I agree with the portrayal of SP's as the driftwood on the ocean in general. However, some ESFP's I've encountered are haunted by the past or fearful of the future. These individuals seem to be in the grip of their inferior introverted intuition. I've noticed some who are very fearful that their past will catch up to them. Also, there are others who become very paranoid about what their future may bring and start to misinterpret innocuous things as signs of their impending doom...which ends up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
NFGeeks with Dr. Mike! I was thinking about your ESFP friend that you had mentioned before (with the middle finger photos and the double exposure fire picture) because I have a close ESFP friend who is very similar. He has this little black cloud following him all the time. He doesn't show it to everyone or very often, but from time to time he brings it out and shares it...and it's terrifying to see that it goes all the way down to the depths of his soul. He can go from being his normal happy-go-lucky self, then suddenly the temperature in the room drops and I know he's about to bring out that dark stain again. Then he'll laugh and go right back to SP funland while I'm left sitting there with a thousand yard stare.
Hiiiii, INFJ here :) I just found your channel and really enjoy your videos! I really wanted to address your talking point about S's that think they are N's! For years I was an N that considered myself S! The reason I find this so interesting is that I originally wrote off MBTI theory as bullshit because every time I tested ISFJ and I KNEW THAT WAS NOT ME. I think a lot of people mistype themselves based on what they think they SHOULD be. And for me, the grip of the inferior function Se had a lot to do with my mistyping as I've spent an inordinate amount of my life wrestling with it. I was raised in a large family (3rd child of 9) Both of my parents are S's and the S children were favored. Despite getting some praise for my intelligence (my parents tried) I never felt valued for my gifts. I still remember my 3rd grade feelings of worthlessness because I couldn't run fast or play sports like my older sister! Ouch! Learning MBTI theory has been a great way for me to understand and love myself for who I am! That being said, I now know an ISFJ who somehow mistyped herself as an INTJ! And I think she still has trouble accepting herself as an ISFJ (I tried to correct her, whoops) Its very important for her to be considered an "intellectual" it's very much a part of the identity she has created for herself to the point that I think the truth actually upset her rather than comforted her. I hope that one day people can break away from the stigma that you have to be N to be "smart" or T to be "smart" Intelligence can take shape in many forms! I admit to also hating that I wasn't a T when I first took the test and had no real understanding of the functions. So long answer short: People mistype their S/N mostly based on what they think they are supposed to be. And that could depend on a lot of things. But also inferior function experiences can play a role.
When we tell you our "complex thoughts" we want for you listeners to input your criticism to our system so we can make it better. We are exposing ourselves for you to point out whats weak and or fill in information that we miss. Cooperation is superior when done correctly :P
Sure. My input is that you're over-estimating your ability. I recommend that you consult INTJ's who are good at hitting the intellectual breaks, although any of the NT's would be useful. If you are going to consult an NF, consult an ENFJ because you will have the best possible relationship with that NF. You could also listen to INFP's, but that would be it. Specifically speaking, I don't think the INTP should do the actual typing. Do experiments. Have someone who is good at typing type someone so that you know their type (not you specifically but someone). Give your technique to someone else and see if it works on typing this person. Do this several times with others and see how many times it is right more than wrong. Shoot for above 80%. That's my feedback.
I think its clear that its the Ti-Te differance you are hinting at. Thought i wouldnt say INTPs are the worst type at typing others(we have a capacity to understand things). Also i have some self experience and what ive seen is that i tend to judge too early, we have to let ourselves study a lot more(let Si and Ne have its say) before spewing out our pre-conclusions. Basically, intps have to grow up a little. Thanks for the feedback. :)
thank you so much for your positive insights on SPs. (INFP here) my boyfriend is an ISFP and i love his ability to be in the present. it is SO refreshing and he has the wonderful ability to get me out of my head when i am overanalyzing/ruminating on something and just have fun or be more aware of the present and to let go of some of that stuff. your driftwood in the sea analogy was so spot-on and made me understand him a bit more clearly even though i "intuitively" got it, now it's more apparent of what an asset it is. looking forward to watching more of your videos, and i also understand what you mean about NFs. we probably have higher expectations of each other right? it makes sense to me even if it can cause drama. it's like we expect more out of each other when it comes to being sensitive to one another's feelings/validation but then when we aren't, fire and brimstone abounds.
It's true... we INTPs have the ability to argue very convincingly for the wrong side. We're also not as smart as we think we are. It's uncomfortable, but I'm glad this weakness was pointed out so that I can correct it.
I really liked the metaphor you used for SP's and their resilience to crisis. I Also thinks that's why they sort of "Drift" from place to place easily. NF's Are like sponges because they really soak it all in.
I just had an interesting thought about that intp typing thing. Perhaps the strength of intps lie in their ability to create new ideas, connecting preexisting ideas, or using old ideas in new ways, instead of understanding the complex and already well developed ideas of others. I think evidence of this would be in how intps generally do worse in school than other nt types. They can of course learn well developed ideas eventually, but I think the amount of experience with a subject required to fully grasp it's concepts is high. This might lead to a false sense of confidence in the subject material; just because you have spent large amounts of time learning about something (even if it is more than others) doesn't necessarily mean you can apply it well. From personal experience, I often had quite a lot of trouble with college level math (calc 1,2,3 ect). Eventually I realized that this was because I had such a hard time accepting given facts as true (1+1 = 2 as an exaggerated example). In order to be able to use these basic tools of math comfortably, I had to understand them inside and out. In essence I had to completely reinvent a concept in my mind before I could use it like other students in my classes could. However, if I truly understood a concept I would be able to use it in ways plenty of my classmates would be bewildered with. This process of reinvention of ideas was incredibly difficult with math, and I presume it would quite difficult with MBTI as well. If the only goal with MBTI was typing people, I think INTPs have a bit of a hard time. But they probably bring a lot to the table in other ways. Just some food for thought.
as an ENFP this is all really cool and even tho, like you said it can come off as negative, everyone has so much to learn from this amazing video! i guess its because your an enfp too...but a lot of times i feel like nf's are not represented enough and a lot of times because i like to talk about feelings with people they call me name or I feel scared that they will so I look anti social when I'm actually really a people person and only my close friends will know what I'm talking about. So most of the time I will be shy because I am scared that people will not like who I am. When I...(this is gonna sound funny)THINK about it I have a balancing to make. By watching another enfp who is also more confident and well rounded than me and also more understanding of others, I get the sense that you are really an awesome role model for me as a young emotional enfp(heeh :D) Your the ultimate enfp the reason they call us "champions" i mean we cant all be champions by nature but we have what it takes to be inspirational like you. I'm learning so much from NF geeks and I felt the intense need to tell you how great this huge thing really is. I know that you know it but I also feel like I need to say it. validation of feelings like you say that always comes up its so so true...so to sum it up with a simple THANK YOU SO MUCH!
I just realized why INTJ's are so much better at typing than INTP's. It's a matter of understanding and empathy. INTJ's, while intolerant and sometimes belligerent, can understand how other people operate but INTP's despite their openness and tolerance cannot in spite of their best efforts understand other people.
omg! what Mike says about my little sister (an INTP) is just soooo very true. she has wrong evaluation of people and it sucks when i rant to her about things because i feel that she's only thinking logically and totally being emotionally detached (that it often led her to come out as insensitive); but being the ENFP sister that i am, i make up excuses for her as she being able to see the good in everybody and hates drama and confrontation. its okay though, i got myself my own ENFJ boyfriend as my personal therapist and i can just go rant and rave to him all i want :)
I agree about INTPs and mistyping people. I am an Infp with some intp traits so when i was younger I used to use my own form of probability to predict human's behaviour of course not taking into account the emotional variables. Now I use NF much more.
I'm an INTP, I'm not really knowledgeable about the whole mbti system, but I see why would INTPs could be worst in typing. I agree that we tend to overestimate our rationality (or rationality in general), which can strip us of our so valued objectivity.
NFs will bail. So true. My INFP dad who swears by his steadfastness and loyalty as chief defining characteristics requested a divorce from my ISFJ mom, who would have gone along in the traces (of discontent, admittedly) ad infinitum. It was a very civilized divorce, yet they resent the hell out of each other to this day and neither has remarried. INFP dad states that "he will never change" (but he has...and that's normal...humans are supposed to grow and change for God's sake!) As for me, an INFJ, I think the idea of eternal devotion sounds great, but let's also add a touch, a hint, a smidgen, an iota, just a little bit in other words, of realism. Please.
intp here Personally I have to admit that I do a horrible job in typing people. I even have a hard time pinning down the type of my own family members.I have to say that I doubt myself all the time. I have really bad self esteem though. A self hating intp, I am not really sure how common that is. I have to say one thing that I have noticed about myself when talking online about certain things. I tend to argue in a rigorous way in favor of ideas that I am quite unsure about. I have found it a great way to obtain knowledge. Putting an idea through the hellfire of online debate is a good way to see if it holds up. And note, arguing for this idea with rigor and intensity is important, an insincerely supported idea will fall to any argument no matter the content. However, I have noticed that this method leads to tons of problems. People just take it the worst way possible sometimes. Forever your reputation is ruined because you argued for something that others think is wrong. Ideas are such temporal things in my mind, but forever I am married to them in the eyes of internet citizens. Over time I have found arguing like this to just not be worth it. I either must become a pure observer of goings on in the internet, or I must put all sorts of qualifying sentences into whatever it is I am putting forth (ex: this is just my ideas, what do you think XD XD) and ruin the rigor of the argument. One other thing, if I actually knew 100% of everything about MBTI I would completely lose interest in it, and would never participate in discussion online (or even type people in the first place) ever again. Take that as you will.
I often find ntp typings questionable as well. I think it has to do with, as you say, the application of their system. They are not good at looking at the facts and saying, "this explains what I'm talking about," because often their theories are based on logical consistency, not largely on facts. I've seen them rationalize their typings once they have them as well. They can explain away any kind of misalignment between the person and the type they've decided, and since it is easy for them to do this, they end up sticking with the worse typing, instead of choosing a better suited type for the person. Nice insight.
I see what you're saying about some INTP people being more engaged with the process than the outcome regarding typing. On a related note, I've found that NP types (and particularly INTPs) tend to think that NJ types are actually SJ, and I chuckled a bit to myself when you mentioned you think there are some NJ types on the forum who are "really" SJ types. I'm not sure what the explanation for this pattern is, but I would guess that there is some sort of mistaking Perceiving for Intuition (and thus Judging for Sensation). It would be interesting to hear if anyone else has seen similar things.
As an INTP who has done that, I'm only just becoming aware that I cannot type people well. I've been on the forums, I am guilty. I might not admit this on the forums. What I do is I end up putting a model between me and the person, and my skill actually goes down the more I get into the theory, but in the beginning I start out with a small moment of pure empathy(to me). Possible cause for overestimation of skill.
As an INTP I attempted to type a lot of people. Out of about 10 I was only right once. I didn't tell them what I guessed, it was just sort of a game I had going on in my head. Since I had such poor results with this. I just recommend for people to take the test itself.
Don't forget about inaccuracies in some of the inventories. There's a reason I trust my own judgement over that of the free inventories, be it a conceptual basis or experiential basis.
As an intp I have to agree with the notion that we are bad at typing people. For me this extends to making judgements in general; I tend to fall into mad cycles of questioning everything thus never drawing any conclusions. Even when I do manage to make a decision I'm often not very confident in it. Anyone else experience this or something similar?
I agree with the portrayal of SP's as the driftwood on the ocean in general. However, some ESFP's I've encountered are haunted by the past or fearful of the future. These individuals seem to be in the grip of their inferior introverted intuition. I've noticed some who are very fearful that their past will catch up to them. Also, there are others who become very paranoid about what their future may bring and start to misinterpret innocuous things as signs of their impending doom...which ends up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I agree. I have seen that with ESFP's in my personal life, exactly as you have described it.
NFGeeks with Dr. Mike! I was thinking about your ESFP friend that you had mentioned before (with the middle finger photos and the double exposure fire picture) because I have a close ESFP friend who is very similar.
He has this little black cloud following him all the time. He doesn't show it to everyone or very often, but from time to time he brings it out and shares it...and it's terrifying to see that it goes all the way down to the depths of his soul.
He can go from being his normal happy-go-lucky self, then suddenly the temperature in the room drops and I know he's about to bring out that dark stain again. Then he'll laugh and go right back to SP funland while I'm left sitting there with a thousand yard stare.
Hiiiii, INFJ here :) I just found your channel and really enjoy your videos! I really wanted to address your talking point about S's that think they are N's! For years I was an N that considered myself S! The reason I find this so interesting is that I originally wrote off MBTI theory as bullshit because every time I tested ISFJ and I KNEW THAT WAS NOT ME. I think a lot of people mistype themselves based on what they think they SHOULD be. And for me, the grip of the inferior function Se had a lot to do with my mistyping as I've spent an inordinate amount of my life wrestling with it. I was raised in a large family (3rd child of 9) Both of my parents are S's and the S children were favored. Despite getting some praise for my intelligence (my parents tried) I never felt valued for my gifts. I still remember my 3rd grade feelings of worthlessness because I couldn't run fast or play sports like my older sister! Ouch!
Learning MBTI theory has been a great way for me to understand and love myself for who I am!
That being said, I now know an ISFJ who somehow mistyped herself as an INTJ! And I think she still has trouble accepting herself as an ISFJ (I tried to correct her, whoops) Its very important for her to be considered an "intellectual" it's very much a part of the identity she has created for herself to the point that I think the truth actually upset her rather than comforted her. I hope that one day people can break away from the stigma that you have to be N to be "smart" or T to be "smart" Intelligence can take shape in many forms! I admit to also hating that I wasn't a T when I first took the test and had no real understanding of the functions.
So long answer short: People mistype their S/N mostly based on what they think they are supposed to be. And that could depend on a lot of things. But also inferior function experiences can play a role.
When we tell you our "complex thoughts" we want for you listeners to input your criticism to our system so we can make it better. We are exposing ourselves for you to point out whats weak and or fill in information that we miss. Cooperation is superior when done correctly :P
Sure. My input is that you're over-estimating your ability. I recommend that you consult INTJ's who are good at hitting the intellectual breaks, although any of the NT's would be useful. If you are going to consult an NF, consult an ENFJ because you will have the best possible relationship with that NF. You could also listen to INFP's, but that would be it. Specifically speaking, I don't think the INTP should do the actual typing. Do experiments. Have someone who is good at typing type someone so that you know their type (not you specifically but someone). Give your technique to someone else and see if it works on typing this person. Do this several times with others and see how many times it is right more than wrong. Shoot for above 80%. That's my feedback.
I think its clear that its the Ti-Te differance you are hinting at. Thought i wouldnt say INTPs are the worst type at typing others(we have a capacity to understand things). Also i have some self experience and what ive seen is that i tend to judge too early, we have to let ourselves study a lot more(let Si and Ne have its say) before spewing out our pre-conclusions. Basically, intps have to grow up a little. Thanks for the feedback. :)
omg, that's why I love INTPS, thank you.. thanks :)
thank you so much for your positive insights on SPs. (INFP here) my boyfriend is an ISFP and i love his ability to be in the present. it is SO refreshing and he has the wonderful ability to get me out of my head when i am overanalyzing/ruminating on something and just have fun or be more aware of the present and to let go of some of that stuff. your driftwood in the sea analogy was so spot-on and made me understand him a bit more clearly even though i "intuitively" got it, now it's more apparent of what an asset it is. looking forward to watching more of your videos, and i also understand what you mean about NFs. we probably have higher expectations of each other right? it makes sense to me even if it can cause drama. it's like we expect more out of each other when it comes to being sensitive to one another's feelings/validation but then when we aren't, fire and brimstone abounds.
It's true... we INTPs have the ability to argue very convincingly for the wrong side. We're also not as smart as we think we are. It's uncomfortable, but I'm glad this weakness was pointed out so that I can correct it.
Brother is an INTJ. Older sister is an ENFP. Her daughter is INFP. My youngest daughter is ISFP.
I really liked the metaphor you used for SP's and their resilience to crisis. I Also thinks that's why they sort of "Drift" from place to place easily. NF's Are like sponges because they really soak it all in.
I just had an interesting thought about that intp typing thing. Perhaps the strength of intps lie in their ability to create new ideas, connecting preexisting ideas, or using old ideas in new ways, instead of understanding the complex and already well developed ideas of others. I think evidence of this would be in how intps generally do worse in school than other nt types.
They can of course learn well developed ideas eventually, but I think the amount of experience with a subject required to fully grasp it's concepts is high. This might lead to a false sense of confidence in the subject material; just because you have spent large amounts of time learning about something (even if it is more than others) doesn't necessarily mean you can apply it well.
From personal experience, I often had quite a lot of trouble with college level math (calc 1,2,3 ect). Eventually I realized that this was because I had such a hard time accepting given facts as true (1+1 = 2 as an exaggerated example). In order to be able to use these basic tools of math comfortably, I had to understand them inside and out. In essence I had to completely reinvent a concept in my mind before I could use it like other students in my classes could. However, if I truly understood a concept I would be able to use it in ways plenty of my classmates would be bewildered with.
This process of reinvention of ideas was incredibly difficult with math, and I presume it would quite difficult with MBTI as well. If the only goal with MBTI was typing people, I think INTPs have a bit of a hard time. But they probably bring a lot to the table in other ways.
Just some food for thought.
as an ENFP this is all really cool and even tho, like you said it can come off as negative, everyone has so much to learn from this amazing video! i guess its because your an enfp too...but a lot of times i feel like nf's are not represented enough and a lot of times because i like to talk about feelings with people they call me name or I feel scared that they will so I look anti social when I'm actually really a people person and only my close friends will know what I'm talking about. So most of the time I will be shy because I am scared that people will not like who I am. When I...(this is gonna sound funny)THINK about it I have a balancing to make. By watching another enfp who is also more confident and well rounded than me and also more understanding of others, I get the sense that you are really an awesome role model for me as a young emotional enfp(heeh :D) Your the ultimate enfp the reason they call us "champions" i mean we cant all be champions by nature but we have what it takes to be inspirational like you. I'm learning so much from NF geeks and I felt the intense need to tell you how great this huge thing really is. I know that you know it but I also feel like I need to say it. validation of feelings like you say that always comes up its so so true...so to sum it up with a simple THANK YOU SO MUCH!
I just realized why INTJ's are so much better at typing than INTP's. It's a matter of understanding and empathy. INTJ's, while intolerant and sometimes belligerent, can understand how other people operate but INTP's despite their openness and tolerance cannot in spite of their best efforts understand other people.
+2 Hilarious
omg! what Mike says about my little sister (an INTP) is just soooo very true. she has wrong evaluation of people and it sucks when i rant to her about things because i feel that she's only thinking logically and totally being emotionally detached (that it often led her to come out as insensitive); but being the ENFP sister that i am, i make up excuses for her as she being able to see the good in everybody and hates drama and confrontation. its okay though, i got myself my own ENFJ boyfriend as my personal therapist and i can just go rant and rave to him all i want :)
I agree about INTPs and mistyping people. I am an Infp with some intp traits so when i was younger I used to use my own form of probability to predict human's behaviour of course not taking into account the emotional variables. Now I use NF much more.
I'm an INTP, I'm not really knowledgeable about the whole mbti system, but I see why would INTPs could be worst in typing. I agree that we tend to overestimate our rationality (or rationality in general), which can strip us of our so valued objectivity.
NFs will bail. So true. My INFP dad who swears by his steadfastness and loyalty as chief defining characteristics requested a divorce from my ISFJ mom, who would have gone along in the traces (of discontent, admittedly) ad infinitum. It was a very civilized divorce, yet they resent the hell out of each other to this day and neither has remarried. INFP dad states that "he will never change" (but he has...and that's normal...humans are supposed to grow and change for God's sake!) As for me, an INFJ, I think the idea of eternal devotion sounds great, but let's also add a touch, a hint, a smidgen, an iota, just a little bit in other words, of realism. Please.
intp here
Personally I have to admit that I do a horrible job in typing people. I even have a hard time pinning down the type of my own family members.I have to say that I doubt myself all the time. I have really bad self esteem though. A self hating intp, I am not really sure how common that is.
I have to say one thing that I have noticed about myself when talking online about certain things. I tend to argue in a rigorous way in favor of ideas that I am quite unsure about. I have found it a great way to obtain knowledge. Putting an idea through the hellfire of online debate is a good way to see if it holds up. And note, arguing for this idea with rigor and intensity is important, an insincerely supported idea will fall to any argument no matter the content.
However, I have noticed that this method leads to tons of problems. People just take it the worst way possible sometimes. Forever your reputation is ruined because you argued for something that others think is wrong. Ideas are such temporal things in my mind, but forever I am married to them in the eyes of internet citizens.
Over time I have found arguing like this to just not be worth it. I either must become a pure observer of goings on in the internet, or I must put all sorts of qualifying sentences into whatever it is I am putting forth (ex: this is just my ideas, what do you think XD XD) and ruin the rigor of the argument.
One other thing, if I actually knew 100% of everything about MBTI I would completely lose interest in it, and would never participate in discussion online (or even type people in the first place) ever again. Take that as you will.
Dr Mike @ 22:00 I suspect you are drunk b/c I am too!
I often find ntp typings questionable as well. I think it has to do with, as you say, the application of their system. They are not good at looking at the facts and saying, "this explains what I'm talking about," because often their theories are based on logical consistency, not largely on facts.
I've seen them rationalize their typings once they have them as well. They can explain away any kind of misalignment between the person and the type they've decided, and since it is easy for them to do this, they end up sticking with the worse typing, instead of choosing a better suited type for the person.
Nice insight.
I see what you're saying about some INTP people being more engaged with the process than the outcome regarding typing.
On a related note, I've found that NP types (and particularly INTPs) tend to think that NJ types are actually SJ, and I chuckled a bit to myself when you mentioned you think there are some NJ types on the forum who are "really" SJ types. I'm not sure what the explanation for this pattern is, but I would guess that there is some sort of mistaking Perceiving for Intuition (and thus Judging for Sensation).
It would be interesting to hear if anyone else has seen similar things.
As an INTP who has done that, I'm only just becoming aware that I cannot type people well. I've been on the forums, I am guilty. I might not admit this on the forums.
What I do is I end up putting a model between me and the person, and my skill actually goes down the more I get into the theory, but in the beginning I start out with a small moment of pure empathy(to me). Possible cause for overestimation of skill.
As an INTP I attempted to type a lot of people. Out of about 10 I was only right once. I didn't tell them what I guessed, it was just sort of a game I had going on in my head.
Since I had such poor results with this. I just recommend for people to take the test itself.
Don't forget about inaccuracies in some of the inventories. There's a reason I trust my own judgement over that of the free inventories, be it a conceptual basis or experiential basis.
I'm on the Facebook forum and I'm an ISTJ, so you have at least one SJ.
As an INFJ, I don't find that I "bitch" about NF' more than other types. The bitching is equally distrbuted. Great.
I'm always changing my typing of people on a basis of trial and error. Would this be indicative of me being an INTJ or INTP?
As an intp I have to agree with the notion that we are bad at typing people. For me this extends to making judgements in general; I tend to fall into mad cycles of questioning everything thus never drawing any conclusions. Even when I do manage to make a decision I'm often not very confident in it. Anyone else experience this or something similar?
Story of my life.
INTP?
Yep.