Hello. I am the author of By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus -- a New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri (Institute for Religious Research, Grand Rapids, MI 1992), and I strongly endorse the composition and content of this post. Thank you for using photos and illustrations from my book! At the time of my writing (1985) there was, of course, no attempt by the LDS church to "officially" explain or respond to the problems the reappearance of the papyri presented. So, since Smith's version didn't fit the actual Egyptian text, they essentially allowed various apologists -- "Defenders of the Faith" -- to present whatever cockamamy explanations they could come up with. In BHOHUP I described eight apologist rationalizations that were eventually offered. From the most orthodox to the most desperate, they are: 1) The "Hidden Meaning" theory 2) The "Mnemonic Device" theory 3) The "Any Egyptian Connection" theory 4) The "The Scribes Did It" theory 5) The "Missing Black and Red Scroll" theory 6) The "Mistaken Identity" theory 7) The "Catalyst" theory 8) The "Nobody Really Understands Egyptian Anyway" theory. The poor questioning, distraught Mormon would first be offered the least radical version, and if that didn't reassure them in the Faith, they would be moved on to the next, and so on. The idea wasn't to ever provide a definitive answer, just to find whatever level would satisfy the person enough to allow them to remain faithful in the LDS church. Interestingly, every one of the eight rationalizations are still used (in one form or another) to this day, and NOT ONE NEW explanation has ever come forth in the 40 years since I first described them. May God bless you all, Charles M. Larson (Yes, I am still alive.)
The lack of updates to these theories does not equate to a lack of worth. They each have their own evidence and flaws, but since we don't have most of the papyri, any speculation as to what papyri Joseph used and how will remain theory. That's the reason why the church says it's spiritual contents is more important to proving its worth than it's origin. Besides, what Joseph did get right is too shocking to just dismiss the whole thing as a sham.
@@uggmonster8795 Sounds exactly like what my old friend Hugh Nibley used to say back in the day, when he frankly admitted all he was doing with his "Improvement Era" articles was just "skirmishing and sparring for time" as the entire BofA narrative collapsed around him. Hugh may have enjoyed BS-ing everyone, but fortunately Joseph Smith left a very unambiguous record of precisely what he wanted others to believe about what he said he was doing, what he said he was doing it with, and how what he did resulted in what the LDS church has been left with. And there is no "speculation" involved in any of that. But then, there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Well said! One other problem I have with the book of Abraham is that, if Abraham really wrote it "while he was in Egypt", he wasn't Abraham quite yet. He was still Abram. God doesn't give him the name of Abraham until he reaches the land of Canaan decades later. This should be the Book of Abram and it should read, "I, Abram, saw that it was..." and so on. No one seems to talk about this issue and I've never heard of any response to this problem from the LDS church. Seems like a big mistake on Joseph's part to me.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
About 13 years ago when I first started learning about Mormonism, I emailed an Egyptologist a picture of the BOA images asking if he could translate it, not telling him where the pictures were from. He responded that these were “standard book of the dead” texts.
@@devinhildebrandt2709Are you saying LDS leaders did not have a brain for more than 100 years? Because they certainly didn’t know that. Nor did the broader LDS population until the last few decades. I briefly reviewed the Semitic adaptation theory and quite honestly it seems like hogwash to me. And I don’t believe it addresses some of the points made in this video about the claims that the manuscript itself represented the exact words of Abraham, and how Joseph was taking the Egyptian characters themselves to explain how they render the English translation we have today. It’s a total fraud and I really don’t see any way around it.
@@devinhildebrandt2709are you saying that LDS leaders did not have a brain for 100 years? Because they clearly did not know. Nor did the broader LDS community until the last few decades. As far as the Semitic adaptation theory, I’ve briefly read over it and honestly it seems like grasping at straws, to me. Nor does it seem to answer some of the key points noted in this video, such as the fact that Joseph was using the Egyptian characters themselves to show how they yielded the English translation he produced. It’s hard to see how this wasn’t a fraud.
@@BNichols021 that’s not how history works. That’s like saying “well Europeans were stupid because they didn’t know the Americas existed.” Ever since the translation of the Rosetta Stone and Egyptologists have been working on the BoA they have known. “I’ve briefly read over it….seems like grasping at straws.” Well, clearly you haven’t read much on the complexities of the issues. Since it’s free look up Kevin Barney’s paper on it. And David Bokovoys response to that paper. Even looking at the characters this video doesn’t actually address what’s going on. Because we actually DONT have the papyri used by Joseph. Antagonists and scholars from are church are nearly 100% unanimous that the BoA doesn’t come from papyri that we have. The papyri missing is massive, but of course this content creator loves to pretend that we do. So even if Joseph tried to translate the characters, we don’t even have what he had. And also the characters he marked were his attempt to translate, however obviously it was received as a revelation, not specifically a translation.
@@devinhildebrandt2709Bro, we have his translation of the facsimiles and we can see how he drew a human head onto what should have been Horus' head. We know he called the hyroglyph of Osiris with a boner, Elohim. We know he says this is a secret word or number when it doesn't say that. We have more than enough to substantiate the fraud charge.
It goes much deeper than the Book of Abraham. The Book of Mormon itself should have been convincing enough for anyone that has any sort of rational thought in their head, that this was a false religion. I think this was part of the reason why the Book of Mormon itself wasn't canonized until 1835; The subdefuge of the Book of Mormon was starting to wear off, so Joseph Smith needed something more tangible to give to those that were failing in their faith to Joseph Smith's new religion. I strongly believe part of the reason for this is because the plates didn't exist to begin with. There's no evidence for the Book of Mormon and there's still remains no evidence for the Book of Mormon, And that's when Justice Smith saw his opportunity after looking at what is now known as facsimile one, and have somehow overlap that in his head with Abraham. A couple years back I asked the Mormon lady that I rent from if the book of Abraham was true, and she said it was inspired by God. She was unaware that I had already read the account of how Joseph Smith translated the papyri and it wasn't an inspiration from God. Joseph Smith said in his own words that this was from Abraham's own hand and that he was attempting to make an actual translation. He didn't use his peep stone, he didn't use the Urim and Thummim (because they don't exist), so he was trying to squeeze a plausible story from these papyri. I've read a good portion of the book Abraham and it borders on Satanism. My reasoning for saying this is because in my youth, having dabbled in many different faiths, including witchcraft and Satanism, I see Satan's signature in this. Everything and anything that removes removes, changes, or substitutes God or the son, You might as well be worshiping Satan. When you point out to Mormons that their God is an exalted man who had false and mistakes like we did, but was found towards the end of his life to be worthy to receive godhood, is basically worshiping the image of a man. This is common in witchcraft and Satanism. Those that practice Wicca or witchcraft have the upright pentagram which is a representation of man. Satan worshipers use the inverted and appears as the head of a goat or baphomet, representing our animalistic side. I've seen old pictures of the Mormon temple and it is covered in satanic symbols taken from the Freemasons, including the inverted pentagram. They even had it on the doorknobs, above the doors, and then some of the windows. The all-seeing eye coming out of the clouds, and pillars standing on a crescent moon. It is literally Satanism disguised as Christianity. Satan rules the physical realm and the church is no exception. Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah witnesses, are all in the same boat. Mormons especially because everything that they hide from the public is fermented in rites, rituals, and ceremonies, in both the initiations of the priesthood and the second anointing. Blood oaths used to be a thing in the Mormon church until the early '90s, prayers repeated like a mantra, secret words given to one another in the sealing ceremonies, couple by secret handshakes and special clothing. Their sacrament is taken with water and leavened bread, even though they say they respect the Mosaic laws and traditions. The intricities of their beliefs are backwards from the Bible; Jesus was not part of the creation as it says in Scripture, but it was these group of gods that made the heavens of the earth. Their God is not omnipresent because he has a corporeal body. It is his planet that gives him the gift of the all-seeing sight because it's described as one giant Urim and Thummim which allows the Mormon God to see everything. Kind of like a gypsy with their crystal ball.
I'm a 67 y/o fella who was born & raised a mormon I bailed out at around 20 and have since discovered a true relationship with Jesus through the bible, prayer and by associating with fellow Christians. I appreciate the work you guys do at GLM. It is truly baffling that when mormons are confronted with this kind of irrefutable proof that their doctrine is false why they don't just walk away.
Similar story I was 18 when I left the LDS faith and discovered the true Jesus at age 28. I am equally baffled and saddened that LDS members cling so tightly to their feeling in spite of the evidence to the contrary.
Congratulations to both of you for leaving Mormonism and, more importantly, finding faith in Jesus. I agree the BoA seems like a good catalyst for LDS faith deconstruction. Did either of you struggle in transitioning your understanding of the Mormon Godhead versus Christian Trinity doctrines? Or did the air just burst in general for Mormonism and everything deflate all at once?
@@mikespage0123 thanks for asking! well in deconstructing from Mormonism I went headlong into atheism like most ex-Mormons do. I wrongly lumped Christianity into the same box. It wasn’t until a decade later in addiction and discovering dead ends in other belief systems that I came to the real Christ. And yes there was some theology and false understanding that I had for years after being born again that began to purge out. Namely that God the Father has a body.
@@glennjohn3919 yeah, your experience seems normal for the path of someone wearing similar shoes. It may not have felt normal I’m sure. But glad you made it through the wilderness! I imagine a deconstructed Mormon would benefit from some pastoral counseling to straighten out those understandings.
@@mikespage0123 Well once I became aware of how fraudulent mormonism was (around 19-20y/o) I didn't become an atheist I just became apathetic and had an overall distain towards organized religion. It wasn't until age 32when I married a Christian girl that I began the new journey albeit slowly at first.
I remember growing up in the LDS faith and remember always striving but never being certain I was good enough in Gods eyes to make it into the highest degree of glory. Little did i know I could never be good enough, and that’s exactly why Christ died for me! Glory to God that Christ gives us a FREE gift into heaven with the Father that can only be received by faith (Romans 4:5;Gal 2:16;Ephesians 1:13-14)
You just replaced one human written book with another one. You can put your faith in some afterlife that no one has ever seen or you can live the one life that you know you have in the here and now.
@@glennjohn3919 If it's a free gift why did Christ say "few there be that find it?" Because salvation is free and exaltation (ie eternal life) is not. Evangelicalism conflates the two If you aren't sure you are going to win the Super Bowl is the best strategy to quit the league!? 🤔
@@HaleStorm49 Good question. Why do few find it? When we look at all religions of the world what do we find? Works-based religions. Just like the Tower of Babel every man in his flesh wants to work their way to heaven. Why? Because men love darkness rather than light (John 1), men are inherently sinful (Ecclesiastes 7:20), they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1), and because of the root of all sin, pride. Men want the glory themselves. The Gnostic lie that men can become gods started in the garden in Genesis 3:5. The Bible doesn’t teach the LDS view of exhalation so there is no conflating going on, rather your forcing your doctrine into the text. Salvation is a gift (Eph 2:8-9), that is why God gave his son to die for all humanity. It’s by his grace and not our works. Destroy your Tower of Babel today and surrender to the one true God, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone and you will be justified and have a permanent spot in heaven (Ephesians 1:13-14).
@@glennjohn3919 It was God who declared that "man has become as one of us" in the Garden and Moses who recorded the discussion. Why are you blaming the gnostics? (in kidding, I know you are adapting to the creedal tradition)
@@HaleStorm49 Good question. Why do few find it? When we look at all religions of the world what do we find? Works based religions. Just like the Tower of Babel every man in his flesh wants to work their way to heaven. Why? Because men love darkness rather than light (John 1), men are inherently sinful Ecclesiastes 7:20), they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1), and because of the root of all sin, pride. Men want the glory themselves. The Gnostic lie that men can become gods started in the garden in Genesis 3:5. The Bible doesn’t teach the LDS view of exhalation. There is no conflating going on, rather your forcing your doctrine into the text. Salvation is a gift, that is why God gave his son to die for all humanity. It’s by his grace and not our works. Destroy your Tower of Babel today and surrender to the one true God, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone and you will be justified and have a permanent spot in heaven (Ephesians 1:13-14).
I grew up in Mormonism. Egyptologist Robert K Ritner (RIP) did a 3 part interview with Dr John Dehlin on Mormon Stories Podcast in July of 2020. Shortly after viewing that 15 hours of detailed information, and trying to see if the Mormon "Egyptologists" could answer any of the problems, that I realized the depths of the lies & deceit. I was also trying to make sense of Biblical inconsistencies through Bart Erhman's Podcast. Also Mythvision, Dr Richard Carrier, Richard Cavendish, Rabbi Tovia Singer and so many others. I take "scripture" with a significant salt block of skepticism. A couple of key factors that go along with the Book of Abraham translation problem is the Kinderhook plate translation scandal and his encounter with a Mminister with a Greek Psalter. Joseph tried to claim the Greek of the document was Hebrew and he tried to buy it. The minister knew what he had and had seen enough.
Have you ever checked out Inspiring Philosophy's channel? He has some really good videos on Biblical archeology, including interviews with Egyptologists, and cites scholarly sources for his work. I believe that he sets a good bar for authenticity, which the LDS books clearly don't pass. It's a great way to view and learn from actual ancient texts without having such a fundamentalist reading.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
@@koltoncrane3099 how goes the process of earning your way to godhood? Have you done enough "copy/paste" of your comment on RUclips to outdo all the wickedness? Help enough old ladies across the street? Given enough tithes and offerings to impress a holy God? That's your sign that Mormonism, like all other invented religions, is false. Any time a sinful human has to somehow impress or earn mercy from holy God, it's wrong. Turn from this abomination and learn about the true God who did the full work of salvation for you. In addition to it being the truth, it's also much more freeing knowing you no longer have to work your way into his favor: an impossible task for anyone.
@@koltoncrane3099 But the parts we do have are not even close to being written by Abraham, about Abraham…nothing. So only the missing parts are? Isn’t that just too convenient? And why isn’t the part of the papyrus that isn’t about Abraham discussed by Joseph? He glossed over the fact that it’s a standard burial text?
Trying to argue any of these points to a Active LDS member is like talking to a lunatic. They always counter with the most absurd argument and check it off like they won the argument.
As an outsider watching videos, the Abraham text switcheroo was jaw-dropping, and I knew then Joseph had charlatan traits. He probably thought no one was ever going to decipher the ancient Egyptologic texts. 😮
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
Just think if someone has told you that Jesus spit in dirt and healed someones blindness....or that someone was healed from touching a piece of an Aposlte' s fabric. No amount of examining would nlever convince an outsider who is determined to stay an outsider. Same reason Christ spoke in parables. The process for becoming an insider was designed to take more effort and humility than most are willing to give.
"Boys, we done f@cked up. How we gonna cover our asses and keep 'em believing? How much is this gonna cost in donations?" You KNOW that conversation happened.
Nope. It's the same old crap that has been answered now for over a decade. In fact, the Book of Abraham is becoming more and more vindicated as a text of ancient origin, thanks to the constant drip of new information on these topics. It's actually kind of funny, because most of the Christian world remains ignorant to the topics related to Its own religion 😅. A little curiosity wouldn't hurt here...
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
Keep them engaged by the power of the sunk cost fallacy towards tithes & offerings. Double down with a threat of a lesser glory ( Terrestrial ) if a Temple recommend isn't maintained for a ( Celestial ) Resurrection & Godhood.
"How we gonna cover our asses and keep 'em believing?" People believe for the same reason Peter believed. "How much is this gonna cost in donations?" $1.37
*Please watch-Dr. Robert Ritner, Mormon Stories: (1339, 1340 & 1341, 1591), LDS Discussions (Ep. 30, 31 & 32). There is 22 hours of detailed info in these videos!*
What a great channel!! I left Mormonism a year ago, but 5 years prior to that really examined the LDS faith. Gratefully, I held tight to the gospel taught by Jesus- and I had wonderfully supportive Christian friends who helped me along the way! My life has been changed and I have been born again! The happiness I feel now cannot even compare to the life I lived as a former LDS. 2 weeks ago, I chose to be baptized- this time it was MY decision because I love the Lord! I was able to baptize my teenage daughter, and it was such a beautiful experience for our family. I would never give up what truths I have now. Thank you for clearly showing that one can still have faith in Jesus without the gospel of Joseph.
Yes, I think the average person would agree with you.. however, mormons wont see it that way. If they can excuse everything J Smith did in his day, than this is nothing that will even test their faith and dedication to their religion. Its crazy, but its the truth. They are happy in their religion(most of them) I think we should just let them believe what they believe. It would be nice if they provided the same courtesy by not sending missionaries to our house every other week..
@@mdawgwhite " If they can excuse everything J Smith did in his day," Excusing Joseph Smith is not my problem. That's between God and Joseph Smith. "They are happy in their religion" (duh) yes, absolutely. If I was not I would not participate EXCEPT maybe in Zion where benefit exists to pretend. "by not sending missionaries to our house every other week." There's a "do not contact" list which is sometimes honored.
@@thomasmaughan4798 Joseph either translated it right, like he claimed, or he got it wrong. This is a binary thing. He was right or wrong. Are you suggesting he got the translation right, and everything we've learned about translating Egyptian today is wrong? This is direct and non-rhetorical, as there can be only one path in this specific situation: he was right, or wrong.
🎯 Key points for quick navigation: 00:01 *📜 Introduction to the Book of Abraham Controversy* - The Book of Abraham plays a central role in challenging Joseph Smith's legitimacy. - It's a unique text in LDS scriptures due to possessing an original manuscript. - Many view it as proof of Smith being a false prophet. 00:55 *🔍 Acquisition and Claims of the Papyrus* - Joseph Smith claimed the papyrus to be writings of Abraham and Joseph. - Acquisition and translation contextualized within 1835’s limited knowledge of Egyptian hieroglyphs. - The papyrus acquisition framed as an extraordinary occurrence by the LDS church. 03:43 *📑 Content and Teachings of the Book of Abraham* - The Book of Abraham discusses pre-mortal existence and eternal spirits. - Claims controversial teachings about race and priesthood eligibility. - Features facsimiles interpreted by Smith but fail scholarly validation. 06:32 *🗞️ Rediscovery and Discrepancies of the Papyrus* - Rediscovery of the papyrus in 1967 discredited Smith’s translations. - Scholars found them to be standard Egyptian funeral texts. - The LDS church’s response lacked tackling translation discrepancies directly. 10:57 *🏛️ LDS Response and Theories* - Official LDS essays provided potential, yet unprovable, explanations. - Suggested theories emphasized spiritual revelation over literal translation. - Such explanations conflict with Smith’s own statements about the papyrus. 14:11 *⚖️ Objective vs. Subjective Faith Tests* - The handling of the Book of Abraham highlights a focus on subjective faith. - Concerns about LDS detachment from objective historical analysis. - Invites Latter-day Saints to heed biblical warnings against false prophets. 18:09 *🌍 Conclusion and Call to Evaluate Beliefs* - Urges LDS members to separate Jesus from Joseph Smith in their beliefs. - Encourages evaluating Smith with objective criteria provided in scripture. - Stresses that faith can remain intact without tying it to Joseph Smith’s prophethood. Made with HARPA AI
My favorite debunk that most do not point out is that Smith 'translated' his BoM into the wrong language, into Middle English, which was not used during his time. No one would translate into the wrong language unless it was specifically meant to directly mimic the KJB.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
Hmm yes many have mentioned that. I think it’s fine the Book of Mormon English mimics the king James version. That being said even the King James Version is horrible! Did you know the first verse of the Bible in Hebrew says gods. It’s plural. And the Jewish kaballah which is taught to a man once he’s at least 40 years old teaches there’s like 23 gods with big god over them.
@@koltoncrane3099 but when the manuscript was uncovered, the church itself published articles about it saying it was recovered, not that 10% of it was recovered. And that drawing of the undertaker over the body, and that’s the same illustration JS said was supposed to be Abraham. I mean, faith is faith, you can choose to believe whatever you want without reference to any facts; but if you try to convince others, then facts matter.
"No one would translate into the wrong language unless it was specifically meant to directly mimic the KJB." Yes, that is correct. It is recognizably "holy language" and not vernacular or profane. Nearly every household had a bible and often it was the only book in the house.
@@koltoncrane3099 LDS PLEASE DON'T REJECT GOD OF BIBLE & FOLLOW THE FALSE EVOLVING GODS OF Joseph Smith? ISN'T YOUR ETERNITY WORTH EXAMINING THE TRUTH? "Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of J.S. and LDS members. Isaiah 44:6 says, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." and it goes on "Is there any God besides me?... I know not one" So obviously God is saying there is NOT any infinite amount of Gods, and there is none other like Him. Mormonism teaches that there is. LDS paid scholar Dan McClellan in 2024: " The data pretty firmly points in the OPPOSITE direction of a historical BOM" youtube short video "Is the BOM historical?" There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the Book of Mormon. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “The first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists” conceding 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77) NO trace of Jewish DNA found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from time period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (Mormon scholar, DNA researcher): “the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are not Hebrews, they are not Israelites. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005 NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 drawings taken from an ancient Egyptian papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus showing scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In drawings Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE NO trace of “2 million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. It is impossible for these millions of dead warriors in metal armor to leave no trace. NO trace of the "great" city Zarahemla- it is impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla described in BOM (Alma 5:2; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace. NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. This "temple" could not just disappear. NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings described by J.S. ever found anywhere as it is not a real language anywhere in the world. NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) ANYWHERE. It would be impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed. NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet NOT ONE ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for highly advanced civilizations (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished. The BOM speaks of sheep, swine, silk, wool clothing & elephants existing in the Americas when they did not. 1 Ne.13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24 These were brought to America centuries later by Europeans. NO wheat, no goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no cattle, no chariot parts, no brass (Mosiah 8:10) no evidence of the listed Kings in BOM, no Jewish relics or Jewish Temples from supposed Jews, no metal plates like Nephites supposedly used, no middle eastern seeds growing, "which were brought from the land of Jerusalem ... and grew exceedingly" 1 Nephi 18:24 CAN WE IGNORE THE LACK OF EVIDENCE FOR THE THE BOOK OF MORMON AND JUST TRUST OUR FEELINGS AS TO THE TRUTH OF IT EVEN THOUGH IT CONFLICTS WITH THE BIBLE? NO! D&C Section 9:8-9 - tell us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The Bible warns us against this subjective type of truth test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be deceived. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL." The Scriptures, however, are infallible and can never be wrong (John 17:17; Psalm 119:128; 33:4; 19:8; Romans 3:4). This is why the Bible frequently urges us to study and meditate on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS (J.S.) have gone out into the world."
Mormonism CLAIMS the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods . However, this is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was CORRUPTED and "plain and precious parts" were removed after the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and ABOMINABLE church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Most Mormons believe this is the Catholic Church formed in the 4th century. Nephi claims this church was founded by the DEVIL (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively examine the Bible & BOM. BIBLE: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll, which is the oldest known copy of the Book of Isaiah dated to 180 BC. Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said. Also, if they had been corrupted, Jesus would have corrected scripture instead of affirming it! Jesus sd:“ I told you EVERYTHING written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46) Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Joseph Smith was wrong. These scrolls pre-dated Catholics, and are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity". 1Nephi 13:25 LDS Apologist Wayne Ham admitted the Isaiah scroll does not support the the BOM. Apologist Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, of BYU, said the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Professor Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984) IS THE GOD OF THE BOOK OF MORMON THE SAME ONE AS IN THE BIBLE? NO! In the LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26) Like Joseph Smith, the goal of Satan was to be like God and have worshipers. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God ... I will be like the Most High”’ (Isaiah 14:12-14) The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the book of John. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 150 AD, around the Apostle John's time) John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google) John 1:1 Joseph Smith mistranslation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV. In order to try to make things work for LDS, J.S. added extra verses and verbiage into John 1 that were never there in any ancient texts to try to separate the idea of a trinity into 3 Gods. There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and NONE support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted. Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17) The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous. God is much greater than the humanoid of Mormonism and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS. Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "many wolves in sheep's clothing" will come trying to add to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and taught you can become a GOD. It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for the lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal God found in the bible. "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269 Apostle Orson Pratt, in The Seer, page 172, “the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a Polygamist…The son followed the example of his Father" God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, which is why he does tell us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version fails the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.
@@MrMuaythai84grateful for modern day prophets and revelations! Grateful to not follow the Nicene Creed put together by Emperor Constantine. That would be like Biden getting religious figures together to make doctrine for the church.
@@Ayala-99Do you have any evidence that Constantine is responsible for the formation of the Nicene Creed or is it merely an assumption/claim you are making?
@@Ayala-99 Perhaps you should spend more time studying ancient history and Church history. The Nicene Creed was just a confirmation of beliefs that pretty much everyone already held by that time, taught by the Apostles and their succesors, with no involvement of Constantine. And there were many other ecumenical councils that just went and confirmed Christian beliefs further. All of Christianity now follows the Nicene-Constantinoplan Creed and the Apostles' Creed, while some Churches of the East stick to the Nicene Creed. I don't mean to be rude, for real, but it is not healthy to just assume things that aren't historically true. You should question yourself and use your reason, and not just go and repeat the words of some spiteful and misinformed preacher that doesn't want you to think by yourself.
As an ex-Mormon I realized that the doctrine that the Mormons have are directly given from an Angel of light. This realization terrified me and I do feel like many Mormons are good people, who are being fooled by a doctrine that was from the devil himself.
"who are being fooled by a doctrine that was from the devil himself." The difference between a Korihor and a Nehor, is that Nehor is apostate. Both are destructive and offer nothing. "14 Behold, these things which ye call prophecies, which ye say are handed down by holy prophets, behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers."
@@thomasmaughan4798 the Bible warns of the Mormon doctrine thousands of years before it’s creation. Galatians 1: 8-20 It also warns that anything added or taken away will cause a man to be accursed. This is a revelation from Jesus Christ. Specifically it warned of the Satan who masquerades as an Angel of light. The Angel of light is who Joseph met. Corinthians 11:14 Angels of God are referred to as just that. And Angel of god or an Angel of he lord. John 10: 1-12 the only way to salvation is through the door, which is Jesus Christ. All others are thieves come to destroy and kill.
@@kittiemarie1235 I come to these anti-Mormon channels hoping to someday maybe encounter a NEW complaint, one that would make me think about it for more than two seconds. even so, I shall give consideration to each complaint. "the Bible warns of the Mormon doctrine thousands of years before it’s creation." That seems unlikely. Furthermore "the bible" has almost no meaning in this context. There was no bible prior to the Catholics creating it. At any rate, I do not know any scripture in the usual bibles that warn against "Mormon doctrine". "Galatians 1: 8-20 It also warns that anything added or taken away will cause a man to be accursed. This is a revelation from Jesus Christ." Yes and no. It is a letter from Paul to the Galatians. They have apparently been taught a gospel but not Paul's gospel. As to adding and taking away; from what, exactly? The bible did not exist. This letter exists. It seems to be a warning not to tamper with the letter. As to revelation from Jesus Christ; maybe, but the letter does not claim it. What it claims is that PAUL received the gospel by revelation. 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, *neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ* . And yet: 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. So it is conflicted. Did Paul receive instruction solely by revelations (v12) or by instruction from Peter (v18) probably both. So how exactly did Paul become an apostle? He seems to claim it, wasn't appointed: 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) So, anyone could CLAIM to be an apostle and who is to say otherwise? You? "Specifically it warned of the Satan who masquerades as an Angel of light. Corinthians 11:14" 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Yes, it is a masquerade, and why not? You are much more likely to believe an angel of light rather than an angel of dark. Satan can *also masquerade as a minister of righteousness* such as exist in large numbers on anti-mormon channels. "John 10: 1-12 the only way to salvation is through the door, which is Jesus Christ" Yes, that is fundamental mormon doctrine. I do not see the problem here. Does the door keeper (Jesus Christ) wish anything from you? No? Does the door keeper *require* anything from you? Christians vary widely on that question.
@@jonathanpearson2795 yes because there will be many false prophets and many anti-Christs. It says this in scripture! Good catch! Interestingly the origin story of both these religions is eerily similar!
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
"hopefully this gets some Latter Day Saints questioning their church" Yes. That is why you exist; to help separate wheat from tares, sheep from goats. "Questioning" is easy. Answering less easy. "turning to the real and living Christ." Yes, do that, but by which tradition? There's about ten thousand denominations of Christianity; and who is to say that it must be Jesus and not Allah or Buddha? Can you say whether Jesus IS God, or the Son of God? To whom was he praying? So, yeah, QUESTION and when you need answers, look to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It even has "Jesus" in the name!
Actually non lds egyptologists are admitting that Joseph Smith didnt translate the Abraham papyri wrong and they are posting it on youtube link title (….book of abraham scholar critic admits I’m right) …type in this exact title to get there.
I got my LDS friend to admit that the book of Abraham is fishy, if not false. I sent him a video from Mike W, titled something like "I Think I Found Proof Mormonism Isn't True"
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
@@HaleStorm49I love Mike Winger and think he’s one of the best Bible teachers online right now, even if I disagree with him on certain things. Mormonism isn’t his strong suit and if I had the chance to sit down with him I’d correct him as an ex-Mormon. However, when you treat him with that kind of derision and disrespect, it makes you look petty and jealous.
@@HaleStorm49 he isnt laughing at Mormons, he’s trying to expose Christians to what Mormons believe to protect the body of Christ from the wolves in sheep’s clothing that are Mormon missionaries and leaders. There’s a huge difference. You’re just laughing at the man.
Yet, their BYU "Egyptologists"and apologists continue to spin new twisted theory's. It is so sad. 😢 I am thankful for your channel, GLM. Keep up the good work. May the Lord bless you in Jesus holy name.✝️🕊️❤️🔥🙏
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
ruclips.net/video/hxPzpbJnyKk/видео.html * That link is to a different qualified scholars interpretation on RUclips video based on new discoveries in Egypt. We need to be objective and fair by considering new modern discoveries in Egypt that seem to give credence to what Smith claimed and that shows past Egyptologists did not have a full understanding. We need to be honest and not bias and prejudice, unlike woke political new journalists who have an agenda.
...this was one of the first things we looked at before leaving the LDS church almost a year later. Without questions, Jospeh Smith was unable to translate even with the so called power of God. This was supposed to be the evidence that God was working through him, but clearly he wasn't. Therefore Jospeh Smith is a false prophet and the LDS church is founded on a fallacy which is so evident in the other doctrine he came up with like three kingdoms of glory in heaven (the Bible does NOT have the word telestial), polygamy in the Celecial Kingdom and the concept that we could actually become gods ourselves and that God the Father was a man just like us. This is so contrary to the Bible, so we left.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
I will say this the Bible was made by the dying Roman Empire. Did you know Catholics did mass book burnings and killed thousands. When a soldier was told to kill gnostics in the south of France he asked the pope how do we tell if they’re gnostic. The pope said kill em all god will sort em out. While the Bible may have a lot of truth you’re insane to think it’s 100% right when a corrupt organization made it and used it to retain control for a very long time.
The irony is that when Christianity fails the same object test (eg. With Noah's Ark), most Christians will come up with similar excuses rather than reevaluate their beliefs.
@samvodopianov9399 it's the biblical text that's problematic. Just because it's in your cannon doesn't make it any less ridiculous or demonstrably false.
I am a practicing Catholic for the last 45 years, raised in the Church of the Nazarene. I am a believer, but I recognize that any Faith, all faiths , do not past objective tests. Faith is not something to know but to believe. I choose to believe because of the religions I have studied it is the one I want to be true. I pray and attend Church but I recognize the Bible not has a true historic text but like any textbook, presents parables that I can glean truths from it to live a better and more fulfilling life. But I cannot know.
Why are Catholics always quick to reject the historical value of The Bible? I grew up catholic btw, I left the denomination and have my own ideas on Christianity, still a Christian.
Their entire apologetic is "read the book of Mormon and see if you feel it is true in your heart". They're in an utterly barren religion that can't make any sort of truth claim
I've read it. it's not even that well written. Tolkien is a far far better, more enjoyable read (subjective, of course). What is NOT subjective is this: Moroni 10 claims of "spiritual witness" is false. It's empty; there's nothing there. I feel moved far more from Tolkien's works, and certain other great men's writings, than Joseph's book.
@@saa8488 "I feel moved far more from Tolkien's works, and certain other great men's writings, than Joseph's book. Some do, some don't. But that is true of nearly everything.
@@saa8488 " Tolkien is a far far better, more enjoyable read" I tend to agree; they are different kinds of book. "As to the creation of The Lord of the Rings, he arrived at its conclusion after seventeen years, at the cost of 'immense pains', as Christopher Tolkien put it" Joseph Smith did Book of Mormon in 60 days. J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings drew inspiration from a variety of sources, including: Places Tolkien was inspired by many places, including Sarehole Mill near Birmingham for Hobbiton, Cheddar Gorge for Helm's Deep's caves, and the Uffington White Horse for Rohan. Tolkien also cited the Silberhorn, a side peak of the Jungfrau in Switzerland, as an inspiration. Language Tolkien was a gifted linguist and drew on Germanic, Celtic, Finnish, Slavic, and Greek languages and mythologies. Norse mythology and Icelandic folktales Tolkien was inspired by Icelandic books like the Sagas and Prose Edda, as well as Norse mythology. Personal experiences Tolkien's childhood in Worcestershire, England, and his experiences fighting in World War I as a British Army officer at the Battle of the Somme also influenced the book. Tolkien said he created the mythology to express his feelings about good, evil, and fairness. Relationships Tolkien's forbidden romance with Edith, an Anglican woman, inspired some of the book's characters, such as Arwen and Aragorn, whose story is similar to that of a mortal man and an immortal elf woman Joseph Smith: Well, he was a farm boy. Not much in the way of source material.
@@thomasmaughan4798 I appreciate your appreciation of Tolkien. You’ve clearly spent time on him. I suggest spending similar time on Joseph, as that “60 days” claim is dishonest. Perhaps not on your part, but those who gave it to you. He spent years reading the story, an assertion backed up by his own mother. Two hours of dictation per day, with a readied story, a King James Bible open in front of him (when he wasn’t stuffing his head on a hat not translating claimed plates), taking breaks, all odd it dictated to supportive scribes, using names he was familiar with or simple enough to make up (“pay lay ale”? lol), stopping for months after he lost part of the manuscript knowing he could never reproduce it word for word, which would be a simple treat if he were actually translating plates, suddenly it becomes easier to understand. Adding in the anachronisms coming from pulling ideas out of the King James Version, horses, steel, translation artifacts he didn’t understand and got wrong, and not a single ounce of israelite DNA in the “Lamanites” anywhere in the Americas like he said they had (blood, he obviously didn’t know about DNA), the large pile of corpses that are things Joseph got wrong is a big pile of problems the church danced around and either ignores or guilts you into ignoring “it’ll only harm your testimony to read certain things”. Almost like letting a child Know Santa is not real. And it certainly doesn’t contain “thethe fullness of the gospel” leaving out two separate priesthoods, polygamy, endowments, anything temple related, and everything else Joseph created to cover his adultery. Yes, I agree he and Tolkien are nothing alike.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
"That truth is only found in Jesus and His word in the bible." Hmm. So what makes you think Jesus of the bible is "truth"? Why is not the Bagavad Gita just as holy? Why not the Koran? About those words; they were written from memory about 40 years later. Good words for sure; but is there a book anywhere on Earth that does not proclaim itself? The Urantia book claims itself, the Koran claims itself, the Book of Mormon claims itself. The bible isn't a "book" per se; it is a collection of writings. Why do you not accept further writings? Anyone inspired by God can write, is that any less scripture than what Paul wrote?
I grew up Mormon and was always fascinated by the book of Abraham. Imagine my extreme disappointment when I finally learned it was all made up. Thank you for helping to bring this fraud to light and encouraging people to think critically
We left the church 4 years ago. We moved away during Covid and never went back. Requested our family be removed from the rolls of the church, and we were done. The Gospel Topics Essays did it for me. I told a friend still in the church that it felt like finding out my wife had been unfaithful to me from day one and that none of my children are actually mine. He is still in the church. He decided to embrace the lie nevertheless.
As long as you allow for miracles, any problem can be explained away. For example, in this case, God, in His infinite wisdom miraculously changed the papyri to look like a common Egyptian burial scroll after Smith was done, so that Joseph Smith (no relation) would be the only mortal give the honor of seeing the original text. You can't argue with people who believe in miracles. They can always pull a miracle out of their hat.
The Book of Abraham, along with all the works in the Pearl of Great Price, along with the Doctrine and Covenants, with the Book of Mormon, and with the Old and New testament has brought me so close to Jesus Christ. I am thankful for the inspired scriptures, including the Book of Abraham.
@@saleemfrazer3643 he said that the scrolls were returned when only 10 scraps were returned. He shows "nearly identical" pictures that are significantly different. The person laying down in his pictures is mummified with their feet together (i recently learned this means the person is dead) and arms close to their bodies. Where in the book of Abraham pictur the body is not mummified, feet are one in front of the other (meaning they are alive) and the arms are raised possibly in defense or begging. He points out that Joseph taught the world was created out of preexisting matter. His point is Joseph is wrong because he believes in creation out of nothing even the Bible doesn't say that. And doesn't mention that Joseph's teachings line up with Hebrew/Jewish teachings. As far as I know Joseph did not say that it was the actual handwriting of Abraham but I think an apostle said or implied it. I stopped watching half way through so I dont know if there's more. He mocks the fact that the golden plates are not available to see if the translation is correct as if someone today could easily translate them, and ignores the fact that we dont have the original Bible to see if our translation is correct. He would probably point to the dead sea scrolls as evidence but they date to 200ad. Thats a long time after Christ and even longer after Moses. He's very crafty. If I didn't already know these things I would have been fooled. One thing I've noticed about people like this is that they spend all their time debase mormonism but never share what they offer.
Have you heard of the Holy Ghost? let me introduce the third member of the Godhead. His job is to testify of the Father and the Son and to bring us to all truth! When He reveals truth it is burned into our souls! That is why I am a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints!
Not the bible. God bless. LDS PLEASE DON'T REJECT GOD OF BIBLE & FOLLOW THE FALSE EVOLVING GODS OF Joseph Smith? ISN'T YOUR ETERNITY WORTH EXAMINING THE TRUTH? "Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of J.S. and LDS members. Isaiah 44:6 says, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." and it goes on "Is there any God besides me?... I know not one" So obviously God is saying there is NOT any infinite amount of Gods, and there is none other like Him. Mormonism teaches that there is. LDS paid scholar Dan McClellan in 2024: " The data pretty firmly points in the OPPOSITE direction of a historical BOM" youtube short video "Is the BOM historical?" There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the Book of Mormon. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “The first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists” conceding 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77) NO trace of Jewish DNA found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from time period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (Mormon scholar, DNA researcher): “the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are not Hebrews, they are not Israelites. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005 NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 drawings taken from an ancient Egyptian papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus showing scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In drawings Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE NO trace of “2 million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. It is impossible for these millions of dead warriors in metal armor to leave no trace. NO trace of the "great" city Zarahemla- it is impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla described in BOM (Alma 5:2; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace. NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. This "temple" could not just disappear. NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings described by J.S. ever found anywhere as it is not a real language anywhere in the world. NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) ANYWHERE. It would be impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed. NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet NOT ONE ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for highly advanced civilizations (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished. The BOM speaks of sheep, swine, silk, wool clothing & elephants existing in the Americas when they did not. 1 Ne.13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24 These were brought to America centuries later by Europeans. NO wheat, no goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no cattle, no chariot parts, no brass (Mosiah 8:10) no evidence of the listed Kings in BOM, no Jewish relics or Jewish Temples from supposed Jews, no metal plates like Nephites supposedly used, no middle eastern seeds growing, "which were brought from the land of Jerusalem ... and grew exceedingly" 1 Nephi 18:24 CAN WE IGNORE THE LACK OF EVIDENCE FOR THE THE BOOK OF MORMON AND JUST TRUST OUR FEELINGS AS TO THE TRUTH OF IT EVEN THOUGH IT CONFLICTS WITH THE BIBLE? NO! D&C Section 9:8-9 - tell us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The Bible warns us against this subjective type of truth test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be deceived. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL." The Scriptures, however, are infallible and can never be wrong (John 17:17; Psalm 119:128; 33:4; 19:8; Romans 3:4). This is why the Bible frequently urges us to study and meditate on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS (J.S.) have gone out into the world."
Mormonism CLAIMS the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods . However, this is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was CORRUPTED and "plain and precious parts" were removed after the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and ABOMINABLE church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Most Mormons believe this is the Catholic Church formed in the 4th century. Nephi claims this church was founded by the DEVIL (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively examine the Bible & BOM. BIBLE: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll, which is the oldest known copy of the Book of Isaiah dated to 180 BC. Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said. Also, if they had been corrupted, Jesus would have corrected scripture instead of affirming it! Jesus sd:“ I told you EVERYTHING written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46) Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Joseph Smith was wrong. These scrolls pre-dated Catholics, and are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity". 1Nephi 13:25 LDS Apologist Wayne Ham admitted the Isaiah scroll does not support the the BOM. Apologist Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, of BYU, said the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Professor Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984) IS THE GOD OF THE BOOK OF MORMON THE SAME ONE AS IN THE BIBLE? NO! In the LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26) Like Joseph Smith, the goal of Satan was to be like God and have worshipers. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God ... I will be like the Most High”’ (Isaiah 14:12-14) The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the book of John. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 150 AD, around the Apostle John's time) John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google) John 1:1 Joseph Smith mistranslation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV. In order to try to make things work for LDS, J.S. added extra verses and verbiage into John 1 that were never there in any ancient texts to try to separate the idea of a trinity into 3 Gods. There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and NONE support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted. Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17) The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous. God is much greater than the humanoid of Mormonism and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS. Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "many wolves in sheep's clothing" will come trying to add to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and taught you can become a GOD. It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for the lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal God found in the bible. "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269 Apostle Orson Pratt, in The Seer, page 172, “the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a Polygamist…The son followed the example of his Father" God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, which is why he does tell us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version fails the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.
I'll agree with that (as an evangelical Christian). It's in the denominations AND in the non-denominations. The ONLY way to protect yourself & your family from these charlatans (other than common sense) is to: "Continue in the doctrine of the apostles" (Acts 2:42) and believe Simon Peter's claim that we have been given "all things that pertain to life & godliness" already, through the knowledge of Jesus Christ in the Bible (2 Peter 1:3). If we have it "all" already, then we'll never have to ask for "more". And if we can believe what the apostles said, Simon Peter said: even HIS own personal first-hand experience of seeing, touching, hearing Jesus-his "testimony"-was not as "sure" a word of prophecy as what the Bible says. (2 Peter 2:16-21) Too bad so many LDS people (and other professing Christians) build their entire faith on their own experiences and feelings (and what they are told) rather than on what the Bible says. Knowing the real is all that can save you from being duped by the counterfeit.
I'm 40 years old, atheist, and an ex-Mormon. I left the church last October. This is a very fair and accurate assessment of the Book of Abraham problem. Very well done. You did a very good job of balancing respect for the beliefs of Mormons with the ridiculousness of the history of the book. There are other reasons to leave the church, of course. But this is one of the huge ones.
Is there a reason you’ve chosen to disbelieve in God entirely upon leaving the church? I get it as an ex-Mormon myself, but I think the evidence supporting Christianity is too strong to ignore overall.
@@HaleStorm49 I’m aware of the statistics of those who leave Mormonism. But Mormonism teaching a false god and false Christ doesn’t mean the true Christ and true God aren’t still real.
@@austinnajar Quite simply - because modern Christianity bears the same marks of high demand religion that Mormonism has. Regarding Biblical "proof," as referenced in this video, I'd simply point to the work of Dan McClellan, who I consider an expert in the field. There is no scientific evidence for the "truth" of Christianity - only carefully chosen rhetorical "evidence." My life is better without it.
@@danielevensen5539 you don’t use the scientific method to prove history. You use the evidentiary method and the evidence does point to Christianity being reliable and true. Also, if you truly think Christianity is a high demand religion, I would suggest you aren’t truly knowledgeable about what Christian theology teaches.
Had a few words with 2 young fellas the other day about this. I am Navajo we have a long history with the LDS. Once I got into the history they immediately said "have a good day" then left. Lol. I will pray for them for sure..
"Once I got into the history they immediately said "have a good day" " Missionaries are instructed to NOT get into debate. They don't have time for that and tend not to be thoroughly familiar with the topics you consider important. They are FINDERS. Sheep know their shepherd's voice.
Have you come across the Mormon Stories Podcast? There's a whole library full of videos exposing Mormonism and a slew of ppl arguing in support of the Mormon religion. It wears me out debating them. They don't listen, they are indoctrinated to the death. I find it more difficult to debate Mormons than to debate an Atheist. Maybe that's the difference between believing in nothing vs something 🤔 it's a tuff job, keep on doing the Lord's work!
@@kristinelabounty6856 now you know how the Pharisees felt dealing with all the christians. It just have been maddening... Even after they murdered their leader.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
"They don't listen, they are indoctrinated to the death." Who exactly are "they"? The people on this channel and others? Who is there that is NOT indoctrinated in one theology or another? "I find it more difficult to debate Mormons" It's easy; but largely pointless. You believe what you believe for various reasons and I believe what I believe for various reasons. RUclips comments are not really a good place to calmly discuss these beliefs and reasons. As you can see, most of the Korihor's and Nehor's don't have much in the way of *belief* but a lot in the way of *disbelief* . "Maybe that's the difference between believing in nothing vs something" Yes, exactly, almost the point I was making. Most attacks on the church stop with the attack. If you want to move people, you offer something better, more comprehensive. Christianity for the most part is a complete shambles; people cannot even decide whether Jesus is the Son of God, or IS God; most seem to go with incomprehensibility and are happy with it. So, The Church of Jesus Christ has four books of knowledge, that's a lot of "something". Why would I walk away from that? Why would I leave light and knowledge and walk toward confusion? Well, I don't.
Good Work Beloved Brother, same as you, I was Borned Catholic and With the values of Protestantism and Have So many Questions About the Truth History and The Bible but like you Always got the Answers By precepts of men, just Protesting the Catholic Belief and By Investigating the Mormons or "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". It just Lighten my Mind Answer every Questions I Ask Through Prays, Studying the Bible with the Guidance of the Holy Spirit. God Truely Lives and Answers me in my Heart, That Joseph is a really a True Prophet of God, Restore his One and Only True Church and it is His "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"... only this Church Answers Every question when it comes to the Truthfulness of the The True Gospel of Jesus Christ Answers by Our Loving and Living God, not by precepts of Men😊🙏God Bless Beloved Brother...
That was a great video, well put together and I appreciate that you share the truth that we can still have good reason to believe in Jesus without LDS.
Agreed, that was a much needed (and often forgotten by us evangelicals) message to those LDS people we are trying to speak to. Paul preached Jesus. We should never leave him out!
I'm Mormon. I'm for sure born again in Christ as he pulled me from the grave. I'm not born again in Mormonism. I'm born again in Christ. As are all people who are born again. Luke 9 49-50. Those who are not against us are with us.
Not 1 person who is truly born again can ever be a mormon, as being born again will remove you from deceptive false doctrines and lds/ morm9nism is extremely far from truth. -ex mormon who used to believe the great mormon lie.
The subjective experience that you described as common among Mormons is also depicted in the Bible. “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?” This burning of the hearts described by the disciples Testify to the biblical reality of this “subjective experience”, And this is, indeed, why many Mormons Cling to their faith no matter what evidence is presented to them. It is a very difficult subjective experience to disavow. I know because as an ex Mormon of more than 30 years I am still haunted by these experiences, I had many experiences in which I felt this burning, conviction, clarity, love sweep over me and I know they are real as much as any past experience I have lived through. I have sought to replicate these experiences in other churches but have not found anything close. As a result I have contemplated a return to Mormonism but am daunted by such realities as the book of Abraham and myriads of others I could write volumes about. So I keep myself aloof from all who claim to uniquely know the true faith. But I say these “subjective experiences” you describe and criticize are very real, convincing and powerful and i hove found them nowhere so profound as wham I was involved in Mormonism. I would like to shun it, disavow it entirely, but I cannot. That’s how strong and convincing these experiences are, they completely trump rationality
Luke 24:32 is not given as a point of doctrine for confirming the truth of the Gospel. It was an acknowledgement of the reaction in the heart of hearts of the two men as the risen, living Christ was directly, in real time, opening the Scriptures to them.
@@freespeech4all757 I find it ludicrous when people speak as if they know the mind, and will of God, as if they are uniquely aware of the true meaning of scripture, who dogmatically say it is this way or that way. explaining scripture is a matter of opinion, of interpretation, there is great debate about much of it. It is the height of arrogance to Dogmatically say here’s what it means
@@johnfaris5376 It just takes a little bit of common sense to determine what is transpiring between the two disciples and the risen Christ on the road to Emmaus. I'm sure if Jesus - the creator of heaven and earth - was right next to you and giving you a thorough exposition of the Word of God, you would have some kind of intense reaction as well. This was common with those who heard Christ - "And when He had finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at His teaching", and "“Never has anyone spoken like this man!” . So it doesn't take a deep theological dive to understand the plain meaning of Luke 24:32. No theological doctrine is being established in this verse.
This is a great video... in fact the notion of a personal experience as being the basis for validating theology is _refuted_ by the fact that one's subjective feelings are based on their desires and James warns us "when desire has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." (James 1:15). it is precisely that desire of a "burning in the bosom" held *_contrary_* to the teachings of Scripture that are the greatest avenue by which the devil captivates those who do not receive a love of the truth (John 8:31-32, 2Cor 4:3-7, 2Thes 2:9-12)
ruclips.net/video/hxPzpbJnyKk/видео.html * That link is to a different qualified scholars interpretation on RUclips video based on new discoveries in Egypt. We need to be objective and fair by considering new modern discoveries in Egypt that seem to give credence to what Smith claimed and that shows past Egyptologists did not have a full understanding. We need to be honest and not bias and prejudice, unlike woke political new journalists who have an agenda.
What about the Kirkland Temple? Did Jesus visit the Kirkland temple and those other heavenly figures giving them the sealing power or was that false as well?
Hi! No, I'd say that Jesus did not appear in the Kirtland Temple. Perhaps there was a spirit masquerading as Jesus...but Jesus did not physically appear. Apart from the historical context, I feel pretty confident of that because of what Jesus said in Matthew 24 - "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." When they say "look, he is in the inner rooms [of the temple]" - I can have confidence that He was, in fact, not there. When Jesus comes - it will be like lightning! Visible, public, and obvious!
@@GLM thank you! I feel so gullable and dumb for asking lol, I guess the LDS has no credible evidence of heavenly visitors or angels or John the Baptist or Peter James and John! It’s all Lies 🥺 damn!
@johnferredino5111 Those are good questions. If you read the accounts from the men that were there, they had all been instructed to fast all day and then they drank wine into the early morning hours. There was 'speaking of tongues and visions' claimed. So in my estimation this was not supernatural at all, more the result of the effects of fasting and alcohol, and the early 19th century culture at play.
@@johnferredino5111 No no, wasn't trying to make you feel dumb - especially not for asking! It's absolutely worth discussing these things and asking such questions!
This video raised a few questions, I'd like for you to address them: 1. Beware of false prophets. That's right, that's what Jesus taught. Who are the good prophets then? How do you distinguish them from the evil ones? Are they just the prophets mentioned in the Bible? 2. How do you know the Bible is true? Is it just historical fact? The testimony of living witnesses? First-hand authorship? Is it because it is a real translation of the original writings? How do you know that that is the case if an original manuscript has never been found? 3. If your testimony of the Bible is spiritual, come from the Holy Ghost, have you sought for that witness about the work written by Joseph Smith, or in other words, the works the Lord inspired Joseph Smith to write? If not, it probably is because you don't believe God could do such things these days and you deny His power. Plus, if you apply that method to the Bible but not to any other book, would you say God has ended His work of revealing Himself as He did in the Bible? 4. Are the books of the New Testament untrue because we already had the Old Testament? 5. How do you explain all the other prophecies Joseph Smith revealed that came true despite other people's belief in them? 6. How can you say the book of Abraham isn't exactly what Joseph translated? Is it because other scholars said so? Don't some of them also invalidate the truthness about the Bible and Jesus and we keep our belief in the Bible anyway? Isn't that what faith is for? 7. You blame the document not being true because Hgh Nibley wasn't able to give a translation of it to the public, but Hugh Nibley is a scholar, not a prophet. The further he could go would be as far as human power would allow. Just like with any miracle in the New Testament. 8. You literally say in the conclusion of your video that this highlights the problem with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that we take things subjectively. How is this any different to what any Christian saint in any denomination does? We just vary but what we take subjectively and what is literal. One example is baptism: we do take it literally that one must be baptized in water like Jesus did, according to the script, getting in the water then out of the water (immersion), while other Christian believe that this is just symbolic or that baptism is not needed altogether. There are many other examples. So this is not a problem, because in your own video you're trying to interpret passages of scriptures to your liking, independent of they literal meaning of words. 9. You say that the Bible shows a way to differentiate false prophets to real prophets but didn't say what that method is. Could you elaborate on that? You went on on just saying how latter-day saints are terrible for trying to interpret the word of God and not taking everything literally. We do study the Bible and, according to non-LDS studies, more than any other Christian denomination. Here it goes. This is just a way to illustrate that indeed there are falsehoods out there and that we can choose to believe in them without real intended investigation. But that's alright. I'm not trying to convince anyone. That's the Holy Ghost's job and I'm thankful for that. However, on the last day, we'll be held accountable for the effort of lack thereof of seeking for truth, like in the parable of the woman who searched for the pearl of great price. She sold all she had to obtain it for she saw it as the most precious thing in the world (the truth).
The men you call prophets are NOT! Why else would they buy documents that they believed to be true from a counterfeiter and forger if they had the power of God with them. That's just common sense, and I don't need the Holy Ghost to confirm that to me.
@@MamallamaLindayou still have not answers those pertinent questions. i have another question, why did jacob who was the father of joseph not know that his sons were lying when they told him that joseph was devoured by beast? he was a prophet, was he not?
You have to judge the book by what it says and not by what you want it to say. Some history, in 1829 Joseph and Oliver are told by the Lord, "other records have I, that I will give unto you..." so they were anticipating something more to be given to them. On July 3rd of 1835 Joseph purchased the scrolls and they had to have been translated within weeks because the word Shinehah shows up in a heading in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants published by Aug 17th. However the Book of Abraham isn't published until 1842 and canonized in 1880. Whoever edited these scrolls wrote in verse 14 "That you may have an understanding of these gods, I have given you the fashion of them in the figures at the beginning..…" These types of scrolls were mass produced by scribes, it was a whole industry. Each person would buy different section like the Book of the Dead and glue them together, they found one that is 52 ft long. Then the owner would tell his scribe what he wanted in the picture of the embalming room. Joseph had 4 scrolls, Oliver Cowdery described the scroll which contained the Book of Abraham as having black and red ink. Another non Mormon described seeing a walking snake but nothing matches what she described. It's obvious that we don't have the portion of a very long scroll which contained the Book of Abraham. Also the picture of the embalming room was not done by a professional scribe, the original is to crudely done. from Abraham 3 2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; 10 And it is given unto thee to know the set time of all the stars that are set to give light, until thou come near unto the throne of God.... 13And he said unto me: This is Shinehah, which is the sun." "Beginning around 2350 BC, “the walls of the inner chambers and corridors of ancient Egyptian pyramids were inscribed with a series of ritual and magical spells” known today as the Pyramid Texts. “These inscriptions constitute the oldest body of Egyptian religious writings,” and were later copied “on tombs, sarcophagi, coffins, canopic chests, papyri, stelae, and other funerary monuments of nonroyal Egyptians." These were not translated until 1952 The information was meant to help guide the dead person on journey following the path of the sun through the "celestial canal or waterway that bisected the sky into northern and southern hemispheres." The dead were being guide through this celestial waterway of stars to the afterlife as a glorified spirit. This appears to be what the first part of chapter 3 is about, by following the stars until the dead person reached Kolob which is greatest of all. Some have looked at this and see a corresponding likeness to our own temple worship, where we move through the Telestial to the Terrestrial and then reaching the Celestial. In chapter 1 it says the Pharaohs tried to copy the order which was in the beginning with Adam. The word Shinehah has been found in the Pyramid text dating to the Middle Kingdom, 2040-1782 BC, thus in Abraham’s day. The word meant the sun’s ecliptic.
"You have to judge the book by what it says and not by what you want it to say." Not if it's in a language you think no one knows, and you have seer stones and magic spectacles. With Urim and Thummim you absolutely can make a text say anything you want.
Mayor fall in reasoning quality @14:40. Before that, the video actually deals with objective facts relevant to The Book of Abraham. After, it's "a rot in the bones of the LDS church," which this creator feels based on his own faith. The history of Smith trying to translate the Egyptian before he was much aware of the Rosetta Stone, versus what what actual scholars learned later, is reasonably objective. The claim that the Bible gives us objective tests -- of which this creator names zero -- is just apologetic codswallop we've heard over and over before.
“The history of smith trying to translate the Egyptian…versus what actual scholars learned later is reasonably objective.” What does that even mean? The history is objective? You mean we can trust Joseph was right bc he had no reason to lie or something? Vs the scholars now?
@@vintifada7115 Ah, sorry I was not clear. I was not trying to say that Mormon mythohistory is anything like objective. I was saying that this video for several minutes before @14:40 was reasonably objective. Watching it again, in the first minute the video gave fair warning of our host's faith-based position, so no surprise in the well-foreshadowed fall in reasoning quality.
@@brygenon Uh ok. Well you’re Mormon apparently so I’m not surprised at your fail at objective reasoning 🤷🏼♂️ The Bible for you Mormons is also supposed to be sacred scripture and yet you’re rejecting it’s own claims to sidestep your own issues and attack so in a way you’re just all over the place trying to cope
I was very much part of Mormonism from the early 1980's ~ 2000's. I remember all the teachings we were given back then, with pictures showing Smith "translating" the golden plates at a table with the scribe on the other side, usually with a cloth hanging between them. How interesting that this was completely changed after the internet became more main stream from what most of us were shown and taught, to the "revised" version of Smith looking into a hat, and a picture of the "golden plates" near by, with a scribe in the scene as well. It's so incredibly deceptive, as the LDS leadership continues to live in darkness and I believe some of them know they are peddling a false religion, but are not brave enough to set aside their pride and allow God to open their eyes. Jesus warned us that "many are called but few are chosen" and we were also warned how many would come before the Lord on the day of judgement, proclaiming to have done all sorts of things in Jesus name, only to hear those words "depart from me, I never knew you". When we have a false theology, when you believe in a different Jesus, then you are condemning yourself to eternal separation from God in the end. Jesus warned us, and his disciples warned us of these very things we see in Mormonism. This isn't to say there are other false gospels being taught, such as JW's and Roman Catholicism, then we look at Islam, Buddhists, and so on. When we walk away from the Bible and believe that it was somehow "corrupted" without validating the "proof" for yourself and testing everything said against the Bible, you open yourself up to believing in false doctrine which Paul warned us would happen to some. I can only imagine how many of the LDS faith are in hell today, wishing they had headed the warnings of Jesus, wishing they would have applied the tests of a prophet that God gives us in the Bible, but it is too late now =(
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
You don’t make logical sense. You say Catholics teach false gospel but then you say you must test the Bible to see if it’s true and dont throw away the Bible. Like you do realize that Catholics made the Bible right? The dying Roman Empire. Also the Dead Sea scrolls some say support the Bible. Well they were like made in 200 ad. You need actual evidence from Christs time. Remember the dying Roman Empire used Christianity to remain In control but it also means they did book burnings and killed gnostic Christian’s etc.
@@koltoncrane3099 Did you know that a lot of the papyrus that was thought to have been lost in the Chicago fire were found in the 1960’s. The church was initially excited about the find but it was a bitter disappointment when it proved that Joseph couldn’t translate anything. And they suppressed that since 1967. Growing up I was always taught it was a translation, instead it’s a work of fiction.
funny how the early church heretics were all the surviving 70 disciples and their children, and the bishop of rome decided he was most important and had epiphanius go out and claim ALL the other Christians were conveniently killing babies for the eucharist lol and then the church that was built on their bodies was a literal 2000 year old pedophile cult. funny that the "heretics" book was church doctrine 200 years before the bible was even compiles 😂😂😂
i mean if it wasnt the first 700 years of killing political enemies, paying for the papacy, bishops nephews, popes and bishops, popes literally having orgies with prostitutes in the bascilica (all accepted by the church, who decided hundreds of years later these were actual antipopes or just corrupt, but the whole church was so corrupt they didnt even a single random bishop to point to say "actually, he was a good guy, so he must have been the real pope"), its the past 1300 years of hundreds of acts of pedophilia each year, each time covered up by the church. the church has literally excommunicated thousands of people just for telling the truth about what the church did to them. you know the catholic church was around before christ was born? it was an organization setup by augustus to find a single religion for the entire roman empire. at first they favored bacchic mysteries and mythraic cults, but they saw how the real christians werent afraid to die, so they hired the biggest thugs to take over christianity. you know st peter walked around with a wand and claimed to be a magician? the first 2 hundred years of his portraits, he has a wand in his hand, and the original text of his battle with simon magis says that when simon started to float, he waved his wand - not prayed - and sent simon flying into the earth. he was literally practicing witch craft, and his successor sided with the roman's and allowed the militarization of the Christian faith, at the expense of those unfortunate few that believed the church was actually Christian community, turned on them, called them Heretics and claimed THEY were the ones doing witchcraft and every crazy, disgusting thing you could libel someone with. you know the only people who when theyre s.a.'ed the most likely culprit isnt their own family? (about 92% of all sexual assault against children is by their own family or a close friend of the family) nuns. nuns, for decades, were most likely to be sexually assaulted by priests! i mean, the pedophillia in the catholic church goes as far back as the publics been allowed vatican records! and you're just gunna believe them about their accounts of heresy?
Well, ABSOLUTELY! But you'd be hard-pressed to find an LDS person who knows a fig about Gnosticism, Platonism, or the teachings of Cerinthus, or the teachings of Arius, etc. (Shoot-most evangelical Christians don't have a clue about this either.) The LDS church & the Jehovah's Witnesses are basically re-treads of these old heresies & pagan philosophies, but because they (a) don't study the truth of the Bible, and (b) they don't study history, they are easy prey for this kind of spiritual deception. They call the orthodox church "apostate" without even knowing what the church believed back in the era of the Apostles, Church Fathers, etc.
As a current Mormon who is “soul searching”, educating myself on ALL viewpoints (“good” and “bad”) of Mormonism, all while meditating, praying and researching philosophy, theology and religious history, I am starting to believe that the LDS church might not be “true”. I’m left in the same shoes that Joseph Smith was when he asked “which of all the churches is the true church?” You mention at the end of your video that if Smith wasn’t a prophet, then the Great Apostasy didn’t happen, hence there’s no need for a “Restoration”, but would that mean then that the Catholic Church is the “correct” or “true” church of God? Or the Eastern Orthodox? What about any of the Protestants? The church of Ethiopia? I have researched them and find issues with those as well. No Christian church has a pretty history, and it seems like every one has some sort of variation from what Jesus actually did and taught. For example, Catholics don’t baptize by immersion, but Jesus was indeed baptized by being immersed. Thus, if all I need is “the Bible” to “save” me, then how do I follow Jesus? Who should baptize me? Who has that authority?
No authority is required to baptize someone. As to discounting churches because they might have something wrong… I would start with identifying what is the central message of the Gospel as outlined in the Bible, and then what are other teachings that cannot be compromised on. These are the things you’ll want to prioritize when looking for a church. I’ve personally found it helpful to remember the three D’s: Die, Defend, Discuss There are teachings we do not compromise on. This is the hill we die on. Then there are teachings we debate / defend because they have important implications. We may not discount another’s faith over them, but we may want to attend a church where we can most align on these issues. Then there are issues we discuss and over which we can have undeterred fellowship with our fellow Christians.
In the original Greek, church was "ekklesia", which means "called out body/assembly". It is not about a mortal institution. God is the authority. At Christ's crucifixion, the veil in the temple was torn, which symbolises that the distance between believers and God was removed by His once and for all sacrifice for sin, making us right with God, and giving us a new identity in Christ. We can "boldly approach the throne of grace" because we are in Christ, without having to continually offer sacrifices and adhere to the Law -- and all the Law and Prophets were always pointing towards Christ's coming sacrifice, and deeds of the Law didn't have power on their own, in any case (Heb 10:4). Christ is our eternal High Priest, and in Him, old things are done away and all things are made new, and believers also will be made new, once they believe and are born again. The Law was perfectly fulfilled by His finished work, and now, all any person has to do to receive salvation is to believe in Christ. Believe that, as the Bible records, He said "I AM", identifying Himself as the un-created, eternal God, which made the self-righteous religious people of the time, trusting in their own institutions, authority, and perceived "goodness", want to stone Him for what they thought to be "blasphemy". Believe, as the Bible records, He said "the gates of hell will not prevail against his church" (assembly of believers called out of the world). Believe that He said on the cross, "tetelestai / "it is finished / paid in full". Believe that He said to believe in Him and we would have eternal life. John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." Eph 2: 8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Romans 11:6, “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 4:3-5, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." 2 Cor: 3-4, "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." Gal 1: 6-9, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." If you read the Bible believing that God is greater than His Creation, and therefore, is able to preserve His word so men could know Him and be saved, then all of these uncertainties and worries will be resolved. He promised He would preserve His word. Matthew 24:35, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” He loves us so much that He made salvation so simple, that a small child can understand it, or a foreigner without much second language ability. The eternal God left His throne in heaven, took flesh upon Him, being born as a man, living a sinless life, and then shedding His blood on the cross as a once and for all sacrifice for sin. He rose on the third day, and his finished work has conquered sin and death. He said "it is finished". All we have to do is believe Him, and receive of His abounding grace and love, and be saved. The Book of Mormon claims that "many plain and precious things were lost out of the Bible." But the plainest and most precious thing is this simple gospel of grace. Satan tempted Eve with the same thing that caused his fall -- pride. He wished to elevate himself above the skies and exalt himself as his own god. Satan's pride, and his lie in the Garden, is now the same false gospel the the LDS religion teaches -- the LDS doctrine of exaltation. Isaiah 46:9, “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,” Isaiah 44: 8 "[...]Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Ecclesiastes 7:20, “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" 1 John 1:8, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Isaiah 64:6, “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” Mark 10:18, “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.” Only God is good. That is why we need His righteousness. We can receive it imputed to us, by grace through faith, by believing in Christ's finished work. This is the only way to be saved. Romans 3:20, 28, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” & "28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." The LDS religion adds so many requirements. It takes men from "the simplicity that is in Christ". It also alters the identity of Christ. If you are hungering for truth and to seek God, then the best thing you can do is read the Bible with the mind of a child. Without using any external sources to interpret or alter the words there, read what you find. The bottom line is: will you believe in a God who is Almighty and is able to preserve His word so that men might know Him, or will you believe a man's word, 1800 years later, saying that God failed in the promises recorded in the Bible (that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, and God's words will never pass away)? Will you believe Jesus Christ, or Joseph Smith? Will be praying for you 🙏
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
the dead scrolls arent the oldest old testament scripts, theyre the oldest COMPLETE collection if books from the old testament. we have plenty of other fragments, most of them seeming to be originally in Greek, as Hebrew was like Latin - it was mostly liturgical, and Greek was the lingua franco of the region for a long, long time
Very succinct. Even though we didn’t learn about the recovery of the manuscript, I remember looking at these drawings in LDS seminary and just thinking, yeah, I get why people thought this was a little too convenient. It was really JS’s polygamy that put me in a major faith crisis that year, the the Egyptian funeral texts did not help. Especially since I’d read quite a bit about the Rosetta Stone by that point, so all kinds of alarm bells were going off.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
Ya Joseph’s polygamy definitely turns off a lot of people. Listen to Jordon Maxwell and how he’s read that Babylonian Talmud says the Jews believe child marriage is fine. I think they said some Parts of Islam does similar things. Then ya got the Jewish kaballah saying there’s 23 gods with one big god.
Oh anyways I was going to say do you support Abraham or Isaac or Jacob whoever doing polygamy in the Bible? I remember seeing lots of people leave Mormonism but then remain a Bible thumper. It’s like if you believe in the Bible you’re also supporting polygamy basically. Heck Jacob married sisters I believe. God killed Judah’s two sons for not consummating their marriage to their sister in law and then Judah did the deed. Like there’s messed up polygamy in the Bible too. It’s why I find it weird people leave Mormonism but then promote polygamy by promoting the Bible.
@@koltoncrane3099 well, that’s the Old Testament. Not the New Testament. If polygamy was necessary to living a Christian life, one wonders why Jesus never mentioned it. I’m not terribly religious and I don’t really go in for Biblical literalism, but I do think it’s important to see the hypocrisy for what it is with regard to JS. Just a con man who wanted power, money and women.
The Book of Mormon itself is a book given through revelation. Often times Joseph Smith would look into a hat and the words would appear with the golden plates only being near him at the time. In truth many Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint practices are done in a similar way. Baptism is simply a symbolic representation of washing away sins, the sacrament is a symbolic representation of taking of the body and blood of Christ. The concreted olive oil is also a representing. In fact the Church states that when giving a blessing of the sick and afflicted oil is not needed but preferred. All these things from the bread and water, to baptism to the oil and even the hat Joseph Smith used are simply methods or tools used to help our faith and revelation from God.
I can't tell if you are being facetious or you just don't realize how crazy what you just wrote is. (But just in case it's the latter: folks, this is NOT how God works.)
Okay well if you're using this, then you're going to think you won, but didn't. They won't care. I've seen both sides of this, and the church of Jesus Christ has a very good position still on the book of Abraham. And and even stronger passion on the book of Enoch. GLM lives here in Utah and is just trying to get money for his church.
@@clearstonewindowsare you able to provide the very good position the church has on the BoA? I see where GLM provides screenshots with what appear to be from the official church website on here, curious if you are referring to a completely different explanation.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed. I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church. Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
“… with God all things are possible.” - Matthew 19:26 “…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” - Judges 1:19
@@codeman966 Sure, it doesn't mean he had to help them at conquering whatever they wanted. In the tora God says that the conquest will happen gradually
I’m a 24 year old living in Utah but grew up mormon in VA. My parents raised me mormon, made me serve a mission, I even ended up getting sealed in the temple. When I started asking questions and learning the true history of who Joseph Smith actually was and what he actually taught. I realized the church was not the church I thought it was when I was a younger. Since that realization I’ve decided I’m gonna raise my family mormon too ;)
ruclips.net/video/hxPzpbJnyKk/видео.html * That link is to a different qualified scholars interpretation on RUclips video based on new discoveries in Egypt. We need to be objective and fair by considering new modern discoveries in Egypt that seem to give credence to what Smith claimed and that shows past Egyptologists did not have a full understanding. We need to be honest and not bias and prejudice, unlike woke political new journalists who have an agenda.
@@jessehill8623 your post doesnt make sense - or was it a typo. You said you realized it wasnt the church you thought it to be and then said you were going to raise your family as mormons? Did you really mean that?
I was raised Mormon in Utah. I have never felt the "spirit," even as a young impressionable 8 year old. Of course, I was baptized to please my parents. You should understand that the absence of these special feelings have caused me to dig deeper into the history of the church, and then apply the same measuring stick to the other religions. I am an atheist now. My favorite verse from the LDS scriptures come from The Articles of Faith, verse 11.
You will never find truth or true church history from inside the mormon corporation. They whitwash the history they didn't like and call it "anti-mormon propaganda." There is a reason mormons have to recite "I know the church is true..." literally all the time. If you repeat it enough you will start to believe it. By the way, have you shopped at the City Creek Mall in SLC that your tithing dollars paid for?
I did not leave the mormon church because of this issue but in hindsight, it just made me laugh to find out how much garbage this was. Absolutely ridiculous. Even into my late 30's in the mormon church I had never heard that the original papyrus existed. It was certainly never mentioned by any family, in any church setting, "seminary", or Sunday school class. I attended some private study classes with some very "educated" guest speakers who covered this subject but did not mention what I would later find out were commonly known issues with this "translation". I'm also old enough to remember alot of what was taught in the LDS world that seems to have, uh, not remained popular. The good old days of having your "calling and election made sure" are not a thing so much.
18:27 thats so true. Mormons think that if you leave the church you're leaving Jesus our turning away from God. If you are saved through Jesus and have entered into His body, also called the church, just because you decide to leave the lies doesn’t mean you're leaving the Truth.
Thanks for your view on this. Let's address some of the issues with these arguments. The manuscripts The manuscript that was found is only 13% of what Joseph Smith originally had. With the discovery of dozens of examples of Egyptian priests being buried with a variety of texts written one after the other on the same scroll, it is not just feasible but likely that Joseph Smith possessed scrolls with Book of the Dead (and other) texts ALONG WITH records. This is common. The supposed age of the papyrus is also not an issue. While his words may be interpreted that way, careful analysis of what Joseph said reveals that he never claimed to have the exact papyrus that Abraham wrote on, only that the words were “written by his (Abraham's) own hand, upon papyrus.” It is possible that Joseph had a copy of Abraham's writing. Even if he did claim this, prophets have made minor mistakes such as this even in the Bible. The only perfect life was Jesus, and He works through imperfect servants. The translation With the manuscript issue out of the way (likely that Joseph translated the written portions of the record from manuscripts we do not have) this leads us to the argument of incorrect translation of the facsimiles. Careful study of the facsimiles reveals that not only did Joseph correctly translate most of what it meant, he actually extracted deeper meaning and context than a literal translation of the facsimiles. For example, Joseph Smith defined Fig.6 in Facsimile No.2, as the "earth in its four quarters." Critics try to cover up his correct translation by arguing that Fig.6 instead represents the four canopic jars, which symbolize the four sons of Horus. Research beyond such a superficial explanation reveals that those four sons of Horus represented the four quarters of the earth. There are a myriad of other examples of this throughout the facsimiles. My point is, if you are looking for a reason to leave the church, you can find it by listening to people who mislead and lie. If you are intellectually honest with yourself, you will not find a doctrinal reason to leave the church. You can look at both sides of an issue and come out with greater truth. That is why I watched this video (and found it deeply lacking.) Thank you for helping me learn though and I appreciate the care and love you have. God bless you
Quick response - (I combined a couple other responses I made down below) Agreed that some papyrus bits were lost. But - why do the first few rows characters from the extant papyrus match perfectly with the lines from Joseph's Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar - along with references to Abraham and translational notes for the Book of Abraham? (Worth noting that this particular papyrus fragment is also immediately adjacent to the fragment containing Facsimile #1) By the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, it seems we have total proof that Joseph was looking at certain specific characters on papyri that we have, and getting incorrect "translations" of them. The fact that we don’t have all of the bits that Joseph had doesn't change the essential issue - what we DO have, the extant part of the manuscript that Joseph used - has nothing to do with Abraham or Joseph (or Enoch). If Abraham really wrote this "by his own hand, upon papyrus" as Joseph claimed (to compound the issue-see also my notes about Joseph claiming that this was the “handwriting of Abraham,” the “autograph of Moses,” and other lines be written by “his brother Aaron”) then we should see some reference to any of their works there-especially given Joseph’s use of these particular characters in the Grammar and Alphabet. Why would Abraham write down parts of the "Book of Breathing" and "Book of the Dead"? I am a Christian - so I absolutely believe in miracles and prophets...I just also think that the provided evidence shows that Joseph fails the test for being a legitimate prophet.
@GLM Thanks for the reply. 1st point If this is true (I'll need to see a source. Sorry if it is in the video, I can't rewatch it right now) Joseph Smith had the entire collection of Papyri together when he purchased them (obviously). The copy of characters from one fragment on the same page of notes from another fragment seems pretty normal to me and definitely not evidence that the papyrus we have is the papyrus the Book of Abraham was on. 2nd and 3rd point Egyptian priests of the time were often buried with a variety of different texts all written on the same papyrus roll, one after the other (For example, a fragmentary eighteenth-dynasty Book of the Dead in Cairo [JE 95575] contains account texts on the front side [recto]. Papyrus Vandier also has a Book of the Dead on the verso [back side] but on the recto contains the story of Meryre who [as in the Book of Abraham] was sacrificed on an altar, these are 2 of dozens and dozens of examples). This would explain the common burial practices of putting in the book of the dead and book of breathings. But it doesn’t mean that these were the only books included, because we only have 13% of the papyrus that Joseph Smith owned. That means that over 3/4 of the original papyrus is missing. Which gives plenty of evidence that there were other writings on the papyrus rolls.
“This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.” - Genesis 17:10 “…if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” - Galatians 5:2 Hmm, contradicting.
@@BNichols021 I have seen the video and gave a confusion answer that was not clear. So then the bible is not perfect if it's not crystal clear on what is truth. I have as much authority to interpret the bible as I see as does GLM does
This isn’t a contradiction at all actually. Those of the covenant were circumcised as a manifestation of that fact. But being in the covenant or being circumcised never saved anyone even in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, those of the covenant are commanded to be baptized, but baptism doesn’t save us at all. There’s never been a contradiction here and it’s actually pretty simple.
@@codeman966 "I have as much authority to interpret the bible as I see as does GLM does" Exactly! Without prophets and apostles, you have the same exact authority to interpret as anyone!
As there are those called to witness of Christ on the streets, some in muslim countries, and some in their neighborhood or on the internet - so there are some called to fellowship with Mormons and love them and witness of Jesus Christ in church with them. This is a difficult calling in some ways, but a joy in others.
I don't know anyone else who fellowships with LDS people because they want to present a loving witness to them. I have often wondered if I'm maybe doing something "over the line" by going to their churches, etc. It's nice to hear: this is an actual "category" of evangelism. I'm encouraged to not be alone in this. Thank you!
@@Daniel_McD Great success, much fruit, and God's Blessings in your witness of the Good News of God's Grace, His Gift of His Son, His forgiveness, and His incomprehensible Love! Perhaps one day I'll hear your story.
Great video - there are a couple of typos in the CC that you might want to fix. Also, towards the end, you describe why the subjective aspects of belief and personal experience undermine the integrity of LDS faith, then in your next sentence you say “in my experience…” which I found funny. You might want to edit that to say something like “I have observed…” instead. Really good stuff, though, which I plan to promote to my Comparative Religion students.
I have always had an issue with the book of Abraham, I have called it BS. As the papyrus has been proven to not be what Smith said it was. It definitely is a thorn in the church’s butt. I have attempted to read it but I can’t, unfortunately it plays a big part in going through the temple. It will never go away as it would destroy the whole meaning of the temple. So the church has to defend it no matter what.
You misspelled "profit." He was a convicted conman and a pedophile who raped 14 year old girls and took over 40 wives. Open your eyes. You will never find truth inside the billion-dollar mormon corporation, regardless how many times you try to convince yourself by repeating "I know this is true because...." I don't blame you, I know how hard it is to leave. I do hope you find truth and peace one day.
In what way??? LDS people never qualify this statement! What about him was "true"? He had 34 wives. Over 1/3 of them were teenage girls-some as young as 14 or 15. He told girls they could get their families to heaven by agreeing to marry him. If anything was true about him, its that he was: a womanizer, an adulterer, and sexual predator who had learned to groom girls & their families. He used his "office" to take advantage of others who had put their trust in him. I'm still waiting for his prophecy about the "Great Lamanite Reversal" to come true! (3 Nephi 20) He found a way to get everyone's money-either from his bank or his mandatory tithes-and he still got other people to pay for the acquisition of these papyrii! And he figured out how to get everyone who followed him to put him at the top of everything. In spite of the fact that (as William Law stated): "We know for a fact that he broke 7 of the 10 commandments." By 1844 he got himself ordained as: "King of the Earth", "a god to this generation" who "presides over the Spirit World". Anybody who disagreed was bullied into submission or bounced from the church & labeled "apostate"-no matter how high up they went in the hierarchy. I don't know by what qualities you recognize "a true prophet", but I can tell you there are 4 big ones that define a false prophet: (1) desire for pre-eminence, (2) desire for the attentions/affections of the opposite sex, (3) desire for gain/wealth, and (4) a false prophecy.
The “matching” images you compare to show sarcophagi while facsimile 1 is showing the sacrifice of a live person. Faith isn’t supposed to be physically testable. That’s why it’s faith. Have you read the Book of Mormon? It’s nice of you to want to help the Mormon church. The church seems to be doing fine, growing.
Young man, you have done a good job of refuting the Book of Abraham. I also have read and studied it. I appreciate your integrity and the candor in your effort. And I believe what you have said here. Do you think that you can refute the Bible just as you have done the Book of Abraham, with integrity and candor, using historical and literary facts? As a former professor of the Old and New Testaments, today, I feel about the Bible as you do the the Book of Abraham. My present understanding is that both books are works of men trying to control what other men think and say and believe about gods. I accept neither of them as inspired work. It appears to me that you have the makings of a scholar. You may have to learn to be a bit more willing to start your higher education by a willingness use the scientific method as you make your arguments: can I prove my assumption? Can I disprove my assumption? Is there evidence in my world to make or refute my argument? Any argument that requires a supernatural explication, is beyond your world and cannot be proven true or false. Whenever someone makes a declarative statement that you are not sure about, always ask that some one, "How do you know that?" That question will be your first step to becoming a critical thinker, my friend
Excellent video! You showed the claims that the LDS church makes today and how it contradicts the BOA, therefore making the claims redundant. I also *love* how you explained at the end that many LDS justify the church by personal experiences through prayer, revelation, miracles, etc. I’ve seen someone do *exactly that* on a channel called Missionary Universe. Props to u
Better to leave sooner than later. This video is exactly the reason I left. Proof beyond a shadow of doubt the prophet JS was a false prophet and had no first vision and the rock in the hat to "translate " is icing on the cake.
I'm sorry but you're mistaken. Most LDS people continue to revere Joseph Smith and are not overly critical of the Book of Abraham or it's origins. Most members assume that Joseph Smith experienced a variety of spiritual encounters which are not all recorded. Indeed, as the Prophet of the Last Dispensation, we assume that Joseph had personal knowledge and devine contact with the Lord's prophets of antiquity and many others, some of which are recorded in the D&C and History of the Church. So sorry to disappoint you, but most "Mormons" are not shaken by existing fragments of a set of lost scrolls, especially those who have taken the time to research the question for themselves. It's a subject I've never heard raised in Church. You're suffering from a case of wishful thinking. Believe me, any increase in apostasy in the "Mormon" Church is caused by the same reasons it's happening among Evangelical Christians..
This is the most desperate, sad, and brainwashed response ever written. But, it’s good you are here to hear the truth. Keep listening, keep searching, and good luck to you on your deconstruction from the Mormon faith.
This is simple logic. If these are indeed the papyri that Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Abraham from-and the LDS church affirms that they are-and Joseph said that they were written in the handwriting of Abraham himself, yet Egyptologists all concur that the text on these manuscripts has absolutely nothing to do with Abraham but are instead a common pagan funerary text that they've seen many times before, then you are left with only two conclusions: Joseph Smith either (A) knowingly perpetrated fraud, or (B) was deluded into believing that he could actually read it. He was either a liar or a lunatic. There isn't a third choice. Either way, God told us in the Bible that a prophet doesn't get second chances. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and 18:20-22 are very clear that if a prophet makes ONE mistake, they are false. Period. And in the New Testament we are also commanded multiple times to put prophets to the TEST, not blindly revere them and follow what they tell us.
@mikespage0123 I'm sorry if the truth is painful for you to hear, but he numbers of converts around the world, continues to grow. There are currently fifty-two new temples under construction right now and another ninety-seven, which have been announced. The LDS Church currently has 345 temples in over 160 different countries, speaking more than 178 different languages. The Book of Mormon has been translated into at least 113 languages. Whatever you're witnessing is only your point of view and far from the whole picture.
Right, he didn’t translate anything - just made it all up or weaved a bunch of plagiarized works together. You can tell because 1769 KJV Bible characteristics are duplicated in the BoM among other comparisons to early 1800 literary works.
@@CourtMcMullin But that doesn't change the essential issue - what we DO have, the extant part of the manuscript that Joseph used - has nothing to do with Abraham or Joseph (or Enoch). If Abraham really wrote this "by his own hand, upon papyrus" as Joseph claimed, then we should see some reference to something there. Why would Abraham write *by his own hand* parts of the "Book of Breathing" and "Book of the Dead"? I am a Christian - so I absolutely believe in miracles and prophets...I just also think that the provided evidence shows that Joseph fails the test for being a legitimate prophet.
You quickly list a few concepts found in the text of the Book of Abraham. But you did not discuss any of them, nor express why they are objectionable. Very weak analysis.
Yes, the point of the video wasn't to evaluate the content of the BoA, but explain the controversy with the papyri. I hope to do another video soon where I deal more in depth with the controversial content - that just wasn't the point of *this* video.
You packaged the video so nicely most won't see your lie of omission. There were two scrolls one 18ft and the other 20ft. The entire thing was not returned to the church and translated only10 scraps. And you don't tell your viewers that a version of Egyptian lion couch scene with Abraham's name on it has been found.
Everything you said here is true. However, while Protestant Evangelicalism is undeniably in a better position than Mormonism, by and large holding to the Trinity and other biblical doctrines more faithfully, it all shares some of the same weaknesses. For example, it in effect requires belief in a Great Apostasy. That the Church feel away until being gradually restored starting at the Reformation and continuing through the present. In reality, however, the Church has continued to exist and teach the apostolic faith since the beginning. The Orthodox Church never went anywhere.
Working on a video right now that deals with why I don't believe in a "Great Apostasy" as a Protestant - and why I don't think that's contradictory. Forthcoming!
I like everything you say here, I grew up Mormon and served a full mission, but as I studied I came to realize the surface level information I'd been taught my whole life was only that surface level and false. Learning logic and reason and understanding fallacy helped me determine facts. However, you make a claim that the Bible has objective facts and that I challenge you on. It has the same kind of flaws and is subjective. Like you said in your video we don't even have signatures and don't know who actually wrote it. The stories are copied from other stories so it's not even first-hand accounts. Even first hand testimony is really poor evidence, so I challenge you to use the same logic and reason and not accept the Bible as miraculous. It's just some stories that we can't confirm.
I applaud you! Wow. You’re super rare to leave Mormonism using logic but then you don’t become a Bible thumper cause you continue to use logic and question the Bible just like people do Mormonism. Yes even the Dead Sea scrolls were like written 200 ad way after Christ died. Even the calendar putting Christ at year zero the calendar was made in like 527 ad by the Catholics. Ya it’s so funny. People be like Joseph couldn’t have found the gold plates and just ran with them it’s to heavy. But those same people be like ya Moses departed the waters of the Red Sea and had curses happen on Egypt. Haha so funny.
It’s like if you call Moses a magician for turning his stick into a snake people be like no he’s a prophet so it’s okay but its witch craft if anyone else does it.
As a translator, I wonder how Abraham could write such a document in Egyptian characters. I mean, I find difficult sometimes to write in English. I mean, if I had to write a document, I would choose a language that I am acquainted with. Why Abraham would choose to write this document in hieroglyphics? He was from Chaldea, thus, I would have written the document in Chaldean language if I was Abraham.
"I would have written the document in Chaldean language if I was Abraham." In a list of 500 objections; that's down around 497 I think. Why is so much of the bible written in GREEK when none of the disciples (so far as I know) were Greek? I don't know. It is what it is.
This has been far debunked. Joseph translated from LONG scrolls! The manuscripts we have are evidently not the full book Joseph used. I am sorry that you go against our (and more importantly Christ’s) church. But, nonetheless, may God bless you greatly! 😁🙏
Alright... Agreed some papyrus bits were lost. But - why does the characters from the extant papyrus match perfectly with the lines from Joseph's Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar - along with references to Abraham and translational notes for the Book of Abraham? That particular papyrus fragment is also immediately adjacent to Facsimile #1... By the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, we have total proof that Joseph was looking at certain specific characters on papyri that we have, and getting incorrect "translations" of them... Would love to hear your thoughts on that
@@mikespage0123 … deconstruction? I just converted. Anyways I just like to watch videos that critique my ideas so that I can know if they stand to the test. Thank you for your concern. 😁
@@GLM I do agree that Joseph claimed to have used the fragment or at least a copy of the same document. However I also know that our God is (though many suggest otherwise lol) what I believe to be an accommodating God! For example He allowed Joseph to use seer stones he already had. So as for the facsimile I believe that God showed Joseph new meanings that could be drawn from the image. This also stands doubly as a test for my faith! In other words will I believe the God pulling me toward Joseph or the men pulling me away? Definitely interesting philosophically assuming Joseph IS a prophet, this can definitely reveal the character of Heavenly Father! 😁🙏
In the 1st Chapter it says this- And it came to pass that the priests laid violence upon me, that they might slay me also, as they did those virgins upon this altar; and that you may have a knowledge of this altar, I will refer you to the representation at the commencement of this record. The record that was included, facsimile 1, has been proven to not correspond at all with what the chapter and Joseph Smith said occurred. So, how can the Book of Abraham be true? It makes no difference how it was translated or if it was long scrolls or pieces of papyrus if it is not true and the facsimile does not correspond at all with the translated text.
Why do I get the feeling that Joseph Smith cut out the missing parts of the image himself? It's a huge coincidence that all the crucial details of the image like Annubis head or the bird over the body just happen to be the missing parts.
@@leocrawfIt may have been burned, but the heads of figures were missing and BroJoe did sketches ‘reconstructing’ the missing parts. I assumed they were lost through age/decay, but the idea of Joe doing it himself is intriguing. I doubt the church will allow any legit scientists and scholars to study it any more.
GLM may just spend their eternity in Heaven trying to prove Mormons wrong. That is their choice, and they will reap the consequences of their actions. They are already reaping the consequences of their actions. They are creating a people that will continue into the eternities trying to prove Mormons wrong....and the cycle continues... Mormons will continue into eternity trying to do what God asks them to do and continuing to learn to love ALL mankind.
That's an interesting view. Are you aware of what Jesus Christ teaches in the book of Luke? Chapter 14:26. Chapter 17:10. John 15:5 will maybe explain to you why you are still "trying". That's not what Jesus has in mind for those he loves. Matthew 11:29-30 is what he has for you, if you'll accept it & forsake your own efforts to obtain his favor. Otherwise, Romans 10:3 applies to you, my friend. I'm not trying to "disprove Mormons". The Bible already does that. I am just trying to get LDS folks to read it and THINK. Nothin' but love for you! I hope you succeed in your goal of being like Jesus. You've got to give up your own efforts first. I am only HIS workmanship, for in my flesh there dwells no good thing. (Ephesians 2:8-10 / Philippians 3:2-11 / Romans 3:20 & 4:5) May the Lamb of God draw you closer through the power of the Holy Spirit.
@@Daniel_McD ok. No offense but you sound a little ridiculous. Are you saying that you do NOT try to be like Jesus? Like, you eat, drink, be merry and sin all you want because Jesus saves you from it all? I am confused. Are you NOT putting any effort into becoming like Jesus, repenting when you do wrong, loving your fellow man, following the 10 commandments etc?
It's sad that a highly educated person does not understand what it means to be a seer. When Joseph translated this document he was simply shown what the original author meant to say. Joseph had no knowledge of ancient languages, and neither did he need knowledge.
Hahaha, a,translator does not make up things that are not translations, a seer must be able to correctly translate, otherwise, he's not a seer. Stop making up excuses for a con artist
There is no precedent for this in all of Christian or Hebrew tradition or writings. The only things remotely similar to this are what the Egyptian & Babylonian magicians did.
I would love to see you do a video about why the Bible talks about the Book of Jasher but it isn't in the Bible. Mainstream Christians just say it wasn't important. Well if the missing scriptures aren't important than why are they in the Bible?
There are several other old religious texts that are not included in The Bible. I don’t remember the details but essentially some group of guys who considered themselves to be lead religious leaders decided which books they wanted “in” the official Book, and which ones to set aside for whatever reasons.
Hello. I am the author of By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus -- a New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri (Institute for Religious Research, Grand Rapids, MI 1992), and I strongly endorse the composition and content of this post. Thank you for using photos and illustrations from my book!
At the time of my writing (1985) there was, of course, no attempt by the LDS church to "officially" explain or respond to the problems the reappearance of the papyri presented. So, since Smith's version didn't fit the actual Egyptian text, they essentially allowed various apologists -- "Defenders of the Faith" -- to present whatever cockamamy explanations they could come up with. In BHOHUP I described eight apologist rationalizations that were eventually offered. From the most orthodox to the most desperate, they are:
1) The "Hidden Meaning" theory
2) The "Mnemonic Device" theory
3) The "Any Egyptian Connection" theory
4) The "The Scribes Did It" theory
5) The "Missing Black and Red Scroll" theory
6) The "Mistaken Identity" theory
7) The "Catalyst" theory
8) The "Nobody Really Understands Egyptian Anyway" theory.
The poor questioning, distraught Mormon would first be offered the least radical version, and if that didn't reassure them in the Faith, they would be moved on to the next, and so on. The idea wasn't to ever provide a definitive answer, just to find whatever level would satisfy the person enough to allow them to remain faithful in the LDS church.
Interestingly, every one of the eight rationalizations are still used (in one form or another) to this day, and NOT ONE NEW explanation has ever come forth in the 40 years since I first described them.
May God bless you all,
Charles M. Larson (Yes, I am still alive.)
Thank you for all the work you put into that book - It's a tremendous resource!
Of course, there's the obvious explanation, Joseph Smith was a con artist and liar.
The lack of updates to these theories does not equate to a lack of worth. They each have their own evidence and flaws, but since we don't have most of the papyri, any speculation as to what papyri Joseph used and how will remain theory. That's the reason why the church says it's spiritual contents is more important to proving its worth than it's origin. Besides, what Joseph did get right is too shocking to just dismiss the whole thing as a sham.
Your book drove that last nail in the coffin for me.
@@uggmonster8795 Sounds exactly like what my old friend Hugh Nibley used to say back in the day, when he frankly admitted all he was doing with his "Improvement Era" articles was just "skirmishing and sparring for time" as the entire BofA narrative collapsed around him. Hugh may have enjoyed BS-ing everyone, but fortunately Joseph Smith left a very unambiguous record of precisely what he wanted others to believe about what he said he was doing, what he said he was doing it with, and how what he did resulted in what the LDS church has been left with. And there is no "speculation" involved in any of that.
But then, there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Well said! One other problem I have with the book of Abraham is that, if Abraham really wrote it "while he was in Egypt", he wasn't Abraham quite yet. He was still Abram. God doesn't give him the name of Abraham until he reaches the land of Canaan decades later. This should be the Book of Abram and it should read, "I, Abram, saw that it was..." and so on.
No one seems to talk about this issue and I've never heard of any response to this problem from the LDS church. Seems like a big mistake on Joseph's part to me.
That didn't even occur to me! Woah! Great point!
ohh good point, I wasn't thinking about that but yes, that makes sense!
Yeah that's a pretty big anachronism. Yikes.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
@@koltoncrane3099 Spam, spam, spam, spam, wonderful spam, wonderful spam!
About 13 years ago when I first started learning about Mormonism, I emailed an Egyptologist a picture of the BOA images asking if he could translate it, not telling him where the pictures were from. He responded that these were “standard book of the dead” texts.
Well obviously, everyone with a brain knows that. Please tell me about what you've read about the semitic readaptation of these facsimiles?
@@devinhildebrandt2709Are you saying LDS leaders did not have a brain for more than 100 years? Because they certainly didn’t know that. Nor did the broader LDS population until the last few decades. I briefly reviewed the Semitic adaptation theory and quite honestly it seems like hogwash to me. And I don’t believe it addresses some of the points made in this video about the claims that the manuscript itself represented the exact words of Abraham, and how Joseph was taking the Egyptian characters themselves to explain how they render the English translation we have today. It’s a total fraud and I really don’t see any way around it.
@@devinhildebrandt2709are you saying that LDS leaders did not have a brain for 100 years? Because they clearly did not know. Nor did the broader LDS community until the last few decades. As far as the Semitic adaptation theory, I’ve briefly read over it and honestly it seems like grasping at straws, to me. Nor does it seem to answer some of the key points noted in this video, such as the fact that Joseph was using the Egyptian characters themselves to show how they yielded the English translation he produced. It’s hard to see how this wasn’t a fraud.
@@BNichols021 that’s not how history works. That’s like saying “well Europeans were stupid because they didn’t know the Americas existed.” Ever since the translation of the Rosetta Stone and Egyptologists have been working on the BoA they have known.
“I’ve briefly read over it….seems like grasping at straws.” Well, clearly you haven’t read much on the complexities of the issues. Since it’s free look up Kevin Barney’s paper on it. And David Bokovoys response to that paper.
Even looking at the characters this video doesn’t actually address what’s going on. Because we actually DONT have the papyri used by Joseph. Antagonists and scholars from are church are nearly 100% unanimous that the BoA doesn’t come from papyri that we have. The papyri missing is massive, but of course this content creator loves to pretend that we do. So even if Joseph tried to translate the characters, we don’t even have what he had. And also the characters he marked were his attempt to translate, however obviously it was received as a revelation, not specifically a translation.
@@devinhildebrandt2709Bro, we have his translation of the facsimiles and we can see how he drew a human head onto what should have been Horus' head. We know he called the hyroglyph of Osiris with a boner, Elohim. We know he says this is a secret word or number when it doesn't say that. We have more than enough to substantiate the fraud charge.
It goes much deeper than the Book of Abraham. The Book of Mormon itself should have been convincing enough for anyone that has any sort of rational thought in their head, that this was a false religion. I think this was part of the reason why the Book of Mormon itself wasn't canonized until 1835; The subdefuge of the Book of Mormon was starting to wear off, so Joseph Smith needed something more tangible to give to those that were failing in their faith to Joseph Smith's new religion. I strongly believe part of the reason for this is because the plates didn't exist to begin with. There's no evidence for the Book of Mormon and there's still remains no evidence for the Book of Mormon, And that's when Justice Smith saw his opportunity after looking at what is now known as facsimile one, and have somehow overlap that in his head with Abraham.
A couple years back I asked the Mormon lady that I rent from if the book of Abraham was true, and she said it was inspired by God. She was unaware that I had already read the account of how Joseph Smith translated the papyri and it wasn't an inspiration from God. Joseph Smith said in his own words that this was from Abraham's own hand and that he was attempting to make an actual translation. He didn't use his peep stone, he didn't use the Urim and Thummim (because they don't exist), so he was trying to squeeze a plausible story from these papyri.
I've read a good portion of the book Abraham and it borders on Satanism. My reasoning for saying this is because in my youth, having dabbled in many different faiths, including witchcraft and Satanism, I see Satan's signature in this. Everything and anything that removes removes, changes, or substitutes God or the son, You might as well be worshiping Satan. When you point out to Mormons that their God is an exalted man who had false and mistakes like we did, but was found towards the end of his life to be worthy to receive godhood, is basically worshiping the image of a man. This is common in witchcraft and Satanism. Those that practice Wicca or witchcraft have the upright pentagram which is a representation of man. Satan worshipers use the inverted and appears as the head of a goat or baphomet, representing our animalistic side. I've seen old pictures of the Mormon temple and it is covered in satanic symbols taken from the Freemasons, including the inverted pentagram. They even had it on the doorknobs, above the doors, and then some of the windows. The all-seeing eye coming out of the clouds, and pillars standing on a crescent moon. It is literally Satanism disguised as Christianity.
Satan rules the physical realm and the church is no exception. Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah witnesses, are all in the same boat. Mormons especially because everything that they hide from the public is fermented in rites, rituals, and ceremonies, in both the initiations of the priesthood and the second anointing. Blood oaths used to be a thing in the Mormon church until the early '90s, prayers repeated like a mantra, secret words given to one another in the sealing ceremonies, couple by secret handshakes and special clothing. Their sacrament is taken with water and leavened bread, even though they say they respect the Mosaic laws and traditions.
The intricities of their beliefs are backwards from the Bible; Jesus was not part of the creation as it says in Scripture, but it was these group of gods that made the heavens of the earth. Their God is not omnipresent because he has a corporeal body. It is his planet that gives him the gift of the all-seeing sight because it's described as one giant Urim and Thummim which allows the Mormon God to see everything. Kind of like a gypsy with their crystal ball.
You should apply that same rational thought equally and realize that ALL region is false!
I'm a 67 y/o fella who was born & raised a mormon I bailed out at around 20 and have since discovered a true relationship with Jesus through the bible, prayer and by associating with fellow Christians. I appreciate the work you guys do at GLM. It is truly baffling that when mormons are confronted with this kind of irrefutable proof that their doctrine is false why they don't just walk away.
Similar story I was 18 when I left the LDS faith and discovered the true Jesus at age 28. I am equally baffled and saddened that LDS members cling so tightly to their feeling in spite of the evidence to the contrary.
Congratulations to both of you for leaving Mormonism and, more importantly, finding faith in Jesus. I agree the BoA seems like a good catalyst for LDS faith deconstruction. Did either of you struggle in transitioning your understanding of the Mormon Godhead versus Christian Trinity doctrines? Or did the air just burst in general for Mormonism and everything deflate all at once?
@@mikespage0123 thanks for asking! well in deconstructing from Mormonism I went headlong into atheism like most ex-Mormons do. I wrongly lumped Christianity into the same box. It wasn’t until a decade later in addiction and discovering dead ends in other belief systems that I came to the real Christ. And yes there was some theology and false understanding that I had for years after being born again that began to purge out. Namely that God the Father has a body.
@@glennjohn3919 yeah, your experience seems normal for the path of someone wearing similar shoes. It may not have felt normal I’m sure. But glad you made it through the wilderness! I imagine a deconstructed Mormon would benefit from some pastoral counseling to straighten out those understandings.
@@mikespage0123 Well once I became aware of how fraudulent mormonism was (around 19-20y/o) I didn't become an atheist I just became apathetic and had an overall distain towards organized religion. It wasn't until age 32when I married a Christian girl that I began the new journey albeit slowly at first.
I remember growing up in the LDS faith and remember always striving but never being certain I was good enough in Gods eyes to make it into the highest degree of glory. Little did i know I could never be good enough, and that’s exactly why Christ died for me! Glory to God that Christ gives us a FREE gift into heaven with the Father that can only be received by faith (Romans 4:5;Gal 2:16;Ephesians 1:13-14)
You just replaced one human written book with another one. You can put your faith in some afterlife that no one has ever seen or you can live the one life that you know you have in the here and now.
@@glennjohn3919 If it's a free gift why did Christ say "few there be that find it?"
Because salvation is free and exaltation (ie eternal life) is not. Evangelicalism conflates the two
If you aren't sure you are going to win the Super Bowl is the best strategy to quit the league!? 🤔
@@HaleStorm49 Good question. Why do few find it? When we look at all religions of the world what do we find? Works-based religions. Just like the Tower of Babel every man in his flesh wants to work their way to heaven. Why? Because men love darkness rather than light (John 1), men are inherently sinful (Ecclesiastes 7:20), they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1), and because of the root of all sin, pride. Men want the glory themselves. The Gnostic lie that men can become gods started in the garden in Genesis 3:5. The Bible doesn’t teach the LDS view of exhalation so there is no conflating going on, rather your forcing your doctrine into the text. Salvation is a gift (Eph 2:8-9), that is why God gave his son to die for all humanity. It’s by his grace and not our works. Destroy your Tower of Babel today and surrender to the one true God, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone and you will be justified and have a permanent spot in heaven (Ephesians 1:13-14).
@@glennjohn3919 It was God who declared that "man has become as one of us" in the Garden and Moses who recorded the discussion. Why are you blaming the gnostics? (in kidding, I know you are adapting to the creedal tradition)
@@HaleStorm49 Good question. Why do few find it? When we look at all religions of the world what do we find? Works based religions. Just like the Tower of Babel every man in his flesh wants to work their way to heaven. Why? Because men love darkness rather than light (John 1), men are inherently sinful Ecclesiastes 7:20), they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1), and because of the root of all sin, pride. Men want the glory themselves. The Gnostic lie that men can become gods started in the garden in Genesis 3:5. The Bible doesn’t teach the LDS view of exhalation. There is no conflating going on, rather your forcing your doctrine into the text. Salvation is a gift, that is why God gave his son to die for all humanity. It’s by his grace and not our works. Destroy your Tower of Babel today and surrender to the one true God, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone and you will be justified and have a permanent spot in heaven (Ephesians 1:13-14).
"It is easier to fool someone than it is to convince them they have been fooled" ~ Mark Twain
I watched the South Park episode on LDS and cried from laughter
I grew up in Mormonism. Egyptologist Robert K Ritner (RIP) did a 3 part interview with Dr John Dehlin on Mormon Stories Podcast in July of 2020. Shortly after viewing that 15 hours of detailed information, and trying to see if the Mormon "Egyptologists" could answer any of the problems, that I realized the depths of the lies & deceit.
I was also trying to make sense of Biblical inconsistencies through Bart Erhman's Podcast. Also Mythvision, Dr Richard Carrier, Richard Cavendish, Rabbi Tovia Singer and so many others.
I take "scripture" with a significant salt block of skepticism. A couple of key factors that go along with the Book of Abraham translation problem is the Kinderhook plate translation scandal and his encounter with a Mminister with a Greek Psalter. Joseph tried to claim the Greek of the document was Hebrew and he tried to buy it. The minister knew what he had and had seen enough.
It was a great interview. His passing was such a loss.
i PROVIDED PROOF AND THESE COWARDS DELETED IT.
Yes, Joseph Smith got the translation 100 percent right link utube (BOA ep 16
Have you ever checked out Inspiring Philosophy's channel? He has some really good videos on Biblical archeology, including interviews with Egyptologists, and cites scholarly sources for his work. I believe that he sets a good bar for authenticity, which the LDS books clearly don't pass. It's a great way to view and learn from actual ancient texts without having such a fundamentalist reading.
Book of Abraham tells you in chapter 3 that this was never about an Egyptian translation. @@josephb.4640
Most Mormons have no knowledge of this issue.. We left for about 50 other reasons historical and theological.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
"Most Mormons have no knowledge of this issue."
I am mildly curious to see the survey results.
@@koltoncrane3099 how goes the process of earning your way to godhood? Have you done enough "copy/paste" of your comment on RUclips to outdo all the wickedness? Help enough old ladies across the street? Given enough tithes and offerings to impress a holy God?
That's your sign that Mormonism, like all other invented religions, is false. Any time a sinful human has to somehow impress or earn mercy from holy God, it's wrong. Turn from this abomination and learn about the true God who did the full work of salvation for you. In addition to it being the truth, it's also much more freeing knowing you no longer have to work your way into his favor: an impossible task for anyone.
sure we do! Try reading the book!!!
@@koltoncrane3099
But the parts we do have are not even close to being written by Abraham, about Abraham…nothing. So only the missing parts are? Isn’t that just too convenient? And why isn’t the part of the papyrus that isn’t about Abraham discussed by Joseph? He glossed over the fact that it’s a standard burial text?
Trying to argue any of these points to a Active LDS member is like talking to a lunatic. They always counter with the most absurd argument and check it off like they won the argument.
As an outsider watching videos, the Abraham text switcheroo was jaw-dropping, and I knew then Joseph had charlatan traits.
He probably thought no one was ever going to decipher the ancient Egyptologic texts. 😮
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
Just think if someone has told you that Jesus spit in dirt and healed someones blindness....or that someone was healed from touching a piece of an Aposlte' s fabric. No amount of examining would nlever convince an outsider who is determined to stay an outsider. Same reason Christ spoke in parables.
The process for becoming an insider was designed to take more effort and humility than most are willing to give.
Smith was right. The Egyptologists were wrong. Paul Gregersen clearly demonstrates this on his pro Book of Abraham videos.
WE PROVIDED PROOF OF THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM AND THESE COWARDS DELETED IT.
@koltoncrane3099 That's not true you're lying. Most of the pypyrias roles was found in tac
"Boys, we done f@cked up. How we gonna cover our asses and keep 'em believing? How much is this gonna cost in donations?"
You KNOW that conversation happened.
Nope. It's the same old crap that has been answered now for over a decade. In fact, the Book of Abraham is becoming more and more vindicated as a text of ancient origin, thanks to the constant drip of new information on these topics. It's actually kind of funny, because most of the Christian world remains ignorant to the topics related to Its own religion 😅. A little curiosity wouldn't hurt here...
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
@@koltoncrane3099 Span, spam, baked beans and spam.
Keep them engaged by the power of the sunk cost fallacy towards tithes & offerings. Double down with a threat of a lesser glory ( Terrestrial ) if a Temple recommend isn't maintained for a ( Celestial ) Resurrection & Godhood.
"How we gonna cover our asses and keep 'em believing?"
People believe for the same reason Peter believed.
"How much is this gonna cost in donations?"
$1.37
*Please watch-Dr. Robert Ritner, Mormon Stories: (1339, 1340 & 1341, 1591), LDS Discussions (Ep. 30, 31 & 32). There is 22 hours of detailed info in these videos!*
Mormon mental gymnastics should be an Olympic event.
What a great channel!! I left Mormonism a year ago, but 5 years prior to that really examined the LDS faith. Gratefully, I held tight to the gospel taught by Jesus- and I had wonderfully supportive Christian friends who helped me along the way! My life has been changed and I have been born again! The happiness I feel now cannot even compare to the life I lived as a former LDS. 2 weeks ago, I chose to be baptized- this time it was MY decision because I love the Lord! I was able to baptize my teenage daughter, and it was such a beautiful experience for our family. I would never give up what truths I have now. Thank you for clearly showing that one can still have faith in Jesus without the gospel of Joseph.
Funny how a rock discovered in Egypt debunks this entire cult.
"Funny how a rock discovered in Egypt debunks this entire cult."
Perhaps your definition of "debunk" needs revising.
Yes, I think the average person would agree with you.. however, mormons wont see it that way. If they can excuse everything J Smith did in his day, than this is nothing that will even test their faith and dedication to their religion. Its crazy, but its the truth. They are happy in their religion(most of them) I think we should just let them believe what they believe. It would be nice if they provided the same courtesy by not sending missionaries to our house every other week..
@@mdawgwhite " If they can excuse everything J Smith did in his day,"
Excusing Joseph Smith is not my problem. That's between God and Joseph Smith.
"They are happy in their religion"
(duh) yes, absolutely. If I was not I would not participate EXCEPT maybe in Zion where benefit exists to pretend.
"by not sending missionaries to our house every other week."
There's a "do not contact" list which is sometimes honored.
@@thomasmaughan4798 Joseph either translated it right, like he claimed, or he got it wrong. This is a binary thing. He was right or wrong. Are you suggesting he got the translation right, and everything we've learned about translating Egyptian today is wrong? This is direct and non-rhetorical, as there can be only one path in this specific situation: he was right, or wrong.
@thomasmaughan4798 As well as his definition of "cult."
I was mormon for 40 years, i didnt know about tgis abraham thing until after i left. Unreal how horrible joseph smith was. What a con artist
So you never read the book in forty years? You conned yourself.
@@AnthonyWariner The pearl of great price is usually brushed aside by the church in favor of having its members read the BoM yet another time.
🎯 Key points for quick navigation:
00:01 *📜 Introduction to the Book of Abraham Controversy*
- The Book of Abraham plays a central role in challenging Joseph Smith's legitimacy.
- It's a unique text in LDS scriptures due to possessing an original manuscript.
- Many view it as proof of Smith being a false prophet.
00:55 *🔍 Acquisition and Claims of the Papyrus*
- Joseph Smith claimed the papyrus to be writings of Abraham and Joseph.
- Acquisition and translation contextualized within 1835’s limited knowledge of Egyptian hieroglyphs.
- The papyrus acquisition framed as an extraordinary occurrence by the LDS church.
03:43 *📑 Content and Teachings of the Book of Abraham*
- The Book of Abraham discusses pre-mortal existence and eternal spirits.
- Claims controversial teachings about race and priesthood eligibility.
- Features facsimiles interpreted by Smith but fail scholarly validation.
06:32 *🗞️ Rediscovery and Discrepancies of the Papyrus*
- Rediscovery of the papyrus in 1967 discredited Smith’s translations.
- Scholars found them to be standard Egyptian funeral texts.
- The LDS church’s response lacked tackling translation discrepancies directly.
10:57 *🏛️ LDS Response and Theories*
- Official LDS essays provided potential, yet unprovable, explanations.
- Suggested theories emphasized spiritual revelation over literal translation.
- Such explanations conflict with Smith’s own statements about the papyrus.
14:11 *⚖️ Objective vs. Subjective Faith Tests*
- The handling of the Book of Abraham highlights a focus on subjective faith.
- Concerns about LDS detachment from objective historical analysis.
- Invites Latter-day Saints to heed biblical warnings against false prophets.
18:09 *🌍 Conclusion and Call to Evaluate Beliefs*
- Urges LDS members to separate Jesus from Joseph Smith in their beliefs.
- Encourages evaluating Smith with objective criteria provided in scripture.
- Stresses that faith can remain intact without tying it to Joseph Smith’s prophethood.
Made with HARPA AI
My favorite debunk that most do not point out is that Smith 'translated' his BoM into the wrong language, into Middle English, which was not used during his time. No one would translate into the wrong language unless it was specifically meant to directly mimic the KJB.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
Hmm yes many have mentioned that. I think it’s fine the Book of Mormon English mimics the king
James version. That being said even the King James Version is horrible!
Did you know the first verse of the Bible in Hebrew says gods. It’s plural. And the Jewish kaballah which is taught to a man once he’s at least 40 years old teaches there’s like 23 gods with big god over them.
@@koltoncrane3099 but when the manuscript was uncovered, the church itself published articles about it saying it was recovered, not that 10% of it was recovered. And that drawing of the undertaker over the body, and that’s the same illustration JS said was supposed to be Abraham. I mean, faith is faith, you can choose to believe whatever you want without reference to any facts; but if you try to convince others, then facts matter.
"No one would translate into the wrong language unless it was specifically meant to directly mimic the KJB."
Yes, that is correct. It is recognizably "holy language" and not vernacular or profane. Nearly every household had a bible and often it was the only book in the house.
@@koltoncrane3099 LDS PLEASE DON'T REJECT GOD OF BIBLE & FOLLOW THE FALSE EVOLVING GODS OF Joseph Smith?
ISN'T YOUR ETERNITY WORTH EXAMINING THE TRUTH?
"Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of J.S. and LDS members.
Isaiah 44:6 says, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." and it goes on "Is there any God besides me?... I know not one" So obviously God is saying there is NOT any infinite amount of Gods, and there is none other like Him. Mormonism teaches that there is.
LDS paid scholar Dan McClellan in 2024: " The data pretty firmly points in the OPPOSITE direction of a historical BOM" youtube short video "Is the BOM historical?"
There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the Book of Mormon. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “The first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists” conceding 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77)
NO trace of Jewish DNA found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from time period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (Mormon scholar, DNA researcher): “the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are not Hebrews, they are not Israelites. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005
NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 drawings taken from an ancient Egyptian papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus showing scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In drawings Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE
NO trace of “2 million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. It is impossible for these millions of dead warriors in metal armor to leave no trace.
NO trace of the "great" city Zarahemla- it is impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla described in BOM (Alma 5:2; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace.
NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. This "temple" could not just disappear.
NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings described by J.S. ever found anywhere as it is not a real language anywhere in the world.
NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) ANYWHERE. It would be impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed.
NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet NOT ONE ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for highly advanced civilizations (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished.
The BOM speaks of sheep, swine, silk, wool clothing & elephants existing in the Americas when they did not. 1 Ne.13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24 These were brought to America centuries later by Europeans.
NO wheat, no goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no cattle, no chariot parts, no brass (Mosiah 8:10) no evidence of the listed Kings in BOM, no Jewish relics or Jewish Temples from supposed Jews, no metal plates like Nephites supposedly used, no middle eastern seeds growing, "which were brought from the land of Jerusalem ... and grew exceedingly" 1 Nephi 18:24
CAN WE IGNORE THE LACK OF EVIDENCE FOR THE THE BOOK OF MORMON AND JUST TRUST OUR FEELINGS AS TO THE TRUTH OF IT EVEN THOUGH IT CONFLICTS WITH THE BIBLE? NO!
D&C Section 9:8-9 - tell us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The Bible warns us against this subjective type of truth test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be deceived. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL."
The Scriptures, however, are infallible and can never be wrong (John 17:17; Psalm 119:128; 33:4; 19:8; Romans 3:4).
This is why the Bible frequently urges us to study and meditate on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS (J.S.) have gone out into the world."
Mormonism CLAIMS the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods . However, this is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was CORRUPTED and "plain and precious parts" were removed after the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and ABOMINABLE church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Most Mormons believe this is the Catholic Church formed in the 4th century. Nephi claims this church was founded by the DEVIL (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively examine the Bible & BOM.
BIBLE: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll, which is the oldest known copy of the Book of Isaiah dated to 180 BC.
Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said.
Also, if they had been corrupted, Jesus would have corrected scripture instead of affirming it! Jesus sd:“ I told you EVERYTHING written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46)
Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Joseph Smith was wrong. These scrolls pre-dated Catholics, and are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity". 1Nephi 13:25
LDS Apologist Wayne Ham admitted the Isaiah scroll does not support the the BOM. Apologist Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, of BYU, said the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Professor Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984)
IS THE GOD OF THE BOOK OF MORMON THE SAME ONE AS IN THE BIBLE? NO! In the LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26)
Like Joseph Smith, the goal of Satan was to be like God and have worshipers. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God ... I will be like the Most High”’ (Isaiah 14:12-14)
The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the book of John. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 150 AD, around the Apostle John's time)
John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google)
John 1:1 Joseph Smith mistranslation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV. In order to try to make things work for LDS, J.S. added extra verses and verbiage into John 1 that were never there in any ancient texts to try to separate the idea of a trinity into 3 Gods.
There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and NONE support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted.
Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17)
The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous.
God is much greater than the humanoid of Mormonism and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS.
Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "many wolves in sheep's clothing" will come trying to add to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and taught you can become a GOD.
It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for the lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal God found in the bible.
"The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
Apostle Orson Pratt, in The Seer, page 172, “the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a Polygamist…The son followed the example of his Father"
God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, which is why he does tell us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version fails the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.
If there are any Mormons reading this, I would be curious to read a response from you concerning this video.
John Gee has already addressed everything in this vid
I’m so glad I left Mormonism and am now a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
same thing you mofo lol
@@MrMuaythai84grateful for modern day prophets and revelations! Grateful to not follow the Nicene Creed put together by Emperor Constantine. That would be like Biden getting religious figures together to make doctrine for the church.
@@Ayala-99Do you have any evidence that Constantine is responsible for the formation of the Nicene Creed or is it merely an assumption/claim you are making?
@@Ayala-99 Perhaps you should spend more time studying ancient history and Church history. The Nicene Creed was just a confirmation of beliefs that pretty much everyone already held by that time, taught by the Apostles and their succesors, with no involvement of Constantine. And there were many other ecumenical councils that just went and confirmed Christian beliefs further. All of Christianity now follows the Nicene-Constantinoplan Creed and the Apostles' Creed, while some Churches of the East stick to the Nicene Creed.
I don't mean to be rude, for real, but it is not healthy to just assume things that aren't historically true. You should question yourself and use your reason, and not just go and repeat the words of some spiteful and misinformed preacher that doesn't want you to think by yourself.
So what is different, specifically, about when you were in Mormonism, versus when you are now in the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints?
As an ex-Mormon I realized that the doctrine that the Mormons have are directly given from an Angel of light. This realization terrified me and I do feel like many Mormons are good people, who are being fooled by a doctrine that was from the devil himself.
"who are being fooled by a doctrine that was from the devil himself."
The difference between a Korihor and a Nehor, is that Nehor is apostate. Both are destructive and offer nothing.
"14 Behold, these things which ye call prophecies, which ye say are handed down by holy prophets, behold, they are foolish traditions of your fathers."
@@thomasmaughan4798 the Bible warns of the Mormon doctrine thousands of years before it’s creation.
Galatians 1: 8-20
It also warns that anything added or taken away will cause a man to be accursed. This is a revelation from Jesus Christ.
Specifically it warned of the Satan who masquerades as an Angel of light. The Angel of light is who Joseph met. Corinthians 11:14
Angels of God are referred to as just that. And Angel of god or an Angel of he lord.
John 10: 1-12 the only way to salvation is through the door, which is Jesus Christ. All others are thieves come to destroy and kill.
@@kittiemarie1235 I come to these anti-Mormon channels hoping to someday maybe encounter a NEW complaint, one that would make me think about it for more than two seconds. even so, I shall give consideration to each complaint.
"the Bible warns of the Mormon doctrine thousands of years before it’s creation."
That seems unlikely. Furthermore "the bible" has almost no meaning in this context. There was no bible prior to the Catholics creating it. At any rate, I do not know any scripture in the usual bibles that warn against "Mormon doctrine".
"Galatians 1: 8-20
It also warns that anything added or taken away will cause a man to be accursed. This is a revelation from Jesus Christ."
Yes and no. It is a letter from Paul to the Galatians. They have apparently been taught a gospel but not Paul's gospel.
As to adding and taking away; from what, exactly? The bible did not exist. This letter exists. It seems to be a warning not to tamper with the letter.
As to revelation from Jesus Christ; maybe, but the letter does not claim it. What it claims is that PAUL received the gospel by revelation.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, *neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ* .
And yet:
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
So it is conflicted. Did Paul receive instruction solely by revelations (v12) or by instruction from Peter (v18) probably both.
So how exactly did Paul become an apostle? He seems to claim it, wasn't appointed: 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
So, anyone could CLAIM to be an apostle and who is to say otherwise? You?
"Specifically it warned of the Satan who masquerades as an Angel of light.
Corinthians 11:14"
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Yes, it is a masquerade, and why not? You are much more likely to believe an angel of light rather than an angel of dark. Satan can *also masquerade as a minister of righteousness* such as exist in large numbers on anti-mormon channels.
"John 10: 1-12 the only way to salvation is through the door, which is Jesus Christ"
Yes, that is fundamental mormon doctrine. I do not see the problem here. Does the door keeper (Jesus Christ) wish anything from you? No? Does the door keeper *require* anything from you? Christians vary widely on that question.
I think Islam and Mormonism were both warned of.
@@jonathanpearson2795 yes because there will be many false prophets and many anti-Christs. It says this in scripture! Good catch! Interestingly the origin story of both these religions is eerily similar!
Wonderful video, hopefully this gets some Latter Day Saints questioning their church and turning to the real and living Christ.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
"hopefully this gets some Latter Day Saints questioning their church"
Yes. That is why you exist; to help separate wheat from tares, sheep from goats. "Questioning" is easy. Answering less easy.
"turning to the real and living Christ."
Yes, do that, but by which tradition? There's about ten thousand denominations of Christianity; and who is to say that it must be Jesus and not Allah or Buddha? Can you say whether Jesus IS God, or the Son of God? To whom was he praying?
So, yeah, QUESTION and when you need answers, look to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It even has "Jesus" in the name!
Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith by presenting proper interpretational understanding on translation.
What? Smith got the translation 100 percent right, they lie proof link utube (BOA ep 16) type in exact title to get there
Actually non lds egyptologists are admitting that Joseph Smith didnt translate the Abraham papyri wrong and they are posting it on youtube link title (….book of abraham scholar critic admits I’m right) …type in this exact title to get there.
I got my LDS friend to admit that the book of Abraham is fishy, if not false. I sent him a video from Mike W, titled something like "I Think I Found Proof Mormonism Isn't True"
@@ericb.1384 Winger 🤣😂
Please find a better mentor.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
@@HaleStorm49I love Mike Winger and think he’s one of the best Bible teachers online right now, even if I disagree with him on certain things. Mormonism isn’t his strong suit and if I had the chance to sit down with him I’d correct him as an ex-Mormon.
However, when you treat him with that kind of derision and disrespect, it makes you look petty and jealous.
@@austinnajar His derision and disrespect doesn't make him sound petty and jealous? How does that work?
@@HaleStorm49 he isnt laughing at Mormons, he’s trying to expose Christians to what Mormons believe to protect the body of Christ from the wolves in sheep’s clothing that are Mormon missionaries and leaders. There’s a huge difference. You’re just laughing at the man.
Yet, their BYU "Egyptologists"and apologists continue to spin new twisted theory's. It is so sad. 😢
I am thankful for your channel, GLM. Keep up the good work. May the Lord bless you in Jesus holy name.✝️🕊️❤️🔥🙏
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
@@koltoncrane3099support your claim with Scholarship, evidence.
@@koltoncrane3099False.
@@koltoncrane3099 wake up Kolton. Wake up wake up wake up!
ruclips.net/video/hxPzpbJnyKk/видео.html * That link is to a different qualified scholars interpretation on RUclips video based on new discoveries in Egypt. We need to be objective and fair by considering new modern discoveries in Egypt that seem to give credence to what Smith claimed and that shows past Egyptologists did not have a full understanding. We need to be honest and not bias and prejudice, unlike woke political new journalists who have an agenda.
...this was one of the first things we looked at before leaving the LDS church almost a year later. Without questions, Jospeh Smith was unable to translate even with the so called power of God. This was supposed to be the evidence that God was working through him, but clearly he wasn't. Therefore Jospeh Smith is a false prophet and the LDS church is founded on a fallacy which is so evident in the other doctrine he came up with like three kingdoms of glory in heaven (the Bible does NOT have the word telestial), polygamy in the Celecial Kingdom and the concept that we could actually become gods ourselves and that God the Father was a man just like us. This is so contrary to the Bible, so we left.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
I will say this the Bible was made by the dying Roman Empire. Did you know Catholics did mass book burnings and killed thousands. When a soldier was told to kill gnostics in the south of France he asked the pope how do we tell if they’re gnostic. The pope said kill em all god will sort em out. While the Bible may have a lot of truth you’re insane to think it’s 100% right when a corrupt organization made it and used it to retain control for a very long time.
@@koltoncrane3099 …ok I see your point. But what about the parts that Joseph Smith did translate? Why is that not accurate?
more evidence has now been found that does corroborates well with some of the meaning joseph smith gave.
@@leocrawf …please show the evidence.
The irony is that when Christianity fails the same object test (eg. With Noah's Ark), most Christians will come up with similar excuses rather than reevaluate their beliefs.
Where exactly have you seen a Christian point to extra-biblical ancient texts and claim that they are mentioning Noah?
Christianity does not fail.
Objectively speaking, I believe what this comment represents, is a false comparison
Jesus added to his church those he saved acts 2: 47 where is the 12 apostles church? Only LDS have true Christianity of the Bible. @@hopeinHim5160
@samvodopianov9399 it's the biblical text that's problematic. Just because it's in your cannon doesn't make it any less ridiculous or demonstrably false.
I am a practicing Catholic for the last 45 years, raised in the Church of the Nazarene. I am a believer, but I recognize that any Faith, all faiths , do not past objective tests. Faith is not something to know but to believe. I choose to believe because of the religions I have studied it is the one I want to be true. I pray and attend Church but I recognize the Bible not has a true historic text but like any textbook, presents parables that I can glean truths from it to live a better and more fulfilling life. But I cannot know.
It sounds like you need to read your catechism
Edward, you believe in yourself. You worship yourself.
Why are Catholics always quick to reject the historical value of The Bible?
I grew up catholic btw, I left the denomination and have my own ideas on Christianity, still a Christian.
I wish I could like this video 100 times more
Their entire apologetic is "read the book of Mormon and see if you feel it is true in your heart". They're in an utterly barren religion that can't make any sort of truth claim
So much "they" on this page! 16 million of them. Oh My Gosh.
I've read it. it's not even that well written. Tolkien is a far far better, more enjoyable read (subjective, of course). What is NOT subjective is this: Moroni 10 claims of "spiritual witness" is false. It's empty; there's nothing there. I feel moved far more from Tolkien's works, and certain other great men's writings, than Joseph's book.
@@saa8488 "I feel moved far more from Tolkien's works, and certain other great men's writings, than Joseph's book.
Some do, some don't. But that is true of nearly everything.
@@saa8488 " Tolkien is a far far better, more enjoyable read"
I tend to agree; they are different kinds of book.
"As to the creation of The Lord of the Rings, he arrived at its conclusion after seventeen years, at the cost of 'immense pains', as Christopher Tolkien put it"
Joseph Smith did Book of Mormon in 60 days.
J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings drew inspiration from a variety of sources, including:
Places
Tolkien was inspired by many places, including Sarehole Mill near Birmingham for Hobbiton, Cheddar Gorge for Helm's Deep's caves, and the Uffington White Horse for Rohan. Tolkien also cited the Silberhorn, a side peak of the Jungfrau in Switzerland, as an inspiration.
Language
Tolkien was a gifted linguist and drew on Germanic, Celtic, Finnish, Slavic, and Greek languages and mythologies.
Norse mythology and Icelandic folktales
Tolkien was inspired by Icelandic books like the Sagas and Prose Edda, as well as Norse mythology.
Personal experiences
Tolkien's childhood in Worcestershire, England, and his experiences fighting in World War I as a British Army officer at the Battle of the Somme also influenced the book. Tolkien said he created the mythology to express his feelings about good, evil, and fairness.
Relationships
Tolkien's forbidden romance with Edith, an Anglican woman, inspired some of the book's characters, such as Arwen and Aragorn, whose story is similar to that of a mortal man and an immortal elf woman
Joseph Smith: Well, he was a farm boy. Not much in the way of source material.
@@thomasmaughan4798 I appreciate your appreciation of Tolkien. You’ve clearly spent time on him. I suggest spending similar time on Joseph, as that “60 days” claim is dishonest. Perhaps not on your part, but those who gave it to you. He spent years reading the story, an assertion backed up by his own mother. Two hours of dictation per day, with a readied story, a King James Bible open in front of him (when he wasn’t stuffing his head on a hat not translating claimed plates), taking breaks, all odd it dictated to supportive scribes, using names he was familiar with or simple enough to make up (“pay lay ale”? lol), stopping for months after he lost part of the manuscript knowing he could never reproduce it word for word, which would be a simple treat if he were actually translating plates, suddenly it becomes easier to understand.
Adding in the anachronisms coming from pulling ideas out of the King James Version, horses, steel, translation artifacts he didn’t understand and got wrong, and not a single ounce of israelite DNA in the “Lamanites” anywhere in the Americas like he said they had (blood, he obviously didn’t know about DNA), the large pile of corpses that are things Joseph got wrong is a big pile of problems the church danced around and either ignores or guilts you into ignoring “it’ll only harm your testimony to read certain things”. Almost like letting a child Know Santa is not real. And it certainly doesn’t contain “thethe fullness of the gospel” leaving out two separate priesthoods, polygamy, endowments, anything temple related, and everything else Joseph created to cover his adultery.
Yes, I agree he and Tolkien are nothing alike.
Thanks for helping our mormon friends know the truth. That truth is only found in Jesus and His word in the bible.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
@koltoncrane3099 So is your point that since we don't have the 116 lost pages, then we can not know for certain that the Book of Mormon is true?
"That truth is only found in Jesus and His word in the bible."
Hmm. So what makes you think Jesus of the bible is "truth"? Why is not the Bagavad Gita just as holy? Why not the Koran? About those words; they were written from memory about 40 years later. Good words for sure; but is there a book anywhere on Earth that does not proclaim itself? The Urantia book claims itself, the Koran claims itself, the Book of Mormon claims itself. The bible isn't a "book" per se; it is a collection of writings. Why do you not accept further writings? Anyone inspired by God can write, is that any less scripture than what Paul wrote?
I grew up Mormon and was always fascinated by the book of Abraham. Imagine my extreme disappointment when I finally learned it was all made up. Thank you for helping to bring this fraud to light and encouraging people to think critically
We left the church 4 years ago. We moved away during Covid and never went back. Requested our family be removed from the rolls of the church, and we were done. The Gospel Topics Essays did it for me. I told a friend still in the church that it felt like finding out my wife had been unfaithful to me from day one and that none of my children are actually mine. He is still in the church. He decided to embrace the lie nevertheless.
As long as you allow for miracles, any problem can be explained away. For example, in this case, God, in His infinite wisdom miraculously changed the papyri to look like a common Egyptian burial scroll after Smith was done, so that Joseph Smith (no relation) would be the only mortal give the honor of seeing the original text.
You can't argue with people who believe in miracles. They can always pull a miracle out of their hat.
The Book of Abraham, along with all the works in the Pearl of Great Price, along with the Doctrine and Covenants, with the Book of Mormon, and with the Old and New testament has brought me so close to Jesus Christ. I am thankful for the inspired scriptures, including the Book of Abraham.
Me too. The book of Abraham is my favorite scripture. Did you catch the errors in this video.
@@saleemfrazer3643 he said that the scrolls were returned when only 10 scraps were returned. He shows "nearly identical" pictures that are significantly different. The person laying down in his pictures is mummified with their feet together (i recently learned this means the person is dead) and arms close to their bodies. Where in the book of Abraham pictur the body is not mummified, feet are one in front of the other (meaning they are alive) and the arms are raised possibly in defense or begging. He points out that Joseph taught the world was created out of preexisting matter. His point is Joseph is wrong because he believes in creation out of nothing even the Bible doesn't say that. And doesn't mention that Joseph's teachings line up with Hebrew/Jewish teachings. As far as I know Joseph did not say that it was the actual handwriting of Abraham but I think an apostle said or implied it. I stopped watching half way through so I dont know if there's more. He mocks the fact that the golden plates are not available to see if the translation is correct as if someone today could easily translate them, and ignores the fact that we dont have the original Bible to see if our translation is correct. He would probably point to the dead sea scrolls as evidence but they date to 200ad. Thats a long time after Christ and even longer after Moses. He's very crafty. If I didn't already know these things I would have been fooled. One thing I've noticed about people like this is that they spend all their time debase mormonism but never share what they offer.
ALL written and influenced by fallen angels.
@@lespaul382 pretty offensive to call Jesus Christ a fallen angel but ok
@@lespaul382 so you admit that Joseph Smith didn't make it up.
The Lord is showing them that their prophet misled them, but they refuse to believe and to come to the Light.
All religion is man-made idiotic nonsense.
"The Lord" didn't do anything. The people in this video did all the work.
Have you heard of the Holy Ghost? let me introduce the third member of the Godhead. His job is to testify of the Father and the Son and to bring us to all truth! When He reveals truth it is burned into our souls! That is why I am a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints!
@user-vv7er6qu3p imaginary fake thing in your head. You have nothing and you're lying for something that is verifiably fake.
@@RogerKartchner Which God? Elihom that rules over planet Kolab? LOL
It's not just mormonism.. it's every denomination. Many many false prophets.
Not the bible. God bless.
LDS PLEASE DON'T REJECT GOD OF BIBLE & FOLLOW THE FALSE EVOLVING GODS OF Joseph Smith?
ISN'T YOUR ETERNITY WORTH EXAMINING THE TRUTH?
"Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of J.S. and LDS members.
Isaiah 44:6 says, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." and it goes on "Is there any God besides me?... I know not one" So obviously God is saying there is NOT any infinite amount of Gods, and there is none other like Him. Mormonism teaches that there is.
LDS paid scholar Dan McClellan in 2024: " The data pretty firmly points in the OPPOSITE direction of a historical BOM" youtube short video "Is the BOM historical?"
There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the Book of Mormon. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “The first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists” conceding 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77)
NO trace of Jewish DNA found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from time period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (Mormon scholar, DNA researcher): “the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are not Hebrews, they are not Israelites. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005
NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 drawings taken from an ancient Egyptian papyrus. The book is a funerary papyrus showing scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In drawings Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE
NO trace of “2 million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. It is impossible for these millions of dead warriors in metal armor to leave no trace.
NO trace of the "great" city Zarahemla- it is impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla described in BOM (Alma 5:2; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace.
NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple is easily seen in Jerusalem. This "temple" could not just disappear.
NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings described by J.S. ever found anywhere as it is not a real language anywhere in the world.
NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) ANYWHERE. It would be impossible for them to disappear unless they never existed.
NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet NOT ONE ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for highly advanced civilizations (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished.
The BOM speaks of sheep, swine, silk, wool clothing & elephants existing in the Americas when they did not. 1 Ne.13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24 These were brought to America centuries later by Europeans.
NO wheat, no goats, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no cattle, no chariot parts, no brass (Mosiah 8:10) no evidence of the listed Kings in BOM, no Jewish relics or Jewish Temples from supposed Jews, no metal plates like Nephites supposedly used, no middle eastern seeds growing, "which were brought from the land of Jerusalem ... and grew exceedingly" 1 Nephi 18:24
CAN WE IGNORE THE LACK OF EVIDENCE FOR THE THE BOOK OF MORMON AND JUST TRUST OUR FEELINGS AS TO THE TRUTH OF IT EVEN THOUGH IT CONFLICTS WITH THE BIBLE? NO!
D&C Section 9:8-9 - tell us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right. Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you"
The Bible warns us against this subjective type of truth test. Why? Because we have a sinful nature that can be deceived. Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own (bosom) heart is a FOOL."
The Scriptures, however, are infallible and can never be wrong (John 17:17; Psalm 119:128; 33:4; 19:8; Romans 3:4).
This is why the Bible frequently urges us to study and meditate on God's word. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." Acts 17:11 "EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES to see if what said is TRUE". 1John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, ... because MANY FALSE PROPHETS (J.S.) have gone out into the world."
Mormonism CLAIMS the bible was corrupted to justify Joseph Smith's changing of the biblical, eternal God into an evolving, created god, who is not all powerful and is one of an endless number of gods . However, this is a PROVABLY FALSE claim.
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was CORRUPTED and "plain and precious parts" were removed after the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and ABOMINABLE church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Most Mormons believe this is the Catholic Church formed in the 4th century. Nephi claims this church was founded by the DEVIL (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively examine the Bible & BOM.
BIBLE: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll, which is the oldest known copy of the Book of Isaiah dated to 180 BC.
Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith and Nephi said.
Also, if they had been corrupted, Jesus would have corrected scripture instead of affirming it! Jesus sd:“ I told you EVERYTHING written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46)
Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling and punctuation differences. Joseph Smith was wrong. These scrolls pre-dated Catholics, and are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity". 1Nephi 13:25
LDS Apologist Wayne Ham admitted the Isaiah scroll does not support the the BOM. Apologist Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, of BYU, said the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Professor Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984)
IS THE GOD OF THE BOOK OF MORMON THE SAME ONE AS IN THE BIBLE? NO! In the LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26)
Like Joseph Smith, the goal of Satan was to be like God and have worshipers. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God ... I will be like the Most High”’ (Isaiah 14:12-14)
The new testament has not been corrupted either. See the book of John. Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 150 AD, around the Apostle John's time)
John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google)
John 1:1 Joseph Smith mistranslation: "In the beginning was the GOSPEL preached through the Son. And the GOSPEL was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV. In order to try to make things work for LDS, J.S. added extra verses and verbiage into John 1 that were never there in any ancient texts to try to separate the idea of a trinity into 3 Gods.
There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and NONE support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted.
Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17)
The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's exalted man from another planet who is not eternal, not all powerful, not perfect but evolving, and was polygamous.
God is much greater than the humanoid of Mormonism and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF EVOLVING GODS.
Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "many wolves in sheep's clothing" will come trying to add to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and taught you can become a GOD.
It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for the lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal God found in the bible.
"The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
Apostle Orson Pratt, in The Seer, page 172, “the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a Polygamist…The son followed the example of his Father"
God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, which is why he does tell us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version fails the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.
I'll agree with that (as an evangelical Christian). It's in the denominations AND in the non-denominations.
The ONLY way to protect yourself & your family from these charlatans (other than common sense) is to: "Continue in the doctrine of the apostles" (Acts 2:42) and believe Simon Peter's claim that we have been given "all things that pertain to life & godliness" already, through the knowledge of Jesus Christ in the Bible (2 Peter 1:3). If we have it "all" already, then we'll never have to ask for "more".
And if we can believe what the apostles said, Simon Peter said: even HIS own personal first-hand experience of seeing, touching, hearing Jesus-his "testimony"-was not as "sure" a word of prophecy as what the Bible says. (2 Peter 2:16-21) Too bad so many LDS people (and other professing Christians) build their entire faith on their own experiences and feelings (and what they are told) rather than on what the Bible says. Knowing the real is all that can save you from being duped by the counterfeit.
I'm 40 years old, atheist, and an ex-Mormon. I left the church last October.
This is a very fair and accurate assessment of the Book of Abraham problem. Very well done. You did a very good job of balancing respect for the beliefs of Mormons with the ridiculousness of the history of the book.
There are other reasons to leave the church, of course. But this is one of the huge ones.
Is there a reason you’ve chosen to disbelieve in God entirely upon leaving the church? I get it as an ex-Mormon myself, but I think the evidence supporting Christianity is too strong to ignore overall.
@@austinnajar statistically it's more common to become a non believer than a low believer after turning your back to the church of Jesus Christ.
@@HaleStorm49 I’m aware of the statistics of those who leave Mormonism. But Mormonism teaching a false god and false Christ doesn’t mean the true Christ and true God aren’t still real.
@@austinnajar Quite simply - because modern Christianity bears the same marks of high demand religion that Mormonism has.
Regarding Biblical "proof," as referenced in this video, I'd simply point to the work of Dan McClellan, who I consider an expert in the field.
There is no scientific evidence for the "truth" of Christianity - only carefully chosen rhetorical "evidence." My life is better without it.
@@danielevensen5539 you don’t use the scientific method to prove history. You use the evidentiary method and the evidence does point to Christianity being reliable and true.
Also, if you truly think Christianity is a high demand religion, I would suggest you aren’t truly knowledgeable about what Christian theology teaches.
Had a few words with 2 young fellas the other day about this. I am Navajo we have a long history with the LDS. Once I got into the history they immediately said "have a good day" then left. Lol. I will pray for them for sure..
"Once I got into the history they immediately said "have a good day" "
Missionaries are instructed to NOT get into debate. They don't have time for that and tend not to be thoroughly familiar with the topics you consider important. They are FINDERS. Sheep know their shepherd's voice.
Have you come across the Mormon Stories Podcast? There's a whole library full of videos exposing Mormonism and a slew of ppl arguing in support of the Mormon religion. It wears me out debating them. They don't listen, they are indoctrinated to the death. I find it more difficult to debate Mormons than to debate an Atheist. Maybe that's the difference between believing in nothing vs something 🤔 it's a tuff job, keep on doing the Lord's work!
@@kristinelabounty6856 now you know how the Pharisees felt dealing with all the christians. It just have been maddening... Even after they murdered their leader.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
To believe in bom you have to distance yourself from critical thinking.
@@koltoncrane3099the parts that the church has are matches to the translations in the JS Papers… they are bad translations.
"They don't listen, they are indoctrinated to the death."
Who exactly are "they"? The people on this channel and others? Who is there that is NOT indoctrinated in one theology or another?
"I find it more difficult to debate Mormons"
It's easy; but largely pointless. You believe what you believe for various reasons and I believe what I believe for various reasons. RUclips comments are not really a good place to calmly discuss these beliefs and reasons.
As you can see, most of the Korihor's and Nehor's don't have much in the way of *belief* but a lot in the way of *disbelief* .
"Maybe that's the difference between believing in nothing vs something"
Yes, exactly, almost the point I was making. Most attacks on the church stop with the attack. If you want to move people, you offer something better, more comprehensive. Christianity for the most part is a complete shambles; people cannot even decide whether Jesus is the Son of God, or IS God; most seem to go with incomprehensibility and are happy with it. So, The Church of Jesus Christ has four books of knowledge, that's a lot of "something". Why would I walk away from that? Why would I leave light and knowledge and walk toward confusion? Well, I don't.
Good Work Beloved Brother, same as you, I was Borned Catholic and With the values of Protestantism and Have So many Questions About the Truth History and The Bible but like you Always got the Answers By precepts of men, just Protesting the Catholic Belief and By Investigating the Mormons or "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". It just Lighten my Mind Answer every Questions I Ask Through Prays, Studying the Bible with the Guidance of the Holy Spirit. God Truely Lives and Answers me in my Heart, That Joseph is a really a True Prophet of God, Restore his One and Only True Church and it is His "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"... only this Church Answers Every question when it comes to the Truthfulness of the The True Gospel of Jesus Christ Answers by Our Loving and Living God, not by precepts of Men😊🙏God Bless Beloved Brother...
That was a great video, well put together and I appreciate that you share the truth that we can still have good reason to believe in Jesus without LDS.
Agreed, that was a much needed (and often forgotten by us evangelicals) message to those LDS people we are trying to speak to. Paul preached Jesus. We should never leave him out!
I'm Mormon. I'm for sure born again in Christ as he pulled me from the grave. I'm not born again in Mormonism. I'm born again in Christ. As are all people who are born again.
Luke 9 49-50. Those who are not against us are with us.
Can a Mormon perform an exorcist
Everyone from all denominations believe they are born again.
Not 1 person who is truly born again can ever be a mormon, as being born again will remove you from deceptive false doctrines and lds/ morm9nism is extremely far from truth.
-ex mormon who used to believe the great mormon lie.
How do you test your profession of faith?
The subjective experience that you described as common among Mormons is also depicted in the Bible.
“Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
This burning of the hearts described by the disciples Testify to the biblical reality of this “subjective experience”, And this is, indeed, why many Mormons Cling to their faith no matter what evidence is presented to them. It is a very difficult subjective experience to disavow. I know because as an ex Mormon of more than 30 years I am still haunted by these experiences, I had many experiences in which I felt this burning, conviction, clarity, love sweep over me and I know they are real as much as any past experience I have lived through. I have sought to replicate these experiences in other churches but have not found anything close. As a result I have contemplated a return to Mormonism but am daunted by such realities as the book of Abraham and myriads of others I could write volumes about. So I keep myself aloof from all who claim to uniquely know the true faith. But I say these “subjective experiences” you describe and criticize are very real, convincing and powerful and i hove found them nowhere so profound as wham I was involved in Mormonism. I would like to shun it, disavow it entirely, but I cannot. That’s how strong and convincing these experiences are, they completely trump rationality
Luke 24:32 is not given as a point of doctrine for confirming the truth of the Gospel. It was an acknowledgement of the reaction in the heart of hearts of the two men as the risen, living Christ was directly, in real time, opening the Scriptures to them.
@@freespeech4all757 Thanks for clearing that up, God.
@@johnfaris5376 My, what a bizarre response.
@@freespeech4all757 I find it ludicrous when people speak as if they know the mind, and will of God, as if they are uniquely aware of the true meaning of scripture, who dogmatically say it is this way or that way. explaining scripture is a matter of opinion, of interpretation, there is great debate about much of it. It is the height of arrogance to Dogmatically say here’s what it means
@@johnfaris5376 It just takes a little bit of common sense to determine what is transpiring between the two disciples and the risen Christ on the road to Emmaus. I'm sure if Jesus - the creator of heaven and earth - was right next to you and giving you a thorough exposition of the Word of God, you would have some kind of intense reaction as well.
This was common with those who heard Christ - "And when He had finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at His teaching", and "“Never has anyone spoken like this man!” . So it doesn't take a deep theological dive to understand the plain meaning of Luke 24:32. No theological doctrine is being established in this verse.
This is a great video... in fact the notion of a personal experience as being the basis for validating theology is _refuted_ by the fact that one's subjective feelings are based on their desires and James warns us "when desire has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." (James 1:15). it is precisely that desire of a "burning in the bosom" held *_contrary_* to the teachings of Scripture that are the greatest avenue by which the devil captivates those who do not receive a love of the truth (John 8:31-32, 2Cor 4:3-7, 2Thes 2:9-12)
ruclips.net/video/hxPzpbJnyKk/видео.html * That link is to a different qualified scholars interpretation on RUclips video based on new discoveries in Egypt. We need to be objective and fair by considering new modern discoveries in Egypt that seem to give credence to what Smith claimed and that shows past Egyptologists did not have a full understanding. We need to be honest and not bias and prejudice, unlike woke political new journalists who have an agenda.
All religion is man-made. Read Deuteronomy.
Galatians 1:8...
Nuff said..
All religion is man-made. Read Deuteronomy. Nuff said.
What about the Kirkland Temple? Did Jesus visit the Kirkland temple and those other heavenly figures giving them the sealing power or was that false as well?
Hi!
No, I'd say that Jesus did not appear in the Kirtland Temple. Perhaps there was a spirit masquerading as Jesus...but Jesus did not physically appear.
Apart from the historical context, I feel pretty confident of that because of what Jesus said in Matthew 24 - "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
When they say "look, he is in the inner rooms [of the temple]" - I can have confidence that He was, in fact, not there. When Jesus comes - it will be like lightning! Visible, public, and obvious!
@@GLM thank you! I feel so gullable and dumb for asking lol, I guess the LDS has no credible evidence of heavenly visitors or angels or John the Baptist or Peter James and John! It’s all Lies 🥺 damn!
@johnferredino5111 Those are good questions. If you read the accounts from the men that were there, they had all been instructed to fast all day and then they drank wine into the early morning hours. There was 'speaking of tongues and visions' claimed. So in my estimation this was not supernatural at all, more the result of the effects of fasting and alcohol, and the early 19th century culture at play.
@@johnferredino5111 No no, wasn't trying to make you feel dumb - especially not for asking! It's absolutely worth discussing these things and asking such questions!
@@GLMthis because he was talking to the Apostles in Matthew, not to you. Common core christians read the Bible like an encyclopedia.
This video raised a few questions, I'd like for you to address them:
1. Beware of false prophets. That's right, that's what Jesus taught. Who are the good prophets then? How do you distinguish them from the evil ones? Are they just the prophets mentioned in the Bible?
2. How do you know the Bible is true? Is it just historical fact? The testimony of living witnesses? First-hand authorship? Is it because it is a real translation of the original writings? How do you know that that is the case if an original manuscript has never been found?
3. If your testimony of the Bible is spiritual, come from the Holy Ghost, have you sought for that witness about the work written by Joseph Smith, or in other words, the works the Lord inspired Joseph Smith to write? If not, it probably is because you don't believe God could do such things these days and you deny His power. Plus, if you apply that method to the Bible but not to any other book, would you say God has ended His work of revealing Himself as He did in the Bible?
4. Are the books of the New Testament untrue because we already had the Old Testament?
5. How do you explain all the other prophecies Joseph Smith revealed that came true despite other people's belief in them?
6. How can you say the book of Abraham isn't exactly what Joseph translated? Is it because other scholars said so? Don't some of them also invalidate the truthness about the Bible and Jesus and we keep our belief in the Bible anyway? Isn't that what faith is for?
7. You blame the document not being true because Hgh Nibley wasn't able to give a translation of it to the public, but Hugh Nibley is a scholar, not a prophet. The further he could go would be as far as human power would allow. Just like with any miracle in the New Testament.
8. You literally say in the conclusion of your video that this highlights the problem with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that we take things subjectively. How is this any different to what any Christian saint in any denomination does? We just vary but what we take subjectively and what is literal. One example is baptism: we do take it literally that one must be baptized in water like Jesus did, according to the script, getting in the water then out of the water (immersion), while other Christian believe that this is just symbolic or that baptism is not needed altogether. There are many other examples. So this is not a problem, because in your own video you're trying to interpret passages of scriptures to your liking, independent of they literal meaning of words.
9. You say that the Bible shows a way to differentiate false prophets to real prophets but didn't say what that method is. Could you elaborate on that? You went on on just saying how latter-day saints are terrible for trying to interpret the word of God and not taking everything literally. We do study the Bible and, according to non-LDS studies, more than any other Christian denomination.
Here it goes. This is just a way to illustrate that indeed there are falsehoods out there and that we can choose to believe in them without real intended investigation. But that's alright. I'm not trying to convince anyone. That's the Holy Ghost's job and I'm thankful for that. However, on the last day, we'll be held accountable for the effort of lack thereof of seeking for truth, like in the parable of the woman who searched for the pearl of great price. She sold all she had to obtain it for she saw it as the most precious thing in the world (the truth).
The men you call prophets are NOT! Why else would they buy documents that they believed to be true from a counterfeiter and forger if they had the power of God with them. That's just common sense, and I don't need the Holy Ghost to confirm that to me.
@@MamallamaLindayou still have not answers those pertinent questions. i have another question, why did jacob who was the father of joseph not know that his sons were lying when they told him that joseph was devoured by beast? he was a prophet, was he not?
You are not much of a Critical Thinker…are you ?
why? @@leocrawfJoseph Smith got the Abraham translation 100 percent right. They are lying.ink utube (BOA ep 16) type in exact words to get there
@@leocrawfWhy? Link (Book of Abraham 7 polygamy) type in exact title to get there
This is one of the best breakdowns I've ever seen of this subject. This guy is one of my new favorite channels on Mormon history
You have to judge the book by what it says and not by what you want it to say.
Some history, in 1829 Joseph and Oliver are told by the Lord, "other records have I, that I will give unto you..." so they were anticipating something more to be given to them. On July 3rd of 1835 Joseph purchased the scrolls and they had to have been translated within weeks because the word Shinehah shows up in a heading in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants published by Aug 17th. However the Book of Abraham isn't published until 1842 and canonized in 1880.
Whoever edited these scrolls wrote in verse 14 "That you may have an understanding of these gods, I have given you the fashion of them in the figures at the beginning..…"
These types of scrolls were mass produced by scribes, it was a whole industry. Each person would buy different section like the Book of the Dead and glue them together, they found one that is 52 ft long. Then the owner would tell his scribe what he wanted in the picture of the embalming room.
Joseph had 4 scrolls, Oliver Cowdery described the scroll which contained the Book of Abraham as having black and red ink. Another non Mormon described seeing a walking snake but nothing matches what she described. It's obvious that we don't have the portion of a very long scroll which contained the Book of Abraham. Also the picture of the embalming room was not done by a professional scribe, the original is to crudely done.
from Abraham 3
2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;
10 And it is given unto thee to know the set time of all the stars that are set to give light, until thou come near unto the throne of God....
13And he said unto me: This is Shinehah, which is the sun."
"Beginning around 2350 BC, “the walls of the inner chambers and corridors of ancient Egyptian pyramids were inscribed with a series of ritual and magical spells” known today as the Pyramid Texts. “These inscriptions constitute the oldest body of Egyptian religious writings,” and were later copied “on tombs, sarcophagi, coffins, canopic chests, papyri, stelae, and other funerary monuments of nonroyal Egyptians."
These were not translated until 1952
The information was meant to help guide the dead person on journey following the path of the sun through the "celestial canal or waterway that bisected the sky into northern and southern hemispheres." The dead were being guide through this celestial waterway of stars to the afterlife as a glorified spirit.
This appears to be what the first part of chapter 3 is about, by following the stars until the dead person reached Kolob which is greatest of all.
Some have looked at this and see a corresponding likeness to our own temple worship, where we move through the Telestial to the Terrestrial and then reaching the Celestial. In chapter 1 it says the Pharaohs tried to copy the order which was in the beginning with Adam.
The word Shinehah has been found in the Pyramid text dating to the Middle Kingdom, 2040-1782 BC, thus in Abraham’s day. The word meant the sun’s ecliptic.
"You have to judge the book by what it says and not by what you want it to say."
Not if it's in a language you think no one knows, and you have seer stones and magic spectacles. With Urim and Thummim you absolutely can make a text say anything you want.
Mayor fall in reasoning quality @14:40. Before that, the video actually deals with objective facts relevant to The Book of Abraham. After, it's "a rot in the bones of the LDS church," which this creator feels based on his own faith. The history of Smith trying to translate the Egyptian before he was much aware of the Rosetta Stone, versus what what actual scholars learned later, is reasonably objective. The claim that the Bible gives us objective tests -- of which this creator names zero -- is just apologetic codswallop we've heard over and over before.
“The history of smith trying to translate the Egyptian…versus what actual scholars learned later is reasonably objective.” What does that even mean? The history is objective? You mean we can trust Joseph was right bc he had no reason to lie or something? Vs the scholars now?
@@vintifada7115 Ah, sorry I was not clear. I was not trying to say that Mormon mythohistory is anything like objective. I was saying that this video for several minutes before @14:40 was reasonably objective. Watching it again, in the first minute the video gave fair warning of our host's faith-based position, so no surprise in the well-foreshadowed fall in reasoning quality.
@@brygenon
Uh ok.
Well you’re Mormon apparently so I’m not surprised at your fail at objective reasoning 🤷🏼♂️
The Bible for you Mormons is also supposed to be sacred scripture and yet you’re rejecting it’s own claims to sidestep your own issues and attack so in a way you’re just all over the place trying to cope
I was very much part of Mormonism from the early 1980's ~ 2000's. I remember all the teachings we were given back then, with pictures showing Smith "translating" the golden plates at a table with the scribe on the other side, usually with a cloth hanging between them. How interesting that this was completely changed after the internet became more main stream from what most of us were shown and taught, to the "revised" version of Smith looking into a hat, and a picture of the "golden plates" near by, with a scribe in the scene as well.
It's so incredibly deceptive, as the LDS leadership continues to live in darkness and I believe some of them know they are peddling a false religion, but are not brave enough to set aside their pride and allow God to open their eyes. Jesus warned us that "many are called but few are chosen" and we were also warned how many would come before the Lord on the day of judgement, proclaiming to have done all sorts of things in Jesus name, only to hear those words "depart from me, I never knew you".
When we have a false theology, when you believe in a different Jesus, then you are condemning yourself to eternal separation from God in the end. Jesus warned us, and his disciples warned us of these very things we see in Mormonism. This isn't to say there are other false gospels being taught, such as JW's and Roman Catholicism, then we look at Islam, Buddhists, and so on.
When we walk away from the Bible and believe that it was somehow "corrupted" without validating the "proof" for yourself and testing everything said against the Bible, you open yourself up to believing in false doctrine which Paul warned us would happen to some. I can only imagine how many of the LDS faith are in hell today, wishing they had headed the warnings of Jesus, wishing they would have applied the tests of a prophet that God gives us in the Bible, but it is too late now =(
Church Fathers were all Catholic priests.
Early Christianity was all about the Mass.
The Bible did not exist until AD 382.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
You don’t make logical sense. You say Catholics teach false gospel but then you say you must test the Bible to see if it’s true and dont throw away the Bible. Like you do realize that Catholics made the Bible right? The dying Roman Empire. Also the Dead Sea scrolls some say support the Bible. Well they were like made in 200 ad. You need actual evidence from Christs time. Remember the dying Roman Empire used Christianity to remain In control but it also means they did book burnings and killed gnostic Christian’s etc.
@@koltoncrane3099 Did you know that a lot of the papyrus that was thought to have been lost in the Chicago fire were found in the 1960’s. The church was initially excited about the find but it was a bitter disappointment when it proved that Joseph couldn’t translate anything. And they suppressed that since 1967. Growing up I was always taught it was a translation, instead it’s a work of fiction.
Early Church Gnostic heresey carried on.
funny how the early church heretics were all the surviving 70 disciples and their children, and the bishop of rome decided he was most important and had epiphanius go out and claim ALL the other Christians were conveniently killing babies for the eucharist lol and then the church that was built on their bodies was a literal 2000 year old pedophile cult. funny that the "heretics" book was church doctrine 200 years before the bible was even compiles 😂😂😂
i mean if it wasnt the first 700 years of killing political enemies, paying for the papacy, bishops nephews, popes and bishops, popes literally having orgies with prostitutes in the bascilica (all accepted by the church, who decided hundreds of years later these were actual antipopes or just corrupt, but the whole church was so corrupt they didnt even a single random bishop to point to say "actually, he was a good guy, so he must have been the real pope"), its the past 1300 years of hundreds of acts of pedophilia each year, each time covered up by the church. the church has literally excommunicated thousands of people just for telling the truth about what the church did to them. you know the catholic church was around before christ was born? it was an organization setup by augustus to find a single religion for the entire roman empire. at first they favored bacchic mysteries and mythraic cults, but they saw how the real christians werent afraid to die, so they hired the biggest thugs to take over christianity. you know st peter walked around with a wand and claimed to be a magician? the first 2 hundred years of his portraits, he has a wand in his hand, and the original text of his battle with simon magis says that when simon started to float, he waved his wand - not prayed - and sent simon flying into the earth. he was literally practicing witch craft, and his successor sided with the roman's and allowed the militarization of the Christian faith, at the expense of those unfortunate few that believed the church was actually Christian community, turned on them, called them Heretics and claimed THEY were the ones doing witchcraft and every crazy, disgusting thing you could libel someone with. you know the only people who when theyre s.a.'ed the most likely culprit isnt their own family? (about 92% of all sexual assault against children is by their own family or a close friend of the family) nuns. nuns, for decades, were most likely to be sexually assaulted by priests! i mean, the pedophillia in the catholic church goes as far back as the publics been allowed vatican records! and you're just gunna believe them about their accounts of heresy?
Well, ABSOLUTELY! But you'd be hard-pressed to find an LDS person who knows a fig about Gnosticism, Platonism, or the teachings of Cerinthus, or the teachings of Arius, etc. (Shoot-most evangelical Christians don't have a clue about this either.) The LDS church & the Jehovah's Witnesses are basically re-treads of these old heresies & pagan philosophies, but because they (a) don't study the truth of the Bible, and (b) they don't study history, they are easy prey for this kind of spiritual deception. They call the orthodox church "apostate" without even knowing what the church believed back in the era of the Apostles, Church Fathers, etc.
As a current Mormon who is “soul searching”, educating myself on ALL viewpoints (“good” and “bad”) of Mormonism, all while meditating, praying and researching philosophy, theology and religious history, I am starting to believe that the LDS church might not be “true”. I’m left in the same shoes that Joseph Smith was when he asked “which of all the churches is the true church?”
You mention at the end of your video that if Smith wasn’t a prophet, then the Great Apostasy didn’t happen, hence there’s no need for a “Restoration”, but would that mean then that the Catholic Church is the “correct” or “true” church of God? Or the Eastern Orthodox? What about any of the Protestants? The church of Ethiopia? I have researched them and find issues with those as well. No Christian church has a pretty history, and it seems like every one has some sort of variation from what Jesus actually did and taught. For example, Catholics don’t baptize by immersion, but Jesus was indeed baptized by being immersed. Thus, if all I need is “the Bible” to “save” me, then how do I follow Jesus? Who should baptize me? Who has that authority?
No authority is required to baptize someone. As to discounting churches because they might have something wrong… I would start with identifying what is the central message of the Gospel as outlined in the Bible, and then what are other teachings that cannot be compromised on. These are the things you’ll want to prioritize when looking for a church. I’ve personally found it helpful to remember the three D’s: Die, Defend, Discuss
There are teachings we do not compromise on. This is the hill we die on. Then there are teachings we debate / defend because they have important implications. We may not discount another’s faith over them, but we may want to attend a church where we can most align on these issues. Then there are issues we discuss and over which we can have undeterred fellowship with our fellow Christians.
In the original Greek, church was "ekklesia", which means "called out body/assembly". It is not about a mortal institution. God is the authority. At Christ's crucifixion, the veil in the temple was torn, which symbolises that the distance between believers and God was removed by His once and for all sacrifice for sin, making us right with God, and giving us a new identity in Christ. We can "boldly approach the throne of grace" because we are in Christ, without having to continually offer sacrifices and adhere to the Law -- and all the Law and Prophets were always pointing towards Christ's coming sacrifice, and deeds of the Law didn't have power on their own, in any case (Heb 10:4). Christ is our eternal High Priest, and in Him, old things are done away and all things are made new, and believers also will be made new, once they believe and are born again. The Law was perfectly fulfilled by His finished work, and now, all any person has to do to receive salvation is to believe in Christ. Believe that, as the Bible records, He said "I AM", identifying Himself as the un-created, eternal God, which made the self-righteous religious people of the time, trusting in their own institutions, authority, and perceived "goodness", want to stone Him for what they thought to be "blasphemy". Believe, as the Bible records, He said "the gates of hell will not prevail against his church" (assembly of believers called out of the world). Believe that He said on the cross, "tetelestai / "it is finished / paid in full". Believe that He said to believe in Him and we would have eternal life.
John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Eph 2: 8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Romans 11:6, “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
Romans 4:3-5, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
2 Cor: 3-4, "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."
Gal 1: 6-9, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
If you read the Bible believing that God is greater than His Creation, and therefore, is able to preserve His word so men could know Him and be saved, then all of these uncertainties and worries will be resolved. He promised He would preserve His word. Matthew 24:35, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” He loves us so much that He made salvation so simple, that a small child can understand it, or a foreigner without much second language ability. The eternal God left His throne in heaven, took flesh upon Him, being born as a man, living a sinless life, and then shedding His blood on the cross as a once and for all sacrifice for sin. He rose on the third day, and his finished work has conquered sin and death. He said "it is finished". All we have to do is believe Him, and receive of His abounding grace and love, and be saved.
The Book of Mormon claims that "many plain and precious things were lost out of the Bible." But the plainest and most precious thing is this simple gospel of grace. Satan tempted Eve with the same thing that caused his fall -- pride. He wished to elevate himself above the skies and exalt himself as his own god. Satan's pride, and his lie in the Garden, is now the same false gospel the the LDS religion teaches -- the LDS doctrine of exaltation. Isaiah 46:9, “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,” Isaiah 44: 8 "[...]Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."
Ecclesiastes 7:20, “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.”
Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
1 John 1:8, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
Isaiah 64:6, “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”
Mark 10:18, “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”
Only God is good. That is why we need His righteousness. We can receive it imputed to us, by grace through faith, by believing in Christ's finished work. This is the only way to be saved. Romans 3:20, 28, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” & "28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
The LDS religion adds so many requirements. It takes men from "the simplicity that is in Christ". It also alters the identity of Christ. If you are hungering for truth and to seek God, then the best thing you can do is read the Bible with the mind of a child. Without using any external sources to interpret or alter the words there, read what you find. The bottom line is: will you believe in a God who is Almighty and is able to preserve His word so that men might know Him, or will you believe a man's word, 1800 years later, saying that God failed in the promises recorded in the Bible (that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, and God's words will never pass away)? Will you believe Jesus Christ, or Joseph Smith?
Will be praying for you 🙏
I am orthodox Christian. We are closest to the Christianity of the early centuries
If you can't find one that is true, may I submit the idea that none of them are true?
Well done, sir.
Thank you - I pray it's a helpful overview of the issues at hand!
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
Ok, Here's proof that this is all smoke and mirrors Smith got the translations 100 percent right.link.itube title (BOA ep 16) type in exact title
the dead scrolls arent the oldest old testament scripts, theyre the oldest COMPLETE collection if books from the old testament. we have plenty of other fragments, most of them seeming to be originally in Greek, as Hebrew was like Latin - it was mostly liturgical, and Greek was the lingua franco of the region for a long, long time
Very succinct. Even though we didn’t learn about the recovery of the manuscript, I remember looking at these drawings in LDS seminary and just thinking, yeah, I get why people thought this was a little too convenient. It was really JS’s polygamy that put me in a major faith crisis that year, the the Egyptian funeral texts did not help. Especially since I’d read quite a bit about the Rosetta Stone by that point, so all kinds of alarm bells were going off.
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
Ya Joseph’s polygamy definitely turns off a lot of people. Listen to Jordon Maxwell and how he’s read that Babylonian Talmud says the Jews believe child marriage is fine. I think they said some
Parts of Islam does similar things.
Then ya got the Jewish kaballah saying there’s 23 gods with one big god.
Oh anyways I was going to say do you support Abraham or Isaac or Jacob whoever doing polygamy in the Bible? I remember seeing lots of people leave Mormonism but then remain a Bible thumper. It’s like if you believe in the Bible you’re also supporting polygamy basically. Heck Jacob married sisters I believe.
God killed Judah’s two sons for not consummating their marriage to their sister in law and then Judah did the deed. Like there’s messed up polygamy in the Bible too. It’s why I find it weird people leave Mormonism but then promote polygamy by promoting the Bible.
@@koltoncrane3099nice copy/paste, bud.
@@koltoncrane3099 well, that’s the Old Testament. Not the New Testament. If polygamy was necessary to living a Christian life, one wonders why Jesus never mentioned it. I’m not terribly religious and I don’t really go in for Biblical literalism, but I do think it’s important to see the hypocrisy for what it is with regard to JS. Just a con man who wanted power, money and women.
See Translation and Historicity of The Book of Abraham, a response by Dr. Robert K. Ritner, professor of Egyptology, University of Chicago, 2014
Mormonism is cringe
You did a fantastic job on this my brother.
The Book of Mormon itself is a book given through revelation. Often times Joseph Smith would look into a hat and the words would appear with the golden plates only being near him at the time. In truth many Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint practices are done in a similar way. Baptism is simply a symbolic representation of washing away sins, the sacrament is a symbolic representation of taking of the body and blood of Christ. The concreted olive oil is also a representing. In fact the Church states that when giving a blessing of the sick and afflicted oil is not needed but preferred. All these things from the bread and water, to baptism to the oil and even the hat Joseph Smith used are simply methods or tools used to help our faith and revelation from God.
I can't tell if you are being facetious or you just don't realize how crazy what you just wrote is. (But just in case it's the latter: folks, this is NOT how God works.)
Great video! I meet with some LDS missionaries next Tuesday. 😊
May the Lord bless your meeting!
Okay well if you're using this, then you're going to think you won, but didn't. They won't care. I've seen both sides of this, and the church of Jesus Christ has a very good position still on the book of Abraham. And and even stronger passion on the book of Enoch.
GLM lives here in Utah and is just trying to get money for his church.
@@clearstonewindowsare you able to provide the very good position the church has on the BoA? I see where GLM provides screenshots with what appear to be from the official church website on here, curious if you are referring to a completely different explanation.
@@rmac9177 Yes there are lots of articles on FAIR
Okay this video isn’t objective just looking at the comments. An objective video would say yes parts of the survived papyrus are from the book of the dead. But 90% of the papyrus were BURNED IN A FIRE in a museum. It’s impossible to be objective if it’s destroyed.
I would agree with you if all the papyrus that Joseph bought still existed today let’s examine it and talk about it. But it doesn’t all exist so you can’t be objective about it using it to prove or disprove the church.
Like I’m trying to be unbiased and just say what I’ve read over the last few years and most of the papyrus was burned in a museum fire.
“… with God all things are possible.” - Matthew 19:26
“…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” - Judges 1:19
Judah could not drive out the inhabitants of valley it doesn't refer to Yahweh.
@@stls800 so Matthew 19:26 is a lie?
@@codeman966 No it's true. "could not drive out" propably refers to Judah. Yahweh just didn't help them in this case
@Tuskoid88 but the lord was with him.
@@codeman966 Sure, it doesn't mean he had to help them at conquering whatever they wanted. In the tora God says that the conquest will happen gradually
I’m a 24 year old living in Utah but grew up mormon in VA. My parents raised me mormon, made me serve a mission, I even ended up getting sealed in the temple. When I started asking questions and learning the true history of who Joseph Smith actually was and what he actually taught. I realized the church was not the church I thought it was when I was a younger. Since that realization I’ve decided I’m gonna raise my family mormon too ;)
ruclips.net/video/hxPzpbJnyKk/видео.html * That link is to a different qualified scholars interpretation on RUclips video based on new discoveries in Egypt. We need to be objective and fair by considering new modern discoveries in Egypt that seem to give credence to what Smith claimed and that shows past Egyptologists did not have a full understanding. We need to be honest and not bias and prejudice, unlike woke political new journalists who have an agenda.
@@jessehill8623 your post doesnt make sense - or was it a typo. You said you realized it wasnt the church you thought it to be and then said you were going to raise your family as mormons? Did you really mean that?
@@Valhalla369 he had us in the first half, ngl
I was raised Mormon in Utah. I have never felt the "spirit," even as a young impressionable 8 year old. Of course, I was baptized to please my parents. You should understand that the absence of these special feelings have caused me to dig deeper into the history of the church, and then apply the same measuring stick to the other religions. I am an atheist now. My favorite verse from the LDS scriptures come from The Articles of Faith, verse 11.
You will never find truth or true church history from inside the mormon corporation. They whitwash the history they didn't like and call it "anti-mormon propaganda." There is a reason mormons have to recite "I know the church is true..." literally all the time. If you repeat it enough you will start to believe it. By the way, have you shopped at the City Creek Mall in SLC that your tithing dollars paid for?
Thank you for your objective, information based statements/conclusions on this.
I did not leave the mormon church because of this issue but in hindsight, it just made me laugh to find out how much garbage this was. Absolutely ridiculous. Even into my late 30's in the mormon church I had never heard that the original papyrus existed. It was certainly never mentioned by any family, in any church setting, "seminary", or Sunday school class. I attended some private study classes with some very "educated" guest speakers who covered this subject but did not mention what I would later find out were commonly known issues with this "translation". I'm also old enough to remember alot of what was taught in the LDS world that seems to have, uh, not remained popular. The good old days of having your "calling and election made sure" are not a thing so much.
18:27 thats so true. Mormons think that if you leave the church you're leaving Jesus our turning away from God. If you are saved through Jesus and have entered into His body, also called the church, just because you decide to leave the lies doesn’t mean you're leaving the Truth.
Thanks for your view on this.
Let's address some of the issues with these arguments.
The manuscripts
The manuscript that was found is only 13% of what Joseph Smith originally had. With the discovery of dozens of examples of Egyptian priests being buried with a variety of texts written one after the other on the same scroll, it is not just feasible but likely that Joseph Smith possessed scrolls with Book of the Dead (and other) texts ALONG WITH records. This is common.
The supposed age of the papyrus is also not an issue. While his words may be interpreted that way, careful analysis of what Joseph said reveals that he never claimed to have the exact papyrus that Abraham wrote on, only that the words were “written by his (Abraham's) own hand, upon papyrus.” It is possible that Joseph had a copy of Abraham's writing. Even if he did claim this, prophets have made minor mistakes such as this even in the Bible. The only perfect life was Jesus, and He works through imperfect servants.
The translation
With the manuscript issue out of the way (likely that Joseph translated the written portions of the record from manuscripts we do not have) this leads us to the argument of incorrect translation of the facsimiles. Careful study of the facsimiles reveals that not only did Joseph correctly translate most of what it meant, he actually extracted deeper meaning and context than a literal translation of the facsimiles. For example, Joseph Smith defined Fig.6 in Facsimile No.2, as the "earth in its four quarters." Critics try to cover
up his correct translation by arguing that Fig.6 instead represents the four canopic jars, which
symbolize the four sons of Horus. Research beyond such a superficial explanation reveals that those
four sons of Horus represented the four quarters of the earth. There are a myriad of other examples of this throughout the facsimiles.
My point is, if you are looking for a reason to leave the church, you can find it by listening to people who mislead and lie. If you are intellectually honest with yourself, you will not find a doctrinal reason to leave the church. You can look at both sides of an issue and come out with greater truth. That is why I watched this video (and found it deeply lacking.) Thank you for helping me learn though and I appreciate the care and love you have. God bless you
Quick response - (I combined a couple other responses I made down below)
Agreed that some papyrus bits were lost. But - why do the first few rows characters from the extant papyrus match perfectly with the lines from Joseph's Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar - along with references to Abraham and translational notes for the Book of Abraham? (Worth noting that this particular papyrus fragment is also immediately adjacent to the fragment containing Facsimile #1)
By the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, it seems we have total proof that Joseph was looking at certain specific characters on papyri that we have, and getting incorrect "translations" of them.
The fact that we don’t have all of the bits that Joseph had doesn't change the essential issue - what we DO have, the extant part of the manuscript that Joseph used - has nothing to do with Abraham or Joseph (or Enoch).
If Abraham really wrote this "by his own hand, upon papyrus" as Joseph claimed (to compound the issue-see also my notes about Joseph claiming that this was the “handwriting of Abraham,” the “autograph of Moses,” and other lines be written by “his brother Aaron”) then we should see some reference to any of their works there-especially given Joseph’s use of these particular characters in the Grammar and Alphabet. Why would Abraham write down parts of the "Book of Breathing" and "Book of the Dead"?
I am a Christian - so I absolutely believe in miracles and prophets...I just also think that the provided evidence shows that Joseph fails the test for being a legitimate prophet.
@GLM
Thanks for the reply.
1st point
If this is true (I'll need to see a source. Sorry if it is in the video, I can't rewatch it right now) Joseph Smith had the entire collection of Papyri together when he purchased them (obviously). The copy of characters from one fragment on the same page of notes from another fragment seems pretty normal to me and definitely not evidence that the papyrus we have is the papyrus the Book of Abraham was on.
2nd and 3rd point
Egyptian priests of the time were often buried with a variety of different
texts all written on the same papyrus roll, one after the other (For example, a fragmentary
eighteenth-dynasty Book of the Dead in Cairo [JE 95575] contains account texts on the front side
[recto]. Papyrus Vandier also has a Book of the Dead on the verso [back side] but on the recto contains the story of Meryre who [as in the Book of Abraham] was sacrificed on an altar, these
are 2 of dozens and dozens of examples). This would explain the common burial
practices of putting in the book of the dead and book of breathings. But it doesn’t mean that these
were the only books included, because we only have 13% of the papyrus that Joseph Smith
owned. That means that over 3/4 of the original papyrus is missing. Which gives plenty of
evidence that there were other writings on the papyrus rolls.
@@GLMNo. 97% was lost, not a few bits. And how can you claim to be "total proof" of what Joseph was looking at? Are you a seer now?
@@justjamie6458 He probably doesn't have a seer stone or a hat to look through. This is how we get true revelation.
@@reaganlecroy7773 no. We get revelation from God. The urum and thumim were for or interpreters were used for transportation.
“This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.” - Genesis 17:10
“…if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” - Galatians 5:2
Hmm, contradicting.
This is not a contradiction at all. One covenant ceased and a new one began. This is very clearly spelled out in great detail in the Nee Testament.
@@BNichols021
I have seen the video and gave a confusion answer that was not clear. So then the bible is not perfect if it's not crystal clear on what is truth. I have as much authority to interpret the bible as I see as does GLM does
@@BNichols021the bible can be interpreted a million ways
This isn’t a contradiction at all actually. Those of the covenant were circumcised as a manifestation of that fact. But being in the covenant or being circumcised never saved anyone even in the Old Testament.
In the New Testament, those of the covenant are commanded to be baptized, but baptism doesn’t save us at all. There’s never been a contradiction here and it’s actually pretty simple.
@@codeman966 "I have as much authority to interpret the bible as I see as does GLM does"
Exactly! Without prophets and apostles, you have the same exact authority to interpret as anyone!
Very well done!
As there are those called to witness of Christ on the streets, some in muslim countries, and some in their neighborhood or on the internet - so there are some called to fellowship with Mormons and love them and witness of Jesus Christ in church with them. This is a difficult calling in some ways, but a joy in others.
I don't know anyone else who fellowships with LDS people because they want to present a loving witness to them. I have often wondered if I'm maybe doing something "over the line" by going to their churches, etc. It's nice to hear: this is an actual "category" of evangelism. I'm encouraged to not be alone in this. Thank you!
@@Daniel_McD Great success, much fruit, and God's Blessings in your witness of the Good News of God's Grace, His Gift of His Son, His forgiveness, and His incomprehensible Love! Perhaps one day I'll hear your story.
Very good video
Great video - there are a couple of typos in the CC that you might want to fix. Also, towards the end, you describe why the subjective aspects of belief and personal experience undermine the integrity of LDS faith, then in your next sentence you say “in my experience…” which I found funny. You might want to edit that to say something like “I have observed…” instead.
Really good stuff, though, which I plan to promote to my Comparative Religion students.
The pearl of great lies...
I have always had an issue with the book of Abraham, I have called it BS. As the papyrus has been proven to not be what Smith said it was. It definitely is a thorn in the church’s butt. I have attempted to read it but I can’t, unfortunately it plays a big part in going through the temple. It will never go away as it would destroy the whole meaning of the temple. So the church has to defend it no matter what.
Joseph Smith was a true prophet!!
He was a Freemason who believed in sorcery (seer stones and talismans)
You misspelled "profit." He was a convicted conman and a pedophile who raped 14 year old girls and took over 40 wives. Open your eyes. You will never find truth inside the billion-dollar mormon corporation, regardless how many times you try to convince yourself by repeating "I know this is true because...." I don't blame you, I know how hard it is to leave. I do hope you find truth and peace one day.
Yes, He was. Thank you and I love you for having the courage to stand up for it.
In what way??? LDS people never qualify this statement! What about him was "true"?
He had 34 wives.
Over 1/3 of them were teenage girls-some as young as 14 or 15.
He told girls they could get their families to heaven by agreeing to marry him.
If anything was true about him, its that he was: a womanizer, an adulterer, and sexual predator who had learned to groom girls & their families. He used his "office" to take advantage of others who had put their trust in him.
I'm still waiting for his prophecy about the "Great Lamanite Reversal" to come true! (3 Nephi 20)
He found a way to get everyone's money-either from his bank or his mandatory tithes-and he still got other people to pay for the acquisition of these papyrii!
And he figured out how to get everyone who followed him to put him at the top of everything. In spite of the fact that (as William Law stated): "We know for a fact that he broke 7 of the 10 commandments." By 1844 he got himself ordained as: "King of the Earth", "a god to this generation" who "presides over the Spirit World". Anybody who disagreed was bullied into submission or bounced from the church & labeled "apostate"-no matter how high up they went in the hierarchy.
I don't know by what qualities you recognize "a true prophet", but I can tell you there are 4 big ones that define a false prophet: (1) desire for pre-eminence, (2) desire for the attentions/affections of the opposite sex, (3) desire for gain/wealth, and (4) a false prophecy.
I agree and Testify. Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God. The Prophet called to restore His Church in the latter days.
The “matching” images you compare to show sarcophagi while facsimile 1 is showing the sacrifice of a live person.
Faith isn’t supposed to be physically testable. That’s why it’s faith. Have you read the Book of Mormon?
It’s nice of you to want to help the Mormon church. The church seems to be doing fine, growing.
only in Mormonism is faith belief in something in spite of evidence to the contrary.
Solid summery. I look forward to future videos on this subject!
Young man, you have done a good job of refuting the Book of Abraham. I also have read and studied it. I appreciate your integrity and the candor in your effort. And I believe what you have said here. Do you think that you can refute the Bible just as you have done the Book of Abraham, with integrity and candor, using historical and literary facts? As a former professor of the Old and New Testaments, today, I feel about the Bible as you do the the Book of Abraham. My present understanding is that both books are works of men trying to control what other men think and say and believe about gods. I accept neither of them as inspired work. It appears to me that you have the makings of a scholar. You may have to learn to be a bit more willing to start your higher education by a willingness use the scientific method as you make your arguments: can I prove my assumption? Can I disprove my assumption? Is there evidence in my world to make or refute my argument? Any argument that requires a supernatural explication, is beyond your world and cannot be proven true or false. Whenever someone makes a declarative statement that you are not sure about, always ask that some one, "How do you know that?" That question will be your first step to becoming a critical thinker, my friend
Very much well done ! In fact, the BOA is the major proof that JS was a impostor !
This should be an absolute dealbreaker. The only way around it is cognitive dissonance.
So who's the real tru prophet on the earth today, preaching the word of god and being his mouthpiece?
💯
Excellent video! You showed the claims that the LDS church makes today and how it contradicts the BOA, therefore making the claims redundant. I also *love* how you explained at the end that many LDS justify the church by personal experiences through prayer, revelation, miracles, etc. I’ve seen someone do *exactly that* on a channel called Missionary Universe. Props to u
So, you’re trying to convert those in one cult over to another cult?
Define cult.
@@gatecrashercanadamb religion
@@alpo6668 having faith in a supernatural power is a cult?
@@gatecrashercanadamb no, the religion that governs your faith and all those in that same religion.
@@alpo6668 I don’t have a religion that “governs” my faith.
Better to leave sooner than later. This video is exactly the reason I left. Proof beyond a shadow of doubt the prophet JS was a false prophet and had no first vision and the rock in the hat to "translate " is icing on the cake.
"Better to leave sooner than later."
And best on a Tuesday before noon.
@@thomasmaughan4798 lucky
Your ending statement was spot on!
I'm sorry but you're mistaken. Most LDS people continue to revere Joseph Smith and are not overly critical of the Book of Abraham or it's origins. Most members assume that Joseph Smith experienced a variety of spiritual encounters which are not all recorded. Indeed, as the Prophet of the Last Dispensation, we assume that Joseph had personal knowledge and devine contact with the Lord's prophets of antiquity and many others, some of which are recorded in the D&C and History of the Church.
So sorry to disappoint you, but most "Mormons" are not shaken by existing fragments of a set of lost scrolls, especially those who have taken the time to research the question for themselves.
It's a subject I've never heard raised in Church.
You're suffering from a case of wishful thinking. Believe me, any increase in apostasy in the "Mormon" Church is caused by the same reasons it's happening among Evangelical Christians..
You wish...where you been?😊
This is the most desperate, sad, and brainwashed response ever written. But, it’s good you are here to hear the truth. Keep listening, keep searching, and good luck to you on your deconstruction from the Mormon faith.
This is simple logic. If these are indeed the papyri that Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Abraham from-and the LDS church affirms that they are-and Joseph said that they were written in the handwriting of Abraham himself, yet Egyptologists all concur that the text on these manuscripts has absolutely nothing to do with Abraham but are instead a common pagan funerary text that they've seen many times before, then you are left with only two conclusions:
Joseph Smith either (A) knowingly perpetrated fraud, or (B) was deluded into believing that he could actually read it. He was either a liar or a lunatic. There isn't a third choice.
Either way, God told us in the Bible that a prophet doesn't get second chances. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and 18:20-22 are very clear that if a prophet makes ONE mistake, they are false. Period. And in the New Testament we are also commanded multiple times to put prophets to the TEST, not blindly revere them and follow what they tell us.
@@TheAutisticApologist well said! It’s always interesting (in a sad way) to see the rationalization that will follow from here.
@mikespage0123 I'm sorry if the truth is painful for you to hear, but he numbers of converts around the world, continues to grow. There are currently fifty-two new temples under construction right now and another ninety-seven, which have been announced. The LDS Church currently has 345 temples in over 160 different countries, speaking more than 178 different languages. The Book of Mormon has been translated into at least 113 languages.
Whatever you're witnessing is only your point of view and far from the whole picture.
why would the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints need to "recover" from the truth ?
Fun fact: the facsimiles are not what Joseph Smith translated from
Right, he didn’t translate anything - just made it all up or weaved a bunch of plagiarized works together. You can tell because 1769 KJV Bible characteristics are duplicated in the BoM among other comparisons to early 1800 literary works.
Yes...right...but the papyrus bit that was right next to Facsimile #1 (Joseph Smith Papyrus IX and X) almost certainly is.
@@GLM over 90% of the papyrus has been lost.
@@CourtMcMullin But that doesn't change the essential issue - what we DO have, the extant part of the manuscript that Joseph used - has nothing to do with Abraham or Joseph (or Enoch).
If Abraham really wrote this "by his own hand, upon papyrus" as Joseph claimed, then we should see some reference to something there.
Why would Abraham write *by his own hand* parts of the "Book of Breathing" and "Book of the Dead"?
I am a Christian - so I absolutely believe in miracles and prophets...I just also think that the provided evidence shows that Joseph fails the test for being a legitimate prophet.
Yet the facsimiles are in the Pear of Great price and scripture!
You quickly list a few concepts found in the text of the Book of Abraham. But you did not discuss any of them, nor express why they are objectionable. Very weak analysis.
Yes, the point of the video wasn't to evaluate the content of the BoA, but explain the controversy with the papyri. I hope to do another video soon where I deal more in depth with the controversial content - that just wasn't the point of *this* video.
You packaged the video so nicely most won't see your lie of omission. There were two scrolls one 18ft and the other 20ft. The entire thing was not returned to the church and translated only10 scraps. And you don't tell your viewers that a version of Egyptian lion couch scene with Abraham's name on it has been found.
Everything you said here is true. However, while Protestant Evangelicalism is undeniably in a better position than Mormonism, by and large holding to the Trinity and other biblical doctrines more faithfully, it all shares some of the same weaknesses.
For example, it in effect requires belief in a Great Apostasy. That the Church feel away until being gradually restored starting at the Reformation and continuing through the present.
In reality, however, the Church has continued to exist and teach the apostolic faith since the beginning. The Orthodox Church never went anywhere.
Working on a video right now that deals with why I don't believe in a "Great Apostasy" as a Protestant - and why I don't think that's contradictory.
Forthcoming!
I like everything you say here, I grew up Mormon and served a full mission, but as I studied I came to realize the surface level information I'd been taught my whole life was only that surface level and false. Learning logic and reason and understanding fallacy helped me determine facts. However, you make a claim that the Bible has objective facts and that I challenge you on. It has the same kind of flaws and is subjective. Like you said in your video we don't even have signatures and don't know who actually wrote it. The stories are copied from other stories so it's not even first-hand accounts. Even first hand testimony is really poor evidence, so I challenge you to use the same logic and reason and not accept the Bible as miraculous. It's just some stories that we can't confirm.
I applaud you! Wow. You’re super rare to leave Mormonism using logic but then you don’t become a Bible thumper cause you continue to use logic and question the Bible just like people do Mormonism.
Yes even the Dead Sea scrolls were like written 200 ad way after Christ died. Even the calendar putting Christ at year zero the calendar was made in like 527 ad by the Catholics.
Ya it’s so funny. People be like Joseph couldn’t have found the gold plates and just ran with them it’s to heavy. But those same people be like ya Moses departed the waters of the Red Sea and had curses happen on Egypt. Haha so funny.
It’s like if you call Moses a magician for turning his stick into a snake people be like no he’s a prophet so it’s okay but its witch craft if anyone else does it.
As a translator, I wonder how Abraham could write such a document in Egyptian characters. I mean, I find difficult sometimes to write in English. I mean, if I had to write a document, I would choose a language that I am acquainted with. Why Abraham would choose to write this document in hieroglyphics? He was from Chaldea, thus, I would have written the document in Chaldean language if I was Abraham.
"I would have written the document in Chaldean language if I was Abraham."
In a list of 500 objections; that's down around 497 I think. Why is so much of the bible written in GREEK when none of the disciples (so far as I know) were Greek?
I don't know. It is what it is.
@@thomasmaughan4798 because Greek was the lingua franca of that time. Was Abraham familiar with the written form of Egyptian?
@@honurapanui "because Greek was the lingua franca of that time."
Yes! Exactly. Even if you are not Greek. Abraham would use the "lingua franca"
This has been far debunked. Joseph translated from LONG scrolls! The manuscripts we have are evidently not the full book Joseph used. I am sorry that you go against our (and more importantly Christ’s) church. But, nonetheless, may God bless you greatly! 😁🙏
Great to see you here seeking truth! Good luck in your Mormon faith deconstruction ❤
Alright... Agreed some papyrus bits were lost. But - why does the characters from the extant papyrus match perfectly with the lines from Joseph's Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar - along with references to Abraham and translational notes for the Book of Abraham? That particular papyrus fragment is also immediately adjacent to Facsimile #1...
By the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, we have total proof that Joseph was looking at certain specific characters on papyri that we have, and getting incorrect "translations" of them...
Would love to hear your thoughts on that
@@mikespage0123 … deconstruction? I just converted. Anyways I just like to watch videos that critique my ideas so that I can know if they stand to the test. Thank you for your concern. 😁
@@GLM I do agree that Joseph claimed to have used the fragment or at least a copy of the same document. However I also know that our God is (though many suggest otherwise lol) what I believe to be an accommodating God! For example He allowed Joseph to use seer stones he already had. So as for the facsimile I believe that God showed Joseph new meanings that could be drawn from the image. This also stands doubly as a test for my faith! In other words will I believe the God pulling me toward Joseph or the men pulling me away? Definitely interesting philosophically assuming Joseph IS a prophet, this can definitely reveal the character of Heavenly Father! 😁🙏
In the 1st Chapter it says this-
And it came to pass that the priests laid violence upon me, that they might slay me also, as they did those virgins upon this altar; and that you may have a knowledge of this altar, I will refer you to the representation at the commencement of this record.
The record that was included, facsimile 1, has been proven to not correspond at all with what the chapter and Joseph Smith said occurred. So, how can the Book of Abraham be true? It makes no difference how it was translated or if it was long scrolls or pieces of papyrus if it is not true and the facsimile does not correspond at all with the translated text.
Why do I get the feeling that Joseph Smith cut out the missing parts of the image himself? It's a huge coincidence that all the crucial details of the image like Annubis head or the bird over the body just happen to be the missing parts.
it was burned in a fire. what we have are the remains that were donated back to the church.
@@leocrawfIt may have been burned, but the heads of figures were missing and BroJoe did sketches ‘reconstructing’ the missing parts. I assumed they were lost through age/decay, but the idea of Joe doing it himself is intriguing. I doubt the church will allow any legit scientists and scholars to study it any more.
GLM may just spend their eternity in Heaven trying to prove Mormons wrong. That is their choice, and they will reap the consequences of their actions. They are already reaping the consequences of their actions. They are creating a people that will continue into the eternities trying to prove Mormons wrong....and the cycle continues...
Mormons will continue into eternity trying to do what God asks them to do and continuing to learn to love ALL mankind.
That's an interesting view. Are you aware of what Jesus Christ teaches in the book of Luke? Chapter 14:26. Chapter 17:10. John 15:5 will maybe explain to you why you are still "trying". That's not what Jesus has in mind for those he loves. Matthew 11:29-30 is what he has for you, if you'll accept it & forsake your own efforts to obtain his favor. Otherwise, Romans 10:3 applies to you, my friend.
I'm not trying to "disprove Mormons". The Bible already does that. I am just trying to get LDS folks to read it and THINK. Nothin' but love for you! I hope you succeed in your goal of being like Jesus. You've got to give up your own efforts first. I am only HIS workmanship, for in my flesh there dwells no good thing. (Ephesians 2:8-10 / Philippians 3:2-11 / Romans 3:20 & 4:5) May the Lamb of God draw you closer through the power of the Holy Spirit.
@@Daniel_McD ok. No offense but you sound a little ridiculous. Are you saying that you do NOT try to be like Jesus? Like, you eat, drink, be merry and sin all you want because Jesus saves you from it all? I am confused. Are you NOT putting any effort into becoming like Jesus, repenting when you do wrong, loving your fellow man, following the 10 commandments etc?
It's sad that a highly educated person does not understand what it means to be a seer. When Joseph translated this document he was simply shown what the original author meant to say. Joseph had no knowledge of ancient languages, and neither did he need knowledge.
Joseph smith wore a Saturn gem necklace around his neck which means he was a Warlock
Hahaha, a,translator does not make up things that are not translations, a seer must be able to correctly translate, otherwise, he's not a seer.
Stop making up excuses for a con artist
There is no precedent for this in all of Christian or Hebrew tradition or writings.
The only things remotely similar to this are what the Egyptian & Babylonian magicians did.
I would love to see you do a video about why the Bible talks about the Book of Jasher but it isn't in the Bible. Mainstream Christians just say it wasn't important. Well if the missing scriptures aren't important than why are they in the Bible?
There are several other old religious texts that are not included in The Bible. I don’t remember the details but essentially some group of guys who considered themselves to be lead religious leaders decided which books they wanted “in” the official Book, and which ones to set aside for whatever reasons.