Thank you for being intellectually honest and reasonable... and respectful... unlike what my pastor colleagues are doing with their street thing. sigh... You're the man, David Snell.
I feel like they need to talk to you before talking about our Church. You actually have a good understanding of what we believe while still not of our faith.
@@spideyN8R I think they should read the Book of Mormon, sincerely pray to the God of their Bible to know whether it's true before they can talk about our Church. It is the keystone to our religion and most if not all don't even afford it that much.
Matthew 7 :1-5 " Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." This is the reason why non latter day saints who called themselves Christian, are also known as modern day hypocrites. Jesus warn us not to judge unjustly. Yet, this Evangelicals who profess to know Christ, never knew Christ by way they act.
Realize, that one of the major teachings of the church was that we would become Gods and receive our own planet(s). This seems to not be taught these days in the church, but was a major selling point in the church just 20 years ago. I think talk of this was pulled when it became apparent that it seemed “weird” among mainstream christianity
@@4verage417yes! Just like changes in the temple ceremony when they become socially inappropriate, allow blacks in the priesthood when the pressure is on, and on and on and on. You also don’t hear much about the importance of food storage any more. It used to be hugeeee!
@@roublerattv3793exactly!!! That used to be a huge selling proposition of the church. “As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become”. This was taught from the pulpit, now it’s been all but discarded!!!
With regard to the 'magical underwear' insult (it is an insult, let's not dress it up in nicer clothes), I wonder how these good people would feel if a Buddhist or an atheist were make fun of the crosses so many of them wear. I'm sure they would consider such remarks to be totally out of bounds. Similarly, I doubt any of them would openly make fun of a man wearing a Jewish Kippah (yarmlke). Nor would they make fun of a Hassidic Jew's traditional religious clothing. They wouldn't make fun of Jewish clothing because they know it would make them seem bigoted. Making fun of our temple garments just puts their bigotry on display.
Nobody insults the special jews, bankers, financiers and powerful ones, so loved by all the world. But all the atheists and apostates target saints, proof that we have the true gospel.
This is truly the best response I’ve ever seen to anti. It’s so calm cool and collected. Right to the point and perfectly dismantles dumb arguments we hear all the time. Thank you so much David!
He didnt disprove anything, I think you should spend some time reading the GSEs. on the LDS website which are the church "Official Answer" You will find that what you hear on Sunday is completely different from what they have posted on the LDS website.
The basic problem with Stuart Knechtle's presentation is his lack of good faith. He makes no attempt to present LDS views in a fair light. He presents horrible facsimiles of LDS teachings. This is worse than straw-manning. He presents as authentic LDS teachings things no member of the Church believes. Not only do Church members NOT believe the things he claims are authentic LDS teachings, they are things most Church members would find repulsive. This is intentional on his part. He is not trying to educate his audience. He's trying to fill them with revulsion toward the LDS church and its members. It may be effective, but it is dishonest.
These preachers are trying to make sure no one investigates into the LDS religion because they may be scared of losing their members who fund their pay checks. David Alexander calls it, "The Accusatory Fog!" It keeps people in ignorance instead of investigating into what we truly believe! We are not scary people, we are not the occult. Joseph Smith did not have sex with all these women that they think he had. Just look up the DNA testing results of all the children that were born to Fannie Aguilar and all the other women that were polygamist wives. Don Bradley has already done all this research. People need to investigate for themselves what the truth is instead of taking the word of preachers who don't know what they're talking about.
I have a lot of respect for Cliff and his son; I’ve learned a lot from them. However, I do find it funny that some of the criteria they apply to why they believe in Christ, particularly regarding eyewitnesses, don’t seem to apply to Joseph and the plates. Love your videos, Dave! You’re one of my favorite content creators! Hope to shake your hand one day.
Your comparing 3 to 500. You know they said Muhammed also had eye witnesses the difference is the reliability and contradictions. There's no way anyone reads the Bible and walks away thinking they can become a god nor would they find polygamy acceptable
@@hugoimartz your book of Mormon changes based on who I talk to. You preach your book the same way those who preach Islam. I literally have your book in the mail so I can properly guide your people into the light. I don't want any of you in hell and will fight for you
@@hugoimartz the book of Mormons main principle outside of following Christ is that you have the ability to be granted godhood. If you're telling me that's a lie you're just embarrassed hearing it out loud. Tell me exactly what I said was incorrect and I'll directly read from your book with context
The church of Jesus Christ is not based on the Bible. It is based on what the Bible is based on. Revelation through prophets. Which of the many versions of the Bible do these preachers think is correct? They would do well to listen to our modern day prophets. Like in Christ's original church. These preachers are just like the preachers at the time of Joseph Smith.
@@richarner3856 I believe that Jesus Christ speaks to all who will listen by the scriptures and modern day prophets just like His original church with Apostles and prophets. That's Biblical.
@@richarner3856 I'm sure I won't change your mind about scriptures. I agree with most of everything you say. I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. God is our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ is His Son and the Holy Ghost are three different entities with one purpose. There are many scriptures in the KJV of the Bible that support this.
One of the things that I think a lot of Christians don't realize is just how much they are relying on faith. And it's not a bad thing that we are relying on faith! I've talked with some of my Christian friends who are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and some of them justify their belief in Christ and disbelief in Joseph Smith by saying that there is historical evidence of Jesus Christ but none for the Book of Mormon. I often have to point out that there is no archaeological evidence that Jesus was resurrected, or that He performed many of His miracles. As people of faith, we should be looking for evidence and information on our scripture and our religion, but we have to recognize how faith and revelation are ALWAYS a vital aspect.
The Book of Abraham was completely fabricated by Joseph Smith, it is actually disprovable as a false translation of the Papyrus he purchased. The Rosetta Stone was not known in Smith’s time, and he didn’t think he would get caught, but he did. On the other hand, the Resurrection correlates with the secular accounts we have from Jesus’s time period. According to Josephus the Jewish Historian and Tacitus the Roman senator, Jesus was said to be resurrected almost immediately after his death according to his followers. Faith can sometimes be had instead of or along side historical accounts, but it can never run contrary to the factual, evidential, and provable truth. Joseph Smith’s stories do so, where the Bible does not.
However, there is evidence of the locations in the Bible (we know where Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth, etc. are). There isn't agreement among Latter Day Saints as to where the "New World" Book of Mormon events took place, and no archeological evidence at this point. We are never going to be able to prove the resurrection from archeology, but there is evidence for Biblical people that existed in history- such as Pontius Pilate, David, many of the kings. Most importantly, there is evidence that the Biblical writings are actually ancient--the Dead Sea Scrolls show us that the Old Testament writings existed *at least* 2000 years ago. The oldest New Testament fragments are 1800 years old. There is no physical evidence that the Book of Mormon existed before it was brought forward by Joseph Smith,. The plates that Joseph Smith had are not available for examination. The Bible has many writers spread out over thousands of years, while all the evidence for what the Book of Mormon says relies on one person. The situations are very different.
@@Joygk2uh Agreed. They are very different situations. My point was simply that faith is always needed. Archaeological evidence will never be able to conclusively prove every aspect of the Gospel. And the archaeological and historical evidence situation is very different with the Book of Mormon as compared to the Bible. However, an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And like David said in the video, the old world and the new world are two very different places. If Book of Mormon sites or artifacts were found, it would be almost impossible to recognize them as evidence for the Book of Mormon. Names like Inca, Aztec, and Maya are just names that we have given them. We don't know what they called themselves. We know surprisingly little about most new world civilizations. With the Book of Mormon, it is important to recognize what we have and what we don't have. The evidence for the Book of Mormon was never reliant on ONLY Joseph Smith. There were many witnesses, both official, and non-official, who saw the Golden Plates and never refuted their testimonies, even after some cut ties with Joseph and even became antagonistic towards him. The Book of Mormon itself is also an amazing piece of evidence. I've looking into many such explanations as to the origins of the Book of Mormon and I've never found a satisfactory explanation for Joseph Smith to have made it up. Additionally, when one studies the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, you recognize very quickly that finding your own evidence and your own witness is a core tenet of the faith. I don't believe in the Book of Mormon because somebody else told me that there is evidence for its existence and records of its creation. I believe in it because I have received revelation from God through His Holy Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is God's church, and that Jesus is the Christ. That is where my faith comes from.
@Joygk2uh there isn't any evidence that any of the main characters in the Bible existed. Even of Jesus. They say a king or soldier but not one of the Prophets. If not for the Book of Mormon the religious world would be a mess. Even the Jehovah Witnesses began from teachings taken from the LDS church.
You are so much more peaceful than Ward Radio when it comes to this 🤣 Great work. Hope to see more of these to come. Your responses are fantastic and well mannered
@@michaelbennett7561 WR has a more laid back approach, where there can be conversations, on what is right and what is wrong. David doesn't seem to get along with them, and that's fine. There seems to be some bad blood between SU and Kwaku, which is sad.
Why do people consider it such an apostate idea that God would visit ALL the nations of his children? Why wouldn't God consider one soul to be as precious as another? Every time I hear pastors and the like speak about our church, I rarely, if ever, see them actually quote our doctrine whether it be from the Book of Mormon, or other standard works, or from conference talks. While I appreciate people trying to bring others to the knowledge of Christ, they should do so without disparaging other religions and people who are trying to do the same.
That’s because the Book of Mormon 99% of the time agrees with the Bible as interpreted by mainstream Christian’s. And basically agreed 100% when you account for different interpretations. So you can’t really approach it any other way.
A traditional Christian reading the Book of Mormon will see it as affirming the Trinity (though seems to tend a bit towards Modalism rather than true Trinitarianism), saying that God is a Spirit (Alma 18), that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Mormon 9:9) and many other things that are direct quotes, or near quotes from the Bible. When I met with the missionaries and read the Book of Mormon I kept seeing "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which are one God" and telling them that I believed that. The missionaries would say "no, that means one in purpose, not one God." So we're using the same words, but mean different things. Traditional Christians would disagree with the idea that Adam and Eve disobeying God was ultimately for good, but see it as an absolute disaster, resulting in all the sin and suffering in the world today. Many unique Latter Day Saint beliefs are not found in reading of the Book of Mormon, like the idea that God the Father has a physical body, the idea that "As man is God once was, as God is, man may become," three levels of heaven, the pre-existence, the requirement to be married to reach the highest level, etc.
@@Joygk2uh Kheori was hoping for them to look at all of our scriptures, not just The Book of Mormon. Your post makes no sense because Kheori did not type, "They should only look at The Book of Mormon." They gave so much in accurate in formation there is no way they really tried to understand what we believe.
@@Joygk2uh an informed Christian who has read and understands John 17 will recognize that the apostles are meant to become one in just the same way the the Holy Ghost, the Father, and the Son are one. Unless you think Christ prayed for the 11 remaining apostles to merge into one being numerically, we know the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in purpose. That being said, Christ is referred to as Father for 3 reasons. 1. He created the earth. 2. When we choose Christ and covenant to follow Him, He, our Brother, adopts us as His own having paid the price for us, and 3. Father is a title our Heavenly Father has given to Christ. It is confusing, but that is the answer to the verses you pointed out according to the Church of Jesus Christ.
That’s because the Book of Mormon is a false document created by Satan to send people to hell. We do not need to quote Hersey to prove our point when we have the Bible. Jesus said beware of false prophets. Mormons don’t believe that God/jesus/holy spirit are on being and believe that they are separate entities. That is heresy and a lie created by Satan. You’re in a cult. Your leaders are lying to you to keep you in a cult. Think for yourself and find the true Jesus.
5:44 I do think the idea that Joseph just ran to his garage and grabbed an old can of rustoleum lying around just to touch up his fake plates is pretty amusing
Hey hows it going! I can't help but leave a comment to let you know what an impact you have made on my life in navigating through my own personal faith crisis which had been influenced by many videos such as the one you are analysing. I have watched some Saints Unscripted videos in the past and your deepened knowledge of the history of the Church debunking these videos is powerful. You and your colleagues are doing so much good for the church in better understanding the many doubts that arise. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you for your due diligence in carrying out the Lord's work and God bless you.
Please rewatch all those videos from the beginning and you will see many errors and issues on explanations. Like FAIR who often dont hesitate to argue against themselves. Kwaku does this all the time too.
@@jonathanettinger6970 fair point. Ward Radio made a good point when they said these people argue with faith when defending christianity l, but then argue like atheists and have a similar rhetoric when it comes to the Lds Church
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖
I love that you pointed out that we are NOT in the Church of Joseph Smith. People seem to be under the delusion that we worship him and that he was a perfect person. It’s sad to see other Christians misrepresent our faith, either intentionally or by ignorance. Either case is damnable since they have large followings and should appreciate the responsibility they bear to share good, credible information.
Thank you for putting your sources in the description! I’m a member of the church and I’ve recently started reading the BoM so I can figure out if I do actually believe in it and for me have other sources helps a ton because the answers that the gospel library gives are so polished they don’t give me a good enough answer so you are helping me on my journey, Thank you!
I am not a member of the church of later day saints. However, I deeply respect that they acknowledge that there are plenty of things that we can not prove. Christianity, in general, will call a person a heretic if they say such things. I believe that we can believe what is in the Bible without necessary proof. Yet, at the same time, I believe that we need to understand that not everything written down happened as mentioned. Sometimes, things were written in a way back then that today we would understand as something very different. The LDS church seems to understand that.
We can't "prove" God exists just as we can "prove" reality exists. What we do have evidence of is the life of Jesus Christ. The Christian religion does not fall apart through an evidence based approach as opposed to the latter-day saints' belief system.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖
What they got wrong about JS is the same as always: they swallowed up the antimormon recicled tropes that are around since the beginning, and they are regurgitating them now in a chain of fallacies
I really appreciate your comments and insight in relation to Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle. They are both rather persuasive and compelling when it comes to so many matters of faith and religion which makes it all the more important that educated, intelligent, and faithful Latter-day Saints like you are here to push back on some of their anti-Mormon rhetoric. It's imperative that we separate the wheat from the chaff instead of just getting caught up in everything they say, regardless of how much real truth they actually do communicate and defend. Thank you!
If the apostle Paul ever had a modern day twin, it was Joseph Smith. They both spent time in jail for being followers of Jesus Christ and wrote letters from prison that became scripture loved by the Saints!
@@crackshot_cashew9385Lots of people hated Joseph Smith- many still do in fact- and they made up false charges to try to ruin him. Many people also tried to kill him because of his beliefs and what he claimed to have seen.
Regarding attempting to fabricate the plates. As Martin Harris said, Joseph "had not the credit to purchase so much lead." Just the materials would have been prohibitively expensive not to mention the time.Johna Barnes made himself a replica. Using modern materials, including commercialy available sheets of brass it took eight months just to engrave the plates. And he only did one side and i think his characters were bigger.
@@Yeezus20 I am not sure I understand what you are asking in this case, but Joseph, the three, the eight and Mary Whitmer saw the plates unobstructed. Emma dealt with them regularly while wrapped up as did Martin and Oliver and other members of the Smith family.
Just because people practiced polygamy in the Bible doesn't mean it was ever okay. I'm curious where in the scriptures it talks about garments. Do you have a chapter and verse?
@@brittianyclements1821thank you. These are specifically Old Testament temple clothes. Have a tough time seeing them is exactly the same thing. I find it interesting that garments are not mentioned in the Book of Mormon or the New Testament. I have a tough time seeing the need for 24/7 garments. Temple garments worn at the temple I can wrap my head around. Anyway, thank you for sharing a source.
@freesaints: Polygamy is a temporary practice; the norm is Monogany. Without polygamy, the Saints could not have survived from an economic, social, and demographic perspective.
@@Irvingdectorsection 132 from the Doctrine & Covenants does not make it seem like a temporary practice. From that section it would appear that it is a requirement for exaltation. I appreciate your thoughts, but I just tend to disagree. I have serious doubts that polygamy was ever necessary. I used to believe it was necessary and warranted, but as I have read historical records and documents from the time I've been persuaded to believe otherwise.
@@freesaints I believe D&C 132 is partly true. Were you aware that it was published decades after JS died? It wouldn't be the first thing that the leaders in Utah did that was contrary to what JS did/thought.
Love these videos and content. I was investigating the church for eight years and channels like this really helped me understand tackling the difficult topics.
…yet none of the Apostles practiced polygamy, why is that? Read 1st Timothy in the Bible. It’s clear that all the deacons, elders and bishops are to have no more than one wife. Isn’t your church supposed to be the original church restored? That church never practiced polygamy. Doesn’t the Book of Mormon condemn polygamy as an abomination? If Joseph Smith was an eye witness of Jesus, just like Paul, then why are they so vastly different in their practice of marriage and polygamy?
It was not condoned in the Bible. Done, is not the same as okay. Even Jesus says one man and one woman in a marriage and that Jesus is to love and serve her as he loves the church. She obviously is also to love and serve him with all her heart as her own flesh. I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖
@@BGCflyer We believe single marriage is the normal standard. The people in the bible would have had only one wife if God didn't tell them to have multiple. same goes for the latter-day saints. We believe God told us to have multiple wives for a time. Why? no one knows but God. We don't know why God commanded us to do these things. But He did. None of the apostles practiced polygamy because God didn't tell them to. Yes. we we believe we are the original church restored. "That church never practiced polygamy" -- because God never told them to. He did in the Bible though. It doesn't matter what God commanded people to do in the past, it matters what He commands us to do today. Don't take that the wrong way -- i mean at different time periods, God will command us to do different things. For example, He instituted the Law of Moses. We don't practice the Law of Moses anymore. But God commanded the Israelites to practice it, so they did. If I was an Israelite at that time period I would have practiced the Law of Moses too. Because it was what God commanded them to do. He doesn't command us to do it anymore though, so we don't. The book of mormon condemns having multiple wives and concubines as an abomination, yes. It is a sexual sin. The early church members didn't practice polygamy out of lust like the Nephites did, though. Theres a difference between doing it out of lust and doing it for the reason that God commanded you to. God didn't command the Nephites to have multiple wives, so if they did, it would be contrary to His commandments. It all depends on what God is commanding you to do, and as I said earlier, we may not always know WHY He commands us to do certain things. All we can do is trust in Him.
Who could've guessed that two evangelical pastors would grossly misrepresent church history and theology and use stupid historicity arguments. If anyone wants to know how to rebuttal this kind of argument watch the Bart Ehrman vs Justin Bass debate, really educatuonal, these guys would benefit from it a lot.
what do you mean by coming down??? and no we trust christ obviously more than paul. But you missed the point.... Paul is a historical figure who wrote historical written documents about Jesus Christ and through the eye witnesses who knew Christ accepted his writtings as true and reliable.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖
Except that God NEVER commanded polygamy and David isn’t even historically a man.. they haven’t proven his existence. You need to read Biblical history
@@justjamie6458 A big part of the issue around Smith's polygamy is how vehemently he denied it, to his wife, his associates, but especially to the public. Then when proof inevitably was made public of his marriages to 14 year old teenagers (no, this was not "normal" at the time), or mother-daughter pairs, people understandably got ticked about it, and didn't want the church in their town.
Here is the problem I have with other Christian faiths...Can a man bring others closer to Christ, if they really don't know him? Christ makes it pretty clear what he thinks of such...Any man who seeks to do good is far closer to Christ, than a Christian who would murder a man for a preceived evil...I would bet that if one could go back in time and poll the men who killed Joseph Smith, one would be shocked at the number who claimed to be Christian. A clear indication would be "contention". Exactly what these two men are doing.
@@BGCflyer Obviously, some elements are more durable than others. Cementuous materials tend to be very durable in a variety of climate conditions, whereas other materials may not be so durable. For example, steel will rust away with moisture, whereas other metals are less susceptible to that. Deterioration rates of bio-degradable materials vary a lot based on the environment in which they exist.
Can someone address this? The major issues Christians or outsiders have with the LDS Church-eternal marriage, temple ordinances, the Word of Wisdom, the plan of salvation, and Heavenly Father having a body-aren't found in the Book of Mormon. These key doctrines rely on Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price, not the Book of Mormon, which raises the question: If the Book of Mormon is the 'most correct book,' why aren't these core teachings in it? If Joseph Smith was a prophet, do we have to accept all his revelations without question? How does it make sense to pick and choose?
I dont think you know what the church actually believes because nothing they said was wrong or incorrect. Is was regularly taught that god was once a man who had millions of gods before him and he lived a good life and got his own planet Kolab. All the men of the LDS church were eligible to ascend to Godhood get their own planet and multitudes of wives. You may want to research the news to see the lawsuits brought against the church by church members for the ever changing doctrine. Essentially you have members that are in their 60 and 70s suing the church they were brought up in because of the doctruine changes and then the open denial it was changed. The one LDS member was such a faithful member of the church that he kept all the literature he was given while attending through his life and demonstrated to the News Caster contradictions and changes in the church writings.
I am surprised that a Christian would mock and ridicule a symbol of the suffering, crucifixion, atonement, shedding of blood, and death of Jesus Christ. In Genesis we read the Lord made garments out of coats of skins and covered their nakedness, implying the death and shedding of blood of animals, perhaps lambs. Abel's offering of an animal was accepted, but Cain's offering of fruits and vegetables was not. The garments covered their nakedness, but also was symbolic of the covering of our sins by His atonement. We know that it is faith in Christ that healings and miracles are wrought, and not by crosses, holy water from the River Jordan, golden Chablis cups, candles, or garments. And crosses of themselves or rosarys do not ward off vampires or evil spirits; but are symbols a nd reminders of our faith. Still we do not mock the symbols, nor caps of Jews and Catholics, or robes, candles, frocks and staffs of pastors. Symbols teach us and remind us of Christ and His crucifixion and atonement; but they aren't Christ, nor do we worship them.
You should do a series of videos addressing claims in the CES letter. Love the video, I feel like you articulated your opinion very well, and I think it would be useful to have someone in the faith address the letter because I haven't seen many effectively do so yet. Subscribed. Thank you for focusing on faith building amidst criticisms.
I find the LDS church to be false just as they find my beliefs to be false. But love them and who they are. They are some of the Greatest people Ive ever got the chance to meet. I hope they have great lives and The Lord Blesses them.
They don’t call them “magic underwear” because they think you teach they’re gonna make you invisible or something like that, They call them because we know that members have been taught that they supposedly protect people from literal physical harm.
Yeah... What did Silvia Sessions tell Josephine? Who wrote the happiness letter? Who shifted something of a foster parent relationship into a marriage relationship and repeated his sealing to those young women "for Emma's sake? Who locked up Martha Brotherton? Who already had plural wives and told a married woman an Angel with a flaming sword would kill him? That's especially ironic in the context of Joseph saying he would "go to hell for such a woman..." as quoted in Joseph Smith the Prophet by Truman Madsen. A reluctant man would have lived according to the law of Sarah as written in D&C 132 if he were living Prophetically consistent and sent such an Angel off to convince Emma. Polygamy in Ancient Israel was cultural, not doctrinal. Maybe the "Angel" with a flaming sword was the same that visited Korihor (Alma 30:18) to lead men & women to commit whoredoms. I can't undo my ancestors experiences with polygamy. I do have a renewed compassion for evils Brigham Young escalated with the debauchery. Requiring polygamy of men, or excommunicating them for Apostasy if the refused and rescinding any call to leadership was one way Brigham Young was every bit as evil as Warren Jeffs and reallocated women & children like a prize to be won for showing Brigham fealty. When it comes to Brigham Young, Zina & Henry... though Henry wasn't killed the story is similar to David, Bathsheba, & Uriah. Brian Hales fallacious Apologetic - argument from silence on the CES Letters Podcast recently is quite contrary to his own statements made on Mormon Stories Podcast years ago discussing his book where he did say that there was too much evidence to not say Josephine Lyon was biologically Joseph Smith Jr's child. Yes I know he reversed that stance after the DNA studies were completed and pointed to Windsor. He, Brian Hales,appears to be going the same route as Kerry Muhlstein when he admitted his confirmation bias approach to the Abraham revelation. The most important data is what allows us to paint Joseph Smith Jr in the most positive and faith promoting way- we must therefore reject anything, even if from credible sources, that may tell a different story. There isn't a good faith defense of Joseph Smith Jr & polygamy/ polyandry. If he was a Prophet he would know in someway the damage it would lead to, and what FLDS Warren Jeffs would do with it. It's a weasels "tails you lose, heads I win" game the Apologetics play defending Joseph Smith Jr & his polygamy. The numbers & practice are obvious to a philandering enjoyment- not a reluctant pious Prophet who would go to hell for such a woman. How many of our leaders served mission's in Europe, telling people that the Church didn't practice polygamy, only to find out after emigrating to Utah that it was being practiced? The mountain of lies told in defense of this debaucheryeclipse the mound of lies told about Mountain Meadows Massacre. The polygamy apologetics are laughable, fallacious Apologetics- the end.
Thank you! There were many who didn’t believe Jesus Christ was the son of God in his day either. We shouldn’t be surprised that his chosen latter-day prophet would be recognised in our day either. God tells us in our hearts and our minds (that’s the process of revelation) when we are willing to put forth the effort to know whether Jesus Christ is the son of God and whether he did choose Joseph Smith to be a prophet. But you need to ‘want’ to know! Some seem to have already made up their minds what they want to believe.
Thanks for reacting to the video. Those 2 preachers stepped over the line. Though, like many people, many trust the scriptures and people's testimonies, but the only true way to be sure is a spiritual experience yourself. That's how I've come to know the truth. (I don't know everything, but the things God shared with me, I can't deny).
and the reality is this ... very few "witnesses" wrote about jesus. for example paul was not a witness of jesus. paul claims to have met the resurrected jesus, on the road to damascus ... but not a single witness corroborated it. and several of the books credited to paul, were written by someone else. not paul. luke was not an eye witness. mark was not an eye witness.
Paul was…. The road of Damascus he came in contact with the living Christ. These eyewitnesses were willing to die for what they saw. Rather with the three witnesses, they left with only two of them returning.
@@JonathanRodriguez-dw1fg nope. sorry, you are wrong. not a single person that was with paul on the road to damascus confirmed that paul saw jesus. all we have is the word of paul. and not even written by paul. but by luke. so the reality is we do not even have the written word of paul claiming he saw jesus on the road to damascus. just a second hand source. luke.
David, thanks for this video. Love the concise answers while maintaining charity for these folks. It’s sad how blatantly some misconstrue what we believe without taking the time to appreciate the truth which is oftentimes more nuanced, and consistently more beautiful. Thanks again.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖
As a believing member, most of these types of comments in the video sound so obviously ridiculous. But it makes me wonder… what beliefs do I have about other groups that sounds as far off base to members of those groups?
@keystonelds I was curious about something you said around 13:30 in your video. You said that LDS believe that we are of the same "kind" of "eternal stuff" as God. Can you clarify what you mean by this? I grew up in a non-LDS church and for as long as I remember we have always emphasized the creator/creature distinction as a key part of our understanding of God in relation to creation. God is uncreated (according to biblical teaching) and we are creatures. How is it, then, that we could ever say that we are made up of the same "eternal stuff" as God? It seems that to affirm that is to blur the creator/creature distinction in a way that contradicts what the Bible teaches. Yes, humans are made in God's images and therefore share some qualities God has that we also have (which we call "communicable attributes"), but there are also many attributes that God has that we never will (which we call "non-communicable attributes"). Of these non-communicable attributes one of the key ones is God's eternal self-existence (or "aseity"). Humans are contingent beings whose existence is dependent on something outside their selves, but God is a necessary being whose existence is not dependent on something outside himself. Given all this, I would like to know what you mean by the idea that we are made of the same "eternal stuff" as God. If I understand what you mean by that statement then it really seems like you are trying to say that the difference between us and God is not one of kind but one of degree. If that is what you are saying then that contradicts what Christians have been saying about the difference between God and humans for 2,000 years and what Jews have been saying about the difference between God and humans for 4,000+ years. It is hard to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet sent by God to "restore" the church if he taught things about God and humans that contradict what the Bible says and what the church for the past 2,000 years has taught. So, when I am asked to trust that what Joseph Smith is saying is true based on his testimony that also means that I have to distrust what the church has taught about God for 2,000 years. That is too heavy a price to pay for me to trust in Joseph. I think the church is right about the creator/creature distinction and I think the LDS teaching on the ontological relationship between humans is incorrect. I hope I am understanding you correctly and I hope that you understand why I am asking about this. I spoke with LDS elders about these sorts of questions and over time it became clear to me that elders aren't trained to handle these kinds of intellectual questions but rather to help people cultivate their faith which is why I stopped meeting with the elders. You seem to me to be a reasonable person who has thought through their faith which is why I think I will make much more headway asking you this question rather than an elder.
@jacobjensen1730 Jacob Hansen of the "Thoughtful Faith" youtube channel has also addressed ideas similar to this topic in his various videos, so you might check those out also, along with messaging/chatting with David Snell. Those kinds of questions are pretty deep, and so folks can speculate to a large degree when discussing them. My own personal opinion is that in our current mortal, temporary, physically-based state, things of a spiritual and eternal nature, into the far distant past and future, are very difficult for us to comprehend. It also seems to me that the idea that God has been God, exactly as He is today, throughout the past eternities is a difficult concept to grasp on its own, and I suspect may be a cultural assumption rather than a 'revealed truth'. For example, the 'beginning' mentioned in John 1 seems to imply that there was a beginning point to our current creation event, rather than a static eternity into the far distant past. There is also some pretty strong evidence that the Nicene Creed, which was the source of the current prevailing Christian ideas of the trinity, was influenced by the prevailing Greek philosophy and religious teachings of that time, opening up the possibility that it is not quite in sync with what the earlier Christians taught and believed. I'm also happy to discuss these ideas more with you if you like :)
I cannot wait until the sealed portion of the Brass Plates is opened and read upon the housetops. Not going to happen until we have faith like the Brother of Jared did. But, until then, we are to exercise our faith. If it was all given to us, where would our progression come from? ❤
Yes, but I think you mean the Gold Plates. The Brass Plates were what Nephi Brough from Jerusalem. The Gold Plates have the prophecies of the Brother of Jared sealed, and I am also excited to learn what they contain, someday.
"Blessed art thou...for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee" Christ taught that the basis of our faith should be faith and revelation from God, not historical (flesh) sources
Pastors can only ever be useful middling preachers. They have more light than the pagan and the hedonist, but lack the higher-level living spirit of God found only in the Church
What is interesting to me is that we can defend J.S and say "he didn't have sexual relations with all those women!" Then awkwardly ignore Brigham Young and his 57 children... and 56 wives...
"magic underwear?" You mean sacred symbol of my commitment to Jesus Christand His covering Atonement of my sins? Its like a musical masterpiece being classified as noise.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖
Joseph Smith was and is a True Prophet of God The Book of Mormon is True The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's church and Kingdom. No man can come to God except thru Jesus Christ.
Joseph Smith repeatedly, and very clearly, stated where the Book of Mormon lands were and are: in the lower Great Lakes region, U.S.A. He was asked, pointedly, where the Book of Mormon took place and he said where the western tribes of Indians (Native Americans) live. In the 1830's, that was: Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and Missouri, exactly where he sent missionaries to THE Lamanites, as read in D&C 28, 30 and 32. Joseph taught the Sac and Fox Native Americans, that the Book of Mormon is a record of THEIR ancestors. Joseph clearly stated that he and others walked over the mounds of the Nephites, picking up their skulls and bones as evidence of them, while walking through: Ohio, IN, IL, MO. Joseph testified of Lamanite's bones, found in Illinois, and identified the city Manti, in N.E. Missouri, and Zarahemla, in eastern IA, where thousands of mounds and artifacts have been found, in the exact location Joseph Smith said the Nephites and Lamanites lived. Nephite cities and villages were made of wood, which burnt down, which we have ample evidence of. PLEASE stop the false Mesoamerica theory, the Mayans sailed from Thailand in: ~2000 B.C.E., to Guatemala and have NOTHING to do with the Lehites and Mulekites, or Jaredites. Maya is an Asian-Indian word and the Maya brought their stepped pyramids, deity, language and culture from Thailand-Cambodia, to Central America. The Native Americans of the Great Lakes, Mississippi and Ohio Rivers, have virtually nothing in common with others living in the Americas. Over 90% of Bible towns and villages have never been located. The towns they think they have located, are best guesses, with no verifiable proof. Jericho, Nazareth, and many other Bible towns have never been located. The Exodus has never been proven, nor any of the cities and villages of the ancient patriarchs, pre-Noah. Accept it on faith, or don't, no proof will be given.
There are many sources from the latter part of Joseph’s life where he referred to ancient ruins in central/meso America as the ruins of a great Nephite civilization. Joseph also talked about the events of the Book of Mormon taking place all the way down in South America at times. So if we’re going to take quotes from the Prophet, we should look at all of them. What we know is that Mormon hid up a large collection of records in a hill named Cumorah and then his son, Moroni, buried the part of those records that Mormon gave him in another hill in upstate New York several years later which was never given a name in the text. This hill would be called Cumorah by the early members of the restored church. To cap it all off, the Book of Mormon tells us that the people spread to cover the whole face of the land, and the scriptures never tell us that the mulekites, lehites, and jaredites are the only people living in the Americas, so it’s not impossible to imagine that Nephi and his people were interacting with other peoples and converting them to Christ and making new Nephites. I’m not saying you’re wrong about North America and Book of Mormon geography, but I am saying that you shouldn’t call other models flatly false, especially when that model resonates substantially with what the record says.
@MrArtist7777: A 'Heartland as Hinterland, Mesoamerican Core' model, which Mark Alan Wright wrote a book about, can reasonably explain all of Joseph Smith's statements about various Nephite and Lamanite tribes' presence in lands north of Mexico, along with their descendants. I subscribe to that model currently, as it is, in my opinion, the best fit so far between the actual Book of Mormon text and the physical evidence at the locations described in that model. The correspondences, using sound mainstream scientific and archaeological research, are numerous and quite compelling. I have studied the various Book of Mormon geographical models extensively. As for the actual Zarahemla and Manti city locations, it is a huge stretch and an unwarranted misconnection to say that the texts you referred to are saying that those 2 places named as such in the 19th century historical records were the actual locations of the Book of Mormon cities with the same names. The official church doctrine certainly has never made such a claim, nor will it ever make such a claim. Our official doctrine is that there is no such claim. As for Mayan civilization sailing from Thailand in ~2000 B.C. and that their language and culture came from that part of SE Asia at that time: well, it appears that we are using completely different sources for our ancient world history and archaeological information. I use reputable mainstream scientific sources which say that the Mayan civilization and languages and genetics, along with the other ancient peoples of the Americas, were indigenous and ultimately descended from their very distant ancestors, who came through the Bering Strait over 10,000 years ago. Also the native Americans of the Great Lakes, Mississippi, and Ohio Rivers (Hopewell and Adena) were descended from earlier native American tribes who were in North America. There is no evidence that they were of more recent Middle Eastern origin. The 'X' mtdna 'evidence' that the Heartland folks like to make use of, is totally incorrect and is a complete misinterpretation of mainstream genetic science. Additionally, I would not expect to find any surviving old world dna, related to the Book of Mormon text, in modern native American peoples given both the very small number of immigrants in each party compared to the much larger native population, along with the fact that about 90% of the native American gene pool was lost during the Columbian exchange. That doesn't mean necessarily that most or all native Americans don't have Lehi and/or his party of immigrants among their many ancestors, but it simply means that Lehi's party's dna contribution as a percentage of their total dna makeup is very likely too small to detect, so cannot be proven. I agree with the other commenter who implied that many of the native peoples in the areas where the Nephites lived (and migrated to) were converted to their religious faith and thus became "Nephites". Eventually I believe that the native gene pool dominated over time, to the point where the old world dna was no longer detectable, using current dna analytical methods.
Jericho was located. There’s very clear evidence of it in Palestine, with a double layer wall that collapsed and burning immediately after, which is fully consistent with the accounts of the Bible. The burned pottery remains also match timewise with the arrival of the Israelites from Egypt around 1400 BC. No such evidence exists for the Lamanites, or any other of Joseph Smith’s named tribes.
@whitebeans7292: Regarding 'Lamanites', their definition in the Book of Mormon is quite broad: basically meaning every group of people that was opposed to the Nephites. The 'Nephites' were pretty much defined as those who were part of a particular group whom the Lamanites were opposing, among whom were those who believed in God and were trying to follow the teachings of the Judeo-Christian-like religion brought over and practiced by those who followed Nephi after he parted ways with his brothers Laman and Lemuel. Like the ancient Israelites, they were a mixture of those who believed in God and tried to follow their religious teachings and those who had fallen away from their religious faith and became wicked, following the beliefs of surrounding 'worldly' cultures and groups, as well as those who no longer believed in their religion, but who nevertheless weren't necessarily 'wicked'. The similarities of the Nephites and Lamanites with the Israelites and their surrounding Canaanite cultures ends pretty much there. There are major differences, such as: 1) Like David Snell alluded to in the video: we don't know exactly where the Nephites lived. However, in the Mesoamerican model, which I subscribe to, certain areas within the Chiapas and Tabasco regions of southern Mexico are plausible Nephite locations. They all have hot moist climates which are not conducive to perishable records' preservation, unlike the fairly arid climates of the Levant in the Middle East. Also, the prime candidate for Zarahemla is currently under a reservoir, Lake Angostura, created by the creation of the Angostura dam in the 1970's. Some excavations were done prior to the dam's creation, which showed some interesting correspondences with the Zarahemla of the Book of Mormon (Santa Rosa Mesoamerican site). 2) The Nephites are thought to have been part of a larger culture, and as such, it would likely prove difficult to find artifacts that might distinguish them from the native American culture that they were immersed in. In the Mesoamerican model, they are thought to have been part of the Zoquean culture of southern Mexico, which is believed to have descended from the more ancient Olmec culture. 3) Since the Lamanites were defined as 'those who opposed the Nephites', it would be even harder to find any artifacts among the Mayans or other cultures in that part of southern Mexico or Guatemala which could betray an Old World influence. There have been some interesting artifacts that could show an old world influence, but nothing that is completely conclusively definitive. This is reasonable to expect, so I'm not surprised by that. 4) The immigrant parties described in the Book of Mormon were very small compared to the pre-existing much larger native population. As such, artifacts that would survive in that climate would be very hard to come by, especially when you add the fact that the climate is not conducive to preservation, the fact that we often don't know exactly where to look, etc. 5) Unlike in Israel and Judah, since the immigrant groups were very small in number, I believe that the Old World writing system and spoken language of the immigrants was confined only to the ruling/priestly class lineage who kept the records on the gold/brass plates, with their families and descendants likely being bi-lingual, and the main body of the culture being more native-American in both spoken language and writing. I believe they had many converts amongst the native peoples, and as the centuries went by, the percentage of native culture and language increased amongst the Nephites and/or the followers of their original religion. This would make the likelihood of finding evidence of Old World culture even less likely.
Thanks for sharing this. I really appreciate the kind and understanding approach to those who find fault with our faith and beliefs. That is one of the things I really appreciate about our faith is that we don't make a habit of finding fault with other religions, but actually try to look for the good in them. Even though the Cliffe and Stuart likely mean well, and are doing what they think is right, I am not all all impressed with their approach. They would do better to follow Jeff McCullough's example. From my overall impressions, Jeff has a really good spirit about him and is very non-contentious, while Cliffe and Stuart exude the spirit of contention in many of their interviews and discussions, and I have watched a few of them. It is one thing to stand firm in your beliefs, but it is another thing to go too far with that firmness by being overbearing and contentious. I think that contentiousness comes out in the open when they misrepresent and find fault with other religions, such as ours. I just watched an interview between Cliffe Knectle and Matt Dillahunty, and I wasn't at all impressed with the way Cliffe handled that. I think you achieve a good balance here by defending our beliefs from misrepresentation and falsehoods, while not personally attacking those sharing those bad ideas, but by being understanding and thoughtful towards them, gently inviting them to have a more informed and accurate approach to our faith.
Little footage used of Pastor 1, but Pastor 2... You're far more congenial than he deserves. I can start to count both the fallacies and false information he gives. He makes prosperity gospel preachers seem benevolent by comparison. And I am SO holding back on the words I COULD use for him.
Speaking of archeology, the statement that there is no archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon in the new world is premature at best. There’s only been what 2% of the land has been excavated? (Don’t know the real number but it’s extremely small). That’s like saying you have only looked Arkansas and discovered that there are no large bodies of water, thus there are no large bodies of water in the entire American continents.
Plus, you need to take into account the events of 3 Nephi 8&9. At Jesus's crucifixion, it says that mountains went in the sea, and the sea was raised up, etc. I'm sure that the topography of the area looked very different from before. 3 Nephi 8:12 says that the entire face of the earth was changed! Cities were burned to the ground. Cities were sunk. Cities were carried off in whirlwind. People might consider that this all could affect archeology and perhaps even which area that Lehi and Nephi first settled.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖
I do like their campus ministry. However evangelical Christians often get it wrong on Mormons. They also think there is a Trinity which is incorrect. Cliffe has said Jesus was God. That's not what Christ said while alive on earth. And it is not based on scripture.
When Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I AM,” that is the clearest possible statement of Divinity one could make to a 1st century Jewish audience. Is He older than Abraham? ✅ Is He an eternal being? ✅ Is He using God’s name as revealed to Moses? ✅ Did people try to stone Him for blasphemy immediately after? ✅
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
The Book of Mormon itself attests that Jesus is Divine. The title page of the Book of Mormon states that part of the purpose of the book is to persuade all people that: “Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.”. Mosiah 3:5 states the following: For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. One of the key themes of the Book of Mormon is that Jesus Christ is the God of Israel, under the direction of His Father, and that He came down and became mortal like us to suffer for our pains, redeem all from death and those who believe in His name from sin, and to bring us back to Him and His Father. That is the good news. That is the gospel of Jesus Christ that the prophets and apostles have declared.
John 1:1:5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Revelation 22:12-22:13 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according to his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
As someone who converted from mormonism to Christianity, I found this video to be very respectful and well spoken. I may not agree with mormonism, but that doesn't mean we're not all worshipping the same Savior. God bless, my friend. 🙏
(John 6:37-40) ALL Those The FATHER GIVES ME Will Come to ME, and Whoever Comes to ME I Will NEVER Drive Away....!! For I have Come Down From HEAVEN NOT to do 'MY WILL' But to do "The WILL Of HIM WHO Sent ME...!!" And THIS is the WILL Of HIM WHO Sent ME, that I Shall Lose NONE Of ALL THOSE HE has GIVEN ME, But Raise Them Up at the LAST DAY...!! For MY FATHER’s WILL is that "EVERYONE Who Looks to the SON and BELIEVES in HIM Shall have ETERNAL LIFE, (John 14:6, and I WILL Raise Them Up at the LAST DAY....!!” (John 10:14-15) ✝️ “I AM the GOOD SHEPHERD; 'I KNOW MY SHEEP (Ephesians 1:4-6, 2:10, 2 Timothy 1:9) and MY SHEEP KNOW ME- (John 14:26-27) JUST as The FATHER KNOWS ME and I KNOW The FATHER- and ✝️ "I Lay Down MY LIFE For the SHEEP...!!"🐑
Fantastic responses! Thank you for defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and being a great apologist. May your videos spread far and wide.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line. There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense. Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days. If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism. Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25. Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this. Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless. 💖
No. Nobody wears magical underwear. The levite priests wore temple garments/robes. They also wore tzitzits daily that reminded them of their covenants. Latter day saints wear temple garments and robes They also wear clothing daily that remind them of their covenants.
I used to watch and enjoy cliff. But when I saw how uneducated he was about the LDS faith, I unsubbed and clicked "don't recommend this channel". He if is this extremely wrong about the simplist of things, I cannot trust him with greater things.
Mormonism fails the test of science and the test of scripture, y’all can’t see it cause you were born into it so you’re defending Joseph smith….. Matthew 24:24 the Bible tells us For there shall arise (false Christs,) and (false prophets,) This is important because the Mormon church teaches a message that sounds so similar to Christianity, but is fundamentally a different gospel. It teaches another Christ, and that is a Christ that cannot save you. It’s a Christ that is not found in Scripture, Jesus can’t be the creator of Lucifer and be his brother at the same time, the Jesus Christ of the Word of the living God is the creator of Lucifer (not) his brother, and Jesus says in John 14:6 that He is the way, the truth, the life, and no man comes to the father except through Him. Jesus also said in John 8:25 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
I invite you to talk to more of LDS people. We aren’t all born into it, that’s a false rumor Christians spread around. We don’t believe Christ created Lucifer, you do. We believe and are familiar with all the verses you have and will hereafter cite as the word of God. We don’t believe that the Bible holds an exhaustive description of God or truth. we believe in a God that still reveals truth, about himself and his Gospel. We believe the main points of His gospel that are of salvific importance are found in the Bible Namely faith, repentance, baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end.
I'm not Christian so passing the test of scriptures doesn't matter to me. But the test of science it fails completely. But going back to scriptures there are seemingly hundreds of contradictions between the Bible and Mormon beliefs and teachings. The fact that the Bible says God doesn't change his mind and in the Mormon religion God changes his mind every time the times change or if it's needed to grow the church is very interesting.
Not everyone was born into the church, there are many members who joined later in life. I’ve always struggled extensively with the mass amount of denominations and which to choose. How do you actually know you’re in the correct denomination? Many are born into one and stay with it for life. (Like you’re saying happens with the LDS church) not to mention many denominations conflict very heavily with each other and even more change depending on what church you go to. I can go to a baptist church in Washington and travel to Tennessee and be taught very differently. This isn’t true for the LDS church however. I could move to a completely different country and be taught essentially the same way but I’m absolutely being taught the same ideas. There are many verses that talk in the exact opposite way you are describing the trinity. Why would Heavenly Father be confusing and difficult to understand. Especially about something as crucial at the trinity. Why would the Bible repeatedly say that Jesus is the son of God when they are actually the same being. I don’t believe he would be that confusing and hard to understand when he represents truth and clarity. You are welcome to your own beliefs and your own perspectives but I do as well. You may not agree with me and that’s fine but for many of us members this is the church that makes sense and it’s the church that I was told by my Heavenly Father was the right church for me. I’m sure you don’t have an interest in my testimony and I’m not going to force it onto you, but it is one thing I cannot say didn’t happen nor one that didn’t come from God. I’m just trying to bring a new perspective to the conversation and hopefully we can agree to disagree. Have a wonderful day.
First girl is right, we shouldn’t “trust” Paul either. The Old Testament was not about Jesus. The messiah was not supposed to die without fulfilling. The followers of Jesus appropriated the scriptures as and created a second coming as a way to make sense of their charismatic leaders death.
So the pastor recently saw the broadway “Book of Mormon” play it seems….🤣 Someone who throws out such crass and casual terms are immediately telling me they are not ready to have a real discussion about Christianity.
Excellent channel! Some interesting parallels, very similar Devine experiences between Joseph and Joan of Arc. Joan was around 13 or so in 1425 when she received her first visions and visits from Devine personages. Joseph was 14. Both were born of humble origins and accomplished things that no person without Devine help could accomplish. Also, both eventually were martyred for their beliefs and experiences.
When they blatantly say what they know to be wrong and use it as a selling point to harass the church. Its not getting it wrong, its out and out lying! I have zero respect for liars ! I do because I'm a liar! I lie to beautiful women all the time! Difference being, i dont lie to make people hate. I also hope the liars get exactly the same results i do! (Which is nowhere)😢
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you for being intellectually honest and reasonable... and respectful... unlike what my pastor colleagues are doing with their street thing. sigh... You're the man, David Snell.
Thanks for setting a better example my friend!
I feel like they need to talk to you before talking about our Church. You actually have a good understanding of what we believe while still not of our faith.
@@spideyN8R I think they should read the Book of Mormon, sincerely pray to the God of their Bible to know whether it's true before they can talk about our Church. It is the keystone to our religion and most if not all don't even afford it that much.
I think you need to remind your friends about that little thing called bearing false witness, or is that ok in the modern Christian world?
Matthew 7 :1-5 " Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
This is the reason why non latter day saints who called themselves Christian, are also known as modern day hypocrites. Jesus warn us not to judge unjustly. Yet, this Evangelicals who profess to know Christ, never knew Christ by way they act.
It feels like he watched South Park and Godmakers then stood in a public space rambling.
@billthecat22 hey haven't you figured out how to use toilet paper properly yet, little girl?
@@WatchingwaitingG2Dnaaa😂
@@HankHartley-j8q move along pretender.
@@WatchingwaitingG2D pretend what
@@HankHartley-j8q Quit pretending you're a woman.
When I hear phrases like "magic underwear" and "getting your own planet," it's hard for me to believe these people are acting in good faith.
Realize, that one of the major teachings of the church was that we would become Gods and receive our own planet(s). This seems to not be taught these days in the church, but was a major selling point in the church just 20 years ago. I think talk of this was pulled when it became apparent that it seemed “weird” among mainstream christianity
@@mikehemmelgarn9230 So you just remove things because it's not reaching your audience the way you want it to?
@@4verage417yes! Just like changes in the temple ceremony when they become socially inappropriate, allow blacks in the priesthood when the pressure is on, and on and on and on. You also don’t hear much about the importance of food storage any more. It used to be hugeeee!
what happened to "god was just like us" and we can become like him one day??
@@roublerattv3793exactly!!! That used to be a huge selling proposition of the church. “As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become”. This was taught from the pulpit, now it’s been all but discarded!!!
With regard to the 'magical underwear' insult (it is an insult, let's not dress it up in nicer clothes), I wonder how these good people would feel if a Buddhist or an atheist were make fun of the crosses so many of them wear. I'm sure they would consider such remarks to be totally out of bounds.
Similarly, I doubt any of them would openly make fun of a man wearing a Jewish Kippah (yarmlke). Nor would they make fun of a Hassidic Jew's traditional religious clothing. They wouldn't make fun of Jewish clothing because they know it would make them seem bigoted. Making fun of our temple garments just puts their bigotry on display.
Amen! It's bigotry, plain and simple.
facts!!!
Nobody insults the special jews, bankers, financiers and powerful ones, so loved by all the world. But all the atheists and apostates target saints, proof that we have the true gospel.
@@DKWalser absolutely!
So…The Levite Priests wore “magical underwear?” These terms for temple garments are not only insulting, but very childish.
This is truly the best response I’ve ever seen to anti. It’s so calm cool and collected. Right to the point and perfectly dismantles dumb arguments we hear all the time. Thank you so much David!
He didnt disprove anything, I think you should spend some time reading the GSEs. on the LDS website which are the church "Official Answer" You will find that what you hear on Sunday is completely different from what they have posted on the LDS website.
The basic problem with Stuart Knechtle's presentation is his lack of good faith. He makes no attempt to present LDS views in a fair light. He presents horrible facsimiles of LDS teachings. This is worse than straw-manning. He presents as authentic LDS teachings things no member of the Church believes. Not only do Church members NOT believe the things he claims are authentic LDS teachings, they are things most Church members would find repulsive. This is intentional on his part. He is not trying to educate his audience. He's trying to fill them with revulsion toward the LDS church and its members. It may be effective, but it is dishonest.
These preachers are trying to make sure no one investigates into the LDS religion because they may be scared of losing their members who fund their pay checks. David Alexander calls it, "The Accusatory Fog!" It keeps people in ignorance instead of investigating into what we truly believe! We are not scary people, we are not the occult. Joseph Smith did not have sex with all these women that they think he had. Just look up the DNA testing results of all the children that were born to Fannie Aguilar and all the other women that were polygamist wives. Don Bradley has already done all this research. People need to investigate for themselves what the truth is instead of taking the word of preachers who don't know what they're talking about.
Because Knechtle is a false prophet.
@@billthecat22 quiet clueless.
I have a lot of respect for Cliff and his son; I’ve learned a lot from them. However, I do find it funny that some of the criteria they apply to why they believe in Christ, particularly regarding eyewitnesses, don’t seem to apply to Joseph and the plates. Love your videos, Dave! You’re one of my favorite content creators! Hope to shake your hand one day.
Your comparing 3 to 500. You know they said Muhammed also had eye witnesses the difference is the reliability and contradictions. There's no way anyone reads the Bible and walks away thinking they can become a god nor would they find polygamy acceptable
@@Christós_eínai_Kýrios-Neither does the Book of Mormon say that. Stop regurgitating the same old arguments
@@hugoimartz your book of Mormon changes based on who I talk to. You preach your book the same way those who preach Islam. I literally have your book in the mail so I can properly guide your people into the light. I don't want any of you in hell and will fight for you
@@hugoimartz the book of Mormons main principle outside of following Christ is that you have the ability to be granted godhood. If you're telling me that's a lie you're just embarrassed hearing it out loud. Tell me exactly what I said was incorrect and I'll directly read from your book with context
@@hugoimartz also are you gonna act like Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist? Then who are fanny alger and louisa beaman.
Fair, respectful, intelligently reasoned, interlaced with faith, and persuasive. Great combo!
The church of Jesus Christ is not based on the Bible. It is based on what the Bible is based on. Revelation through prophets. Which of the many versions of the Bible do these preachers think is correct? They would do well to listen to our modern day prophets. Like in Christ's original church. These preachers are just like the preachers at the time of Joseph Smith.
@@richarner3856 I agree with that scripture. What is your interpretation of Hebrews 1:1?
@@richarner3856 I believe that Jesus Christ speaks to all who will listen by the scriptures and modern day prophets just like His original church with Apostles and prophets. That's Biblical.
@@richarner3856 Yes
@@richarner3856 Yes, why do you ask?
@@richarner3856 I'm sure I won't change your mind about scriptures. I agree with most of everything you say. I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. God is our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ is His Son and the Holy Ghost are three different entities with one purpose. There are many scriptures in the KJV of the Bible that support this.
One of the things that I think a lot of Christians don't realize is just how much they are relying on faith. And it's not a bad thing that we are relying on faith! I've talked with some of my Christian friends who are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and some of them justify their belief in Christ and disbelief in Joseph Smith by saying that there is historical evidence of Jesus Christ but none for the Book of Mormon. I often have to point out that there is no archaeological evidence that Jesus was resurrected, or that He performed many of His miracles. As people of faith, we should be looking for evidence and information on our scripture and our religion, but we have to recognize how faith and revelation are ALWAYS a vital aspect.
Well to be fair, the book of Mormon is actually evidence that Christ resurrected! Every Christian realistically should hope it's true. 😂
The Book of Abraham was completely fabricated by Joseph Smith, it is actually disprovable as a false translation of the Papyrus he purchased. The Rosetta Stone was not known in Smith’s time, and he didn’t think he would get caught, but he did.
On the other hand, the Resurrection correlates with the secular accounts we have from Jesus’s time period. According to Josephus the Jewish Historian and Tacitus the Roman senator, Jesus was said to be resurrected almost immediately after his death according to his followers.
Faith can sometimes be had instead of or along side historical accounts, but it can never run contrary to the factual, evidential, and provable truth. Joseph Smith’s stories do so, where the Bible does not.
However, there is evidence of the locations in the Bible (we know where Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth, etc. are). There isn't agreement among Latter Day Saints as to where the "New World" Book of Mormon events took place, and no archeological evidence at this point. We are never going to be able to prove the resurrection from archeology, but there is evidence for Biblical people that existed in history- such as Pontius Pilate, David, many of the kings. Most importantly, there is evidence that the Biblical writings are actually ancient--the Dead Sea Scrolls show us that the Old Testament writings existed *at least* 2000 years ago. The oldest New Testament fragments are 1800 years old. There is no physical evidence that the Book of Mormon existed before it was brought forward by Joseph Smith,. The plates that Joseph Smith had are not available for examination. The Bible has many writers spread out over thousands of years, while all the evidence for what the Book of Mormon says relies on one person. The situations are very different.
@@Joygk2uh Agreed. They are very different situations. My point was simply that faith is always needed. Archaeological evidence will never be able to conclusively prove every aspect of the Gospel. And the archaeological and historical evidence situation is very different with the Book of Mormon as compared to the Bible. However, an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And like David said in the video, the old world and the new world are two very different places. If Book of Mormon sites or artifacts were found, it would be almost impossible to recognize them as evidence for the Book of Mormon. Names like Inca, Aztec, and Maya are just names that we have given them. We don't know what they called themselves. We know surprisingly little about most new world civilizations.
With the Book of Mormon, it is important to recognize what we have and what we don't have. The evidence for the Book of Mormon was never reliant on ONLY Joseph Smith. There were many witnesses, both official, and non-official, who saw the Golden Plates and never refuted their testimonies, even after some cut ties with Joseph and even became antagonistic towards him. The Book of Mormon itself is also an amazing piece of evidence. I've looking into many such explanations as to the origins of the Book of Mormon and I've never found a satisfactory explanation for Joseph Smith to have made it up.
Additionally, when one studies the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, you recognize very quickly that finding your own evidence and your own witness is a core tenet of the faith. I don't believe in the Book of Mormon because somebody else told me that there is evidence for its existence and records of its creation. I believe in it because I have received revelation from God through His Holy Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is God's church, and that Jesus is the Christ. That is where my faith comes from.
@Joygk2uh there isn't any evidence that any of the main characters in the Bible existed. Even of Jesus. They say a king or soldier but not one of the Prophets. If not for the Book of Mormon the religious world would be a mess. Even the Jehovah Witnesses began from teachings taken from the LDS church.
You are so much more peaceful than Ward Radio when it comes to this 🤣 Great work. Hope to see more of these to come. Your responses are fantastic and well mannered
I don't think Ward Radio was wrong in anything they said about this video, though. Both channels are done with the truth in mind.
Ward radio is definitely the chaotic good of LDS channels
@@frenchfriedfish1990 MUA HA HA HA!
I am not a fan of the style of Ward Radio. At all. I think they do a disservice to the church with their style.
@@michaelbennett7561 WR has a more laid back approach, where there can be conversations, on what is right and what is wrong. David doesn't seem to get along with them, and that's fine. There seems to be some bad blood between SU and Kwaku, which is sad.
Why do people consider it such an apostate idea that God would visit ALL the nations of his children? Why wouldn't God consider one soul to be as precious as another?
Every time I hear pastors and the like speak about our church, I rarely, if ever, see them actually quote our doctrine whether it be from the Book of Mormon, or other standard works, or from conference talks. While I appreciate people trying to bring others to the knowledge of Christ, they should do so without disparaging other religions and people who are trying to do the same.
That’s because the Book of Mormon 99% of the time agrees with the Bible as interpreted by mainstream Christian’s. And basically agreed 100% when you account for different interpretations. So you can’t really approach it any other way.
A traditional Christian reading the Book of Mormon will see it as affirming the Trinity (though seems to tend a bit towards Modalism rather than true Trinitarianism), saying that God is a Spirit (Alma 18), that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Mormon 9:9) and many other things that are direct quotes, or near quotes from the Bible. When I met with the missionaries and read the Book of Mormon I kept seeing "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which are one God" and telling them that I believed that. The missionaries would say "no, that means one in purpose, not one God." So we're using the same words, but mean different things.
Traditional Christians would disagree with the idea that Adam and Eve disobeying God was ultimately for good, but see it as an absolute disaster, resulting in all the sin and suffering in the world today. Many unique Latter Day Saint beliefs are not found in reading of the Book of Mormon, like the idea that God the Father has a physical body, the idea that "As man is God once was, as God is, man may become," three levels of heaven, the pre-existence, the requirement to be married to reach the highest level, etc.
@@Joygk2uh Kheori was hoping for them to look at all of our scriptures, not just The Book of Mormon. Your post makes no sense because Kheori did not type, "They should only look at The Book of Mormon." They gave so much in accurate in formation there is no way they really tried to understand what we believe.
@@Joygk2uh an informed Christian who has read and understands John 17 will recognize that the apostles are meant to become one in just the same way the the Holy Ghost, the Father, and the Son are one. Unless you think Christ prayed for the 11 remaining apostles to merge into one being numerically, we know the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in purpose. That being said, Christ is referred to as Father for 3 reasons. 1. He created the earth. 2. When we choose Christ and covenant to follow Him, He, our Brother, adopts us as His own having paid the price for us, and 3. Father is a title our Heavenly Father has given to Christ. It is confusing, but that is the answer to the verses you pointed out according to the Church of Jesus Christ.
That’s because the Book of Mormon is a false document created by Satan to send people to hell. We do not need to quote Hersey to prove our point when we have the Bible. Jesus said beware of false prophets. Mormons don’t believe that God/jesus/holy spirit are on being and believe that they are separate entities. That is heresy and a lie created by Satan. You’re in a cult. Your leaders are lying to you to keep you in a cult. Think for yourself and find the true Jesus.
5:44 I do think the idea that Joseph just ran to his garage and grabbed an old can of rustoleum lying around just to touch up his fake plates is pretty amusing
thanks for the response! I hope we can keep fostering a community of truth without disparaging other faiths.
Hey hows it going!
I can't help but leave a comment to let you know what an impact you have made on my life in navigating through my own personal faith crisis which had been influenced by many videos such as the one you are analysing.
I have watched some Saints Unscripted videos in the past and your deepened knowledge of the history of the Church debunking these videos is powerful. You and your colleagues are doing so much good for the church in better understanding the many doubts that arise.
So from the bottom of my heart, thank you for your due diligence in carrying out the Lord's work and God bless you.
Please rewatch all those videos from the beginning and you will see many errors and issues on explanations. Like FAIR who often dont hesitate to argue against themselves. Kwaku does this all the time too.
@@brucegillingham2793 Maybe you should take your own advice. Especially if you actually belong to a religion and live the commandments.
finally we see lds influencers taking on these pastors who do mean well but are misled
I think you're giving undue credit and deference to say they even mean well. It's a deliberate hit piece by at least one of these two.
@@jonathanettinger6970 fair point. Ward Radio made a good point when they said these people argue with faith when defending christianity l, but then argue like atheists and have a similar rhetoric when it comes to the Lds Church
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line.
There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense.
Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days.
If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism.
Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit.
Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25.
Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this.
Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless.
💖
You’re in a cult.
Christian believe that LDS are mislead, false Jesus, not a good foundation.
I love that you pointed out that we are NOT in the Church of Joseph Smith. People seem to be under the delusion that we worship him and that he was a perfect person. It’s sad to see other Christians misrepresent our faith, either intentionally or by ignorance. Either case is damnable since they have large followings and should appreciate the responsibility they bear to share good, credible information.
So true! I saw a preacher claim that we pray to the Moroni statues that are on top of the temple…I burst out laughing
Thank you for putting your sources in the description! I’m a member of the church and I’ve recently started reading the BoM so I can figure out if I do actually believe in it and for me have other sources helps a ton because the answers that the gospel library gives are so polished they don’t give me a good enough answer so you are helping me on my journey, Thank you!
I am not a member of the church of later day saints.
However, I deeply respect that they acknowledge that there are plenty of things that we can not prove. Christianity, in general, will call a person a heretic if they say such things.
I believe that we can believe what is in the Bible without necessary proof.
Yet, at the same time, I believe that we need to understand that not everything written down happened as mentioned.
Sometimes, things were written in a way back then that today we would understand as something very different.
The LDS church seems to understand that.
Thanks for this comment! Respect.
We can't "prove" God exists just as we can "prove" reality exists. What we do have evidence of is the life of Jesus Christ. The Christian religion does not fall apart through an evidence based approach as opposed to the latter-day saints' belief system.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line.
There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense.
Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days.
If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism.
Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit.
Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25.
Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this.
Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless.
💖
What they got wrong about JS is the same as always: they swallowed up the antimormon recicled tropes that are around since the beginning, and they are regurgitating them now in a chain of fallacies
I really appreciate your comments and insight in relation to Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle. They are both rather persuasive and compelling when it comes to so many matters of faith and religion which makes it all the more important that educated, intelligent, and faithful Latter-day Saints like you are here to push back on some of their anti-Mormon rhetoric. It's imperative that we separate the wheat from the chaff instead of just getting caught up in everything they say, regardless of how much real truth they actually do communicate and defend. Thank you!
I really like to listen to them, but they're not living the Golden Rule. They're not treating others with the respect they expect.
If the apostle Paul ever had a modern day twin, it was Joseph Smith. They both spent time in jail for being followers of Jesus Christ and wrote letters from prison that became scripture loved by the Saints!
They do have those two things in common, but I can't get on board with the twin thing. 😊
@@jay6562 why was Joseph smith in jail?
@@crackshot_cashew9385Lots of people hated Joseph Smith- many still do in fact- and they made up false charges to try to ruin him. Many people also tried to kill him because of his beliefs and what he claimed to have seen.
@@janellehoward7873 what were the false charges if you don’t mind my asking?
@@crackshot_cashew9385 There are others who could answer that far better than me, but I tried my best.
Regarding attempting to fabricate the plates. As Martin Harris said, Joseph "had not the credit to purchase so much lead." Just the materials would have been prohibitively expensive not to mention the time.Johna Barnes made himself a replica. Using modern materials, including commercialy available sheets of brass it took eight months just to engrave the plates. And he only did one side and i think his characters were bigger.
Who saw the plates?
@@Yeezus20 I am not sure I understand what you are asking in this case, but Joseph, the three, the eight and Mary Whitmer saw the plates unobstructed.
Emma dealt with them regularly while wrapped up as did Martin and Oliver and other members of the Smith family.
@@Yeezus20 Jonah showed his of on an episode of Ward Radio.
- Garments are Biblical.
- Is he not aware that multiple prophets in the Bible practiced polygamy?
Just because people practiced polygamy in the Bible doesn't mean it was ever okay. I'm curious where in the scriptures it talks about garments. Do you have a chapter and verse?
@@brittianyclements1821thank you. These are specifically Old Testament temple clothes. Have a tough time seeing them is exactly the same thing. I find it interesting that garments are not mentioned in the Book of Mormon or the New Testament. I have a tough time seeing the need for 24/7 garments. Temple garments worn at the temple I can wrap my head around. Anyway, thank you for sharing a source.
@freesaints: Polygamy is a temporary practice; the norm is Monogany. Without polygamy, the Saints could not have survived from an economic, social, and demographic perspective.
@@Irvingdectorsection 132 from the Doctrine & Covenants does not make it seem like a temporary practice. From that section it would appear that it is a requirement for exaltation. I appreciate your thoughts, but I just tend to disagree. I have serious doubts that polygamy was ever necessary. I used to believe it was necessary and warranted, but as I have read historical records and documents from the time I've been persuaded to believe otherwise.
@@freesaints I believe D&C 132 is partly true. Were you aware that it was published decades after JS died? It wouldn't be the first thing that the leaders in Utah did that was contrary to what JS did/thought.
Love these videos and content. I was investigating the church for eight years and channels like this really helped me understand tackling the difficult topics.
Oftentimes I come across a video that leaves me thinking "I couldn't have said it better myself". This is one of those videos. Excellent video!
They also brush past the fact that plural marriage has been practiced in the bible and in many other cultures.
…yet none of the Apostles practiced polygamy, why is that?
Read 1st Timothy in the Bible. It’s clear that all the deacons, elders and bishops are to have no more than one wife.
Isn’t your church supposed to be the original church restored? That church never practiced polygamy.
Doesn’t the Book of Mormon condemn polygamy as an abomination?
If Joseph Smith was an eye witness of Jesus, just like Paul, then why are they so vastly different in their practice of marriage and polygamy?
💯
It was not condoned in the Bible. Done, is not the same as okay. Even Jesus says one man and one woman in a marriage and that Jesus is to love and serve her as he loves the church. She obviously is also to love and serve him with all her heart as her own flesh.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line.
There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense.
Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days.
If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism.
Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit.
Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25.
Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this.
Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless.
💖
@@ari3lz3pp ...very interesting
@@BGCflyer We believe single marriage is the normal standard. The people in the bible would have had only one wife if God didn't tell them to have multiple. same goes for the latter-day saints. We believe God told us to have multiple wives for a time. Why? no one knows but God. We don't know why God commanded us to do these things. But He did. None of the apostles practiced polygamy because God didn't tell them to.
Yes. we we believe we are the original church restored. "That church never practiced polygamy" -- because God never told them to. He did in the Bible though. It doesn't matter what God commanded people to do in the past, it matters what He commands us to do today. Don't take that the wrong way -- i mean at different time periods, God will command us to do different things. For example, He instituted the Law of Moses. We don't practice the Law of Moses anymore. But God commanded the Israelites to practice it, so they did. If I was an Israelite at that time period I would have practiced the Law of Moses too. Because it was what God commanded them to do. He doesn't command us to do it anymore though, so we don't.
The book of mormon condemns having multiple wives and concubines as an abomination, yes. It is a sexual sin. The early church members didn't practice polygamy out of lust like the Nephites did, though. Theres a difference between doing it out of lust and doing it for the reason that God commanded you to. God didn't command the Nephites to have multiple wives, so if they did, it would be contrary to His commandments. It all depends on what God is commanding you to do, and as I said earlier, we may not always know WHY He commands us to do certain things. All we can do is trust in Him.
7:37 so he believes in the Doctrine and Covenants because Kirtland exists. Got it.
Also, Sherlock Holmes are factual accounts, because London.
Thank you for voicing many things that I have wanted to share in a public sphere. I am nervous about creating content. I appreciate your bravery.
David you did a great job with this response instead of a reaction! You are awesome! I love your testimony that goes along with this message too.
I love pastor Cliff's content, but his completely ignorant positions on the church are very disappointing.
Amen, he should stick with confronting atheism until he gets more educated
That’s how I feel about a lot of non-lds Christian apologists when it comes to our church.
Who could've guessed that two evangelical pastors would grossly misrepresent church history and theology and use stupid historicity arguments. If anyone wants to know how to rebuttal this kind of argument watch the Bart Ehrman vs Justin Bass debate, really educatuonal, these guys would benefit from it a lot.
His comment about Paul coming down instead of working up is interesting. Does he trust Paul more than Christ?
what do you mean by coming down??? and no we trust christ obviously more than paul. But you missed the point.... Paul is a historical figure who wrote historical written documents about Jesus Christ and through the eye witnesses who knew Christ accepted his writtings as true and reliable.
@@Lolesio20 so you accept the Doctrine & Covenants because the historical places exist I guess. Also there were lots of witnesses and joint visions.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line.
There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense.
Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days.
If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism.
Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit.
Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25.
Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this.
Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless.
💖
Faith, the Holy Ghost, and Testimony are what convinced me of the Truth. ❤
Joseph Smiths polygamy is always under question but King Davids polygamy is perfectly fine.
Well let's be fair King David suffered because of his polygamy and God did not like King David being with all those women. Same with Solomon.
Except that God NEVER commanded polygamy and David isn’t even historically a man.. they haven’t proven his existence. You need to read Biblical history
@@Cocoon68 The Bible states that God gave David his wives. Perhaps you need to read Biblical history. (?)
@@Cocoon68 regardless. Those who accept king David and his apx. 600 wives,and concubines reject Joseph Smith on account of his polygamy.
@@justjamie6458 A big part of the issue around Smith's polygamy is how vehemently he denied it, to his wife, his associates, but especially to the public. Then when proof inevitably was made public of his marriages to 14 year old teenagers (no, this was not "normal" at the time), or mother-daughter pairs, people understandably got ticked about it, and didn't want the church in their town.
Here is the problem I have with other Christian faiths...Can a man bring others closer to Christ, if they really don't know him? Christ makes it pretty clear what he thinks of such...Any man who seeks to do good is far closer to Christ, than a Christian who would murder a man for a preceived evil...I would bet that if one could go back in time and poll the men who killed Joseph Smith, one would be shocked at the number who claimed to be Christian. A clear indication would be "contention". Exactly what these two men are doing.
Evidence deteriorates very quickly in areas of high vegetation growth compared to the deserts of the old world.
This is literally not true at all
I'm literally poopy.
But anyways surely different climates have SOME effect on artifacts.
@@alexandertwol
I mean a notebook will break down in a humid area bc it will get wet.
A notebook could sit in the sand for 100 years and be fine.
@@dalecash2236 …so how then do we have all the Mayan artifacts, temples, etc? They lived during the time of the Nephites.
@@BGCflyer Obviously, some elements are more durable than others. Cementuous materials tend to be very durable in a variety of climate conditions, whereas other materials may not be so durable. For example, steel will rust away with moisture, whereas other metals are less susceptible to that. Deterioration rates of bio-degradable materials vary a lot based on the environment in which they exist.
Can someone address this? The major issues Christians or outsiders have with the LDS Church-eternal marriage, temple ordinances, the Word of Wisdom, the plan of salvation, and Heavenly Father having a body-aren't found in the Book of Mormon. These key doctrines rely on Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price, not the Book of Mormon, which raises the question: If the Book of Mormon is the 'most correct book,' why aren't these core teachings in it? If Joseph Smith was a prophet, do we have to accept all his revelations without question? How does it make sense to pick and choose?
David, you are too kind. Those 2 obviously never tried to find out what we actually believe.
I dont think you know what the church actually believes because nothing they said was wrong or incorrect. Is was regularly taught that god was once a man who had millions of gods before him and he lived a good life and got his own planet Kolab. All the men of the LDS church were eligible to ascend to Godhood get their own planet and multitudes of wives. You may want to research the news to see the lawsuits brought against the church by church members for the ever changing doctrine. Essentially you have members that are in their 60 and 70s suing the church they were brought up in because of the doctruine changes and then the open denial it was changed. The one LDS member was such a faithful member of the church that he kept all the literature he was given while attending through his life and demonstrated to the News Caster contradictions and changes in the church writings.
@@brucegillingham2793 You're just a liar telling half truths.
Amazing video! Thanks for sharing this response I hope those pastors get to see this to better understand what we really believe
I am surprised that a Christian would mock and ridicule a symbol of the suffering, crucifixion, atonement, shedding of blood, and death of Jesus Christ. In Genesis we read the Lord made garments out of coats of skins and covered their nakedness, implying the death and shedding of blood of animals, perhaps lambs. Abel's offering of an animal was accepted, but Cain's offering of fruits and vegetables was not. The garments covered their nakedness, but also was symbolic of the covering of our sins by His atonement. We know that it is faith in Christ that healings and miracles are wrought, and not by crosses, holy water from the River Jordan, golden Chablis cups, candles, or garments. And crosses of themselves or rosarys do not ward off vampires or evil spirits; but are symbols a nd reminders of our faith. Still we do not mock the symbols, nor caps of Jews and Catholics, or robes, candles, frocks and staffs of pastors. Symbols teach us and remind us of Christ and His crucifixion and atonement; but they aren't Christ, nor do we worship them.
You should do a series of videos addressing claims in the CES letter. Love the video, I feel like you articulated your opinion very well, and I think it would be useful to have someone in the faith address the letter because I haven't seen many effectively do so yet. Subscribed. Thank you for focusing on faith building amidst criticisms.
IF you check out the Faith and Beliefs videos from Saints Unscripted, pretty much every concern in the CES Letter has been addressed.
Thank you for the video! I'm glad I stumbled upon it. New subscriber.
Thank you David! I love your videos, they always strengthen my testimony!
Love your videos. Wish these pastors actually researched different religions in order to speak more intelligently about them.
Great video. I wish it was longer. I was really enjoying it. Well done!
I find the LDS church to be false just as they find my beliefs to be false. But love them and who they are. They are some of the Greatest people Ive ever got the chance to meet. I hope they have great lives and The Lord Blesses them.
I can respect that.
They don’t call them “magic underwear” because they think you teach they’re gonna make you invisible or something like that, They call them because we know that members have been taught that they supposedly protect people from literal physical harm.
Come now, I resent being called a subset.
Yeah...
What did Silvia Sessions tell Josephine?
Who wrote the happiness letter?
Who shifted something of a foster parent relationship into a marriage relationship and repeated his sealing to those young women "for Emma's sake?
Who locked up Martha Brotherton?
Who already had plural wives and told a married woman an Angel with a flaming sword would kill him?
That's especially ironic in the context of Joseph saying he would "go to hell for such a woman..." as quoted in Joseph Smith the Prophet by Truman Madsen.
A reluctant man would have lived according to the law of Sarah as written in D&C 132 if he were living Prophetically consistent and sent such an Angel off to convince Emma.
Polygamy in Ancient Israel was cultural, not doctrinal. Maybe the "Angel" with a flaming sword was the same that visited Korihor (Alma 30:18) to lead men & women to commit whoredoms.
I can't undo my ancestors experiences with polygamy. I do have a renewed compassion for evils Brigham Young escalated with the debauchery. Requiring polygamy of men, or excommunicating them for Apostasy if the refused and rescinding any call to leadership was one way Brigham Young was every bit as evil as Warren Jeffs and reallocated women & children like a prize to be won for showing Brigham fealty.
When it comes to Brigham Young, Zina & Henry... though Henry wasn't killed the story is similar to David, Bathsheba, & Uriah.
Brian Hales fallacious Apologetic - argument from silence on the CES Letters Podcast recently is quite contrary to his own statements made on Mormon Stories Podcast years ago discussing his book where he did say that there was too much evidence to not say Josephine Lyon was biologically Joseph Smith Jr's child. Yes I know he reversed that stance after the DNA studies were completed and pointed to Windsor.
He, Brian Hales,appears to be going the same route as Kerry Muhlstein when he admitted his confirmation bias approach to the Abraham revelation. The most important data is what allows us to paint Joseph Smith Jr in the most positive and faith promoting way- we must therefore reject anything, even if from credible sources, that may tell a different story.
There isn't a good faith defense of Joseph Smith Jr & polygamy/ polyandry. If he was a Prophet he would know in someway the damage it would lead to, and what FLDS Warren Jeffs would do with it. It's a weasels "tails you lose, heads I win" game the Apologetics play defending Joseph Smith Jr & his polygamy. The numbers & practice are obvious to a philandering enjoyment- not a reluctant pious Prophet who would go to hell for such a woman. How many of our leaders served mission's in Europe, telling people that the Church didn't practice polygamy, only to find out after emigrating to Utah that it was being practiced? The mountain of lies told in defense of this debaucheryeclipse the mound of lies told about Mountain Meadows Massacre. The polygamy apologetics are laughable, fallacious Apologetics- the end.
Thank you! There were many who didn’t believe Jesus Christ was the son of God in his day either. We shouldn’t be surprised that his chosen latter-day prophet would be recognised in our day either. God tells us in our hearts and our minds (that’s the process of revelation) when we are willing to put forth the effort to know whether Jesus Christ is the son of God and whether he did choose Joseph Smith to be a prophet. But you need to ‘want’ to know! Some seem to have already made up their minds what they want to believe.
Matthew 7:15: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves"
Thanks for reacting to the video. Those 2 preachers stepped over the line. Though, like many people, many trust the scriptures and people's testimonies, but the only true way to be sure is a spiritual experience yourself. That's how I've come to know the truth. (I don't know everything, but the things God shared with me, I can't deny).
and the reality is this ... very few "witnesses" wrote about jesus.
for example paul was not a witness of jesus. paul claims to have met the resurrected jesus, on the road to damascus ... but not a single witness corroborated it. and several of the books credited to paul, were written by someone else. not paul.
luke was not an eye witness.
mark was not an eye witness.
John was, Matthew was. Scholars agree that Jesus existed with multiple outside sources corroborating his existence.
Paul was…. The road of Damascus he came in contact with the living Christ. These eyewitnesses were willing to die for what they saw.
Rather with the three witnesses, they left with only two of them returning.
@@JonathanRodriguez-dw1fg
nope.
not a single witness of paul on the road to damascus ever confirmed it.
@@Yeezus20
nope.
not a single scholar claims john or matthew were eye witnesses to paul's conversion on the road to damascus.
@@JonathanRodriguez-dw1fg
nope.
sorry, you are wrong.
not a single person that was with paul on the road to damascus confirmed that paul saw jesus.
all we have is the word of paul.
and not even written by paul.
but by luke.
so the reality is we do not even have the written word of paul
claiming he saw jesus on the road to damascus.
just a second hand source.
luke.
David, thanks for this video. Love the concise answers while maintaining charity for these folks. It’s sad how blatantly some misconstrue what we believe without taking the time to appreciate the truth which is oftentimes more nuanced, and consistently more beautiful. Thanks again.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line.
There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense.
Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days.
If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism.
Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit.
Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25.
Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this.
Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless.
💖
As a believing member, most of these types of comments in the video sound so obviously ridiculous. But it makes me wonder… what beliefs do I have about other groups that sounds as far off base to members of those groups?
Believing in both of them has also brought me closer to Jesus Christ. I am super grateful for their testimonies.
I’m so grateful the Holy Ghost testified to me that Joseph Smith is truly one of Heavenly Father’s prophets.
Wasn’t the Holy Ghost it was satan
Not the Holy Ghost sister. Pls, I urge you. The Bible is clear when it comes to gospels contradicting the one given by Jesus
Amen sister ❤️
@keystonelds I was curious about something you said around 13:30 in your video. You said that LDS believe that we are of the same "kind" of "eternal stuff" as God. Can you clarify what you mean by this? I grew up in a non-LDS church and for as long as I remember we have always emphasized the creator/creature distinction as a key part of our understanding of God in relation to creation. God is uncreated (according to biblical teaching) and we are creatures. How is it, then, that we could ever say that we are made up of the same "eternal stuff" as God? It seems that to affirm that is to blur the creator/creature distinction in a way that contradicts what the Bible teaches. Yes, humans are made in God's images and therefore share some qualities God has that we also have (which we call "communicable attributes"), but there are also many attributes that God has that we never will (which we call "non-communicable attributes"). Of these non-communicable attributes one of the key ones is God's eternal self-existence (or "aseity"). Humans are contingent beings whose existence is dependent on something outside their selves, but God is a necessary being whose existence is not dependent on something outside himself. Given all this, I would like to know what you mean by the idea that we are made of the same "eternal stuff" as God. If I understand what you mean by that statement then it really seems like you are trying to say that the difference between us and God is not one of kind but one of degree. If that is what you are saying then that contradicts what Christians have been saying about the difference between God and humans for 2,000 years and what Jews have been saying about the difference between God and humans for 4,000+ years. It is hard to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet sent by God to "restore" the church if he taught things about God and humans that contradict what the Bible says and what the church for the past 2,000 years has taught. So, when I am asked to trust that what Joseph Smith is saying is true based on his testimony that also means that I have to distrust what the church has taught about God for 2,000 years. That is too heavy a price to pay for me to trust in Joseph. I think the church is right about the creator/creature distinction and I think the LDS teaching on the ontological relationship between humans is incorrect. I hope I am understanding you correctly and I hope that you understand why I am asking about this. I spoke with LDS elders about these sorts of questions and over time it became clear to me that elders aren't trained to handle these kinds of intellectual questions but rather to help people cultivate their faith which is why I stopped meeting with the elders. You seem to me to be a reasonable person who has thought through their faith which is why I think I will make much more headway asking you this question rather than an elder.
Feel free to message me on Instagram or Facebook about this (just look up "Keystonelds"). Happy to chat.
@jacobjensen1730
Jacob Hansen of the "Thoughtful Faith" youtube channel has also addressed ideas similar to this topic in his various videos, so you might check those out also, along with messaging/chatting with David Snell.
Those kinds of questions are pretty deep, and so folks can speculate to a large degree when discussing them. My own personal opinion is that in our current mortal, temporary, physically-based state, things of a spiritual and eternal nature, into the far distant past and future, are very difficult for us to comprehend.
It also seems to me that the idea that God has been God, exactly as He is today, throughout the past eternities is a difficult concept to grasp on its own, and I suspect may be a cultural assumption rather than a 'revealed truth'. For example, the 'beginning' mentioned in John 1 seems to imply that there was a beginning point to our current creation event, rather than a static eternity into the far distant past.
There is also some pretty strong evidence that the Nicene Creed, which was the source of the current prevailing Christian ideas of the trinity, was influenced by the prevailing Greek philosophy and religious teachings of that time, opening up the possibility that it is not quite in sync with what the earlier Christians taught and believed.
I'm also happy to discuss these ideas more with you if you like :)
I cannot wait until the sealed portion of the Brass Plates is opened and read upon the housetops. Not going to happen until we have faith like the Brother of Jared did. But, until then, we are to exercise our faith. If it was all given to us, where would our progression come from? ❤
Yes, but I think you mean the Gold Plates. The Brass Plates were what Nephi Brough from Jerusalem. The Gold Plates have the prophecies of the Brother of Jared sealed, and I am also excited to learn what they contain, someday.
@@ephraimcullen obviously, someone knew what I meant, even if I worded it incorrectly. LOL!!!
Very well articulated. I like your thinking and fairness. Subbed
"Blessed art thou...for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee" Christ taught that the basis of our faith should be faith and revelation from God, not historical (flesh) sources
Amen, David, thank you for this video!
Great work - these guys are great debunking atheists, but their critiques on Mormonism are laughable.
Pastors can only ever be useful middling preachers. They have more light than the pagan and the hedonist, but lack the higher-level living spirit of God found only in the Church
What is interesting to me is that we can defend J.S and say "he didn't have sexual relations with all those women!" Then awkwardly ignore Brigham Young and his 57 children... and 56 wives...
"magic underwear?" You mean sacred symbol of my commitment to Jesus Christand His covering Atonement of my sins?
Its like a musical masterpiece being classified as noise.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line.
There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense.
Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days.
If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism.
Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit.
Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25.
Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this.
Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless.
💖
i really like your handle. Very nice.
@@johnmatthews4099 thanks. I’m trying in my super small way to share the light of God.
I love your channel bro. Thank you for doing this video. You always build up my faith. Please don't stop.
Joseph Smith was and is a True Prophet of God
The Book of Mormon is True
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's church and Kingdom.
No man can come to God except thru Jesus Christ.
Well said Dave and very well defended. Appreciate that you reacted to these pastors in such a respectful way.
Joseph Smith repeatedly, and very clearly, stated where the Book of Mormon lands were and are: in the lower Great Lakes region, U.S.A. He was asked, pointedly, where the Book of Mormon took place and he said where the western tribes of Indians (Native Americans) live. In the 1830's, that was: Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and Missouri, exactly where he sent missionaries to THE Lamanites, as read in D&C 28, 30 and 32. Joseph taught the Sac and Fox Native Americans, that the Book of Mormon is a record of THEIR ancestors. Joseph clearly stated that he and others walked over the mounds of the Nephites, picking up their skulls and bones as evidence of them, while walking through: Ohio, IN, IL, MO. Joseph testified of Lamanite's bones, found in Illinois, and identified the city Manti, in N.E. Missouri, and Zarahemla, in eastern IA, where thousands of mounds and artifacts have been found, in the exact location Joseph Smith said the Nephites and Lamanites lived. Nephite cities and villages were made of wood, which burnt down, which we have ample evidence of. PLEASE stop the false Mesoamerica theory, the Mayans sailed from Thailand in: ~2000 B.C.E., to Guatemala and have NOTHING to do with the Lehites and Mulekites, or Jaredites. Maya is an Asian-Indian word and the Maya brought their stepped pyramids, deity, language and culture from Thailand-Cambodia, to Central America. The Native Americans of the Great Lakes, Mississippi and Ohio Rivers, have virtually nothing in common with others living in the Americas. Over 90% of Bible towns and villages have never been located. The towns they think they have located, are best guesses, with no verifiable proof. Jericho, Nazareth, and many other Bible towns have never been located. The Exodus has never been proven, nor any of the cities and villages of the ancient patriarchs, pre-Noah. Accept it on faith, or don't, no proof will be given.
There are many sources from the latter part of Joseph’s life where he referred to ancient ruins in central/meso America as the ruins of a great Nephite civilization. Joseph also talked about the events of the Book of Mormon taking place all the way down in South America at times. So if we’re going to take quotes from the Prophet, we should look at all of them. What we know is that Mormon hid up a large collection of records in a hill named Cumorah and then his son, Moroni, buried the part of those records that Mormon gave him in another hill in upstate New York several years later which was never given a name in the text. This hill would be called Cumorah by the early members of the restored church. To cap it all off, the Book of Mormon tells us that the people spread to cover the whole face of the land, and the scriptures never tell us that the mulekites, lehites, and jaredites are the only people living in the Americas, so it’s not impossible to imagine that Nephi and his people were interacting with other peoples and converting them to Christ and making new Nephites. I’m not saying you’re wrong about North America and Book of Mormon geography, but I am saying that you shouldn’t call other models flatly false, especially when that model resonates substantially with what the record says.
@MrArtist7777:
A 'Heartland as Hinterland, Mesoamerican Core' model, which Mark Alan Wright wrote a book about, can reasonably explain all of Joseph Smith's statements about various Nephite and Lamanite tribes' presence in lands north of Mexico, along with their descendants. I subscribe to that model currently, as it is, in my opinion, the best fit so far between the actual Book of Mormon text and the physical evidence at the locations described in that model. The correspondences, using sound mainstream scientific and archaeological research, are numerous and quite compelling. I have studied the various Book of Mormon geographical models extensively.
As for the actual Zarahemla and Manti city locations, it is a huge stretch and an unwarranted misconnection to say that the texts you referred to are saying that those 2 places named as such in the 19th century historical records were the actual locations of the Book of Mormon cities with the same names. The official church doctrine certainly has never made such a claim, nor will it ever make such a claim. Our official doctrine is that there is no such claim.
As for Mayan civilization sailing from Thailand in ~2000 B.C. and that their language and culture came from that part of SE Asia at that time: well, it appears that we are using completely different sources for our ancient world history and archaeological information. I use reputable mainstream scientific sources which say that the Mayan civilization and languages and genetics, along with the other ancient peoples of the Americas, were indigenous and ultimately descended from their very distant ancestors, who came through the Bering Strait over 10,000 years ago. Also the native Americans of the Great Lakes, Mississippi, and Ohio Rivers (Hopewell and Adena) were descended from earlier native American tribes who were in North America. There is no evidence that they were of more recent Middle Eastern origin. The 'X' mtdna 'evidence' that the Heartland folks like to make use of, is totally incorrect and is a complete misinterpretation of mainstream genetic science. Additionally, I would not expect to find any surviving old world dna, related to the Book of Mormon text, in modern native American peoples given both the very small number of immigrants in each party compared to the much larger native population, along with the fact that about 90% of the native American gene pool was lost during the Columbian exchange. That doesn't mean necessarily that most or all native Americans don't have Lehi and/or his party of immigrants among their many ancestors, but it simply means that Lehi's party's dna contribution as a percentage of their total dna makeup is very likely too small to detect, so cannot be proven. I agree with the other commenter who implied that many of the native peoples in the areas where the Nephites lived (and migrated to) were converted to their religious faith and thus became "Nephites". Eventually I believe that the native gene pool dominated over time, to the point where the old world dna was no longer detectable, using current dna analytical methods.
Jericho was located. There’s very clear evidence of it in Palestine, with a double layer wall that collapsed and burning immediately after, which is fully consistent with the accounts of the Bible. The burned pottery remains also match timewise with the arrival of the Israelites from Egypt around 1400 BC.
No such evidence exists for the Lamanites, or any other of Joseph Smith’s named tribes.
Where the heck did you get your info about the Mayans coming from Thailand?
@whitebeans7292:
Regarding 'Lamanites', their definition in the Book of Mormon is quite broad: basically meaning every group of people that was opposed to the Nephites. The 'Nephites' were pretty much defined as those who were part of a particular group whom the Lamanites were opposing, among whom were those who believed in God and were trying to follow the teachings of the Judeo-Christian-like religion brought over and practiced by those who followed Nephi after he parted ways with his brothers Laman and Lemuel. Like the ancient Israelites, they were a mixture of those who believed in God and tried to follow their religious teachings and those who had fallen away from their religious faith and became wicked, following the beliefs of surrounding 'worldly' cultures and groups, as well as those who no longer believed in their religion, but who nevertheless weren't necessarily 'wicked'.
The similarities of the Nephites and Lamanites with the Israelites and their surrounding Canaanite cultures ends pretty much there. There are major differences, such as:
1) Like David Snell alluded to in the video: we don't know exactly where the Nephites lived. However, in the Mesoamerican model, which I subscribe to, certain areas within the Chiapas and Tabasco regions of southern Mexico are plausible Nephite locations. They all have hot moist climates which are not conducive to perishable records' preservation, unlike the fairly arid climates of the Levant in the Middle East. Also, the prime candidate for Zarahemla is currently under a reservoir, Lake Angostura, created by the creation of the Angostura dam in the 1970's. Some excavations were done prior to the dam's creation, which showed some interesting correspondences with the Zarahemla of the Book of Mormon (Santa Rosa Mesoamerican site).
2) The Nephites are thought to have been part of a larger culture, and as such, it would likely prove difficult to find artifacts that might distinguish them from the native American culture that they were immersed in. In the Mesoamerican model, they are thought to have been part of the Zoquean culture of southern Mexico, which is believed to have descended from the more ancient Olmec culture.
3) Since the Lamanites were defined as 'those who opposed the Nephites', it would be even harder to find any artifacts among the Mayans or other cultures in that part of southern Mexico or Guatemala which could betray an Old World influence. There have been some interesting artifacts that could show an old world influence, but nothing that is completely conclusively definitive. This is reasonable to expect, so I'm not surprised by that.
4) The immigrant parties described in the Book of Mormon were very small compared to the pre-existing much larger native population. As such, artifacts that would survive in that climate would be very hard to come by, especially when you add the fact that the climate is not conducive to preservation, the fact that we often don't know exactly where to look, etc.
5) Unlike in Israel and Judah, since the immigrant groups were very small in number, I believe that the Old World writing system and spoken language of the immigrants was confined only to the ruling/priestly class lineage who kept the records on the gold/brass plates, with their families and descendants likely being bi-lingual, and the main body of the culture being more native-American in both spoken language and writing. I believe they had many converts amongst the native peoples, and as the centuries went by, the percentage of native culture and language increased amongst the Nephites and/or the followers of their original religion. This would make the likelihood of finding evidence of Old World culture even less likely.
Thanks for sharing this. I really appreciate the kind and understanding approach to those who find fault with our faith and beliefs. That is one of the things I really appreciate about our faith is that we don't make a habit of finding fault with other religions, but actually try to look for the good in them.
Even though the Cliffe and Stuart likely mean well, and are doing what they think is right, I am not all all impressed with their approach. They would do better to follow Jeff McCullough's example. From my overall impressions, Jeff has a really good spirit about him and is very non-contentious, while Cliffe and Stuart exude the spirit of contention in many of their interviews and discussions, and I have watched a few of them. It is one thing to stand firm in your beliefs, but it is another thing to go too far with that firmness by being overbearing and contentious. I think that contentiousness comes out in the open when they misrepresent and find fault with other religions, such as ours. I just watched an interview between Cliffe Knectle and Matt Dillahunty, and I wasn't at all impressed with the way Cliffe handled that.
I think you achieve a good balance here by defending our beliefs from misrepresentation and falsehoods, while not personally attacking those sharing those bad ideas, but by being understanding and thoughtful towards them, gently inviting them to have a more informed and accurate approach to our faith.
Little footage used of Pastor 1, but Pastor 2...
You're far more congenial than he deserves. I can start to count both the fallacies and false information he gives. He makes prosperity gospel preachers seem benevolent by comparison.
And I am SO holding back on the words I COULD use for him.
If you need some rage catharsis the Ward Radio video is great for that. It's why I feel both of these channels are super important.
There ARE NO SIGNATURES on the witness statement!
Well Said brother!
How the heck would anyone know the truth about how many women he slept with? What an ignorant thing to claim.
Speaking of archeology, the statement that there is no archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon in the new world is premature at best. There’s only been what 2% of the land has been excavated? (Don’t know the real number but it’s extremely small). That’s like saying you have only looked Arkansas and discovered that there are no large bodies of water, thus there are no large bodies of water in the entire American continents.
Plus, you need to take into account the events of 3 Nephi 8&9. At Jesus's crucifixion, it says that mountains went in the sea, and the sea was raised up, etc. I'm sure that the topography of the area looked very different from before. 3 Nephi 8:12 says that the entire face of the earth was changed! Cities were burned to the ground. Cities were sunk. Cities were carried off in whirlwind.
People might consider that this all could affect archeology and perhaps even which area that Lehi and Nephi first settled.
@@gwengold8154 Thats circular logic. Find an archeologist who isn't in the church who agrees with that.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line.
There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense.
Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days.
If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism.
Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit.
Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25.
Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this.
Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless.
💖
Your channel has become one of my very top favorites! ❤️☀️
I do like their campus ministry. However evangelical Christians often get it wrong on Mormons. They also think there is a Trinity which is incorrect. Cliffe has said Jesus was God. That's not what Christ said while alive on earth. And it is not based on scripture.
I am LDS, but Jesus definitely alluded to the idea of being God
When Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I AM,” that is the clearest possible statement of Divinity one could make to a 1st century Jewish audience.
Is He older than Abraham? ✅
Is He an eternal being? ✅
Is He using God’s name as revealed to Moses? ✅
Did people try to stone Him for blasphemy immediately after? ✅
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
The Book of Mormon itself attests that Jesus is Divine. The title page of the Book of Mormon states that part of the purpose of the book is to persuade all people that: “Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.”.
Mosiah 3:5 states the following:
For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
One of the key themes of the Book of Mormon is that Jesus Christ is the God of Israel, under the direction of His Father, and that He came down and became mortal like us to suffer for our pains, redeem all from death and those who believe in His name from sin, and to bring us back to Him and His Father. That is the good news. That is the gospel of Jesus Christ that the prophets and apostles have declared.
John 1:1:5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Revelation 22:12-22:13
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according to his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
As someone who converted from mormonism to Christianity, I found this video to be very respectful and well spoken. I may not agree with mormonism, but that doesn't mean we're not all worshipping the same Savior. God bless, my friend. 🙏
Fire vid man!!!!
Thanks man (or potentially Miranda Cosgrove)!
Well well well just stumbled onto a new channel I’m definitely subscribing to!!
Well done D.S.
(John 6:37-40)
ALL Those
The FATHER
GIVES ME
Will Come to ME,
and
Whoever Comes
to ME
I Will NEVER
Drive Away....!!
For I have
Come Down
From HEAVEN
NOT to do 'MY WILL'
But to do
"The WILL Of HIM
WHO Sent ME...!!"
And THIS is
the WILL Of HIM
WHO Sent ME,
that
I Shall Lose NONE
Of ALL THOSE
HE has GIVEN ME,
But Raise Them Up
at the LAST DAY...!!
For MY FATHER’s WILL
is that
"EVERYONE
Who Looks to
the SON and
BELIEVES in HIM
Shall have
ETERNAL LIFE,
(John 14:6,
and
I WILL Raise Them Up
at the LAST DAY....!!”
(John 10:14-15)
✝️ “I AM
the GOOD SHEPHERD;
'I KNOW MY SHEEP
(Ephesians 1:4-6, 2:10,
2 Timothy 1:9)
and
MY SHEEP KNOW ME-
(John 14:26-27)
JUST as
The FATHER KNOWS ME
and I KNOW
The FATHER-
and
✝️ "I Lay Down
MY LIFE
For the SHEEP...!!"🐑
Fantastic responses! Thank you for defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and being a great apologist. May your videos spread far and wide.
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line.
There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense.
Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days.
If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism.
Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit.
Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25.
Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this.
Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless.
💖
Do you have any non mormon sources for your beliefs. Like an agnostic historian studying Joseph Smith and early Mormonism?
“Own their own planet” give me a break!
I agree much of the Bible is supposed to be believed due to faith, but even science takes faith...literally nothing can be proven 100% because we are NOT GODS...stick with me...we are innately fallible beings. This is why even to this day many scientific facts are proven to be false later down the line.
There IS evidence for Jesus being resurrected. From the plethora of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but external documents, as well as new laws being changed due to the way the grave was handled, and if the Roman soldiers were caught not guarding a tomb they would be in big trouble, but not as much as if they lied. Why would non-believers in Christ testify that they don't know how it was done, that they had been guarding the tomb, and no one came or went....risking death? That makes no sense.
Speaking of the tomb, Jesus left the shroud neatly folded because this is Jewish symbolism when the head of household would get up from the table but symbolize that he will be back. JUST AS in ALL the other symbolism of the Christian-Judeo holy days and celebrations....The gospels say we are grafted into new covenant to fulfill law not to abolish it. YHWH APPOINTED holy days for us. Passover has way too many for me to leave here; I'll try to condense it. Jesus cleansed the temple, Jews were cleansing of Chametz, Moses had a triumphal exodus away from oppressors, Jesus a triumphal entry to the lion's den so-to-speak. Jesus had the FOUR DAYS OF TESTING, Jewish tradition of 4 days testing the paschal lamb for the Passover sacrifice. He had an early seder because he would be sacrificing Himself and dying at the same time the community Paschal lamb was being sacrificed. He rested on the Passover sabbath (sabbath=day of rest), three days through the weekly Sabbath, to rise the next day. He was the FIRST FRUITS. These are two appointed "days" in which we see the GLORY of ELOHIM, the son bringing new meaning to the holy days.
If you look into the traditional seder feast and striped Afikomen etc there is even more symbolism.
Easter/Ishtar/Ashra.....is a Roman/Pagan Catholic formation. Christmas too. Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, it's not an appointed high holy day but arguably still holy and for Christians. The oppressed Jews fought back against being told to worship false gods, and presented with a miracle thereafter. With Christian symbolism of the Shamash candle and being the light to serve and bring the 9 fruit of the holy spirit.
Jesus was born during Sukkot. He had dwelled in human flesh in human flesh and was born to dwell with us as man, Emmanuel. The BIBLE points to all of this. It's based on the events of the city being so full with pilgrims as well as the events of his (earthly) cousin John's birth. Time of change vs time of cold and death. His specific birth day would not be made important based on the patterns of the Word...because he was making clear the importance of the renewed HOLY DAYS like Sukkot which changes based on the moon cycle; VS one stagnant day like Saturnalia Dec 25.
Early carvings, before the catholic church show Jesus as the average Jewish man (in appearance), just as the TORAH predicts. The Romans that had been losing grasp of their power needed a way to control, they have done very well using Christianity and twisting it to have power, now the pope works with WEF but anyway...they chose to depict YHWH falsely as a man with a grey beard (Jupiter), not Biblically accurate, and to depict Jesus as their God Saturn. Saturnalia Saturn. Day for hedonism, Christmas ham coming from other pagan traditions about a reincarnating boar...Obviously hedonism including getting drunk are not okay in the eyes of the Lord. Unfortunately most Christians don't bother to look into this.
Isn't it strange Mormons also claim things about the gods of planets, as equal or even possibly above the Lord Almighty, ADONAI (God of the UNIVERSE)? Hmm....Seems very interrelated if you ask me. Thanks for reading, please subscribe (🤪 JK) I hope this helps someone. God bless.
💖
Wonderful analysis in addressing a few of our beliefs in regards to our perceived beliefs.
So….the Levite Priests wore “magical underwear?”
No. Nobody wears magical underwear.
The levite priests wore temple garments/robes.
They also wore tzitzits daily that reminded them of their covenants.
Latter day saints wear temple garments and robes
They also wear clothing daily that remind them of their covenants.
Yeah when I watched Cliff’s video I was laughing the whole time. They got everything so wrong. Thanks for the video David!
I used to watch and enjoy cliff. But when I saw how uneducated he was about the LDS faith, I unsubbed and clicked "don't recommend this channel".
He if is this extremely wrong about the simplist of things, I cannot trust him with greater things.
I enjoy your videos and the respectful way you respond to critics. Thanks for sharing your insights.
I’ve watched thousands of hours of AMD (antimormon doctrine) and I agree this was very very weak
I found a video where Cliffe explains the trinity as modalism, which, correct me if im wrong.
Early Christians considered that as heresy.
Mormonism fails the test of science and the test of scripture, y’all can’t see it cause you were born into it so you’re defending Joseph smith….. Matthew 24:24 the Bible tells us For there shall arise (false Christs,) and (false prophets,)
This is important because the Mormon church teaches a message that sounds so similar to Christianity, but is fundamentally a different gospel. It teaches another Christ, and that is a Christ that cannot save you. It’s a Christ that is not found in Scripture, Jesus can’t be the creator of Lucifer and be his brother at the same time, the Jesus Christ of the Word of the living God is the creator of Lucifer (not) his brother, and Jesus says in John 14:6 that He is the way, the truth, the life, and no man comes to the father except through Him.
Jesus also said in John 8:25 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
I invite you to talk to more of LDS people. We aren’t all born into it, that’s a false rumor Christians spread around.
We don’t believe Christ created Lucifer, you do.
We believe and are familiar with all the verses you have and will hereafter cite as the word of God.
We don’t believe that the Bible holds an exhaustive description of God or truth. we believe in a God that still reveals truth, about himself and his Gospel.
We believe the main points of His gospel that are of salvific importance are found in the Bible
Namely faith, repentance, baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end.
I'm not Christian so passing the test of scriptures doesn't matter to me. But the test of science it fails completely. But going back to scriptures there are seemingly hundreds of contradictions between the Bible and Mormon beliefs and teachings. The fact that the Bible says God doesn't change his mind and in the Mormon religion God changes his mind every time the times change or if it's needed to grow the church is very interesting.
Not everyone was born into the church, there are many members who joined later in life. I’ve always struggled extensively with the mass amount of denominations and which to choose. How do you actually know you’re in the correct denomination? Many are born into one and stay with it for life. (Like you’re saying happens with the LDS church) not to mention many denominations conflict very heavily with each other and even more change depending on what church you go to. I can go to a baptist church in Washington and travel to Tennessee and be taught very differently. This isn’t true for the LDS church however. I could move to a completely different country and be taught essentially the same way but I’m absolutely being taught the same ideas.
There are many verses that talk in the exact opposite way you are describing the trinity. Why would Heavenly Father be confusing and difficult to understand. Especially about something as crucial at the trinity. Why would the Bible repeatedly say that Jesus is the son of God when they are actually the same being. I don’t believe he would be that confusing and hard to understand when he represents truth and clarity. You are welcome to your own beliefs and your own perspectives but I do as well. You may not agree with me and that’s fine but for many of us members this is the church that makes sense and it’s the church that I was told by my Heavenly Father was the right church for me. I’m sure you don’t have an interest in my testimony and I’m not going to force it onto you, but it is one thing I cannot say didn’t happen nor one that didn’t come from God. I’m just trying to bring a new perspective to the conversation and hopefully we can agree to disagree. Have a wonderful day.
Very well done! I hope to see more "debunk" videos!
First girl is right, we shouldn’t “trust” Paul either. The Old Testament was not about Jesus. The messiah was not supposed to die without fulfilling. The followers of Jesus appropriated the scriptures as and created a second coming as a way to make sense of their charismatic leaders death.
So the pastor recently saw the broadway “Book of Mormon” play it seems….🤣
Someone who throws out such crass and casual terms are immediately telling me they are not ready to have a real discussion about Christianity.
Excellent channel! Some interesting parallels, very similar Devine experiences between Joseph and Joan of Arc. Joan was around 13 or so in 1425 when she received her first visions and visits from Devine personages. Joseph was 14. Both were born of humble origins and accomplished things that no person without Devine help could accomplish. Also, both eventually were martyred for their beliefs and experiences.
You're such a mensch! Thank you for doing so many good rebuttals while being kind.
This was great thanks David. I’m a fan of Cliffe but I’ve yet to see anything impressive from Stuart
When they blatantly say what they know to be wrong and use it as a selling point to harass the church.
Its not getting it wrong, its out and out lying!
I have zero respect for liars !
I do because I'm a liar!
I lie to beautiful women all the time!
Difference being, i dont lie to make people hate.
I also hope the liars get exactly the same results i do!
(Which is nowhere)😢