would adapt an existing form of writing so as to make it more space efficient and easier to engrave. That being said, it could have been essentially the same as an existing form of writing. Most people assume that "Egyptian" refers to hieroglyphics, but what Moroni called "reformed Egyptian" could have simply been a variety of hieratic or demotic writing. Whatever it was, we have no reason at all to believe that it would be referred to by any name that we use in modern times.
There is no room at all to complain about "reformed Egyptian".
Makes me think Trent was simply being dishonest
Sorry Trent, wildly wrong.
There was, in fact, a form of reformed Egyptian contemporary with Lehi. Look into meroitic or demotic text. It bears what I think is some remarkable resemblance to the characters on the Anton manuscript. Hugh Nibley described it as like “shorthand shorthand” and said he was glad the angel took the plates back with him because, if we had the actual plates, we would still be arguing about the translation. But remember, the plates were translated (more like dictated) by the gift and power of God. Any human effort at explaining the process will fall short. See Royal Skousen’s work on the subject. It’s absolutely and stunningly miraculous, I believe.
Most of the Semitic languages were adapted from Egyptian.
My goodness. Trent is just burring himself with this one... What the heck!
The Book of Mormon uses a high number of repeated phrases. 2.5% of the Book of Mormon word count is the phrase “and it came to pass.” That is five words that can easily be written as a simple modifier on one character. Other commonly used phrases such as “the word of the Lord” could also be similarly condensed as a modifier. You could use shorthand to write a character within a character to show how one character symbol might interact with another. You can also easily simplify or omit many conjunctions, prepositions, and articles as simple modifiers to a character also. Even if the Book of Mormon did somehow require 14 English words per character, it could be possible if phrases were condescended into character modifiers. It is much more likely each character could have represented around three English words if you correctly factor in realistic measurements of the plate sizes.
For a Book that was only transmitted from prophet to prophet, you could even assume the whole book was written in a severe shorthand which required revelation to read. For an ancient record which was reported to have been translated by the power of God, it is ridiculous to only suspend your disbelief to a certain number of characters per English words per page.
You could add phrases like The people of ___ and The words of ___. A simple mark added to a glyph or a compound glyph, like those common in Mayan writing.
Well done.
My goat!
The Book of Mormon has 268,000 words. If there are 60 pages (30 plates) that would mean that around 4400 words per page would have to exist and carved on metal (not ink and paper and the example in the video showed). Im skeptical.
It's too bad that these plates were supposedly taken away by the angel Moroni. Fortunately this did not happen with all the remnants of our Greek and Hebrew manuscripts.
That's because the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts are real but the gold plates are fictional
So where are your original versions? And why do all your Greek and Hebrew and Latin manuscripts contradict each other in content and character? If only you had a metal edition so it couldn't be altered, and if only that metal version of scriptures was taken somewhere man couldn't destroy it. Maybe there was, and Jesus Christ will bring it with him when he returns, to destroy all the corrupted versions.
You're a genius Dav.❤
Yes, I thought his model of the plates was miniature. Not very honest.
Also interesting how he brought up the plates of Darius - gold plates found in a stone box - the notion of which was the subject of ridicule in the time of Joseph Smith. Not anymore, right, Trent?
The nemenhah records. Book. Second complete edition. 100BC to 1700AD. Released by the native Americans and not our church. It's worth the read. I had a spiritual experience before, during, and after reading them.
Well done.
Read the Book of Mormon and pray if it's true!
What if I did that and God told me that it’s a false gospel?
Why don't we just examine the plates?
I was misfortunate enough to see when he posted.
All I could do was groan.
Stupid leading the dumb.
You mean spiritually blind leading the spiritually blind.
Unfortunately, I have to acknowledge that you are right.
Sorry to disappoint.
You’re so good man. I also believe the witnesses!
I dont see what this video disproves? It's just debunking trents assumptions by using your own assumptions. That's why, at the end, you just say you can't prove anything.
you should comment on the whole video that this clip is from
Thanks for all your videos! There is a Bible archaeology channel I like called Expedition Bible, and he has an episode on Joseph Smith. Maybe you could address that in a video?
Hey David, i know this might sound foolish but can you react to the South Park episode that talks about us? That would be actually very interesting to watch. 😅
Nice try Trent!
@Keystone I have a really important question. (Or anyone who cares to answer) I’m really confused about the “council of gods” is that a real belief? Is there any evidence of it in the Bible? No disrespect, just questioning religion.
Roasted.
I never fully understood why folks from other religions spend so much time and energy discrediting the LDS church. Are they insecure? What do they care? Having said that, this guy brings up some valid red flags with the plates.
Regardless how many “fine engravings” were on the plates in “reformed Egyptian,” each character would have to represent full sentences at minimum. The claim that the plates were bigger than portrayed in this guys video are equally problematic, since JS emphatically claimed the plates were made of dense, heavy gold (not tumbaga as recent apologists now try to claim).
The bigger the plates, the more fantastic the story of Joseph (who had a bad leg) outrunning and fighting off three separate attackers the night he retrieved the plates, all while holding the plates in one arm. The same plates that, if Joseph’s description is accurate, would have to weight around 300 lbs. even the plates under the cloth that witnesses described as having “heft” are estimated to be over 80 lbs (which is consistent with the scrap tin theory). Debating the accuracy of this Catholic’s claims about the plates is akin to debating the properties of Thor’s hammer.
The plates had the appearance of gold. I doubt that Joseph went to far as to perform any kind of test on them to verify whether or not they were pure gold or not. His brother called them a mixture of gold and copper -- in other words, an alloy. The witness reports that the plates weighed (regardless of the dimensions) between 40-60 lbs is also indicative of an alloy (yes, like ancient mesoamerican tumbaga). I'm not aware of any sources indicating that the plates were 80 lbs. I would love to see your source for that.
Joseph had a slight limp from his childhood surgery, but was considered very athletic and strong. I haven't seen any reports that his leg was much of a hinderance to him. Regarding his run from Cumorah to his home with the plates -- we don't know how much of that 3-mile journey was a walk/jog/or a sprint. We don't know where along that path he was attacked, and we don't know what the physical capabilities of his attackers were. There are enough unknowns at play here that I don't see a problem with the plausibility of Joseph's story.
@@keystonelds First, you are correct, ~60 lbs is what I meant. Second, Joseph may have been strong as an ox, but his leg injury from a crude early 19th century surgery was indeed purported to be a significant handicap. He was very limited in his physical abilities, such as walking fast or running.
As for the other points, a significant amount of mental gymnastics are required to view the stories as plausible. I don’t see it as particularly plausible, for example, that facts, evidence, and details are countered with, “we don’t know how that worked.” I could fabricate any story I want, and when asked about details, say, “I’m not sure how that worked, but it did.” Giving apologists the benefit of the doubt, let’s say the plates WERE made of some lighter alloy and only weighted ~60 lbs. Go do an experiment. Find a cement-filled cinder block that weighs 60 lbs. Place a restrictive brace on one leg to simulate limited use of that limb and carry the block through three miles of woods. Place a 180 lb heavy bag/training dummy at evenly spaced intervals along the route and, holding the 60 lb block I’m one arm, hit the dummy with the other hard enough to move it across the ground. On top of all this, pay someone to pinch you a few times and butt-stroke you with a rifle while you are hitting the dummy. When you get to the end of the three miles with the block, please let me know if you still feel the same about Joe’s story.
@@woodystube1000You are forgetting that Joseph Smith Jr. was the stick pull champion, which uses the legs and back specifically, so your assumption that his movements were hindered by his injury are grossly exaggerated.
@@woodystube1000 Lucy never stated that Joseph Smith “outran” men that tried to ambush him. She says he “knocked them down and then ran at the top of his speed.” Then when a half mile later, he knocked down the second guy, and ran *again.* She also said Joseph dislocated his thumb knocking down the third guy. One of the guys traveled sixty miles to ambush Joseph, so he probably was not at his peak.
Joseph Smith farmed by hand. This isn’t even that impressive of a story. It’s bizarre this is where you suspend disbelief. God can help Joseph Smith read ancient languages, but not help him beat up three dudes? This is not a logical stumbling block.
@@natedawg2020 You misunderstand (being generous here). It is ALL fanciful, implausible and unlikely. Each and every hole-filled story is another red flag. Do you really expect to shame me into believing the story of JS running 3 miles with 60 lbs of metal while knocking down 3 separate attackers along the way is somehow realistic because he was a farmer? Believe what you want, but the story is a tall tale, to say the least. It reminds me of a George Gastanza story.
The more I hear of Trent Horn
The less I begin to believe he actually is a truth seeker.
This is great!!
Joseph didn’t even use the plates so why do they matter?
Of course he used the plates, in D and C 9 Oliver Cowdrey's failed attempt to translate is described, and it requires him to have plates to "study it out in his mind and ask if it is correct." What could not have been used to translate is a stone in a hat giving an exact translation, or there would be no reason to ask God if the translation was correct.
You're doing God's work.
Excelente video !
That model is way too small
Proverbs 27:5 and Proverbs 18:17 had a baby
Good job
How about we go with the spiritual eye and vacate this entire theologically irrelevant line of thinking from the church.
It is such a fruitless distraction no person seeking Christ would ever care to hear about.
Except every witness, the official 11 and the unofficial shown the plates independent of Joseph Smith Jr., all describe physical plates seen with mortal eyes or felt with physical hands.
@@bartonbagnes4605 that's fine, it's completely theologically and spiritually irrelevant so why do we keep talking about it?
Why are we so obsessed with the materialism of these plates and the absolutely most superficial and irrelevant parts of our doctrine.
@@RLDRemembrance Because if you show that the plates actually exist, and that Joseph Smith Jr. didn't have the knowledge or means to fake them, that forces an examination of their content, whether it is from God or not.
@@bartonbagnes4605No, the theological truth stand as self evident and it's become the saints themselves obsessed with plates who are the only ones not seeing it.
There is no "Alpha and Omega" without the premordial.
That fact, lost as we obsess with plates at the expense of spiritual merit.
Quantum entanglements & temple Sealings, lost because "who was polygamist where and how?"
The nature of God and the Free Will Tenant, vacated because "where were the Lemurians situated?"
Temporal exaltation and alchemy, lost because "The Family Proclamation".
We've reduced our theology to a mockery disaster from the inside and on our own accord.
Who funds this channel/Saints Unscripted?
It's voluntary, like the leaders of this Church. This isn't Mormon Stories Podcast, whose top person pockets half a million to break up families with his non-profit channel.
Interesting good one
"How the book of Mormon came to Pass" is important reading for anyone investigating Mormonism. The names Mormon and Nephi were first known to history in the writings of Jesuits who fabricated their sources. The book discusses multiple other elements for these Jesuits' writing that appear in the OM. The book is also the first to examine a previously unknown work of Solomon Spaulding, much strengthening the already strong evidence parts of the BOM are adaptations of his writings.
Solomon Spaulding theory is long debunked. Doesn’t hold any water
The Spaulding theory has largely been abandoned by critics, as Spaulding's unpublished manuscript was discovered in 1885 and had nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. It is called "Manuscript Found." You can read it online for free.
Those Jesuit sources were unavailable to Joseph Smith Jr. and are only called forgeries by those who don't like what they say. The Testament of Naphtali was said to be a first century Hebrew forgery, until it was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. They called it a forgery because it mentioned Christian ideas that weren't supposed to exist before Jesus Christ.
Martinez Elizabeth Harris Steven Miller Laura
What say ye @TheCounselofTrent?
Wow🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Trent is correct and David is wrong. David's logic is greatly flawed at best. For example, in David's display it also says the plates were slightly thinner than tin which would mean a tin version would allow a 260% increase in surface area at equal plate thickness. To understand that in common sense 40 plates with 2/3 sealed gives 13 plates which were claimed to be translated. That is 1,248 sq.in. or simply less than 7 pages of today's standard 8.5 x 11 notebook paper. And there are tons of other problems as gold is far too soft for the job. 6 inch by 8 inch solid gold piece would be 3/8" tall at 40 pounds. Compare 3/8" to the models, you see the models are off a ridiculous amount. Thus you get 0.009 (9 thousands per plate) such gold could not be near the thickness of tin. And the assumption that an 80 to one conversion rate of English to Ancient Egypt is 100% speculation with no legitimate bases. btw- How and why Hebrews in North American used
Do better research. For starters it never says gold plates, it says golden plates, Mayan Gold called Tumbaga is definitely hard enough. Plus the plates were described as making a metallic rustling sound when moved, meaning the plates were quite thin, maybe not tin foil thin, but pretty close. So that's way more than 13 pages.
@@bartonbagnes4605 Nope, again there is no legitimate reason to believe there was Tumbaga, AND the problem remains. Tumbaga is just a copper blend of gold, and if it were 100% copper the problem still remains. At 100% copper you have: 1) recognition that it is copper, 2) the writing surface could be double, as it weighs 1/2 as much, and 3) the people who paid Joseph for treasure would know its value, that is why it had to be gold. Joseph was selling access to Spanish gold treasure hunts.
@@whatsup3270 Stop using second and third hand sources and start using first hand accounts for your information.
It's funny that you want to make the plates bigger to prove a point. I understand that they were bigger, but that means the weight becomes a much bigger issue. As much as trent may be wrong in some of his arguments, so is every LDS apologist with theirs. Because the BOM is false, and so is the LDS church.
Witnesses estimated that the plates weighed between 40 and 60 lbs, regardless of what the dimensions were.
@@keystoneldsYeah, and that means the angel was lying when he said Gold Plates, because the weight in gold would be far too much for that estimate. Also, gold is soft, so the weight would most likely start destroying characters on the plates, or the plates would start fusing back together. And I know you know all of this, and are now acting just like trent.
@@sertinduhm6378 I don't know that I'd say the angel Moroni was lying for not giving us a detailed metallurgical breakdown of the composition of the plates. But I'm happy to agree to disagree! Have a great day.
@@keystonelds so, care to explain why Joseph's temptation with the plates if they weren't gold? I think the people who aren't speaking the truth are J.S. and the LDS church in this one.
@@sertinduhm6378 my understanding is that tumbaga still contains quite a valuable amount of gold.