I think it's really important to note that Williams was also dealing with the early stages of Parkinson's. He used exercise and cycling to help manage his depression and anxiety and was facing a future where that wouldn't be possible, plus battling with addiction. As someone with a similar coping strategy (exercise), who has seen the degenerative effects of Parkinson's, I can honestly say that I would be tempted to take the same route in his situation. The last years of his life would have been miserable, and I'm glad he's not facing that pain anymore.
I think you did an amazing job on this video Dr. Mike! Specifically, of talking about suicide and our feelings of grief over Robin's death, but not necessarily agreeing with his choice to end his life. My heart goes out to him and his family. Also, I am an ENFJ and I still agree with your view points on morality and suicide. =P
Loved Good Will Hunting and Dead Poets Society as well. They are among my favorite movies. And I loved that thing you said about NFGeeks being somehow a Dead Poets Society form!
Very interesting you mention X generation growing up with him because I feel that way as well being a Y Generation in early 90's... seeing his movies was part of my childhood too. Being part of someone's childhood... there's something very special and honourable in that. I'll always have warm feelings like an uncle towards him. Aladdin is also my favourite Disney movie.
I was starting to get put off when you talked about the morality of suicide. But you actually brought it around quite well. I completely agree that the ethics of his actions don't need to have anything to do with the level of sympathy and empathy that we have for him. I do see how many types would have a lot of conflict there though. I'm actually surprised at how upsetting I have found his death to be. Maybe it's the fellow ENFP thing... Great video Mike, thanks.
Great video! “I sound my barbaric yawp over the rooftops of the world.” ~Walt Whitman McAllister: "Show me the heart unfettered by foolish dreams and I'll show you a happy man." John Keating: "But only in their dreams can men be truly free. 'Twas always thus, and always thus will be." McAllister: Tennyson? John Keating: No, Keating. John Keating: No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
Welcome back Mike :) Any chance you could provide a definition of morality? I got a sense it was framed around utilitarian philosophy, (_Tho I'm fairly ignorant of the subject_). That Being said, is the moral worth's of an action, able to be accumulated in a sort of "Holistic Moral Ledger"? [Were bad can nullify good , in the sense of either erase it or counter-balance it]
-Depression is real and serious, and can indeed lead to suicide. -Suicide in virtually all cases is immoral. -The above statements are not mutually exclusive. I've thought the same! This INTP agrees!
It's strange how affected people have been by his death, at first I was really shocked and then when I woke up the next day I felt genuinely sad that he was gone and that hasn't happened for me since Princess Di's death but that was only cos it was a tragic accident an she was so young and in the public eye constantly but I never really felt sad about it just shocked, while Robin's death felt like more of a loss, if only he could have known how much he'd be missed. They've just shown Good Will Hunting on the BBC here in the UK so sad, I loved Mork & Mindy, Mrs Doubtfire and Dead Poets Society
If it was suicide like they say, I don't see how that's immoral. It's his life. Our lives are our own. It can be moral and not a good choice. I don't think it's a positive idea, a good choice and all but.. Robin Williams doesn't owe anyone his life. That would be to say his life isn't his.. that is basically a guilt based morality He didn't write a contract with everyone that he has to live forever.. He was going to die in 20-30 years anyway, there's a moral principle that holding on for everyone as long as possible is the noblest thing ever? Far-fetched
And plus that it "hurts others" is a false attribution. We all preside over our own emotions. His death didn't "cause" others to suffer. Yes, when he died people was very saddened. But we're not responsible for what other people feel, we don't own their feelings and thoughts. Just like I can't control what you think or feel towards me Dr. Mike. I can act in ways and then you may feel various ways about it. But if I did something and then you become sad it isn't accurate that I "caused" you sadness because your sadness is yours.
Matthew Alistair ..not saying we should do things that might lead to others feeling sad in themselves, in fact we should try not to. But we don't "make" others sad.
I can see that people see think you look like Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting. Perhaps you could talk about how the different personality types look at death? I know I handle it a lot differently than my siblings and I would guess different personality types handle it differently.
Mike, I don't think anyone has the right to say suicide is morally wrong. I think it's a personal choice and I don't understand people's need to judge it. No one knows the kind of pain he was in and what he had to endure. I have dealt with depression as well and I can tell you it's really dark. Were any of those people that are judging him there to see if first hand what it's like? Did they walk in his shoes? So to me it's like saying -You have a debt to society to stay alive even though you are miserable and in pain and life is unbearable. Like the guy under me said, he didn't have a contract saying he had an obligation to stay alive. I think people would be more emphatic if they had been through that. I was always under the impression that corporations were the ones afraid of suicide because people mean money to them, seeing they are seen as consumers. But it pains me to see even other NF's saying it's a morally wrong act.
Bee V I think you are not seeing the impact properly. Through this action many were needless hurt. Your own suffering does not justify an action that hurts others. It is not a debt as much as it is a responsibility to people in your life who love. I think you are over identifying with the depression and its impact on others. His children are devastated. How is that morally justified?
Mike, I m of the opinion that this is not so black and white, as most moral dilemmas. These are merely personal opinions, right? I remember learning in my contemporary moral problems class that one way of looking at it is to weigh the suffering it caused in other people versus the pain he was suffering. If he caused more pain then he was going through then maybe one could argue that it was an immoral decision. But no one knows, except them. His children were grown, weren't they? I know that if my parent was in immense pain and decided to take that path I would hurt immensely, but I would never blame the or call them selfish. Maybe he is better off now. I would't want him to keep living in pain.
It is not a judgment of him it is a judgment of the choice, the action, and the consequences. Being depressed doesn't give one a license to hurt themselves or others. It is understandable as to how someone can get like that but it is an irrational, selfish choice. No one is better off and everyone is hurt. How can that be a good choice? It can't. I have no judgment against Robin Williams...it's tragic. But the act of suicide hurt people and there is no upside. That, by definition, makes it wrong.
However, having said I can somewhat see your point. There is no greater good that comes out of suicide but I think at the moment he was not in his right mind and couldn't see things clearly.
Robin Williams died struggling with Lewy body disease, which caused extensive brain damage. However, it wasn't widely known until 2016, when his wife wrote about it publicly. So while these discussions are interesting, they're actually moot. Robin's capacity for moral actions, as those without a brain damaging disease might judge them, was severely impaired.
I agree with M. It's really easy for others to judge when they have no clue how they felt. I just love when people with no personal experience and nothing but opinions. So I guess it is morally ok for this guy to judge him?! It crushed me when he died and I couldn't watch any of his stuff for quite sometime because I could see his pain. I am 49 and have had a lifetime of Narcissists, Sociopaths and a handful of Psychopaths use, abuse and attempts to completely destroy me. I have been suicidal for as long as I can remember. Mother was molested by her pedephilic father who later molested me. My dad is a sick Narc who just loves gaslighting my daughter and myself like he did my mother. My daughter married one just like my dad and his mother is a sick jealous Psychopath that has tried to get me fired. I have been nothing but kind, caring and considerate. My body is starting to go. I have no one to help me when I can't work anymore. If there is anything I want to be in control of, it's going to be my death. You have no right but to pass moral judgements on yourself. They sure the fuck broke the mold after me....Bruised and Battered HSP, Empathic, Gemini, Monkey, INFJ. Take my word for it, I'm fucked all the way around. In recovery the definition of insanity is attempting the same thing over and over and expecting a different results. Well the only thing I can do other than be my natural loving and caring self is to clam up and look like an angry anti social bitch and I end up fucked there too. People like you really cut right through me and piss me off so bad. I hope you experience my whole life your next trip around-you wouldn't have made it this far.
I think it's really important to note that Williams was also dealing with the early stages of Parkinson's. He used exercise and cycling to help manage his depression and anxiety and was facing a future where that wouldn't be possible, plus battling with addiction. As someone with a similar coping strategy (exercise), who has seen the degenerative effects of Parkinson's, I can honestly say that I would be tempted to take the same route in his situation. The last years of his life would have been miserable, and I'm glad he's not facing that pain anymore.
It's his life, his pain in his own physical body/mind); l woudn't fault him for thinking for (and prioritizing) himself in that case. (INFJ)
Dr. Mike! Why do you not do videos anymore?? We miss you! Hope you are well!
Great to see you making videos again Mike! - Shruti
"We're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it." - #RobinWilliams
I think you did an amazing job on this video Dr. Mike! Specifically, of talking about suicide and our feelings of grief over Robin's death, but not necessarily agreeing with his choice to end his life. My heart goes out to him and his family. Also, I am an ENFJ and I still agree with your view points on morality and suicide. =P
Loved Good Will Hunting and Dead Poets Society as well. They are among my favorite movies. And I loved that thing you said about NFGeeks being somehow a Dead Poets Society form!
Very interesting you mention X generation growing up with him because I feel that way as well being a Y Generation in early 90's... seeing his movies was part of my childhood too. Being part of someone's childhood... there's something very special and honourable in that. I'll always have warm feelings like an uncle towards him. Aladdin is also my favourite Disney movie.
I was starting to get put off when you talked about the morality of suicide. But you actually brought it around quite well. I completely agree that the ethics of his actions don't need to have anything to do with the level of sympathy and empathy that we have for him. I do see how many types would have a lot of conflict there though. I'm actually surprised at how upsetting I have found his death to be. Maybe it's the fellow ENFP thing... Great video Mike, thanks.
"The police said it was suicide so we know for sure it was." said no introvert intuitive ever.
Great video!
“I sound my barbaric yawp over the rooftops of the world.” ~Walt Whitman
McAllister: "Show me the heart unfettered by foolish dreams and I'll show you a happy man."
John Keating: "But only in their dreams can men be truly free. 'Twas always thus, and always thus will be."
McAllister: Tennyson?
John Keating: No, Keating.
John Keating: No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
He was very cool ESFJ. ESFJ males.. very diverse.
Anyone know where Dr. Mike is these days?
He is still there, on another video he replied to the question a few weeks ago about if he was going to do more vids and he replied "Someday...maybe."
Welcome back Mike :)
Any chance you could provide a definition of morality?
I got a sense it was framed around utilitarian philosophy, (_Tho I'm fairly ignorant of the subject_).
That Being said, is the moral worth's of an action, able to be accumulated in a sort of "Holistic Moral Ledger"?
[Were bad can nullify good , in the sense of either erase it or counter-balance it]
-Depression is real and serious, and can indeed lead to suicide.
-Suicide in virtually all cases is immoral.
-The above statements are not mutually exclusive.
I've thought the same! This INTP agrees!
It's strange how affected people have been by his death, at first I was really shocked and then when I woke up the next day I felt genuinely sad that he was gone and that hasn't happened for me since Princess Di's death but that was only cos it was a tragic accident an she was so young and in the public eye constantly but I never really felt sad about it just shocked, while Robin's death felt like more of a loss, if only he could have known how much he'd be missed. They've just shown Good Will Hunting on the BBC here in the UK so sad, I loved Mork & Mindy, Mrs Doubtfire and Dead Poets Society
If it was suicide like they say, I don't see how that's immoral. It's his life. Our lives are our own. It can be moral and not a good choice. I don't think it's a positive idea, a good choice and all but.. Robin Williams doesn't owe anyone his life. That would be to say his life isn't his.. that is basically a guilt based morality He didn't write a contract with everyone that he has to live forever.. He was going to die in 20-30 years anyway, there's a moral principle that holding on for everyone as long as possible is the noblest thing ever? Far-fetched
And plus that it "hurts others" is a false attribution. We all preside over our own emotions. His death didn't "cause" others to suffer. Yes, when he died people was very saddened. But we're not responsible for what other people feel, we don't own their feelings and thoughts. Just like I can't control what you think or feel towards me Dr. Mike. I can act in ways and then you may feel various ways about it. But if I did something and then you become sad it isn't accurate that I "caused" you sadness because your sadness is yours.
Matthew Alistair
..not saying we should do things that might lead to others feeling sad in themselves, in fact we should try not to. But we don't "make" others sad.
I can see that people see think you look like Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting. Perhaps you could talk about how the different personality types look at death? I know I handle it a lot differently than my siblings and I would guess different personality types handle it differently.
Mike, I don't think anyone has the right to say suicide is morally wrong. I think it's a personal choice and I don't understand people's need to judge it. No one knows the kind of pain he was in and what he had to endure. I have dealt with depression as well and I can tell you it's really dark. Were any of those people that are judging him there to see if first hand what it's like? Did they walk in his shoes? So to me it's like saying -You have a debt to society to stay alive even though you are miserable and in pain and life is unbearable. Like the guy under me said, he didn't have a contract saying he had an obligation to stay alive. I think people would be more emphatic if they had been through that. I was always under the impression that corporations were the ones afraid of suicide because people mean money to them, seeing they are seen as consumers. But it pains me to see even other NF's saying it's a morally wrong act.
Bee V I think you are not seeing the impact properly. Through this action many were needless hurt. Your own suffering does not justify an action that hurts others. It is not a debt as much as it is a responsibility to people in your life who love. I think you are over identifying with the depression and its impact on others. His children are devastated. How is that morally justified?
Mike, I m of the opinion that this is not so black and white, as most moral dilemmas. These are merely personal opinions, right? I remember learning in my contemporary moral problems class that one way of looking at it is to weigh the suffering it caused in other people versus the pain he was suffering. If he caused more pain then he was going through then maybe one could argue that it was an immoral decision. But no one knows, except them. His children were grown, weren't they? I know that if my parent was in immense pain and decided to take that path I would hurt immensely, but I would never blame the or call them selfish. Maybe he is better off now. I would't want him to keep living in pain.
My point is. I don't think it's up to anyone to judge him.
It is not a judgment of him it is a judgment of the choice, the action, and the consequences. Being depressed doesn't give one a license to hurt themselves or others. It is understandable as to how someone can get like that but it is an irrational, selfish choice. No one is better off and everyone is hurt. How can that be a good choice? It can't. I have no judgment against Robin Williams...it's tragic. But the act of suicide hurt people and there is no upside. That, by definition, makes it wrong.
However, having said I can somewhat see your point. There is no greater good that comes out of suicide but I think at the moment he was not in his right mind and couldn't see things clearly.
Robin Williams died struggling with Lewy body disease, which caused extensive brain damage. However, it wasn't widely known until 2016, when his wife wrote about it publicly. So while these discussions are interesting, they're actually moot. Robin's capacity for moral actions, as those without a brain damaging disease might judge them, was severely impaired.
I agree with M. It's really easy for others to judge when they have no clue how they felt. I just love when people with no personal experience and nothing but opinions. So I guess it is morally ok for this guy to judge him?!
It crushed me when he died and I couldn't watch any of his stuff for quite sometime because I could see his pain. I am 49 and have had a lifetime of Narcissists, Sociopaths and a handful of Psychopaths use, abuse and attempts to completely destroy me. I have been suicidal for as long as I can remember. Mother was molested by her pedephilic father who later molested me. My dad is a sick Narc who just loves gaslighting my daughter and myself like he did my mother. My daughter married one just like my dad and his mother is a sick jealous Psychopath that has tried to get me fired. I have been nothing but kind, caring and considerate. My body is starting to go. I have no one to help me when I can't work anymore. If there is anything I want to be in control of, it's going to be my death. You have no right but to pass moral judgements on yourself.
They sure the fuck broke the mold after me....Bruised and Battered HSP, Empathic, Gemini, Monkey, INFJ.
Take my word for it, I'm fucked all the way around.
In recovery the definition of insanity is attempting the same thing over and over and expecting a different results. Well the only thing I can do other than be my natural loving and caring self is to clam up and look like an angry anti social bitch and I end up fucked there too.
People like you really cut right through me and piss me off so bad. I hope you experience my whole life your next trip around-you wouldn't have made it this far.
Going on living (when you don't want to) just so others don't have to suffer is kind of selfish on ''the others'' part.
I type Robin Williams as a SP rather than an NF.
*EPIC* beard btw
lindsay. miley. bieber. those are contemporaries of people born after the 90s